/lit/ - Literature

not my problem

>>20058146
Alls arts, including literature, are inherently effeminate, and therefore degenerate. That's why /lit/ is gayer than /lgbt/ but in a based way

>>20058167
Philosphy is masculine, which is why it's widely discussed here.

Also >>>/reddit/

>>20058146
I don't mind gay people at all and have been friends with some, but I hate trannies and "non-binaries" and all that shit.

cool as underground gays, but not as corporate lgbtq ideology

>>20058146
There’s not a problem in being gay per se (being gay/bi is a normally occurring behaviour in the animal kingdom), but don’t misunderstand: there’s one big problem in acting on it, as it goes against God’s will for our sexual development as saintly people. It’s just like being a pedophile: i don’t blame them on being one, they’re born this way, but they have to keep their urges on check if they want to live in society.

That doesn’t apply for trans people though. They’re mentally ill people that should be treated as such, not provided means to self-mutilation.

>>20058146
I jack off to 2D traps all the time!

>>20058146
gay men don't exist. they are straight men who's hornyness overcomes their disgust. Some are very horny and with normal amount of disgust, while others are normally horny with low amount of disgust. But there is no sexual attraction to men, only sexual attraction to sex.

>>20058146
Normalizing male homosexuality causes normal men to show less affection to their male friend, thus damaging the fabric of society.
It's not a coincidence that male friends and relatives in low-trust societies tend to kiss each other and even hold hands in public.

>>20058204
>It’s just like being a pedophile
No it isn't, you don't need to be straight live in society

They're fine

>>20058213
Then why are most gay men disgusted by the idea of having sex with women

>>20058195
nah - when socrates tried to reason with other men, to humiliate them with his wily questioning instead of beating them fairly in a contest of strength he was engaging in a feminine activity, a strategy of dominance fit for those weak of body, and this origin consigns philosophy to be forever an effeminate pursuit.

>>20058216
Not in Ancient Greece. The problem isn’t male eros, it’s the stigmatisation of male eros as unmanly

>>20058224
Civilized men exist. In fact, they invented civilization. Sounds like you're just an undignified barbarian.

>>20058146
/lit/ is gay

>>20058216
I wonder what kind of pathology causes someone to adopt this view in contradiction of all scientific and literary evidence (including studies finding that many gay men tend to lose arousal when a woman enter a pornographic scene, and even become disgusted). Furthermore, there have been homosexuals with rather low libidos, and homosexuals, on average, are physiologically and behaviourally different in several respects. For my part, I find males aesthetically pleasing, and women either neutral or distasteful — they often look like Auschwitz prisoners to me

>>20058204
>That doesn’t apply for trans people though. They’re mentally ill people
It's the same as homosexuality and pedophilia. They're mental aberrations that could be accommodated for or discouraged, depending on the needs and desires of the society they belong to.

>>20058226
In Ancient Greece it was mentorship between grown up men and young boys, not sexual intercourse between grown ups. That was still widely discouraged and no random vase painting disproves that if you understand the nature of the vase paintings evidence.

>>20058217
your basic role in society is sustaining it by breeding and raising your own replacements, in which case both a gay man and a strict pedophile (in the sense of desiring only pre-pubescent children) are dysfunctional socially, but a "pedophile" attracted to pubescent girls would be able to impregnate them and thus function correctly.

>>20058250
>your basic role in society is sustaining it by breeding and raising your own replacements
good luck maintaining a "society" if thats everyones only role

>>20058248
>epstain tier elites fuck young boys
>omg it must have been a virtue in tgeir society!!!!
What a stupid cope.

>>20058248
Eromenoi could be in their late teens and early twenties as well (young men, by our standards) and there were same-age romances between youths. Furthermore, we do have evidence of lifelong partnerships like those of Agathon and Pausanias

>>20058250
uhhhhhhhhh

>>20058256
Those boys aren't really "young" though. Until the 20th century when it became a taboo it was perfectly normal for grown men to have sex with adolescents. How old do you think mother Mary is thought to have been when she gave birth to Jesus?

