/lit/ - Literature

>>19903799
well, that's something new, isnt it

>>19903799
isn't that how most medieval stories worth reading were written?

>>19903799
The combination of the stubborn spirit of the ancient northerners (Germans and Celts) and the Christian faith gave that "northern Christianity" of the early Middle Ages, which the Professor loved so much. He specifically wrote that he could not stand contemporary "Nordicism".

>pre-christian germanic folk lore
Almost everything we know about this is known to us from Christian writers. No, I do not want to say that this was not, but all the records were made by people who read the Bible, which could leave an imprint on what they wrote down.

>>19903971
>The combination of the stubborn spirit of the ancient northerners (Germans and Celts) and the Christian faith gave that "northern Christianity" of the early Middle Ages, which the Professor loved so much.
This is something I've thought about a fair bit, like how a great number of the runestones in Sweden, which holds a majority of all runestones in the world, were raised by christian norsemen. Do you know of any interesting books on the subject?

>>19903799
>pre-christian germanic folk lore

So countless other nameless people? Guy, no one person has rights to thousands of years of mythology. We're talking hundreds to thousands of individual persons influencing hundreds to thousands of later individuals persons. This isn't even a remotely good thread or argument.

What Amazon... Here we have people not even a century later attempting to butcher another's individual work.

>>19903971
Funny how Christians are rarely interested in telling any stories from their own mythology. If Tolkien loved Christianity so much he could have written a story about penis mutilation in the desert.

No, the good professor much preferred to parade around the spectre of old Germanic beliefs and hide his Christianity underneath it. It's what we call a subversion.

To be fair, there's not a whole lot of interesting stuff going on with Christianity, and Tolkien happily innovated. C.S. Lewis did too. The worlds they craft are "Christian" in so much as Jesus is a character, but Jesus as one of the many spirits that Catholic-Odin sung out of the aether (which also is apparently capable of giving birth to other things on its own) or as the lion-son of one deity out of many are pretty fucking divergent from what you'd get at church. It's closer to the genuine metaphysical and cosmological speculation of Classical Greece than the rigid dogmatism and pilpul of the Scholastics.

You can see similar radical speculation in the Protestant tradition on the U.S. East Coast. You know all the stupid shit in Mormonism, like the magic underwear, the Jesus-Satan sibling rivalry, Adam being Jesus being Yahweh, Kolob, etc? None of that is in the Book of Mormon, it's all just Anglo cosmological speculation.

>>19903799
friendly reminder that atheists and pagan larpers are unable to create any great works of art

>>19903799
>He wants to SELL his book
>In MY (((Christian))) Europe?!
His quote still stands true tho

>>19904112
Vedas and Eddas and Odysee are better than anything your Bible plagiarized from Plato. Also Dawkins selfish gene invented

>>19904134
...the word "meme"

>>19904112
friendly reminder that until the peasants in charge of decorating the churches took a page from the Greeks/Roman, their drawings were literally baby symbolic scribbling tier

>>19903822
No the best ones are about country priests banging farmwives in outhouses

>>19904155
Most advancements in perspective were developed in the Renaissance, as were most advanced use of pigments and textures especially in oils. Where did you get such embarassingly incorrect info that you pronounce it so confidently?

>>19903997
I can't tell - I've read interesting commentaries on the Edda, the Acts of the Danes and the life of Bede the Venerable, as well as a book on early medieval Ireland. I read in my native language (this is Russian), but I think there are hundreds of times more excellent books on this topic in English.

>>19904041
If you really knew and loved the Professor, you would know that his Legindarium naturally comes to the "necessity" of Christianity. Theologically, this is Christendom before Abraham, or even possibly before Noah. When God has not yet revealed himself, but in the world where monsters and heroes still live, a premonition of this Revelation is already hovering. Everything there demonstrates that the pagan world is doomed only to death and darkness. In a pagan world, Morgoth's victory is inevitable.
To be a pagan, one must look at the World differently, see not the integrity but a multitude of things, have the consciousness of an archaic person, where contradictory versions of one phenomenon can coexist in one head.
Christian "myths" were more or less handled by people like Dante and Milton. But it seems to me that there are more Christians in Tolkien's books than in all of them put together.

