/lit/ - Literature

there is no such thing as a "canon"

>>20206642
That's a bit of a stretch. Are Averroes and Avicenna part of the Western Canon, too? They surely had an equally large, if not larger, influence on Europe. I have the feeling you really like the philosophy of Ibn Arabi and that you want to turn him into some sort of universal figure, so that you can appropriate his teachings without commiting yourself to Islam. Well I suppose you can be inspired by him, but he was very much a Muslim and saw no salvation outside Islam.

>>20206677
Averroes isn't good and Avicenna is Persian. Ibn Arabi was Andalusian. Ibn Arabi is western canon.

>>20206677
why wouldnt they be? I think a lot of islamic golden age thinkers are wrongly left out of the western cannon.
Al Ghazali's theoretical work on economy was also insanely influential on Adam Smith for example.

Sorry, only the Koran and One Thousand and One Nights are in the Western Canon, take it up with Bloom.

>>20206700
What does being Andalusian have to do with it? Yes, it's Iberia, but it was a different world, a different civilization. Unless I'm mistaken he was a Moor, a Berber, and he would travel. He spent substantial time in the Middle East.
In any case he isn't properly occidental in extraction, language or culture, more importantly he engaged and was a part of the oriental world. He cannot be thought to be western no matter how many people he influenced.

>>20206714
Fair enough, you could make a really good case that they they do belong to the Western Canon. Well if you're including them then sure, maybe Ibn Arabi will fit in too.

>>20206730
>Yes, it's Iberia, but it was a different world, a different civilization.

Cope. And by your logic Christianity isn't western.

>>20206729
I think on this one Bloom would admit his mistake. He wrote an introduction to the English edition of Henry Corbin's book on Ibn Arabi. Here's a passage where he's praising Ibn Arabi's description of prayer.

>>20206642
Schopenhauer also knew, read and loved the Upanishads. The Upanishads are not part of the "Western canon". /thread

>>20206813
Dog shit analogy.

>>20206817
That's all you have to say? lmao cope

>>20206825
One is Indian, the other was born in the literal west. Dog shit analogy.

Cue the predictable retard saying, "But how can Ibn Arabi be western if he was born in Spain and spent his life travelling along the Mediterranean? haha btfo /thread"

>>20206845
That's like saying people from Vladivostok are culturally Korean because the city is located near Korea. Just because the Iberian Peninsula is located to the West of Rome doesn't mean that any and all intellectuals that were born there were culturall Western. The other anons pointed out that your guy belonged to the Islamic world.

>>20206865
He's a product of Andalusian civilization, and good. He's western canon. Spain doesn't get to not be western just because you don't like the implications.

>>20206970
> He's a product of Andalusian civilization
Andalusian civilization was a hybrid mix of native Christian Europeans as the underclass, combined with a foreign culture of Muslims overlords and their servants etc controlling things at the top level, and as soon as they could the Spaniards kicked out this foreign domineering culture from their lands. I think it’s a stretch to consider Ibn Arabi a product of western canon/culture when he only could have existed during a temporary imposition of a foreign culture upon Spain by force of arms. And Ibn Arabia writings are influenced much more by prior Muslim writings and thinkers than by any non-Muslim influences.

>>20207031
>I think it’s a stretch

I don't care.

>>20206642
no, this is too confusing
Ibn Arabi is part of the islamic civilization which is not culturally western, only the jews can be said to be western

>>20206642
I read some translated text from him, sounds like buddhism

>Most initiates say that Gnosis, or Knowledge of Allah comes afterFanâ el-wujûdiandFanâ el-fanâ'i, that is, by the effect of the extinction of existence and the extinction of this extinction.However, this opinion is completely false.There is an obvious error here.Gnosis does not require the extinction of existence (of the self) or the extinction of this extinction;for things have no existence, and what does not exist cannot cease to exist.To say that a thing has ceased to exist, that it no longer exists, is equivalent to affirming that it existed, that it enjoyed existence.So, if you know your soul, that is to say yourself, if you can conceive that you do not exist and, therefore, that you are not extinguished, then you know Allah, otherwise not. [...] This is why the Prophet said “He who knows his soul (ie himself) knows his Lord”. He says again “I have known my Lord through my Lord.The Prophet of Allah wanted to make it clear by these words that you are not you, but He;Him and not you;that He does not enter into you and you do not enter into Him;that He does not come out of you and you do not come out of Him.I do not want to say that you are or that you possess such and such a quality.I mean that you absolutely do not exist, and that you will never exist either by yourself or by Him, in Him or with Him.You cannot cease to be, because you are not.You are Him and He is you, without any dependence or causality.If you recognize in your existence this quality (ie nothingness) then you know Allah, otherwise you don't.