>>20058256
Well considering literary and visual evidence from many cities and centuries describes the practice in positive terms yes, unless you mean to suggest that people like the playwright-cum-war hero Aeschylus, the founder of Stoicism Zeno, et. al constitute ‘Epstein-tier elites’ (even though they were morally conservative and physically disciplined beyond almost anyone today )

>>20058146
nothing wrong with it, not a fan of modern gay "culture" though, but neither are most normal gay people

>>20058146

>>20058232
civilization predates feminine inventions like philosophy by millenia, and "dignity" is exactly what socrates forgoes when he gives up on the world of male competition and starts imitating priestesses and midwives. your very response - trying to paint me as an unacceptable outsider to avoid having to deal with me directly - is itself a quintessentially feminine strategy ("you must be an incel" etc).

>>20058167
>Alls arts, including literature, are inherently effeminate
>Alls arts, including literature, are inherently effeminate
>Alls arts, including literature, are inherently effeminate
>Alls arts, including literature, are inherently effeminate

>>20058267
They were clearly priviledged enough to spend their time with philosophy and poetry, hardly representative for society as a whole just like a modern article in a journal is not representatice for society but a small academic circle jerk.

>even though they were morally conservative and physically disciplined beyond almost anyone today
How do you know? Did you meet them?

P.S. Socrates was sentenced to death for diddeling his students.

>>20058250
There are 8billion people on earth, we don't "need" more

>>20058255
i clearly said "basic role," not "only role." if population replacement is not maintained then it doesn't matter what else you do with your time, your society is going away soon.

>>20058226
Whatever the reason, normalization of male homosexuality damages male friendship.
>Not in Ancient Greece
Not true. Greeks were essentially pedophiles and homosexual relationships between adult men of the same social standing were strongly discouraged. Same as in Rome and pre-modern Japan.

>>20058280
anything but bashing big rocks together and eating boars alive is effeminate

>>20058293
You'll understand when you're older

>>20058284
I hope you didn't sincerely post that image without knowing that Achilles and Patroclus were commonly thought to be lovers by Aeschylus, Plato, etc.

>>20058287
your "society" is not the whole planet. if you don't breed at replacement levels you're getting replaced.

>>20058258
>Furthermore, we do have evidence of lifelong partnerships like those of Agathon and Pausanias
What's your point? I said it was widely discouraged, not that no isolated cases existed. Read Plato's The Laws and Aristophanes' comedies instead of yet another Gay Study Based On Cherrypicked Evidence

>>20058286
>Socrates was sentenced to death for diddeling his students.
what kind of conspiracy theory is this

>>20058299
>an interpretation from classical Greece
Ionians the oldest Greek ethnic group were against the homosexuality. The Athenians influenced by the Dorians, the younger younger Greek ethinc group, normalized homosexuality and naked gymnastics

>>20058298
ah yes, those common insights of the old - i'm so glad i have no family or i wish i had less children or good thing that i'm alone... all those childless old maids going "phew! i dodged a bullet"

>>20058299
>Achilles and Patroclus were commonly thought to be lovers by Aeschylus, Plato
Post source. You won't.

>>20058310
Athenian gay-ops.

>>20058303
That still doesn't mean nobody can be gay, much more deletirous for society to impose stigma to natural harmless behaviour

>>20058293
so that means its everyones role? thats not logical or scientific. you know how many bees in a bee population have kids? one
all im saying is youre not gonna get rid of your villages only butcher just because he accidentally chopped his balls off last month

>>20058318
>I shall speak first about Homer, whom we rank among the oldest and wisest of the poets. He mentions Patroklos and Achilles in many places, but he keeps their erotic love hidden and the proper name of their friendship, thinking that the exceptional extent of their affection made things clear to the educated members of his audience.
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 142-3

