/lit/ - Literature

Why have you named yourself after a deceptive gag of Odysseus if you're Quran posting? I think I know who you are

>>19914354
I have used this handle long I started before Quran posting anon

>>19914366
so you are a convert, or better: revert to islam?

>>19914372
Yeah

>>19914377
kannst du deutsch?

>>19914404
No

>>19914428
ah well, carry on. good thread.

>>19914437
Cheers

>>19914372
>>19914404
>>19914437
holy fucking cringe. kill yourself.

>>19914316
>Straight path is to follow the Sunnah
Source of the term Sunni

>>19916538
Yes, and while “people of the Sunnah” (and note the word for “people” in this phrase is اهل which is the term for adherents but family as well, thus the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم true اهل is on the straight path, those who go off it are not his family, see 11:46, also claiming the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as a father is not allowed see 33:40). Also one can be “more” Sunni or “less” Sunni. Ultra Sunni is sometimes called Wahhabism though obviously Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab didn’t invent it or even introduce it he was just an effective champion of it because he wrote very simple and digestible books for popular consumption and had a very effective style. He kind of started at a time before the Arabic printing press was available so he wrote brief works and had them copied and widely available which gave him a big advantage at a time when most men could not afford Islamic books because they were so expensive

Shia will assert that to preserve this straight path we are entrusted with leadership to guide us from ongoing descendants of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and we would never be left without such a guide, sort of like a Pope. The problem with this is though Sunnis actually revere the first eleven of the twelve Shia do, we don’t believe the 12th existed at all. And furthermore if the point of these imams is that we would not be left without their special leadership, why has the last one been in silent hiding for hundreds of years? Obviously this means we’ve been left without leadership for this period so the whole argument for a Muslim pope collapses. Imagine if the Catholic Church discontinued the papacy hundreds of years ago and said they have a pope but he’s hiding—okay, then what’s the point? Why are you saying Christians need a pope to guide them if the pope isn’t guiding them?

>>19916538
Yes, and while “people of the Sunnah” (and note the word for “people” in this phrase is اهل which is the term for adherents but family as well, thus the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم true اهل is on the straight path, those who go off it are not his family, see 11:46, also claiming the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as a father is not allowed see 33:40). Also one can be “more” Sunni or “less” Sunni. Ultra Sunni (ahl al-hadith) is sometimes called Wahhabism though obviously Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab didn’t invent it or even introduce it he was just an effective champion of it because he wrote very simple and digestible books for popular consumption and had a very effective style. He kind of started at a time before the Arabic printing press was available so he wrote brief works and had them copied and widely available which gave him a big advantage at a time when most men could not afford Islamic books because they were so expensive

Shia will assert that to preserve this straight path we are entrusted with leadership to guide us from ongoing descendants of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and we would never be left without such a guide, sort of like a Pope. The problem with this is though Sunnis actually revere the first eleven of the twelve Shia do, we don’t believe the 12th existed at all. And furthermore if the point of these imams is that we would not be left without their special leadership, why has the last one been in silent hiding for hundreds of years? Obviously this means we’ve been left without leadership for this period so the whole argument for a Muslim pope collapses. Imagine if the Catholic Church discontinued the papacy hundreds of years ago and said they have a pope but he’s hiding—okay, then what’s the point? Why are you saying Christians need a pope to guide them if the pope isn’t guiding them?

>>19916864
How does someone who converts know if they shi’ite or sunni?

>>19914565
i need sex

>>19916864
I don't want to get into a long and pointless debate with you again, but I'll answer this one for the benefit of the lurkers. The point of the Imam is spiritual leadership, not political, and he doesn't need material presence for that. The Twelfth Imam is the Mahdi--he will remain hidden, until by God's leave, it is time for his uprising. The Imam is not like a Pope. He is the direct link of God and man. He is chosen by God Himself, is given innate knowledge by Him, is instructed to carry out His Will, and he has metaphysical existence close to the Prophet (sawa). Sunnis barely know about the Imams maybe except the first three (Ali and his sons, a.s.), and even then they pray for and revere their sworn enemies like Muawiyah. Reverent indeed.

During the time of the 11th Imam, Hasan al-Askari (a.s.), the Abbassid caliph had put a lot of pressure on him. He basically lived most of his life imprisoned in a military camp because the caliph feared the Imam might start a rebellion (he had no such intentions). The Imam decided to hide his son, because he knew the caliph almost certainly was going to kill him. You say he never existed at all, can you prove it? You can't. That is, you can't prove Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.) didn't have a son whom he hid from Abbassid officials. All else is conjecture. "Yet they have no knowledge thereof. They follow naught but conjecture; and surely conjecture avails naught against the Truth." (Quran 53:28)

>>19917212
Compare the narratives. Read a book by Shi'i scholar and read some Shi'i hadith and decide for yourself. For the Shi'i side, I recommend the books "Shi'ite Islam" and "A Shi'ite Anthology" by Tabatabai (links below).
http://faculty.umsu.ac.ir/DownloadHandler.ashx?pID=33&sectionID=71&file=Shia-in-Islam+-+Copy.pdf&SectionType=DownloadList&FileID=26
https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-anthology-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-tabatabai

>>19917212
They use different shahadatan.

>>19917238
You need to hide coomer posts

>>19917292
Sunni epistemology subscribed to burden of proof. That’s actually critical in combating bid’ah

>>19917308
I’ve cited narratives by Shia scholars before on things, you completely through them out when they make you look bad without giving substantial reason.

