/lit/ - Literature

This, but absolutely unironically

>>19968426
>>19969157
which visual novels are better than /lit/?

>>19968426
>bashes a bunch of wildly cherished literature
>doesn't give a single example of a good vn

What are your favourite visual novels Opie? I would like to try them.

I’m open minded enough to consider that there are great visual novels, but to date I’ve only read Muv Luv, which I turned off fairly quickly. What should I read instead?

>>19969395
sakuta translation when?

>>19968426
>Proud of having been filtered by literature
Go back to /v/

Role playing games are better than sheer genre fiction and I'm sick of pretending they're not.

I keep seeing people shill Umineko but it looks pretty abhorrent from the images. Is it really that good?

>>19970223
Better how?

>>19970131
Muv-Luv is pretty meh and overhyped as shit for whatever reason. It's not bad but it doesn't really do anything interesting. The medium has some gems but if you get the wrong recommendations it's very easy to dismiss all of them as stupid bullshit.
For general recommendations go with:
Subahibi - Some people love it and some people hate it but nobody denies that it's crazy fun to read. There's lots of ideas from Wittgenstein and Jung so if you're into that you'll have a great time.
Saya no Uta: It's about 5 hours long so go with this one first if you don't mind cunny. Great lovecraftian stuff.
Ever17: Kids get trapped in an underwater themepark and are trying to escape. A little bloated with the slice of life but has one of the biggest 'holy fucking shit' moments ever if you make it to the final route.
Anything by ryukishi07 is good but usually very bloated other than his shorter works like Higanbana.
There's also some 'meh' visual novels that I wouldn't absolutely recommend but they're still fun like dies irae and valhalla. Never read fata morgana, it's boring garbage.
>>19970232
It's a bloated mess with some of the craziest ideas ever in fiction. It's absolutely worth reading but it's not consistently amazing. Everybody thinks the sprite art is ehh at first and then comes to love it later on. Use the voice patch on top of the original art for the best experience.

Milk inside a bag of milk inside a bag of milk is a good indie "short story".
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1392820/Milk_inside_a_bag_of_milk_inside_a_bag_of_milk/

WA2chads rise up

>>19970725
>filename
Absolutely abhorrent. And I say that as someone with dogshit filenames.

>>19970735
sorry bro

>>19968426
There is not even a single visual novel on the level of the best graphic novels. Tell me who's the Alan Moore of visual novels, you can't, there is no such person.

>tfw no Saya gf

>>19970738
Narahara Ittetsu

>>19968426
As someone who regularly consumes visual novels, has finished more than 50 and learnt Japanese with a recent N1 score of 150+ for the sole reason of experiencing them in their intended form, I will never not laugh at this take, because it's fucking retarded. Visual novels are no better than YA novels in general, Subahibi mentioned ITT literally could be one if we take out the spicy scenes because it's philosophy is high school tier. And their writing is usually abhorrent because the text has to fit in the box, a visual novel with good prose is extremely rare, basically no one but Mareni were able to wrote them. Translated versions are quite often better than the original. Most visual novels are fun in the same way as pulp fiction or exploitation movies, trying to be pretentious but behind the facade it's still just a porn game made to jerk off.
I would recommend those that were written by the mentioned Mareni, Romeo or Urobochi. There are a few other good writers but you can pretty much finish all existing vns that are worthy to read in 2 years.

>>19970814
yeah, I've tried my hand at a few of the so called greats but I'm too well versed in other forms of mature media and art to find them exceptional. They're all bloated to hell with rudimentary prose and pretty juvenile. I was curious how a real auteur could use the medium in unique ways for narrative structure and art and I did get some of that with say Umineko but god it's really tough to say it was worth the 100+hr investment. I get the appeal for certain types of people but they're a timesink trap if you're looking to excavate hidden gems of incredible art. At the end of the day it's a very commercialized medium tailored to the japanese market full of coomerbait and appealing to stunted adolescents. What few exceptions there are with intellectual aspirations are still fairly middling especially compared to works in other mediums if you're not a teenager. Seems to me they are best for genre fair like mysteries and romance.
In that vain I can give a strong recommendation to Raging Loop as a sharp and interesting entry point if you like mysteries. No coomer bait, very little fluff in the prose or narrative filler, respects your time with it's pacing (still like 30hrs) and one of the best "death game" time-loop stories I've read.

>>19968426

>>19970814
>Mareni
I laugh. Albatross was pretty bad all things considered.
You're not wrong, however. Visual novels do excel for being wish-fulfillment YA schlock, and they're written to properly meet this purpose and little more. I'd argue they don't even AIM to have good prose (for as good as a job Jackson did on OreTsuba, to name one example); it's in their best interest to stay as far away from concise writing as possible to instead serve as a direct window into another world. Good stories, philosophical explorations and even proper prose are all secondary to either chuuni badassery or icha-icha with the heroines.
And that's okay. This is probably as good as self-indulgent male erotica gets.
You're slightly wrong about translators, though. See, that's the thing about people working on translating Japanese pornography into another language and being paid like shit in the process: they're as far from being good writers as it gets. At least the ambiguity of Japanese as a language lets you pretend more easily that a slight minimum of competence was involved in the production process.

>>19970656
What about Fate and Tsukihime?

>>19968426
Most books provide no wisdom whatsoever. Well, let me explain. I read hundreds of a books a year or whatever, I have a full time job as a night watchman so all I do is get paid to read.

It is exceptionally rare to learn anything at all from books. I can read dozens of war stories involving bridges but I would not say I am more wise today than I was yesterday because I happen to know more about bridge warfare. Accumulation of knowledge isn't what I believe makes you wiser.

