/lit/ - Literature

>>20085373
Sounds horrible. What I don't understand is why virtually all artists and writers are so anti-clerical. They all love to highlight religious hypocrisy, cruelty, and corruption, but they just ignore the massive amount of almsgiving and good works religious people do. Sure, there have been corrupt clerics who had sex with whores and all that stuff, but what about the thousands of nuns, priests, bishops who spent their lives in poverty and dedicated their life to serving others, building hospitals, looking after the poor and disabled, and so on.

>>20085386
>but they just ignore the massive amount of almsgiving and good works religious people do
There's really just not much to write about with 'good' things, people have tried though.

>>20085386
>Sounds horrible. What I don't understand is why virtually all incels and chuds are so anti-science. They all love to highlight scientific hypocrisy, cruelty, and corruption, but they just ignore the massive amount of innovations and technology scientists make. Sure, there have been corrupt scientists who faked fraudulent safety data and all that stuff, but what about the thousands of researchers, professors, advocates who spent their lives in school and dedicated their life to developing medications, studying global warming, improving dietary science, and so on.

>>20085416
I don't get it.
>>20085406
Yeah maybe but in every TV show and film I watch where they mention clerics, they always paint them in a negative light. Every time.

>>20085440
Everything is shown in a negative light, the difference is you think your thing deserves a special exemption. There definitely are shows that show both negative and positive aspects of clerics.

>>20085448
Well I personally haven't seen them. Even if you cite a couple it doesn't disprove the general anti-clerical trend in media and art.

>>20085440
>I don't get it
trust is easier to destroy than to build. when members of a prestigious class misuse their authority, supposedly trustworthy members of that class must take swift and drastic action to rectify the damage done by the hypocrites. simply "ignoring the bad apples" and continuing to "do good deeds" isn't enough.

>>20085458
Nothing you cite could disprove the general anti-clerical trend in reality, either.

>>20085458
Man who gives a fuck. They're a class of parasites anyway

>>20085459
This. Using some of your funds to uselessly virtue signalling about how much you love disabled people does not make up for mass murder, and now pedophilia.

>>20085470
*to uselessly virtue signal

>>20085470
What mass murder? Pedophilia was committed by a minority of priests, with comparable rates to public schools, boy scouts, and other Protestant churches.

>>20085458
I think part of the issue is that 'positive' in the eyes of non-religious people is different than positive in your eyes. For example, I consider the depiction of the clergy in Derry Girls (that cringey netflix comedy about Northern Ireland) to be positive, because they portray the clergy as not actually believing in God and basically approaching their role like a normal job where they do little benign selfish things and complain about working conditions. I don't think you would agree with me.

>>20085373

fun

>>20085516
>What mass murder?
You've never heard of the religious wars in europe? Many millions of people died during the protestant reformation, on both sides. Look this up for yourself, it's gruesome stuff (see that pic I posted).

>>20085548
Yes states fight wars and sectarian violence exists. This does not prove the Catholic Church committed mass murder. The wars of religion in Europe were just as much about politics and territory and resources as religion (evidenced by the existence of interreligious alliances, for example France and the Protestant states vs HRE in the Thirty Years War).

>>20085548
Mussolini, Stalin, and Mao were atheists and together killed tens of millions, more than in the protestant reformation. Hitler wasn't religious either. Also see >>20085598

>>20085598
Cope. It was the bloodiest war in Europe before the 20th century, maybe the bloodiest ever.

>>20085373
God I wish that was me

>>20085598
You realize that the same logic undermines the positive claims you want to make, right? You could very easily claim that the charity the church does is just 'normal' charity that would have gotten done anyway (the elements in society that want to put time and money towards that would find a way).

>>20085657
The atheist states in the 20th century engaged in the bloodiest wars and genocides in history. None of the war crimes which occurred during the wars of religion can be placed at the feet of the Catholic Church.

>>20085516
And covered up by their bosses and bosses bosses. And moved from place to place to rape again.

>>20085669
You don't understand the difference between the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire/Kingdom of Spain/Kingdom of France/Hapsburg Dynasty/etc.? The Catholic Church is not a state entity which can engage in warfare. By the way, one of the Catholic kingdoms I listed -- France -- was fighting WITH the Protestants against the Holy Roman Empire and its allies. These wars were as much political as they were religious.
The charity the Catholic Church engages in is unmatched in history. Your argument doesn't really make sense.