>>19904134
I said atheists and pagan larpers.
But yes, its nice that you recognize that Christianity took Greek culture to its height.

>>19904134
Vedas are pajeet shounen bullshit, Eddas were written by a Christian, Odysee is dull.
>Selfish Gene
Fucking midwit.

>rips most of his archetypes from pre-christian germanic folk lore
>>uses them to tell a christian story

>>19904041
>>19904044
>To be fair, there's not a whole lot of interesting stuff going on with Christianity,
Don't be a retard. The best medieval stories deal with Christian Cosmology and theology like The Perlesvaus.

Pre-Christian pagan literature is dull and repetitive.
>Thork use rock kill Druk. Fate curse Drok.
It needed Christian cosmology and thought to make something of it. This is why the literature of the High Middle ages which is more explicitly Christian is more appealing and deeper than it's predeccessors.

>>19904187
Christianity is degenerate slave morality. Good riddance to it.

>>19904044
>but Jesus as one of the many spirits that Catholic-Odin sung out of the aether
Are you actually retarded?
>or as the lion-son of one deity out of many
Oh, I guess you are. I'm sorry.

>>19904402
Heroes fighting monsters and killing them is a million times cooler than some dumbass carpenter being nailed to a block of wood.

>>19904404
>muh slave morality

>>19904413
>JUST LIKE MY MARVEL MOVIES

>>19904112
The Odyssey.
All those Roman and Greek statues
Parthenon
The Eddas
The Pyramids
Coliseum

>>19904422
Hell yeah. “Strong guy fights evil thing” makes for entertaining literature and entertaining cinema. What the fuck does Jesus fight? Nothing. He just gets killed.

>>19904423
>The Odyssey.
Shounen shit.
>All those Roman and Greek statues
Decoractio. The medieval period was more inventive.
>Parthenon
Outclassed by later Byzantine construction
>The Eddas
Written by a Christian.
>The Pyramids
>Coliseum
Not art, construction.

>>19904432
>buildings aren’t art
>Shounen is bad

>>19904430
>Hell yeah. “Strong guy fights evil thing” makes for entertaining literature and entertaining cinema

>>19904416
Christianity is slave morality. Nihilistic woke atheism is even more so, and descends directly from Christianity.

>>19904434
Yes.

>>19904432
cope, sneed, and feedate

>>19904439
This thing invented by freemasons and Jews to oppose Christianity descends directly from it.

>>19904441
Retard

>>19904437
Oooo you got me; depicting me as a basedjack.
Most popular movies for men are about direct physical conflicts.

>It's a "LARPagans make shit up about Tolkien and claim he was secretly one of them" thread
Read Tolkiens letters and his essay on Beowulf. He had an explicitly Christian outlook and his works owed as much to sacramental theology as they did to Germanic Folklore.

>>19904453
Faggot
>>19904457
Says to guy who watches capeshit.

>>19904458
Who cares if he was Christian or not? His made-up story is entertaining, even if the plainly Christian elements of it rub me the wrong way.

>>19904463
>me no like movie you watch
Lol

>>19904471
>BIBLE HAVE NO PUNCHY PUNCH SCENES. ME WATCH JEWISH MOVIES FOR FIGHTS LIKE REAL PAGAN

>>19904474
>BIBLE HAVE NO PUNCHY PUNCH SCENES
Never read Judges?

>>19904481
Of course I have, but retarded LARPagans haven't.

>>19904488
I have. Old Testament is quite fun because there’s regular action and bizarre shit.

