/lit/ - Literature

You may be interested in Kotkin's biography of Stalin or Philip Shorts biography of Pol Pot. Both are well researched portraits of men who seemed perfectly reasonable in person but did absolutely abhorrent things because they genuinely felt it was the right thing to do.

Read Night of the Aurochs

>>19882263
Mental Illness can be one, desire for power could be another. Loyalty, greed, fear, anger - any combination could lead to a herd mentality clambering for blood.

It's kind of a broad answer but to be fair the question itself is broad.

It's argued that the Romans were hellbent on exterminating the Gauls after their capital was sacked 100s of years before. Was it out of fear or revenge? Sort of hard to say, but 2 million were killed, the remaining 1 million were enslaved.

The mindset of a leader like Julius Caesar is going to be massively different than an Adolf Hitler invading Poland

>>19882333
>>19882295
How about the normal soldiers? Like the ones cheering on as adults and children are being burned alive in Come And See. What's the reasoning behind it? Have they being indoctrinated since birth to believe that these people are less than human and deserve to be mutilated? There has to be more than that. There has to be something in them telling them that everything's wrong.

>>19882263
It's fun.

Satan and his mind virus

>>19882392
My humble assumption - and this doesn't come from experience or knowledge - is that the indoctrination comes in waves.

You fight alongside men long enough and they become your brothers. The whole point of basic training is to 'break you down' and turn you into an obedient soldier, in all forms of military.

Similar 'mental training' is done in hazing cultures, and these people end up bonding with their equals and often trusting their superiors with their lives.

I can only imagine those bonds go stronger in battle, to the point where they don't see their opposition as human, and where even women and children are part of the 'opposition'

It doesn't really seem like a fast change, its something that was gradual and took years to develop

Again - this is all just my interpretation

The desire for a better and more pure world for your grandchildren to reside in and enjoy without the threat of corrupting elements and influences.

>>19882465
That's a rare Hitler, may I save it?

>>19882331
>>19882419
Thanks for the recs

Lol, people will shit all over you just to save a few pennies on the dollar, constantly. From there to genocide is just a matter of there being enough hungry people to take advantage of.

>>19882263
Humans are hard wired to ensure their own survival in a harsh violent world. This includes the accumulation of resources and power. War is waged in order to gain them and is simply a competition between two parties to decide which will win greater power. It is in many ways meritocratic as one groups ability to create, invent, strategize, and be courageous in the face of danger are what awards one side victory over another and thus the strong can carry forth and the weak can fall away. Atrocities are merely a side effect of warfare. and are done in order to intimidate and demoralize the enemy. Hatred, division and brutality towards the enemy are all signs of a healthy martial society. in the absence of warfare, strife or competition human beings become weak delusional animals.

>>19882263
Maleness

>>19882263
Ordinary Men - Christopher Browning
Commandant of Auschwitz - Rudolf Höss

>>19882719
based and judgepilled

>>19882263
you should read flavius and caesar

>>19882719
Absolutely based. I kneel

>>19882263
Had you been born a healthy individual not brainwashed by a society whose main goal is to generate complacent and docile cattle, you would have understood that atrocities are part of natural behavior.

The core principle of humanity is struggle for resources, and on that basis alone it implies that your brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters will suffer. By the point you end up succeeding in vanquishing the foe, you inevitably save up all the suffering your community have collectively accumulated, and what do you do in that situation? Retribution, payback, catharthic release of anger etc.

In fact the natural European behavior of not butchering the foe in its totality is a result of the fact that white people have historically been fighting each other, their own kin, and because of that they were more inclined to be mercifull. If you were to however move to a place where civilizations borders - aka where two or more civilizations clash - like Russia (Slavs, Mongoloid, Caucasian Iranics), Spain(Meds and Nafris), Nafri (clash against Africa and Arabs), Persia (clash against Arabs and Mongoloids) and Arabia (clash against Persians and Nafris) you will start to witness atrocities on higher level, and that is by design. These people do not share kinship with each other, so they percieve those tribes to be potential threat and competition for future resources, therefore it is within their best interest to destroy them in their totality.