>>19917292
Also if political leadership has nothing to do with it then why the fabricated beef over Ali? And a hy the actual beef over Husayn? Husayn wasn’t killed for seeking mere spiritual leadership but for political leadership (and Sunnis consider his position on that valid btw)

>>19917357
Spiritual authority is far more important than political authority, but the authority of the Imams includes both. Their authority is the same as that of the Prophet (sawa), who said, "whomever I am his master, then Ali is his master." As you know, during the Meccan period the Prophet (sawa) never made claims to politics, he was content if people would just become Muslims and worship God. He claimed his political authority only after Hijrah. That is similar with Imams. Although their wilayah is comprehensive, the priority is given to spiritual wilayah. Ali (a.s) decided to forego his right to succession because he was concerned more about people's religion than his own power. Husayn (a.s.) refused to make allegiance with Yazid and sacrified his life because Yazid was a decadent drunkard who would have ruined Islam forever had he remained in power. After the death of Husayn a.s. the Imams forego political leadership until the rise of the Mahdi, whose leadership will be both political and spiritual. These are all recorded in our narrations from the words of the Imams.

>>19917417
Obedience to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was required always he just didn’t make as many demands in Mecca be revelation for things like not drinking we’re not sent down

Husayn رضي الله عنه refused to submit to his political authority because he knew it was rightfully his. Yazid killed him for being a threat to his rule not out of envy for his spirituality

>>19917459
Likewise obedience to the Imams has always been required of their Shias.

Yazid killed him because he didn't make an oath of allegiance. He decided to fight Yazid's army to his own death along with his 72 remaining men rather than submit to Yazid.

>>19917499
So why are you trivializing politics when he died for them?

Slight correction: It's اهدنا الصراط المستقيم, not اهدينا. May Allah reward you.

I would like to bring up a topic, and that's present-day religious polemics. What is the deal, do you think, with those Muslim speakers in Hyde Park, who spend their entire day arguing with randoms on the street about what Allah has revealed? It seems like such sustained correspondence can only dilute one's akhlaq, which surfaces every now and then causing a scandal around them on twitter and other platforms. When another Muslim speaker points this out, like Saajid Lipham for instance, they are attacked for disuniting the Muslim Ummah, and for giving the disbelievers "something to rejoice about". And this is while they, themselves, make countless videos against SPUBS and "Super-Salafis", who they maintain as Muslim, but attack for their contagious iniquities. I have Muhammad Hijab in mind, someone who I could never dislike, but is so invested in his little online skirmishes that proper dawah can rarely be seen from him.

>>19917744
Husayn a.s. went into battle with 72 men against 12000 men. He clearly knew he was going to die and had no ambitions for power in this battle. He did it to avoid submitting to a drunkard "caliph" which would have legitimized his rule.

Is the Oxford translation of the Quran a good one?

Converts are by far the cringiest muslims.
If anyone with a genuine interest peruses this thread take this into consideration.
Ahadith are to be treated as (inaccurate) historical documents. They have been tampered with by the jews. Stick to the Quran. Find a mentor you can trust, personally.
>What's a good indicator for a suitable mentor?
Ask yourself two questions. Does He love Allah? Do you feel like Allah loves Him?

>>19918438
The capitalisation of pronouns in this post is not by accident. You will understand in time.

>>19917323
muhammad the beloved prophet and example to all mankind was a coomer though.

So why is Christianity considered /lit/? They vandalized classical works to write Bibles on and when it comes down to it the literary power of a work is expressed by how often long passages from it are memorized which is pretty much never done with the Bible. In fact I’m pretty sure more Christie on this board have read the entire Harry Potter series than the entire Bible

>>19917977
وإياك if I just said it aloud I probably wouldn’t have made that error

It’s a result of trying to abolish jihad

>>19918087
He was gathering men for revolt which is why Yazid attacked him. Husayn رضي الله عنه went down like a lion rather than surrender but his action was definitely political and in fact is used as the major argument by Sunnis who say it’s permissible to seize power by force from a tyrant, and Abu Hanifa held this position which is why he was poisoned in prison

>>19918315
Not a fan myself

>>19918438
The Quran says follow the Sunnah which I demonstrate in the OP

>>19918685
He prohibited looking at women you were not married to, owned or were closely related to

>>19917292
Mohammed was the last prophet and link between God and man.

>>19917417
This by the way makes no sense. Ali رضي الله عنه knew he was entitled to power but would never fight Abu Bakr, or Umar or Uthman رضي الله عنهم for it because he wanted to avoid a civil war—but in fact he did fight over it with Muawiyya رضي الله عنه so what are you talking about?

>>19917292
Yes yes we know you consider most of the Sahaba his sworn enemies. But how? Even Muawiyya رضي الله عنه he only fought briefly because the Muawiyya was concerned Ali would not bring Uthman’s رضي الله عنه killers to justice since Uthman was Muawiyya‘s kin and his killers were against Muwaiyya’s clan. Indeed Ali and Muawiyya رضي الله عنهما made peace and Muawiyya accepted Ali as khalifah. As a result those who hated Muawiyya killed Ali because they were angry at him for that

ay OP
I didn't get to ask
Assalamu alaikum btw
why is it Qurtubis principle that an aya should be assumed to be literal and only literal unless there is clear indication otherwise? I think the beginning in sura Nur, about lashing and so on, is a clear example of the Qur'an being abundantly clear that something should be taken literally:
>[This is] a sūrah which We have sent down and made [that within it] obligatory and revealed therein verses of clear evidence that you might remember.
>The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion [i.e., law] of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
- Saheeh international, 24:1-2
"clear evidence" and "do not be taken by pity" both seem to indicate that this absolutely should be taken literally, alhamdulillah. My point is: why would this need clarifying if the correct assumption is that everything is literal? This is an interpretation of course, I have not read the tafsir on Nur and I don't know, I'm really just asking if you know what that assumption is based on? Is there scriptural evidence or is it just "common sense"?

