/lit/ - Literature

I am literally a Monarchist.

It will give way. Today's corporate backed counterculture will inevitably birth its antithesis counterculture tomorrow. Its already happening. I've also noticed a lot of people online will simply say progressive sounding things but privately with closer friends they express counter views, even if its just simply because they are fed up hearing and regurgitating the same horseshit. This will eventually boil over into more vocal opposition. A lot of people simply put up with, or mime the same phrases as, the real nutjobs who are taken hook line and sinker by all of this but trust me when the chips are starting to go down the provocation will ignite something. Maybe not something as drastic as a civil war like a lot of people theorize but some sort of counter position.

>>19954986
>For the time being, we are in a degenerate purgatory
Hardly, have hope, decades go by without anything happening but mere seconds can result in decades of work being trampled and destroyed. Much of this progress has already happened in the sphere of politics and against the cultural disrupters.

Trump's was one of those signs, his most important achievement was just being Trump and getting elected, as far as I know /pol/ people don't give a fuck about his actual "achievements" since he was mostly cucked by neocons and the Jewish lobby. But the significance of his election, its sheer unexpectedness and how the technocratic oligarchy, "new elite," managerial class, "Davocracy" (etc.) reacted to it, by flailing absolutely pathetically, is so powerful as to outweigh all the neocon and shabbos goy shit he did.

Trump himself doesn't matter obviously, what matters is that he proved Samuel Francis right by running on a Middle American Radicals (MARs) ticket and winning, and that the elite was forced to show its full hand and prove that it has no way of dealing with this. Trump was basically Pat Buchanan's movement (which Buchanan never had), but without Buchanan at the head of it, while Buchanan's actual run for president was the opposite. Trump proved Buchanan and Francis right.

The worst thing that ever could have happened was Trump beating Biden. It would have vented all the potential energy into that meaningless neo-Reagan shit and we would have gotten another 1990s political theatre episode, delaying the rupture of American society long enough for the elites to keep doing whatever it is they are doing (wealth transfer, degrading and demoralising people's minds and souls, moving to safer areas while letting the heartlands rot etc.).

The best thing that could have happened did happen: Biden won, using typical Democrat gerrymandering and sleaze that was widely perceived as a final slap in the face from the oligarchy to the MAR constituency, the crony oligarch media completely discredited itself to degrees that even I would never have dared hope for, and all the fairweather friends of liberty, millions of ivory tower academic dickheads and glorified pundits like Chomsky, who normally have a centripetal (i.e. status quo maintaining) effect on politics were whipped up into histrionic frenzy and severed from the MARs as credible thought leaders.

I'm ambivalent about Trump running, if there were any better candidate I'd hope he doesn't, but then there isn't one yet. On the one hand, Trump will probably cuck to neocons again and do nothing, while dissipating and wasting the energy. This will set the country up for another astroturf Obama minority grievance candidate 4 years later, threatening to restart the Eternal 1990-2000s again. But on the other hand, the sheer ineptitude of the oligarchy and their media and "public intellectual" lackeys indicates to me that they will just go more insane this time.

>>19955118
I know both our experiences on this are anecdotal but I've seen the opposite. Many people I know have pledge complete loyalty to progressivism. People I've known for years have really surprised me with how deeply they are convinced by wokist doctrine about power, privilege, transphobia, racial supremacists and capitalism.
My take on the thread's topic is that liberalism is ending and will be replaced by castes and feudal empires run by corporate entities. This has already happened to an extent with lobbying, bribery and other corrupting influences be they legal or not but sooner or later the middleman is going to be removed.

>>19954986
>politically progressive
>liberalism
You are part of the problem

>>19955932
what is this even supposed to mean retard

>>19954986
>ISIS is liberal
>militant salafis are liberal

>>19954986
It does not matter what direction the peasants are moving in their political opinions, they are still peasants.

>>19954986
People like having freedom and democracy.
Liberalism isn’t delivering on either.

>>19956020
Yes

Not really true. Economically yes the world is still liberal, but more and more people are getting into collectivist ideas because the neo-liberal promise of individual pursuit of happiness is not working for them. Fascism, nationalism and socialism are becoming more popular again, communism not so much because gulag uyghur no food yadda yadda.
Remember that will smith movie? Yeah, people have (finally) come to realize that its message was bullshit. What you're seeing is the neo-liberal system being tested in both western as well as non-western countries. Who fucking knows what's gonna happen next, but to me it's pretty obvious that the core ideas of liberalism are not convincing for a significant and growing amount of people.

Apparently you didn't read the book lol. The thesis of the book is that liberalism failed precisely because it succeeded getting the society it wanted, namely a society where people are as freed from arbitrary coercion as practically possible(both governmental and social), and the consequences of achieving this clearly haven't been as good as liberals claim; it's true that we are wealthier than we were 200 years ago, but at what cost? There's endless crime, social unrest, chronic marriage failure, skyrocketing suicide rates, people barely have any interpersonal relationships(the amount of close friends people report to have have dropped by 2 down to 1 since Bowling Alone was written by Putnam over 20 years ago), and people just consume porn and only relate to each other through fake social media accounts.

Anyone who observed this from the outside with a critical eye would arguably say they were seeing the collapse of a civilization in slow motion.

>>19956008
Progressives aren't liberals, and the fact that people have conflated the two is a huge reason why actual sane liberalism has gone out the window in favor of nanny state/progressivism vs. conservatism/libertarianism. The fact that you are unable to differentiate the two even when explicitly talking about liberalism rather than using it as a cliche and incorrect political label is dowright moronic.

>>19956119
That’s where I think Deneen is wrong though. People think that just because we aren’t experiencing genuine equality or freedom in the 21st century it’s evidence that Liberalism is dying, but as long as the masses continue to believe in those ideals, then Liberalism will survive. That’s how it works. You’re not supposed to consider an alternative to those values even if you never witness them materializing. If the liberal system fails then the solution is always just to reinforce those exact same values. Consequently, all sides of the spectrum today are insisting that the solutions to our problems is to have more freedom, more equality and more Liberalism. You can see this with the right-wing trucker shit in Canada right now where they’re whining that Trudeau is violating their rights and liberties.

None of these ideals mean anything in the first place, they are deliberately created with the intention of keeping the masses placated while the power elite that runs the world continues to rape everything with impunity. Deneen is correct that everything about Liberalism is paradoxical nonsense that inevitably produces a technocratic police state that devours the world, but people are wrong in saying that this is a betrayal of liberalism. A technocratic hellscape of government control and degeneracy IS Liberalism in its purest form, and no one is working to dismantle its basic premises.

>>19956133
Anon, both are liberals, they are both fanatical about the liberty of the individual, they just disagree on method, but not on principle. Conservative liberals want the market to solve everything but progressives want to use the state as a tool.

Face it anon, making abortion legal, or having free federal college loans makes the individual more free. In fact, in this way, progressives are actually more fanatical about freedom than conservatives.

>>19956119
True except for the endless crime bit. Liberal societies have less crime than anywhere else, an unprecedented low level of crime in human history

>>19956144
Well you need to differentiate two things here. The first is what liberalism is itself based on philosophically and the second is how liberals actually act when in power.

The fact is that Deneen does a pretty good job of showing that liberalism is flawed at the conceptual level and he also gives a fairly good assessment of how liberal ideas in practice doesn't produce the results that liberals themselves claim it will.

>>19956149
>free federal college loans
Artificially drive up college prices and make it near impossible to default on debt. A genuinely terrible policy that no actual liberal would support, it's turned into a massive racket.

>>19956172
We have it in Australia… Seems to work ok

>>19956164
I don't agree with that at all. I actually think crime is a very uniquely strong feature of liberal capitalist states. The inequality that liberal capitalism produces practically necessitates that you have a roving band of lumpenproles who make a living entirely off of a black market.

In a traditional society, anyone who didn't work simply died of starvation.

>>19956172
If you have a fanatical belief in making individuals less dependent on other individuals, it just makes sense that the government has to do things like that anon. The alternative is basically the Amish, where you are both subject to the whims of, and occasionally get the help of the community when you need help. But that means you aren't an individual. You are part of a group and dependent on that group regardless if you want to or not.

>>19956164
I can very much disagree with that, have you ever met people who receive subsidize housing? They practically give up all ambitions to get a real career entirely live, until they die of either a shoot out or drug overdose, inside the sphere of government bennies for as long has they can.