So, if you're not actually learning, it's just a pastime, the same as video games or movies. There's maybe one book in every million that can speak to you and tell you something truly profound. It is quite likely different for everyone, sort of how I'm sure almost none of you give a fuck about the Mona Lisa, but you've all at one point or another found an image that entrances you.

>>19971110
>Fate
Pure trash
>Tsukihime
Pretty good. I'm of course talking about the original.

>>19970656
>It's a bloated mess with some of the craziest ideas ever in fiction.
Like what? Can you give us a hint

>>19971110
I've only watched the anime for fate but I'm told that the visual novel is like Dies Irae which I have read so it's probably fun. Pretty long though. Tsukihime I've only read a small part of to see where ryukishi got some of his inspiration from. They're probably decent but I'd need to read more of them to give any judgement worth listening to.

>>19971110
As a Nasuversefag, It seems both Fate and Tsukihime were written by someone with actual aspirations to be a serious writer and combined it with the whole otaku VN scene. But, nevertheless, it's chunni YA from an unexperienced author with some insightful and somewhat interesting ideas but not quite well fleshed out.
Worth the read if you have a bone for that chunni melancholic juvenile stuff and I certainly enjoyed them very much. But they are not nowhere near of being good literature.

>>19971148
Fate and DI being the same is a meme. "Autistic MC and his hot blonde European companion must overcome increasingly dangerous supernatural enemies" is where the similarities begin and end.

Dies Irae is extremely fun by the way. Kei best girl.

The only VN I've read is tokyo necro, is there anything similar?

>>19971142
It's a mystery story where you can read the entire thing and still be confused about what happened. Lots of meta stuff too, it's nothing short of genius no matter what you think of Ryukishi's prose and long-winded writing style. It's also worth noting to first time readers that it has the best soundtrack ever made. 200-ish tracks and they're all 10/10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepsIJwTc2U

>>19971178
Trifa = Kotomine
Marie = Saber
Kei = Rin
Himuro = Sakura
Rusalka = Ilyia

>>19971178
>Dies Irae is extremely fun by the way. Kei best girl.
It's bloated as shit like most visual novels but my god the Marie route is hype as fuck. Everything else is meh but the entire thing is worth reading just for that climax.

>>19970656
>There's lots of ideas from Wittgenstein and Jung so if you're into that you'll have a great time.
Cool, I knew my intuition wouldn't let me down with SubaHibi. But is there anything that goes further than that title? Any visual novels inspired by G.W.F. Hegel, or A. N. Whitehead, G. Deleuze?

>>19971135
Have you ever considered this says more about you as a reader and the material you choose to read than it does about the quality of literature overall? I'd argue the entire Western canon is, at the very least, pretty enlightening if you think through its lines. Works on cultures from foreign lands, theological explorations and literary fiction allowing you to hold close conversations with great dead men are something that ultimately does lead to a wiser self. Hell, just expanding your vocabulary and learning new languages allows you to experience completely different perspectives and polish your own thought, in turn extending your understanding of the world.

>>19970656
>Muv-Luv is pretty meh and overhyped as shit for whatever reason.
I disagree anon. I thought it was a good fun read and certainly worth the time if you like VN and/or military space operas. But, if there is something that kills it, is that you have to crawl like 25 hours before you even begin the ride. I feel like the reward is worthy but I know this doesn't apply to everyone.

>>19971206
>I thought it was a good fun read and certainly worth the time if you like VN and/or military space operas
Well yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. It's decent but it's certainly nothing mind blowing like some of the other stuff in the medium.

>>19971170
Any more recommendations for this intersection of serious writing and otaku thing? Other than those that have been mention obviously.

>>19971199
>Any visual novels inspired by G.W.F. Hegel, or A. N. Whitehead, G. Deleuze?
I think subahibi breifly mentions Hegel for a few jokes but other than that I have no idea. I'd love to do an even deeper dive into the medium but they're all so fucking long that it's hard to pick.

>>19971206
This is what made me drop it actually.

Visual Novels are even lower than anime in the otaku hierarchy.
They hire literally the bottom of the barrel rejects that couldn’t make it in anime to make the illustrations and they just look awful.
You have to be truly bad to make Korean temp slave animation look good by comparison.

>>19971250
0/10 bait but you can have a pity (You)

>Subahibi
I'm about halfway through and find it incredibly boring. the kind of stuff that could only be interesting to an edgelord teenager. you speak of wittgenstein and jung but thus far anything approaching philosophy has just been window dressing psycho-babble adorning the protagonists descent into psychosis as pretense for taboo breaking hentai porn. maybe they have a strong narrative payoff later but if you're championing saya no uta alongside it that only reinforces my belief.

>>19971187
How are Kotomine and Trifa similar aside from being priests and baddies? Hell, Trifa is Orthodox so they don't even have that in common. Evil priests aren't exactly uncommon. It's even worse with Marie = Saber. Yeah they're both European blondes and autistic but that's where it ends.

>>19971188
True, common route is bloated and I'd say Kasumi route is pretty underwhelming but once you lock into a route things pick up. The einherjar fights are always cool, especially when it's not Ren fighting them. Lisa, Kei, Wilhelm and Rusalka all have a pretty great fight. The climax in Rea is better than Marie I think.

>>19971329
>The climax in Rea is better than Marie I think.
Naaaaaahhh I was really anticipating it but was disappointed. It wasn't hype enough. Afaik the original writer only made the Kasumi and Marie routes for the also sprach zarathustra version and then they had to get other people to do the Kei and Rea routes for acta est fabula/amentes amentes because he got writers block or some shit.