I like shaykh ibn Farooq by the way, suits me very well inshallah, alhamdulillah.

from last thread
>Abu Huraira reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, you are in a time when one who leaves a tenth of what he has been commanded is ruined. Then, there will be a time when one who practices a tenth of what he has been commanded is saved.”
from Tirmidhi, sahih according to Albani.
how would you factor this kind of thing into a choice to be salafi OP? If it is clear that the way we practice at least the non-fard parts of the religion Will change, then why be the most far-reaching revivalist? I understand we are all terrified of squandering the tradition, but it seems to me that can happen more ways than one (there are violent salafis where I live that threaten even regular, traditional sunnis). Wa Allahu al Aleem.

>>19919643
The keyword is "fight back." He wasn't going to start a fitnah but he wasn't going to back down like a coward when a greedy person rebels.
>made peace and Muawiyya accepted Ali as khalifah.
Revisionism. Muawiyyah never made peace with Ali. He even instituted a policy that required people curse Ali and his family which lasted with Umayyad's reign. Read this link and the sources it cites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_tradition_of_cursing_Ali

Why are you so eager to argue with me? Our sources of historiography are different. We could repeat back our different narratives ad infinitum to no result. If you are so eager to learn about Shi'ism, go read the books yourself. I'm not going to waste my time with you.

>>19919736
>there are violent salafis where I live that threaten even regular, traditional sunnis
This is the real reason he chose salafism. He just wants to larp as edgy and extremist.

>>19919321
>He prohibited looking at women you were not married to, owned or were closely related to
because he couldn't comprehend doing so without having the unstoppable urge to COOM COOM COOM

>>19919794
I think the point is that if you are not completely filled up with them already, you can actually notice, inshallah, the shayatin as they come and go. And chastity is very, very important, and so anything that aids chastity is sound.

>>19914316
Salam. Is it possible to be an autodidact student of knowledge? while also knowing very intermediate arabic?

>>19919846
>anything that aids chastity is sound.
possibly within some reason and weighed against other values: I'm not qualified to give a blanket statement like this.

>>19919721
وعليكم السلام ورحمة وبركاته

The Quran describes itself as moobeen (clear, straightforward) over and over. Hence presumption that a verse is moobeen rather than otherwise. The Quran also describes verses as being ambiguous but when it does it refers to them as what’s an exception rather than a norm. The rule throughout all sciences of Islam is that when there is a general it is taken for granted and exceptions have to proven, this is actually fundamental to the Arabic language that generalization is total except for specified exceptions, this the Shahada there is no god but Allah doesn’t mean there is pretty much or mostly no god but Allah, it means there is absolutely no god but Allah is then listed as an exception and it is not possible to presume any other exception. That’s how it works in all matters, this is the general and it is taken as absolute except for what is individually singled out. Verses which are exceptions to literal or otherwise are singled out. If that were not the case we’d have to presume non literal and ambiguous is the default and the exception of clear is singled out but that’s the opposite of what the Quran says

Sometimes scholars differ on exception versus general. Abu Hanifa for example says every verse which addresses the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم also applies to all Muslims as injunction or otherwise unless proven to apply only to him, whereas other scholars generally say verses addressed specifically to the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم only apply to him unless proven to apply generally. But which such verses are applied to, just him or him and everyone, are mostly clearly proven each individually so this disagreement is not practically speaking a big issue

>>19919736
That’s incorrect. Rather more leniency will be shown. But the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said we are obligated to convey his religion and revive his sunnan, therefore shrugging this off because of inevitability is not permissible. Indeed eventually even the Quran will be forgotten and people will forget everything except la ilaha il Allah and the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم will say they will only say it because their dads used to say it, but it’s narrated they will be saved due to leniency. This doesn’t mean we neglect our religion. Even the Ka’ba will be destroyed eventually as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said.

And today we do not really practice one tenth. Take a moderate book of practice from any school, it should be maybe one volume. How many of us practice one tenth of it? If you want to see just how woeful our state is, check out the Refinement of Character is which is one volume of an abridgment of an abridgment of Ghazali’s Ihya. It’s available as a pdf. You will see more than 90% of practice is neglected . So yes revival is necessary and obligatory

>>19919850
No

>>19919738
Because you bs. I mean, you just said he wasn’t a coward and wouldn’t back down so why do you make up that Umar broke into his house and beat up his wife and get he surrendered?

>>19919846
no such thing as a shayatin.
>anything that aids chastity is sound
based ritual self-castrator.

>>19919854
>being ambiguous but when it does it refers to them as what’s an exception rather than a norm.
does it? the only place I know is 3:7 which describes clear verses as the "mother of the book". that in itself does not seem to literally mean anything pertaining to quantity. One could clearly make the argument that the clear verses are, simply, surat al Fatihah, it seems. Saheeh international only translates "umm" as "foundation" once. As "mother" well over 20 times. Surely an expression could be used with less duality when speaking of how and what to take literally? But there could be other Qur'anic evidence, I only know of 3:7 relating to this.