>>19956187
I don’t know what you mean by traditional society since thieves and brigands and pirates were omnipresent in both antiquity and the Middle Ages and a perennial source of trouble. Why would they die of starvation? The whole point of crime is that it pays. You are probably correct to some degree about the creation of a criminal class with the advent of industrialisation, but statistically, after the crime boom of the mid-20th century, crime has declined around the world to an unforeseen level. Less criminality, I think, than any of the gilded ages

>>19956165
My contention is that liberalism in theory is wrong, and liberals never actually care about realizing its values in practice. The people who invented the ideals of freedom and liberty were slave owners. What they care about is keeping people trapped in their individuality, unwilling to organize as a collective and hypnotized by values that never come into material fruition. Even people like Francis Fukuyama openly admit that this is the goal of Liberalism. As long as people enjoy an abundance of consumerism, indulge in their desires and vote in fake elections every couple years, then society will be relatively peaceful. Deneen does a great job of showing these contradictions, I just disagree that people are abandoning these values, because they aren’t. Everyone still believes in the same foundational lies, and that’s all liberalism needs to keep surviving: faith, not practice. It’s a false ideology with arbitrary pillars, we need to stop treating it as a rigid dogma because that’s how liberalism always reinforces itself.

>>19956219
Thieves and brigands have of course always existed, but there really is a difference between something being a software bug and it being a feature.

>>19956212
Subsidised housing isn’t identical with liberalism, since a strong faction of liberals dislikes all sorts of funding for the poor, and illiberal regimes like Bismarckian conservatism, Soviet communism, Imperial Japanese military rule etc. tend to have stronger social support systems.

>>19956227
Well I don't think Deneen ever claimed people were abandoning it, but he does think the project has failed, which means his book is more like a call to arms for trying to find an alternative that doesn't create the same problems.

>>19956239
But then how do we explain the ostensible record low levels of crime? Remember that capitalism, as it currently exists in the West — while it has increased economic inequality and suppressed real wage growth — has nevertheless raised most classes to a moderate level of comfort (hence the waning salience of revolutionary socialist politics). This applies to other Western countries more than it does to America, which seems third world in a lot of ways

>>19956259
Anon, be serious. Do you honestly believe that a medieval city had 17 murders every 24 hours like Chicago does today? I don't think so.

>>19956227
Schmitt makes a similar connection, specifically that Liberalism was suppose to solve the problem of civil wars that plagued monarchist countries by creating another way to safely trade leadership without potentially destroying the country. When you see pathologies within Liberalism that seems to act like a technocratic police state that does everything it can to keep order through a modern Hobbesian state, it’s same the pathological habit of keeping order from the “state of nature”, but what technocrats criminals don’t realize that violence is not bad or good absolutes, but necessary.

>>19956277
But liberal democracy actually does manage to do exactly the thing Schmitt says in that book fairly well, it's just that he believed you couldn't obscure the political forever.

>>19956270
>The historian Laurence Stone calculated that homicide levels in medieval England were at least 10 times what they are today. Certainly, we cannot doubt that it was a dangerous time in which to live. An exceptional case, even by medieval standards, is provided by 14th‑century Oxford. Levels of violence there were considered unacceptably high by contemporaries: in the 1340s, the homicide rate was around 110 per 100,000. (In the UK in 2011, it was 1 per 100,000.)
Keep in mind that I don’t mean to endorse crude stereotypes about medieval life, or to suggest that it is objectively inferior. It just makes sense considering there was no organised police force, more social inequality, more disease, honour culture, etc.

>>19956240
>What is the New Deal

>>19956296
>The historian Laurence Stone calculated

lol. I mean, I'm not trying to be rude but this is just an academic giving an educated guess in the defense of a political regime he likes.

>>19955025
Fag

>>19956309
Laurence Stone was an old fashioned English medievalist, certainly not immune to the charges you make but probably not the sort of thoughtless ideologue to make uncharitable comments about the past just because. Obviously it’s not Gospel truth, but why should we use your conjecture (which has nothing behind it except ‘a feeling’) as the basis for this conversation instead of one based in wide reading in primary sources and statistical analysis? I think the conversation would be more fruitful if you could find different studies and theses on the issue

Definitely dying and dead. Just look at Canada.

>>19956358
Well even if he is correct, I don't think a highwayman who steals a pittance from a farmer in Wales in the year 1434 is comparable to Pablo Escobar for example. Capitalism has really made criminality into an enterprise unto itself.

>>19956290
Wasn’t saying Schmitt thought otherwise, but in my opinion this constant gripping down for the systems own security contradicts it’s preaching of federalism and localism or any form of self sufficiency by becoming a progressive statist contradiction, which all took form in the 60s, it’s not really an ideology but a form of survival. The ‘American experiment' of local self-government and it’s federalism had to be killed in order to enact a new vision of unitary social crowd control directed by a much smaller number of distant elites in D.C, it’s complete machiavellian (keeping the plebs in line). Locke would even rant and onions face over how we must embrace a potentially more degenerate elite of industrial nigger faggots against the private nobles, and his reading of this was that materially, we will all get iPhones and consume product, not even joking. What does this show for us in politics? that we must be replaceable consumers to continue this systems own existence?

>>19956408
Sure but maybe a better point of comparison would be pirates who raped and murdered and sold thousand of people into slavery. That shit happened to Cervantes

>>19956414
I definitely don't disagree with what you're saying here. I just think that Schmitt underestimated how effective liberal technocracy could be at quelling friend-enemy distinctions and turning them into tame competitors or rivals in a market or democratic electoral system.

>>19956424
Touché I guess.

>>19956432
Well liberalism certainly knows when to show the distinctions during important electoral cycles, all to sponge up any potent populist energy into a golden cage of consumerist purgatory.

I think the point here for both of us is that liberalism isn’t much of an ideology in the modern world but more of an anti-depressant against war or even necessary violence to fix corruption. I mean, everyone in American and the whole West thinks anything out of Liberalism is just arbitrary tyranny.

>>19956478
I think liberals are smarter about it now than they were during the Weimar Republic, lets just say. I'm fairly sure they've read Schmitt too, because they know exactly who it's okay to frame as an enemy to divert attention away from themselves.

>>19954986
I think the real reason that Liberalism will fail, is that people are evolving beyond politics.
I personally agree with many tenets of Communism, Fascism, Anarchism, and Capitalism.
If I can agree with all four of these ideologies equally, it shows that ideology is fundamentally flawed, whatever it may be.
Liberalism has not failed, but it is a stage of evolution for humanity. Liberalism has provided us with great material wealth, but no spiritual wealth. The system to succeed liberalism will meet humanities material needs, as well as their spiritual needs for relationships, connections, and other pro-social things.
History has gone from Anarchy, to Feudalism, to Liberal Capitalism, and now will evolve into something akin to Socialism.
The reason Socialism has not worked in the past is because it was trying to make socialism work artificially. Socialism is a natural evolution of things, not a system that you can just create overnight with a dictator ordering people around.

>>19956497
They know about all this shit very clearly, they just have to conceal it for the public (that's all Liberalism is, a system of concealment). Obama actually read Deneen and recommended this book.

Liberalism doesn't need to be gone for it to be a failure.
The whole point of the book is to show how Liberalism has failed to deliver on the ideals of the Enlightenment and Progressive movement

>>19956686
socialism isn't going to happen, its a pipe dream mixed with some weird pseudo Christian savior complex

>>19956038
add prosperity to that equation and you've posted a great truth

>>19956144
that's just the point, though. the cold war bargain with the working class was "give up your political power and we'll guarantee you a higher standard of living" which after the collapse of the soviet union turned into "oops sorry about that declining standard of living" and "no you can't have that political power back". from then on it was "black trans lives matter" and "you vill eat zee bugs"

>most peaceful and prosperous time in human history
>”there are black people in my movies now and I can’t call them nigger anymore, liberalism absolutely failed”

>>19956164
>Liberal societies have less crime than anywhere else, an unprecedented low level of crime in human history
bro the imperial capital of liberalism houses 1/4 of the planet's prisoners

>>19955025
>I am literally a moron.

>>19957202
2/10

>>19955025
I am not opposed to monarchism, I am def for it if its Jesus Christ the Lord reigning, which he will.
With that being said, Liberialism has won. For sure.
This goes along with Paul's words in 2 thes. "There must needs be a falling away first."

>>19957203
prison population doesn't = total amount of crime
retard

>>19957209
you must be if you're shitting on the most stable system known to man

>>19957203
Yeah? The US incarceration rate is disproportionate to the amount of crime there is

>>19956119
The failure of progress has not consisted in the non-fulfillment but in the fulfillment of its promises.

Nicolas Davila

>>19957214
If they didn't commit any crimes why would they be in prison? The number of people who commit crimes and manage to avoid conviction is 20x higher than the rate of erroneous convictions.

>>19954986
Enjoy being steamrolled by Communist China.

>>19957454
You’re not taking into account the length of the sentences

>>19957257
What does that even mean? 100% of criminals should be in prison or killed.

lmao at people saying liberalism no longer exists when we've just been thru the first two years of a pandemic that's left literally millions dead all because of the selfishness of a tiny coddled minority who hide themselves behind liberal buzzwords like freedom and individual rights.

>>19957562
What world are you living in? Upper middle class liberals literally wanted society shut down permanently, there literally hasn't been a worse person in the pandemic than the neurotic lib Karen.