>>20207295
Sorry, chudsweatty, if the Koran is western canon, so is Ibn Arabi.

Bloom may have forgotten to add Ibn Arabi to the list, but he's there. Bloom called Ibn Arabi's creation myth "one of the most extraordinary I've ever encountered" and saw a lot of beauty and depth in his work, on a level comparable to Shakespeare.

Ibn Arabi referred to himself as "the sun from the west."

>>20207312
You should understand that when Ibn Arabi says non-existence, that actually means existence in the mind of God. He considers existence to be imaginal, which isn't to say it's nothing/maya. Anyone who thinks Ibn Arabi is Buddhist is a midwit.

>>20207353
he clearly refers to anattā

>>20207353
No he's saying it's imaginal, not a concrete material reality, but an imaginal as real as dreams, visions, and prayers, and of course the barzakh, wherein you still have a body. There are hundreds of passages where Ibn Arabi argues against anatta nihilism and affirms that the body and personality are preserved in the highest unity with God. Ibn Arabi considers them mercies and doesn't believe God gives you them for no reason.

To affirm your non-existence for Ibn Arabi just means to realize that your essence is to be a thing in God's imagination and this is immutable. And guess what is existence? God. So God = existence, humans = non-existence (existence in the mind of God). He's making a sharp demarcation between God and the person. Every Ibn Arabi scholar who doesn't suck off Rene Guenon acknowledges this. Read Itzutsu or Yahia at the very least.

>>20207409
>The Gnostics are ranged in hierarchy: the knower of his Lord and the knower of his Self; the knower of his Self is stronger in Gnosis than the knower of his Lord.

You are not wrong but there is a higher station than servanthood and Ibn Arabi acknowledged that, read the quote above

from Rumi:
>"This is what is signified by the words Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God." People imagine that it is a presumptuous claim, whereas it is really a presumptuous claim to say Ana 'l-'abd, "I am the slave of God"; and Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God" is an expression of great humility. The man who says Ana 'l-'abd, "I am the servant of God" affirms two existences, his own and God's, but he that says Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God" has made himself non-existent and has given himself up and says "I am God," that is, "I am naught, He is all; there is no being but God's." This is the extreme of humility and self-abasement."

>Every Ibn Arabi scholar who doesn't suck off Rene Guenon acknowledges this

René Guénon was wrong with his idea that current traditions are equal but let's not turn into his opposite and make out of tasawwuf some sort of christian passive mysticism

>>20207452
>You are not wrong but there is a higher station than servanthood and Ibn Arabi acknowledged that

Incorrect take. Again, the quote you're using is just affirming that mystics who know themselves are better than the mystics who pretend they don't exist and only focus on God.

>some irrelevant shit about Rumi because no better arguments about Ibn Arabi

Not responding to that.

>>20207452
>and make out of tasawwuf some sort of christian passive mysticism

If you mean Eckhartian mysticism, then no. Ibn Arabi agrees neither with his overused apophaticism, nor his denial of self and the world. But Ibn Arabi affirms the importance of the self and the body in mysticism in ways you could parallel with certain Christian mysticism that believe in the importance of the body/self because God was incarnated as human.

>>20206642
No they weren't you fucking retarded shitskin. Esoteric themes existed long before goatfucking retards may have shared them.

>>20207584
Vita Nuova is a direct rip-off of The Interpreter of Desires. Even the same metaphors are employed.

>>20206859
He's a muslim, not a white westerner you fucking retard. Guenon is a simp for sandniggers and even he says OPs faggot thesis is incorrect.

