/lit/ - Literature

>>20230373
Bc nobody knows what happens when you die until you die and hell could be waiting for suicideanon.

>>20230373
Humans are social animals. When one person opts out of life, they all start considering it. Suicide makes the living insecure. That's why it's a crime.

>>20230397
That’s true I suppose

>>20230373
Read Cioran my guy
“It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.” - Cioran

>>20230373
Nothing wrong with suicide, you're just a pussy if you go through with it because you "sad".

>>20230421
>Nothing wrong with it, but if you do it for some reasons it is bad
Why, retard? Why would the motivation make any difference?
>>20230414
Cioran was a fakecel.

>>20230425
Because if you are too much of a bitch to be able to handle and live life to its natural end then you are, with respect, a throbbing pussy.

>>20230433
>You need to live a shitty life to its shitty end to make me feel better about my shitty life!
You're such a small dick little bitch. Grow a spine.

>>20230414
based cioran enjoyer

>>20230440
Try not to injure yourself with those edges, try to cope with being suicidal by taking a walk or something.

>>20230448
You have no confidence in your own ideals.

>>20230458
Vitamin D is also very good for you, strongly recommend.

>>20230373
Humans have divinely implanted “morals” which is why everyone knows murder is bad. Everyone also knows suicide is bad. The question is, why? And the answer is, murder is bad because it’s a transgression against the love commandments because you deprive another man of life. Life on earth serves a purpose for that man. Likewise, it is not God’s order for you to prematurely deprive your own self of this life opportunity.

>>20230433
Death is death. It's always going to be scary. Suicide is definitely not a coward option though, to actually go through will it is next level. I just think it makes everyone feel bad, but loss will always feel like that, nothing has really changed.

>>20230651
I think you have to distinguish between death and dying. Dying is obviously scary, because it is generally painful and one does not know how extreme the moment exactly before death will feel, death not so much. The terrifying thought is what if the moment of excruciating pain right before death stretches out into eternity for a phenomenological reason we are not aware of.

>>20230679
Death actually sounds peaceful when you put it like that. Also not just how painful dying will be, but the general anxiety you feel looming as you get older, have to go see a doctor for whatever reason, and all that. I'm too young to think about that but I still do, I hate going to the doctor and shudder at the thought of anything worse than the flu. Dying slowly at old age sounds like absolute shit too.

The Good needs us to fight even when we can't see clearly what we're fighting for

Life is short, fight for goodness even if it's just to spite evil, just in case there's meaning in all this (there is)

>>20230482
This is correct

>>20230482
Good answer going to return to god after many years thanks to this post.

>>20230373
because if they accept yours, they have to accept their own.

>>20230414
I don't understand this quote. If someone wants to end suffering that is ongoing the how could it be too late?

No, Chad! Don’t kill yourself, you can still make genuine connections even in this gynocentric culture that objectifies, not every girl is a whore that sees you as a walking dildo.

>>20230482
>Everyone knows these are bad
Not even close. These are timeless questions.

>>20230402
Stop it your scaring them

>>20230733
Fantastic post my friend. I'll carry your words for life.

>>20230373
Depending on if you're talking personal or institutional.
It's sad to experience the death of a loved one - group dynamics. And for those group dynamics, suicide also has a hint of self importance: "I'm so singular that I can decide my OWN death." And in that sense it exacts upon a population a wind of solipsism, because in their midst was one who was 1. enacting and unveiling a hitherto unknown precedent 2. not of them, 3. and before them; and now they know existential loneliness without that mystery solvent: Suicide is proof of God via proof of external - and physiologically estranged - intelligence, through revelation. Maybe, then, God really IS dead, and any fear of God is precisely the pressure of that fulcrum beyond Him. Like a star at night, a million years gone - still shining.

>>20230373
of course he's going to say it's based, he killed himself.

>>20230414
I'm reading cioran right now and don't understand that quote

>>20230482
Murder is bad, because if you killed one of your fellow tribesmen, his brother will kill you in your sleep or potentially get kicked out of the tribe to await certain death in the wilderness. The ones that survived passed on their genes to not kill their next of kin. Members of other tribal groups are fair game, as we're not related by blood and they're seen as a competitor to our own genetic group for a limited a access to resource. Suddenly murder is a -ok.

>>20231176
He's talking about the fact that people kill themselves after life has already hurt them, so they kill themselves to late. It doesn't make sense when you take into account the avoidance of future suffering. Cioran is a fun writer to read, but half of what he said was just meaningless blog posts back in a time before blogs existed.

>>20230373
Life has a way of changing drastically, sometimes it will put you through the meanest storms, if you give up and kill yourself, then you will never live what comes next, it's sad.

>>20230482
> everyone knows murder is bad.
> human history is a history of mass murder

>>20230482
>it is not God’s order for you to prematurely deprive your own self of this life opportunity
what opportunities? i was never given any, only setbacks. i am now 24 and working as a student carpenter instead of having become the intellectual scientist i always aspired to be when i was younger, simply because i was robbed of the circumstances required for such a profession. God has given me jack shit, he can go fuck himself

>>20230482
>Humans have divinely implanted “morals”
You misspelled conservation instinct, but whatever.

>>20230373
This reminds me of one of the existential thoughts I have been dealing for a long time now.

How the perception concepts such as death, suicide, sickness, and old age drastically change from our childhood/teens to adulthood.

Back when I was younger, I had an immovable positive outlook on life, that I could overcome anything. And now, I feel so fragile and weak. Like everything life throws at me is a storm I cant stop, but rather just endure through it. The pain remains. I feel like I have become weak. I want to regain that youthful strength, but I think it might be impossible.

Indeed an unbreakable will is the product of ignorance.

bump

Suicide is le bad because it makes people stop and take a rational assessment of living life.

>>20230373

>>20231523
dude, you're only 24. You've still got 20 years to go before you can start whining.

>>20230414
A silly non sequitur. Very French indeed.

>>20231663
Which nevertheless could have been created by God.

>>20230482
Not everybody knows murder is bad. You could consider those who do not understand this to be guided by demons, if you would like to look at it from a religious perspective.

>>20230373
The soul survives death. I have become aware of this from personal experience which cannot be explained otherwise. This would imply that the state of a soul, the terrible anguish and oppressive darkness that characterizes the soul of a suicide, would remain after death.

>>20231523
This is ressentiment.

>>20230373
it really depends on the context.

i've often said i'd happily kill myself the moment i run out of money to live life the way i like to live it.

in some ways perhaps this ethos inspired me to avoid being poor? hm.

>>20234091
despair at ge 24, they tell you to shut up and get old
despair at age 44, they tell you to shut up and carry on balding.

lesson:

ignore the clamors of the lower world.
Virgil.

>>20234844
murder is not necessarily bad at all; even a horrible killing spree leads to reformations and advancement in law to ensure that the horrible scenario does not occur again. ideally anyway.

>>20234839
>God.
and from an Abramic biblical point of view, pretending to blame the cause your sins on some random person and killing them alongside your ugly slavering fellow villagers is 100% approved by the God.

>>20234830
alons y

>>20233772
parry, riposte, nose-bridge bash

>>20231452
>>20230482
>Humans have divinely implanted “morals”
>Everyone also knows suicide is bad.

>>20234909
Those who murder in the name of progress are often murdered by those who come after them. It is the opening of a Pandora’s box of evils.

Regarding what you consider the “Abrahamic Biblical point of view” None of what you say is sanctioned by Jesus Christ.

>>20234909
Those advancements could just as well be made without murder.

>>20234975
>Those who murder in the name of progress are often murdered by those who come after them. It is the opening of a Pandora’s box of evils.
yes, and so murder solves the problem of murderers as the murderers are themselves (likely) murdered. there's no deficit there until the murderers are not murdered, in which case their act of murder can be said to have worked.

>>20234975
>None of what you say is sanctioned by Jesus Christ.
"CAST OFF YE TUNICS AND BUY A SWORD"
"NOW LET'S GO INTO THE TEMPLE AND FUCK SUM SHIT UP"
Jesus

>>20234984
of course they could be, but again we have to say "ideally".

something such as that example can be said not to achieve that outcome only if the society is very stupid and does not investigate the "horrible mass murder" in order to figure out the cause and adapt the laws to counter the gap which enabled the "horrible mass murder" to occur.

a high school shooting today, for example, is a waste of time, as the society is too retarded to learn from it. it is even, i would say, counter productive.

>>20235059
As if laws had anything to do with it! If you mean to say that laws could be enacted that would prevent mass murder don’t kid yourself. It’s a question of sickness of soul. The sick-souled materialist could convince themselves that they are above the law and are firmly on ‘the right side of history.’ This reasoning need not happen consciously on the part of the materialist, it is often fed to them as “correct.” They are often too dull to realize what they are. When materialists of this sort reach critical mass you get mass murder. If they comprise a smaller portion of a society you get rioting and terrorism even if society is relatively well sorted out. How else do we get rioting such as we saw after the death of George Floyd?