>>19919738
I looked at your article and it’s ridiculously biased, “lacked Islamic legitimacy “? According to whom besides the Shia abd khawarij? Why would Muawiyya need to curse Ali for his rule? He didn’t overthrow Ali, he made peace with him and after Ali was assassinated he went to war with those who killed him. The only source given there’s which I deem remotely credible is Tabari and history uses a lot of fabricated and weak Hadiths (being written for scholars it is meant to be exhaustive and repeats their chains and variations, everyone agrees it is full of fabrications as Tabari himself does often noting when they are, the narration that Muawiyya cursed Ali as a public ritual is very stupid on its face and we consider the chain very brittle; Yazid did this because after he assumed power he had a dynastic struggle against Ali’s family. Muawiyya did not have any such struggle, rather he assumed power after making peace with Ali and the civil war he fought thereafter was against the khawarij who considered Ali and apostate and has killed him)

>>19919914
Read "The Succession to Muḥammad" by Wilferd Madelung.

>>19919911
Umm and its uses are available in any lexicon on Classical Arabic or tafsir by Ibn Kathir, Tabari or Qurtubi. Umm is used by the Arabs to refer to something that is a source or gathered around, the Umm of an army refers to its flag. The skin that surrounds the brain is called its umm. It’s not that complicated and quite clear in context. This is not a figurative usage but an everyday Arabic usage of the word.

>>19919854
>That’s incorrect. Rather more leniency will be shown. But the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said we are obligated to convey his religion and revive his sunnan, therefore shrugging this off because of inevitability is not permissible.
this seems sound. what worries is overmuch struggle for outward form, and this then, as I said, becoming violent. I know people who don't want to go to Mosques anymore. It's tense. They're regular muslims. I don't see that this achieves much. There's this overarching "rahma" that seems to get lost. Somewhat like this
>The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah: and Allah guides not people who do wrong.
Yusuf Ali, 62:5
I think when the Qur'an speaks of Jews, at least sometimes they are taken as an exemplary warning. The Jews held on to the law, meaning they carry the full weight of their books, but they did not recognize 'Issa, as, who expressed the true spirit of that law.
And God knows best the interpretation of the signs.

>>19919924
Why exactly would I consider him more sound than Muslim scholars who devoted far far far more energy and seriousness to this?

>>19919942
Sounds anecdotal and quite dubious. Most Salafis are sadly quietist and believe in strict adherence to secular law

The Jews neglected their law, that’s why they got upset when Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم told them stoning was in it, He cursed the Jews specifically because they snaked around their law

>>19919937
can you give an example of how the Qur'an would demonstrate clearly that a verse is not to be taken literally?

insidâdü babi’l-ictihad has permanently ruined islam and turned it into an obsolete mass of interpretations and hadiths. any muslim who tries to glorify a bunch of good conduct rules based on 6th century should be considered as a homeland security-tier threat.

But it's always easier to fool these gullible people who has literal no knowledge of Islam or either learned it from some Sufi new age asshat.

>>19919954
but would you agree on any level that there can arise a legalism that smothers rahma completely? a vanity, or perhaps even aggressive vapidity? I understand there can be no real rahma without the law, and that the law is immeasurable mercy.. I feel squeezed between two camps desu, one of pure batiniyya, who are lost, and one of pure zahiriyya, who are not nice; neither of which seems sound.

>>19919963
The Quran uses a form of the word مثل most of the time to refer to figure of speech. The first two words of 2:17 is an example

>>19919991
interesting. thank you. Jazakallah khayr.

>>19919987
Islamic law is a lot simpler than secular law. If you care about Islam you devote more time to perfecting it. But obviously doing this without tazkiyah will have negative repercussions and the clearest will be that you are quick to anger and not gentle where’s the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said strength is in controlling your anger and the Quran says to him if you were harsh they would not have followed you. We are not angry or harsh but we must be conscientious

>>19919987
Forgive me for intruding in your discussion, but Shi'ism is supposed to integrate both zahir and batin. According to Shi'ism, there can't be no real batin of the religion if it weren't for the structure provided by the sacred law, and on the other hand the zahir only functions as a way to open the door to the batin.

>>19920013
وإيك

>>19920022
*وإياك

Sorry I’m shopping and was phone posting

I get the Islamic argument for five prayers a day but I struggle with the idea of how Muslims make sure those prayers are meaningful and not just following a routine they're not putting their heart into

>>19920443
Read the Inner Dimensions of the Prayer. Also each prayer what you recite is passages from the Quran which you select, you have taken the time to memorize them and they have meaning for that among other things. I’m always trying to memorize more Quran and so I’m frequently introducing new passages into my prayers to contemplate

>>19918438

>Converts are by far the cringiest muslims.

That's because most converts stumble upon Islam throug autistic salafist propaganda and mimic their cringe.

The converts that actually find the religion and study it through the lens of classical Sunni orthodoxy are actually quite based. Some of the older converts (guys like Tim Winter at Cambridge) are incredibly based.

Then again, guys of that generation were able to study with traditional teachers in the Middle East, teachers that simply aren't alive anymore. Converts today are watching Salafi dawah videos on youtube and parroting them like idiots

>>19920708
I'll get around to buying a copy of it. Prayer is something I've always struggled with regardless of religious tradition.

>>19920788
Do most convert through Salafist stuff? I know seeing Shia converts isn't that common but I didn't think the wider Sunni

>>19920934
Saudi has been spending insane money to promote Salafism.

>>19920788
Is this the same Timothy Winter who praised the Tanzimat (which legalized homosexuality) and called Bush’s invasion of Iraq righteous jihad then said those who disagreed are “reactionary Salafis” (which would include all four of the imams)?

https://unity1.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-and-rights-of-muslim-women/

This really your idea of classical jurisprudence?

I recommend the Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, a classical book on jurisprudence which compares all the schools on multiple issues. It’s by Ibn Rushd. You might be shocked to find classical thought even of people like Ibn Rushd is more “Salafi” than trad. Let’s not forget Al-Ghazali endorsed vigilante shariah and jihad

>>19920945
Does Iran do the same thing to promote Shia stuff?