>>19904423
I said pagan larpers. Also funny that you have to go to muh greeks when this thread is about the mudhut dwelling euro pagans.
I'll say it again, in a different way,
>no great works of art have been made by any non-Christians since the start of the Christian Era

>>19904493
david and goliath is a fun story
fit fag lifters btfo by a twink

>>19903971
I just hate Jews so goddamn much. If Christianity involved worshiping something like Sol Invictus or Mithras, then sure I'd do it, but whenever I start thinking of Jews I start shaking uncontrollably, salivating and frothing my mouth a little, and just visualizing dismembered corpses, decapitated heads, and gouged out eyes. I fucking hate Jews so goddamn much. How can you possibly worship one? Holy shit.

>>19904041
>Funny how Christians are rarely interested in telling any stories from their own mythology.
Once Europe became Christianized, all European folklore became "their mythology", you absolute cretin. And are you unaware of how popular stories of the saints and angels were in the middle ages?

>>19904502
>I’ll move the goalposts
Angkor Wat
Great Mosque of Mecca
Book of the Five Rings
Thus Spoke Zarathustra
A Treatise of Human Nature
Romance of the Three Kingdoms

>>19904524
We don't.

>>19904535
>Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Some schizo fag raving about how life is unfair isn't art.

>>19904543
Chad unbigoted Nietzsche with giant mustache VS virgin 4Chan racist

>>19904502
Alhambra

>>19904546
>unbigoted
Except towards his own race like the cuck he was.

>>19903799
Yeah man, his career focused on the anglo-saxon period of England, over which the germanic Saxons gradually christianised. Makes sense to mix the two when that period is such a major source of inspiration.

>>19904413
retard monkey brain take

>>19904524
>How can you possibly worship one?
Jews put Jesus on a cross for a reason, anon
>Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
>And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
>And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
>Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
>But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
>But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
>And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
>When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
>They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
>Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
>Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
>And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
>And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
>But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
>(Mat 21:33-46)

>>19904558
There is no way you think Thor fighting a frost giant is less entertaining and cool than some pussy who won’t even use his magic god powers to defend himself being nailed to a tree. Jesus would be a way cooler character if he just killed the Romans with holy laser beams or something

very low effort bait anon

>>19904567
Thor was a transvestite.

>>19904567
A god allowing himself to be killed to save the souls the humans is a strikingly bizarre and unique concept

>>19904576
What? No, there is one story where he pretends to be Freyja, but that’s just a trick to get close to the frost giants and recover Mjolnir. Loki’s the shapeshifter who did turn into a woman at times.

>>19904582
Still wore a dress, like a faggot.

>>19904535
>buildings
>weeb book
>edgy incel book
Kek.

>>19904583
robe!

>>19904583
So? Tough men dressing up as women to trick people is a pretty common slapstick thing

>>19904610
In degenerate Jewish movies, sure.

>>19904581
Probably because it’s dumb. Why do they need saving in the first place? If I was God, I wouldn’t be retarded and blame humans for the “original sin” in the first place, but I also wouldn’t have put that tree where Adam and Eve could access it in the first place.

>>19904618
>God is wrong because I don't understand things.

>>19904623
I understand this “God” character acts extremely illogically despite supposedly being omniscient within the text considered authoritative on him and his characteristics. There is no reason to hold humans accountable for something some distant ancestor did. It makes no sense.

>>19904537
Fuck both Israelites and Jews. That entire part of the Levant should have been razed and salted. All of this bullshit about descendants of Esau vs. Jacob is stupid. Both Israelites and Jews were dirty people compared to the Egyptians, Persians, and Romans. They were like stupid schizophrenic Gypsies. They should have been ethnically cleansed. The Hebrew language and scriptures should have been wiped out of existence.

>>19904641
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

>>19903799
> YOU MUST NOT GIVE INTO TEMPTATION OF POWER AND GREED OF THE PAGAN RING. POWER BAD!!
> YES, THESE USELESS MIDGET HOBBITS, WHO ARE PHYSICALLY THE WEAKEST OUT OF ALL OF US, WILL BE THE SAVIOURS CAUSE THE MEEK WILL INHERIT.
> YES SAURON EVIL AND BAD. NO I WILL NOT EXPLAIN. EVIL BAD.
> YOU MUST NEVER MENTION ANYTHING THAT MIGHT SOMEHOW RELATE TO SEX IN THIS PAGAN UNIVERSE. SEX NOT REAL.
> NO IDOLATRY! I’D OBVIOUSLY RATHER HAVE MY CHARACTERS BE ATHEISTS THAN WORSHIP IDOLS IN MY PAGAN UNIVERSE.