>>20233801
this dude is really great at using a lot of words to say absolutely nothing

>>20235141
those things dont really have anything to do with the subject, but it's interesting that you've equated 'materialist' with 'brainwashed faith-based masses' who believe that if they all believe a thing then it both makes it so and justifies their actions.

i think of materialism in terms of evidence-based rather than baseless (often self-serving) belief,

e.g. george floyd riots, taking it out of all political context, was a case of people wanting to loot and get free things, and they decided upon a belief which they felt morally justified their rapacity, hailing, even, the corpse as a holy martyr whilst the evil priests (news anchors, politicians) at their pulpits (tv news desks) looked on basking in their power to direct the mob at their whim.

BUUUUUUT this has zero to do with the "well, even murder can be justified in that at least it forces some legislative action" point that i was making; in the sunny-side-up sense of the thing.

>>20230414
this.

>>20233801
>>20235164
ha, he self-refutes and doesn't realize it; in a way you could read that entire paragraph as highly praising suicide in that suicidal people are beyond all form of bribery and corruption, having nothing by which they can be bribed and corrupted.

kind of interesting actually, wonder if that was his intention

>>20235189
Ask me what kind of antidepressants I take and I'll tell you 100mg of Forestanon

There is no argument against suicide if the afterlife doesn't exist. Unfortunately we don't know that for sure. We have to remain in this earth and cultivate our spiritual strength so that whatever is transmigrated is well prepared to meet the challenges in the next incarnation.

>>20235225
>We have to remain

you say we have to wait ...but.. waiting to die! Wouldn't you rather know ASAP?

Suicide is painless.

>>20235179
>BUUUUUUT this has zero to do with the "well, even murder can be justified in that at least it forces some legislative action" point that i was making; in the sunny-side-up sense of the thing.

>even a horrible killing spree leads to reformations and advancement in law to ensure that the horrible scenario does not occur again.

You were unclear in your original statement.
Murder forcing legislative action is a moot point because legislation will not solve the problem of mass murder. Only a change of soul can. You can agree with that.

Also, I do not disagree with your characterization, but it does show evidence of a religious impulse in Man that a materialist worldview (of which the mainstream contemporary western worldview is one of many in contradistinction to a truly religious, Christian, worldview) is not sufficient to satiate.

>>20230397
by that logic so could paradise or an end to endless reincarnation or some unfathomable weirdness.

>>20235245
>Also, I do not disagree with your characterization, but it does show evidence of a religious impulse in Man that a materialist worldview (of which the mainstream contemporary western worldview is one of many in contradistinction to a truly religious, Christian, worldview) is not sufficient to satiate.
it's more of a philosophical dispute of this as to to the focus of life; being either the pursuit of truth in demonstrable evidenced-based reality (to study and understand the causes of things) vs. the pursuit of self in an intangible non-evidence-based version of reality or solipsism or autism, or whatever.. you can put this into the language of Gods Creation, if you like, where reality is 'gods creation'.

>Only a change of soul can. You can agree with that.
soul / psyche;
spiritual strength / intellectual strength

In those terms, I agree. BUT blindness towards reality will never ever lead one to study and understand the causes of "X HORRIBLE SCENARIO"so as to be able to ever change or prevent the thing from occurring again and again.

Even in terms of the worst sort of suicide; desparation or unhappiness, even this reflects on the people around the person and their inability to bother to help the person (or having caused the upset in the first place) when they could have done something about it. It's a harsh and bitter lesson for them, but even in this extreme example,you can see, a purpose is being served.

>>20235241
It brings on many changes

>>20235280
>BUT blindness towards reality will never ever lead one to study and understand the causes of "X HORRIBLE SCENARIO"so as to be able to ever change or prevent the thing from occurring again and again.

This is the only part of your response that I can agree with without qualification. It seems that a lack of religious belief (of a certain kind) does cause most human beings to go haywire psychologically. It is certainly possible that you could find God through the pursuit of truth and that he would be the answer to preventing "X Horrible scenario" from happening again. You seem to assume its impossibility.

>>20235349
it's not impossible but its improbable as the main focus, then, would not be on the cause of the situation itself but would only just touch on the situation on the periphery of thinking of the thing in relation to the focus on the god,

so by chance, with god, perhaps (the thing would be solved)

but by purposeful intent with focus on the cause, with or without god, for certain (the thing would be solved)

i mean, by all means, if a religious ritual has people doing a dance and putting seeds in the ground and if the ritual has them cover the seeds with their footwork and if this happens to plant the seeds by proxy so that the seeds grow and food produced, then great. but isnt it more simple to just tell them that they're planting seeds for the outcome of producing food? would they not want to do it in that case lol idk

in some respect i don't mind what people believe or think they're doing so long as they're physically doing good things in the world, but the problem with that is that i find that most bad things ithe world come from peoples actions who mistakenly believe that the evil theyre doing is somehow rationalized or recast as a 'very very good thing',

like the sin of pride or envy or jealousy being recast as a 'moral virtue' insolong as the 'pridefulness' is regarding the infallibility of the local religion.

i think this is one such case, re: suicide, where the religion contradicts itself; on one hand it expressly condemns suicide but it presents eternal bliss 'after death' as the sole object 'of' being alive, so it's a strange one..

i always saw the basic rejection of suicide (which is rare in that in prior history and in other places suicide was/is not treated as a criminal action) comes more from human irritation at the deceased than anything actually based within any religious story or parable or commandment. perhaps the religious persons find themselves in a position where they feel they have to argue against it? idk. it feels to me as much of a person choice as abortion; and certainly depends entirely upon context.

Its a sin

>>20230373
I am wondering how to make suicide look like a peaceful, natural death. Anyone please help.

>>20230373
Religions and States can't use and abuse you if you kill yourself. If the cow suicided, how could the farmer ever exploit it?

>>20235189
He walked off into the desert the other day and may have suicided

>>20230402
>That's why it's a crime.
Not where I live. You can be commited involuntarily if the authorities think you're actually going to do it, but technically speaking you can't be charged with a criminal offence because of a suicide attempt.

>>20235723
if you mean not damaging your appearance then suicide bags

if you mean look like you're dying in your sleep then you can create a gas leak in your house using the stove, blocking air from leaving the house, then go to sleep. or idk maybe there's some poison

>>20236233
He didn't kill himself he walked into the desert to clear his head. It's where his journey started before the forest. He's a desert rat we just call him forestanon because that's what he was known as back in the day when he was able to post here.

I would rather struggle until my inevitable demise then cut it short.

>>20235723
>make suicide look like a peaceful, natural death
by committing suicide you simply pass your suffering onto someone else, we all have to endure the right until the very end
>>20234883
maybe it is, so what? I resent the fact that i had a normal life taken away from me, because i had no choice in the matter. How do i overcome this feeling? I'd be delighted if you knew

>>20236550
>by committing suicide you simply pass your suffering onto someone else
Not the anon you're replying to but I don't think this is true in every case, some people have truly nobody who cares about them, no friends nor family members. If those people killed themselves nobody would care, at most they'd spend a few moements in the minds of the policemen and the cleaners who'll enter the deceased's house to recover his corpse once the neighbours start complaining about the smell, but that's about it.

Suicide is the ultimate expression of bodily-autonomy.

>>20236550
>by committing suicide you simply pass your suffering onto someone else

Not really. You've, maybe, induced emotional suffering onto someone, but "your" suffering is only encapsulated within you, it cannot be transferred. Someone becoming sad at your suicide is not the same as your suicidal feelings.

>>20230373
Like almost everything else, it all goes back to the oldest parts of our brains. Those that developed when we were still animals.
Ask yourself what is the main objective of every animal that ever existed, and you'll understand why suicide awakens, almost like a reflex, an ancient fear within yourself and others.

>>20230373
For me at least, because its usually not very honorable. Instead of adressing whatever it is that brought you to this poin, you opt out. If you have no outstanding debts or people who rely on you and you care about them as well, I guess its fin though. Independent recluse eccentrics can kill themselves all they want. I think suicidals should first make an attempt to distance themselves and be on the up and up before doing the deed.

>>20236550
I have been ill for years and was filled with bitterness, but I then had several experiences which proved the existence of the Christian God to me, as they were verified by a third party. By this I mean seeing in my minds eye exactly what another is seeing halfway around the globe among other more definitive experiences. I could not be an atheist any longer, and there is a certain clarity and peace that comes to you when you realize God exists. I cannot prove it to you as nobody could prove it to me systematically. It has to be experienced firsthand.

>>20237554
oh, so you finally broke with reality, huh?

>>20237662
This is precisely why we will indeed reach an impasse when discussing religious matters. You have to be open to religious experience before you can have it. It is not possible according to a materialist paradigm for me to see something as a vision and then have it correspond with what another person sees elsewhere in the world, especially if I am not in direct contact with this person during the vision and I only receive a recording of them describing their experience after the fact (which removes the possibility of “the power of suggestion”).

>>20230733
Also, even if one removes the implication of universal ethics, it still applies!

>>20236301
Underrated answer.
There is either suffering and struggle, just suffering, or the void of death. Those are your options.

>>20237728
>You have to be open to religious experience
what exactly does that entail? I have an open mind, i simply see no use for God. it's all cope to me, believing some God somewhere will give me anything without something in return.

