/lit/ - Literature

The cool mental illness, depression. You are complicit in your own suffering.

>>19975640
Are brain chemicals a meme as well?

The Bible and Man's Search for Meaning

>>19975684
No such thing.

the sorrows of young werther

I sort of believe this, despite also realising the body has a huge effect on the mind and how one feels. I think it stems back partly to Meditations by Aurelius and my reading of NLP. It made it all seem like depression was just a way of thinking that could be reasoned through with certain techniques. Of course, over the years I have still gone on and off medications ...

Siddartha, Campbell's Portable Jung, Ecclesiastes, Sayings of the Buddha

>>19975702
So brain chemicals aren't real?

>>19975722
You have no idea what you're talking about. If there was some "brain chemicals" that depressed people had missing, it would be very east to design a cure. Since every anti-depressant is basically equivalent to a placebo (with very nasty side effects) clearly that isn't the case.

>>19975737
How would you propose send a "brain chemical" directly into the brain without an invasive procedure? Don't say just swallowing because that goes through the whole body which causes side ffects like you mentioned

>>19975737
>its a placebo
>it has nasty side effects
pick 1

>>19975640
isn't this an adult website?

>>19975640
Steppenwolf is the book you are looking for

>>19975761
no it's mainly populated by the under 30

>>19975737
>You have no idea what you're talking about. If there was some "brain chemicals" that depressed people had missing, it would be very east to design a cure.

Depressed people don't have "missing" brain chemicals. They have lower amounts of brain chemicals, one of which is serotonin. It's possible to regulate that imbalance with SSRIs so yes, there's a "cure".
Also what >>19975752 said. How can a placebo have nasty side effects? Are you sure that you are the one who knows what you are talking about?

>In fact, the DSM allows for all relevant parties — including the mentally ill and their families — to benefit in this crass financial way. Without a diagnosis of a ‘pathology’ it recognises, clinicians and their patients are unable to claim insurance payments and drug companies (and the researchers they fund) are unable to push their dubious nostrums without establishing that they can be used, specifically, to treat one of these ‘disease entities’. Since the second world war, which was the proximate reason for the creation of the DSM, the supposed incidences of all mental pathologies in the USA, from autism to schizophrenia, have increased exponentially. The question is: is this a function of iatrogenesis — doctor-created diseases — or have Americans (and their little British cousins) become substantially more mentally ill?

>>19975840
>Just how messy and incoherent the behind-the-scenes negotiations were is nicely captured in Horwitz’s discussion of the creation of major depressive disorder (MDD), which eliminated earlier distinctions between neurotic and psychotic depression, lumping together a disorder that was widespread but often not severe with a much rarer incapacitating condition:
>Someone who had been severely depressed for years, could not leave her bed, and had continuous thoughts of worthlessness had MDD, as had an adolescent who felt depressed and unable to feel pleasure, had trouble sleeping, and lost his appetite and concentration after his girlfriend broke up with him two weeks before.
>As a “major” disease, MDD expanded the market for psychiatric services and for the highly profitable drugs prescribed to treat it. “Between 1987 and 1997,” writes Horwitz, “the proportion of the US population receiving outpatient treatment for conditions called ‘depression’ increased by more than 300 percent.”

>>19975798
Any benefit accrued from pic related was placebo, yet a bunch of people bought into radioactive make up and toothpaste.

Obviously a placebo can have nasty side effects.

That said, I don't think SSRIs are a placebo. But they're pretty shit at what they're trying to do, given the average positive mood effect is approximately equivalent to that of a good nights sleep.

Personally, I don't think that's a good trade for any of the probable side effects, but YMMV.

We already know how to treat depression -- do communal activities, exercise, eat better, you know. It's just hard to do while you're depressed. But it works.

a lot of depression is just people upset because their lives are shit and they have no meaning. it makes sense to be depressed for most people.

>>19975710
fucking dying

>>19975737
This is the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard. If I took a look at all the clocks lying around in the year 500 and decided none of them were very accurate, does that prove time isn't real?

>>19976221
But time isn’t real

>>19975737
>If there was some "brain chemicals" that depressed people had missing, it would be very east to design a cure.
this is the intelligence of your average /lit/ poster, ladies and gentlemen
this is the type of person you argue with everyday

>>19975640
unironically Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher

>>19976718
oh you mean that guy who killed himself over a meme?