>>19954986
>Virtually every young person raised on social media today is politically progressive.
Young people today are the most disenfranchised slave class in the US since we've had slaves. They are debt-consumer cattle, they have zero influence. Outside of America, in the only place that matters (China) things are radically different. They look upon the liberal experiment in the west as an object lesson and as something to learn from, and to never allow to happen to them.
>>19955189
The president is a figurehead. Whatever vague potential you think is building and was conserved will be squandered in 2024, Trump will run again because he has the republicans by the balls and he could siphon huge amounts of money as president.

>>19957562
>countries with mass vaccination aren't any better off
>countries with no vaccination are better off
>there are extremely hard statistics that prove this
>what they show on CNN is the polar opposite of scientific reality, retards eat it up
>HURR DURR GET THE VAX
You people are actual lunatics.

>>19954986
Progressives aren’t liberal.

>>19956020
ISIS is a CIA operation

>>19956038
>democracy
Democracy is the problem. You can’t have liberalism and democracy since democracy is just mob rule.

>>19957562
>mao at people saying liberalism no longer exists when we've just been thru the first two years of a pandemic that's left literally millions dead all because of the selfishness of a tiny coddled minority who hide themselves behind liberal buzzwords like freedom and individual rights.
Portugal has almost twice the deaths of the US from Covid relative to the population size, they have over 95% total vaccination rate. You are stupid lol!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_drop

NOOOOOOOO WHY IS CRIME GOING DOWN I NEED TO LIVE OUT MY DEATH WISH FANTASIES

>>19958183
The funny thing is the country in the world with the highest vaccination rate is a literal slave state. Somehow the irony is lost on liberals.

>>19958205
violent crime is going up, especially after you account for the worldwide drop following the elimination of widespread lead contamination

>>19958212
>violent crime is going up
during cOVID?

>>19958205
We did it reddit! Crime is over!

>>19957562
Virtually everyone who died would have died anyways, just a few months later from the regular flu or a cold. >>19958205
If you just legalize everything crime will drop to zero

>>19958215
You're right, I forgot those were fiery but peaceful protests.

>>19958224
What do you mean "violent crime is going up"?

>>19958217
Isn't this just because they raised the threshold for criminality and reduced policing? I distinctly remember some kind of racial drama prompting this in New York. It complicated Trump's campaign because his lawyer used to be the governor and was in the KKK or something?

But yeah it goes to show, what matters is how crime is reported, more than the amount reported. Look at how policing has fundamentally changed, before police were proactive, they worked a beat. Now policing is strictly reactive, that completely changes the narrative.

Unless people actually think drug usage has dropped over time? Which would be hilarious.

>>19958227
mind you this is just murder, there are lots of violent crime categories but the general trend is clearly resurgence

>>19958243
Oh yea, I don't disagree about that. It's interesting how crime has risen in the US (I don't live tehre). I was just asking you to be specific.

>>19958217
basednigger completely btfo

>>19956149
>murdering babies makes people more free

>>19956149
>>Face it anon, making abortion legal, or having free federal college loans makes the individual more free. In fact, in this way, progressives are actually more fanatical about freedom than conservatives.
All of the evidence is against you long term. The freedom to make bad decisions results in far less freedom after you face the consequences.

>>19958252
You can't abort foetuses that after the time they have developed consciousness

>>19958256
Life starts at conception

>>19958255
Nobody is free from the consequences just because they have more opportunities you retard.

>>19958252
Terminating a pregnancy certainly makes a woman more free because it means she doesn't have to pay money and take time to raise a kid the next 25+ years. Abortion activists LITERALLY use liberal arguments and rhetoric in favor of abortion(my body, my choice etc).

>>19958269
Is that morally relevant, though? If we kill something that does not and has not ever had conscious experience, we tend not to think of it as murder. In antiquity and the Middle Ages abortion was typically forbidden after the period known as "quickening" (when the foetus began to kick). This is a moral judgement roughly equivalent to our laws which ban abortion at the stage in the process when the foetus' brain is developing.

thread derailed after some genuinely good posts because you faggots wanted to cry about COVID and crime rates, congrats

>>19958272
Learn to read moron, you haven't answered my argument at all.

>>19958256
I don’t consider people with an IQ below 105 conscious.

>>19958290
There is no moral justification for abortion at any stage. You are killing your own offspring, your own kin. Literally ripping a human out of her mother to die while she is at her most innocent and most vulnerable. The only way you could justify it is if the child was not developing properly and would die anyways within a few weeks and put the mother at risk in the process.
It’s a complete inversion of the love between mother and child, one of the most purely good things in the universe.
We’ve reached a point as a society where this is seen as a normal and sensible thing to do simply because the woman feels like it would impede her ability to experience fleeting hedonistic pleasure or climb the corporate latter. Why? Because the powers that be see women as valuable tax cattle and the backbone of the consumer market. A young, 28 year old female office worker is an advertiser’s wet dream. They are the easiest people on earth to manipulate into spending money frivolously. They spend all their time on social media being served ads. They have a compulsive need to spend their hard earned money because they are emotionally drained from their pointless office work and need a reason to justify spending 60 hours a week writing emails and making power point presentations and attending meetings about scheduling meetings in order to discuss the number of meetings they’re having and whether they should be on zoom or face to face when they have more meetings cause there needs to be another meeting to discuss how to cut down on the number of meeting they’re having and whether to make them mandatory blah blah blah blah.
It’s all a part of a corrupt, fruitless, consumerist paradigm engineered to keep people infinitely distracted by having them generate massive piles of trash to consume and then throw away so they can keep demand high for more disposable trash. Disposable goods, disposable people. We’re not too far off from liquidating the elderly. Once the boomers die, they’ll be the last generation that was allowed to live past 72, hogging all the health care resources, living space, etc. Millennial progressives will pull the plug on Gen X elderly and past that age, they’ll be put in front of a death panel and in most cases scheduled for euthanasia.

>>19955025

Hello? Based department?

>>19958524
Anon the trad societies everyone here venerates practiced infanticide. Even the Old Testament has God ordering an abortion. This is emotional rhetoric, not argument. You mention "a human" so as to avoid saying "a person", because you know that the foetus is not capable of consciousness at the stages when abortion is legal. No one is being killed. There is no one there. There is no kin. No child.

>>19955025
*snap*
That's going in my cringe compilation

>>19954986
I think that young people's flock towards liberalism is not happening due to actual conviction, but rather mass movement bandwagoning because there are no other options. Liberalism, as you said OP, has no real alternatives so far, and this means young people in search of meaning or movements to support have nowhere else to go. They pick the easiest and most prominent ideology.

The ruling classes of the rest of the world by and large sit and wait for liberalism to die, which it will. Some of the larger nations, Russia, China, India, Turkey are developing their own counter ideologies. They have a national-integralist thing going on. Their assaults on liberalism will become better and stronger as these nations gain power in relation to the West. Russia is really pioneering the postmodern political ideology landscape by testing out new ways of warfighting and international relations. Their movements in Georgia and Ukraine are repudiating the liberal world order.

Liberalism is dying. As with any dying movement or regime it has reached its most radical and fanatical phase as its death spasms overtake it. As to what comes next, most likely a nation-state integralist thing. It's a bit Darwinian but we can expect the strongest ideologies to survive, eventually, the right one will emerge.

>>19958936
China is authoritarian liberal

>>19954986
You're conflating liberalism with progressivism.

>>19958961
Whats the difference in your mind?

>>19958159
>he could siphon huge amounts of money as president
Howso?

itt: people who haven’t actually read the book

People seem to think it’s a sort of Steven Pinker type screed about how Our Democracy is dying because people are abandoning muh hecking enlightenment. Deneen believes that liberalism was from the outset unsustainable and predicated on a foundation that it actively seeks to destroy. His vision of liberalism’s end isn’t “people didnt trust the science” or “everyone was so bored at the end of history they became communists”, it’s the oroborous of Western liberalism finally devouring itself as it excoriates its communities, debases citizenship, and relinquishes an ever greater amount of political power to a burgeoning administrative state. The institutions and value systems will remain intact.

>>19959034
Same way he did it in 2016-2020. Putting that idiot son of law of his in charge and inventing and handing out government orders/contracts to their businesses and business partners to cash in on. The same thing every asshole who runs for president does.

>>19959123
>burgeoning administrative state. The institutions and value systems will remain intact.
These two are contradictory in the most obvious way. The US has become far more authoritarian over the years, the institutions of government aren't even in tact compared to 20 years ago let alone 50 or more. Ridiculous take frankly.

>>19957202
>most peaceful and prosperous time in human history
And yet depression and mental illness are on all time high and traditional families and communities have been almost completely destroyed

>>19958998
Progressivism is an ever changing mores. In recent times it's used to divide liberals into what was in progressive vogue and what's woke now. Now if you're liberalism isn't MY form of liberalism you're as backwards as a the most headline of conservatives. I shouldn't have to explain my superior position to you, you should already see that MY position is so more enlightened. And so and and so on.