TL:DR: You're a massive faggot, and no matter how good-hearted you are, if you are put in a civilizational border, you will either get redpilled, or slaughtered by people who are redpilled.

>>19883859
>Had you been born a healthy individual not brainwashed by a society whose main goal is to generate complacent and docile cattle, you would have understood that atrocities are part of natural behavior.
glad a 20th century vagrant from a decaying society could tell us how to be healthy individuals!

>>19883859
Absolutely embarrassing tirade that is easily disproven by the Banality of evil example with Eichmann being the most coddled office working weakling who still aided in genocide.
"muh tribes" hasn't been an argument since Hegel, so shut the fuck up.

>>19883868
>Doesn't refute the point
I accept your concession

>>19883874
>Provides totally irrelevant point that doesn't refute anything

I accept your concession as well

>>19883878
I think the value judgement you make (that approval of atrocity is a sign of social health) is ahistorical, unless you mean to say that perhaps a majority of historical "civilised" societies have been "unhealthy". I would agree that atrocities are "natural" however

>>19883859
>Had you been born a healthy individual not brainwashed by a society whose main goal is to generate complacent and docile cattle, you would have understood that atrocities are part of natural behavior.
Don't you have to be an unhealthy individual brainwashed by a society whose main goal is to generate complacent and docile cattle in order to willingly put your life in gread danger in order to simply subject another person to untold suffering and death, despite him never doing anything wrong to you and not being a threat in any way, all while you could be doing something productive and fulfilling with your life instead of cowering from a shelling in mud near Stalingrad?

>These people do not share kinship with each other, so they percieve those tribes to be potential threat and competition for future resources, therefore it is within their best interest to destroy them in their totality.
I dunno, the guys who ended up actually throatfucking your picrelated drastically disagreed in both theory and practice.

>>19883887
We are deconstructing it from the most basic point possible. If you're to apply nuance to this equation, then you will need to understand the value of peasants, slaves, women, resources, potential for more manpower in terms of recruitment, geopolitical situation, demographical makeup etc.

All of those things are products of necessity, which CAN potentially overpower the desire to 'end' a tribe. But you have to understand that the tensions built upon the basis of 'dislike of other' do not go away. At best they're 'post-poned'. This is why certain kinds of different ethnicities can exist in an empire without causing problems, and then turn into the most violent savage-like enemies when said empire collapses. The tribal tensions do not disappear no matter how hard you try to mask them.

>>19883905
>Doesn't refute the point.
It's a /lit/-trope at this stage

>>19882392
Your looking for reason in a Hollywood movie about Nazis. In the movies they're just dumb and evil, everything they do is without reason because the people that make them can't imagine or won't recognize any reason.

>>19883931
But those things actually happened

>>19883931
Come and See is a Soviet movie, but it was made by a Jew so it's kinda similar. Although in his case he was smarter because unlike typical Jewish mouthbreather of Hollywood this Jew was a great movie-maker.

The based Dirlewanger Brigade was an exception to the rule however, and there are plenty accounts of people in Slavic lands being treated well by Germans. The movie is a propaganda, although more cleverly disguised but that just goes to show how retarded Hollywood truly is as a comparison

>>19883921
>- It's healthy and natural to surrender your own free will and obey tyranny that uses and abuses you for it's own purposes, only cattle does otherwise.
>- But that's definitely unhealthy, only cattle does exactly that, and we know for a fact that it ends very badly for said cattle.
>- NOT REFUTED!

>- People must kill everything because everything is a threat, and will kill you otherwise.
>- It's not a threat though, and the only ones ending up being killed are the ones who actually do pose a danger for everyone by treating everything as a threat. People who don't do that have a much better time prospering and not commiting atrocities.
>- NOT REFUTED!

You are a /lit/-meme at this point.

>>19883931
>Your looking for reason in a Hollywood movie about Nazis
It's not a Hollywood movie tho. It's Belarusian.

>>19883955
Hey, I have no complaints. You being a retarded bumping whore will sooner or later attract individuals who can actually make arguments.

You still haven't refuted the point though.