>>19975737
The brain chemicals are real, the problem is that the mental health industry addresses the chemicals instead of addressing the source of the problem, and does so because it's acting in bad faith.
The current situation with mental health is like having a gigantic spike in random stabbings in the streets, and the government, instead of improving law enforcement, decides that the problem is solved by having hospitals buy more bandages. And the bandages are soaked in poison.

I've been on citalopram for about 18 months but I stopped cold turkey about a week ago. I keep getting brain zaps. All the time. And I feel really tired. I suppose that's not too bad.

>>19976221
You really suck at making points

>>19975737
how are people failing for this bait

>>19975687
Man's search for meaning is incredibly underwhelming.

Depression is 100% real, but 90% of the "cases " are bs, those are just a bunch of people who are bored, need good diets, exercise and hobbies.

>>19976952
Seethe

>>19977030
Yeah everyone and their mother “has” depression now. Few people have it enough to be noticeably screwed up or affected in any way other than internally.

>>19975640
>>19975702
>>19975737
/lit/ has become infested with actual, legitimate retards

>>19975640
Picrel

>>19977263
Everytime someone posts a basedjack in response to a midwit, a dimwit thinks they're welcome here.

>>19975737
Someone throw Tom Cruise back into the manlet pit

>>19977078
just like "everybody is a little autistic/adhd"

>>19975798
>They have lower amounts of brain chemicals, one of which is serotonin.
This is incorrect. No monoamine theory of depression has ever met the standards to be supported by the APA, and cursory research on the topic should show you the many reasons why.
>>19975798
>How can a placebo have nasty side effects
One of the reasons why everyone knows the term SSRI is because drugs companies cherry picked studies to underestimate how many serotonin receptors those drugs would find affinity with. Because there is a proven demonstrated fact that serotonin affects heart function. SSRIs are not as selective as they were first thought to be, so the obvious outcome is that they take about four years off heart health.
And you're wrong about how placebos and nocebos work- a harmless substance can be used to garner a good outcome or a negative one with the power of suggestion. You can also use a harmful substance to do the same thing- you will often see this in questionable home remedy products where they explain the sweating/vomiting/diarrhea as proof the product is really working. The beneficial effects of SSRIs don't even exist above the levels of a harmless placebo, but they still have the harmful effects of exogenous serotonin.

>>19977078
>Few people have it enough to be noticeably screwed up or affected in any way other than internally.
"He seemed so happy I don't know why he killed himself."

>>19975640
telling the depressed that what they're feeling isn't real is one of the Unwitting Evils; you however, OP, are committing an evil by knowing that depression exists yet still insisting it does not. I suggest you repent.

>>19978624
I'm depressed and even I know it isn't real

>>19975640
Here!

https://youtu.be/TVgQ_tgWMyU

>>19975640
Depression is a first world meme

>>19975737
5/10. got me to give up a (You)

>>19976697
joke's on you, I don't argue with them

>>19975640
I think its a composite. You can definitley psyche yourself into it inn part and it being an effect of a general atmosphere that legitimizes it. But there are actual causes too, so its weird.

>>19976052
>>19975798
>>19978744
>>19977919
>>19977263
>>19977337
>>19977010
>>19976859
>>19976697
>>19978956
>>19976221
>>19975752
>>19975798
>>19975750
Imagine being so entrenched in contemporary pop-psychology that you actually get so defensive about their marketing. I mean it's nice to think that nothing is ever your fault, and you don't have to change your beliefs or anything at all - just pop a pill. Sorry, this guy explained it all to you: >>19978221
>And you're wrong about how placebos and nocebos work- a harmless substance can be used to garner a good outcome or a negative one with the power of suggestion. You can also use a harmful substance to do the same thing- you will often see this in questionable home remedy products where they explain the sweating/vomiting/diarrhea as proof the product is really working. The beneficial effects of SSRIs don't even exist above the levels of a harmless placebo, but they still have the harmful effects of exogenous serotonin.

It's a scam my dear friends. And you are "depressed" pieces of shit and it's all your fault. Nobody is going to help you.

^bait

>>19976859
>the problem is that the mental health industry addresses the chemicals instead of addressing the source of the problem,
They do address the actual problem, it's called psychotherapy.
Drugs are actually not meant to "cure" mundane depressions, they only exist as a "last resort" kind of thing or at most, to supplement psychotherapy so you don't kill yourself or quit your job.
Time is the best cure to something like depression, but people don't feel like they can live half a year in melancholy because their mother died in an accident.