>>20085679
I'm not even going to try to say atheism had no relevance to the 20th century violence, but the *declared purpose* of the protestant reformation wars was religion, you can't get around that. You certainly can't get around executions cor heresy.

>>20085516
>with comparable rates to public schools, boy scouts
got some numbers? and numbers of rate of cover ups and so on as this one says >>20085701

>>20085701
The prevailing idea at the time was that you can cure pedophilia through therapy. Abusers were punished internally by the Church, sent for counselling, and moved to new parishes in order to take them away from the children they abused. This was a HORRIBLE practice and no Catholic denies this.
The thing is, the Catholic Church reformed this issue during John Paul II's pontificate. He made it mandatory for all accused priests to be turned into the local authorities for investigation, instead of being investigated by the Church as before. There's also been an effort made by Francis and others to restrict homosexuals from entering the priesthood.

>>20085718
I was going to respond to this but then you added the
>Your argument doesn't really make sense.
Which is this line used by this one particular retarded kid we see around here (you), so I'm going to spare my own time here and not bother.

>>20085386
Because the laity are laborers, undereducated and proud of it. The clergy are resented both for their status and their influence on community mores. Atheists, anarchists and the like, love to poke them, because rising to provocation in the religious demonstrates an (modern) irreligious sentiment.
>That's not very Christian of you, hypocrite much?
It's a popular pastime for the socially stagnant.

>>20085770
>>That's not very Christian of you, hypocrite much?
Why are Christians so ass mad about atheists pointing out their hypocrisies?

>>20085936
Why wouldn't they be? Everyone gets mad when you point out their obvious flaws

>>20085373
>Another Anti Sade thread by the same brainlet board that worships Dostoevsky
Is it a male thing? I'm starting to develop a theory that Sade was spiritually female and that's why most men just don't get it. But love a retard like Dostoevsky. It's like thoughtless but affable golden retriever behavior. You're all golden retrievers. But it's very hard for me not be mean to people who disrespect Sade so I have to add that I hope you all die. Leave behind the men who get Sade thanks, much better for my bedroom if nothing else.

>>20085936
Why are atheists so ass mad about Christians existing?

>>20085949
there was an OP the other day who mentioned he's planning on taking up the mantle from de sade, you missed your chance for maximum felicity

>>20085966
I saw that, I thought it was a girl lol

>>20085949
He was a dull pedophile whose most erotic fantasies are practically chaste peccadilloes. At least Restif wasn't so fucking boring.

>>20085983
How can he be dull when he literally wrote the most extreme book that has ever been and ever could be written?

>>20085989
>most extreme book
That's part of the problem.

>>20085936
Because atheists are faggots.

>>20085989
It's not hard to be edgy lmao. People are decent because they're not subhuman perverts, not because it's difficult to be indecent.

>>20086014
It's very difficult actually you total retard, or would you enjoy being in prison your whole life? Even today it would lead to total ostracization.
And being edgy isn't all he did, he was an extremely gifted writer and philosopher, he didn't just write explicit stuff with no artistic touch. He had a highly distinctive authorial voice, basically it was like Satan himself were writing, very persuasive and ironic and completely haphazard. And in terms of his philosophy he'll be immortalized both for what he said on the surface through his characters and what his main aim actually was, which was to completely destroy Rousseau. But you read cock and fuck and shit a few times and clutched your pearls. Get a grip.

>>20086010
Did you think this would do anything other than make you look like a seething retard?

>>20085949
I'll never understand how girls can justify liking Sade. He was a vicious misogynist. You're not the first I've seen either; I've known even feminists that felt strongly in his favor. What the hell!

>>20085957
Pointing out tangible and obvious issues in a thread you started is not the same as being assmad

>>20086029
>like Satan himself were writing
No, anon, you need to get a grip. Brush up on your Diderot as well, because you don't know what you're talking about.

>>20086049
Imagine if you grew up having deal with blood seeping painfully out of your penis for a few days every month and you'll have some idea why we have a better constitution for shocking stuff.

>>20086049
I think it's a knock-on effect of Borderline Personality
>I'm super special, his inability to recognize me as an individual wouldn't apply.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sadeian_Woman_and_the_Ideology_of_Pornography

>>20086060
But that doesn't explain LIKING Sade

>>20086060
Why are foids so obsessed with their periods, its all they ever talk about.