>>20230373
Something that troubles me is that death as it's usually conceptualized in the typical materialist/physicalist worldview is incoherent.
In your first person subjective experience you have never not been conscious or aware (I use these interchangeably). No one has ever experienced deep sleep or generally being unconscious; it's one moment conscious, the next moment still conscious but it's 8 or so hours later (or you're in a dream), and you infer an absence of consciousness from context. But subjectively, consciousness has always been present.

It makes no sense to call death eternal sleep or endless nothingness and oblivion. Logically because these concepts are incoherent, and empirically because the absence of consciousness can't be experienced. Saying it's just like---or the same---nothingness before you were born makes no sense either, as far as I can remember I didn't experience anything then so how can death "be like that", there is nothing for it to be like. And how can "before" or "after" apply to nothingness. It's neither before nor after because it isn't anything at all so it can't be placed in time.

So then how can, in subjective experience, consciousness/experience not continue after conventional objective death? The notions of consciousness coming into being and then ceasing to be aren't consistent with direct experience. After death does our consciousness "time skip", like with sleep, to somewhere else? Is there just nothing but pure consciousness/subjectivity and no objective experience? I'm not religious but an "afterlife" or "rebirth" of some kind seems more plausible than the concept of absolutely nothing, absence of consciousness, and total end of being, both logically and empirically.
I know Schope talks about this in the essay, and maybe I need to read it again, but I don't remember it being all that satisfactory. But I don't really know what would.

>>20230414
Cioran is a basic bitch

>>20238762
No, that's the point. You end. You're personal experience ends. Whatever new arises is not you thus consciousness that's just something but not rebirth.

>>20233801
I do believe in Euthanasia in certain circumstancies, but this was beautifully written.

>>20238984
I guess it depends on what you consider "you" or "I" to really be. I didn't mean to imply that my personal mind, body, character etc continues. I agree that my current individual experience ends, but I don't think "my" consciousness/experience itself ends.
It just seems incoherent to me to say that consciousness/experience can start or end. If from the first person subjective perspective consciousness ceases to be at death, then that absence obviously can't be known. Consciousness can never be known to have ended, because obviously that would require consciousness to know which would mean it hasn't ended. But if consciousness can never be known to have ended then how can we say it ends? And if we've never had the experience of consciousness coming into being then how can we say it ever wasn't present? As far as we can know, any before or after life, and birth and death, are merely concepts.
There might not be rebirth/reincarnation or a Christian kind of afterlife, but maybe something more like a void of absolutely nothing objective, but still the impersonal consciousness/experience of nothing, or of itself which is like a kind of no-thing.
but yeah idk

>>20236301
Then you haven't suffered you insufferable teenager.

>>20240060
To be fair the opposite opinion would belong more to a teenager.

>>20234830
He's romanian, no matter how badly he wished he wasn't

>>20240148
I hope you get chronic pain.

>>20240060
I'm already here why would i cut any of this short?

For all we know there is nothing on the other side

>>20239334
You haven't proven consciousness, that's the key; you are using an inductively derived model to infer its only endurance. You create the phenomena 'consciousness' by comparing your periods of non-consciousness with your conscious periods. Thus, inductively, you can only say that it exists at times.

The best way to do away with consciousness is simply to ask, 'what does it do?' I mean really, how does it differentiate you in anyway from anything else you see? From animals? From plants? Seeds lie dormant for centuries sometimes before shooting—what's that but a period on unconscious preparation?
You have to accept it all as necessary. There was no way for you to 'be' but yourself. The statement 'I wish i'd been born someone else' is a meaningless one derived from a mental heuristic which 'imposes' an 'I' on the external world, specifically to render orderly social, propertied, intercourse possible. 'You' are what you are. There is nothing deeper, it just feels as there is.

>>20230373
Kill yourself then

The older I get the more appealing suicide becomes and the idea of death becomes less scary. When I was younger just thinking about dying would make my heart jump.

The only reason I haven't killed myself is because I don't want to sadden my family. The rest is complete cope, I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had nobody in my life who cared about me, and I'm not even particularly unhappy. Life just isn't really worth the trouble

>>20234861
>the terrible anguish and oppressive darkness that characterizes the soul of a suicide
Not necessarily. I see suicide as a hopeful possibility, a light out of the tunnel

An hero is based. It is nature's way of cleaning the gene pool.

>>20230482
Correct.
>>20231452
Knowing right and wrong doesn't mean people always choose what is right.

>>20230773
By the time you realise, the bulk of the damage is already done, and the trauma of actually doing it is often worse than just riding life out. That's my take anyway.

>>20241580
I don’t have anyone that would care, but I also don’t have to work for now and spend all my time in escapist media so that it’s at least a neutral experience. If I lose a bunch of money and wind up needing to work I’ll hopefully have the strength to rope.

>>20241477
You may be right but I don't really follow. I don't have to prove consciousness/experience, it's immediately apparent and self-evident. To deny consciousness or experience is to affirm it. This isn't to say that what is experienced is necessarily what it appears to be, but just that there is experiencing. Using terms like consciousness is also a concession, I don't intend to reify it.

I don't really agree that I'm comparing periods of non-consciousness with conscious periods because I have never had anything but conscious periods. There is nothing to compare with. From the subjective view, consciousness "exists" at ALL times. I didn't really articulate myself well before and kinda shoehorned in the afterlife stuff so I'll try rephrase. What I'm saying is that no one can ever experience the absence of consciousness, so if death is the eternal absence of consciousness death can never be known. So in your first person subjective experience—which is all you ever know—your experience is that you were never born and will never be dead, that you always were and always will be conscious/experiencing.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "accept it all". I agree that wanting to be someone else is nonsensical. I agree that I am what I am and couldn't be otherwise. But then maybe our disagreement might be about what I am.

my friends, I pray for you

There's no point doing it given that you're going to die eventually anyway. You might as well jerk off, be comfy and read books meanwhile.

>>20241580
My family's shit, desu. I'm just a giant fucking coward.

God, I just wish I had—something—to give me some reason to go on. We face, daily, the most agonising of existential crises; why can't we do it in someone's arms? Hand to hand? I just want to have a brief reprieve. A moment to recharge.

>>20243408
We can't see eye to eye. If you believe consciousness to be a phenomena, it's already too late, in that the term naturally denotes a transcendental phenomena; which, granted sufficient explication, shall provide a ground to draw whatever transcendental conclusion out of it that one wishes.

We only know ourselves by comparison with others. What you conceive as consciousness, is really a purely negative assertion, in that it negates what you have phenomenally experienced as non-consciousness. You have to experience sleep to be able to define consciousness as something at all.

My point RE determinism, was simply that, given a materialist view, consciousness must arise in each and every human, separately. *that is, the phenomena you think consciousness, and I think is no quantitatively different from any other material process.) Thus there can be no comparison of separate consciousnesses as similar, for they are all completely different.

If you follow Schopenhauer's thought, you'll realize death and birth are objectively meaningless. The essence (Will) that everything is is timeless and spaceless. What does occur is the existence of a new conscious, a new mind that individualizes the world (the way these two realities coexist is beyond the limits of our comprehension). Anyway, Schopenhauer posits that because of this suicide shouldn't be seen as a solution to suffering. But he did condone people who committed suicide BECAUSE they (their consciousness) couldn't mentally endure the suffering. At least that's how I understood it.

>>20230414
>Life is horrible, existence is pain
>Okay so kill yourself
>Uh... Uhh.... Well... Uhh... Actually like hm... Life is so bad that hm... Hold on... Is so bad that even... Even killing yourself won't fix how bad it is... Uhhh...

>>20233801
>The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world.
Based Solipsistic Catholic

>>20243408
You seem to believe that because you always find yourself conscious, you will always be conscious.

But if you apply the anthropic principle, you have always found yourself alive because when you are no longer alive, you can no longer find yourself alive.

>>20243915
If I understand you correctly, I don't think we disagree as much as it might seem. For now I'll stick to a materialism/physicalism framework. I don't think consciousness is any kind of observable or perceivable thing or object. I don't mean to imply any transcendental phenomena any more than materialism already does, in that under materialism what we experience is not the objective physical world "out there" in itself but a kind of subjective/mental/brain-generated model of it.

By consciousness I mean that which perceives. It is for "me" the awareness of writing this, and for "you" the awareness of reading this, regardless of if that awareness is an illusion caused by a multiplicity of physical processes unique to each individual or not. It's the closest most apparent thing to you because it is "you". By which I don't mean to necessarily imply consciousness precedes the brain, or that your character or your body/brain is not you, but that our most basic sense of self—that which we intuitively identify as—is the knowing of our experience.
But we cannot possibly know the absence of our experience, so I still feel there's a sense in which we don't ever die. Of course we die objectively from the perspective of others, and perhaps do cease to be entirely with no kind of rebirth or afterlife, but in our individual subjective experience death can never happen.

To put it in context of the OP, most people who commit suicide want relief from suffering, but you can't get relief in death, because there's not even the absence of suffering, there's absolutely nothing at all to get and no one to get it.