>>19954986
Western liberalism failed because it is no longer about personal liberty and individualism but about spreading degeneracy, LGBT, feminism and globohomo

>>19959638
>I shouldn't have to explain my superior position to you, you should already see that MY position is so more enlightened.

This is literally how liberalism works, what’s the difference?

>>19960110
All of those things are predicated on individual liberty, freedom and equality. They are just the newest iterations of the same basic liberal myths. Everyone who claims that progressivism is not related to liberalism is a delusional moron when it is quite blatantly exported by America to the rest of the world. What do you think “globohomo” is? It’s liberal capitalism trying to homogenize the globe.

>>19955189
>gerrymandering has an effect on presidential elections
Dunning-Kruger retard detected. All opinions discarded.

>>19960142
Was it always like that though? I feel like it's gotten worse. All my life I considered myself a liberal and apparently I'm not left enough these days.

>>19959560
>And yet depression and mental illness are on all time high.
I'm sure people who were periodically dying of hunger 200 years ago were a lot more depressed than anyone today.

>>19960198
Nah they were fasting and doing OMAD. They were at their peak of health and serenity.

>>19954986

If you look at history things always go this way
As a civilization develops it becomes more liberal and as it does the flaws of liberalism quickly become apparent and it collapses under them
Because liberalism has no productive end goal not even to sustain itself
It might seem unintuitive but more liberalism does in fact mean that it is "dying" in the same way a bubble is closer to popping the bigger it gets
The important thing to see is that these periods dominated by liberalism are far far smaller than the periods that aren't
It's very obvious we are in this stage and it's just a matter of waiting

>>19960142
freedom and equality are opposites which can't co-exist, our society started declining because we stared to value the illusion of equality over freedom

>>19954986

>This book is good but I hate how it convinced so many people to whine that liberalism is dying. How can people say it's dying when the global population is only becoming more liberal?
>Most countries are homogenizing into the same mass culture of consumerism.
>It’s true that Liberalism is decaying, but that doesn’t mean it’s being replaced.
How does any of this indicate that liberalism isn't failing? What, because you're intimidated by it?

- the moral-political aspect of how individuals perceive the system is not the system itself, that's po-mo cope which is descriptive on the political level only, and not beyond it
- it is possible for a failing system to have increasing popularity even as it is failing or already dead. the penultimate monarch of France was literally called Louis the Beloved and his popular image gave the kingdom an aura of false vitality when it would be completely uprooted 15 years after his death.
- the failure of liberalism and underperformance in objective terms is completely separate from the subjective understanding of the subjects; even if the subjects are perfectly brainwashed cattle they are still sick and infertile and atomized, at great cost to the planet, and none of these problems can even be perceived by liberalism let alone corrected

>Nobody is actually disagreeing with the core tenets of liberalism or trying to implement an alternative to it.
Not in America because America is a masonic arch-liberal golem which cannot possibly exist without liberalism. The Anglo countries birthed liberalism and they are the equivalent of the Papal States or Russia - they will see change at the very end of the age, and there is no hope for them before then.

>>19955025
You can't "be a monarchist", monarchism is a passive principle. That's the whole point, you sit there and get cucked.

>>19960343
absolutely retarded post

>>19960444
It only works if you have a retarded idea of what constitutes being a political "ist" that would make a person who supports the fact that sun rises a "sunist".

What are you going to do, vote for a monarchist party? The only people who can take action in support of monarchy are monarchs and members of their courts. There is absolutely no capacity to do this as an American, there isn't even a monarch in exile for you to rally behind. It doesn't work as an abstract concept, that's the whole point. It is a non-ideology.

>>19960182
This, also his conclusion doesn't follow at all from his reasoning.

>>19954986
Tocqueville for pseuds.

>>19958159
>Outside of America, in the only place that matters (China) things are radically different. They look upon the liberal experiment in the west as an object lesson and as something to learn from, and to never allow to happen to them.

Unfuck your head from all the chink propaganda, you gullible imbecil

>>19960541
NSA MASS SURVEILLANCE KENT STATE KENT STATE UNI CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY DAVID MISCAVIGE 佔領華爾街 MAY 4 1970 MASSACRE 肯特州立大学枪击事件 MAY 13 1985 MOVE BOMBING「MOVE」組織轰炸 RED SUMMER 1919 HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 众议院非美活动调查委员会 TRAIL OF TEARS 美国本地人种族灭绝 JIM CROW SEGREGATION 吉姆·克勞法 HUMAN RIGHTS 人權 CITIZENS UNITED 联合公民诉联邦选举委员会案 SAFETY 安全 HIGH SPEED RAIL 人民共和国高速铁路 STRONG MASS LINE 群众路线 REPUBLIC OF HAWAII 夏威夷共和国 THIRTEEN COLONIES 十三殖民地 VIETNAM AFGHANISTAN IRAQ 伊拉克 EDWARD SNOWDEN 爱德华·斯诺登 SCIENTOLOGY 山達基教會 GUANTANAMO BAY DETENTION CAMP 关塔那摩湾拘押中心 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE 諾貝爾和平獎 BARACK OBAMA 贝拉克·奥巴马 COMMUNISM SOLIDARITY LABOUR ACTION ANTI-CAPITALIST PRO-REVOLUTION PROTEST MOVEMENT ANTIFA RIOT POLICE BRUTAILITY POLICE OCCUPATION PAID SUSPENSION LEFTIST COUNTER PROTEST CHARLES MANSON MANSON FAMILY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BORDER CONCENTRATION CAMPS MKULTRA ASSASINATE FRED HAMPTON JANE FONDA EUGENE DEBS MALCOLM X EAT THE RICH THE CRUMBLING OF AMERICA REAGANOMICS INFOWARS MANUFACTURING CONSENT FASCIST OLIGARCHY FBI HONEYPOT NSA SPYING ICE DEPORTATIONS WAR ON DRUGS PRISON SLAVERY CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE ENHANCED INTERROGATION MY LAI PRISON RAPE DEPORTATION MS13 PIZZAGATE LOLIHENTAI PURCHASING KINDER EGG LOTTERY OPERATION SEA SPRAY PATRIOT ACT AMWAY 21 SAVAGE 奇多贝尼托 SCOTT WARREN NET NEUTRALITY LOVEINT EGLIN AIRFORCE BASE COINTELPRO OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION EARNEST VOICE OPERATION AURORAGOLD 1999 BELGRADE EMBASSY BOMBING IRAN AIR FLIGHT 655 QASEM SOLEIMANI JEFFREY EPSTEIN MASS PEDOPHILIA ABROAD AND DOMESTIC OPERATION SNOW WHITE HARVEY WEINSTEIN OPERATION CONDOR AARON SWARTZ WACO SIEGE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE 1998 CAVALESE CABLE CAR DISASTER PROJECT ELDEST SON GUNS FOR ANTIGUA GARY WEBB FREE BURMA RANGERS STRONGHOLD RESCUE & RELIEF MCNAMARA'S MORONS PROJECT APPLE PROJECT MIRROR PROJECT WITCH GEORGE PELL ACQUITTAL FORT DETRICK KILLING OF HUEY LONG BLAIR MOUNTAIN ERIC HARROUN MIRACLE VALLEY JINGMING BUILDING INCIDENT YANGJU HIGHWAY INCIDENT 16754432 JAPANESE WARCRIMES OPERATION ASIAN TOUCH OPERATION FREEDOM DEAL CHILEAN COUP D'ETAT TULSA MASSACRE MERE GOOK RULE MORO CRATER CUBANA FLIGHT 455 OPIOID EPIDEMIC SACKLER FAMILY JADE HELM 15 NO GUN RI RYAN WHITAKER PROJECT SUNSHINE WECH BAGHTU DASANI FAKE WATER ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS ICE HYSTERECTOMIES OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX OPERATION MONGOOSE JULIAN ASSANGE EMMETT TILL ANDRE VITCHEK NIKOLA MOTORS FORT HOOD MISSING SOLDIERS AGRICULTURAL ABCD AARON SWARTZ KENTUCKY POLICE HITLER RUSHAN ABBAS GITMO US MILITARY BUYS APP DATA ELAINE MASSACRE LITTLE HIROSHIMA

>>19960479
your kind of right.

>>19954986
ITT: Nobody is using the same dictionary and nobody has actually read the book. Never change lit

>>19960570
have sex

>>19954986
>How can people say it's dying when the global population is only becoming more liberal?
is it all i see is it getting more Islamic and more Chinese

>>19960479
>NOOOOO VOTING AND FIGHTING AND INVESTING IN MONARCHIST INITIATIVES ISNT REALLY MONARCHISM NOOOOOOO
>be a good liberal, you just have to participate in our economy without any further investment goy its easy :D
Yes, you can literally be an "ist" for any conceivable political program you stupid fuck, if it became a political question whether or not the sun rises, that would be an adequate "ism". There are isms that are entirely defined by diet and who you have sex with and they're politically influential, you don't have a monopoly on political legitimacy dipshit
I'm not even the guy from first post who claimed to be a monarchist at first, but you are still retarded

>>19960569
samefag / retard

>>19960647
>samefag / retard
Just a retard, I know the difference between your and you're.
>There are isms that are entirely defined by diet and who you have sex with
Yeah and obviously those involve *actions*, not liking something or not. A rawfoodist actually eats raw food, they don't just passively think it's 'le good'. I can accept that you are using a different definition than mine, and mine might be the one that is less fitting with the dictionary, but if you can't see a distinction between these 'isms' then you are a retard.

