/lit/ - Literature

>>20230819
Take the Spiritistpill anon

>>20230819
Take the Swedenborgpill anon

>>20230821
I only glanced the overview but idk man, this seems like yet another attempt to try framing Jesus and Christianity as meaningful. I see this with existentialist Christians when they say god is the ground-of-being or something — it’s just redefining the same old things to try making them relevant outside of their own circular worldview.

>>20230819
Take the Orgonepill anon

>>20230819
>I just tried giving Christianity a fair shot
What did you do?

Do you deny man is in a fallen state?

I have serious doubts you gave it a "fair shot". If you start by lying to yourself you will ngmi. It seems that you are more interested in 'thinking for yourself' than accepting what is correct.

>>20230819
Take the Neoplatonistpill anon

>>20230819
Take the KashmirShaivapill anon

>>20230819
Take the neurotheologypill anon

>>20230819
As the Lord Christ said to his disciples, only those with eyes will see. Your time has not yet come.

>>20230819
>he hasn't read the Old Testament

>>20230819
Take Rosicrucianpill anon

>>20230819

>I just tried giving Christianity a fair shot
>The whole redemption for sin is obviously just made-up
>basing anything on scripture as if it has any iota of truth is nonsensical

Scripture is the history of God's relationship with man, from the creation of the world up until the incarnation of Christ.

If you chose to reject that history, and try to make sense of Christianity without accepting it, then no wonder you think it's retarded. You're judging Christianity based on your own retarded made up ideas about what Christianity is, instead of what it actually is.

And what Christianity actually is, is the living continuation of that relationship with God, complete with miracles and deified Saints, up till this present day. That's Orthodox Christianity - the other breakoffs from it, like the hundreds of flavours of Protestantism, are disconnected from that living continuation.

If you had even a shred of honesty in you, you would know that you're not giving it a fair shot if you're not even trying to understand the Christian worldview on its own terms, or trying to see how it has been continued up until this present day.

>>20230819
Take the GermanIdealismpill anon

Take the Christianity as mystical fact pill anon

>>20230888
Oooooooooohhhhhhh I just jizzed

>>20230843
Why is man in a fallen state? Because according to ancient Hebrew mythology the first man and women were convinced by a sepent to take a bite of forbidden fruit? Even if the Edenic story is meant to be allegory, the story isn't necessary for any meaningful observation of man or reality.

If a myth or fable has a meaningful truth in it, that myth or fable isn't necessary for that that truth to be true, it's just a way of expressing it. And the story doesn't need to have actually happened for that allegorical truth to be meaningful.

>>20230893
In my pants

>>20230843
And how is there any grounds that the Bible is correct? How it is correct - because it is divinely inspired? It is only divinely inspired because the Bible says it is. It's a circle.

>>20230903
>How it is correct
It was written by the Hebrews.

What are you, an anti-semite?

>>20230843
>I have serious doubts you gave it a "fair shot". If you start by lying to yourself you will ngmi. It seems that you are more interested in 'thinking for yourself' than accepting what is correct.

Why do you doubt him? This is what our Lord said would occur.
> "The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful."

>>20230903
No its divinely inspired because the Catholic Tradition says it's divinely inspired

>>20230843
>than accepting what is correct
all problems with christianity occur because of these words

>>20230903
How is it incorrect? If you can present a single saying of the Lord Jesus that is false, or imperfect, I will accept what you say as true.

>>20230882
How is scripture the history of god's relationship with man? It's only because it claims to be so and people who believe that claim affirm it. That's all.

And I've engaged with Eastern Orthodoxy for over four years now. I was a catechumen for a long time. But I could not get past the fact that all of this stuff is clearly made up and only buttressed upon itself.

Example: all the messianic prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ were simply invented by taking passages of the Old Testament scripture and making up things that Christ did in order to fulfill them.

>>20230924
But your exact argument could just as easily be used against you.

It is only false because you claim it is false and people who do not claim it affirm you.

>>20230882
>If you had even a shred of honesty in you, you would know that you're not giving it a fair shot if you're not even trying to understand the Christian worldview on its own terms, or trying to see how it has been continued up until this present day.

And this is all I've been trying to do. But all it takes is one step back to see that it's all made up. I'm not trying to lambast Christianity or anything, I just can't get past how glaringly obvious it is that it's just invented by human minds.

>>20230898
Every religion is soteriological and starts by acknowledging man is in a fallen state. Even Buddhism.

It is not up to me to explain you the genesis story.

>>20230919
That would still stand even if I were not a Christian. I.e. if anon wants to give a fair shot to a religion he should accept what is orthodox (correct) in them. In the same way he should start by accepting Christian orthodoxy (not eastern orthodoxy) if he wants to give Christianity a fair shot. The same would apply to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc

>>20230918
That's another circle. Tradition bases itself on the divine authority of scripture and the authority of scripture is divinely inspired because it is claimed as such by tradition.

>>20230924
I don’t normally do this because the teaching is so sacred, but read The Perfect Matrimony by Samael Aun Weor in full and you will have the pure, complete, inner secret teaching of Christianity revealed to you. May your father who is in secret guide you on the path

>>20230944
NO THE TRADITION PRECEDES THE SCRIPTURES

>>20230937
>In the same way he should start by accepting Christian orthodoxy (not eastern orthodoxy) if he wants to give Christianity a fair shot.
why not the original form of early christianity, you know, the one that jesus actually preached, instead of the ones created by his followers?

>>20230945
When I read this book it made me so angry I ripped in half and through it across the room.

>>20230947
It is divinely inspired because it is the word of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. Catholic Tradition is beside the point.

>>20230934
I'm not basing my observation on the affirmation of others. I never even used the term "false", I just pointed out that Christianity bases its truths on its own circular affirmation.

>>20230953
It is not the work of christ or the holy spirit

>>20230954
This is nonsense.

If the words of Christ are false, simply show me a single teaching of his that is false, or imperfect. The burden of proof on you is extremely minor here.

>>20230948
Huh? Early Christianity is the continuation of Christ's teaching through St. Paul and the apostles as commanded by Christ.

Acts, the epistles, the Didache, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, apostolic constitution... All of this is early Christianity and catholic.

What is this early Christianity you speak of if not what I just mentioned?

>>20230937
But the Genesis story is not necessary to observe the "fallen state" of man. Even so, the "fallen state" is not exactly what a Buddhist believes, and in fact, Buddhism often bases itself solely on direct observations of reality. The three marks of existence can be brought up without a mythic story to convey them.

>>20230952
No wonder you have no hope

>>20230975
I will never have sex with the vestal virgins you homo. I will never do those dirty nasty things.

>>20230937
>That would still stand even if I were not a Christian. I.e. if anon wants to give a fair shot to a religion he should accept what is orthodox (correct) in them. In the same way he should start by accepting Christian orthodoxy (not eastern orthodoxy) if he wants to give Christianity a fair shot. The same would apply to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc

I did precisely this. I tried to accept Christianity on its own terms. I did not solely engage with Eastern Orthodoxy, I also engaged Lutheranism, Roman Catholicism, many of the different Protestant branches, and they're all the same major made-up things shuffled around.

>>20230973
It's rather disingenuous to say that Buddhism is not mythic though isn't it?

Enlightenment is unification with the Atman, the Brahmin. The cycle of death and rebirth rewards the karmically positive with elevation to angelic states. A proper philosophy of Buddhism encompasses all this, and much more.

>>20230970
how is catholicism closer to early christianity than eastern orthodoxy when catholicism came later?

>>20230991
Catholicism is the original Church. The Orthodox Church are schismatics. This is clear by the fact that their Church is in schism this very day.

>>20230924
>>20230935

If you want to interpret it as just obviously made up, then you will interpret it as obviously made up. There's nowhere else to go there. This is very easy to do if the only thing you knew about Christian history was just the bible, and there was literally nothing after the events of the Book of Acts to support a historical view consistent with it.

But, like I've mentioned, the 2000 years after the events of the New Testament are completely chock full to the brim of personal, eye-witness accounts of Orthodox Saints, up until the present day. I know people who have met the recent Saints, like St Paisios of Mt Athos, Elder Ephraim of Arizona, Fr. Seraphim Rose of Platina, and St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco. Here's an example of Roosh V giving his account of meeting Elder Ephraim of Arizona. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRl3THDYN6Q

This isn't a matter of abstract reasoning from books detailing things that no-one has experienced - it's fundamentally about the direct, lived experience of God in this life, in recent history, that has continued to be true up until this day. If this point is taken seriously, then the idea that it's all just made up becomes far less plausible.

We believe in Napoleon because people who knew Napoleon wrote about him - and we live with the historical consequences of Napoleon to this day. It would be simply insane to disbelieve in the historical reality of Napoleon. The exact same thing applies to Christ, and the lineage he left, preserved in the Orthodox Church.

