/lit/ - Literature

ive read a book on taosism and still don't understand it

help me out bros

>>19962972
Read The Wisdom of Zhuang Zion Daoism
Translated with Annotations and Commentaries byChung Wu
its the most handhold book on Taoism short of a wiki summary

>>19962972
Its just spoopy math

>>19962972
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-q3bEuBUuU

>>19962826
You had the wrong idea of what philosophy is. You thought it was a field of study but it is a way of life concerned with one's salvation. This is what Pythagoras and the others understood by philosophy. And yes in that sense it is a religion.

>>19963016
I feel like the separation of philosophy and religion is why so many western "Christians" can have so much idiosyncratic hatred for each other while being in the same rite or congregation

Reminder that there's no divide between 'religious' and 'philosophical' Taoism
Reminder that everything you know about taoism came from the slander of neoconfucian scholars and westerners

>>19963038
>NOOOO WATCH THIS ALAN WATTS VIDEO

>>19962826
religion vs philosophy nonsense is just for people prejudiced against religion and afraid of branding that isn't socially in. fact is religion encapsulates philosophy and is usually the reason it exists. i wonder how chinese people, at different times, label the things in their canon.

>>19962972
the usefulness of not understanding is self awareness

>>19963038
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Bi
Explain this then

>>19963044
which one? i actually want to watch it

>>19962826
>BTFOs Buddhists so hard that they have to develop "I Can't Believe It's Not Daoism" Zen tradition to remain relevant

>>19964552
Hey at least zen preserved the best kind of tea.

>>19962826
Finding the Tao Te Ching honestly changed my life and I still don't think I've fully adjusted to the impacts of reading it and gleaming even a bit of understanding.

>>19964740
What did you get out of it exactly, what did you find so enlightening

>>19962826
I agree. It helped me have an optimistic world view and helped me both spiritually and socially. I can’t make heads or tails of most of it, but that’s just like life

>>19963016
>This is what Pythagoras and the others understood by philosophy
Math = Metaphysics = Philosophy.
If A = B = C then A is C, thus math is philosophy.

>>19962826
I read it recently. Its better than I expected. Reading picrel rn

>>19964740
It’s definitely the most life affirming religion imo. No surprise that once Buddhism reached China it was sinicized to be less depressing.

Taoists be like: better drink this mercury and ox piss elixir to extend my life!

>>19962972
whatever people say taoism is, is not taoism.
whatever people give the name taoism, is not taoism.

this is the first 2 lines of the dao in chinese, translated properly. no one can tell you what it is. you have to just be it.

>>19965240
A man has to make a living

>>19964923
If religion is metaphysics,
and metaphysics = math and metaphysics = philosophy,
if A = B = C, then A = C,
then religion = math and religion = philosophy.

>>19965524

>>19962972
The Tao is

>>19962826
What translation should I read?

>>19965936
Gu zhengkun

Is there a large body of good literature in Mandarin? I was thinking of learning it.

>>19966023
Yes. Most daoist literature is in classical Chinese but there is a huge amount of more accessible literature in Mandarin dating from the end of the Qing dynasty. Then there has been a lot of excellent stuff written since the 1960s when daoist studies became its own academic discipline in China. Learning Chinese enriched my life immensely

>>19966055
Reading Marx in Chinese is particularly stimulating

>>19962826
I need to sit down and read the Dao De Jing some time. But I've got a bunch of other things I'm reading right now.

>>19966099
You can literally read it in an hour

>>19966099
>He doesn't read standing

>>19966122
I mean, you can "read" it in the sense of reading the words, sure, but actually understanding it takes reading it over and meditating on it. I'm also planning on reading it in the original Chinese, possibly with a commentary to help me make sense of it, which will take longer.

>>19966125
>He

>>19966099
>>19966126
Listen to an audio version of it, like this one: https://youtu.be/jVbNPQZwL6k
Listening to it really brings out its poetic nature and you can just pause to reflect on what you've just heard.

>>19964635
what tea?

>>19966126
The gu zhengkun version has the original Chinese and pinyin as well as English translation on facing pages, best reading version imo.

Dan Reid's version is also very good and has the heshang gong commentary, which is the most accessible and historically relevant commentary. That is a bigger time investment but of course with it

>>19962972
this pretty much.

>DUDE CHINESE NIHILISM #4125 IS TOTALLY THE MOST BASED PHILOSOPHY
>UHHH CHRISTIANITY? DUDE THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.
>DUDE JUST MEDITATE AND STUFF LOL
>DUDE JUST GO WITH THE FLOW, HOW HECKIN AWESOME IS THAT
>SINS? CHRIST? DUDE DON'T WORRY ABOUT ALL THAT JUST BE LIKE WATER AND STUFF IT'S HECKIN AWESOME AND TOTALLY CALMING AND STUFF
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

>>19966192
What are trying to achieve?

>>19966299
He's seething and trying to deal with feelings that he isn't capable of understanding. It's not his fault, Jews did this to him.

>>19966192
you went today and arrived yesterday

>>19966299
The salvation of your soul. Stop falling for cutesy riddles and haikus about cherry blossoms, rivers, water drops, etc, and read the gospels.

>>19966417
No thanks, that sounds gay

>>19966417
>stop falling for cutesy riddles and haikus about cherry blossoms, rivers, water drops, etc., and start falling for cutsey riddles and parables about fruit, birds, seeds, etc.

