/lit/ - Literature

the plane scene

>>19936991
Yes, plenty of good stories have been told through movies, videogames, anime and manga.
But this isn’t the board to talk about such things.

>>19936991
>are dere good books outside o books?
I guess.

>>19936991
Mr. Janitor said we're not suppose to make generals anymore!

>>19937005
>videogames, anime and manga

Bioshock

>>19937005
No good stories have been told through games, anime, or manga. Maybe movies if you go back far enough.

>>19937283
>>19937175

>>19936991
I want to intimacy with the blue haired girl

>>19937005
>videogames, anime and manga
Ew

>>19937394
wdhmbt?

>>19937160
>>19937283
>>19937407
I'm not up to date on vidya but I thought both Heavy rain and Silent hill had good stories

>>19937418
>Heavy Rain
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy44s_de15Y

>>19937408
Handholding and eskimo kisses mostly... mostly.

>>19936991
Yes, of course. Many great stories have been told through animation, comic, and film.

Yes

>>19937283
MGS2 BOF4 Suikoden 2

SUGMA

>>19936991
Well, film obviously.

It's amazing that no one even tried to write an interesting or meaningful interactive novel. A videogame, I mean

>>19938064
I thought losing your grip was good

>>19937283
>>19937407
Dark Souls, FLCL, and Akira respectively.

>>19936991
Yes, you'd have to be an actual idiot to think audio, visual, or audiovisual media don't have the ability to do that.
There's songs that can invoke an almost spiritual state of being in a few minutes, paintings that can imprint entire worlds in a single frame, and films that can immerse and stimulate your senses in ways you never would have imagined reading a book.
If anything you can improve your reading experience by expanding your sensory library with other media and recalling elements of them when reading stories.

I hate art elitists. Specially book and movie elitists.

What matters is the piece in itself, not the medium. Not every book is art, not every movie is art, not every video game is art, but some are.

Videogames, anime, manga, can explore a variety of themes, and do things unique to the medium. Specially videogames.

>>19938724
the medium absolutely matters since it offers different possibilities for storytelling and different challenges in telling a good story. a large part of why videogames are so expensive and yet so sought after is that it cant just rely on a good story. it also needs to engage the audience through its audio, music, visuals, and gameplay. its frankly a better medium for storytelling than a mere book which often tells a very linear story while videogames can offer an environment for the player to create their own stories.

this is why books cant compete with games or movies or even anime in today's market. it's an antiquated medium with large limitations.

>>19938801
Books definitely aren’t antiqued. It’s very effective for depicting thing beyond comprehension. Taking advantage of the imagination. Every other medium except maybe music is worse at this

Yeah
>>19936991

I can fix her.

>>19937005
>movies
yes definitely
>videogames
lol no
>anime
most definitely not
>manga
99% pure garbage 1% good

>>19939103
trash taste

>>19938801
A linear story gives precise control over the experience. That adds a lot of power.
In a sandbox the story is crafted by the player. Most players aren't very good at creating stories.
A story that's gradually explored adds headaches about experiencing things out of order and missing crucial pieces. One experience can no longer safely build on another. I think Outer Wilds is a good example: it's an amazing game, but some orders of discoveries degrade it, and the alien personalities fall flat because everything is so scattered.
In a branching narrative not every setup can be guaranteed its payoff.
Some of my favorite video games have a linear narrative, or no narrative to speak of.
Even a linear narrative is harder to control in a video game than in a book or a movie or a comic strip. There are many stories for which a video game is not a suitable medium.

>>19939247
>There are many stories for which a video game is not a suitable medium.
I feel like the same could be said for all mediums. Video games in particular are very hard to make especially with a good story so its more special when it succeeds. Movies are the best for telling stories generally, but there are certain things books will always do, and there are few things games can do to enhance a story

>>19937005
As an avid anime consumer, I have to concede that even the best stories (by general consensus or the ones I hold dear) pale in comparison with the great works of literature. But then again /lit/ has existed for a few thousand years and the other mediums have been created recently and funded by capitalism. What sells is good, that's why there are 999 isekai made per year and maybe a few more serious anime, but out of those many are just not that good.

>>19939263
Anime isn't really considered high art. Manga can be better but I don't think any has reached the level of classic novels yet.
Video games though, it's hard to rank them. Of course shit like The last of us is mediocre in the literature world but how do you rank something like Mario Odyssey, ICO, Doom,... can they be among the greatest art works ever created?