>>20207596
No it isn't. It's an initiatic symbolic language which both of them were aware of and all true initiates will recognise. This is entry level stuff in terms of esoteric or "mystic" writing. Read what Guenon had to say, he was initiated into suffism and lived in the middle east but says this hypothesis is still wrong. To begin to understand the sylbolic language you could also read some essays from Evola's intro to magic. Volume 2 in particular has an essay devoted to this, but all books refer back to it often.

>Hence for Schuon, Vedanta was something like a key unlocking the very same truths found at the heart of Ṣūfism, truths only obscured by the limitations of Islamic theology. On this point he elaborated, “we take our stand on Shankaracharya [the founder of Advaita Vedanta], not on an Ibn ʿArabī; the latter we accept only insofar as we find in him something of the Vedanta” (Lipton 2018: 138).

>In line with nineteenth cenutry Orientalist and German Romanticist understandings of language family and race, Schuon believed that Ṣūfism suffered from a Semitic “subjectivism,” and hence it lacked the objectivity to “consistently discern the transcendent formlessness of essential truth from religious particularism,” while holding that the “Aryan metaphysics of Vedanta and Platonism” retained this objectivity (Lipton 2018: 122). In his work Le Soufisme: voile et quintessence (1980) Schuon summarises his perspective on this issue describing Aryans (Indians, Persians, and Europeans) as “above all metaphysicians and therefore logicians,” while characterising Semites (Jews and Arabs) as “a priori mystics and moralists,” and “subjectivists” (Schuon 2006 [1980]: 21).

>>20207624
Dumb nonsense. Here come the retarded Guenonians.

>>20207713
The child molester didn't like Ibn Arabi. So sad.

*prances around naked while molesting his follower's kids, albeit incapable of getting erect, claiming to be visited by the naked Virgin Mary, and tells you he's the posessor of le objective primordial trad Truth*

10 seconds of listening to this man speak shows that's he's a fraud and new-age cult leader. The LARP can't fool me.

>>20207713
So Traditionalism is about becoming a Sufi even though you know it's not the best position.

>>20207713
Based.

>>20207761
>The child molester didn't like Ibn Arabi. So sad.
Not that poster, but what if he was just following the example of the perfect man (Al-Insān al-Kāmil), the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

>>20207713
based

>>20208015
in thst case he was based af
christianity is for virgi

>>20208035
*christianity is for virgins, islam is for chads

>>20207624
Based and good recommendation of that book on the subject

When I see all of the hylics around here I feel motivated to work hard and achieve moksha.

>>20207761
>hurr durr it's all just rip off of Ibn Arabi
"We have seen that Love is the “active Intelligence” to which Dante alludes in the last line of the
Divine Comedy: “The Love that moves the Sun and the other stars.” In the “possible intellect” of the Fedele3d’Amore, this intelligence is awakened and active, whereas among the profane it is dormant and inoperative. Likewise Valli (p. 172) says that in the sectarian jargon dormire (to sleep) means to be in error, to be far from the truth, and especially to belong to the Church of Rome. It is the symbolism that Dante uses in the last cantos of the
Purgatorio, in which immersion in the river Lethe, the river of sleep and forgetfulness, is succeeded by that in the Eunoe; as a result, Dante becomes like a new plant (neo-fita) restored with new leaves, “pure and fit to rise to the stars,” and able to ascend to the “kingdom of the heavens.” This is a well-known pagan symbolism used by Virgil and Plato, and found as far back as the oldest Orphism and the Eleusinian Mysteries. There, the river Lethe, which wipes out men’s consciousness, is opposed to the fresh spring of Memory, or the mnemonic virtue of the pomegranate, which grants awakening and immortality. Platonic anamnesis or memory is identified with knowledge; and correspondingly truth,
a-letheia, is the negation and overcoming of Lethe. The pursuit of truth is a victory of consciousness over sleep and death; it is necessary to attain and maintain the continuity of consciousness even through sleep and death."

>>20207713

>>20208043
Both are for apriori mystics and moralists...
>>20207713

>>20208163
One could try to argue that European Christian thinkers like Eirugena, Eckhart, Pseudo-Dionysus etc are metaphysicians in spirit that just happen to be working within the context of a mystic and moralist system.