>>19904647
g*rms should be exterminated for being nothing but Jew tools for Christianity since they got conquered by Charlemagne. Their stupid nation was founded to spread disease since the 9th century.

Pagans are gay, lol

>>19903799
>prechristian germanic folklore

Literally what? There is barely any pure germanic culture before christianity. Usually Germanic culture is a mix of Roman myths and christianity. Edda is like this.

>>19904041
Already been done with Paradise lost though.

>>19904041
Besides dwarves and elves, I honestly don’t see much paganism in lord of the rings. The characters don’t even seem to worship any pagan gods, but seem to be kind of iconoclastic atheists.

>>19904552
>Except towards his own race like the cuck he was.
Like Christians?

>>19904790
>iconoclastic atheists.
Where did you get that from?

>>19904795

>>19904807
>Those dumb europeans couldn't make anything of value until they were converted to the superior jewish religion

>>19904423
>The Odyssey.
I’ll give you that. In fact, I prefer the Iliad and odyssey over LOTR, which I find morally simplistic.
> Parthenon
I’ll give you that though I never found it all that impressive. Too simplistic.
> The Eddas
Written by Christian although it still manages to be shit. Impossible to make Norse mythogloy as interesting as the Geek one.
> Pyramids
I’ll give you that. Although it’s strange to think that Romans and Greeks never surpassed it in height.
> Coliseum
Not impressive when one remembers that it was built by 100,000 slaves and all the vast resources that empire can produce. Still didn’t surpass the pyramid in height.

>>19904819
>I'll switch arguments! NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW!

>>19904801
Lack of statues besides that made of previous great kings.

>>19904041
A better question is why do modern neo-pagans like setting their pagan fantasy stories in feudal like world that’s obviously meant to be like ‘dark age’ medieval Christian Europe instead of a world more like ancient pagan Greece or Rome or even more like the ancient Germanic pagan tribes as describes by Tacitus?

>>19904552
Gorms are a hateful breed tho.

>>19904041
But Tolkien did set it in a world that’s obviously meant to be like Christian medieval Europe, not a world like pagan Greece or Rome or a world like viking Scandinavia, but more similar to a feudal like world under a Catholic monarch with knights and chivalry that arose only in Catholic medieval Europe.

>>19904960
It's kind of weird isn't it? I wouldn't say I am a Christian but I love Christian morality and values, yet when I imagine fantasy stuff I inevitably end up with a Norse mythology inspired thing.
My idea about "neo-pagans" is that they are largely urbanites so they like late medieval fantasy with Renaissance elements because it's very clean and orderly unlike earlier periods which are less civil and lacking in infrastructure. You always have roads, cities, kings, councils, etc. in modern fantasy and the barbarian types are often just decorative.

>>19906202
Why did you bump this shitty bait thread? It was on page 10
BAD ANON

>>19906208
Sorry. I don't watch what page the threads I was posting in are on. As soon as I open my eyes in the morning I immediately resume shitposting.

>>19903822
thats how all stories were written.
king arthur's story originally came from somewhere in persia then the welsh eventually made it about a king they had then the french revised it once more and added medieval knights and that.

There is no such thing as pre Christian since Christ created everything.

>>19903799
Tolkien's biggest influence in writing LOTR was Beowulf, which was already a Christianized Saxon story at the time it was recorded. Furthermore, Tolkien used the names and linguistic conventions and poetic elements of that Anglo-Saxon story and others, but the entire context of the world and its every resident element is totally different from any Germanic folklore. Elves and dwarves in the old tales were rascally midgets who pulled evil pranks all day.
You neo"pagans" are able to perceive this false dichotomy because you're shallow aestheticians operating in an assassinated Christian culture. You're as much a symptom of this as any tranny.