Or, you could continue doubling down, and claiming that each and every claim about a recent Orthodox Saint is simply made up, to continue backing up the original claim that the events in the bible are made up. This would have to make the Orthodox some of the most extensive pathological liars on the planet, since there are literal mountains of documentation about the lives of miracle-working Saints over the past 2000 years - and yet, somehow, this same level of rampant, institutional, and prodigious dishonesty is not extended to other groups of beliefs.

Side Question: Do either of you two believe in evolution? If so, have either of you tried to consistently apply the same level skepticism to evolution, as you have to the claims of Orthodox Christianity?

>>20230962
Once again you charge me of claiming something is false when I simply did not. It's the clear human invention of Christianity that gives no reason to regard it as holding divine truths. How could anything Christ said not be said by a normal person or the Gospel authors penning in something like a prophetic prediction of something that already occurred (like the fall of the temple)?

>>20230986
You are probably a fag or a chronic masturbator. Just kys

>>20231000
>It would be simply insane to disbelieve in the historical reality of Napoleon.
Well what do we have here? Could it be? A Napoleon denier? Hehehehe Why yes I am insane? Hehehehehe

>>20230973
You can see Jesus' parables also reflect principles from reality.

It is false that Buddhism is purely naturalistic and that there aren't supernatural elements (miracles, demons, gods, etc). Explain nirvana as in direct observations of reality...

>>20231005
I will never kill myself you homogay kys

>>20230819
Take the Guénonpill, don't fall into the pseud larp of pretending via self-adulation that you've "transcended" this illusory construct of "Christianity." Pic related.

>>20230998

Vatican II says that the Orthodox Church still has retained the grace of the Holy Spirit, and the tradition of the first 1000 years of the Church, despite being in schism for over 1000 years, and without a Pope.

>>20231014
That’s why you need to make threads about how you don’t know Christ. You rejected him for your perverse desires. You’re your only worst enemy

>>20231001
Who has ever said the things Christ said? Show me a single person who rivals him as a moral teacher. A child has little knowledge of Socrates or the sayings of the Buddha. But the parables of the Prodigal Son, or the Good Samaritan are practically universally known. Every one on the Earth knows something of the Lord Christ. Who else can possibly be compared to him? Point to a single normal human who has accomplished anything like this.

>>20231000
>people are comparing the historical authenticity of napoleon to jesus
fucking hell get these people off of my board

>>20231000
Sidenote but I went to that exact monastery in Arizona. It was an important step in my journey to Eastern Orthodoxy. I still treasure the memories, despite what I think of Christianity.

Almost everything you said could be used as proof of the truthfulness of Islam, where Muslims attest to Allah performing miracles in their day-to-day life, and even direct experience of the divine in a way that is (albeit superficially) similar to theosis.

It's not a matter of lies, I don't think people who think they saw a miracle think they saw one. But they attribute that miracle to Christ or Allah because they have the potential of such things in their mind.

I don't "believe" in evolution lol, I honestly don't care evolution enough to read into the evidence for it. Those "two" are the same person btw.

>>20231023
>Every one on the Earth knows something of the Lord Christ.
Slow down there with the categorical judgements before you wreck yourself fanboy

>>20231018
The Lord God does not abandon schismatics. Christ himself said "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?"

But it is clear you are rewarded equally for your turning away from the true Church. This is why Constantinople fell to the Muslim hordes and the Church in Rome stands to this day.

>>20231001
https://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2018/03/05/5629-2/

(I'm aware this is an LDS site lol)

>>20231032
Holy shit. You're right! I never thought about it like that... But what about the sack of Rome?

>>20231031
Show me a single child of age who doesn't know his name. Again, you have nothing but pithy negations. Come into the light, brother. For your own sake.

>>20231023
Muhammad? We are approaching a Muslim majority planet by 2050, so by that point there will be more believers in the truths of the Qur'an than the Christian Bible. Just because Christianity was influential or popular doesn't mean it is accurate.

>>20231038
The Light? Why I have- Lucifer has shown it to me.

>>20231029
>I can't "prove" exclusivism
>Perennislism "disproves" Christianity
This is your Brain on Protestantism.

>>20231023
The morality espoused by Christ isn't that special in comparison to other ethical philosophers of the ancient world. If anything, his morality feels flimsy.

>>20231037
The sacking of Rome where the Visigoths left after three days? You're right! That's exactly the same as 600 years of conquest. I'm convinced.

>>20231038
The Light

>>20231023
Not that anon but Jesus would have been forgotten long ago if his followers had not been so strong in their convictions to spread the message, which tells me something is different about Christianity and that it has only ever happened once afterwards (Islam) and that tells me that there is psychological trickery regarding the success of Christianity more so than any "real truth" about it
As for rivals as a moral teacher, you named two of them, Cyrus, Mohammed, Alexander, Benjamin Franklin, a few more too

>>20231049
Religion is not about mere moralism/sentimentalism it's about metaphysical realisation/salvation of the human existence.
Read Guénon!

>>20231027
lol for real, all the major attestations to Jesus are books that are mythic portraits about him. Comparing this to hundreds and hundreds of eyewitness accounts of Napoleon throughout his entire life and it's a molehill and a mountain. We have many portraits made of Napoleon made during his lifetime, his tomb, and even his death mask for crying out loud.

>>20231032
>But it is clear you are rewarded equally for your turning away from the true Church. This is why Constantinople fell to the Muslim hordes and the Church in Rome stands to this day.
You're lucky the lads from /his/ aren't in this thread otherwise they'd tear you a new asshole for that last statement.

>>20231032
Historical Cope.

>>20231049
On the contrary. Christ is above Buddha and Socrates if you read these three sincerely.

>>20231051

>>20231062
They also believe in the holohoax so they’re basically retarded

>>20231038
I bet there are tons of Amazon Jungle natives or Chinese villagers who don't know shit about Jesus, or ever heard of him. This would be especially true in pre-internet times.

>>20231050
>I'm convinced
My work here is done

>>20231053
It is completely different circumstances though.

Muhammed conquered with the sword, as did Alexander, as did Cyrus the Great. There is nothing divine here. We all understand this.

Christianity conquered Rome through 300 years of slavery and the blood of the early martyrs alone. No conquest had ever before been achieved in this way. The fact that Christianity came immediately after Alexander and Caesar is simply more justification for its eternal truth. The Lord demonstrated to the entire world what true Kingship was. If you don't see this, I certainly won't convince you. But the evidence is as clear as day, for all with eyes that can see.

>>20231058
Yeah I know that, this guy just brought up Jesus's morality as if it was something special.

>>20231064
I have and nope lol, Christ is not even close to the Buddha.

>>20231077
For Guénon Jesus is God incarnated. If you knew Guénon you would not think his morality is "flimsy".

>>20231075
>Christianity didn't spread by the sword
Not always but often times it did and often times Muhammed, Alexander and Cyrus conquered without the sword
>No conquest had ever before been achieved in this way
I know of an even larger conquest occuring right now - look up Western religion demographics 2020
>The fact that Christianity came immediately after Alexander and Caesar is simply more justification for its eternal truth. The Lord demonstrated to the entire world what true Kingship was
You are brainwashed beyond help

>>20231080
How can you say that when Buddha was a compassionate kshatriya seeking the middle way while Jesus was the Eternal Priest-King speaking with direct authority?

It is worth mentioning Jesus was par excellence both Priest and King, while Buddha was of the second order.

>>20231082
I meant I know that religion is more than morality. Guenon reframes Christ in relation to Hindi metaphysical terms, I don't see this as anything more than reframing Christianity to try to be something different/more than it is. Like when Tillich said that god is the ground of being.

I always found it funny how the people that say that Christianity is correct only say that AFTER they convert to it - has a non-Christian ever said that Christianity is correct?

>>20231100
>Eternal Priest-King speaking with direct authority
He is only such because the religious text claims he is.

>>20231108
I don't see how you could say it is correct and yet not convert unless you're a masochist.

>>20231108
Yes, Ananda Coomaraswamy for example says it is correct and that the Catholic church contains the full truth. He would go as far as dissuading westerners from seeking Indian wisdom and pointing them to the church. He was hindu.

Guénon also was an Islamic and claimed Christianity was orthodox. Etc etc

>>20231111
No but he ACTUALLY is.

>>20231113
That's sort of my point
You can only say Christianity is correct by being
>One of us
>One of us
>One of us

>>20231032

>The Lord God does not abandon schismatics.

Then there is literally no point to being in communion with the Church, if you do not lose the grace of God by.

You immediately refute yourself. You say Orthodoxy are schismatics, and that they should return to the pope... why? By your own logic, we have God. You have the Pope. You can keep your Pope. We'll keep God.