>>19921047
Iran is under heavy economic sanctions. They are barely scraping by. Most of the money that they do have they spend on their military.

everything you need to know about islam

>>19921135

>>19920945
Saud doesn’t promote Salafism anymore except Madkhalism and even that they’re phasing out, they did back in the 1990’s. MBS is the current ruler and is trying to liberalize and secularize

>>19921083
They are spending tremendous money to support Shiasm in Yemen, Syria and Iraq and their military budget including for paramilitaries is for that end mostly. They also spend a lot to promote it in Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and elsewhere

>>19919854
Salam, thanks for doing this,
> And today we do not really practice one tenth. Take a moderate book of practice from any school, it should be maybe one volume. How many of us practice one tenth of it?

Genuinely wondering what are the things that we no longer do, any simple examples?

Also, what do you think of the fact that we are living in a different time: there is no more land of the muslim(khilafah), everywhere I go all I see is just sex and more sex at my job/school(women dressed to max out attention). it’s indeed a tough time to be male, single and living in a western country.

this thread has nothing to do with /lit/. it's pure proselytizing.
jannies are trannies and allow browncels to post anything they want.

>Abu Musa reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, the parable of the guidance and knowledge that Allah Almighty sent with me is the likeness of rain falling upon the earth. Among them is a good group which receives the water and thus there is abundant growth of herbage and grass. Among them is a barren land which retains the water and thus Allah benefits people from it; they drink from it and graze their animals. And it falls upon another group which is only abysmal; it does not retain water, nor does herbage grow. Such is the parable of one who understands the religion of Allah and benefits from what Allah sent with me; he learns and he teaches. Such is the parable of one who does not raise his head and does not accept the guidance Allah sent with me.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 79, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2282

Would a thing like this factor into how you understand the Qur'an OP? Rain features very heavily, of course, and here is a hadith that is very clearly sound where the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, explains that rain is a parable.

عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِنَّ مَثَلَ مَا بَعَثَنِيَ اللَّهُ بِهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ مِنْ الْهُدَى وَالْعِلْمِ كَمَثَلِ غَيْثٍ أَصَابَ أَرْضًا فَكَانَتْ مِنْهَا طَائِفَةٌ طَيِّبَةٌ قَبِلَتْ الْمَاءَ فَأَنْبَتَتْ الْكَلَأَ وَالْعُشْبَ الْكَثِيرَ يَرْفَعْ وَكَانَ مِنْهَا أَجَادِبُ أَمْسَكَتْ الْمَاءَ فَنَفَعَ اللَّهُ بِهَا النَّاسَ فَشَرِبُوا مِنْهَا وَسَقَوْا وَرَعَوْا وَأَصَابَ طَائِفَةً مِنْهَا أُخْرَى إِنَّمَا هِيَ قِيعَانٌ لَا تُمْسِكُ مَاءً وَلَا تُنْبِتُ كَلَأً فَذَلِكَ مَثَلُ مَنْ فَقُهَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ وَنَفَعَهُ بِمَا بَعَثَنِيَ اللَّهُ بِهِ فَعَلِمَ وَعَلَّمَ وَمَثَلُ مَنْ لَمْ يَرْفَعْ بِذَلِكَ رَأْسًا وَلَمْ يَقْبَلْ هُدَى اللَّهِ الَّذِي أُرْسِلْتُ بِهِ

https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/09/07/parable-prophet-hidayah/

>>19922271
I encountered a saying from some leading Iranian figure that what they do with Hezbollah at least is they try to maintain a credible threat so that if they are invaded, they can rain hell on Israel. They view this as a matter of national security, according to this one source I can not provide you with but will here claim I read sometime 5 years ago or so. Take it or leave it. He said something like "If we lose Lebanon, then we lose Khuzestan" which is a southern province in Iran which afaik is not guarded by mountains as the rest of the country is, and which is very, very wealthy in oil.

>>19920986

>Is this the same Timothy Winter who praised the Tanzimat (which legalized homosexuality)

I've watched hours of his work and I've never seen him say this. There's also plenty of videos of him speaking about homosexuality. Source?

>called Bush’s invasion of Iraq righteous jihad

I call bullshit. Source?

>classical thought even of people like Ibn Rushd is more “Salafi” than trad.

Nonsense. Averroes was literally a Maliki jurist. Salafism rejects the mahabs.

>Let’s not forget Al-Ghazali endorsed vigilante shariah and jihad

yes, and?

>>19921135
>>19921142
Mudslimes really quiet when these screenshots drop.

>>19923151
I linked the source. Here it is again

https://unity1.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-and-rights-of-muslim-women/

Salafism is heavily influenced by Maliki jurisprudence, it’s estimated that 20% of Ibn Taymiyyah’s fatawa are dissenting from his school in favor of imam Malik’s opinion. And that said, Salafism does definitely not reject the schools, in fact the most popular Salafi book on fiqh is Zayd Al-Mustaqni which is the go to Hanbali work, it’s an abridgment of an abridgment of a work by Ibn Qudamah. Rather Salafis are overwhelmingly Hanbali and this article explains why
https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/hanabilah

If you listen to any Salafi lectures on jurisprudence past entry level you will see they reference all four schools along with the fifth, Zahiri, which they often rely on as well, Ibn Hazm and Shawkani being the most popular thinkers of it. Rather Salafis reject that schools are infallible and see it as obligatory for schools to go with what is correct and revise errors, as Hanbalis do. For example leather being haram to wear if it’s not from a halal slaughter was something the Hanbali school held which the other schools did not hold but as it turns out there is a major defect in the chain for the Hadith they used for this, therefore Salafis say we must correct this error and accept the opinion of the other schools.