The only real logical hole in my statement is that it relies on him being American. A person in the UK could vote for a party that wants to expand or at least protect the powers of their monarch. In America this doesn't work as an extremist position, there is no monarch to support.

>>19960270
I don’t deny any of the negative effects of liberalism or its contradictions. It’s pure evil. But I think way too many political commentators and writers are being quick to dismiss the presence of liberalism in the world today, and more often than not these are “classical liberals” who in fact lament that basic liberal principles are not seen in practice today (Peterson for instance). Deneen isn’t one of them but he has shown support for parties like the Conservatives in the UK and it’s pretty baffling. It’s easy to criticize liberalism and how incoherent it is, but it’s a whole other thing to actually replace it with an alternative and convince the masses (especially young people) to stop believing in it.

>>19960270
>Not in America because America is a masonic arch-liberal golem which cannot possibly exist without liberalism
Hit the nail on the head. This what I'm talking about with American Monarchists being retards, they can't understand how Monarchism is fundamentally different from their 'political compass' meme ideologies that entirely owe their origins to liberalism. They can't think beyond the redditor's conception that the world is a struggle between argued ideas that the public ultimately chooses in some respect.

America will never be anything other than liberal until it faces a serious and thorough societal collapse and we are ruled by warlords and so on.

>>19960182
https://askinglot.com/how-can-gerrymandering-affect-presidential-elections

>>19960760
Just accept the fact that you were wrong instead of desperately looking for a scrap of truth in what you said. Gerrymandering only effects other systems that may themselves have some effect on the presidential election, it is totally irrelevant to the electoral college itself outside of the two states that split their districts (and those never make any difference, if they split at all).

>>19958192
your post is a retarded browncel cope.

>>19955189
the short term mindset of finance really betrays the current oligarch-media complex since they seem to truly believe that trump was the problem in and of himself. they don't understand that there's no going back. the next time a conservative populist appears it's going to be so much worse because he won't even have the illusion of fair play to fall back on

>>19955025
I fucking hate liberals, libertarians, socialists and any form of modern retarded system. Fuck your freedom and enlightenment.
Spiritual authority will prevails.

>>19960509
You obviously have not read either book to make that retarded of a comparison

>>19960576
Seethe

What's the essential reading list regarding the flaws of liberalism?

>>19960541
I lived in Shanghai for 4 years, what on earth in turn makes you think you're qualified to see through the propaganda that saturates both east and west?

>>19961018
wrong. it's a shit book and you should stop shilling it.

>>19954986
>WE HECKIN DEFEATED COMMINUSM TO
>OMG WE ARE DYING
in 20 years
sounds like more academic sensationalism

>>19961287
Plato's Republic for starters.

>>19960850
'modern retarded system' = fascism?

>>19960850
activates the almonds

>>19954986
The situation in Australia and Canada in last 2 years have completely pulled the mask off and shown liberal democracy is a joke

>>19961506
When a regime requires force and extreme measures to sustain itself it's no longer liberal

>>19961541
Liberalism has always been about force, totalitarianism and coercion. So many of you are hopelessly fucking dumb

>>19961506
Guess I'm voting Absolute Monarchist Party next election

>>19954986
Political scientists in the 90s grossly overestimated the challenge that illiberal regimes and the subaltern posed to the Western order. Terrorism in particular was a failure - McVeigh failed to impede the federal government, and Bin Laden failed to remove US bases from Saudi Arabia.

But my personal theory is that the desire to see liberalism fail runs deeper, and amounts to man's spiritual crisis. I think people resent and detest liberalism and utilitarian idealism without being able to fully understand or explain why, and I think they want to see it gone without any particular idea s to what would replace it. In the end I think Nietzsche was right about the death of God. Men simply aren't equipped to handle it.

>>19954986
>Most of the world speaks English
lmao

>>19955932
Came here to say this - it's already been said.

OP thinks if you believe trannys are cool, then you're liberal. No -- you're just a whack job and probably a little tyrant.

>>19954986
Another point: We still use the vocabulary of the 18th century. However, its value has diminished tremendously. People will mock you for invoking your right to free speech or your right to protest. These are dying concepts -- just like the US Constitution is dying.

>>19958252
>forcing mothers to give birth makes people more free

>>19961908
Counterpoint:
It’s value hasn’t diminished at all. It’s the value of the average citizen that has eroded away. I mean we are approaching the point in the West where citizenship means nothing and if anything is a form of bondage.

>>19961908
The right to mock is part of free speech and protest

>>19961373
Cope

>>19955025
>instant seethe
FPBP

>>19960743
>America will never be anything other than liberal until it faces a serious and thorough societal collapse and we are ruled by warlords and so on.
Well, yes - that is the plan. I completely reject America as a concept.

bump

>>19962314
Based

>>19954986
It's funny how sheep still believe in the idea of democracy when it's perfectly clear now that the people who actually influence things don't get elected by anyone.

>>19959560
>and traditional families and communities have been almost completely destroyed
Only if you're american

>>19962314
based

>>19956358
I reject it because it simply doesn't add up with reality. With a murder rate of 110 per 100 thousand a society past hunter gatherer level would simply not be able to function. That's pretty much low scale civil war on an endless basis.

>use pic related for thread
>ablabla the book good liberalism bad and some shit
>150+ replies immediately
500 replies soon like the last five threads

>>19954986

The problem of liberalism is the idea "I don't need God to be a good person, I don't need God to know killing is bad"
This isn't about whether god exists or not btw

Liberals in the past didn't realize they lived in a Christian society through inertia, because they took power on formerly Christian societies
If those societies had monogamous marriages between men and women, it was because of Christian inertia, not because it's something obvious for which you don't need god.
If you follow the liberal principle of letting consenting adults do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else, then marriage can be between homosexuals (it already is that way in the west), or polygamous, or between siblings and every kind of close relative. That is the logical conclusion of liberalism.
Now we see it because the last walls of the Christian social order are collapsing like a glaciar that hasnt been in cold weather since the french revolution.

In the end what liberals liked was christianity without god, but that is not something that can last a long time, after a few generations of that the christian social order goes down the drain. And the liberals that used to say "we don't need god to know murder is bad" end up living in a world in which they can get fired for saying that men can't get pregnant.

>>19954986
>This book is good but I hate how it convinced so many people to whine that liberalism is dying. How can people say it's dying when the global population is only becoming more liberal?
What is the Middle East, russia, china

>>19965662
>use actual book
>get permabanned

>>19965662
People have lost faith in democracy in last 2 years, half of Americans believe the election was stolen

>>19965704
"Cultural Christians" like Dawkins are perfect proof of this

>>19965743
Read the OP post. There’s a difference between people losing faith in democratic institutions vs. people not believing in democracy at all. The problem we see today is that liberalism is very clearly declining and destroying all vestiges of community, tradition and social order, but most people today are products of this degeneracy. They do not reject liberalism and instead argue that we just need to be better liberals if we want to salvage this system or save the West. It’s always “the woke commies are taking our freedoms away, we need to fight back!” Or “the straight white male patriarchy is oppressing LGBT BIPOC people, we need to liberate them!” The language is still liberal. Simultaneously we’re seeing liberalism erode human society but we also see it grow in influence because of social media and the sheer power of American culture.

>>19966012
>we also see it grow in influence because of social media and the sheer power of American culture
That's because it's on its last legs, the beast kick and screams the most when it's near death, give it time and people lose faith in system completely. Organised small tribes are the future.

>>19954986
This guy's book was considered recommended reading by Obama and I bet Deneen took pride in that fact.

Imagine the Russian Tsar recommending anti Tsarist literature or jews praising Kevin McDonald's work. If Deneen was a true threat to liberalism OG liberals like Obama wouldn't recommend to read his book.

>>19958195
The liberal case against democracy

>>19954986
I'm more disappointed in the fact that there doesn't seem to be any new ideologies on the horizon other than those of the last century; liberalism, marxism and fascism.

The 20th century was a fight between those three. Liberal nations teamed up with Marxist nations to militarily and ideologically defeat fascism. Then liberalism defeated Marxism ideologically and economically when the ussr broke apart.

Now in the 21st century it seems like everything will repeat itself. Yes, the far left has now discovered women and minorities but ultimately they still fall back on Marx and dream of communism.

Same thing for the far right. They have evolved too and try to come up with mental gymnastics why their ideology isn't the same as fascism but it is very close to fascism.

And then there's liberalism which enjoys the most support of these three ideologies.