>>19971353
Seeing snek finally join the battle in earnest and getting the ending he deserves was very satisfying for me. It's unfortunate that his tactics aren't as interesting as Reinhardt 's legion or Ren and his buds, but I really can't think of anything he could do to make his tactics more interesting since Mercurius alonex is on the brink of lunacy and wants to be beaten more than anything in the universe.

>>19971300
>I'm about halfway through and find it incredibly boring
To each their own I guess. I found subahibi to be one of the best paced visual novels and that the philosophical/psychological references were well placed in the narrative to not be hammered in for no reason. Putting aside whatever you think to it's intellectual depth I have no idea how you find it boring, it's by far one of the most unique and fun reads I've ever had.
>the kind of stuff that could only be interesting to an edgelord teenager
Well, the entire of its my own invention is about an edgelord teenager after all.
>maybe they have a strong narrative payoff later but if you're championing saya no uta alongside it that only reinforces my belief.
Nothing I can say to this other than shit taste. Saya is great.

>>19971417
I should probably add to that first point that there were random references to philosophers to go 'haha, im well-read guys' like pic related in >>19971224 but the references that were actually relevant to the narrative were solid and interesting.

For all the pretentious pseudo-intellectualizing and excessive, incoherent, pointless ranting SubaHibi is guilty of, it still explores existentialist themes and teh human condition more thoroughly, compassionately, truthfully than a lot of supposed classics - say, Picture of Dorian Grey, Narziss und Goldmund, Gatsby.
I'm not sure if that's good enough for it to be considered great, but still.

>やはり、素晴らしき日々でした!
such literature

>>19970725
WA2 scratches the more pervy itch that great novels about infidelity like Anna Karenina don't want to scratch. And I'm not just talking about straight up lewd stuff. I like how over the top, sensetional and shameless it is.

>>19971416
>Seeing snek finally join the battle in earnest and getting the ending he deserves was very satisfying for me
Sure it was satisfying but it doesn't even come close to the hype of the Marie route. https://youtu.be/aJ_VVMjDeEE?t=405
The build up with the three commanders wasn't as good and the music choice for the final fight was ehh. They went for a more grandiose spectacle rather than something hype and I just wasn't as much of a fan.

>>19971451
>it still explores existentialist themes and teh human condition more thoroughly, compassionately, truthfully than a lot of supposed classics - say, Picture of Dorian Grey, Narziss und Goldmund, Gatsby.
Yeah. I think I close my eyes to some of the more negative aspects that are pointed out about the VN because the whole denpa atmosphere and aesthetic is right up my alley and to my taste. If it's not of philosophical interest to some who are extremely well-read it undoubtedly is interesting enough from a psychological perspective to be worth the read.

>>19971470
The funny thing is that Sakura no Uta literally pulls a namedrop like this during its ending paragraph.

>>19971504
The (as far as I can tell) surface-level philosophical namedropping wouldn't matter as much if most of the weebs who give something as simultaneously pretentious and campy weren't a bit pretentious themselves.
As it stands, I think a lot of readers get caught up in the empty appearance of depth and end up missing the things the story does genuinely well because they're too preoccupied with trying to relate things to Wittgenstein's tractatus and its significance for the broader history of philosophy.

>>19971527
>the weebs who give something as simultaneously pretentious and campy
a chance

>>19971451
>>19971504
SubaHibi's deeper themes are all a comment on otaku culture and the otaku experience. I don't even need to mention the dichotomy presented in the work, but come on. There's a reason the entire plot itself is a pastiche of inspirations ranging from Lucky Star, Sayonara wo Oshiete and Oretachi Ni Tsubasa wa Nai, passes through numerous philosophical works barely explored and crescendos in self-reference with Tsui no Sora, another of the author's works.

>>19971483
>The build up with the three commanders wasn't as good
That I can agree on. IIRC in Marie we had Kei VS Eleonore (which was a fantastic fight) and Shirou picking up the slack compared to Rea where he cuts through all of them himself. But I think I see what you mean. The battle in Marie does feel more exciting because it doesn't rapidly descend into chuuni nonsense like Mercurius and his new-israeli-shekel style gibberish and it does have more novelty since we get to see Reinhard give his all for the first time.
>he music choice for the final fight was ehh
Can't argue with that either. Snek's theme is really weak when compared to the pure hype that is every other main character theme. Fucking Wilhelm gets a cooler song. Speaking of Wilhelm, did you read IkaBey?

>>19968426
>Do y'all niggas enjoy shit written by pompous old white people?!
And you enjoy shit written by picrel, how is this any better?

>>19971535
>SubaHibi's deeper themes are all a comment on otaku culture and the otaku experience. I don't even need to mention the dichotomy presented in the work, but come on. There's a reason the entire plot itself is a pastiche of inspirations ranging from Lucky Star, Sayonara wo Oshiete and Oretachi Ni Tsubasa wa Nai,
The only reason the 'deeper' theme of being a commentary on autistic otakus obsessed with 2D to the point of insanity hasn't been mentioned is because we are on /lit/, lol. You are correct though.
>Tsui no Sora
Is it any good? I was told it wasn't worth it because SubaHibi is a similar story except the writer got way better.

>>19971541
>Speaking of Wilhelm, did you read IkaBey?
I didn't. I read acta est fabula in too short of a space of time and burnt myself out on chuuni bullshit. Is it worth the read?