>>19883946
>The based Dirlewanger Brigade was an exception to the rule however, and there are plenty accounts of people in Slavic lands being treated well by Germans.
There are numerous accounts of leftist people living in leftist regimes and not being basedfaced blacked.com addicted cuckold trooon faggots as well, but...

>>19883959

Empathycucks are the biggest blight on this planet. Please kill yourselves right now. All of you. You've dragged this species down for too long.

>>19884604
The interesting thing is that they're not really 'emphathic' per say, because that implies a certain spiritual understanding, which is not present in a typical NPC-cuck who sends 'thoughts and prayers' when he really doesn't give a shit. It's mostly smoke and mirrors.

What it really boils down to is fear. An individual who surrenders easily, who fears struggle, who's incapable of dying for something, he's scared shitless by "monsters" who won't let him live after he surrenders.

>>19884656
How very feminine. Give up then hope that pussy-pass will save you, except that you're a man. I'm starting to see why transsexualism is a thing

>>19882392
Read Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. I think it may be exactly what you're looking for OP. Just not as dramatized

>>19884704
Trannyism is the logical conclusion to the journey of the Nietzchean lastman. In his pursuit to be as passive and as inactive as possible he ends up becoming a woman. In my eyes ever worse because for all the flaws of the femenine, the gender still tries. Yeah the resilience is not always there unfortunately, but at least the will - or the naive idea that it's going to be easy - is present. A transsexual becomes a woman because he lacks even that.

That aside is there a book that explores this characterisation >>19884656 of behavior? The dread weak males have towards strong ones?

christ is our only hope

>>19882465
yeah.

>>19882465
Beautiful

>>19884768
All words with multiple syllables, and they all mean jackshit

https://youtu.be/m0m573MxXXw
Not a book but a good documentary about the psychology of killing focused on Vietnam vets. If you're not going to watch the whole documentary at least watch this 15 minute clip where they interview a Tunnel Rat. Pretty chilling shit: https://youtu.be/m57bj5Ljm9g

>>19885170
>Triggered
Seethe, cope, dialate

>>19885204
If you have sex first

war is LE BAD

>>19885221
>neckbeard who has never experienced war makes fun of people opposing it

I bet you also think sex is overrated

>>19885211
>projection
I can smell your virginity from here

>>19885234
No, sorry, that's just you. Also, seething over women not wanting to fuck you will never make the Fourth Reich real, sweetie. Now back to /pol/ and the dole with you

>>19885233
ok buddy

>>19885241
Tell us about your war experience then, Jünger jr.

>>19885240
>More projection
Triggered empathy-cuck troon is a walking comedy machine

>>19882263
>What's the psychology behind it? How can people enjoy watching others get brutalized?
woman spotted.
or a low test faggot

>>19885246
You're literally just a meme spouter, I don't think you should be accusing anyone of being a walking comedy machine.

I mean seriously, can you even use English words that don't involve faggy memes?

>>19885268
It is important to dumb down the language when you're dealing with mentally challenged children such as youreself.

>Waaah, waah, war le bad. Waah, waah, I get triggered but I can't refute, there u le bad.

>>19885306
No, I think you're just lost in a world of moronic memes where you took online tongue in cheek humor dead serious, and turned it into your entire worldview, with no escape from the childishness you desperately project onto others.

You're basically the tragedy of the permanently online personified. You can't even communicate anymore in an offline manner. How sad. Do you talk to strangers in /pol/ memes as well? How embarrasing that must be for them

>>19885354
>Waah Waah Waaah, U meanie, I hate u, u made me cry, Waah waah, war le bad waah waah.

It almost feels bad to pick on the retarded, but you're a glownigger and you keep bumping the thread so I'm okay with this

>>19885367
This is just really sad. You keep doing the very thing I just accused you of, in respond to the very post where I accuse you of it. Are you a bot or something? Or are there actually people out there so pathetic that they have literally no life outside of the internet?