>>19966406
The only people who still support Liberalism are out of touch boomers, youth is becoming more radicalized

>>19966440
Yeah and what do they want? Some variant of fascism or communism. Which is my point. Westerners havent come up with a new ideology.

>>19957181
>how Liberalism has failed to deliver on the ideals of the Enlightenment and Progressive movement

How exactly?

>>19966406
>>19966476
liberalism, marxism and fascism represent the 3 points of the political triangle with each one representing a different value, freedom, equality or tradition/stability, what kind of alternative is there supposed to be?

>>19966551
They are literally all produced from the European Enlightenment, and both socialism and fascism continue from the basic premises of liberal traditions. You want an alternative? You have to completely dismantle modernity as we know it and reject all modern European thought. Really, nothing in the world is capable of doing this. Islam and other religions can be considered an alternative but every country still follows modern models of statehood and economics.

>>19966560
So the endgame of Liberalism is to turn the whole earth into a hopeless prison planet with no culture or community?

>>19965704
Look at the East with abortion. Those soulless gooks slaughter millions of unborn and no one there raises an eye.

>>19966551
I'm not a Duginist but he isn't wrong when he writes that liberalism, communism and fascism are nihilistic ideologies spawned by modernity. Personally I am right wing and I neither identify with liberalism, conservatism, fascism, monarchism or right wing populism. What's left? Post-liberal right wing elitism

I believe a Ethno-Genesis is going to rebirth most white Americans as a revaluation of the “white” identity in a multiracial, technocratic police state that is trying their hardest to displace the MARs (Middle White America) confederacy by pushing them out of politics in favor of Third World conditions with Lower quality immigrants. Whites are the most abused and are the biggest dissidents in America right now, nobody, and not even the GOP would support them as a group or organize them similarly to the likes of blacks as an ethnic group or political group. But when they do, it brings devastating results for the country in every way, they have the biggest potential and can aim at the throat if it wasn’t for the Liberal ideological pacification and it’s idealism, but recently they gave the Republicans hell for not attacking CRT by taught in schools, the GOP never wanted to but their biggest voting base gave them hell for it and it payed off. They are the only important demographic that is keeping the country together cohesively, if you live in United States you will understand this.

Some people do notice though, the significance of Trump can be seen in how he restructured what had formerly been the most stagnant, dead-end oligarchic uniparty consensus in American history. For example, someone like Tucker, who sees which way the winds are blowing, is now explicitly pushing Buchananite "economic nationalism," which can very easily become national-socialism (a term Samuel Francis used), or some similar form of national syndicalism on an illiberal-antibourgeois basis. This is having knock-on effects on less imaginative and less ambitious people in the former Republican sphere, like Charlie Kirk, a typical bowtie Young Republican if not for Trump, who because of thought leaders like Tucker can now see the writing on the wall too. Even if people like Kirk are total opportunists, doesn't matter, they are pushing the overton window simply by chasing clout and office. That's how you wage war against the system, you exploit the same cynicism it normally exploits to keep things stagnant in order to make it brittle instead.

And right over the horizon from the Kirk types is Fuentes. Fuentes is a minor figure currently, but Greg Johnson had a good article on him today or yesterday saying that his chief value is that he is a bridge between the Kirk neo-populist wing of the Republican party and the avowed ethnonationalists. Fuentes is to Kirk as Kirk is to Tucker.

>>19966596
real liberalism has never been tried

>>19966651
fascism is the only nihilistic one of the bunch. liberalism and communism believe in emancipation or self-realisation

>>19966596
Yes actually, that’s the goal. Francis Fukuyama has admitted this himself. Liberals want this because they see it as a peaceful resolution. They are willing to destroy all culture, glory and meaning as long as people won’t go to war.

>>19966856
This, it’s not an ideology, it’s a fucking machiavellian inspired prison.

>>19966856
peace (economic co-operation) doesn't mean destruction or non-development of culture, glory, meaning, etc. it's hard to have an 'exchange' if everything is the same

>>19966876
If you ask me, if there is any economic system that is anti-art it is Capitalism, because the primary mode of economic production deals with exchange, everything made under capitalism is a commodity that must be sold and exchanged. This is the antithesis of what art is supposed to be, as art is made not for exchange but for creation alone.

>>19966888
"art" is mystical voodoo shit that just ends up being a commodity anyway because it's supposed purpose is impossible to achieve. do you believe in the transformative power of paint? it's secular ritualism

>>19966651
So we just go back to monarchism?

>>19966926
Art isn’t supposed to be mainstream consumables or even Stocks, thats called a commodified product or asset. It seems that art today is valued more than ever, but it’s also the worst it’s ever been because of tasteless Rich Fags who purchase these pieces and make them popular, wonder why? it’s called ‘Art investing’ and it’s a thing, more today than ever, an asset they can use to prevent inflation losses. NFT’s are great example of this.

Good art is esoteric for the most high class and cultured people who understand it’s nuanced myths and story telling. People can make art without some sort of profit motive, it’s called passion.

>>19966318
Not every book is a manifesto dumdum

>>19966866
>>19966856
Fukuyama wrote an entire book about identity so I don't think it's fair to say he advocates for people to be rootless consumers trapped in a prison.

>>19967019
Never said it was

>>19966848

Communism and liberalism are just Christianity without God. Man as God. This is peak nihilism.

>>19967034
Right, but my point more specifically is that there is no reason a liberal would oppose an anti-liberal work, so long as it was solely descriptive... They might see it as a helpful diagnosis, even.

>>19967048
>Communism is left secular Christianity
>Liberalism is right secular Christianity
>Fascism is tribe-state worship aping Christian conventions and rituals
Feels good to stay winning even in defeat Christbros, remember the point of it all

>>19966955
I mentioned that I don't favor monarchism either. The way I view history, there's no going back. Monarchism has many advantages over democracy and a longer track record. But the way I view history there are good reasons for historical changes. Monarchists basically argue that abandoning monarchy in favor of democracy was a "mistake" or "accident" humanity made akin to leaving the light switch on or something like that and all we need to do is just go back to monarchism and then all will be fine. That's not how history works in my opinion. The people who overthrew monarchies had legitimate grievances. What I want is a post-liberal ideology that combines good things from the past with good thing from the present.

>>19967063
I get what you mean. But then Obama would probably be more Straussian about it and secretly let his OG liberal friends know about the book instead of letting the whole world know.

Again, if a book seriously challenged Tsarist rule would the Tsar (publicly) praise the book?

>>19967087
>What I want is a post-liberal ideology that combines good things from the past with good thing from the present.

Not him, but the Fascist and also subjective idealist philosopher Gentile conceptualizes something similar. The Fascist state in his terms it as a living synthetic creation that evolves with the people. Combining philosophy with raw power and unifying the people into one central identity. It also serves as way to link to the ancient times with a twist regarding both futurism & reactionary modernist themes of society.

>>19967082
That's not really a win in my opinion. Christianity was not able to withstand the onslaught of modernity.

>>19967102
My worldview has some similarities to fascism like rejection of liberal, parliamentary democracy, critique of capitalism, emphasis on national pride, strength, beauty and so on. But ultimately fascism was a petty bourgeoise scared reaction to bolschevism and actually pretty similar to it. Also too democratic, populistic and modernist in my opinion. I adhere to the traditional right wing view on the masses as vulgar, profane and dangerous whereas HitIer and Mussolini based their rule on the masses.

>>19966815
>For example, someone like Tucker, who sees which way the winds are blowing, is now explicitly pushing Buchananite "economic nationalism," which can very easily become national-socialism (a term Samuel Francis used), or some similar form of national syndicalism on an illiberal-antibourgeois basis.

I very much like this part. The elites hate Tucker for this reason. Every few weeks WaPo and NYT churn out articles trying to denounce Tucker but they can't come up with any good critique. Their most common critique is "Tuckers middle name is Swanson" and "Tucker pretends to be the voice of the working class and middle class while coming from an elite family himself". Well, having an elite background precisely allows him such introspection and insider knowledge that he shares with his MAR audience.

I agree that whites are the most productive members and the largest voting block in America, not trying to be alarmist but time isn't in favor of them. Also, where in Sam Francis works does he mention national socialism? Really curious about this.

>>19967111
Modernity doesn't function without Christian institutions. Once it erodes them, it fails.
In other parts of the world the local customs prevail for a similar reason - exactly why China's communist resurgence is invoking Confucian ideals lol

>>19967140
>petty bourgeoise scared reaction to bolschevism
No offense but what does this even mean? Mussolini at one point wanted to form an alliance with Russia at the time when Marxist Leninism was a compelling force, at least before the Cold War showed the Leninism needed critique of itself until it shit the bed geopolitically and broke up. It's later on conclusions really Mussolini himself told Hitler that when he started his struggle against Communism, he didn't even know where he was going lmao.