>>20086066
That looks like an interesting book, I see that Andrea Dorkin doesn't like which means I should check it out
>>20086069
"Liking" him is just an appreciation of what he did as an artist and iconoclast, it's not gendered. I don't ask myself before I read someone what are their views of women and would I want to be their friend.

>>20086085
It's how they define themselves.
>oppressed by anatomy (lack of penis)
>opprrssed by physiology (menstruation)

>>20086088
Sade was an actual rapist and convict, you are an idiot but thats to be expected from a hole.

>>20085957
Because Jesus speaks the truth and Atheists hate the truth.

>>20086085
We talk about masturbatory subjects constantly, it's a similar dynamic.

>>20086094
I really noticed it on Kiwi Farms and maidan cafe or whatever its called.
Any discussion between women will quickly turn into a discussion of bleeding from their vaginas, its sad really how mind broken foids are after the age of 12.

>>20086095
Doesn't mean he can't be a great artist. Art is beyond the scope of morality.

>>20086104
He wasnt a great artist nor is art beyond the scope of morality.

>>20085373
If this is a representation of atheist literature then inquisitors are a representation of spiritual literature

>>20085386
But you have no problem swalloing de Sade as a representative atheist (as if negation of Biblical faith were a delimited philosophy of its own, anyways).

>>20085949
As someone who actually enjoys scatological literature, I think De Sade while no doubt seminal is one of the weaker examples of the genre. He spends a lot of time trying to morally justify his world view, and that might not be bad in of itself but his philosophy and reasoning is far too shallow to be compelling.
> while Justine refused to make concessions for the greater good and was plunged further into vice than those who would go willingly.
Isn't coherent. Ignoring the vague idea of the greater good in general, how is getting raped a vice? That is precisely like saying being mugged is a vice, it is also like saying:
>you poop, thus your vice is pooping.
Nonsense. Burroughs and that spanish fellow who wrote the story where he ate that retarded girl like a sandwich and flushed her bones down the toilet are superior not just in thought but also in style.

>>20086112
His works are confirmed classics and he's canonized. That doesn't happen lightly. And art being beyond morality is the first hurdle to having a sophisticated palette. Not surprising that you haven't crossed it and hate Sade.

>>20086140
He spent time making arguments because he was refuting Rousseau, that's just something you have to allow him if you're going to read him. You can't go in just hoping for nothing but schlock.
And is the Spanish guy you're talking about Bolano? I want to read that, is it in 2666? That'd be convenient since I just started it

>>20086144
Here's a question for you mister: are you American?

>>20086144
>confirmed classics
By what authority?
>canonized
wat

Takbir, you foids are fucking stupid as hell.

>>20086155
He should have refined his arguments.

>>20086160
Go to buy his books, you'll find your options consisting of Penguin Classics and Oxford Classics. It's not complicated.
And time is the judge of canonization, if he's still being widely and closely read and hotly debated hundreds of years later he's in the canon.
You can just ask me to explain these things, you don't have to hurt yourself by swinging above your weight, y'know.

>>20086163
Is it Bolano!

>>20086170
>Penguin Classics and Oxford Classics
That doesnt mean its a "classic", they are forgotten fringe books written by a criminally insane rapist.
What is it with you foids obsessing over felons?

>>20085949
Why is it de Sade vs Dostoevsky? There are other Christian novelists too

>>20086216
And yet you don't name any that you have read

>>20086216
Because ask any of these goobers who say things like Sade isn't classic and art should be moral who their favorite writer is and it's always Dostoevsky. He's the golden standard for golden retrievers.

>>20086186
The Eyes by Aldepeurta

>>20086267
Ok thanks!

For me, a good Christian counterbalance to Justine is La Femme pauvre by Léon Bloy…

>>20085386
It's a faggoty French thing. Italians and Spaniards are less obnoxious in that regard.

>>20086267
Hilarious.

>pick up Justine because I thought it would be more graphic version of Lolita and I’m a degenerate
>it’s boring as fuck
>drop it

>go into this thread thinking I might get some insights that will make me try it again
>Christians and Atheists pointlessly arguing
>leave thread.

Never change, /lit.

>>20086329
>make a thread titled "So this is atheist 'literature"'
>get confused when it turns into a pissing contest

>>20086361
Any nonbrainlet should see through how retarded of a bait that is though

>>20086189
They're definitely not forgotten, and calling someone criminally insane isn't really an argument. People like edgy stuff that they don't fully understand, disgust breeds interest. It really shouldn't be surprising to you that the woman who post on fucking 4chan like edgy literature.