>>19885393
>Waah waah waah
Glownigger-kun, threads falling, I need your bump don't fail me now

>>19882263
I'm a psychology student and while I'm not lit expert, I can tell you the power of groupthink and herd mentality is one of the most powerful social forces there are

Conformity and diffusion of responsibility is inevitable in group settings, and so behavior that would seem unthinkable to you alone becomes normal in a group

Very few people are comfortable leading, and even fewer are comfortable being openly wrong - which is not a problem when you're alone

So simply put it's much easier to commit terrible acts if you're with other people doing the same thing, particularly if you're told it is the 'correct' thing to do, like the Nazis believed

The more important question is what enables people to reach the level of Hitler/Stalin and what about them made people follow them? Lots of people still believe in what Hitler said today but it'll never lead to a war like it did at the time - why?

>>19882263
Read Metaphysics of War

>>19885478
are some of* my bad

>>19885478
>I'm a psychology student
LMAO

>>19885306
Why is war good?

I assume you will respond, war is not good: the need to be prepared for possible war is nessecary.

War exists because perfect trust does not exist. If perfect contement and trust could exist between Men, war would have no reason to occur.

Because some men may lack respect for others, or so consider their own benefit, they will lack consideration of others, war is possible to exist.
The source of war is the desire to theft?

The source of war is the inability for a random man, for many random men to Fully trust one another. A man may be untrustworthy, therefore man must be prepared for war, offense and defense.

Man live and die, 100 years, 100 years, 1000 years, new men find themselves appeared on Earth; and discover, a lack of absolutely perfect promised gureenteed grounds on which to not only trust a man, to trust another powerful man, but to trust all men, at all times, to not only consider your own well being, but to not desire the lack of your own well being.

It is impossible to tell which male children for certain will grow to be demons, thus all nations must be prepared to offense and defense.

Demons offending and defending against men, men offending and defending against demons, armies of demons and men offending and defending against armies of demon and men.

Consider the word Demon. Consider Mon to be similar to Man. Consider De to mean anti or non.

>>19885512
Believe me I feel the same way

At least it's transferable, I am never going to spend a day of my life after graduating working in this field

>>19885478
If you were to put individuals in similar circumstances like you laid out, but then switch out one important factor, they're to kill their own parents who will be placed right before their eyes. There will be glowniggers in that group that will perform the action on certain pairs to simulate the heard behavior.

Do you think that the soldiers would shoot? And don't deflect by saying they're not the same thing either.

>>19885532
I think it depends on the person - the idea that the first country hitler invaded was Germany is stupid - lots of them REALLY wanted that war; those are the sort of people you could believe would kill a loved one to facilitate their desire for conflict, people have killed family for less

On the flip side, there's lots of evidence for soldiers on both sides deliberately missing, because they had to be there, had to take part - but didn't want to actually kill anyone

I like to think most people would not kill their parents in your scenario, and to go further I'd like to think most people would rather die for insubordination than kill them

But realistically I'm certain a decent amount of people would

And I'm not trying to say conformity is justification for bad acts - ultimately you are always responsible for your actions, but it takes immense strength of character to resist that influence which most people simply lack

>>19885531
I am just memeing bro lol
>At least it's transferable, I am never going to spend a day of my life after graduating working in this field
You should transfer ASAP
I literally just finished degree I fucking hate its pretty much useless to me since I dont intent to work in that field

>>19885519
At the same time, or also, imagine being a part of a tribe, and for whatever reason this season it looks like you dont have enough food to feed the tribe, less animals to hunt, growing population, crop failure.

Some scouts come back and report s local village that has stocks and stores or wheat and corn and meat.

You and your family of families are experiencing the demanding pains of hunger, as cats eat their deceased owners.

You could ask this village nicely if you can work together, or borrow stuff to hold over, begin a relation of trade. Or that might not be met so well, or it may be awkward admitting to those village leaders your failures as a leader and man.

You are becoming delerious with hunger, their stocks of fruit and grain and meats and women appear delicious.

Might the straightest path towards getting what you want and need be to ambush this village.

>>19885564
Man baiting the glownigger was worth this comment alone.

That evidence points to us a rather interesting dynamic. If the person truly doesn't want to do it, he won't, he'll fake, he'll come up with something to say the least - assuming of course the circumstances will let him.