>Aeschylus talks nonsense in claiming that Achilles was in love with Patroclus (rather than the other way around), for Achilles was more beautiful than not only Patroclus but all the other heroes as well; and besides, he was unbearded, and thirdly, far younger than Patroclus, as Homer says. Well, anyhow, though the gods really hold in very high esteem that virtue which concerns love, they wonder, admire, band confer benefits even more when the beloved has affection for the lover than when the lover has it for the beloved.
Plato, Symposium 179e-180b

>And you did not respect the chaste consecration of the thighs, oh ungrateful that you were for those countless kisses!
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 135

>I honored the intimacy of your thighs by bewailing you
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 136

>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."
Ps-Lucian, Amores 54

>>20058318
>The honor they gave to Achilles is another matter. They sent him to the Isles of the Blest because he dared to stand by his lover Patroclus and avenge him, even after he had learned from his mother that he would die if he killed Hector, but that if he chose otherwise he’d go home and end his life as an old man. Instead he chose to die for Patroclus, and more than that, he did it for a man whose life was already over. The gods were highly delighted at this, of course, and gave him special honor, because he made so much of his lover. Aeschylus talks nonsense when he claims Achilles was the lover; he was more beautiful than Patroclus, more beautiful than all the heroes, and still beardless. Besides he was much younger, as Homer says.
- the symposium

>>20058318
if you dont know that aeschylus did you probably dont belong on this board :^)

>>20058323
""""harmless"""" behavior

>>20058304
Plato’s The Laws are against pederasty in general, making Plato an anti-traditionalist, and Aristophanes only makes fun of passive male homosexual adults. I don’t disagree with your diagnosis, but certain speakers in Plato and Aristotle discuss how ‘virtuous’ lovers (ie, those not focused simply on the transient beauty of the boy) will love their eromenoi after they have grown beards

>>20058146
I believe they’re ultimately lost and the victims of sexual abuse/pornography addiction/media brainwashing.
I can deal with and be pleasant to gays irl but if they’re they’re OTT about their faggotry and they’re high pitched and mincing around, they annoy me and I want nothing to do with them.
I don’t agree with their way of life but they can be alright.
Picrel is my favourite (former) gay person.

>>20058311
I thought some of the most famous pederast poets were from Ionia. Greeks associated laws against pederasty with rule by barbarians and Persians

>>20058327
>>20058330
>>20058332
>quotes by fictional characters in their artistic works represent the opinions of the authors
Sounds like none of you should be allowed to read.

>>20058323
some of the things gay people do to each other is far from being considered harmless

>>20058348
The first quote is from a legal oration, so it is pretty safe to assume it represents the view of the author. The second quote is a character in Plato but one representative of a real person. The third and fourth quotes are direct quotes from Achilles as depicted by Aeschylus, so yes, Aeschylus depicts Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, and the last quote is from a dialogue on homosexuality where the speaker quotes Aeschylus’ play.

>>20058295
Eromenoi (beloveds) age could range from preadolescent to mid-twenties. Pic related, an ancient Athenian statue of the lovers Harmodius and Aristogeiton. Not that Aristogeiton is not a “little boy” but a muscular youth who has attained “full height” (a phrase used in some ancient texts to describe beloveds)

>>20058356
>The first quote
Not classical Greece, so how is that relevant?
>The second quote is a character
Exactly.
>The third and fourth quotes [...] Aeschylus depicts Achilles and Patroclus as lovers
Yes, dramatists created fictional depictions of known mythological motifs. Doesn't say anything about the opinions of the author regarding Homer's work.
>last quote
AD writer quoteed a passage from a fictional play, cool.

Unfortunately, none of what you posted so far backs up your initial claim
>Achilles and Patroclus were commonly thought to be lovers by Aeschylus, Plato, etc.

>>20058146

>>20058376
That's not true. I did.