I feel that my main point still stands even if it's true that personal experience ends with the death of an individual. Perhaps the dissatisfaction I feel about this comes from in some way trying to experience the absence of experience, which by definition can't be done. And just to clarify the tone, I appreciate the responses. I'm asking questions more than I am making claims.

>>20244384
My post above might be of interest.
I think I get what you're saying and you're probably right and I'm confusing myself with semantics, but there's something about it that just isn't satisfying.
Since what you're saying is kinda my point; I've always found myself conscious because I could not possibly find myself not conscious.

>>20244429
So while my conscious will likely objectively end and cease to be entirely, subjectively it can't.

>>20230373
It honestly seems like the only rational choice a person can make in this world. Everything else seems like a cope or a form of self delusion

Enough. Work out, eat healthy, get a STEM degree. You refuse to accept personal responsibility.

>>20230414
I would say that, in my depression, the tragedy is only being able to kill yourself once!

>>20243438
based comfy poster.

>>20235544
But when I look back upon my life it's always with a sense of shame. I've always been the one to blame for everything I long to do.

>>20230373
The fear of death to begin with, in that someone who opts out of life in exchange for a cessation of pain must be crazy. Silly I know.

However there is always at least something to live for. The biggest questions that are left over is what is worth dying for? If you have nothing worth dying to protect, why are you even alive?

>>20238098
>it's all cope to me, believing some God somewhere will give me anything without something in return.
There is nothing you can give Him because everything is already His. This is what is meant by the idea of God's grace, but this is beside the point. Openness to religious experience means not only suspending disbelief at the moment but genuinely believing in God as a necessary precondition to religious/mystical experience.

>>20244593
This is too practical. You must be a sensor.

>>20230373
Suicide is loser behavior. Pessimists are literal mentally deranged morons, and losers for that matter too, especially the "pessimist philosophers" and antinatalists who fail to kill themselves. Tolstoy stomps of any pessimism.

>>20243884
Meditate, anon. Drink deep form the well of self reflection and find what it is in your heart that you love. Whatever that thing is, its worth fighting for, if not living for. Death comes to us all. It is the one great inevitability every child faces at the end of their journey. Along the way there are a multitude of missed opportunities, self criticism that stretches the strings of your heart until it seems as if there is only a single note left in the song of your existence. Suffering. It is a false note. The droning tone that will drive you mad. But so long as you believe in what you love, and become willing to fight, to sweat, to bleed for that love, even die for it, that droning note may still become a symphony of action on your behalf.

Regardless of how shitty things are, of how terrible the time wasted feels weighing upon your consciousness, you still have free will. Set your will to a goal. Start small. We ourselves begin life as two separate wholes become one. The smallest of cells, at odds that most think impossible. We have won the lottery called existence. Strive towards making that existence matter. To yourself if no one else.

>>20244817
is it truly their fault for existing in this way? what sane soul would choose to be this way?

>>20244817
This "if you're so antinatalist why don't you just kill yourself lol" meme is so transparent and cringe. Antinatalism is concerned with starting new life, not with continuing yours.
It's true that a lot of antinatalists come to the position solely through depression, but you can be antinatalist and still love and affirm YOUR life. The problem is that you cannot guarantee your children will feel the same about life, and you cannot know if they would be ok with taking that risk before it's too late. You should be antinatalist lest you risk bringing another pessimistic loser into existence.
I don't even consider myself antinatalist and I understand this basic premise.

>>20244862
It's their incoherent choice, they are sick people who need treatment.
>>20244901
>meme
It's not a meme, it's just how it is. It is physically impossible to be an antinatalist or pessimist and not come into a confrontation with your own existence. The very philosophy by which you live assumes that your very own existence is either a mistake, or leads to suffering. Why do you proceed then? Either you're a loser by your own metric, or your philosophy is insane. Pessimists are mentally deranged people in dire need of treatment.

>>20244949
have you read Schopenhauer?

>>20244979
Yes, back when I was an edgy kid.

>>20244949
>It is physically impossible to be an antinatalist or pessimist and not come into a confrontation with your own existence.
I agree. But that confrontation doesn't necessarily entail suffering itself or the belief that your existence was a mistake.
>The very philosophy by which you live assumes that your very own existence is either a mistake, or leads to suffering.
Depends on the form of antinatalism. I don't think calling existence a mistake makes any sense, because in a world where existence couldn't possibly be intentional then it's meaningless to call existence a mistake.

There's another interpretation of the Cioran quote posted earlier in the thread: “It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.” You always "kill yourself too late" because coming into existence is too late, any suffering you then experience is irreversible, and it's not inherently pessimistic to say that you will suffer in life. And there's no reversible way to know if death is a better alternative.
It's simply a fact that existing leads to suffering of some kind, it's unavoidable. You can believe that it would logically have been better odds for you to have never come into existence, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't enjoy living or now have to deny your life. However, it should inspire compassion and consideration for your theoretical non-existent kids.

But again, I'm sympathetic to antinatalism and enjoy entertaining ideas I'm intuitively opposed to, but don't really buy it.

>>20230482
War is necessary for peace. War is good.

>>20245018
No wonder you didn't understand a thing

>>20244949
>It is physically impossible to be an antinatalist or pessimist and not come into a confrontation with your own existence.
Yes, which is why suicide can be just as distasteful to the pessimist as it is to anybody. This is such a meme argument that you award the antinatalists points each time its posted.

The point is not forcing others to choose suicide, which is not an act without its emotional and mental baggage.

>It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and
may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the
pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how
this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the
pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as
betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a
chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the
amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having
been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only
means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone
would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases
them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the
pessimist, then they are mistaken.

- Ligotti, The Conpiracy Against The Human Race

>But as he stands before imminent death, he grasps its nature also, and the cosmic import of the step to come. His creative imagination constructs new, fearful prospects behind the curtain of death, and he sees that even there is no sanctuary found. And now he can discern the outline of his biologicocosmic terms: He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities.

>From this moment on, he is in a state of relentless panic.

- Zapffe, The Last Messiah

>>20244949
>It is physically impossible to be an antinatalist or pessimist and not come into a confrontation with your own existence.
Yes, which is why suicide can be just as distasteful to the pessimist as it is to anybody. This is such a meme argument that you award the antinatalists points each time its posted.

The point is not forcing others to choose suicide, which is not an act without its emotional and mental baggage.

>It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the
pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how
this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the
pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as
betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a
chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the
amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having
been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only
means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone
would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases
them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the
pessimist, then they are mistaken.

- Ligotti, The Conpiracy Against The Human Race

>But as he stands before imminent death, he grasps its nature also, and the cosmic import of the step to come. His creative imagination constructs new, fearful prospects behind the curtain of death, and he sees that even there is no sanctuary found. And now he can discern the outline of his biologicocosmic terms: He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities.

>From this moment on, he is in a state of relentless panic.

- Zapffe, The Last Messiah

>>20244949
>It is physically impossible to be an antinatalist or pessimist and not come into a confrontation with your own existence.
Yes, which is why suicide can be just as distasteful to the pessimist as it is to anybody. This is such a meme argument that you award the antinatalists points each time its posted.

The point is not forcing others to choose suicide, which is not an act without its emotional and mental baggage.

>"It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and
may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the
pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how
this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the
pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as
betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a
chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the
amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having
been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only
means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone
would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases
them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the
pessimist, then they are mistaken."

- Ligotti, The Conpiracy Against The Human Race

>"But as he stands before imminent death, he grasps its nature also, and the cosmic import of the step to come. His creative imagination constructs new, fearful prospects behind the curtain of death, and he sees that even there is no sanctuary found. And now he can discern the outline of his biologicocosmic terms: He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities."

>"From this moment on, he is in a state of relentless panic."

- Zapffe, The Last Messiah

>>20245555
Fuck, I cannot format this right.

>>20245555
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

>>20230482
>God
Stopped reading.

>>20244407
If it's an illusion, then it's shared by all. Does this 'illusion' only occur in humans? Intelligent humans? Does it arise in dunces? Whales? Orangutans? Clever dog breeds? If consciousness is a material process, then it must be a quantative rather than a qualitative process, and thus descend in an appropriately ratioed manner from:
Human > Strong consciousness
Orangutan > Weak consciousness
Rat > very weak consciousness
And so on. In what behaviours are men differentiated from beasts? Personally, I see none; we are wholly the same, except that the success of men. born of intelligence, have enabled a surplus that has allowed a particular elite to cultivate what we know as learning. There is no other. The historical conceit has been that humans are so much more successful that animals, that there must be a distinct, qualitative difference. This is derives from a logical, and yet erroneously linear, view of universal organisation: things don't go 1, 2, 3 etc., but rather like 2, 4, 8 etc. Things increase in this world exponentially, humans have simply only noticed human exponential increases, because there are no other agents larger than humans making equally or greater apparent advances.

Humans are animals. Animals have consciousnesses as much as humans. The line between animal and single cell organisms, and their forbears, is none existent. I believe all existent quantums possess a consciousness, personally. The main thing is that I can't see in what way behaviour is affected by 'perceived' consciousness.