Don't you think then that many soldiers that pulled the trigger had their own ideas and wills as well? Don't you think they might have realised themselves what reality of this world truly is. I mean we can say it's brainwashing left and right, but place a typical liberal amidst a Ghetto hood and he'll get redpilled real quick assuming enough tribalism is applied to the equation.

Behind good actions, there can be atrocious intentions, especially if they're made on the basis of ignorance. Similarly, behind attrocious actions, there can be good intentions as well. That's a redpill in itself.

If you picking up the sword and cruelly murdering children and adults alike results in a brighter future that will be devoid of such strife, haven't you done an ultimately good thing? Now compare it to not doing, and then allowing those people a time of 'recovery' that will eventually return to same old tribal war that might hurt even more people than the last one did.

There's a price for weakness in everything, but nobody wants to admit it.

>>19885596
I'm in my third year so changing would be pointless really

By transferable I mean a psychology degree is generally a good degree for all kinds of fields, obviously nothing specialised but if you're like me with no clear idea what you want to do as a career, it's not a bad degree to have

I just don't find the actual subject as interesting as I used to

>>19882263
Monkey emotions. You're delusional and beyond help if you don't think 99% of people are perfectly fine with killing anybody they have arbitrary ideological/emotional bullshit emotional disagreements with. The question is what STOPS people from doing it, and the answer is simple practicality and foresight. In most cases, the backlash from other monkeys (prison time on the small scale, war on the large scale) makes it not worth the tradeoff. As soon as you hit a tipping point where you think enough monkeys agree with you and the other monkeys probably won't be able to do a ton of damage with their backlash, then logically you get to carry out your monkey hate and start killing, promoting killing, laughing at monkeys being killed, etc.

>>19882263
Monkey emotions. You're delusional and beyond help if you don't think 99% of people are perfectly fine with killing anybody they have arbitrary ideological/cultural bullshit emotional disagreements with. The question is what STOPS people from doing it, and the answer is simple practicality and foresight. In most cases, the backlash from other monkeys (prison time on the small scale, war on the large scale) makes it not worth the tradeoff. As soon as you hit a tipping point where you think enough monkeys agree with you and the other monkeys probably won't be able to do a ton of damage with their backlash, then logically you get to carry out your monkey hate and start killing, promoting killing, laughing at monkeys being killed, etc.

Dunno

>>19885616
I think it comes down to principle and the how important your self-image is to you - everyone wants to be the hero - but a hero can't make the terrible choices that have to be made sometimes

Like your example, not killing those people would keep your hands directly clean; but lead to more suffering, some would argue that that suffering was going to happen, and that as long as you did nothing bad you're in the clear

I personally have always found that self-indulgent, if you know that doing a bad thing will stop an even greater bad thing; and you don't - I think that's morally worse than doing it

But obviously you'd never know until you're in that most so it's all hypothetical

>>19885645
scenario* no clue where most came from lmao

Shut the fuck up and post BOOKS, you fucking retards. No one wants to read your cringe ass edgelord essay based on nothing but your vast experience of being fucking useless piles of shit for your entire life.

>>19885675
The only anon that got it right in the entire thread

>>19885645
You're falling on the tropes created neatly and nicely by some spiritually dead Jews whose circumstances never allow them to understand that there's more to world than being a hero.

Ever heard of the ideal of a retired general who lives on a simple farm and needs to glory of his past? That's also a hero, but self-importance and self-image is not his forte he just does what he thinks is right. Now I'm not gonna shit on heroes who want to be heroes since that's their choice, but these ones 'fall' all the time, while the humble guy stays true to himself all the way to the end.

Also that last sentance, it has led to more strife and cruelty in this world than anything else.

>>19885675
I will astrally project both of DEZE NUTS into your mouth tonight. You're about to become a real faggot, not just a spiritual one.
>>19885681
You as well

Also thank you for bumps retarded children

>>19882263
You see, it should've been me
It could've been me
Everybody knows
Everybody says so
They say, "Ah, you have loads of songs
So many songs, oh, songs and they can stand, and middle eighth
Break a fade, just listen"

>>19885519
>>19885615
Great read. I suppose you're somewhat close to spirituality, so lets take it from there. In my eyes, a 'demon' is a failure of society, or a spiritual sickness. The first can be remedeed, the second can be killed off early enough, and there are many cultures that have practiced psychopath killing - like innuits(or someone else I forget) purposefully going hunting with such individuals then quietly killing them off. That is justice, by killing one rotten apple you've improved life for the entire tribe.