As it for being ‘peti’ I find the term to abstract and too personal like a derogatory name, the elites and the king hated the Fascist party and worked with the partisans to overthrow them in the end, The Faces of Janus by Gregor goes over how Socialist intellectuals post-war admitted that the Italian economy was more progressive than it was ‘reactionary’.

also Corporatism is the 'end goal' of Fascism, 'class collaboration' isn't btw. People confuse the two. Every 'socialist' country which has ever existed was in fact corporatist. Corporatism for Fascism is simply the recognition of the reality that the 'economy' is not something static. The Doctrine of corporatism was instated to reduce the marginalization of any one class' interests while increasing the productive forces in a way in which the state deemed to be desirable. The end goal of course being a developed and modern Italy. It was very successful, the government would embark itself in the establishment of 436km of highways, 5160km of electricity lines, 22,800km of railways, and the design and advancement of technological goods that were ahead of its time.

>>19966651
>Post-liberal right wing elitism
Give just one practical example of what this even means

>>19967173
>This completely misunderstands Sam Francis. Francis was pretty clear about the identity of this working class: It’s a white proletariat. He did not envision Mexican fruit-pickers, black McDonald’s workers, and white welders all joining forces to take on the white managerial elite. Race is inseparable from Francis’ thinking.

>Here is what Francis said about the dispossessed revolutionary class in 1994:

>As long as whites continue to avoid and deny their own racial identity, at a time when almost every other racial and ethnic category is rediscovering and asserting its own, whites will have no chance to resist their dispossession and their eventual possible physical destruction. Before we can seriously discuss any concrete proposals for preserving our culture and its biological and demographic foundations, we have to address and correct the problem we inflict on ourselves, our own lack of a racial consciousness and the absence of a common will to act in accordance with it.

A post-bourgeois proletariat without any sense of racial consciousness is doomed to failure. This is at the core of Francis’s thinking.

Bump

>>19954986
liberalism means to be liberal with ones feelings. you pervert the language you use to contort and manipulate words from their original meaning. 90% of the population isn't "liberal" because they went to school for definitions. 90% of the population is through and through cowardly. Here I will loosely quote Dostoevsky from Brothers Karamazov: It's much easier for the youth to sacrifice their lifes, but for them to dedicate years of thorough study is behind any of their capability.

>>19961287

>>19961287

>>19966999
generally throughout the history of art you will find it was collected through either purchase or commission. whatever place 'creation' has in your metaphysics in the end its goals are something unobtainable for art. mystical shit

>>19967048
no, peak nihilism is trying to force the glory of a secular culture for 1000 years because there's nothing else on earth to do. christianity borrows from the same metaphysics as communism and liberalism, rather than christianity providing the blueprint. without metaphysics there is nihilism, not without god

>>19967382
ironic that you're perverting the meaning of 'liberalism'

>>19954986

Should I read this or The Servile Mind?

>>19967525
what does liberalism mean to you then

>>19967648
They are both pretty short and straight-forward.

>>19956686
>guys I swear it work this time.
>>19957184
exactly.

>>19960479
>everyone must be american!!11
do I even need to say it?

>>19960110
its failing because of outside influences (russia, china) subverting our belief in America.
All these marxist college grads writing faggotry. They want to rip away all the current shit so they can have a "communist utopia".
Once everyone is equal it will all work out, right? Once the revolution happens everything will be perfect!

>>19967924
take this shit to fox news comment sections on facebook, these threads are for people who actually know what liberalism is and how modernity works

>>19967980
no. fuck you, russia, china, and hegel.

>>19967924
Yes goy, believe in America so that we can legalize gay sex in more countries across the world! Believe in America and the American Dream of a totally mutted land of opportunity can live on!
YES DON'T FALL FOR THE SINO-RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA GOYIM!!

>>19954986
>reads this dumb book by some basic CFR-type fag
>still doesn't understand the word 'liberal' or the thesis of the book

>>19954986
Liberalism will NEVER go away, unless a catastrophic event happens (extinction, world ending event). Liberalism is extremely strong and adaptable, what will happen is that eventually all liberal countries will evolve to Nordic model, but a revolution will never happen because the downsides of liberalism aren't strong enough to make the large population renounce the conformities it provides and people grow more complacent as time goes by.
Every single person that argues against this FACT is in some serious amounts of cope.

And that's a good thing.

>>19969259
This is a response to someone screeching about liberalism from a "leftist" perspective, I didn't mention the right wing perspective because being a "conservative" is a meme and the goal post moves every year to what makes someone a con.
Most of right wingers in terms if economics are completely retarded ( see trickle down economics) and the social/racial aspects will never go away they will be adopted by the "new type" of liberals in the future, but of course that economically liberalism will never go away, because it's right and too strong.
Commies will never go away but they will continue to be mostly politically irrelevant and most of the problems modern "socialist" screech about will be resolved when everyone adopts the Nordic model so their population will decrease.

>>19954986
https://www.memri.org/reports/russia-us-standoff-ideological-dimension
worth a read

>>19966551

>>19967193
So this the old "without religion morals decay" argument? I don't disagree but I don't see how modernity is particularly moral. In Saudi Arabia they have iPhones and high rise buildings and no Christianity.

>>19967199
If you look at the core voter base of the NSDAP and Hitler himself both have a petty bourgeoise background. Basically the European middle classes were afraid of "godless bolshevism" taking over from the east and elected fascist strongmen to protect their private property. Fascism is a middle class phenomenon. Against the underclass, hence rejecting communism but also against the upper class, hence rejecting free market capitalism and aristocracy.

I don't know much about Mussolini but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of his voters were petty bourgeoise as well.

>>19966888
Capitalism is just market liberalism though, so it could, and should, be argued that Liberalism is anti-art.

>>19969259
>all liberal countries will evolve to Nordic model
That model only works in homogeneous high trust societies

>>19969259
>>19969278
>western liberal societies have below replacemebnt birth rates except strong religious communities
>majority of the world is sick of America's influence
>current western economic system is completely unsustainable due to extreme inflation

I give it 20 years before the EU and America dissolve, the West is gonna collapse just like Rome and after years of darkness a new stronger civilization will rise

>>19969259
You may be trying to sound hyperbolic, but this is a serious possibility. If we understand liberalism to be the mediation of modern technological development then any country that urbanizes faces the risk of becoming liberal. You have developed countries like China and Saudi Arabia that are decidedly illiberal, but how much longer until their populations eventually succumb to cosmopolitan degeneracy? How much longer until they start demanding pride parades, a greater role in politics, more fluid identities to pick and choose, etc? Liberalization is a natural tendency in developed states, and if any country wants to make their governance as easy as possible, they could simply become liberal and eradicate any sort of ambition, glory, community and culture in exchange for comfort. Divide the economy into private institutions, delude your people that they’re free and equal, and you get to run your country on autopilot (essentially America since 1991). That’s the most terrifying scenario I can ever think of: a completely liberalized world, an actual cyberpunk hell of hedonism.

She would be wild then, in the close, breathing halfdark without walls, with her wild hair, each strand of which would seem to come alive like octopus tentacles, and her wild hands and her breathing: “Negro! Negro! Negro! Negroman HELP ME AHHHHHH I'M GOING INSAAAAAAAAAAANE"

>>19954986
Liberalism contains some contradictions though since it was an ideology (embraced by businessmen) in opposition to monarchy while also simultaneously justifying colonialism, slavery, etc. There is a reactionary opposition to liberalism today, discomfited at the social and political consequences which liberalism has wrought, but at the same time, the tendency for liberalism to "woke" itself up contains a further contradiction in that you can't logically justify a system which selects a few "black faces in high places" (in the U.S, here) while most remain poor. You also see one of the most reliable means of building assets -- home ownership -- being withdrawn for a lot of young people who are not just black, they're a lot of young whites too.

>>19955118
>Today's corporate backed counterculture will inevitably birth its antithesis counterculture tomorrow.
Well, a lot of people also think corporate-backed "counterculture" is horseshit because it's insincere. Not everyone draws right-wing conclusions about that stuff. I think people often know when they're being "sold" something.

>>19956063
>Economically yes the world is still liberal, but more and more people are getting into collectivist ideas because the neo-liberal promise of individual pursuit of happiness is not working for them.
It's pretty simple base/superstructure. Neoliberalism was based on a promise of growth and when the growth goes away, that destabilizes the superstructure. By its own definition it can't really survive but I don't think it's exactly doomed yet. I think over the long term it's probably doomed but you know there was another time when people underestimated its resiliency.

>>19956144
>If the liberal system fails then the solution is always just to reinforce those exact same values.
Yeah it's a doubling down effect. In a way the trucker convoy ('more freedom") are not that different from liberal foreign policy warhawks in D.C. who have been racking up Ls all over the world for the past 20 years but keep doubling down. The world just needs more "freedom!"