>>20206779
>picrel
It’s like the dude will start talking about Shakespeare when you ask him where id the post office. Fucking pathetic.

>>20206730
>Unless I'm mistaken he was a Moor, a Berber, and he would travel
Most andalusian were spanish and goth who converted and wewuzzed as some descendant of the cousin of the uncle of the prophet
also averroes notably loathed berbers

>>20207761
>Dumb nonsense. Here come the retarded Guenonians
I'm not a Guenonian but to deny his authority/knowledge in this field is idiocy. You quite literally have no argument and nothing more to say on the matter, since you only have a very small point of reference and obviously are only interested in your own puerile and imaginary narrative. The only reason I'm even bothering to respond is so others can see you're wrong and find the truth of the matter for themselves if they care enough.

Evola/Ur Group's intro to magic is perhaps the best writing I've come across to any man in the West looking to approach initiation (not "mysticism," which is inferior to initiation) from a practical perspective. By practical I mean exercises but also more importantly a living understanding of the symbolism/philosophy. After studying these works that lay a rock-solid foundation you can delve into other Traditions and hopefully choose one. ItM is true Hermeticism, which is high spirituality the ultimate goal of which is the solar body of light, the Sun in Saturn. It is pretty funny how so few people even know this.

>>20206642
Guenon and his consequences

>>20208043
Both of them are inferior semitic perversions. Abbrahamic religions are a plague.

>>20208254
Guenon claimed Dante didn't get his esoteric knowledge from Islam actually.

>>20208250
Inb4 guenonfags chime in, /pol/ incel, new age counter-tradition eviola - big surprise they've never actually truly delved into what you're talking about.

>>20208250
I should have made it clear that ItM is setting forth authentic Hermeticism (particularly Evola, Reghini, "Abraxas" and "Luce", other contributors come from different backgrounds), but they reference/include writings from many other esoteric Traditions, often from the East, but also the Mithraic mysteries. The books should be studied and referred back to constantly. You will not get everything on the 1st or 2nd reading. Some of it only makes sense later. Stick to it and you can really go down the rabbit hole (knowing French and/or Italian has been a great asset in my experience). Probably not for beginners either, you should already have some basic knowledge on these topics.

>>20208123
Worst takes on Dante possibly ever written. I thought Guenon was supposed to be deep, but it appears he only ever skim-read his sources.

>>20208250
You're seriously suggesting I read Evola on magic. Get a grip.

>>20206642
Who the fuck is ibn Arabi

I'm just going to watch Evangelion and read the New Testament + Lord of the Rings. This is the new western canon.

>>20208216
lmao

>>20208410
is not from guenon

>>20207713
>Schuon

"even at age 85 – spending hours everyday, with his head between the legs of Badriyyah, and kissing her private parts…in front of me too. A woman was not given any rights by him, not sexual or financial. He had to have a beautiful young woman in love with him at all times. When each one approached 50; he took another; and he asked me things like 'Could an 18 year-old woman be attracted to me?'"

"From about age 60, he could not make love well, so for at LEAST the next 25 years, he wanted lots of oral sexuality for himself. Sexuality was not for women. Sometimes he’d have three of us naked with him, and he would be made 'love to' by one. I found this disgusting, but was so convinced that he was divine, as were we all, that oral sexuality from him was the greatest grace for us! Apparently he knew that completely satisfying sexuality was forbidden in that form, in Islam. I had no idea."

"In those Gatherings three young faqirat were naked; and two spread their legs wide apart, while they were sitting on their knees – so he meditated on their private parts!"

source from his ex wife:
https://frithjofschuon.wordpress.com/frithjof-schuon-madeleine-oesh-francais-english/

>>20208431
The word magic is taken in an allegedly medieval sense of the word, meaning a heroic and more virile attitude towards transcendence, as in della Riviera's "Mondo magico degli eroi". I don't care what you read, since you're likely a complete pleb (are you brown?) when it comes to spiritual realisation, which is why you can't even engage in discussion when it comes to topics of esotericism.

>>20208410
It's quite clearly more about initiation and the living symbolic reality behind initiatory experiences than it is about Dante. But I doubt you care, from your post you seem to only be interested in giving your unqualified opinion than actually engaging in these types of discussions from a higher point of view, which explains why you would not be interested in actual esotericism.