>>20230373
I don't get suicide because no matter what you are going to die at some point. Just tough it out because as far as you know it's all there is.
I'd rather eat wet white bread every day for every meal than to not eat at all.

>>20244780
>If you have nothing worth dying to protect, why are you even alive?
Because I fear death, like you said.

>>20230373
Ah yes, freitod.

>>20230482
This isn't because of any god, but because of evolution. Humans are animals and have evolved over the centuries of time. Moral is the projection of the animals desire to live or the survival instinct. If humans kill eachother, they can't survive. The core ethical principles of humans are grounded in nature not in some higher being.

>>20230373
What are the best books on suicide? Either about suicide, encourages suicide but not in a le reddit way, or something a suicidal person should read, etc?

>>20247031
Reading an entire book about suicide? Fuck me that's dry; I'd kill myself halfway through.

>>20230468
Deadlifts are also good for you. They grow testosterone.

>>20230373
I believe suicide is the strongest form of will one can have, since we are by instict inclined to survive, there are many cases of botched attempts at suicide where people can be seen attempting to stop themselves from dying when their death isn't inminent

>>20233801
>But the suicide insults everything on earth
Based

Jokes aside this is the only strong argument I can find against suicide but it is nothing. It fails to describe when suicide is an honorable thing such as in martyrdom. Why should somebody continue to live for anything else if their existence is a butt of somebody else's joke. This is sick.

In case anybody is reading this, just know that suicide is bad because you haven't conquered your enemies. I continue to exist upon this earth because my very existence inflicts pain and suffering upon my enemies.

>>20247325
I like your mindset, but what if your enemy is yourself?

>>20236550
>by committing suicide you simply pass your suffering onto someone else

Why does the individual commiting the action care? Part of the anti suicide arguments always end up "muh people think of them bro." Absolute moralfagging.

>>20247331
Make him suffer. That's where you close /lit/ and get >>/fit/

Not for the tone of your body but to torture it over and over. He is an enemy that deserves that torture. Distance yourself from the pain and you will become the monster you always wanted.

>>20247351
what about doing tasks you wouldn't like to do? Like being a shy dude giving a conference

>>20246755
>The core ethical principles of humans are grounded in nature not in some higher being.
Nature also decreed that rabbits should devour their young, children should get cancer, and that parasitic larvae should devour caterpillars from the inside out, so frankly I wouldn't listen to a thing it has to say in terms of ethical advice

>>20230482
true. Human intuition triumphs all.

>>20230482
Objective morality objectively does not exist. An individuals morals are a reflection of their self-interest.

>>20247357
You are the doer of what you decide to do, what you consume, and where you go. Suffer by doing what you always wanted to be and do. We all have ambitions my friend. But we are too lazy to do them. So in other words, go so them.

>>20230373
From what I understand, suicide is the ultimate affirmation of the will. Where as suffering is characterized by a positive force and the will being that which avoids suffering at all costs. So I guess to answer your question, it depends what your perspective of suffering is; if you’re going to just end it because things are too hard then you’re sublimated by your will. To avoid this it would make sense to change you’re perspective on suffering I.e. put yourself in someone else’s shoes, and the best way isn’t virtue signalling but actually living the life of others who suffer. Buddhist monks interestingly enough accept the only true way to end their own life is to accept the most amount of suffering possible; self immolation, self-starvation, etc.

It’s a weird reversal of the common understanding of will and suffering Nietzsche left the modern world, but it solves a lot of moral dilemmas without an absolute ‘leap of faith’ to religion.

>>20247631
Who the hell cares about "suffering in the shoes of others." Suicidal folks are motivated by the ego and that's a good thing. No suicidal person wants to hear a moralfagging response because a suicidal man is at his most demoralized. He doesn't care about the "greater good."

Instead, suicidal people need to read these to remoralize themselves.
>>20247325
>>20247351

>>20247646
>my reason to live is to conquer others physically.
>my reason to live is to conquer others socially.
>my reason to live is to conquer others economically.

You can see how this line of reasoning falls short, especially since it means that it can only serve a few people by necessity and excludes the disenfranchised. Nothing wrong with /fit/ /lit/ as you are denying your will by choosing to suffer through exercise and learning, for most that’s enough to change your perspective on suffering like I said; doesn’t mean you have to go to Uganda and sleep in uncle Gongo’s hut. You can see even your language is still just your will attempting to avoid submitting yourself to suffer, very Neitzschean and very modern, in fact. Anyways, start with a couple of schopey’s essays and it will be put in better words than I have been able to.

>>20247693
>it can only serve a few people by necessity and excludes the disenfranchised

Actual slave morality

>>20247530
I'm not saying nature is ethical from the human perspective, I'm saying that the human ethical code is based on human survivability, the brain/or society over 100k+ years has decided what's ethical.
> rabbits etc
How does your brain work? Rabbits have no concept of ethics, or at least like we know it.

>>20230373
Suicide is the cowards way out. You WILL be either pitied (if you were loved) or forgotten. It can never be dignified when your using it to escape

>>20247325
I'm a depressed loser on neetbux with no ambition and no hope for life
I keep existing as a living insult to wagies

>>20230482
I didn't give consent to be put here in the first place

>>20230397
bet you are wrong, wanna prove me wrong? do it then faggot

>>20247954
>I'm saying that the human ethical code is based on human survivability, the brain/or society over 100k+ years has decided what's ethical.
So basically “ethics” are useless for anything besides keeping decomposing DNA machines alive, lol

>>20236237
So you go to prison without a trial

>>20230373
Suppose it's acceptable if you are living life by yourself. But if you have anybody close to you or somebody depending on you, you're an immature selfish prick and quite frankly a despicable human being.

>>20246063
I don't think I disagree with you here, and I don't think you're arguing against anything I've intended to say. Perhaps I fail to explain myself clearly enough, but I'm not sure how else to put it. Thanks for your time and the discussion though.

>>20247315
I deadlift a lot more than you twink.

>>20247325
Its not so much an argument as an observation.
Usual Chesterton puffery.
Yup, that what it be like GK.

>>20230373
Last time I went for a long hike in the wilderness I ended up stumbling upon two hot and horny lesbians who were ready to get banged

And boy did I bang them good

>>20247996
Assuming a person's experience ceases once dead: why should one care about being pitied or forgotten or about dignity, cowardice, escape, or regret where none of these concepts apply, not even their negation or absence?

You can only care about these things while you're alive. Which imo is a better and more empowering argument against suicide; you can only experience and be courageous, dignified, loved, remembered, happy, and find relief from suffering while alive. There's no end of and relief from suffering in death because there's nothing at all, not even nothing.

The irony is that what most people want from suicide can only be had while alive.

>>20230679
>The terrifying thought is what if the moment of excruciating pain right before death stretches out into eternity for a phenomenological reason we are not aware of.
Warning! This is forbidden knowledge. Don't read further! Reminds me of that certain SCP. Utterly terrifying where afterlife is where you feel the pain of maggots eating up your corpse and then bacteria breaking up what's left of you. This will happen to you if you read this.

>>20247093
I laughed.

>>20230373
Most people here are Ippolits waiting for their Prince Myshkin.

>>20230373
Death is appealing and frightening, usually not at the same time. Even though it's the same thing.

>>20247872
‘Master morality’ is precisely what the masses today seek to achieve; eternal competition and striving to own more ‘things’ then others. Nietzsche was absolute poison to this world and thinking his ideas are contrary to current state of things is laughable. There are natural hierarchies and the strong shall rule the weak as a rule, but thinking you can just ‘master’ your will to win at life is self help book level thinking.

>>20247031
The peacefull pill handbook

>>20248640
Post back.

>>20249028
Post chin.

You nerds out here do nothing but demoralize people because you don't want them to exceed the sorry state that you are in. It gives you a false sense of power. It doesn't matter who has the numbers and who has the influence. A man dwelling on suicide ideation but who snaps out of it in one way or another is a powerful man who demonstrates a better will to live than you. He makes you feel impotent.

Everything in life is a struggle, we won't at all get our way. That's okay. But to strive for greatness, no matter your sorry state is honorable. Ivory tower academics like you have no understanding of suffering.

At the end of the day, I'm motivated by helping all the men who have gone through these dark thoughts. I'm not here to demoralize them by reminding them of obvious truths, but remoralizing them with obvious truths. I pray to Heaven for their success to conquer you nerds to deliver us from the tyranny of the modern world.

>>20230402
this

We're together in this, man
U can't leave or it ruins the immersion for the rest of us.

>>20249028
>self help book level thinking
My group has always referred to Nietzsche as "Tony Robbins." Dishonest and deranged.

>>20230679
>what if the moment of excruciating pain right before death stretches out into eternity for a phenomenological reason we are not aware of
Then it probably wouldn't feel like traditional suffering. It would probably be bonkers.

All my ruminating on the nature of death has led me to the fact that if its anything, its a mixed bag and that bag is bonkers.

