/lit/ - Literature

>>20121407
>Outside some poetry
This is doing a lot of work anon. Classical Arabic and Persian poetry are some of the greatest literary traditions on the planet. It's fine to have a personal preference more for prose (as most people appear to have nowadays), but, especially historically speaking, poetry was by *far*, by far the most prestigious genre of literature, and still is in the Arab world today. Medieval Arab prose was even full of rhyming, which is incredibly peculiar to Europeans and basically makes it untranslatable. This question is like asking "apart from some poetry, why is Tang-Song China so devoid of literature hurr durr?"

Mutanabbi was a total genius, one can tell that even in translation. To say nothing of e.g. Hafez.

>>20121407

Where are the fruits of the Islamic golden age?
They don't exist.

the Islamic Golden Age is myth perpetuated by people who simply can't fathom that Arabs have been savages since the dawn of time.

Ottomans learnt Empire building from transcribing Classic Western texts. Nothing More.

>>20121464
>from transcribing Classic Western texts
from Arabic cus yuropoors were too dumb in the middle ages and didn't preserve and copy most works

>>20121464
>autodidact life a hard swerve for me
You'll fit right in, redditspacer.

>>20121407
>Averroes
>Avicenna
>Al-Farabi
>Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi
Idk, anon. There are many worth reading.

>>20121407
3 more than america

>>20121407
You fool.

Don't you know how much literature has come from Greece? Examine your own picture fool and read Plato AND Aristotle

>>20121532
>Greece
>Middle East

>>20121476
They were made literate in order to pacify them via a new religion, one of peace.

>>20121407
More just three books that you know about.

>>20121407
Probably because Islamic life is very demanding and restrictive, with heavy emphasis on the Quran. They think it’s the verbatim word of god and the perfect book (which is laughable considering how strung together it is), and so when someone tries bringing up another book, it’s hard to compete when that claim is repeated over and over again. There are also probably some restrictions I would assume, since music isn’t allowed, cartoons/images aren’t allowed, so if they are to do something, they need to find a loophole (like calligraphy Quranic art)

>>20121407
Also the Islamic golden age is kind of a meme pushed HARD by Muslims (and also the west, to seem kind I guess and not islamophobic..)
Most advances made weren’t entirely original (see: Arabic numeral system), some were, and most were for religious purposes so they didn’t really gain any traction until Europeans started to use some of the material

>>20121623
we're looking at the time period where they drew Mohammad with his head on fire and a veil and a lot of them were kind of loose about scriptural interpretation and getting more into interpretive dance

>>20121407
Muslim writing was more concerned with theology and religion, even the rational mu'tazilites thematically write about religion primarily. Christian writing was the same during the so-called dark ages. If you aren't interested in religion, medieval literature in general is not for you.

>>20121407
Which three books do you think?

Also there's definitely more than just the three books you know about. Trust me, as someone who looks down on the region as a whole.

>>20121623
You don't know what you're talking about. Islamic theology is built around a corpus of hundreds of medieval treatises which aim to interpret and comprehend the Qur'an. Do Christians today still read any medieval author other than Aquinas? Muslims today read the works of thousands of scholars from the time of the prophet to the current age. Does any other religion compare to the sheer volume of living discussion and chains of theology and rite in Islam?

>>20121407
>the Middle East has only produced three books worth reading.
the first story ever written is middle eastern man
>>20121464
>Ottomans learnt Empire building from transcribing Classic Western texts. Nothing More.
lul wut
>>20121490
also ibn khaldun
>>20121832
>rational mutazilites
not really, hanbalites were by far more rational

>>20121407
>>20121881
also id recommend al-masudi, al-jahiz, ibn ishaq, ibn tufayl and ferdowsi

>>20121637
>Also the Islamic golden age is kind of a meme pushed HARD by Muslims
bullshit
>Most advances made weren’t entirely original
so what? do you find it wrong to build on what the ancients discovered and develop it?
> most were for religious purposes
a few actually

A culturally illiterate burger obviously made this thread
>>20121407

>>20121881
>not really, hanbalites were by far more rational
All islamic groups claim to be rational. But the hanabilah are somewhat like protestants, they rejected well established tradition on the basis of it being taqlid.

>>20121407
Devoid of translated literature, you mean? It is full of literature.