The village example is interesting because it is a series of cascading events that ultimately cause pain. The stores were raided because someone failed their guarding duty, and the raiders most likely because they failed to be smart and storing their own food - that's their own fault. They got naturally selected out in terms of brains so they try to makeup with brawn that causes more pain down the line. That's parasitic behavior and because of their retardness they have caused 10x as much suffering in this world. In a dharmic sense it is healthy to remove these individuals from existance. Do that enough times and you get a good society that can focus on greater frontiers.

Now I get that it's more complex than that, but my point is that it is possible to construct a good society, it's just that we live in a world that never bothers to learn from old mistakes.

I think that you can ultimately reach a point where there is no war, but you must first be willing to spill enough blood because if you aren't if you hide behind platitudes that it's wrong, the war will continue forever, or till someone savage enough gets lucky to win on accident - and what then? You're stuck with retards de-evolving into apes before the whole thing is 'reset' again.

>>19882392
If you want an American perspective, you could read Tiger Force about a special operations group in Vietnam who were told to do whatever they wanted.

>>19882263
Your premise is sus.
Feminine ethical sentiment.
It's going to be hysteric overreacting completely system blind and only hand wringing emotion over perceived slights. Anything can be imagined to be an atrocity let alone the actual functions of war as an extension of politics.

>>19883859
>>19882719

lol based!

>>19882295
They didn't do anything abhorrent though. Just tarnished by american propaganda

>>19884792
Ugliest end

>>19883859
Tl:Dr: u live close to ghetto u are redpilled on Nigs, if u live in Downtown u blue pulled on them

>>19885783
>The village example is interesting because it is a series of cascading events that ultimately cause pain.

It was an attempt to highlight a source of war being individual or group, lacking material (or otherwise) access.

Ancient Rome, wanting land, slaves, materials, money.

Medieval kings, wanting land, slaves, materials, money

Colonization ...

American civil war, I'm sure it fits in there some how relating to that: that maybe that brings us to war on moral grounds, though I have heard civil war situation may be slightly more complex; if south succseeded, and became their own nation, this would weaken the north take away lots of their revenue from southern coast ports and trade, be greater competition for international trade, and be an energy and material drain of having to constantly be on defensive toes on the border, as well as other things I'm not thinking of, but again, land, workers, materials, money.
>The first can be remedeed, the second can be killed off early enough, and there are many cultures that have practiced psychopath killing - like innuits(or someone else I forget) purposefully going hunting with such individuals then quietly killing them off. That is justice, by killing one rotten apple you've improved life for the entire tribe.
Reminds me of the reality shows where groups and alliances are developed and deceptions and backstabbing and strategy to eliminate people with stengyths or weaknesses

>>19885940
>Reality show
That's in a show where is no kinship among people, no established culture, no wise men imparting wisdom to later generations and no culture that appreciates healthy and strong tribal bonds. Plant a psychopath in a culture like that tribe I was talking about and they will quietly kill him off not because he's better or stronger, but because he causes pain and ruins for everyone else.

>Source of War.
Failure of society, retaliation, retribution, external pressures, tribal conflicts. What's your point?

>>19885922
Well I suppose a modern Western city is a good example.

>>19885983
>>Source of War.
>Failure of society, retaliation, retribution, external pressures, tribal conflicts. What's your point?
>What's your point?
Are all wars, besides moral ones, theoretically avoidable? And should war avoidance be universally supremely preferred? By who, says who?

Civil war being about ending slavery is very interesting, war on moral grounds in general.

For instance we believe killing innocent people is immoral. Let's say a nation existed wherin they had a lottery system in which every individual was given a number at birth, and every single day on a male and females 18th birthday, one of each from that number pool 18 years ago, would be randomly selected to be tortured and killed and televised this event on natural tv.

What would be the course of action for a moral nation, made aware of such an activity, to perform?