>>20248249
? I'm just saying ethics is a human construct like most if not everything

>>20248106
You can’t ask for consent if you didn’t exist beforehand. God thinks your existence is meaningful and worthwhile at least

>>20247336
>moralfagging
you are confusing moral relativity with personal pride and self-identification, a vastly different concept. I cannot explain this to you without delving into metaphysics, for i believe that the memory is eternal. I refuse to believe one can relieve him self from "unfinished business" within this world, because memory is eternal. Everybody that is still alive and has ever been associated with you will remember you for your weakness. It is the ultimate anti-climax. Thats the worst part about it, you won't even realize the gross significance of you mistakes until you are dead and its too late.
>inb4 muh christfag
I am merely talking from my perspective and applying my definition of life and death to the matter. I cannot claim to know what awaits myself or anyone else in the afterlife, what i do know is that i will never be willing to take the risk of my memory and a piece of my essence haunting this inferior, material world for the remainder of existence. Death is the most important event in any persons life and i would advise anyone not to let this event within your cycle to go to waste.

>>20249028
>thinking his ideas are contrary to current state of things is laughable
This anon is correct. The strong (corporations and governments) have total control over the weak (the npc masses), the will to power has been magnified to its greatest possible extent.
>but thinking you can just ‘master’ your will to win at life is self help book level thinking.
Wise as nietzsche may have been in many aspects, he was not all-knowing. The circumstances under which we live today are simply unimaginable to him, i dont believe he could have predicted the extent to which the will to power would inevitably encroach upon the innate right of individuals to express themselves in whatever way they want.
Nietzsche spoke of the Ubermensch as an ideal of society, then the nazis and world war 2 happened, which shows that society will not accompany such people as nietzsche idealized, simply because the will to power of established forces is so great, that they not only rule the material world but the spiritual world as well (nietzsche believed the scientists, humanists and empirical thinkers were the dominators of political will in his times, which is correct but he wasn't able to predict that eventually in the 20th century these same "rational" people would delve into the occult to exploit great powers that are older than the whole concept of moral relativism (plato) itself.)

We are living in the information age now, we have access to information databases that are orders of magnitude greater than those of the 19th century. Nietzsche referred to the ancients as people that lived before the time of plato and socrates, but with the knowledge of today we can go thousands and thousands of years further into the past. We have a broader sense of context that nietzsche wouldn't have been able to imagine in his wildest dreams.

Samurai taking their own lives as a form of taking control over their own fate just a little bit is very interesting to me, I kinda respect it.

>>20230373
I think people that commit suicide are highly contemptible people who shouldn't be sought after, look at the waves of suicide following the one Kurt Cobain committed, he was a fragile weak minded man with utterly disgusting views on life, culture, and women. I should go to his grave to urinate on it.

>>20247631
this was interesting, thank you

All the anti-suicide posts ITT are made by obvious larpers posturing as "strong men". Embarrassing.

>>20249920
You won't perceive this haunting memory if you are dead, thus it is irrelevant

>>20233801
This reads like prose from a man who has never suffered enough to consider suicide, because those who have been to that point are forced to go through all the mental considerations involved with it, and you end up having a pretty good ken of it by the end, whether you decide to kill yourself or not.

>>20233801
chesterton was a wordcel

>>20230373
If anyone cares about you, your suicide will hurt them. Your pain does not end, it is transferred to others. To kill yourself in this case means you are both weak and selfish.

If you are truly (independent of your own delusions) alone, suicide would perhaps be less of a sin. Nonetheless, while your death may not cause others pain, you sacrifice any chance to live virtuously before you cut your own existence short. You should live more than neutrally, nonexistence is not virtuous.

That's just my two cents anyway, maybe just a cope for my own lack of suicidal balls lol

>>20231258
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of this be that in order to live a good life one must become a murderer of the happy and the youthful?

Even if one isn't religious or spiritually inclined the advice of "Be like Noach" widely applies to people wanting a good life.
Be righteous amongst your people for the sake of doing so without reward, Why? You are meaningless as a singular unit just as a single hair won't cover a bald spot. Just do what you enjoy, don't be a faggot and be good to eachother. That will get you to heaven or whatever you want to call the return to G-d.

>>20249998
It was that or being executed anyway

>Is suicide based?

>>20230373
He felt that suicide was a copout because it is a surrender to the will. Suicide is an expression of vehemence of the will, one is defeated by it through an act of self-destruction which is caused by vehement willing. So one never truly escapes the eternal cause of suffering, that is the will. It is a false transcendence. The only way to be free of will is through the self-forgetting of aesthetic and intellectual contemplation or through buddhist-like acetic renunciation of desires.

>>20251404
>acetic
* ascetic

Not a single start will be left in the night.
The night will not be left.
I will die, and with me,
the weight of the intolerable universe.
I shall erase the pyramids, the medallions,
the continents and faces.
I shall erase the accumulated past.
I shall make dust of history, dust of dust.
Now I am looking on the final sunset.
I am hearing the last bird.
I bequeath nothingness to no one.

>>20251457
*Not a single star
fuck im retarded

>>20249207
>>20249207
>post chin
>nerds, academics
>ivory tower, no understanding of suffering
conjecture

Look, It’s painfully obvious you’ve never read read Schopenhauer and probably have only read some stuff online about Nietzsche.

>everything in life is a struggle, so strive for greatness.

It’s more important to understand that greatness comes from sacrifice; aka suffering, and not from the will itself. You can achieve it only through the denial of the will; which is the prime mover of your avoidance of suffering.

Telling others to go conquer the world is inspiring, but also does not help someone to truly understand the world. Everything object you come across is a mere representation, characterized by somebody else’s will . One can only reconcile this once he’s experienced the suffering of others; experience being the mediator of truth.

This is the path to enlightenment, I’ll leave the existential stuff to the preachers and opportunists of the world.

>>20250356
what makes you so sure?

>>20251781
It is but a guess
And even if you could perceive it, then you won't be able to communicate about it with the living, for we have never gotten such contact from the dead.

>>20230482
wrong

>>20230373
Suicide is not “based”; I know some might not believe that things can get better (they can) but from an evolutionary standpoint, it goes against everything evolution has built us up to be and do. Hardly based if you ask me.

>>20231185
piss off with your sociobiology bs

>>20230482
>Humans have divinely implant morals which is why everyone [ad populum argument, also baseless and unproven]. Everyone [repeat]. The question is why? [Faulty premise]. And the answer is, loaded-word-inherently-meaning-morally egregious is bad because it's [meaningless term] because you deprive another man of life [non-sequitur]. Life on earth serves a purpose for that man [wrong]. Likewise it is not God's order for you to prematurely deprive your own self of this life opportunity [prove it].

>>20230373
>people dying makes me personally feel sad
>I am a moral person
>clearly something that makes me sad must be immoral
That summarizes most moralfag "arguments" in general.

>>20231523
cynical and miopic, know yourself

>>20234909
>murder is not necessarily bad at all; even a horrible killing spree leads to reformations and advancement in law to ensure that the horrible scenario does not occur again. ideally anyway.
kek, very Hegelian

Suicide was always condemned in every tradition. Porphyry was suicidal until Plotinus dissuaded him and told him to get some fresh air in Sicily.

>>20243437
I appreciate it

>>20243437
fuck yourself, retard

>>20253212
>but from an evolutionary standpoint, it goes against everything evolution has built us up to be and do
This is retarded. If people do it clearly evolution hasn't built us up not to do it. Evolution isn't a conscious being.

>>20230373
All the people who killed themselves are gone. People today are the result of a selective system that’s been ticking on for x many millennium, so of course there’s going to be a massive bias towards the futile attempt to survive.

>>20254402
People don’t do it, anon. If people did, people wouldn’t be here.

>>20254495
>>20254402
Ohh, wait you mean
> if “some” people do it, evolution hasn’t
But that makes you sound like a retard so you didn’t phrase it like that. Man, if only you put the effort you spend on pretending not to be a massive plonker into simply not being a massive plonker. Something to think about.

>>20230414
dumbest fucking shit ive heard

>>20244264
"It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the pessimist, then they are mistaken."

>>20254502
Are you ESL? If someone says "people do x", the default implication is (some) people do x, not (all) people do x.

For those saying suicide would hurt those close to you...what if you are dragging them down? Perhaps better for a short period of melancholy than a continual walking reminder of life’s miseries.

>>20256341
No, anon, me be first english sandwicher. You, however, are clearly not; as the implication of a generalisation is, in fact, that is refers to a generalisation, as opposed to a specification.
Put simply: “People” doesn’t mean “some people”, rather “most people”.

>>20256442
It literally just means "a non zero number of people do x" you fucking autist. "People murder" is not an incorrect statement despite the fact that most people do not murder.

>>20231706
How old were you then and how old are you now?

>>20251781
If you did then suicide would be pointless anyway, and in that case your argument should just be that suicide doesn’t actually succeed in ending your life.

>>20256376
Grief isnt a short melancholy. It's a combination of your insides constantly churning along with being randomly stabbed in the heart whenever you notice a whole gap where the lost person should be.

>>20256376
Grief isnt a short melancholy. It's a combination of your insides constantly churning along with being randomly stabbed in the heart whenever you notice a hole or gap where the lost person should be.