Timothy Winter says vigilantism is extremist and this is not allowed and therefore groups like Al-Qa’ida he cites as an example of vigilantism (though if we look at the Distinguished Jurist’s Primer we see many jurists considered it permissible to burn or destroy civilian buildings of the enemy, Imam Malik held this opinion he just prohibited killing non combatants in cold blood but Imam Shafi’i said it is permissible to do so to anyone man who isn’t useful as a slave or ransom)

>>19922396
How many Muslims sit on the floor or even avoid taking loans with interest? The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said when you give up jihad and engage in trades meant to circumvent rules against usury and are content with commerce, Allah will humiliate you until you return to your religion

>>19922772
There are parables in many Hadiths and through the Quran but they’re indicated as such

>>19922782
It’s both trying to expand influence and trying to counter Israel

>>19923533
>There are parables in many Hadiths and through the Quran but they’re indicated as such
so a hadith of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, can not work as a grounds for understanding the Qur'an?

how is abrogation defended when there is no contradiction in the Qur'an?

>>19923546
Why do you say that?

>>19923553
Abrogation, naskh, in Arabic can be used to mean sublation and that’s how it works practically. For example the verse in Baqarah saying the believers spend out of their provision originally meant take care of their parents and kin and family and later meant needy in a general sense as well as zakah. The verse is said to be abrogated but obviously it’s not the sense of it suddenly became wrong just that its latitude changed

>>19923571
>Why do you say that?
that's what I took from what you said, that a hadith like this would not affect your understanding of "rain" in the Quran. Maybe this was a misunderstanding. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used the word that you said indicates a parable. He says rain symbolizes teaching and knowledge that the he has been sent with. So, in your view, can this statement be used for interpreting "rain" in the Quran? Things are supposed to be ayas, right? This seems like a pretty safe case of an aya, a sign, something which indicates more-than-immediate meaning.

>>19923571
>Abrogation, naskh, in Arabic can be used to mean sublation and that’s how it works practically.
it's been a long time now but if I remember correctly, the point when it becomes controversial is when verses favoring peace are effectively negated by those favoring war.

>>19923588
That’s not how principles of interpretation work. Telling a parable about rain doesn’t mean all references to rain suddenly become metaphor. The Quran uses actual rain making plants grow as an instance of beauty and mercy. This Hadith is rather explaining the theme of guidance in the Quran, using a parable of rain, not explaining the theme of rain in the Quran with a parable about guidance

>>19923596
The Quran is against war for greed and power and in favor of it for the sake of spreading Islam. Inviting and getting people to convert is a priority. Using jihad as just a pretense to make money is what causes Allah to end empires we’ve had

>>19923600
so the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, taught a parable which was not usable for the majority of the tradition (surely the Quran can be termed the major part of the tradition), and in effect went counter to it? I'm not sure although I admit I suspect I may have- not sure- encountered ahadith where the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is clear when he interprets an aya. But you have to agree it is on some level conspicuous that he would use a language about the Quran, from the Quran, which runs counter to the use of the same language in the Quran, because this goes against.. well what is the principle, really, in this case?

>>19923605
the Quran also says you can not use harsh language with non-believers, or criticize their faith, in case it drive them away. you also can not coerce them. how can war then be on the table?

>>19923533

>https://unity1.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-and-rights-of-muslim-women/

Couldn't find anything in this regarding the Iraq war.

>Salafism is heavily influenced by Maliki jurisprudence, it’s estimated that 20% of Ibn Taymiyyah’s fatawa are dissenting from his school in favor of imam Malik’s opinion

Irrelevant. Modern salafis try to inject Ibn Taymiyyah into their worldview because of his seemingly anti-tassawuf stances.

>Salafism does definitely not reject the schools, in fact the most popular Salafi book on fiqh is Zayd Al-Mustaqni which is the go to Hanbali work, it’s an abridgment of an abridgment of a work by Ibn Qudamah. Rather Salafis are overwhelmingly Hanbali and this article explains why

Salafis align themselves with the Hanbali school when its' convenient for them, that's all. If they were real hanbalis, they wouldn't need to differentiate themselves from ahlus sunnah wa jammah, which they absolutely do.

We clearly have differing views of Salafism. We can agree to disagree there.

>Timothy Winter says vigilantism is extremist and this is not allowed and therefore groups like Al-Qa’ida he cites as an example of vigilantism (though if we look at the Distinguished Jurist’s Primer we see many jurists considered it permissible to burn or destroy civilian buildings of the enemy, Imam Malik held this opinion he just prohibited killing non combatants in cold blood but Imam Shafi’i said it is permissible to do so to anyone man who isn’t useful as a slave or ransom)

Gonna need to read this primer. The problem is this: AQ and it's affiliates + Daesh are not representing an agreed upon caliphal state or Islamic polity. They are not representing a state military in the way that the Ottoman militaries or Abbasid militaries would. There is no Caliphate right now. According to rules of engagement, what AQ & friends are doing is technically vigilantism. Muslim governments over the centuries had to deal with vigilante movements that would cause chaos on the borders of their empires, for example. We saw this often in central Asia and North Africa.

I see we have different worldviews. I am Hanafi-Maturidi-Naqshbandi. The modern Salafi movement is a direct lineage of the Wahhabi movement in Arabia in the early 1800's. Muhammad ibn abd al-Wahhab called the Ottomans a pagan empire. He made takfir on normal Sunni Muslims. SOME Salafi scholars aligning with Hanbalis when its' convenient for them doesn't change the problematic DNA of this group.