>>19971535
I think it's a bit broader than that. An exploration of a particular kind of fractured, incoherent state of being, such as can be found in an individual that escapes from the existential dread of its encounters with the "real" world - which more often than not are experienced as catastrophes, purely meaningless and disorienting, into shameless indulgence in mass media consumer culture on one hand and high-minded philosophizing on the other. The key being that this is an individual that's afraid of living, and searches about desperately for surrogates for "risking itself by going out there and making choices" that are passive and risk-free.

>>19971597
Absolutely. It's a prequel but really it's self contained. It's kinetic and quite short. The art is vastly improved. The new music is excellent. The story is quite good I think though for better or worse it's mostly about Wilhelm. Unless for whatever reason you find him absolutely repellant you should read it.

>>19971584
Tsui no Sora got a remake. That in itself does have some slight meta commentary in contrast to the original (seeing as it's largely rewritten), but it's a sister story to SubaHibi, so if you enjoyed one you should definitely read the other.
>>19971604
The wonderful thing about the human experience is that it's universal in spirit, I suppose. Though there's even an allusion to Cross Channel in the script acknowledging that this is not some revolutionary new ground this peculiar work found itself first treading (and totally means the writer is literally me and (You)).

>>19968426
Are visual novel-esque videos a thing? I feel as if I wrote a novel and accompanied it with some light visuals and narration it would get much further in the age of zoomers.

Visual novels appear as even more of a labyrinth than light novels to me. I’m computer illiterate so there’s that, but also, many of them seem totally untranslated into English. They demand a pretty enormous time investment. And you can’t tell which will be good and which will just be weird and immature edgy stuff. I’m interested, but that’s overwhelming when I can just buy books.

>>19971646
>(and totally means the writer is literally me and (You))
If you're saying that I'm just more or less talking about myself while the text is really more narrow in its aims, I think that's making the same mistake people who read Dostoyevsky strictly as a Christian apologetic make. I'm not arguing death of the author here, intentions matter, but when authors try and sum up their projects abstractly they often don't do themselves justice - they're not philosophers, they're not abstract thinkers, primarily, their strength is in laying out their ideas narratively, embodying them in characters situated in a world and playing them out - and in consequence, you actually have to try and make sense of what an author is doing in a given text for yourself, rather than taking their word for it. And I don't think Subahibi resolves neatly into "commentary on otaku culture" any more than Brothers Karamazov resolves into "christian apologetics".

>>19968426
A picture says a thousand words...

>>19969395
not that one
>muh hegel reference
>muh unironic literal dog fucking scenes

>>19971681
That quote was just a slight joke aimed at the fact SubaHibi comes from an otaku well-versed in eroge culture of the 2000s sharing his experiences through a cultural pastiche of a narrative that while does have a lot to say on numerous aspects of the human experience, ultimately feels like an interpersonal conversation with an audience that will, hopefully, both catch onto these references and most importantly share at least some of the author's views and struggles. It's a commentary on life by a loser otaku turned (somewhat failed) writer using smut as a way to channel his numerous reflections with like-minded individuals. And it's definitely not something as narrow as I'm alluding to with this paragraph, but that's the best way I can describe it while remaining as brief on the subject as humanly possible.

I still think R07 is pretty cool, even after I've otherwise moved on from weebshit.
Phase 2 never

>>19971206
>>19970656
Muv Luv is the greatest visual novel ever made. However, it was explicitly written for eroge fans. If you're some pseud plotge faggot who is too "intellectual" to debase yourself reading eroge, and are unfamiliar with the genre and its conventions, you will never be able to appreciate it.

>>19971675
https://vndb.org/
This website is an easy way to find stuff. Start with the highly rated ones and read the descriptions..

>>19971713
Dog fucking scenes are the highest form of literature.

>>19971748
A lot of assumptions in there, you're not doing muv-luv any favours. Three of the VNs I mentioned in that post have h-scenes so I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.

>>19971823
None of those are conventional eroge. You're a plotge fag that has never read any sort of bread and butter eroge so you don't even understand the point being made.

>>19971477
My man

>>19969607
super mario brother 3

>>19971855
Where are you getting these assumptions from? It quite clearly says 'general recommendations' in that post because we are on fucking /lit/. I've read 'conventional' eroge before and am more than aware of their place in the medium. Calm yourself and make a case for why muv-luv is good instead of shitting your pants and assuming people know nothing about muh traditional dating sim. There was good discussion about what people like and dislike Subahibi earlier but instead of following that example and creating good muv-luv discourse you come and shit everything up by assuming that people don't know anything.

bern is my cat

>>19969395
danganronpa

>>19969395
SCAJI
>references to the Bible, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, Hume, Kant, probably more
He is /lit/ deny it all you want

>>19971918
>Where are you getting these assumptions from?
From your post, you buffoon. You're an insecure little faggot and feel the need to have your hobbies validated by your peers, which is why you immediately jumped to denigrating Muv Luv, instead of simply recommending the stuff you recommended. He already said he didn't enjoy Muv Luv, so what purpose is there in you going on a diatribe about it being overrated shit? Well, obviously you're trying to appeal to his sensibilities because you desperately want more people to see visual novels as a "serious" medium. "Oh no bro, nevermind that Alternative is literally the highest rated visual novel on VNDB and has been consistently acclaimed for over a decade, it's dogshit, the genre has so much more to offer!"
>assuming that people don't know anything
It's a safe assumption you're probably lying given the disingenuous and obsequious nature you've displayed and how everything you recommended was overrated plotge drivel. And the guy you originally responded to blatantly said Muv Luv was his only experience with the genre.