>>20231119
Yes exactly. And it is true.

>>20231111
No. It is explicit in the new testament. Even if you take only his sayings.

>>20231119
That's the affirmation circle I'm talking about. Maybe a lot of people just need it to cope with life.

>>20231126
Yes. It's called Faith. You either see it or you don't. /thread

>>20231100
>par excellence both Priest and King
He taught a bunch of people before getting executed by the state due to machinations of the religious elite. What a king!

>>20231133
>My kingdom is not of this world.

>>20231132
>/threading your own post

Lmao

>>20231135
>I am the king of a place that cannot be proven to exist!
Not impressive.

>>20231137
Truly I tell you you found the Kingdom of God

>>20231123
The fact that you do not understand even this is typical. The Father does not abandon his Son because he turns his back on him. This is the infinite mercy of the Lord God. But a good son does the will of his Father. And the Father's will was that we be one, as he and the son were one. I have already told you how he rewards your Church according to its deeds, and the fruits of your turning away are clear for all to see.

>>20231142
But it can with eyes to see. Open your eyes!

>>20230819
Take the Neoplatonist pill anon

>>20231132
Is Christianity about faith or the truth (those two things are not the same, in case you didn't know)? You people can never seem to decide

>>20231153
Another already said that but good effort tho

>>20230843
>ou are more interested in 'thinking for yourself'
the absolute fucking state of cult members

>>20231147
>Just start seeing my made-up stuff as true!

This is really silly man

>>20231142
/sci/ is over there

Why are you in a thread about religions if you are going to ask for things that can be seen?

>So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal

2 Cor 4

>>20230843
>Do you deny man is in a fallen state?
What did Christians do about this? Create the Hispanic mongrel races and help Africans breed and propagate in every civilized country. Good job.

>>20231158
Faith then Truth. First you gotta believe in the destination before you attempt the journey. But you'll only know it's true when you get there. But if you don't have faith you'll never get there.

>>20230882
>nooo you need to assume christianity is true for it to make sense
lol
lmao

>>20231158
>A: It's true because XYZ
>B: But those aren't true
>C: Well you believe they're true to see them as true

What a fucking hoot

>>20231158
Faith is required to see the fullness of the truth. The Lord God is the truth, and faith is necessary because He is beyond the limits of human reason. What an atheist what conscribe as the limits of the truth. Of course an atheists rational "truth" can never be the full truth, as it expands as it shrinks and expands as new scientific knowledge is acquired and lost. The Lord Jesus Christ is the fullness of the truth, and for knowledge of this our faith is required.

>>20231160
So you trust your fallible degenerate egotistical self?

I tried to come back to christianity (orthodox, as it is my family's religion) and man no matter what mental gymnastics I twisted myself into, at the end of the day I simply could not shake the visceral and undeniable impression that it is pure bullshit. I seriously can't fathom how anyone buys into this

>>20231153
Just because you name unconditioned reality "god" doesn't mean it is so, nor does it make the Christian view of god any more true. You can map unconditional reality to the Allah of Islam or the Brahman of Hinduism and it'd be about as truthful.

>>20231167
>>20231172
Impressive, very nice.
Let's see Mohammed's religion.

>>20231174
You're brainwashed to think such things are intrinsic to humanity so that you require Christianity to be otherwise.

>>20231174
Stop projecting, retard. Your assumptions are wrong from the get-go

>>20231172
So true. amen

>>20231167
>trust me bro it's all true, you just need to brainwash yourself into believing it and then you'll realize it's true!
Whoa...
>>20231172
I am not an atheist but your jewish desert tales do not sway me. Your worldview is so restricted and petty, it could never be anything else than a false teaching

>>20231183
>>20231184

If you don't think humanity is in a fallible degenerate egotistical state then you don't know your own heart

>>20231029

>Almost everything you said could be used as proof of the truthfulness of Islam

In structure, yes, but not in content when you actually start doing a deeper analysis into what the beliefs actually are. One facet, is that Islam has blatantly internally contradictory facets to it - like saying that the OT and NT are texts that prove Islam, but that the originals have been lost, and then still quoting them to support Islam, and saying that the parts that directly disprove Islam are corruptions.

The other facet, is that Islam is either deistic, in the Sunni side of Islam, making it impossible for anyone to actually have a direct experience of God (identical to Roman Catholic theology) or platonic in the Shia/Sufi side of things, putting themselves into spiritual delusion by believing that they themselves are a part of God - and so committing blasphemy by saying that parts of God can be subject to sin and delusion.

>It's not a matter of lies, I don't think people who think they saw a miracle think they saw one
Can you clarify this? That is, do you believe that these people actually saw miracles? Or do you believe that they only thought they saw miracles?

>>20231179
Again, still not an argument. If the words of Christ are "bullshit" show us one single saying that is false. It shouldn't be hard to do if it is obviously bullshit.

Your "visceral and undeniable impression" is literally you saying you believe your "feels". Which even you shouldn't agree is a logical method of judging truth.

>>20231190
And some dead jew isn't going to help me extricate myself from the world.

>>20231194
>If the words of Christ are "bullshit" show us one single saying that is false.
Didn't he believe the end of days or whatever were going to happen in his lifetime?

>>20231182
We've seen it. Look at Afghanistan and the women and children who are sold into sex slavery this very day and this very hour and you will see the fruits of the false prophet's "religion".

>>20231194
>show us one of jesus' moral teachings and unverifiable truth claims that is false
Are you this retarded or just pretending? jesus didn't teach anything verifiable, he taught morals (which are by essence not "true" or "false") and made supernatural claims
>you believe your "feels"
Yes. The entire christian framework gives me a very strong impression of being a false teaching and a stupid set of superstitions. Reading the gospels reinforced this. I'll go with my gut on this one, even if it makes you seethe. Rational arguments are pointless in the face of such matters, every religion has good rational arguments for it being true, you're not special

>>20231180
Absolutely anon. But realizing Theism is correct and that atheism is midwit garbage is but the first step. In past ages the existence of God was a given but in the modern times the urban bugman is so disassociated from anything resembling spiritual sensibility that he must be retrained to understand the intelligible aspects of reality that exist beyond sense.

>>20231189
Pretty much. Except the brainwashing part. You just believe because you want to believe because you want to find out if it's true. It might not be true but you'll never find out if you don't try, and that implies belief.

>>20231108
>>20231119

What's funny about that? People who believe that something is false, will believe it is false, until they are convinced it is true, and then they will say it is true.

It's like, if I had two acorns in a jar, and you only believed I had one acorn in it, then I showed you two acorns, and changed your mind, would it be funny to say that people only say that I have two acorns in a jar after they've seen it? Come on, man.

>>20231114

Ananda Coomaraswamy and Guenon were Perennialists, so they would say that Orthodox Christianities contain the full truth, precisely because they deny the exclusive truth claims of those Churches, and assume that they are secretly teaching their version of perennialism in their esoteric core.

It is, in this case, saying that Perennialism is correct after they have converted to Perennialism. Orthodox Christianities, in their view, are just other correct forms of Perennialism.

>>20231203
When I want to find out if something's true, I don't start by believing it's true. That is an extremely stupid way to go about things that can only lead to bias and delusion.

>>20231195
t. never read Maximus the Confessor

>>20231199
No that is a common misinterpretation. He said "this generation will not fall away until all these things have occurred" and obviously what Christ "generated" has not yet fallen away.

>>20231206
You don't start believing it's true, you start with believing in the possibility of its truth.

>>20231207
Based

>>20231207
He doesn't even need to read the saints and mystics to realize Christ indeed can free him from this world

>If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

>>20231212
That's exactly what I did and I walked away with an unshakable certainty that it was false.
But of course since to you it can't be anything but true, you will immediately default back to the assumption that I didn't "seek" properly because otherwise your worldview collapses. This is why the entirety of christian apologetics are just a circular argument that other people look at with a mix of amusement and mild annoyance, and is partly why the west has abandoned christianity and turned to other things

>>20231205
>It's like, if I had two acorns in a jar, and you only believed I had one acorn in it, then I showed you two acorns, and changed your mind, would it be funny to say that people only say that I have two acorns in a jar after they've seen it? Come on, man.
Why would anybody believe there is anything other than 2 acorns in it? That is as clear as day and not even remotely comparable to the complex behemoth that is Christianity
Terrible analogy

>>20231146

This is absurd. You're saying that the grace of God does not abandon those who betray God. Why would the Psalmist David in Psalm 50 say "Do not take your Holy Spirit from me" if this was not a possibility for betraying God?

You have completely have ignored what Christ has said about the branches being grafted off - and how being separated from the body of Christ necessarily means being deprived of his grace.