>>19939280
>Mario Odyssey, ICO, Doom
I've played none of these (much), but at least Mario Odyssey and Doom seem like cases where story and ideas are wholly subservient to the gameplay. Most people who think chess is great don't claim that the board game itself is a work of art, and so I wouldn't compare them to literature either.
For me the prototypal video-game-as-art is Universal Paperclips. It conveys ideas through abstract gameplay in a way that's impossible in any other medium. It's clearly art and clearly a video game with no way to separate the two.

>>19939331
You can say that Mario Odyssey gives the audience the feeling of joyfulness that no book can. Not every piece of art has to convey some ideas, most people agree that Schubert Piano sonata D960 is a masterpiece even though it doesn't really mean anything

>>19939280
Videogames are just not a great medium to tell stories. They work best when they provide templates for the player to use their imagination, such as Etrian Odyssey.
That being said, as >>19939348 said, videogames can reward you with beauty, which is valuable in and on itself, and in that sense I suppose you could call them art.

>>19939386
It is possible to tell a story effectively through gameplay alone. If you look at stuff like Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Hollow Knight you can see how games have the potential to effectively tell stories, it's simply that games are still an extremely young medium

>>19939402
>it's simply that games are still an extremely young medium
I would even say its because they’re very young, its just that almost all triple a games and games from bigger studios just want to make money, they dont have the balls or talent to truly innovate so they just regurgitate samey shit that rips off mediocre movies

Could we say that sports are art? There is definitely a narrative, there is a tradition... Perhaps it is the only medium that, despite its limitations, continues to produce geniuses that are completely different from the rest.. Well. No. It's not art. Neither are video games.

>>19939402
>it's simply that games are still an extremely young medium
Except most games renowned for their good stories are old (Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Chrono Trigger) and RPGs to boot.

>>19939465
Videogames are like a combination of toys, sports, and art. It's hard to define them as >>19939280 said. Are RPGs and say, fighting games, the same medium at all?

>>19939103
Good taste.

Yeah unsounded is strangely good.

>>19939103
Heard you were talking shit like I wouldn't find out

>>19937283
Manga has far better stories than Movies and modern literature

>>19939103
Absolutely horrible taste

>>19940007
Where do I start?

>>19940031
Mushishi, Vagabond, Akagi, 20th century boys.

>>19938958
post more jinx

>>19939280
>Anime isn't really considered high art
If things like Ping Pong the animation, Memories, Sangatsu no Lion, Perfect Blue etc, aren't considered high art, then high art is a meme. There is beauty that can be captured in animation that can't be captured in any other medium.

>>19940076
>musishi
Mushashi the book was better than that garbage.

>>19940138
Did you mean Vagabond? Cause Mushishi has nothing to do with Musashi. If it is Vagabond, I disagree, the manga has far more value in art than the book has in prose which is mostly equivalent to the manga anyway. It's also picks for beginners regardless.

>>19940083
I've got punished or happy Jinx.

>>19940178
Both will do just fine

It is important to consider that technically speaking, literature is extremely easier to produce compared to videogames. To write you just need a pen and paper, whereas for videogames you need a lot more of equipment (computer, engine, etc), and a team of professionals.

If games were as easy as writing (technically speaking) we would see a lot more variety and innovation. This is an important factor to consider in this discussion

such a cute tummy

Watch Higurashi

>>19940964

Yes.

Playing video games because of muh story or muh graphics is the cancer that killed vidya. The only games I have played in the last 10 years are postal 2, terraria, stardew valley, and tropico 4 because they're actually games.

>>19940964
The new one?
How is it

>>19941000
No, the original and the OVAs
>how is it
I'm only two episodes in, I haven't gotten to where it diverges yet and I'm taking a break to watch something other than subversive actual little girls cartoons. The different art style was an atrocious choice

Yes, but also no. There are few other stories that end up in other mediums which did not start as literature.

>>19941022
And I don’t mean book adaptations. I mean things such as scripts and screenplays.