>>19969342
>I don't know much about Mussolini but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of his voters were petty bourgeoise as well.
He had a lot of support among land owners so yes. They recruited from other social classes though as well as lumpen elements (demobilized soldiers wandering around). I think it also has some national characteristics, like the reason fascism came to power in Germany, Italy and Japan is not a coincidence because they were kind of "in the middle." They weren't colonized countries (which Russia basically was until the revolution there), but they weren't at the top of the pack like Britain and America. France also still had her colonies. Fascism is not an ideology built around "leveling" society or making it fairer or kinder, it seeks to replace the current masters and become new masters, and make the current masters into slaves for the new masters. Like, that's what the Nazis did if you accept their own theory that the Jews had been the "masters" as they literally enslaved the Jews and forced them to work in concentration camps.

Communism is more radical because it seeks to abolish masters and slaves. Now, people reading this might think the reality is quite different, and it doesn't run perfectly, but the idea is different.

I think you can kinda see something similar in Ukraine with these neo-Nazi groups. The rank-and-file are low-life gangsters, declassed since the industry collapsed, and are like private enforcers for oligarch clans. They also suffer from an identity crisis because they consider Russians to be beneath them (subhuman Mongoloids or whatever) while they also consider themselves "more West than the West." Like "more German than the Germans" who are above them but whom these guys consider to be too cosmopolitan, pacifistic, weak, friendly to gays, etc.

>>19969259
t. DSA member

>>19967217
Work together with antifa to get the name and address of fascists. Arrest and execute them and then do the same with antifa. Ban left wing newspapers. Deport all illegals and immigrants who have a criminal record. That'd be a start.

>>19969628
Nope, I think commies are mostly retarded, I can barely call myself a socdem.

>>19954986
Liberalism could be able to sustain itself without feminism and intersectionality which destroyed basic family unit

>>19969695
But that's the point you retard. DSA are full of Hillary Clinton neolibs who are LARPing as socdems and communists. And your post was like the perfect rendition of a speech the average DSA member could give when any group would threaten the integrity of American electoral consensus. Even fucking Noam Chomsky doubles down as a dumb liberal when push comes to shove.

>>19969644
So, anti extremism is your ideology?

>>19969908
>anti extremism
that's a convoluted way of saying weak

>>19969644
Based & Karl Popper-pilled.

>>19969911
You mean mentally sound. Far left and far right are mentally ill people who have more in common with each other than they admit and they're both populists, whereas the center is elitist.

>>19955118
>All my /pol/tard friends hate wokeism!
If you had any real ability to interact with other people you wouldn’t be here. You’ve never actually talked with anyone about this stuff. Vast majority of normies eagerly parrot whatever line the corporations tell them
>Diversity is our strength
>Islam is a religion of peace
And so on and so forth

>>19966888
Well art doesn't really feed hungry stomachs. It's overrated.

>>19968323
what would be a better option? enough with the crying about jews. Its getting worse than the blacks blaming whites.

>>19969769
yes.

>>19967442
I wonder what that edgelord has to say about the hundreds of years of gruesome religious wars in France that didn't end until the French Revolution.

>>19969259
The "Nordic model" you're so fond of will face collapse due to dismal birth rates and high immigration

>>19969342
>I don't know much about Mussolini but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of his voters were petty bourgeoise as well.

Yeah, clearly you don’t, despite the claim made by members of the Left Wing political sector, this newborn movement was largely consistent of former soldiers and peasants. The supposed relevance of this support lacks sourcing, since most of the records and principal biographers/historians of both Mussolini and Fascism showcase that support Fascism got from both sources of income was limited, having most of its support come from the large mass movement it had gathered. And Even then, Fascism would carry worker protests of its own, and would have the presence of radical syndicalist figures, that would organize and endorse these activities such as; Aurelio Padovani, Edmondo Rossoni, The De Ambris Brothers (Alceste and Amilcare), Roberto Farinacci, Michele Bianchi, among others.

>>19958524
Abortion was historically accepted practice. It only became controversial after women's suffrage. You're emotionally attached to the fetus because that is the only role in abortion you can empathize with as a man.

>>19970087
>Newfag thinks only autists frequent 4chan
Since day one normies have been here
Just because YOU are a lonely, socially awkward, faggot doesn't mean every other user is incapable of only going on 4chan when they're taking a shit.

>>19956290
>>19956277

So we're enemies in a single country fighting for control. How does democracy not end in civil conflict with the state picking sides?

>>19956686
Socialism already happened in the West. Social Security and the Welfare State prove it.

>>19969769
But those are emergent properties of liberalism

>>19970391
I never said fascism has much to do with big business. "Fascism is capitalism in decay" is a tankie cope. Like I wrote earlier, fascism was a reaction to bolshevism and had quite a lot in common with it. Marxists don't like to hear this but large parts of the working class supported fascism. Mussolini used to be a Marxist as were many other prominent Italian fascists.

>>19971068
>those are emergent properties of liberalism
Wrong liberalism is about freedom but got corrupted by religious belief in equality

>>19960343
>>19960479
>>19960701
>You can't advocate for a political system that lessens your political power!
What an idiotic take. Some of us care more about the actual welfare of the country instead of the selfish illusion of political power that is modern voting.

>>19967344
Leftists literally scrambling for excuses not to support workers. The "lol technically they're petit bourgeois!" thing is like a slavery abolitionist excusing himself from participating in a mass slave rebellion by saying "um.. uh.. technically some of the slaves are being trained to fight by non-slaves so this is a revolt of non-slaves."

Every actual leftist like Richard Wolff came out and called it retarded. The truckers were FORCED to operate as "small business owners" by bullshit legislation. But even if they hadn't been, it's still amazing these fucking tranny scum cocksucking faggots scrambled for a reason not to put their money where their mouth is.

I hope some Stalinist comes to temporary power in some shithole, and all the trannies flock to him like foreigners flocking to fight for their preferred side in the Spanish Civil War, and the Stalinist immediately slams the trap shut and purges them all. I fucking hate trannies so much it's unreal, they are not just parasites, they are walking conduits of raw parasite energy from some other dimension of pure evil.

>>19954986

>we are still arguing with each other using a liberal vocabulary of freedom, equality, liberation, democracy, individuality, etc

All you have to do is change the conversation. Democracy is an empty form, no? We find the word in the strangest places, and it cannot be merely a lie in the case of North Korea's moniker. Democracy has morphed from its dawn in Europe as the hammer that leveled monarchy to an embellished ideal of absolute equality. These waves of democracy are found in Plato and Rousseau, each responding in their own ways to man's natural yearning for politics to make them whole individuals, equal, and equitable to all.

The idea I want to emphasize is the relationship between democracy and revolution: democracy engendered in Europeans an unbridled religion, progress. Now, due to reasons that I cannot capture here, the modern faith in historical progress is aimless for the very reason that history does not move according to progressive, liberal ideals. Nonetheless, the success of democracy attached to liberalism marked on man's heart the love of freedom, whatever form that takes. Most of all, people have faith that progress will bring them happiness, and the government's duty is to enforce progress. But this is merely the second of the modern ideologies which captured Russia's and China's imaginations: communism. It has many forms and degrees, but reliance on the government to distribute and organize the means of production, the means of comfort and entertainment, and medical protection from one's own failures of moderation (not to ignore the faith in medical science to cure even death itself, or as we have seen lately, computer and medical scientists to avert death by uploading our consciousnesses onto a cloud server, heaven, forever fulfilling man's eternal quest to find life after death). All of this, and more, developed as a rejection of the bourgeois money-makers and urbanization. Germany watched the third form, a distorted fascism, National Syndicalism mark the whole continent of Europe and much of North Africa with the treads of tanks.

I know, fascism was opposed to democracy. It was opposed to absolute democracy, communism, and bourgeois democracy, liberalism. It is always a democracy of a few, you see? Be it the wealthy money-makers, the Aryan race, humanity as a whole. Equality for a few and inequality for everyone else is the very definition of democracy. The question that regimes answer is who is allowed on the guest list? Liberalism's and Democracy's revolution against monarchy instilled such a fervent lust for revolution in European that no one in the world knows the difference between revolution and democracy. They don't even care very much. It is an aimless desire to revolutionize the political form to suit their needs and desires.

All you have to do is change the conversation. Use different words. People will follow eventually simply because it is new.

>>19971629
retard

>>19955025
This is a larp. Just be a hereditary dictatorist like me.

>>19967442
All problems actually date back to the Magna Carta and Charlemagne. Only because of his idiocy, the French Revolution could happen in the first place.

>>19958524
Good christ, man. Look I agree with you in that abortion is morally reprehensible. But as a matter of law I don't think the govt should insert itself into people's business. Involving unconscious beaurocrats always leads to worse consequences.
As to the second half of your rambling: there's no global cabal trying to enslave the masses by proliferating consumer culture. There's not a single person, let alone a group of people, who possess the requisite knowledge, skills, influence, competence, wisdom, etc. to pull that off. The inner machinations of society are of an unknowable depth. Nobody can master them

>>19969769
>>19974014
The west becamse successful because of freedom and capitalism, the west does not export freedom anymore, they export LGBT and feminism

liberalism = altruism

>>19975360
>children being murdered is like, none of your business, man