Apologetics like this is exactly what gives Protestants fuel to say that Catholics are Pope-worshippers who disdain the bible. None of the basic spiritual facts presented in scripture are shining through what you've said - the only time it is relevant to you, is when it has to do with the Pope.

The Church is the Body of Christ, and every Orthodox Christian is initiated into it fully by eating Holy Communion, which is only possible with priests that have the grace of God... which you say that the Orthodox have.

If you think that the Church is a worldly institution in a specific geographic location, rather than organic membership in the living body and blood of Christ himself, then what you believe is openly Satanic, and anti-Christ.

>>20231207
>>20231221
Jesus can't do anything for me because I don't believe he was anything special. See your entire worldview hinges on the belief that some jew cult leader was a somehow meaningful spiritual teacher. I don't believe that, so christianity has nothing to offer me
It's very strange that christians are incapable of fathoming that some people do not begin by assuming christianity is true

>>20231201
Moral truths are exactly as verifiable as scientific truths.

"For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil."

>>20231208
Oh I see
So Jesus simply spoke in vague terms to make it impossible to refute and then people like you say that his words are irrefutable? Is that correct?

>>20231231
you're beyond saving
>good
>bad
these things are not self evident
I'm done with you, you're boring as fuck and I have better things to do with my time than argue with cultists on an internet imageboard

>>20231230
Yet you believe in Buddha?

>>20231222
>you will immediately default back to the assumption that I didn't "seek" properly
That's because it's up to God to bestow his Divine Grace. You can do everything right and still not receive grace to see the things of God. It would basically be like a divine case of blue balls. This is why Atheists are such an angry bitter bunch.

>you're boring as fuck
imagine being insulted in this way

>>20231239
>these things are not self evident
This anon has not started with the greeks

>>20231243
Basically Atheists are to God what Incels are to women.

>>20231168

Yeah, you have to assume that anything is true for it to make sense.

Example:

I have a wrench that costs ten dollars, and you want to buy it.

I don't believe that it makes sense for you to want to buy my wrench, because I don't believe you have 10 dollars.

You tell me that you have 10 dollars. I chose to disbelieve that you have 10 dollars, since you're probably lying, and so I still don't believe you actually want to buy the wrench.

You show me the 10 dollars you have. I say that it's obviously a fake, since I don't believe you have 10 dollars.

You tell me it's plainly a real 10 dollar note, and I can only sell you the wrench if I believe it's a real 10 dollar note.

I finally reply: "What, I have to assume you have 10 dollars, in order to believe that you wanting to buy my wrench makes sense? lol lmao"

That's ridiculous.

>>20231232
They are only vague to you.

Christ himself said he spoke in parables so that those with ears might hear. That is how it is. That is how it must be.

>>20231230
Only God can give you the grace to believe. If you don't believe then you are reprobated.

>>20231242
The methods work. That's all I need
Prayer didn't work, nobody ever answered. Your religion is a scam built on self delusion

>>20231243
This way of thinking is so weird and alien
God isn't some capricious mastermind going "you get grace" "nah not you fuck you", what a childish and twisted way to see divinity
I am convinced christians are only christians because they've never seen true divine love. You can't keep believing in this silly nonsense when you get a glimpse of the true nature of reality

>>20231257
You know Buddhists also pray right? They have prayer for different petitions too

>>20231248
Not an argument
>b-but plato says... muh good...
Fuck Plato, still not an argument. We should've stuck with Heraclitus

>>20231264
I'm aware, and it is explicitly stated in texts that prayers do not grant liberation. The meditative practices are distinct

>>20231254
I understand it perfectly but I also see how vague it is
It's all psychological manipulation

>>20231252
Such disingenuous pilpul. When you examine a theory, you don't go at it by assuming it's true. If I want to know if the earth orbits the sun or is orbited by the sun, I don't start my inquiry with "well we know the sun orbits the earth, so..."
The truth of things is verified by observation and direct experience. Not by assuming they're true and going from there, this is cult mentality

>>20231262
And you say this only because you have not seen the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I have seen the "divine love" deep inside the unification of a DMT trip. It is nothing and meaningless compared to the grace of God.

>>20231255
Cool so god thinks I'm unworthy of believing in his jewish son and is therefore condemning me to hell or obliteration or whatever cope you believe in. Now I can move on

>>20231270
Ranting online against Christianity in multiple threads daily do not grant liberation either.

>>20231280
>n-no my divine love is stronger than yours!
Religions aren't anime battles, child. You've obviously experienced neither of the things you're talking about.

>>20231284
We can tell you're a kike, there's no point pretending you're not

Seriously, why the fuck would I worship a Jewish religion?

>>20231275
You don't understand. If you understood you would believe. It's a typical response to believe like you do. I understand why you would think this way. I used to be like you.

>>20231286
Actually I almost don't come to /lit/ anymore because this place has been overrun by retards and you can't talk about anything interesting anymore. This is the first time in about a week I come here. Thanks for reminding me this whole thing is pointless and a waste of our time, I'll go do something more interesting

>>20231242
Not that anon, but Buddha was right because his line of reasoning is logical, his teachings make sense and are not confusing, and historically his followers are faithful, peaceful, and NOT genocidal maniacs who contradict their own moral code and teachings. Buddha doesn't claim he's right because he's Buddha, the way Jesus and most of the Bible does. Buddha never said "Lo I am the son of a great authority and that's why I'm right", he said "I have thought really hard about this, and I also have witnessed some crazy shit, so here is what I have to say and I know I'm right about this:". Buddhists don't fucking argue about their own religious texts for thousands of years on end: either you follow Siddharta's teachings or you don't.
>Oh but what about the denominations of Buddhism
All that spritual chink shit Buddhism with magic and shit or whatever was just them fusing their own folk religions with this cool new philosophy they stumbled across. The denomiations are on completely different pages. Whereas all Christian denominations exist because the Bible is confusing as fuck and is contradictory (like how God is said to be all loving and compassionate, but wrathful, and how God accepted animal sacrifices in Leviticus, and ordered a bunch of arbitrary bumfuck laws that don't matter, but never denounced Roman slavery, and even allowed for a human sacrifice in Judges 11). Theravada Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, and Vajrayana Buddhism are denominations because the latter two stray farther and farther from Buddha's original teachings. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Lutherian, Calvinist Christianity, and all the other denominations I couldn't fucking name all get their shit from the same exact book and somehow manage to get wildly different conclusions. Nice consistent religion, Christcuck

This is the same anon >>20231244

Search the archives for
christer
icchantika
spiritual semite
jew, levant
Etc

His whole life revolves around hating Christianity

>>20231290
Is Islam Jewish?

>>20231289
I haven't a drop of Jewish blood in me. Unlike Yeshua.
>>20231292
Not him but you're aware this is the exact kind of rhetoric literal cults use to get new members right? "You don't get it yet but when you get it you'll automatically believe, trust me..."

>>20231297
>historically his followers are faithful, peaceful, and NOT genocidal maniacs

>>20231287
But this wasn't my argument but yours.
> I am convinced christians are only christians because they've never seen true divine love.
I have no need to battle you. I already have everything I could ever need. I'm simply telling you the truth.

>>20231298
I'm the guy you quoted and although I like the christer poster I'm not so far gone as to spend my days destroying Christianity online. Not everyone who disagrees with you is the same person I'm afraid.

>>20231303
You can't be a Buddhist and kill people nigga, but you CAN be a Christian and kill people as long as you are super duper sorry about it afterwards (but if they're wicked and evil, then you actually did a good thing!).

>>20231297
>Buddha never said "Lo I am the son of a great authority and that's why I'm right", he said "I have thought really hard about this, and I also have witnessed some crazy shit, so here is what I have to say and I know I'm right about this:
Ehhh that's not what I got from Buddhist texts. Buddha is literally called the compassionate one, the liberated etc as titles of authority. He is not an objective scientist you are trying to make

>>20231262
>God isn't some capricious mastermind going "you get grace" "nah not you fuck you"
But he is. Thats the beauty of it. Its the Divine Dialectic of Cosmic Evolution resolving itself through each living organism adapting and surviving or maladapting and dying. The Atheist is like the maladaptive mutation that God tests in an organism to test for its success and which fails, and the believer is like the adaptive mutation that succeeds and continues on into the next stage of evolution. The Reason of God is a higher reason than that which the finite human cognitive power can comprehend. But eventually a new species, Homo Sapiens Spiritualis, will emerge which Homo Sapiens will fight tooth and nail to oppose since the new species will be an existential threat to the old.

>>20231305
Divine love makes everything else seem so inconsequential and small in comparison that still clinging to dogma afterwards shows you haven't experienced it. It's as simple as that.
I won't try to change you anyway, if you already have what you need then keep doing what you're doing, in the end everything will be fine anyway and those who say the contrary are fear-mongerers trying to peddle something.