>>19940872
There are very many single-author video games. Some of them are even popular! See Baba Is You, or A Short Hike, or Terry Cavanagh's work, or Braid. Usually there are one or two others involved for art and music, but I'm not sure that's what makes it prohibitive.
Computers are ubiquitous and many engines are free. You have to learn a lot, but I'm pretty sure that learning good design takes more effort than learning basic programming, and learning good design is in the same category as learning how to write well.
Experimentation is there if you're willing to go look for it. There are over half a million games on itch.io. To the extent you can make this comparison at all I'd say there's more variety and innovation in video games than in literature because the medium is inherently very versatile. (This comes at the cost of depth. Literature gets to keep digging in the same spots.)

You've noticed a real thing, but it's not that you need many people, it's that you can use many people at all. One person can write a novel and one person can create a video game, but adding more people to a novel doesn't help much while a video game can easily be worked on by hundreds.
That sets the bar higher. If adding more people to a game makes it better then the best games will be made by more people.
But you can simply choose to play one-man projects. It's up to you.

>>19941022
>There are few other stories that end up in other mediums which did not start as literature.
Off the top of my head pulling just from movies I like that come to mind immediately
>Melancholia
>The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
>Predator
>Man Bites Dog
>Raising Arizona
>The Place Beyond the Pines
>Five Easy Pieces
none of these are based on literature

>>19941030
>Oh and now that I realize I'm a fucking idiot, let me pretend to be an insufferable asperger
unironically and genuinely kill yourself moron

>>19941030
Are those actually good qua literature?
If not then they don't count as a win for literature.

>>19936991
Most mediums, only if they offer something different than literature like comics, games, and film

>>19937418
>but I thought both Heavy rain and Silent hill had good stories
Because you're an effeminate sentimental male.

>>19939587
>DUDE sex monsters!!!! sexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsex!!!!

>>19936991
What if I told you that it could even become literature?

Would you take the red pill, or persist in your delusion?

>>19937005
>movies, videogames, anime and manga.
RESPECT THE OXFORD COMMA.

>>19941754
There's not one single comma faggot on this site that gets any pussy. And I'm talking about you carpet-munchers in particular. You know exactly who you are

>>19939247
while i agree with a lot of what you say, i think its a bit too bold to claim the stories that people create in games are subpar since there's no real way of gauging that objectively. are you judging the story based on the depth of its ideas or the enjoyment gained from it?

i think people greatly appreciate the stories they create in videogames since aren't as reliant on living vicariously through the main character, but instead makes them the main character, creating a deeper connection to the narrative. even simple experiences like going 40-0 in call of duty or landing a lucky shot in battlefield sticks with the player since it's a story made almost entirely by themselves, through their own efforts, against the odds stacked against them.
it's like the difference between reading about an event and actually living through it.

>>19938724
>What matters is the piece in itself, not the medium
Yeah but each medium has its own strengths and weakness that affect the piece. I wouldn't say they're all created equal, but all have the capacity for greatness.

>>19940007
at least you said 'modern' literature. A friend of mine told me that animanga was peak art and that literature as a medium cannot produce masterpieces, and if you give a book a score higher than 7 then you are pretentious and a pseud

>>19937175
>Bioshock
>Le no good no masters
The only ones that think Bioshock have anything else than a decent setting are the same ones that think that Objectivism isn't a meme ideology, so awkward teens.
>>19938395
>FLCL
lol
>Akira
Merely a flashy but well crafted spectacle

we agree in DarkSouls, but only the first one.

I've found good literature in visual novels, some of them know how to build a good atmosphere but you have to be selective.

>>19941793
>I wouldn't say they're all created equal, but all have the capacity for greatness.
Well, thanks for that.
Please to provide the medium in which artists may flourish in the coming environment.
I'll hang up and listen

>>19941788
Yeah, there's definitely something to that. It adds something you can't get anywhere else.
But at the same time it removes things you can get elsewhere. I think video game storytelling is worse along the axes of traditional storytelling, but not worse overall, just different. One doesn't obsolete the other.

>>19941926
>I think video game storytelling is worse along the axes of traditional storytelling, but not worse overall, just different.
what means this? please tell. We all want to know

>>19941994
Just >>19939247. Some staples of traditional storytelling are harder to pull off in a video game.

>>19937005
>>19937160
>>19937283
>>19939103
manga is a definite yes
The rest are iffy. The difference is that, both literature and manga are created by one person and contain very few elements (drawing and writing for one and just writing for the other. And drawing doesn't even matter that much.
While movies, videogames and anime are a whole group of people with conflicting views, differing skills levels, etc, etc, and the mediums have many more elements to them, all which if any one of those goes wrong can interfere with the storytelling process. And then there's the difference in expense.