>>20256449
Ah, so you were deliberately on purpose non-accidentally being retarded?
> a non-zero amount of people commit suicide, therefore the survivors won’t generally foster likeminded individuals
The exception proves the rule, my faggy friend.

>>20244848
>meditates
>reflects on the self
>comes to the conclusion that the most supreme glory can only be achieved by dying in battle, fighting for your right to survive

>>20243915
>in that it negates what you have phenomenally experienced as non-consciousness
do you have any idea what kind of physical world we live in? why people are asking about suicide in the first place?
your argument makes absolutely no sense. consciousness is the opposite of how you define it, you can't be conscious anywhere without having context. conscious is necessary for you to make sense of the relative context and how to apply yourself to it.
>You have to experience sleep to be able to define consciousness as something at all.
why? i dont understand how you make such an argument because it is unimaginable to me what any biological life would be like without sleep.

>>20244797
if i have nothing to give him, what is the point of prayer and devotion to God?

>>20243325
>but I also don’t have to work for now and spend all my time in escapist media
why are these two things related to each other for you? i dont consume any media but i have a real job, get a REAL job

>>20246755
>Humans are animals and have evolved over the centuries of time
>for tens of thousands of years all people did was murder each other
>18th century tips fedora
>evolution

bump

>>20257009
> playing chess
> opponent puts you in check
> “actually, we’re not playing chess”
Just because you dislike the outcome, it doesn’t mean you aren’t playing by the rules.

Pokemon has made too many chumps equate evolution with improvements, whereas it’s more just iteration - for better or for incestuously worse.

>>20230414
>>20244743
It means nothing Cioran is retarded garbage.

Suicide is dead, it’s never going to be mainstream again.

>>20257843
this, is true

>>20256274
I've already posted this quote ITT.
I like Zapffes reasoning better.

>>20245555

>>20230373
>Why are people so out off by suicide?
Because dying is scary. I don't think suicide is a solution, or anything good per se, but I think it's neither a bad thing (from an individualistic perspective, of course; if we think about the others, specially our loved ones, our selfish perspective will always consider suicide as a bad thing).

>>20233801
Sounds like it's written from the perspective of someone who has lived their life in supreme privilege. Only a man who could get anything he wants consider suicide an insult against everything. Most times, those who commit suicide are those who can't get something. They die for the sake of that thing, because they want it so bad. It can thus be cast an affirmation of the worthiness of some part of existence too. Chesterton's argument only works under the supposition that one can get anything.

>>20245481
Understanding mental illness is the field of psychiatry.
>>20245356
>But that confrontation doesn't necessarily entail suffering itself or the belief that your existence was a mistake.
The confrontation itself doesn't, but this confrontation is born from the discrepancy between the twisted logic that pessimists and antinatalists follow and their own existence.
>I don't think calling existence a mistake makes any sense
Me neither, yet here they are with their perverted declarations.
>in a world where existence couldn't possibly be intentional
By what strike of imagination is an intentional conception of new life unintentional?
>"It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late"
A pathetic excuse to justify the inconsistency of their insanity. For people who care an awful lot about preventing the multiplication of suffering that they perceive life as, they sure strangely keep trying to avoid the simple fact that their suicide would not only put the end to their own "suffering", but also diminish the "suffering" of the people around them by removing them off the board.
>It's simply a fact that existing leads to suffering of some kind
It's about as much of a "fact", as any other abstract philosophical aporia. The reality is that their philosophical concept of suffering is illusory, and what these insane people demand to be qualified as suffering is a mechanism of life through which it evolves itself to better endure the complications of the way of its development.

Bump

>>20245555
>which is why suicide can be just as distasteful to the pessimist as it is to anybody
Non sequitur. In a completely deranged manner these ill people claim to possess the comprehension of life that inevitably evaluates its substance as multiplication of suffering, which they then claim can be avoided for some abstract "better" end by the cancellation of its existence through initial non-birth. Yet, they then follow by proceeding to make up untenable excuses for the prolongation of theirs and everybody else's "suffering" through the continuation of life.
>Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born.
No, my dear confused and mentally crippled man, the conclusion that "anyone would be better off never having been born" does mean that the termination of life, as per "never having been born", is the direct solution to the exposure to the amount of the so-called "suffering" in this world that justifies it.
As for the Zapffe quote, it is not even attempting to pretend to make any coherent sense, but instead resorts to pure fiction, also rooted in the typical for the mental illness of pessimism twisted perception.

Bump, because the butthurt pessimist OP deleted the other thread.

>>20259918
Yeah, I deleted the thread where I was easily dismissing morons. Also why I immediately created another one. You're so insincere.

>>20230373
>Why are people so out off by suicide?

every sudoku means one less consumer, worker and tax cattle, you understand why TPTB are not going to be happy with it

it used to be because le hecking bilberino said you canT!1!!1!!

now it's because noooooooo if you kill yourself you will reduce the overall productivity of the workfoce!!!!! mr shekelstein said you can't!!!!!!!!1!!!

>>20258850
I have nothing in particular to add or against anything else you said but I can clarify this:
>By what strike of imagination is an intentional conception of new life unintentional?
In a local sense bringing someone into existence can be intentional. I meant existence in general, as antinatalists and pessimists sometimes argue that it would have been better if nothing had ever existed at all. Which may be technically true, that's not my point either way, but I don't think it's rational to then say that existence is a mistake and to resent existence itself.
I don't believe that this world and ourselves were created by a God. I think it just kinda happened. So I can't say existence is intentional because neither existence nor non-existence was intended by anything, but by that same reasoning it's meaningless to say existence is a mistake. Because it only makes sense to call it a mistake if an intention was unsuccessful, but if there are no universal intentions then there can't be any universal mistakes either.
It is somewhat of a semantical argument, but I think for certain people it can turn their focus away from resenting the fact of existence itself and move it to something more immediately useful.

suicide is the epitome of freedom and self determination. everyone should have the right, the opportunity, the courage, and the wherewithal to kill themselves when they feel the time is right. get comfy in bed, surrounded by loved ones, take the pills and drift off peacefully into eternity (or blow yourself up with a grenade while jumping out of an airplane if that's your thing)

>>20260244
I'm wasn't talking about the concept of creation of life by god, or abiogenesis, or a combination of both. I was talking about the fact that regardless of one's belief in relation to the initial genesis of the phenomenon of life, people, being alive and so in the accordance with the concept of life, are capable of making a coherent intentional decision to multiply it. This is the process against which they are trying to build their insane argument. I don't think they even go as deep as analyzing the process of abiogenesis, since they keep trying to pretend that there's some magical concept of intrinsic "suffering" that can be applied to life as a phenomenon, and on top of that can also be magically qualified as universally negative.
To be honest, I think a large portion of this mental condition comes from psychological nativity and immaturity that boils down to simply their failure to comprehend the concept of delayed gratification which in turn deludes them into believing that enduring and overcoming the complications of existence is in principle ad nihilum.

>>20233801
this man had more cope than fat cells

"If I commit suicide, it will not be to destroy myself but to put myself back together again. Suicide will be for me only one means of violently reconquering myself, of brutally invading my being, of anticipating the unpredictable approaches of God. By suicide, I reintroduce my design in nature, I shall for the first time give things the shape of my will."-Antonin Artaud

>>20260485
Too many empty loud words for someone who got scared by a disease.

>>20254402
I think suicide is nature's response to a faulty product, the same way someone depressed isn't good genetic material, therefore your immune system is suppressed so you die faster if you get sick, the only solution being your own will restoring your health.

>>20254502
anon, it was obvious he meant people, not ALL the people. goddamit anon

I don't have much to live for but I found some meaning in delicious food. Even though everything else sucks when I satiate my stomach it legitimately feels great so I should stay alive to keep that feeling going

>>20261610
>be me
>devour delicious food after getting home from a hard day's work
>gluten intolerant
>have to work the next day with a rusty asshole
life is cancer

>>20261503
Yeah but he specifically didn’t praise it like that, because
> this exception to a generalised process proves it wrong
is prime fathead logic.

>>20261723
*fraise. I’m berry disappointed in myself.

Define suicide.

>>20261610
I only realised how important food was when I realised how shitty life is. As a boy I thought the carnal pleasure of food would simply be outpaced by that of sex; youth!

Unfortunately I've never, despite my whole familys' principle interest being food, never cared for it much myself. I love milk more than anything, however.

Bump

Schopenhuer spoke some truth, like loud noises are the enemy of deep contemplation, but he also talked some rot, like want is man's natural state for nothing will ever leave you satisfied.

Over the course of a man's existence he will have times of plenty and times of lean. If you take an end-point as proof of his natural condition then the nature of man is defined by where you start and where you end your arc. Consider a man who was down and then lifts more than ever before. By this example, life's natural state is joy.

>>20261810
Willingly making your own body stop fuctioning to the point of death.
There's also philosophical suicide but that's unrelated.