>>20086104
He’s a rapist who’s every novel involves rape, and usually pedophilia. It’s different then Tolstoy being a rapist.

>>20086394
See through to what, exactly?

>>20086590
Being a rapist IRL is v naughty and not to be done, I agree. But it's irrelevant to his art, whatever the subject matter of it is. If he wrote Anna Karenina or the 120 Days his character is irrelevant. As is the morality of what he writes. The only question is its philosophical and literary value. Anything else is pearl clutching and infatile!

>>20086361
No actually you’re right, I am a brainlett for that post. By the time I got done scrolling through the same back and forth I’ve read a thousand times I forgot that the caption on this thread was clearly a bait post and not a genuine thread about Justine.

>be me
>say I’m leaving thread
>don’t.

>>20086759
Women: Rape is le bad
Also women:
>Love literature's most notorious rapist
>Cum enormously when raped

>>20086789
Ok

>>20085949
Kek. I hate all the blackpilled incel stuff but women keep convincing me otherwise.

>>20085718
>The Catholic Church is not a state entity which can engage in warfare.
the Knights Templar, the Knights Hospitaller, and the Northern Crusades.

>>20086060
So...that makes you attracted to those who hate you?

>>20086895
And most importantly, The Papal States. Even today Vatican City is a country and could choose to execute people or declare war if they so choose (they wouldn't get far, but the legal capacity to try is there).

>>20085949
>>20086243
Reading your posts makes me want to hang myself. It's not even the actual content of them but the way you write.
>>20086878
The more I speak with women the less I care for them.

>>20085598
Look up the albigenser crusade. Don't theow your lot in with something you cannot defend based on some quick fix on the internet

>>20085718
>The Catholic Church is not a state entity which can engage in warfare
The Papal states were very much a state entity that engaged in warfare. Offensive warfare to.

>>20085718
zoomer catholics are so embarrassing, just shut up and stop giving your religion an even worse image than it already has

>>20085373
Is this 177013

>>20085386
>What I don't understand is why virtually all artists and writers are so anti-clerical
Rebellion is the soul of art. Art itself is a rebellion against the mundanity of everyday life. The church was the arbiter of this mundanity with its rigid hierarchy and hypocritical transgressions, which likely have always been more widespread than reported. More than anything, religious people are full of this sanctimonious sense of their own importance. Because they "know God," they are often so many adult versions of That Kid we all knew who bragged about his dad working at Nintendo. The religious, in the exact same way, think they're cool and awesome and important because their dad is (literally) God.

Religion is basically like Nintendo for adults.

>>20085386
You don't really understand the oppressive odiousness of religious culture unless you've been immersed in it for years at a young age. As the other anon said, it's their *presumption* that eats away at you, their sheer arrogance and sanctimonious attitudes towards anything that might undermine their pet fantasy.

We take the secular West for granted today, but any artistic type growing up in the middle east could probably tell you, were they at complete liberty to speak, that they often wish they could express certain opinions and feelings without being summarily beheaded. (It's an abstract sort of feel.)

>>20086049
You evidently don't understand women. You misinterpret his understanding for misogyny, and only because the truth he reveals enrages you. Ironically enough, you are the one who hates women, because you hate their true nature.

>>20085949
>It's like thoughtless but affable golden retriever behavior. You're all golden retrievers
Bet you felt real intellectual writing this, kid

>>20085373
>atheist
Spook.

>French literature
>Perverted
Shocking!

>>20085386
>why virtually all artists and writers are so anti-clerical
They're not, the good ones at least. Why are you so bent out of shape (or acting so) over one faggot failure of a Frenchman. If you mean specifically in modern times you have a point, then the answer to your question is unironically kikes, specifically Edward Bernays. Christianity certainly did more good then bad.

Am I late?

>>20088576
>They're not, the good ones at least
The best of them, at least those who lived in a time where heresy couldn't sometimes get you literally killed, were not. For example, Joyce and Nabokov were, at the very least, dubious toward orthodoxy in all its forms. While spirituality may be omnipresent in the greatest of the greats, it is almost uniformly of a nature that is heterodox if not complete disbelief.

>>20088347
>women like de Sade
>women make the worse choices
I like de Sade, then?
>>20087198
>The more I speak with women the less I care for them.
Maybe their opinion should be ignored. An option immune to failure (unless you need pussy).

>>20088789
You could be a little more concise with your use of language my friend. I wish you would make a statement instead of alluding to one.