>>19942284
Stardew Valley was created entirely by one guy

>>19942284
What about having multiple authors to a story makes it worse? You could say "many chefs spoil the broth" but something like the early Simpsons has it's specific charm because it was made by a group of passionate people trying to create something special

>>19936991
I always thought the red dead redemption games were really well written. Probably my only favorite fiction written outside of books. I think the kid jack writes a book about the story too in the game.

>>19942459
watch Treasure of the Sierra Madre and True Grit tbphqy

>>19942493
Yeah I’ve been wanting to watch that after I played new vegas. I guess fallout New vegas would be another good one.

>>19941826
>Merely a flashy but well crafted spectacle
That's underselling Akira a lot, to the point where I don't think you really understand the art of comic making in general.
From Panel to Panel it's masterfully crafted and far ahead of its time.
Same goes for FLCL but with animation.

>>19936991
I think why people value literature is that it's the most feasible way for an author to communicate they're artistic vision to the world, in a way most other mediums don't, but it's not like there aren't ideas that can't be communicated in words, like pictures or gameplay

Ok then how about comics, you have pictures to convey ideas that could be properly and timely explained in words, but maybe the author wanted it to be paced and sound a certain way, then you'd go to animation or film, but of course that takes time and money, which means you'd need a team and then lose that specific artistic vision

Of course there are some works that reach that oh so desired authorial individuality, and if that's what you desire then seek out those works, but I'm sure most people might like things made by a group

At least to me, I come to fiction to experience communication, it doesn't really matter who is saying it (I mean do you know Dostoevsky? You've never talked to him have you?), and how I interpret the communication is a large factor in how I enjoy the works

And it's not like there's an objectivity to any work of communication, we don't even know if we see the same red as the person next to you, which means that the communication can expand into ways that aren't able to be conveyed with words

What i'm trying to say is that these other mediums aren't valuable in what they say, but rather how they say it, the paneling of One Piece, the atmosphere of Silent Hill, the movement of Gurren Lagann, the gameplay of tetris, the cinematography of No Country For Old Men, and the prose of Ulysses

And books can 100% do things that only books can, which is why I still read literature, but i'm just saying that judging non-literary works by literary standards
>Isolates only a certain aspect of that work (themes, dialogue, plot, ect) while discarding all other communication which occurs
>Make literature superior as an art form (I could just read Nietzsche instead of this, and there's no shame in doing so)

>>19936991
Fallout New Vegas
>inb4 /v/ contrarians pretending to hate the game now that it's popular, I hate that board so fucking much

>>19936991
Yes, but this is purly because of gantz

>>19942616
i think this is something we understand innately, but dont acknowledge consciously when we enjoy works from any medium. imo the comparisons dont really serve a purpose beyond creating petty and meaningless hierarchies within the minds of elitists.

I dont know why it took me so long to realize, but "gamers" have horrid tastes when it comes to other media

>>19941696
Sounds like someone needs some

>>19937283
>What is Berserk

>>19943839
anyone who disagrees with you (and they crawl out of the woodwork on this board)
sped read and gave up at the lolboat

>>19942616
You don't read.
>>19943784
Cope. Silent Hill is Satanic Freudian trash.

video games are a very worthless medium. no one who plays video games has anything of value to say.

>>19942284
Most anime is just adapting manga. Saying manga has good stories but not anime makes no sense, unless you think only the good manga haven’t been adapted yet.

>>19944493
video games are fun for the concept of actual gameplay, trying to make them into muh story telling or muh graphics is what killed video gaming. They're the best when it's boiled down to actual game mechanics with minimal story and graphics don't matter
>twitch arcade FPS
>platformers
>strategy
are the purist form of video game. As I said earlier the only games I play are Postal 2, Terraria, Stardew Valley and Tropico because they are actually games and don't try to be movies or literature.

>>19944447
Cram it churchie

Kek at all the weebs from /a/ infesting this board to defend their precious mangos. If you can point to me one manga that matches Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, or Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Proust, etc, then I’ll happily change my opinion. Otherwise anime/manga is YA fiction-tier at best. I’ve read a few highly acclaimed ones and they were all garbage.

>>19944538
Houseki no kuni, Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, and Ashita no Joe
You can thank me later