>>20230373
Its honestly shit like this which will always make me laugh when people claim Nietchez and Schopenahuer weren't liberals.
Their entire ideology is utterlly grounded in the conceptualization of man as an individual unmoored ego without any nature, duty or morality inherent to it beyond the prediposition of its whim.
Nietchez is at least a bit better as he sees certian influences on human thought/action as being hedgemonic (and somewhat "worthy" of perserving; purely for subjective reasons)
but he ultimately takes up a stirner teir view on ideology (and even broadly on truth) leaving his ideology a cesspool of mental masterbation
To answer OP's question though,
it isn't
>"based"
as it assumes a false understanding of man and a false understanding of what he is meant to do.
You can ignore what you are meant to do but it will no less be what you are meant to do
And not doing it will be no less "bad" "cringe" " evil" ect
The purpose of life remains the same regardless of your opinion on it.

i hanged myself and i don't really know how i survived, since i did everything right, and all i can say about it, is just black and nothingness. this has developed a very strong will to become greater on me

>>20264432
Did it hurt? Partial suspension or did you kick a chair?

>>20264432
This. I shotgunned my head and seem to have assimilated the lead pellets into my metabolism; now all metals obey my commands.

>>20230373
mom would be sad

>>20264267
You haven't read either of them. This is the most basic bitch Hegelian misunderstanding of both of them as "le existentialists"

>>20264432
I slit my throat and it was pretty alright

Is it possible to face pessimism head on and come back with meaningful arguments? Or just cope?

>>20235059
If you kill a murderer the number of murderers remain saim

>>20243438
yes

>>20261610
Just find a way to equate satiating yourself by carnal pleasures. Oh wait, we've already have many philosophies already for those

If I ever get to off myself I'll do it in the wilderness, probably dig up a ditch where I get to rest once the deed is done, hopefully nature gets to use my body better than I ever did.
And suicide isn't 'good' or 'bad' its just a simple choice, the main problem comes when you pick a choice when the circumstances aliniate to justify said action (sudden break up, a family member dying, bad fortune) when it should be the person itself who has all the right to justify it (when the individual has found no meaningful purpose)

>>20266494
>If I ever get to off myself I'll do it in the wilderness
yes the major fuck up in suicide is go to not far enough from atheist public servants, because as soon as they find the suicidee, they will try to rescue it to feel self righteous and follow their meaningless rule book, even though there may be permanent sequels doing it (but they dont care about this), instead of letting it die

>>20266502
Yes, but I do believe that it can be justified if the suicide is comitted for the purpose of solving a temporary mischief, that is totally unrelated to the person's character but nonetheless happens. A person shouldn't be denied death if they have accomodated their world view and thoughts to justify suicide and they have done refutals and counter-arguments to these thoughts beforehand.

I'm considering suicide right now because I see no point in going on. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset about my parents finding it out and feeling heartbroken. I wish there was a way for me to communicate this feeling with them but I don't want to pollute their happiness with my bitterness. Plus there's a little hint of selfishness behind my intention to kill myself. I've never been religious or believed in God after the age of maybe 10, but I'm looking for transcendental clean slate, if such a thing exists. Eternity of nothingness does sound scary but that's when I get a little agnostic about God and start to question consciousness. If there is a spiritual, out of body element to consciousness then my suicide would be a form of escape; not from life itself but just my predicament. I'm either a coward, pedantic, or a narcissistic person. I'm also a virgin with no friends and been unemployed ever since graduation. I'm sorry this turned into a confession but to answer your question I have not read his essay on suicide but now I'm tempted to. And those are my honest thought on suicide.

>>20266547
>there's a little hint of selfishness behind my intention to kill myself
Everything can be a selfish action if given proper analysis, don't feel bad about it. If you don't tell them about it, they might feel guilty once you kill yourself.

>>20266338
depends on the strength of your will and how much suffering you are willing to bear before reaching the boiling point

>>20266547
Still don't understand this 'but my parents oh bloo hoo'. If they're so perfect as to be genuinely shaken by one's suicide, surely they're capable of some way of helping?

I've made a distinct vow to never disclose my suicidal idealations to anyone on account of a fear of there then ever being the 'we don't need to put him in strait jacket now, right?' thought processes. When you've sifted, from the totality of all possible actable possibilities, a few pertinent and high importance ones—a desire for suicide, murderous intent, earnest hatred, thievery—to someone, they shall only ever look on you again remembering these exact beliefs, and shall modulate all your current behaviours as if there were principally conditioned by those beliefs.

TL;DR: tell someone you want to an hero and they'll assume everything you later do is in some way in pursuit of that. So don't.

>>20266547
Whatever you do just bear one thing in mind, whether you believe in God or not: Suicide, death in general, is not any sort of escape. Thinking like that is falling into an equally erroneous superstition as belief in eternal hell or heaven.

>>20233801
The first five lines are based, didn't read the rest

>>20230414
if you wait too long you could end up being a mental hospital or something where they know how to keep people from suicide and keep you in a constant state of suffering in name of cure
you could turn into a drone and not recognize yourself most of the time

>>20266807
I'm never telling them ever and putting them through that dilema. But I get your point about how people assume more than what seems healthy.

>>20266972
Yeah I was in a mental hospital last month and now I don’t recognize myself. I have almost no control over my life. Sheer fortune has kept me on the course thus far

>>20266825
I've always been wary of superstitious people, too silly for me. I'm an atheist so concerns about heaven or hell are out of question. I get agnostic at the thought of eternal nothingness because even though I've made up my mind I love life and I'm scared of dying. My fear arises from something primal like the other anon said.
I want to escape MY life because it I see no point in struggling. If it was a switch I would have flipped it right away and have gotten done with it

>>20267374
I don't want to put words in the other anon's mouth, but what I think he's getting at is that we tend to reify "eternal nothingness" into a thing or place. But it's not a place you go. If death is "eternal nothingness" then there is no experience whatsoever, so there's not even "eternal nothingness". There isn't anything, there isn't even the absence of everything, you can't really even say there's nothing because there's not even nothing. You can see how it's difficult if not impossible to conceptualize this accurately.

But if there is this "eternal nothingness" after death then there's no need to be scared because there will be nothing scary and nobody to be scared, yet also no peace. But the other side of the coin is that there's a sense in which there's no escape either, because you could never know that you died; there would no sense of having escaped. If "eternal nothingness" after death is the case and you want to escape this life, you have to do it IN this life.

>>20230373
> why are people so put off by suicide

because it's a self-destructive ideology that takes life and leads it nowhere...?

see a therapist anon.

>>20230373
Try it

>>20231523
join the military instead, anon. you can get tuition payment for your science degree after serving your country.

your life will have more meaning if you do so.

>>20268370
>If "eternal nothingness" after death is the case and you want to escape this life, you have to do it IN this life.
That would only be a temporary escape.

>>20236233
>>20236287
How do you know this?

>>20269036
Yeah there's no real "absolute escape", unless that's what shit like Nirvana is supposed to be and it's real. But the way I see it there's not really any escape at all in death, but there is a kind of limited escape in "escaping" your current life by reinventing or overcoming yourself or that which is driving you to suicide. Obviously not saying that's easy though.

>>20230402
>When one person opts out of life, they all start considering it. Suicide makes the living insecure. That's why it's a crime.
By far the most common reaction to when a person commits suicide is that it makes the people around them contemplate what they could have done to prevent it. Your description implies that people are usually tempted towards admiring suicide which is the opposite of the case.

>>20268481
i dont wanna be force vaccinated

>>20230482
>everyone knows murder is bad.
No it isn't.
So if all knows and I refute your claim, then your claim is bollocks and you are just another retarded christkike.

>>20268481
>Dying for zog will give you meaning.
Kike

Was suicide based? Is it based now?

>>20271145
How would you like me to murder you and your entire fucking family?

>>20271271
I have an AR - 15. LET ME SEE YOU TRY.

>>20230373
God has a plan for all people still on earth. Suicide, outside of heroically directly sacrificing oneself for others, isn't God's will. Almost all who do it gravely underestimate the amount of pain and mourning that will occur on their loved ones. It absoleutly ruins parents. Yet the average suicide contemplater deludes themselves into believing it won't be a big deal or their parents will get over it somewhat quickly. I had a friend who would say stuff like that before killing himself. But he was so wrong, and his parents were absoleutly emotionally wrecked for years. I still pray for their healing and it's been nearly a decade.

>>20271271
Logically fallacious response.

>reads schopenhauer
>reads nietzche
>dedicates life to mostly intellectual pursuits
You're all based. Some just haven't realized it yet. I'm not even against suicide either, in the grand scheme of things it's really just going to hurt those closest to you for a while. When the void comes for me I welcome it but for the while I'll have fun here.

>>20248801

>>20264267
This is what only reading anecdotes on 4chan does to a nibba

>>20264432
Yeah the void doesn't scare me at all. I welcome it. Pure peace.

>>20254320
Apart from Hellenic, Roman, Germanic, And Japanese ones sure all of them

>>20272382
Hara-kiri is turbo based

>>20230414
suicide is "Based" only if you're on the verge of dying by a teribile disease that eat your body and sanity or getting raped/torture by someone without chance of escape