>>20121407

Plenty of Modern works to help bridge some gaps


Cities of Salt
The Thief And The Dogs
Midaq Alley
Reading Lolita in Tehran
A Thousand Splendid Suns
The Blood of Flowers
Chanson Douce

>>20121960
OP said worth reading tho
>Cities of Salt
>Midaq Alley
These are the only good ones you mentioned

>>20122007

Yeah well, I'm sure OP can find their own opinions on the list

>>20121476
urban legend. the Greek texts were preserved in Greek in the Greek-speaking part of the world, the Byzantine Empire. people seem to think the Latin- and Arabic-speaking worlds were next door and forget the big one in between

>>20121858
>Guénon
You realise that apart from you and your sufi esoterist clique, your theology is deemed heretical, and only held to by the vast vast minority, not to mention that Guénon himself was a perennialist, and never abandoned his "Universal post," he had been initiated into many esoteric orders and religions - Aesthetics is what attracts people to Islam, it is not better objectively than any other Tradition, this exclusivism is absent from the Perennialist worldview.

Aside from all this, it's nonsensical from what we know of medieval Islamic texts to separate them from the fruits of pre-existing civilisations even European ones if we include the Greeks, just look at all the Islamic astrological treatises - from what I have seen they are all mostly derivative in some sense connecting to ptolemy etc. Etc.

There is no doubt that in terms of sheer volume far more manuscripts, where produced by thr Eastern Roman empire,

Of course there is nothing wrong with Islamic civilisation, or medieval theology, and your "fetishism" is understandable.

>>20122056
Correct it is urban legend.

https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2019/12/who-preserved-greek-literature.html?m=1
https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2020/06/who-preserved-greek-literature-2.html?m=1

" we don’t rely on mediaeval Arabic transmissionat allfor modern editions of ancient Greek texts, except in very sparse cases. "

Its essentialy just a muh niggerr we wuz myth,
It's funny though to here it belligerently perpetuated by Abdullah pseuds.

>>20122062
Not to mention that the best of the Islamic philosophers of the Golden Age were Platonists in Aristotelians, aswell as Similarly "Vedicists"
The root civilisations are the Indian and the Greek for this era, the Christian and Muslim from the historicists point of view were anomalous distant emanations of this root, arguably the Indian Hindu civilisation is the most consistent.

>>20122089
Regardless this is just a modern false dichotomy induced by special Modern Global circumstances, i see it pushed by by the Christian vs. Muslim crowd - useful idiot Abrahamic delusions.

>>20122089
Of course and the Hebrew

>>20122062
>You realise that apart from you and your sufi esoterist clique
I am against perrenialism and Geunon's hindu beliefs
>your theology is deemed heretical
I am of the Ahlu Sunnah wal-Jamaah theology, but Ibn Arabi(Wahdatul Wujud) is only viewed as heretical by the hanabilah. But I don't particularly support it.
>Aesthetics is what attracts people to Islam
What aesthetics? christianity is a far more "aesthetic" religion than islam, and most "trad-cath" types only claim to be catholic because of the aesthetics. I don't see that many muslim "little dark age" videos, do you?
>from what I have seen they are all mostly derivative in some sense
All writing is derivative to something. Islamic theology is derivative to the Qur'an. The writing of the mu'tazilites, similar to the writings of church father and apostles, were derivative of hellenistic philosophy. And early greek philosophy was derivative of eastern and egyptian thought as testified by the very philosophers of the time. To say all of them are derivative is somewhat doing a disservice to the past, it is more accurate to say they have expounded on early thought.
>There is no doubt that in terms of sheer volume far more manuscripts, where produced by the Eastern Roman empire
Name five well-known Byzantine books without looking it up.

>>20122089
In what way has indian thought influenced muslim and christian philosophy before the modern era?

>>20122122
>All writing is derivative to something. Islamic theology is derivative to the Qur'an. The writing of the mu'tazilites, similar to the writings of church father and apostles, were derivative of hellenistic philosophy. And early greek philosophy was derivative of eastern and egyptian thought as testified by the very philosophers of the time. To say all of them are derivative is somewhat doing a disservice to the past, it is more accurate to say they have expounded on early thought


As I said from the historicists point of view, ultimately all Traditions are derivative or branches stemming from the trunk of Primordial Tradition, and I am not denying the originality of this or that emergent civilisation, the Greek, the Islamic, etc. As far as I see here is nothing wrong with intellectual borrowings.