>it is almost uniformly of a nature that is heterodox if not complete disbelief.
Well of course, otherwise it won't capture people's attention. Who's to say religion/spirituality/morality can't be progressive (in the true sense of the word, not to refer liberalism). Catholicism is dead in the water and rotting because it was too rigid (in the wrong way), Protestantism is more viable in the modern age for Christians. Doubting orthodoxy is not the same as rejecting it. What I'm saying applies to all systems of thought but specifically religion and art both search for the divine (in beauty or belief).

To reject divinity is to reject life. Men of the clergy and artists are two of the same, there are only only fools who don't understand that.

Come expecting Justine discuss
Get off topic bs

>>20086267
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/703574-the-eyes-emetic-fables-from-the-andalusian-de-sade
Shit negro this looks cool af

>>20088993
>baby_crying.mp3

>>20088454
Salieri pls

>>20088993
How is everyone arguing about Sade and religion off topic to Sade's book in which he argues against religion

>>20085949
>Sade was spiritually female

>>20090197
>loves anal
>loves describing fancy outfits
>loves stories about serial killers
>hates women

>>20090192
No one is discussing Sade beyond caricatures

>>20085373
>>20090680
>Does our cruelty amaze you? Why? A pleasure shared is not necessarily a pleasure increased. Better we concentrate on our own pleasures solely. This flatters our pride the more.

Imagine how great this board could be if there were no trad cath LARPers

>>20090756
Why does the presence of a religious majority upset you so much?

>atheist literature

More like liberal literature. Liberal society will end up with Marquis de Sade eventually.

>>20090770
Because they ruin any discussion about authors that contradict or offend their dogma. We are literally never able to have threads about writers like Sade, Freud, etc. because they just get triggered like a bunch of leftist SJWs and flood the thread. What makes it worse is that it’s an obvious LARP. None of the trad caths here are moralfags. Most of them are unashamedly misogynistic and regularly say hateful things about women, but they suddenly have a problem with sexism when it comes to Sade.

>>20085416
Reddit is atheist and bans Christians

>>20090793
Absolutely not. Liberalism is secular Christianity. Liberals are massive moralfags.
>>20090797
He’s pointing out that retards on here use the same rhetoric as plebbitors. They may have different views (plebbit is left wing and atheist and 4chan is right wing and catholic) but they sound the exact same if you swap out a few words.

>>20090796
I guess I don't really see the problem. The average user hasn't read Sade and never will. This thread is just another instance of small reference pools. The issue isn't the religious element on the board (feigned or otherwise), but the absence of interest in Sade's material.
>Poor Justine, willed by providence to fall into the hands of the guilty and to be their prey. Nature does not leave in our hands the possibility of committing crimes which would conflict with her needs. Equilibrium must be preserved. It can only be preserved by crimes. And, therefore, crimes serve nature.

>>20090756
I don't have to imagine. Seven years ago we were blissfully bullshitting about DFW and having a grand old time. Now this place is filled with (literally retarded) Zoomers with melted Tiktok brains who read an infographic meme, watch a few YouTube quote videos, consume Jordan Peterson nonstop, and think they're suddenly "literate."

The tradcath larpers of today are, irrefutably, of the same genetic makeup as the fedora-tipping atheists of 2010. There's a backlash coming for these little faggots and I cannot wait until there is no longer a safe haven for them on the internet.

>>20086049
Women like to suffer, I don’t get it but they do

>>20086144
>hur dur the bigger picture is proof of its importance
I swear to god women try, try so hard and don’t get the fucking point at all. About anything. People are frauds and get through the system by being a fraud, simple as. Read the actual content and understand the metaphors. You can’t though cause ur pussy won’t let you.

>>20086804
Kek not an argument

>>20088974
>To reject divinity is to reject life. Men of the clergy and artists are two of the same, there are only only fools who don't understand that.
2deep4u
What are you trying to prove to everyone here? Do you see a gilded thread that ties all of our foolishness and wisdom together?

>>20085373
Reminder that, for decadent reactionary Catholics like Baudelaire and Barbey d'Aurevilly, Sade is best read together with Joseph de Maistre (a fallen world of original sin, of evil nature), and that the early Klossowski wrote a book arguing Sade was a gnostic.

>>20093278
Sade is literally the same as today's women "artists" shitting paint out of their vagina in the middle of a public square. Retarded shock value antics.

>>20093707
No he's not, total philistine. He's just over your head.