>>20231310
>You can't be a Buddhist and kill people nigga
The history of Tibet is stained in blood and most of it's history has been as an authoritarian theocratic dictatorship that would make Stalin blush.

>>20231302
Well then let me distinguish clearly from your cult thinking. Some people will never get it. It is God's will to call the believers. It doesn't concern me personally if a single person converts or not. It's not my job nor my aim to bring people into the "cult." I'm simply telling the truth as I know it. There is no onus on anyone else at all.

>>20231315
Now that's what I call larping

>>20231307
I have called your things before. It is incredible how I come back to lit and you are still doing the same thing...

>>20231302
We can still tell you're a kike despite your protests.

>>20231322
>Some people will never get it. It is God's will to call the believers
Then your god willingly condemns people to an eternity of suffering... but he loves them infinitely. This is enough for your entire religion to crumble

>>20231316
Just tell me truly what drug you were on when you experienced this "divine love." Ayahuasca, DMT or LSD are not the truth. Christ is.

>>20231325
Whatever you want to believe, kiddo.

>>20231324
I'm serious tho

>>20231332
Seek help

>>20230819
Buddhism and eastern philosophy is a lot more honest in that sense. That's what I've always appreciated about their concepts. It's more of a straightforward acknowledgement about suffering, whereas Christianity seems to preach unrealistic morals and half-truths about how to fix it. At least there's some straight effort on the Buddhist metaphysics side too, regarding logic and formal arguments on non-duality too. Never seem to find that with Christianity or Judaism. Definitely find a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions though. Hell, some of the bible myths were likely plagiarized too.

>>20231328
No. Every person has the free will to come to him of their own volition. Your are stating a common heresy of the Calvinists.

>>20231331
No drug. It struck me some day.
Christ is yet another construct made by men to cope with reality, but the truth is beyond anything.

>>20231328
Yes the Divine love has both mercy and severity as its aspects. God will condemn some to eternal hellfire because he loves them.

>>20231301
Was it founded by Jews?

>>20231342
But I tried earnestly and got nothing, my prayers were met with silence and made me an unbeliever. Why would god allow this to happen?
>>20231345
This is so unimaginably twisted and morbid I can't even entertain it as a serious possibility. If God is love, Hell does not exist

>>20231279
>If I want to know if the earth orbits the sun or is orbited by the sun, I don't start my inquiry with "well we know the sun orbits the earth, so..."

In order to evaluate any scientific theory, you must evaluate it as if the premises of the theory are true, and see if they remain consistent both internally, and according to further.

It's stated like this:

"For the theory of geocentrism, it's assumed true that the sun orbits the earth. We would expect X Y Z if the sun orbits the earth."

"For the theory of heliocentrism, it's assumed true that the earth orbits the sun. We would expect X Y Z to be true if the earth orbits the sun."

For any set of logical syllogisms that make the case for something, you assume that the premises are true when you are evaluating the internal consistency of the case. This is the exact opposite of pilpul. It's literally the basics of evaluating and comparing opposing explanations.

Imagine if a scientific theory went something like: "In the theory of geocentrism, it's assumed that the sun revolve around the earth. But we're not going to assume that geocentrism is true for the sake of this analysis, so who cares about what the rest of the evidence is, we already know it's false, lmao"

That would be retarded. But that's exactly what is done here >>20231168

>>20231317
The history of the entire medieval europe, reformationist europe. and colonial africa, asia, america is stained in blood and all at the hands of Christ's most loving followers. But it's okay, because non-Christians were all wicked sinners in the first place! If Jesus never was never born, humanity would be happier and better off today

>>20231292
Unlike you, my mind is capable of believing more than one thing

>>20231353
Who are you to question the will of God who created all things? Who are you to say, God you should have blessed me because I prayed for you for a few days and then spent years hating you? Don't you see how foolish this is. God knows the depths of your heart. He gives to those who hear his words and follow them. Instead of praying why don't you repent of your sins? This is the work God loves. This is the one God answers.

>>20231358
>M-Muh colonialism! Violence in medieval europe! Christians are le evil
Holy moly Shlomo, at least try to hide your nose

>muh love, muh love, muh love
tell me about ressentiment without telling me

>>20231231
>Moral truths are exactly as verifiable as scientific truths.
Sam Harris wrote a whole shitty book about this

>>20231353
>This is so unimaginably twisted and morbid I can't even entertain it as a serious possibility.
It is only so for the unenlightened intellect. For them it is morbid. For us it is a thing of beauty.

>>20231357
I didn't say you should assume it's false either, I said you shouldn't start inquiring into a religion by assuming it was true. Accepting the possibility it might be true isn't the same thing

>>20231317
Bro they aren't Buddhist just because they say they are. That's equivalent to calling America a Christian nation despite its materialism and its culture of fetishizing the world instead of God. Or, like a person saying they're a Christian and not believing in the resurrection of Jesus, and also you don't have to love your neighbour

>>20231202
>But realizing Theism is correct and that atheism is midwit garbage is but the first step. In past ages the existence of God was a given but in the modern times the urban bugman is so disassociated from anything resembling spiritual sensibility that he must be retrained to understand the intelligible aspects of reality that exist beyond sense.
Why do you need to name "unconditioned reality" god? Because it's "based"?

Samsara's based, I love it.

>>20231364
>now he's moved on to guilt tripping
This is why I will never take your religion seriously anymore. It is antithetical to what is good

>>20230898
Yeah, this is exactly my point. Most of the parables and myths in the bible are allegorical or metaphors. It kind of promotes these bargain bin 'truthism' statements taken out of their original context. It's reflexive in that way because Christians or Jews can argue whatever they want with it, because it's circular technically they'll always be correct with whatever moral statement they make.

It doesn't really add anything new though. Especially when I ask about how to alleviate suffering, it's like it falls on deaf ears or opens the way to moral preaching about being a better Christian/Jew/Muslim. Basically it doesn't help anyone

>>20231366
Millions were gored at the hands of Christ's followers and the you Christcucks have no way to justify it, you just call me a jew. Ironic, considering your own fucking religion, stupid fuck you're already more jewish than I ever could be

>>20231373
What else would you call all powerful being that is pure intellect?

>>20231378
>Most of the parables and myths in the bible are allegorical or metaphors
not to mention copied from older cultures

>>20231383
It's not a being, and it's not pure intellect

>>20231382
Oh no think of the six gorillion.

>>20231390
Nigga I'm Iranian

>>20231390
>Worships a jew
>Calls people he doesn't like, jews
You guys are funny

>>20231388
I never said it's a being, I said it's all powerful being, not an all powerful being. And yes it is since it would have no ability to create without intellect. This is something all proper religious traditions agree on from Hermeticism to Hinduism to Zoroastrianism.

>>20231370

Then it should be obvious that saying things like "It's obvious that the whole thing is just made up and basing anything off of its core scriptures makes no sense" is the exact opposite of accepting the possibility it might be true. It's not an honest, internal evaluation of the faith on its own terms - it's just dismissal because of pre-commitments to other sets of ideas.

>>20231374
Based knower.

>>20231394
Then whats your point since the Mohammadeans are objectively THE most violent and destructive cult in history. You should be complaining that Mohammad cucked your nation out of its real culture rather than whining about Christians.

>>20231401
I didn't assume these things back when I got into christianity. This opinion I developed later on. Why don't you want to accept that some people will explore your tradition with honesty and openness and simply not feel compelled to accept it?

>>20231374

>>20231410
It's because you can't give a single refutation except for "it feels wrong." It's a womanish way of arguing.

>>20231408
I'm not Muslim lol and I live in the USA baby, praise Allah for globalism and creating these blonde sluts for me to long-dick them daily

>>20231410

Then, if you actually explored it with honesty and openness, then you should be able to easily present an objection to it deeper than "It just seems obviously made up, and basing anything off of its scriptures is obviously retarded.".

Those aren't problems that you have with Christianity itself - they're just emphatic statements that you don't believe it.

>>20231415
>It's because you can't give a single refutation except for "it feels wrong."
see
>>20231378

also you believe in your religion because "it feels right"

>>20231419
To Allah praise be brother

>>20231262
>true divine love. You can't keep believing in this silly nonsense when you get a glimpse of the true nature of reality
How do you see divine love? What is the true nature of reality? (I'm not a Christian, your wording here caught my eye and I want to know more)

>>20231415
How can I refute literal faith? It's a fool's errand.
I also acknowledge the limits of rational inquiry because I'm not a rationalist.

>>20231427
Its the Divine Dialectic of Cosmic Evolution resolving itself through each living organism adapting and surviving or maladapting and dying. The Atheist is like the maladaptive mutation that God tests in an organism to test for its success and which fails, and the believer is like the adaptive mutation that succeeds and continues on into the next stage of evolution. The Reason of God is a higher reason than that which the finite human cognitive power can comprehend. But eventually a new species, Homo Sapiens Spiritualis, will emerge which Homo Sapiens will fight tooth and nail to oppose since the new species will be an existential threat to the old.