>No little Dark age No Aesthetic appeal
Not true in the least

>Name them
I will just point you to the 31,000 entries of the Suda

I could list works but I am not going to expend the effort, as it is relative, and wholly irrelevant- personally dependent, that I don't list them here does not in anyway lend credence to your point.

>So you're against Guénon
Fine then but you seem to like the "Aesthetics" of the photo.


I think I have answered all your points sufficiently, and justified why there is no reason for me to give you a "personal" list of books.

>>20122133
If we are to acknowledge that the vedic Tradition is most representative of Pre-Islamic civilisation, and Pre-Christian civilisation, and is essentialy double as "Nature's eternal religion" also when we look at Sufism; Christian esoterism, we see parralels within the Vedic Tradition, we in Plato we see the same talk of Gunas as we do in the Vedic Tradition, pre-islamic Iranian Tradition is ultimately very much similar to Vedic Tradition, Just read the Avesta, there are also documented correspondences between Islamic and pre-Islamic near easterners who were to become representive ethnographically of Islamic civilsiation, aswell as Pre-Christian and what would become Roman civilisation, a study of the Hindu doctrines which predate both from the historicists perspective should answer your questions and the correspondences should become clear,

The "Historical contact" between the civilisations is secondary, that these may be in some sense "Modern revelations" is also secondary.

>>20122159
>As I said from the historicists point of view. However, ultimately all Traditions are derivative or branches stemming from the trunk of Primordial Tradition, and I am not denying the originality of this or that emergent civilisation, the Greek, the Islamic, etc. As far as I see here is nothing wrong with intellectual borrowings.

>>20122177
>Where to become Christian Roman civilisations.

>>20122046
>their
>implying the possibility of female

>>20121842
Not OP, but probably the Quran, 1001 Nights, and maybe the Bible

>>20121858
What in the good god damn is there to discuss?

>>20122198
You simply lack imagination, a verse or sentence can be interpreted and explicated in infinity ways.


How might we contrive one of those useful fictions we were just speaking of, so as by one noble lie to persuade if possible the rulers themselves, but failing that the rest of the city?
-Plato, Republic, 414c

Even false words are true if they lead to enlightenment; even true words are false if they breed attachment.
-Zen Saying

>>20122197
OP probably means Islamic world lit. Being a faggot, he probably means Quran, 1001, and some other work but who cares.

>>20121407
I learned through a writer who was really into Spengler that apparently Spengler believed that magian cultures (semites basically), in general, do not value secular literature highly, and therefore haven't produced much of note in these fields, because their culture sees it as superfluous compared to the quran or the tanakh-talmud combo.

>>20122076
Even what little they did, I feel like people massively overstate their real importance, the core of the problem being that practically none of them, save for maybe Averroes, bought anything truly new to the table. Ibn Sina was no doubt a great mind as well but in a general sense islamic philosophers carried with themselves the spirit of dogmatism that undergirds their religion into the philosophic sphere as well and never managed to evolve past reiterations of aristotelianism and what hellenic philosophers and proto-scientists already said centuries prior. Maybe it's just me but Shankara, buddhist epistemology/madhyamaka, and chinese philosophy that existed in the same period as the "islamic golden age" are each a million times more interesting and intellectually rigorous than watching muslims try to force aristotelianism's round peg into the square hole of islam.

>>20122441
>a million times more interesting and intellectually rigorous than watching muslims try to force aristotelianism's round peg into the square hole of islam
What about the triangular hole of Catholic Christianity?

>>20122441
It's not just you
Besides the commentaries and adaptations of Aristotle, they did produce some decent original marginilia.

I like Advaita, I've attacked Buddhists over it occasionally

Which Chinese phil do you mean?

>>20122442
That triangle transforms between water, ice, and vapor sometimes, and absorbed Aristotle in one of the most perfect ways possible

>>20122442
It's still fucky but actually less so than with islam or judaism because christianity is the only abrahamic religion that has hellenic DNA in it, even if not all of its DNA is hellenic. Platonism/stoicism for the masses and all that if you want to put it in a less charitable way like that philosopher with the moustache.

>>20121407
You're misunderstanding something here, OP. For 90% of history, poetry and plays -were- all literature. Novels are a new thing, and only a few countries ever gave a shit about novels like France and the UK. You have to understand it's not "the norm" but a relatively new and experimental form that didn't become the standard until the last 200 years.

>>20122190

>I am so transfixed with the issue of gender that the mere presence of ambiguity in language triggers me.