>>19923692
>According to rules of engagement, what AQ & friends are doing is technically vigilantism.
ah but you forget, every single salafi is LITERALLY imam Ahmad being flogged, may Gods mercy be upon him. because imam Ahmad was right, so all stand-up-to-power is right.

proselytizing off-topic thread. do you get bullied too much when you post on /pol/?

>>19923692
What makes Ottoman era Islam different from what we see now?

>>19923955
I've heard from Jonathan Brown, who's a historian and a convert to Islam, that they secularised the judiciary, which lead to a great devaluation of traditional religious knowledge and, according to him, perhaps, the beginning of the proper degradation of the religion. Before being learned in the religion meant a degree of position in society, as you'd be a judge. After this, according to him, having your sons be learned was perhaps less attractive than having them be.. in STEM, basically. This appears to be a Major crisis in Islam today, that no-one really knows what to do with what used to be the most valued asset for all of us: knowledge.

>>19923955
>>19924197
however, this is very late in their history, second half of the 1800s I think. But that's the era they are discussing I'm pretty sure.

Ghazali is for visiting graves btw

>>19923692
You honestly haven’t read Ibn Taymiyyah or Salafi works. Much of Ibn Tamiyyah’s fatwas we’re not even printed but still in handwritten form until the 1960’s when Salafi scholars gathered from from all over.

I don’t know what you mean by real Hanbalis. Salafis use the term Ahlus Sunnah wa Jammah different than you do. To then it means the aqidah that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and his companions رضي الله عنهم were on. And in that sense they use it which is how Ibn Taymiyyah used it

You see Ghazali endorsed vigilantism as you agreed, so what’s the issue if AQ are vigilante? Also AQ in fact gave bayah to a certain *record stops* Hanafi-Maturidi emirate.

You literally haven’t read a single work or probably even a single word by MiAW and obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. All he did is propagate the positions of ahlul Hadith. He never had any conflict with the Ottomans


>>19924332
As is every scholar because it’s sunnah; the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم only forbade it in the beginning, once Muslim identify was established he advised visiting graves because it reminds us of death . The controversy is over making long journey or pilgrimages to graves because that’s a bid’ah. You can visit graves along a journey or in your town but traveling a long distance with the primary intention to visit one is a bid’ah

>>19921135
based. The dumbest religion. Can anyone name an intelligent muslim?

>>19923726
Imam Ahmad like most Salafis was extremely anti rebellion or Revolution despite the fact that he was pretty viciously persecuted for his theology . Revolutionary Salafism came mostly out of Qutb’s influence which helped revive Ibn Taymiyyah’s fatwas on revolution

>>19924887
>To then it means the aqidah that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and his companions رضي الله عنهم were on.
what is their source for making such a claim?

>>19924922
It’s uh in the word. Sunnah. Meaning the wont of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. People of Sunnah mean those who adhere to the practice and belief of the Sunnah

>>19924929
no I mean what textual sources do salafis use to back their aqidah if it is indeed different from that of other sunnis? what is salafi aqidah based on?

>>19924934
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Hadith

>>19924941
no- my point is: 1. does your aqidah differ from athari aqidah (I assume this is your starting point)? 2. if so: why?

>>19924954
There is no difference between Salafi aqidah and Athari aqidah and Hanbali aqidah and Ahl al-Hadith aqidah, this is a confusing easily cleared up here
https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/hanabilah

>>19924964
what is the origin of your claim that this was the aqidah of the Prophet, saws, and the salaf? I understand that part of the answer will be "because it is not full of greek philosophy", but that isn't a proof in itself.

>>19924968
This a bit of a bizarre question . I guess it depends on your epistemology. The presumption here is aqidah taken from the Quran and Sunnah is going to be the aqidah of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم because we are assuming he taught his own

>>19924976
I doubt ash'aris think they have an aqidah in conflict with Quran and hadith

>>19924989
That may be but not doubt they invented it. The Salafi contention isn’t even that they are wrong just that they speculate on certain things without basis from Quran and Sunnah which is considered inappropriate. Their wrongness or rightness on many things Salafis are agnostic on. But divine command theory and occasionalism are considered in conflict with Quran because it voids the content of many verses such as 16:65 (how could rain cause growth without efficient causation?) and 8:51 (it’s redundant for Allah to reassure us He’s just) and Ibn Taymiyyah notes this

>>19925015
what is the salafi position on the laws of Newton? since it isn't mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah we have to be agnostic on them?

>>19925015
are there many who are ma'arif among you?
btw, do you know that Ghazali also understands that there is a religion of the saintly, and a religion of the common? source for this: book 3 from the 'Ihya.

>>19925090
The laws of newton have nothing to do with aqidah anymore than calculus does. That’s not part of *religious* practices or beliefs. Unless you make it so but if you start teaching Newton as part of aqidah that’s going to cause a fuss just like if you started teaching aqidah in physics class. Science involves a very different epistemology that embraces speculation and constantly changing positions. Islamic doctrine by contrast is about recovering and preserving the teachings of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

>>19925133
I don’t know if there are because they don’t tend to brag about it because it’s not something you are supposed to share (as the Ihya says at the beginning) but Ibn Taymiyyah agrees and so do Salafis generally.

ar Rahman, ar Raheem.

>>19925142
what do you think is the fate of someone in the akhira who had a faulty aqidah?

>>19925135
and how is visiting graves from long distance bid'ah? if i wanted to do anything that the prophet presumably didn't do but also didn't forbid it's bid'ah?