>>20231422
See >>20231428. I see no reason to believe there is any kind of significance in the events described in the gospels, nor do I believe Jesus rose from the dead.

>>20231427
it's up to God to bestow his Divine Grace. You can do everything right and still not receive grace to see the things of God. It would basically be like a divine case of blue balls. This is why Atheists are such an angry bitter bunch. Basically Atheists are to God what Incels are to women.

>>20231423
>see
>>>20231378

But these are nonsensical arguments. Allegorical statements are used because they are universal. A metaphor is able to adapt and maintain its relevance even though a culture may change. And not all the teachings are metaphorical anyway. Christ teaches and expounds upon the Mosaic laws, for example. These are not allegories but strict commandments.

And your comment about alleviating suffering is also patently nonsense. The entire ministry of Christ was alleviating suffering! You want to know how to alleviate suffering? Do what Christ did! Feed the poor. Heal the sick. Comfort widows. Defend the cause of those who suffer injustice. How blind can one person be?

>>20231427
This >>20231431 isn't me. And I don't think it can be talked about, it has to be experienced directly. Words might point to it but I am not eloquent enough to give you a satisfying description of what I felt. I just know that the truth is far more grand than what we can envision and that in the end, we are all loved, but this sounds like a retarded platitude when I talk about it, so as I said, it needs to be felt, not said.

>>20231423

What's there to see in what you linked? None of it has any substance. It's just "These seem like myths.", which is a restatement of "This just seems made up", and doesn't actually address the fundamental differences in Christianity for how suffering is relieved - that is, it can't be relieved by our own efforts, but that Christ had to become incarnate in order to undo the curse of Adam, so that we could be deified by eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood, to progressively overcome the fallen nature we have inherited.

None of that is analogous to anything else in other belief systems. Christianity isn't a set of moral platitudes and moral teachings. It's a direct initiation into the divine life of Christ. If you think it's just a set of moral platitudes, you have not been paying attention to it.

>>20231419
Nice try kike.

>>20231426
She's Christian. Look at her talisman.

>>20231442
>>20231446
they aren't arguments, silly
that anon is simply pointing out that christianity has created a framework full of metaphors and allegories which contain enough """""truths""""" to convert people to the cause so they can convert people to the cause so they can convert people to the cause - much like how a virus spreads

one day a new religion will be formed with similar traits to christianity and it will dwarf christianity and nobody will doubt it because it does everything christianity did and better, so why bother sticking with christianity? and don't give me that "muh divine jew" horse shit

>>20231451
They can't help themselves can they? Whenever there is a Christian thread they have to poison it with whatever hateful scheme and immorality they can think of.

>>20231435

So... That's it?

I ask you to give a reason deeper than "I just don't believe it", and you respond by saying "I just don't believe it" again?

C'mon, man.

>>20231460
Yes. That's all there is to it. I lack the will to believe.

>>20231342
Im not that anon, but I am confused
Say I am god, and I want to make an bee farm, and in this bee farm I want my bees to make honey (follow Christ). I then make bees that I know, because I am god, will never ever make honey.
Well what was the point of making those bees? I know they will never ever make honey, yet I create them anyway. Also, what was the point in creating a bee farm at all? Why would god not just skip the bee farm altogether and make the saints and heaven? It is clear to me that when a bee is created, he is created with the knowledge that he will make honey or not. I know free will and omniscience can co-exist, but it seems to get really messy when you combine a omnipotent creator who hands out rules

>>20231460
Do you expect some autistic legalistic nitpicking of thomism or something? I'm not that far gone. From the start I said I wasn't a rationalist, and it's not unreasonable to dismiss a faith by simply disregarding the claims it makes that have to be taken on faith. Not sure what trouble you're having with that.

>>20231474
For the lulz obviously.

>>20231474
It makes zero sense but I guess I haven't shaken off the cultural conditioning completely because I'm still a bit scared of the idea of hell nonetheless. How do I let it go?

>>20231297
This is amazing stuff, anon. I've been reading into Buddhism for a while and you articulated the fundamental difference between Buddhism and Christianity beautifully. Do you have any Buddhist books or lectures you'd recommend?

>>20231442
It's still not saying anything new though man. You can go on with the moral sentiments, they aren't helping me or anyone else. At least Buddhism and eastern philosophy promotes meditation and breath practice. At least they're honest about our narcissistic human condition, believing we're the pinnacle of the entire fucking universe

I just find a huge lack of compassion among religious people, it's honestly very disappointing. Plus the general disdain for mental illness and the anti-science motives. Kind of mind-boggling how little help it turns out to be.

>>20231313
I agree. The Buddha's teachings are presented logically, but he doesn't declare himself to be absolutely correct. The truthfulness speaks for itself.

>>20231474
you're under the assumption that the christian god came before humans, which is incorrect, it is the other way around
that's why there's so many logical holes

>>20231467

Well, when you come around to thinking that you should have actual reasons for believing or disbelieving things, rather than just repeating that you don't currently believe in something, you should try make this thread again.

>>20231012
>Explain nirvana as in direct observations of reality
Perception without interpretation.
Unconditioned awareness.
A state of complete acceptance of perceived reality.

>>20231485
>disdain for mental illness and the anti-science motives
Read philosophy of science
>believing we're the pinnacle of the entire fucking universe
Read German Idealism

>>20231483
>Do you have any Buddhist books or lectures you'd recommend?
seconding this

>>20231297
The Theravada-Mahayana schism exists because Theravada is practical and has a lot of metaphysical unanswered questions that don't matter to the attainment of Nibbana. Mahayana by comparison has a stronger metaphysical backbone which taken to its logical conclusion leads to some divergences.

It's not you anon, monotheism is just cringe

>>20231501

>>20231492
>>20231478

>>20231498
No. We're talking about the bible. Also, if you can't sum up the general concepts then don't recommend the book.

>The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

>>20231506
It's just you anon. Non-monotheism is cringe.

>>20231366

>>20231483
>>20231501
Not him but In the Buddha's Words is usually considered the best introduction to Theravada. Also I found the Diamond sutra beautiful.
For lectures I would recommend anything by Thanissaro or Vimalaramsi

>>20231481
>>20231511

>>20231474
Which is a purer honey? One you make yourself or one you buy from the store?

>>20231509
>tfw we're not talking about the bible

>>20231519
Obviously the one you buy from the store.

>>20231514
No sorry, I have reality on my side, and you don't. If you don't agree, then name one purely monotheistic system of power that can even compete with the non-monotheistic ones that dominate the world today

>>20231517
Hell is created by the mind? Wouldn't that make it temporary, a self inflicted condition?

>Man is in a fallen state.
Okay, so what? What's your advice? How does this help me in any way?

>>20231519
An omnipotent being should be able to make some pretty pure honey

>>20231519
what's the fucking difference? we don't all live in the US where corn syrup GMO slop is injected into every piece of food

>>20231524
Then your misunderstanding is clear. The honey a man creates with his own hands tastes ten times as pure. This is why God creates his bee farms. Not to harvest his honey. But because he loves his bees.

>>20231526
Yes, where do you think Christianity and religion in general came from? Our arseholes?

>>20230819
Hell is eternal damnation you will burn infinitely your skin will melt and simultaneously regenerate forever.
Good luck with that punishment, if you can't mentally overcome this then you're NGM8

>>20231525
>I have reality on my side,
Nope. Only illusion.

Almighty God dominates the World today.

>>20231538
So to not go to hell I just have to not believe in hell?

>>20231541
In that case, I sure hope the One True God isn't Allah

>>20231536
>The honey a man creates with his own hands tastes ten times as pure
*Pushes up glasses*
Heh, humans don't actually make honey. You have committed the most terrible of atheistic sins! A fallacy!
Everybody with a degree knows that BEES make honey.

This post was made by atheist drive-by gang

Take the pantheism pill

>>20231536
>The honey a man creates with his own hands tastes ten times as pure.
On the contrary, store bought honey is ten times more delicious and not gross because you don't see the nasty ass bees it came from.

>>20231543
Is that why all the pious flock towards the secular west, and not the other way around?

>>20231519
I am satisfied with that answer.
Thank you.
Combining it with what another anon told me. Something along the lines of
>divine punishment isnt necessarily a bad thing
It makes perfect sense.

>>20231474

Because the farmer wanted the bees to come closer to the same level of glory and power that the farmer had, so he gave dominion over the whole farm to the first bees.

Then, through disobeying the farmer, the bees proved that they wanted to try to reach farmer-hood by themselves. This had unfortunate consequences, because it's impossible to become more like the farmer unless you are in harmony with the farmer, and so this crippled their own ability to make honey, and all their descendants have inherited this crippling. It's some crazy hereditary bee epigenetics, or something.