>>20122468
I bet you're a woman. Every man is sexist and would use the gender-neutral he.

>>20122444
Maybe I should have said "chinese philosophy that existed up until then". Tang and early Sung philosophy before Zhu Xi is admittedly kinda dinky. Abhinavagupta should get a mention, too, on the hindu end of things, now that I think about it.

>>20122463
That still doesn't discount why they haven't produced anything worthwhile in the modern era.

>>20122482
The Byzantines also should deserve to be acknowledged as more than a millennium long intermezzo between Rome and the ottomans. Saint Symeon, Photius, Palamas, poets like Romanos Melodos and Saint John the Hymnographer, Gemistos Plethon, the byzantine refugee intelligentsia in italy who brought a lot of greek texts with them and wrote the first ancient greek textbooks since the end of the roman empire, etc. Even a moderately informed normie knows little more about them than that they were "decadent" and "argued about how many angels can dance on the head of the pin" while turks bombarded the walls of Constantinople.

>>20122497
Finally, Eriugena is probably the most slept on philosopher between Augustine and Anselm in the west.

>>20122497
Which Greek textbooks? Which taught Greek but were written in Latin?

>>20122509
>The Erotemata (Ἐρωτήματα) are the first printed basic Greek grammar in use in Western Europe, written by Manuel Chrysoloras who was a pioneer in spreading Greek literature in Western Europe.

>Chrysoloras' Erotemata were likely first published in 1471 in Venice by Adam de Ambergau. It can be considered the first book ever printed in Greek, since it bears a Greek title-page and the text contains large parts in the language. It enjoyed immediate and considerable success in Italy, but also among later leading humanists, being studied by Thomas Linacre at Oxford and by Desiderius Erasmus at Cambridge.[1]

>>20121858
if there a re thousands of intellectual masturbating over the quran, the quran is shit.

>>20121858
Is this the dragon ball school of logic, where the only thing that matters is having a bigger number?

>>20122463
you have to understand anon how ignorant this bard is, they barely consider those two things literature. novels, philosophy, epic poetry, and holy books are the only literature according to this retarded ass board.

>>20122636
*board, not bard

>>20121464
>Ottomans learnt Empire building from transcribing Classic Western texts.

>>20121464
You are so fucking dumb its honestly commendable

>>20122076
>transmissionat allfor modern editions

The Islamic Golden Age was built on the Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Persian cultures that came before them.

>>20123214
cope and seethe, Islam is the truth.

>>20123259
How true is it? Fatalism makes more sense than the retarded circumlocutions about free will that Christianity invents. Fuck that glowie tier theologian making Christianity look bad in the other thread.

>>20121407
Muslim Golden age was literally mostly white dudes with new arabic names. You gotta remember, North Africs was pretty white back then. Like >>20121464 said ottoman dominance was driven largely by ethnic europeans. Byzantine defectors, mixed sultans, janissaries. Behind nearly every mysteriously competent muslim is european DNA

I can't believe the thread has gone this long without anyone explaining the real reason. Very disappointed in you, /lit/.

>In 1258 Mongols under the command of Hulagu Khan sacked Baghdad, destroying the House of Wisdom, the leading library in the leading intellectual center of the Arab world.

>The House of Wisdom, founded in the eighth century, contained countless precious documents accumulated over five hundred years. Survivors said so many books were thrown into the river that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink; others said the waters were red from blood.

>"In one week, libraries and their treasures that had been accumulated over hundreds of years were burned or otherwise destroyed. So many books were thrown into the Tigris River, according to one writer, that they formed a bridge that would support a man on horseback" (Harris, History of Libraries in the Western World 4th ed [1999] 85).

tl;dr the Khans sacked Baghdad, killed hundreds of scholars gathered there from all around the world, and destroyed centuries of accumulated literature, science and philosophy into the Tigris, precipitating the end of the intellectual Golden age of Islam.

>>20123502
The IGA was in decline long before that, and if they were so smart, why didn't they have several centers of learning? Tells alot about how stupid they were to not think so far ahead, thus there was hardly an IGA in the first place. If I were a civ, I wouldn't be so stupid of a bitch to place my libraries in one center.