And in most other cases, there is no way to address "the source of the problem". If you're legitimately schizophrenic or have severe OCD, life-long medication is basically mandatory. Psychotherapy still helps a ton for these people, but these problems are virtually not curable.

>>19975684
Brain chemicals? If you mean neurotransmitters aren't memes. But the idea that Dopamine is the 'reward' molecule, Oxytocin the 'love' molecule, and Testosterone the 'aggression' molecule is a total meme, it's just like the 7 chakras bullshit.
Dopamine is also associated with increased stress, Oxytocin makes people more suspicious of outgroups and more inclined to stereotyping and jealousy. Testosterone doesn't change sexual proclivities, castrated bulls will still try to fuck. However higher Testosterone, interestingly, will amplify the effects of Dopamine which might explain why everyone is happy and generous when they win an award, always kissing and hugging. Victory increases testosterone.
It's motherfucking complicated.
There's certainly far more complicated nuances to this. For example, serotonin in your gut doesn't affect serotonin in your brain. You can't just eat a fucktonne of typtophan-3 high turkey meat and expect to be happy.
This is why giving medication to anyone who hasn't got ridiculously high/low levels of a particular neurotransmitter is stupid.
>>19979199
>they only exist as a "last resort" kind of thing
This.
>>19977337
Well said.
Or thinking the Gigachad greentext is anything by ironic

Itt a bunch of 1st world tutorial toddlers defending big pharma lmao

>>19975684
>>19975702
>>19975722
>>19975737
>>19975750

>>19979199
>you're legitimately schizophrenic or have severe OCD, life-long medication is basically mandatory
If you're legitimately schizophrenic your best outcome is to avoid western psychiatry. The greatest predictor of recovery and minimal symptoms is not being treated by Western psychiatric methods; there's genuine ethical debate whether western psychiatrists should be allowed treat schizophrenics at all because their outcomes are so much worse it may meet the standards for active harm.

>>19979421
>The greatest predictor of recovery and minimal symptoms is not being treated by Western psychiatric methods
Because people who don't have severe symptoms don't go to psychiatrics? What's your point?

Reading this book right now: Insane Medicine: How the Mental Health Industry Creates Damaging Treatment Traps and How you can Escape Them. Author is a smart guy knows his shit, someone with courage to go against big pharma as a practicing psychiatrist is gigachad

Goodreads link: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56932903-insane-medicine

People who are saying it's a chemical imbalance are giga autists, there's literally 0 scientific evidence behind it. Also diagnosis by the DSM is dumbest shit ever, no actual solid research backing it up. Big Pharma LARPING to get easy bucks. Mental illness is real but the way we solve in the west is a joke, 90% environmental it's not like humans evolved with all these illnesses within the last what 100 years, get based anons

>>19979423
That people who have severe initial psychotic breaks in all other systems are less likely to develop constant symptoms, less likely to develop depressive symptoms, less likely to have repeated psychotic breaks, and die much later with fewer complications. Your argument is like saying "people without stage four cancer don't try quack medicine".

>>19979555
>Your argument is like saying "people without stage four cancer don't try quack medicine".
Not really, it's more akin to "People with benign cancers don't need to have them fixed in the first place".

The Myth of Mental Illness by Thomas Szasz - does a good job of explaining how mental illness is partially socially constructed without being straight up >none of it is real bro

>>19975640
industrial society and its future

>>19979509
>>19979509
There's a ton of biological evidence, what the fuck are you talking about? Short serotonin receptors are a genetic trait -- people with said neurological phenotype are more prone to developing major depressive disorder than those with long (normal) serotonin receptors. Short serotonin (or any monoamine based neurotransmitter to be honest) receptors are worse at performing MAO (monoamine oxidase) reuptake. Saying there is no biochemical factor is just plain retarded. Tons of mental illnesses (schizophrenia, early onset Alzheimer's, autism, bipolar disorder) all have significant genetic markers in the central nervous system. Maybe you inherited microcephaly, who knows.

>>19975640
Depression is by definition a meme. There's nothing else to discuss.

Depression is a real phenomenon. I had a bad reaction to some medication for my hyperthyroidism that made me feel lethargic, demotivated, and depressed. I struggled to will myself to do anything and I felt like I was in a constant state of despair. I was not suicidal, but I questioned what the purpose was of continuing when humanity's death was seemingly inevitable.