It's sad when this means that some bees are born in a situation where they do not believe that making honey is even possible, but this is not the fault of the farmer. It's the fault of the bees who broke their own nature.

I tried to continue with the bee, honey, and farmer analogy, but it would get too convoluted. I'm just going to switch to what the metaphor is trying to convey.

So let's address the fact that some people are made in situations where it is impractical for them to actually hear the gospel. God will judge them accordingly, according to their conscience - but since they are without the actual truth, it's not that likely that they will have the knowledge necessary to know how to follow their conscience properly.

Aside from that, if you truly care for their souls, then why don't you pray for their forgiveness? One of the things lost in modern Christianity is the necessity of prayer for the dead. If you earnestly prayed for the salvation of your ancestors who had never had an opportunity to follow Christ in their lives, then they may very well be liberated from hades and be welcomed into heaven.

Otherwise, you should just leave that problem up to God's judgement. God's in a place to judge people who have died without hearing the truth - we aren't. People who say that people who haven't heard of Christ are instantly damned irrevocably, like bible-thumping Baptists, are too used to putting themselves in the position of God, and judging other people's damnation themselves. That's why they also fall to ridiculous ideas like "being saved through faith alone", since they want to judge that they themselves are saved, instead of recognising that it's God who judges if they are saved or not.

>>20231557
>It makes perfect sense
How?

>>20231550
Damn you atheist drive by gang! You're inescapable logic has confounded me again! *shakes fists in the air*

>>20231481
Read into Christian Universalism, specifically how the Bible itself speaks of hell's punishment being in impermanent eons and not eternity -- the whole idea of eternal punishment is based on the Latin-speakers mistranslating the Greek:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Views_on_Hell

Any Christian who speaks of eternal damnation doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

>>20231544
No, you just think about other things while you're there. Kind of like what I do when i'm working my skin off outside in the boiling Summer heat.
Sweating so much that you actually run out of body fluid to sweat out and your drenched clothes weighing you down like anvils makes no difference to you if your focus is in the right place.

>>20231545
Ngmi, why don't you give into the fear! Succumb to the fear! Imagine the heat of hellfire as you scream and roast indefinitely! You will regret every last moment and you will cry and beg for just a single second more in life where you could've repented by just confessing the Mighty Name of God!
Submit to the fear, let it control your life, let it dominate you!!! Come to the darkside goyy!!

>convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit
Right, how does this help me again?

>>20231558
And we also have many bees claiming to speak on behalf of the farmer. Which is the correct one?

>>20231507
>Autism in book form
Shoo, Kunt

>>20231558
This is completely nonsensical what the fuck
The farmer is incompetent and retarded

>>20231562
Submit to Jesus or Burn!! Forever! All you need to do is simply say you believe and you're saved!!!

>>20231554
Yes. Almighty God rules the secular West as well as the East. He rules all.

>>20231516
Great. I already have In the Buddha's Words and it's fantastic. The Diamond Sutra is Mahayana, if I'm not mistaken. Do you care much about the differences between Theravada and Mahayana?

>>20231574
So he doesn't like it when we worship him? It seems that the less we worship him, the better off we are

>>20231562

Fuck off. If universalism is true, then literally no moral actions matter.

If you care for the salvation of others, you pray for their souls. If universalism is true, you don't need to pray for them, or yourself, or pray to God, or care about God at all - just be a degenerate until you die, then receive heaven eventually.

>>20231579
He doesn't care whether we worship him or not. He's almighty he don't give a fuck.

>>20231578
Yeah. Generally "sutra" implies Mahayana, "sutta" implies Theravada.
>Do you care much about the differences between Theravada and Mahayana
No, and neither do actual Buddhists, but it's good to know the differences.

>>20231581
>then literally no moral actions matter
welcome to 2022

>>20231581
>I need eternal punishment for morality to matter
lol wtf

God hates rabbiworshippers and race traitors.

>>20231569

The ones who actually know the farmer.

There are many people who can claim to speak on behalf of you.

Which is the correct one?

The one that actually knows you well enough to speaks on behalf of you.

You can't get around that - direct, personal knowledge is a must.

>>20231516
>In the Buddha's Words
is this considered good reading material for somebody who knows literally nothing about buddhism? if not, can you give some examples of what are?

>>20231569
The Church of the Bee Apostles and the Early Bee Fathers of course...

>>20231581
Good job not addressing that the Bible itself says eon and not eternity.

where does pic related fit into the bee canon?

pic 1/2

>>20231592
see >>20231590

>>20231592
It's fucking true you're just stupid! And have not the slightest clue about Christian Ontology /Epistemology I recommend "Jay Dyer" on YouTube, he is the Modern Chrysostom/Apostle Paul.

>>20231597
Yes, it's a very good introduction for complete beginners. You might also like What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula.

>>20231601
pic 2/2

>>20231588
>No, and neither do actual Buddhists, but it's good to know the differences.
That's relieving. I come across a lot of dogged online "Buddhists" who get their knickers in a twist over denominational differences. Seems to be a result of denominational Christian thinking, unfortunately.

>>20231588
Yes Cope.
Vajrayana is the elite choice.

>>20231587
That's a good point. For the very human-like pagan gods, you can understand them getting pissed for not being worshipped. But a transcendent, almighty deity wouldn't give a fuck. Maybe that need for worship is just from Yahweh being a desert tribal deity.

>>20231592
You don't understand the TAG (Transcendental argument for God) stupid idiot.

>>20231611
What do you recommend I read/watch to dive into Vajrayana?

>>20231606
>>20231601
and lets throw some more bee pictures into the mix

>>20231604
Breh, I hope this is satire. Jay Dyer is the biggest blowhard retard I've ever seen on the internet.

>>20231606
>" In that day the Lord will whistle for flies from the Nile delta in Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also."

>>20231607
Yes it's mostly westerners projecting. Which is not to say that the differences are inconsequential, otherwise the various schools wouldn't exist, but Buddhists have a different take on the idea of "canonicity" than abrahamics (see concepts like upaya). They all believe their specific school is the "most right" and the one that contains the Buddha's true teaching but a Vajrayanin monk isn't going to get into an argument with a Bhikku over whether or not arahants haven't finished their work in samsara or whatever
>>20231611
Vajrayana is interesting but I don't know that much about it, it seems that to get any true insight you need to practice with a guru and not on your own.

>>20231611
How do I get into it? Books?

>when your virgin mother gives birth to you

>>20231614
TAG does not prove that the Christian god exists or that there's any truth to the bullshit in the Bible.

>>20231595
All of them claim to know him. There's a few that claim to talk to him regularly, and they've all written completely different books. Which one is correct?

>>20231615
>>20231629
Not that guy but Vajrayana is an esoteric branch of Mahayana so it wouldn't be very efficient to dive straight into it without at least a cursory knowledge of Mahayana metaphysics

>>20231634
Any good books on Mahayana metaphysics?

>>20231632
It doesn't prove that god exists period. "Arguments for the existence of god" are just that: arguments.

>>20231640
>Arguments for the existence of god
Arguments that prove the existence of God. FTFY.

>>20231637
The Mulamadhyamakakarika is the foundational text. The Heart sutra is a short and concise exposition on the heart (aptly named) of Mahayana, which is sunyata. Get the Red Pine translation

>>20231615
The practice of dzogchen by longchenpa
Introduction to tantra by lama yeshe
Overview of Buddhist tantra by panchen sonam dragpa
But you will require lineage initiation to practice the corresponding sādhanā

>>20231648
Hey anon, do you know of any resource that exposes the true Six Yogas of Naropa without watering them down for non initiates?

>>20231621
Huh? Dyer is undefeated in debate, he is an intellectual giant metaphysician.

>early humans worshipped water, mountains and nature in general
>humans after them worshipped superhuman humanoid gods that were not omnipotent
>humans after them worshipped a single god that was omnipotent
>humans after them worshipped _________
?
what do you guys think comes next?
bees?

>>20231645
The TAG proves jack shit and nobody even takes it seriously

>>20231656
At some point you need to stop worshiping and start doing the work yourself.

>>20231667
see: Buddhism

>>20231653
Maybe here, but it's probablybeet not to get into all this stuff unitiated.
https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/download/Tantra/en/Glenn%20H.%20Mullin%20-%20The%20Practice%20of%20the%20Six%20Yogas%20of%20Naropa-ebook.pdf
There are some genuinely good "encylocpedias" online like one called rigpawiki or something, and then another called tibetanbuddhistencylopedia

Maybe the best thing to do is learn all about Dream Yoga and get initiated by the iṣṭadeva in your dreams directly but this is too advanced.