As for the rest of your post, I really don't give a shit if you think Muv Luv is good or not. I'm not here to create good "discourse", I saw some stupid shit I disagreed with being said, so I challenged it. It's fucking hilarious to me that you're so offended by the statement I made. It wasn't even made in reference to your post so much as it was in reference to the guy who referred to Extra and Unlimited, which are integral to the experience, as a slog. You seem to hate the idea of visual novels being intrinsically linked with otaku culture and desperately want them to be viewed as a more "legitimate" medium, and yet at the same time you feel personally attacked when I suggest that Muv Luv was not written with people like you in mind as its audience.
And you're going to spend your response to this post trying to paint me as a lunatic, but you brought this on yourself. I made my point, here >>19971748, and would have been more than happy to leave it at that. But you got assblasted and couldn't take it lying down.

>>19972238
>You're an insecure little faggot and feel the need to have your hobbies validated by your peers
4chan may be your peers but they're not mine. I called your favourite visual novel meh/overhyped and I got the holy bible of why im a faggot in return.Pure projection calling me insecure.
>Well, obviously you're trying to appeal to his sensibilities because you desperately want more people to see visual novels as a "serious" medium
Your assumptions are all wrong and you're a fucking faggot.
>I saw some stupid shit I disagreed with being said, so I challenged it
You challenged it with worthless garbage.
>You seem to hate the idea of visual novels being intrinsically linked with otaku culture and desperately want them to be viewed as a more "legitimate" medium
Why is everything 'seem' with you? This is getting to ridiculous levels of idiocy. No, I don't care for that and talked about it here >>19971584.
>And you're going to spend your response to this post trying to paint me as a lunatic
You're doing that to yourself. Stop making strawman bullshit. You didn't earn that BTFO moment at the end of your post like you seem to think you did and you're a gigantic faggot that will never be taken seriously.

>>19971477
What do you mean? That it has extensive sex scenes?

>>19972405
Have you read it?

>>19972336
>4chan may be your peers but they're not mine.
lmfao, and yet you're the only one trying to proselytize anyone, you fucking fruit. Do you have zero self-awareness? That's rhetorical, it's pretty clear you don't.
>I got the holy bible of why im a faggot in return. Pure projection calling me insecure.
Because you were practically begging for it. If I gave you that shit on my first reply, you could throw that at me, but it wasn't the first. It was the third, because like I said, you couldn't take my suggestion that you're not the intended audience of a particular well-regarded work lying down. Even though you seem to have nothing but contempt for said audience, which you just reinforced with you suggesting that no one here are your peers. And you're very clearly insecure or you wouldn't have been set off like this.
>You challenged it with worthless garbage.
So why even entertain it? Honestly, the only reason I even linked your post in my reply was because it felt awkward making that post directed only toward the guy replying to you when he said he actually enjoyed Muv Luv. Which is why it's so funny that it set you off so hard, it was only ever tangentially directed at you.
>you're a gigantic faggot that will never be taken seriously
I don't care. I know that's a completely alien concept to you, since being "taken seriously" is clearly very, very important to you.

>>19972421
No, might read it

>>19969395

I genuinely, unironically, sincerely believe that Umineko is one of the best pieces of fiction ever written.

>>19972532
Moogy doesn't like it

>>19972552

Fuck moogy idk who that nigga is he doesn't have the love needed to see the truth

>>19972552
Ryuukishi is a hack who has no idea how to actually tell a story that does anything except continually bait the reader with red herrings and empty promises of greater themes. He's been like this since Higurashi and will never improve, either on a technical level or as a storyteller in general. Almost no Japanese fan cares about Ryuukishi nowadays, and it's more than people just being pissed off about episode 8 of Umineko (people were pissed off about Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi long before then, anyway). It's because they've had enough exposure to him to see through his tricks and stop falling for his brand of spectacle and sophistry. And yes, his terrible, childish text is part of the problem too - there are parts of Higurashi that have such embarrassingly poor writing that they're used as copypasta on 2ch. I don't know how the western fanbase continues to put up with Ryuukishi, and I honestly feel that it's damaging to the community as a whole to continue to obsess this much over a single work so long after the fact. The amount of Umineko discussion is one of the reasons people who read untranslated eroge feel so disconnected from the broader western fanbase, and it's not hard to see how stifling this level of obsession can be if you take a step back. This applies to other games as well (Fate and Majikoi, for example) and I suppose to a degree it comes part and parcel with the reality that you guys are exposed to such a tiny slice of what's out there, but when the game in question is something as obviously and majorly flawed as Umineko, I can't help but feel a sense of unease, I guess you could say.

>>19972580
I got halfway through before I realized this is a copypasta. I'm almost positive I've seen this before

>>19972580
based pasta
It will never not be funny to me how Baldr Sky and Muramasa both finally got translated and had all the potency of a wet fart. They both got hyped up by JOPs as kamige for so long and finally got western releases with zero aplomb and zero interest. I still haven't gotten around to reading them personally (because i keep forgetting they're translated lmao, no one ever talks about them any more), I'm sure they're alright but it's clear they're not the kamige people pretended they were. What's the new so-called "kamige" all the JOPs pretend is God's gift to the universe these days?

>>19972503
WA2 has a few sex scenes, but they aren't crucial to the plot. The censored version removes them.

It's a story about intense passion - love - and the wide range of highs and lows it can bring to the people afflicted. As such, it is also a very passionate and dramatic story, and that might put some people off. Some characters bear a lot of self-hatred and flagellate themselves mentally. Emotional torment is a constant throughout the series. But beneath all the misery is an ultimately touching, if also heartwrenching, tale about True Love.