>>20058373
>Unfortunately, none of what you posted so far backs up your initial claim
>>Achilles and Patroclus were commonly thought to be lovers by Aeschylus, Plato, etc.
What do you mean the first quote isn’t classical Greece? Aeschines was literally a lawyer in classical Athens, contemporary with Demosthenes. His quote indicates that the Athenians interpreted the words of Homer in the light of contemporary Greek social practices. The belief that heroes and gods (such as Zeus, Heracles, Apollo, etc.) engaged in pederastic relationships was common place by the Archaic era, as poetry from Theognis onward indicates. This is not controversial. These quotes adequately demonstrate that the depiction of Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was commonplace in Ancient Greece. Note, for instance, that the speaker’s assertion in Plato’s Symposium is not challenged by anyone. This is different from claiming that Achilles and Patroclus were homosexual in the original Homeric text, which no one ITT has done.

Well I am fanatically anti-homosexual and I have a deeprooted loathing of homosexuals. It's instinctual and unexplained, and also is very petty. For example, I can't listen to Judas Priest anymore because I learned Rob Halford is gay. Same with Queen - not sure how the latter of the two I didn't pick up on until relatively recently.
But in spite of that, I am still most definitely a homosexual myself. I've had romantic and sexual interest with several men in my life, although nothing resulted from them. Every day I experience great pain from this fact, but I have no recourse in the matter.

>>20058348
cant say ive seen that argument applied to socrates words in a platonic dialogue before, interesting though

We simply got too cocky straight bros…

>>20058146
I think of it as sexual retardation, the subconscious ritual of properly transferring sexual desires to the opposite sex simply dosen't happen for one or other reason. And since the first object of desire is oneself something similar is chosen as the new object, people of the same sex.

>>20058382
>What do you mean the first quote isn’t classical Greece?
Fair, I mistook him for a Hellenistic writer.
>These quotes adequately demonstrate that the depiction of Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was commonplace in Ancient Greece. Note, for instance, that the speaker’s assertion in Plato’s Symposium is not challenged by anyone.
In fact, Xenophon in his Symposium specifically addresses that point by having Socrates clarify that they were not lovers but companions. So, no, you haven't demonstrated that it was commonplace, you just omitted evidence that would go against your view. Also, your initial claim was that Aeschylus & Plato thought them to be lovers, which you seem to have dropped due to lack of appropriate evidence and quiety shifted to a different claim about what was "commonplace in Ancient Greece".

>>20058146
Ban it

>>20058195
why do women read so much more than men

>>20058146
Gross deviation.

>>20058413
1) It takes longer to read a philosophical treatise than a YA book
2) Women are overrepresented in humanities degrees because these departments pander to them
3) Women are rewarded with attention and social points for reading, which they thrive off.
4) Women have more free time because of materenity leave and less demanding jobs
5) Women use Goodreads more for validation
6) Non-intellectual men have physical hobbies as opposed to non-intellectual women

Overall, only 5% of the population should read, and about 80% of that population should be male.

>>20058146
Sodomites, pedophiles, disease spreaders, mentally ill, morally bankrupt

>>20058434
This thread is about homosexuals not abrahamists

Hate them.

>>20058372
>Aristogeiton is not a “little boy”
He's not a free adult male. There is no positive representations of two adult citizens being butt-buddies. Because homosociality and homosexuality are incomparable.

>>20058447
Abrahamist homosexuals aren't any different from athetist/agnostic homosexuals. Well, they're maybe a bit less degenerate.

>>20058195
Consooming philosophy books =/= being a philosopher. You are reading the thoughts of more elevated, feminine-like souls. Philisophy, as an art, requires interiorization, reflexivity, mind and heart mastering over mere carnality. You are proving my point
>>20058284
The Illiad wasn't written by the greek heroes you imbecile
Cope, again, thanks for proving my point

>>20058404
I should have clarified, within that dialogue. In other threads I have quoted Xenophon’s passage criticising the claim. I think it is noteworthy however that Xenophon’s argument (in the voice of Socrates) is a dissension from what our other sources say. Plato as an author criticised pederasty, but did not challenge the claim

>>20058493
You are just a homosexual projecting your narrow worldview onto normal people.

>>20058467
>He's not a free adult male.
How do you know? In several Athenian orations male beloveds are described as ‘meirakia’ — a word which denotes a free adult male between the ages of 18 and 21. Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, said that one should love youths even aged 28