>>20123561
You're right Anon. They should have backed up their files to a floppy disk

>>20123561
>Timbuktu is a division of Acme Corp in this anon's head
This thread keeps giving

>>20123749
>Timbuktu's "greatest" scholar, Ahmed Baba, a professional lawman, tries to develop a system of slavery based on unifying Muslims to enslave non-Muslims.
>Timbuktu never developed strong fortifications or military tech, despite Mansa Musa's immense gold reserves.
>Nobody cared, the Moroccans invade and enslave those cotton pickers anyway.
It totally was slapstick failure-prone Acme Corp, dumb nigger. Timbuktu was a nothing burger.

>>20121858
Judaism

>>20123214
>The Islamic Golden Age was built on the... ...cultures that came before them.
Yeah. I mean it was still a golden age

>>20121538
Greece is as middle-eastern as Turkey

>>20121858
No one should read Aquinas. Aristotelian theology is embarrassingly stupid.

>>20121407
Anons, should I read the Quran?

>>20123958
Sure, why not?

>>20123502
>>20123561
Not just Genghis Khan but later Turkic-Mongols like Tamerlane.

>>20123887
westoids like to claim greece as their own because it's literally the only source of "european" "culture"

>>20124146
Greece isn't even Western lmao

>>20123958
the hadith is more relevant towards Islamic beliefs, but its massive.
read the quran if you insist on being "cultured" or whatever the fuck, but not to learn about Islam.

>>20123851
>anon calling the librarians still fighting off ISIS "a nothing burger"
ok big man, I'm sure you're doing just as good for books

>>20124278
I'm not really looking to convert. I guess I just wanted to "learn" about it.

>>20124872
best off watching some lectures, doing some google searches, and maybe buying a book or 2 once you find a scholar you respect
islam isnt as simple as "sunni and shia", because even within those groups you have massive amounts of ideological differences.

>>20124584
Weak cope.

That doesn't address what's worthwhile about the library, and if Timbuktu culture was culturally useful as Europe's or China's libraries, they would have been fortified and decisive enough to quickly dispense with the rebels.

There isn't a single book in Timbuktu that has unique qualities enough to be truly preserved. It's all redundant copies of the Quran, shitty law texts that can't even protect its own people, and boring religious texts sometimes ranging on the hilariously stupidly superstitious and blasphemous

>>20124901
Industrialization and "secular values" were both mistakes though.

>>20125007
Industrialization wasn't, and you're an idiot for saying so. We can fix secular values when people wake up to the spiritual emptiness of secularism.

>>20125007
Your heart's in the right place and you're right for trying to defend Timbuktu. Please excuse my aggression.

>>20125102
Industrialization was a mistake, you oversocialized numbskull. All it has brought is stripping away people's autonomy, destruction of local cultures, loss of biodiversity, and so on. Kys.
>>20125194
I don't even know what Timbuktu is.

>>20125257
Okay no, don't excuse me, and go extinct like your gay ass animals.

>>20125473
Most of mankind is going to die in like 100 years, stupid Jew.
Have fun with your brain-computer interfaces connected to the cloud. Some batches of the jab were testing self-assembling nano neural bots forming a mesh that could potentially interact with 5G. Even Musk talks about nano neural meshes.
Go back to using your shit smart phone and living an unfulfilling life as the elites continue to invade every facet of our lives and strip our autonomy.

>>20121935
Lol, what? Do you even understand what you’re saying here? Anyone that classified themselves as a “Hanbali” is literally going to be doing taqlid of that school.

>>20122441
>intellectually rigorous
It’s not though. It’s just anime tier headcanon bullshit which is why you find it “interesting”. In terms of intellectual rigour is has virtually zero since not a single element of it has influenced subsequent philosophical discussion nor is still being discussed in those circles today in terms of these “big question”. Islamic, Christian, Jewish and Greek thought is still consistently quoted in terms of matter relating to free will, destiny, necessary existence etc...
In the modern era academics have access to every piece of philosophy imaginable, yet they’ll still say that the works of someone like Ibn Taymiyyah are far more intellectually rigours than any chink shit.

>>20125693
German phil is pretty strongly molded by Indian phil influence. Chinese social philosophy is being studied around the world as the Chinese model works and bears being studied and copied.

>>20121490
>>Averroes
>Middle East

>>20121407
Epic of Gilgamesh
Old testament
Arabian nights
The Shahnameh
Rubaiyat
Conference of the Birds
Masnavi (Mathnawi)

>>20121407
https://4chanlit.fandom.com/wiki/Recommended_Reading/Literature_by_origin#Middle_East