>>19966431
Actually, yes, you should “fall for” the latter. Your motivations don’t have to be perfect at the start, so long as you give yourself the opportunity to walk in the Spirit, and give God the opportunity to open your ears to hear and eyes to see the gospel

>>19965936
Victor Mair

>>19966145
'Poetry' has been defined as 'that which is lost in translation'. If I'm going to listen to it, I'll listen to it in Chinese.

>>19966448
Why should we believe any of that's true?

>>19967223
that would be a pointless, pointless waste of time if you don't understand chinese.
>le maybe i will pick up an intuition of the philosophy thru le sound of the words :)
You will not. You will only waste your time.

>>19967246
I actually am learning Chinese, though I'm not sure if my listening comprehension is quite up to the task yet.

"Those who know don't speak; those who speak don't know." - Lao Tzu

So Nietzsche didnt know shit.

>>19962826
Yes.

>>19966448
Abrahamism really is just Daoism without the willingness to let go of the human race's obsession with language and the need to feel special, isn't it?

>>19967384
How so?

>>19967253
It’s written in Classical Chinese, a language that may never have been pronounceable (scholars differ), and if it was the pronunciation is beyond lost. Listening to it in Mandarin pronunciation is no different to listening to it in English.

If you want to read it in the original you should study Classical Chinese and do so - luckily for you it has probably the most English scholarship of any Classical Chinese work, so it’s easy to find translations and commentaries, and its vocabulary is not particularly hard.

>>19967622
I don't see how- yes, it's a different pronunciation, but it directly reflects the original text, it's not a translation.

>>19967631
Modern Mandarin does not have the same grammar or vocabulary as CC, and 99% of Chinese speakers would not understand the Dao De Ching read to them aloud (unless they remember it from school). Imagine listening to an audiobook of Cicero in a thick French accent and thinking you’re connecting to the classics. you’re larping.

>>19967658
Because they don't speak Classical Chinese. But it's not in principle impossible if you do speak the language, though there would be less issue with homophones in a more conservative southern dialect.

"There are no different beings! There are neither distinctions nor opposites! The sage stands at a point where 'I' and 'you', 'this' and 'that', 'yes' and 'no', seem still indistinct. This point is the immobile center of a circumference, around whose perimeter roll all the contingencies, all the differences, all the individualities. A point from which nothing can be seen but an infinity that is neither "you" nor "me", neither "this" nor "that", neither "yes" nor "no". To contemplate everything in the undifferentiated primordial unity, this is true wisdom." (Chuang Tzu, L.2)

>>19967675
If you want to read it aloud yourself to remember it better, Mandarin is as good a pronunciation as any, as is Korean or kanbun kundoku - but listening to someone else read it aloud because it’s “poetry” is larping. CC is a written language. 而已矣

>>19967735
Oral recitation has long been an element of it, though, even if it was read and written foremost. (And I do think it has a poetic element to it- many sections have parallelism and even rhyme, albeit less well in modern pronunciations. And I see no reason to think CC isn't essentially based on Old Chinese if a little more concise and polished.)

>>19967363
This is a great book!

>>19967278
>One who pees on head gets head pooped on!!!
Chinese philosophy is aggrandizing garbage. I wish this stoner bullshit wasn't shilled so heavily on this board.

>>19967761
Don't confuse the Western bastardization of it with the real thing.

Based book.

>>19967798
Taoism is the philosophy of rambling batty old Chinese grandmas that revel in ignorance and superstition.

>>19967842
At its worst, sure. At its best I think there's some value in it, though.

Threadly reminder that if you have to read it in English, you're never gonna make it and you're merely wasting your time.

Once it is translated to English, it instantly becomes new age garbage. There's no exception to the rule.

>>19966154
Mediocritea

>>19966192
The core concept of dao is not unlike logos. Most chinese versions of the Bible use it as the translation of logos because of it's similar cultural connotations.

One might argue that this was just a strategic move on the early translator's part to quickly legitimize Christianity in china but Christians would argue that daoism's roots lie in the revelation of divine wisdom to pre-christian pagans. Lao Tzu is even counted among the virtuous pagans along with the likes of Plato and Aristotle.

>>19967964
I'm a Christian and own a translation of the Tao Te Ching by James Legge. I was definitely reminded of the Gospel of John's prologue while reading it. Other parts seemed remarkably in line with the biblical wisdom literature.
One day, I hope to go through the Tao Te Ching again and annotate it line by line with apparent scripture parallels as a side project.

>virtuous pagans
Socrates claimed he had a "daimon" who would prod him toward intellectual and religious inquiry. It wouldn't surprise me if Lao Tsu had a similar experience.

>>19963016
>>19963026
Religion is defined by idol worship.

>>19968060
I think Legge was probably a Christian, he might have been influenced by that in how he understood the Chinese text, you might compare other translations too.

>>19968089
That's not implausible. He was a missionary and translated the Chinese classics into English so that other missionaries could comprehend Chinese culture and ideas. He also argued that "Shangdi" (a Classical Chinese title for the supreme deity) represented a monotheistic God and would be an appropriate term for Bible translations into Chinese.

That being said, I have read from other academic translations online and find that most of the parallels remain.