>>19925135
also in that case philosophy should be permissible by salafis because it has its own epistemology and doesn't claim to be islamic doctrine

>>19925015
what do you think about a claim that the Qur'an meets a person at their level of understanding/where they are in life? it seems to me like you all lock yourself into the most basic interpretation because all could agree on it, so it couldn't be wrong. It does not seem to me that that is what the organic process of reading a book is like, least of all the Qur'an. I don't remember the Qur'an saying of itself that it should only be read with a copy of ibn Kathir in the other hand. It does say to go to people who know. Well, there are other people than ibn Kathir, and it seems you decide they don't know effectively because they conflict with him.

At the very least, consider: a brittish person will relate very differently to rain than an arab. So, he reads of rain in the Qur'an. What does it mean to him? Understanding has to do with experience, always, language is meaningless without experience and experience is organic. And God knows best.

>>19925175
Shi'ites report a hadith from the Prophet - peace be upon him - that the Quran has 7 layers. The last of which is only comprehensible by the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt, blessings of God upon them all.

>>19925148
Depends on how faulty it is and why it’s faulty (ignorance out of incapacity vs ignorance out of negligence vs willful ignorance) If it’s a kufri aqidah then we can be sure it’s hellfire

>>19925154
Bid’ah specifically relates to a *religious practice*. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم for example never taught us how to fly a plane and we don’t rely on him for instruction on how to do it. We do however rely on him for instruction on our religion. Something he explicitly forbade is haram but he explicitly forbade bid’ah which means adding practices or doctrines to Islam that he didn’t subscribe to. Now flying a plan, that’s not a religious practice per se.

>>19925173
Some philosophy is, philosophy only became objectionable to Muslims when it was used as a basis for deriving religious beliefs

>>19925175
Ibn Kathir has high regard because he relies a lot on hadiths but there are plenty of other mufassirun, Qurtubi is my favorite desu. Tabari is the most famous

We should try to understand the Quran like the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and his companions رضي الله عنهم did. This takes time and dedication

>>19925275
Most of Ahlul Bayt are Sunnis, are they included?

>>19914316
off topic religious preaching

>>19924887

Because Ibn Tamiyyah wasn't even a popular scholar until the Salafis finally found a guy that foamed at the mouth over Sufism, because they hated the fact that all of the classical Sunni scholars were also Sufis and considered Sufism to be a part of orthodox Sunni Islam.

Literally for centuries, to be a Sunni Muslim meant you followed a jurisprudential school (one of the 4 madhabs) A theology (maturidi/Ashari) and a sufi tariqa (Naqshbandi, mevlevi, Shadhili , etc)

>Salafis use the term Ahlus Sunnah wa Jammah different than you do

Yes, and they are misguided and historically illiterate for doing so.

>You see Ghazali endorsed vigilantism as you agreed, so what’s the issue if AQ are vigilante? Also AQ in fact gave bayah to a certain *record stops* Hanafi-Maturidi emirate.

Moving the goal posts.

>You literally haven’t read a single work or probably even a single word by MiAW and obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. All he did is propagate the positions of ahlul Hadith. He never had any conflict with the Ottomans

I don't need to nor do I want to, Alhamdulillah. I have countless testimonies of former salafis that studied the nejdi ideology and read his works.

>He never had any conflict with the Ottomans

This is a 100% lie, straight up. The Wahhabis revolted because of this. He considered the Ottoman Empire to be a pagan empire and committed takfir on them, straight up. This is irrefutable.

I invite you back to real Sunni Islam. Not a new, innovated sect that is synonymous with Saudi political movements on the 19th century. Even Saudis today are leaving Salafism because they see the error in it. I will pray for you

>>19925396
>Now flying a plan, that’s not a religious practice per se.
i didn't ask about flying a plane. i asked how is visiting graves from long distance bid'ah. if it's not said to be a religious practice there should be nothing wrong with it.
>>19925396
>Some philosophy is
early Ghazali said Ibn Sina is kafir because he believes God knows about the particulars through universals (although later Ghazalli took it back). obviously Ibn Sina didn't claim this is religious belief, nor did he claim it was based on Quran or Sunnah. but salafis will be driven insane if someone says something like that.

>>19925396
>Most of Ahlul Bayt are Sunnis, are they included?
If you count Ali and his sons - alayhimu salaam - as Sunni, then *sure*.

>>19925454
So Tabari and Ibn Hazm weren’t Sunni as they didn’t follow any of these?

Ibn Taymiyyah was a rockstar and so was Ibnul Qayyim. Ibn Kathir calls him Shaykh al-Islam for a reason

Wahhabi revolt as you put it obviously didn’t happen during MiAW’s lifetime. Stop clutching your pearls

>>19925472
What does Ibn Sina have to do with anything? Scholars have called him deviant for hundreds of years from all the creeds

>>19925497
Of course we do, and you have to unless you write his Hadiths as taqiyya

>>19925472
Traveling a long distance per se is not permissible in Islam without a valid reason. Doing it to visit a grave for secular reasons is not necessarily bid’ah tho

>>19925534
>What does Ibn Sina have to do with anything? Scholars have called him deviant for hundreds of years from all the creeds
Ibn Sina is relevant because he is a philosopher. is it kufr according to salafism if someone believes God has knowledge of particulars through universals?

>>19925534
>Of course we do
Is that why in Sunni rijal works a narrator is written to be reliable if he hates Ali and his family a.s.?

>>19925552
Philosophy speculation on aqidah is where philosophy is problematic as I said

It is potentially but obviously someone who said that would have to be asked to give detailed clarification of what they mean before one could say it’s kufr or not. It’s a foolish thing to say however no matter how it’s intended