>>19972405
It does, but that's not what I'm thinking about. I'm not sure how much you know about the story but it's a love triangle and most of the story is about the MC trying to do right by the girl(s) he messes with and failing. The author likes to focus on highs and lows (mostly lows) of the relationships in the story and the way he goes about it is about as subtle and artful as a punch to the face. I sometimes felt almost embarrased as if I'm reading something I'm not supposed to see. Like a voyeur. I also found myself getting the same kicks out out of the VN that I'd get out of an NTR doujin. And I don't think I'm alone because pic relate (the famous airport scene) gets meme'd to hell. I'm not sure if what I'm saying makes sense. At any rate, that's just how I feel about it. And I don't mean to discourage you from reading if you haven't because it's a very fun VN.

You guys will trash Dune for being genre fiction trash while having threads like this one.

>>19973001
I don't trash anything. I just like reading things. That aside, I think Dune attracts the ire of the trashing types because people like to use Dune as an example of a "smart" or "intellectual" sci-fi and use words like "classic" to describe it. The trashing types can dismiss VNs as "weebshit" and no one is going to argue, and that's just no fun.

>>19972618
And Subahibi was awful too lol. It's all just proof of Japan's (and JOPs') shit taste. They hated Episode 8 of Umineko -- a nigh-perfect ending -- because... what? It hurt their feelings?

>>19971224
Ah... okay. Maybe what I want doesn't exist, but your response will do. I'll have to go train (or strain) my brain daily to visualize things properly so I can have a Phenomenology of Spirit visual novel happening inside my head.

>I'd love to do an even deeper dive into the medium but they're all so fucking long that it's hard to pick.
Same, brother.

>>19968426
vns are fine but there comes a point when you graduate to unhinged rpgmaker outsider art

>>19972436
Muv luv is an unreadable trash for retards, i bet you enjoyed those alien ntr scenes little cuck faggot.

>>19968426
Why do visual novels, as a market, only seem to exist in Japan? Are Americans just too dumb and only want to run around shooting stuff?

>>19970738
Alan Moore is overrated, but they’re two totally different mediums in my opinion. You can compare graphic novels and manga, but not graphic manga novels and visual novels.

>>19970656
>Saya no Uta: It's about 5 hours long so go with this one first if you don't mind cunny. Great lovecraftian stuff.
It raises some fascinating questions about how our morality is largely defined by our sensual perception of things, but it's also blatant fanservice for loser incels. I would respect it more if we got to see Fuminori's sex with Saya from an outsider's perspective. We always see it from Fuminori's POV, where Saya is a cute teenage girl the loser incel reader will lust over - but imagine if we saw the same sex scene from a normal human's perspective where Fuminori is covered by tendrils and tentacles all while sticking it into a screeching writing pile of flesh. That would really drive home the point about moral relativity the novel is trying to make. But instead it's blatantly based in favor of loser incels because they know those are its target audience.

Honestly, it's stuff like this that ruins visual novels for me. There always HAS to be retarded fetish fanservice for coombrains, noooo, you can't make a work where sex scenes have artistic value or meaning, or aren't even present in the first place. You HAVE to cater to the lonely hikkikomoris claiming your novels to be high art, but the moment you make anime girl tiddys slightly smaller they won't buy your shit.

I’ve always been interested in both light novels and visual novels because I saw them as a middle ground between novels and manga or anime, but every time I’ve actually picked one up I’ve been so disappointed.

>>19971110
Tsukihime has great atmosphere and some interesting things in its story but it's also inherently fucking stupid
>if you stop the rape at halfway point you may get a good ending
>if you do the whole rape then you get a bad ending
Also why the fuck do I even have to sit through the halfway rape scene instead of just skipping it all? I picked this up as a hopefully interesting supernatural story, not a rape power fantasy.

>>19973377
It's slowly getting better but it's hard to find the market for this kind of things. You have to target people who are sophisticated enough to not be deterred by large volumes of text, but also low-brow enough to still be playing video games as adults. The end product is usually something that would be panned by both /lit/ and /v/. By /lit/, for not being sophisticated enough, by /v/, for not being low-brow enough. Your best bet is probably the progressive gender studies pro-communist video game journalist types who are at least interested in experiments with the medium, but they're also looking for very specific liberal themes in a story and if you don't have a huge focus on them you might get ignored or even get a bad rep.

>>19973445
You clearly didn't finish reading it or you're fucking braindead.
Also being so puritanical and going "ewww sex icky" in a story that revolves around a schizophrenic murderer is fucking laughable. Sex happens, maybe not to you, but that's no reason for it to be off limits in fiction.
It would be one thing if you were bemoaning the Len scenes or the route end scenes that are largely arbitrary, but you're bitching about one of the few sex scenes that actually has role/function/purpose in the story.

>>19972631
literally nothing touching about this dumb bitch falling in love with a substitute mommy and the school idol with a """traumatic""" past saving her virginity for the main guy. one of the worst anime I've watched to completion. 'Sex with protagonist only' says it all really. It's understandable with stories like Romeo and Juliet but this zero-awareness love story is just in love with itself

>>19973377
you know how they say 90% of a medium is garbage? VNs are 99.99% garbage.

>>19973479
I admittedly have only finished the Arcueid route and haven't gotten to the rest of it yet. But my complaint is not the sex stuff, it's how gratuitous, pointless and self-indulgent it is. Go on, do tell me, what purpose does it have aside from being blatant coomer fanservice that breaks the narrative but it doesn't matter because pandering to the incel reader comes before all else?

>>19973507
>Go on, do tell me, what purpose does it have aside from being blatant coomer fanservice that breaks the narrative but it doesn't matter because pandering to the incel reader comes before all else?
Do you really want me to tell you, because it's a massive spoiler. If you're not retarded, you'll understand what the point of that scene was later. It's not something mind-blowing or deep or anything but it's simply foreshadowing shit that has yet to be revealed.