Why are there so many people here supposedly interested in esoteric matters, but they cannot even engage in discussions of such things even in a superficial manner? you are wasting your time and just boosting your ego, which is the opposite of the aims of such doctrines.

>>20208711
The opinion of someone like that on someone like Schuon doesn't really matter. Sexual techniques can lead towards higher states of consciousness. However I don't know enough about Schuon to know if he was really benefitting spiritually from such activities or if he was just falling to base instincts. It was probably the former though, at least certainly to some extent and for some time. However, it is odd that a disciple of Guenon would take this path, I think. This is more "left hand path", right? or maybe once you've reached a certain state it doesn't matter, I'm not sure.

I have no interest in "gossip" when it comes to such figures, as if they were celebrities. If your only knowledge of esotericism comes from exoteric religion this behaviour will of course seem shocking lol.

>>20208810
>However, it is odd that a disciple of Guenon would take this path, I think.
Guenon considered Ramakrishna, an advaitin sufi syncretist who had gay sex with his disciples and developed feminine tits, to be a true trad sage who transcended the forms and reached the primordial tradition

>>20208767
>since you're likely a complete pleb (are you brown?)

I'm whiter than Evola.

>>20208810
>I don't know enough about Schuon to know if he was really benefitting spiritually from such activities or if he was just falling to base instincts. It was probably the former though

Are you genuinely retarded?

>>20208832
>who had gay sex with his disciples
source?

>>20206642
That's great but I don't like Islam or Arabic and I will never like it or identify with it in the least.

>>20208915
Not in spirit apparently.

>>20208922
Are you denying sexual methods for experiencing transcendent states? that would make you the retard, likely nothing more than a religious moralist, devoid of true spiritual wisdom. These matters are a science, with techniques and empiricism.

>>20208832
What is your point? sexual methods are valid techniques for spiritual enlightenment, it is just the opposite path from that of Guenon, however the final goal is the same. I said I'm not interested in "gossip" when it comes to these people, yet you persist, like a girl in middle school, not contributing anything more to the discussion. Do you know what having "reached the primordial tradition" actually entails?

>>20209328
>Are you denying sexual methods for experiencing transcendent states?

That's beside the point. If you have to take more than two seconds to realize Schuon is a base pervert you're a retard.

>>20209328
>yet you persist, like a girl in middle school,

What's wrong with that? Isn't that what Schuon wanted?

>>20209368
>That's beside the point. If you have to take more than two seconds to realize Schuon is a base pervert you're a retard.
Why? you admit that sexual methods are valid within an initiatory context, so how do you know he was just being a degenerate? Your responses are so devoid of substance. You even felt the need to reply a second time right after this, with an even more pointless response.

>>20208218
What the absolute fuck is this shite. It’s honestly staggering the amount of outright lies faggots on this entire site, no matter what board, head canon as “reality” so they can’t cope

>>20209409
shut up loser

>>20208218
Source?

>>20207597
>He's a muslim, not a white westerner you fucking retard.
Race isn't religion, you can be Muslim and white, as it was the case for most andalusi you fucking retard

>>20206677
>>20206730
this guys right.
>>20206779
>>20206642
you have no sense of context. and even then, Id say averoes if anything is more important to understand western currants then Arabi.

>>20209819
For what? Muslim Andalusians being mostly white? Just open any history book about Spain, historians, including muslim ones, pretty much all agree on this subject. Genetics studies support this claims.
For Averroes loathing Barbars, see picrel.
>>20209620
Seethe.

>>20208767
>It is degenerate magic!!!
These people are stooges

>>20208410
Yeah you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, that wasn't even written by Evola for all the retards interested, in the Writings from the UR group we also have great essays from Guido de Giorgio, who guenon considered a peer so even from the Guenonfag perspective you can't deny its worth - there is some really great stuff in there, however some people are genuinely incapable of grasping such sorts of esoterism.

>>20206642
Good channel on Ibn Arabi and Islamic Sufis/Neoplatonism/Philosophy, well referenced uni/lit tier well above the usually hippy dross you see/read on him in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP7vkiC6dck

>>20211201
Go away little hippy. Go away.