>>20231662
Fuck off. Dyer is the Modern Chrysostom his arguments are so valid and true, he studied philosophy in university. You don't know what you're taking about.

>>20231662

He's false flagging.

>>20231679
>he studied philosophy in university
So he’s a fucking fool

>>20231688
False flagging what? You Satanic moron, Dyer stands his ground as a philosopher par excellence, Dyer is the Final Boss. I would venerate him as a Saint.

>>20231677
Yeah I'm aware of the necessity of initiation. It's mainly curiosity. Dream yoga can be practiced without initiation, though? I thought it required empowerment's. I'm really bad at lucid dreaming anyway, I've had a dream journal for two years and no LD.

>>20231310
>>20231372
>buddhists can't kill anyone
What is the story of the compassionate captain? Jesus Christ, people just can't read into religions and just post most retarded shit.
https://thedailyenlightenment.com/2011/07/the-compassionate-captains-skilful-means/

>>20231787
A Buddha Can kill anyone.

>>20231700

Now it's just blatantly obvious you're false flagging.

>>20231825
Cope. Dyer And Seraphim Rose are my most formative influences.

>>20231795
So buddha was not a buddhist, or he was a fraud.

>>20231849
>a retard and a homosexual are my most formative influences
Hmm...

Anon in another thread put it well:
> To read abrahamic nonsense after delving into eastern traditions feels like listening to a retarded child sing after hearing a symphony. Abrahamic religion is primitive and frankly intuitively ridiculous to anyone who wasn't either raised into it or deluded themselves through self-indoctrination like you most likely did. It's not even comparable really, one provides you with a glimpse into the nature of reality, the other is a set of stupid jew stories and the surrounding millennia of mental gymnastics to make it seem like the Greeks had predicted it all along.

>>20231865
Get out of here pseud read some Tomberg etc.

>The educated man of today is completely out of touch with those European modes of thought and those intellectual aspects of the Christian doctrine which are nearest those of the Vedic traditions. A knowledge of modern Christianity will be of little use because the fundamental sentimentality of our times has diminished what was once an intellectual doctrine to a mere morality that can hardly be distinguished from a pragmatic humanism. A European can hardly be said to be adequately prepared for the study of the Vedanta unless he has acquired some knowledge and understanding of at least Plato, Philo, Hermes Trismegistus, Plotinus, Gospel of John, Dionysius the Areopagite, Meister Eckhart and Dante
—AK Coomaraswamy "Vedanta and the Western Tradition

>I do not see how anyone who cannot read John, or Dionysius, or much of Philo or Hermes or Plotinus with enthusiasm can read the Upanishads with enthusiasm;

>I quote from St Thomas Aquinas a good deal because most of what I need can be found there
—AKC

>The educated man of today is completely out of touch with those European modes of thought and those intellectual aspects of the Christian doctrine which are nearest those of the Vedic traditions. A knowledge of modern Christianity will be of little use because the fundamental sentimentality of our times has diminished what was once an intellectual doctrine to a mere morality that can hardly be distinguished from a pragmatic humanism. A European can hardly be said to be adequately prepared for the study of the Vedanta unless he has acquired some knowledge and understanding of at least Plato, Philo, Hermes Trismegistus, Plotinus, Gospel of John, Dionysius the Areopagite, Meister Eckhart and Dante

—AK Coomaraswamy "Vedanta and the Western Tradition

>I am the food. I am the eater of the food. Those who share me preserve me. Those who do not share me I eat as food.
—Taittiriya Upanishad

>This is my body which I give to you that you may eat it and have eternal life.
—The Gospels

Schuon wrote:
>The Catholic saints have nothing for which to envy the bhaktas of India.

AKC's son wrote:
>Tough outwardly it has been primarily bhaktic or devotional in character, Christianity contains legitimate and essential elements which Coomaraswamy, for one, has compared to “an Upanishad of Europe”. Christianity is a full Revelation, addressed to a particular sector of humanity; our task, as “workers of the eleventh hour” is to fathom its profundities once again insofar as this may be possible and, hopefully, sense something of That which led St Paul to exclaim: “O the depth of the riches, the wisdom and the knowledge of God!” (Rom xi, 33).

>>20231975
Cont.
Guénon wrote:
>The homage rendered in this way to the new-born Christ by the authentic representatives of the primordial tradition in the three worlds which are their respective domains, is at the same time, we should clearly note, the assurance of the perfect orthodoxy of Christianity in this respect.

AKC:
>What I am appalled by is that even Catholics who have the truth if they would only operate with it wholeheartedly, are nearly all tainted with modernism.

>>20231865
>set of jew stories etc. Etc.
Filtered.

>>20231865
>Abrahamic religion is primitive and frankly intuitively ridiculous to anyone who wasn't either raised into it or deluded themselves through self-indoctrination like you most likely did.
This is pseud-tier, so what exactly is "self-indoctrination" because it is not even close to being a metaphysical observation, parapsychological at best, anyway its borderline naturalism, you honestly missed the point with the bible etc. All scriptures scale to the readers comprehension, you are merely shallow or you are Aesthetics exterior oriented, esoterism is not limited to the distinction between abrahamism
And non-abrahamism, I see this all the time with boomer Buddhists who are essentialy Islam, Christianity, etc. Rejects, they are essentialy materialists etc. Metaphysically inept, but they assert their superiority over all things Western, because the Jews popularised these movements in the 80s etc.

>>20231865

Get out of here pseud read some Tomberg etc.

>The educated man of today is completely out of touch with those European modes of thought and those intellectual aspects of the Christian doctrine which are nearest those of the Vedic traditions. A knowledge of modern Christianity will be of little use because the fundamental sentimentality of our times has diminished what was once an intellectual doctrine to a mere morality that can hardly be distinguished from a pragmatic humanism. A European can hardly be said to be adequately prepared for the study of the Vedanta unless he has acquired some knowledge and understanding of at least Plato, Philo, Hermes Trismegistus, Plotinus, Gospel of John, Dionysius the Areopagite, Meister Eckhart and Dante
—AK Coomaraswamy "Vedanta and the Western Tradition

>I do not see how anyone who cannot read John, or Dionysius, or much of Philo or Hermes or Plotinus with enthusiasm can read the Upanishads with enthusiasm;

>I quote from St Thomas Aquinas a good deal because most of what I need can be found there
—AKC

>I am the food. I am the eater of the food. Those who share me preserve me. Those who do not share me I eat as food.
—Taittiriya Upanishad

>This is my body which I give to you that you may eat it and have eternal life.
—The Gospels

Schuon wrote:
>The Catholic saints have nothing for which to envy the bhaktas of India.

AKC's son wrote:
>Tough outwardly it has been primarily bhaktic or devotional in character, Christianity contains legitimate and essential elements which Coomaraswamy, for one, has compared to “an Upanishad of Europe”. Christianity is a full Revelation, addressed to a particular sector of humanity; our task, as “workers of the eleventh hour” is to fathom its profundities once again insofar as this may be possible and, hopefully, sense something of That which led St Paul to exclaim: “O the depth of the riches, the wisdom and the knowledge of God!” (Rom xi, 33).

Guénon wrote:
>The homage rendered in this way to the new-born Christ by the authentic representatives of the primordial tradition in the three worlds which are their respective domains, is at the same time, we should clearly note, the assurance of the perfect orthodoxy of Christianity in this respect.

AKC:
>What I am appalled by is that even Catholics who have the truth if they would only operate with it wholeheartedly, are nearly all tainted with modernism.

>>20231865
>set of jew stories etc. Etc.
Filtered.

>>20231993
>>20232004
kek, christians being called out on the primitiveness of their cult always makes them seethe

>>20232035
I'm not Christian. So seethe, I'm just not a larping Jew vs. Aryan pseud.

>>20231297
>the latter two stray farther and farther from Buddha's original teachings.
Midwot take. Theravada inventing thousands of universals was what determined groups of monks to splinter and try to create a "back to the original" current, thus Mahayana appeared.

>>20230819
Take the schizo pill anon.

it's vague misleading half-truths, but it's good for you!

>>20230819
Take the buddha pill

>>20231075
Jesus died almost 1 century after Caesar and almost 4 centuries after Alexander. How is that "immediately"? kek

>>20231993
> the Jews popularised these movements in the 80s etc.
Your religion is a heresy of Judaism. And it’s really pathetic to see Christians flaunt their book of Jewish fairy tales as if it has any metaphysical value. You’re simply pretending Christianity is bigger/better than it is. Move on.

>>20232121
The more I study the early Buddhist schools the more they look just as proto-Mahayana as they are proto-Theravada. If anything, Theravada deviates from the main root of Buddhism by making itself so absolutist.

>>20230843
>What did you do?
>no response
Exactly as >>20230913 said - textbook.