>>19973393
>but imagine if we saw the same sex scene from a normal human's perspective where Fuminori is covered by tendrils and tentacles all while sticking it into a screeching writing pile of flesh
The incomprehensible horror from beyond the stars isn't so incomprehensible when it's got CGs.

That aside, Saya no Uta is fundamentally a love story about two lonely people finding solance in each other. If you choose to see it as a gross fantasy for losers then that's what it is. It really doesn't matter if we get to see Saya as a monster.

>>19973490
>Sex with protagonist only' says it all really.
Kazusa fucks one of her mom's squeezes. And Setsuna doesn't do anything out of guilt. Not because she's so in love that she can't move on.

>>19973584
>The incomprehensible horror from beyond the stars isn't so incomprehensible when it's got CGs.
You don't have to show the entirety of Saya, but don't act like VN doesn't already have scenes where we see parts of her or where parts of her are described.
>It really doesn't matter if we get to see Saya as a monster.
It does if it insists on showing different POVs in different routes. Only getting to see the beautiful part of Saya intimately betrays its bias.

>>19973658
>Only getting to see the beautiful part of Saya intimately betrays its bias.
We see her eat human flesh, murder 2 people, mutilate one in a cruel fashion (which is apparent to the mc), and experiment on another in a way that leads to 3 deaths. We already see the ugly side of her. Just not literally.

>>19973723
The scene where she mutilates the girl lusting over Fuminori and makes her their sex slave is blatantly supposed to be arousing, not horrifying. There was a quick and easy way to make it horrifying, which I already pointed out.

>>19973393
>blatant fanservice for loser incels
Obviously, because only those people read visual novels. They're the target audience for all of them, the whole medium exists for their sake. What's so surprising about this.

>>19973807
>is blatantly supposed to be arousing, not horrifying
Anon...

>>19973836
He's right and you know it. Stop being so pretentious about a porngame just because it has a slightly above average narrative.

>>19973590
Thought she was lying. Whatever, fuck that bitch, hope she dies in the snow

>>19973843
There was a fair amount of smut in that game but that scene was not one of them. And what exactly am I being pretentious about?

>>19973272
>vns are fine but there comes a point when you graduate to unhinged rpgmaker outsider art

Redpill me on rpgmaker outsider art, what are some games you would recommend?

>>19971672
>Are visual novel-esque videos a thing?

Yeah, they're called greentext channels.
https://youtu.be/BqBS3AyFPCY

>>19973830
The fact that a medium ripe with storytelling opportunities has to be limited to this.

>>19973836
>>19973873
Don't make me look up the CG anon. It was blatantly framed as something sexy, with booba and everything. Again, there was an obvious way to make it non-sexy that they deliberately didn't go with.

>>19974097
>The fact that a medium ripe with storytelling opportunities has to be limited to this

That's how I feel too
https://youtu.be/_BKoKMWOFrM

>>19974148
Very based plug anon, I will subscribe to your channel if you keep releasing new shit

>>19968426
Light novels do

>>19974382
Recently I was working on a script about occult symbolism in Revolutionary Girl Utena. Something that I was actually first tipped onto by an anon here (picrelated). There is real truth to his claims, and it opens up deeper layers of understanding that most of its fandom are either ignorant to, or indifferent to.

I only do these videos when there is a topic that I feel obsessed with enough that it justifies the effort. So truth be told, while I do want to upload again it might be a while.

>>19968426
/co/
should be part of any patrician's reading diet

>>19973393
shut the fuck up retard

>>19968426
Reading visual novels made me realize that a page in a book is just an arbitrary organization of text. Why all these sentences on one page when I only need to see the sentence I'm currently reading? The reason all the other sentences are printed on the page is only for the purpose of compression. This becomes obsolete when dealing with digital information storage. I find a textbox or NVL style with a good backlog more comfortable for reading than the traditional book format.

>>19974595
NVL is the superior format for any vn-fag with literary ambitions, since it allows for deliberate use of page-breaks to help carry the rhythm and flow of a text, but there's also something to be said about the minimalistic simplicity of displaying one sentence at a time, particularly if you're writing something laid-back and intended for easy reading, i.e. your standard slice of life comedy romance or pop-scifi genre fiction.

>>19973377
The way the Japanese industry is structured is unique because of the otaku culture there.
Even in Japan the visual novel business operates on razor thin margins, making a studio elsewhere would be stupid because there aren’t enough weebs in any single country to make it profitable.
There is barely any market for this shit, even in Japan, let alone elsewhere.

>>19973393
>but the moment you make anime girl tiddys slightly smaller they won't buy your shit.
I agree with the rest of your post, but

>>19968426
>bromance of the 3 kingdoms
Pompous old white peepul

Would you say VNs are the bastard child of novels and anime or novels and video games?

>>19974595
>>19974629
What's NVL?
t. caveman

>>19974796
NVL = novel mode, it's when the text is displayed like picrelated instead of as a textbox

>>19974796
https://vndb.org/g43

>>19973879
Yume Nikki is the classic example, but the pic is from one of the Towelket games.

>>19974796
To add to that, the other (and more common) way of displaying text is ADV where the textbox is small and at the bottom of the screen.

>>19974740
they're a fusion of the novel, those super-early choose your own adventure computer games and the anime aesthetic.

How many creators tend to work on a light novel at one time? Are they all written, illustrated, and programmed by a single person?