Logic and philosophy can fight it, but it doesn't get rid of the constant weight on your shoulders. Everything feels so far away.

>>19979661
Except they only develop the stage four symptoms when treated by one system. Think about that for a second, because when presented with such evidence as decades of research flagging this phenomenon, persisting in the riskier treatment with no hope of different results looks close to declaring schizophrenia a symptom of life unworthy of life. There's enough evidence that it actively harms patients that your incentive to ignore the evidence is going to be pretty ethically weak, and likely shift the cause of the worse outcome to the patient's pathology and not the iatrogenic cause we have a plethora of evidence for spanning decades.

>>19979829
>"Normal" brains
[laughter in WEIRD intensifies]

>>19979509
>it's not like humans evolved with all these illnesses within the last what 100 years,
It absolutely is like that. Social media, extremely dense concentrations of humans colloquially reffered to as "cities", mass popularisation of escapist media (e.g. video games, TV shows), male genital mutilation colloquially reffered to as "circumcision, and trashy modern diets have all contributed to the developments of mental illnesses in the West.

Jews are the apex of "Modern societies don't work". Just look at how well documented their mental illness rates, e.g. schizophrenia are. They are very vulnerable because they are closer to what nature has intended for humans; small communes of tight-knit and high-trust groups.
Whites and Asians have evolved to withstand city life somewhat, but not entirely.

>>19979923
Meanwhile people in the 1600s thought actual witches and supernatural beings sent by the antichrist were among them

>>19979964

>>19975737
>If there was some "brain chemicals" that depressed people had missing, it would be very east to design a cure

This is my favorite logical fallacy. The fact that you can't see the obstacles doesn't make it easy.

Depression is real, but it's also true meds don't really fix it. It's just one of those diseases that happens to some people for no reason, makes your life objectively worse than a normal person's, and the only benefit is maybe you'll produce some good art from your suffering to the delight of others

>>19980524
it's called the human condition, psychophysiology tried to trivialize it and make it profane - but it isn't

>>19975684
yes

>>19979421
>The greatest predictor of recovery and minimal symptoms is not being treated by Western psychiatric methods;
How has this been measured?

>>19980524
Depression isn't an illness. It's the typical reaction any sentient being would gain after being put in an environment such as ours. It's the logical endpoint of true awareness.
It's also not eternal. There's salvation in everything from art to the mundane and from life-changing enlightenment to routines; it's just a matter of living out what you particularly need. Also helps to then write about it.

>>19980821
Not him but it's a pretty big meme in social sciences. Native tribes people were doing better at it than we were back in the 1970s when comparative studies started, and for a while they thought maybe it was genetic (white people get all the smart genes and make us extra schizo) or that it was environmental (society makes people schizophrenic because society is just moving so fast) to explain why people who moved to rich countries got it worse too, but then they started exporting doctors from the west to help the much smaller amount of non-westrrn schizos and now the main theory is doctors cause it to get worse, and giving the doctors legal powers makes it even worse again, and we should maybe stop exporting doctors
Nature does a bit on it every few years, but since we're now exporting doctors and things are getting worse for people where they haven't any genetic similarities and they haven't industrialised or really any other western contact other than attending in westernised hospitals, it's getting pretty sketch to keep exporting doctors.

It was a big medical mystery that everyone wanted to solve back in the 70s but now I think most of psychiatry wants to ignore it lol
One of the theories based on genetics I think was that the west had more neanderthal blood left in them and it was a neanderthal disease, but then it turned out all their eastern descendants showed no propensity for it either. Which is kinda crazy because they were trying to say Neanderthals were the white rich people of today and that's why those take more drugs. I've seen /pol/ and /his/ reach less on race theories than that but it's still an acceptable working theory in the west

>>19980778
>>19980843
t. never experienced depression

>>19981096
neither have you, truly depressed people kill themselves

>>19981091
The best way to treat schizos is with religion. Whether you think it's real or just psychological they respond positively to "exorcizing" their voices

>>19977263
Reatards who fall for painfully obvious bauts. Lurk more.

>>19981125
lol not a bad take but psychiatry kind of needs them to pay their bills. I don't think any industry would respond well to Just divert all their funds to the churches!

>>19979292
>Reductive determinism somehow doesn't account for emergent qualities because I don't understand it and it's way more convenient to attack it if it doesn't so I'll pretend it's that way
That comic is retarded to begin with