>>19974962
There’s usually a while team behind them.
But even then, they literally hire the bottom of the barrel to do illustrations.
Look at all the pictures posted in this thread, would you consider even one of them good?
They’re all badly drawn, these people didn’t even graduate from arts school, they dropped out.

I enjoy visual novels like Ever 17/Remember 11, Steins;Gate, Root Double, even Ace Attorney, 999, Hotel Dusk, etc. and I think the medium does have untapped potential, but I agree with the other posters that the over the top anime writing, artstyles, and coomer fapbait really drags down the overall merit of the art form. Just downloaded Subahibi yesterday because of the recommendations and the beginning is difficult to get through. Real people do not talk, think, or act like this, it's very cringe and off-putting, and the generic slice of life anime nonsense goes on hours longer than necessary. I'm sure it gets better later, but I just wish the writing was more mature.

>>19974975
Good enough actually. I don’t believe that illustrations need to be very technically impressive to be effective. Of course I say that having not really been a reader to this point and thus having not much reference in mind.

>>19974962
It varies but it's very rarely a single person. Even ryukishi07 who is known for doing stuff by himself had someone help him with the programming.

>>19975003
>remember11
I read ever17 and started this but got demotivated when I heard you had to infer a lot of shit from the endings/tips and that it feels incomplete. Not sure how true that is though, the opening was fucking awesome to the point where I'm tempted to pick it up again.
> Just downloaded Subahibi yesterday because of the recommendations and the beginning is difficult to get through. Real people do not talk, think, or act like this, it's very cringe and off-putting, and the generic slice of life anime nonsense goes on hours longer than necessary.
Might be best to drop it then, I thought the pacing of the earlier part of the game was relatively good for the medium and the character archetypes were overplayed to the point of it being so ridiculous that it's fun. The end of the first chapter is pure schizo shit so maybe read till then and if it still doesn't grab your interest just drop it. From the VNs you listed the denpa atmosphere seems to be very to your taste but maybe not the narrative itself, it's very rooted in otaku culture before anything psychological or philosophical as >>19971535
mentions.

The stuff I've read:

Saya No Uta - cool atmospheric horror/love story with some interesting themes that utilizes the medium to allow for different points of view on the same events, but too much degenerate fanservice.
DDLC - I have no respect for datesims, I fell for the meme and thought it would be an epic deconstruction of them. It's not, it's baby's first attempt at comprehending what deconstruction even is, all while barely having a story in the first place. Whenever I see people praise it as a smart game to shut the fuck up. Although I will say, I liked how different girls' styles of poetry were used to give them individual characterization, I wish that gimmick was part of a better story.
Clannad - I played this one to wash the taste of DDLC off of my mouth as I've heard it's a more profound story than just your typical datesim. Not all its roots are created equal, some blatantly had more thought and effort put into them than others, but as a whole, it was fairly compelling and even really mature at times. I respect it for having no degenerate fanservice, and for having a brief sex scene that's NOT just meant to make you horny. I hate the casual cruelty towards the best friend character, though.
Danganronpa - very kitchy, very pulpy, very entertaining, I enjoy it for what it is. Although there is a lot of ridiculous behavior involved in most parts of the story that you just have to accept. At least it doesn't try to pretend to be something it's not.
Kanon - tried reading this one after Clannad since it was from the same studio. Solidified my hatred for datesims. I've heard it introduces supernatural elements at some point but I couldn't get to it, I dropped it after meeting the amnesiac girl. The admittedly cozy atmosphere felt hollow when there was so little story or character. It's all so monotonous, so dull, nothing but protagonist walking the streets, thinking about how lonely he is and bumping into different boring archetypal girls none of which are fun to interact with.
You and Me and Her - I just tried this one because I heard it was a better DDLC. Well, it wasn't a deconstruction either, but it was a bit smarter and not as retardedly blunt with its occasional commentary. But aside from that, pretty tepid and dull, barely had the strength to finish it.

Any anons got recommendations for me based on these opinions?

>>19976031
Try actually reading some entry-level titles.

Why yes, I do read 60 hour long vns about school children having sex. How could you tell?

Music and prose is a great combination. The most memorable parts of VNs to me are the music and the scenes they played on.

>>19976031
since we are on /lit/, what books do you like? that would be a better indicator of what vns you might enjoy.

>>19976031
you don't want dating sims and slice of life (moege) but you keep reading them lol. seemed to like Danganronpa well enough, try another one of the great Mysteries (or plotge), it's what they do well. I can personally strongly recommend Raging Loop >>19970987

https://files.catbox.moe/143by7.png
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/visual-novels-general/images/3/30/Rec_Chart_2017.png/revision/latest?cb=20210114131535

bumpty

>>19971713
>sceneS
the 5 second PTSD flash of that nerd bitch getting fucked by the dog isnt even a top 3 fucked up thing in that game, nor is it close to any actual problems it has as /lit/. youre retarded and havent read it

>>19978608
>isnt even a top 3 fucked up thing in that game
probably speaks more to your own warped mind and priorities
i don't think any topic should ever be verboten but bestiality is just one of those things that almost universally only exists in a story for shock value or because the author is not-so-subtlely shoving his shitty fetish down your throat. usually some mixture of both.
>havent read it
and i never will. the mere existence of that scene tells me everything i need to know, and that it's not worth my time. it's not like anything about subahibi is particularly appealing to begin with. everything i've seen/heard about it, and especially the people who extol it (this thread is a goldmine), is incredibly off-putting. the dog-fucking is just the red flag firmly planted on top of it all.

>>19976521
sounds like you belong on /mu/

>>19972065
>references is all it takes for something to be a great literary work
im sorry anon

aa final bump