Lots of colonisation by England and spain, of the barbaric savages, was obviously partly and mainly personal gain, but also I don't know, trying to stop immoralities, or is that just purely an attempt to clean up the new work forces productivity

>>19885983
I think I brought up reality show situation, to show how when presented with scarcity (there can only be one winner of the show), but to progress through the show one needs alliances and team work with others, people quickly forgoe morality to win the game

Read the paper "Good people, dirty work" by Everett C. Hughes. It's pretty short. Around 15 pages.

>>19885783
>likely because they failed to be smart and storing their own food - that's their own fault
Not always their own fault, neighboring tribe could have out hunted local animals, or some bad frost or insects destroyed crops.

Where there have been wars in the middle east the past 40 years, what have those been over, pretty much republican vs democrat (only comparing in terms of political ideological legal belief convictions factions) wars to see which political regime will rule/oversee/direct the socio politico economic territory?

Different groups of people vying for controlling a seat of power, as it was in the 1500 italian city states?

A large motivation of a certain type of man in society has always been to comfortably benefit, to gain the most possible out of life, and there are certain openings in the world, positions of work and overseeing and control and power which offer a man a lot of material comfort without the back breaking labor of a laborer. These positions are very attractive. If there are even faint options of pleasurably making an amount of money (usually more than) or back breakingly making that same amount of money, it is often so obvious a desire to aim for the former, and it just so happens historically, the benefits that come along with political power match that outlook for oppurtunity.

>>19886086
What if everyone were the same? I'll to be a bit vague because the Janny who takes this shift is a bit more touchy-feely and frankly also kinda cucked.

I mean that everyone were alike - take it however you want - would there be a greater chance at preventing the insanity that causes weak betamales to wet themselves? I think that there would be less suffering personally, and all the problems would be a heck of a lot easier to solve.

>>19886179
>outhunted
If someone got up earlier than them, isn't it still their fault still? They could have predicted a scarcity potential and tried to take it from there.

>The wars in MENA
Well there's a common consesus answer, and then there's a redpill answer. I think you're viewing it from a common consensus and it kinda misses the point.

>Large motivation of a certain type of a man
I agree. But what if you were to 'remove' that kind of man, then create a society that ensures that these kinds of people get proper spiritual guidance - aka don't get corrupted - or are quietly removed if they're beyond help? Wouldn't that cause an end to all suffering. Yes we can argue that such society is an impossibility, but I believe that you can reach that state if you strive hard enough.

I think that allowing this kind of man to exist is the problem of all societies atm, and unless people collectively realise what kind of problem a single such individual, I don't even mention entire bloodlines or communities, then nothing will change. And the kicker is that the answer is rather spiritual in nature.

>>19882263
after living in the current year for about 0.2 microseconds i can tell you that the victims of these supposed "atrocities" probably brought it on themselves

>>19882719
>>19883859
>>19886316

>>19882263
I am a sane, well-mannered, even-tempered indvidual. I do not revel in sadism nor am I enamoured by violence. I have, however, throughout my entire life, been a proponent of genocide. If you have a genuine enemy that poses an existential threat there is no other recourse but their total destruction. Anything less than complete elimination will lead only to continued rivalry and countless attempts at revenge. .

>>19882263
There are definitely great reasons why a leader in high position would do so. But for the grunts and random squad leaders that do it in war I think it’s just because of lack of consequence and complete freedom in the moment and flimsy justification of looking at the enemy as a whole different alien being

>>19886298
>What if everyone were the same?
There are ways in which you likely would have no problem with everyone being the same: for instance that almost everyone has 2 eyes. Or that almost everyone can walk. There are some things that almost everyone posses as human that you likely accept as being the case.

Do you have absolutely no moral convictions you believe are universal?

If you grew up in a small village and one day a powerful man in your village came up to your brother or family or you and started torturing you, what would you think of that, if you were a kid, judging from your responses so far you may think that's just if you and your family could not defend.

Now in that same village if that did not occur, but you were a strong man of 25, and a powerful man of your village is removing a child and family from their home and torturing them, what would you think of this. If he called to you to help, would you join in the torture? Would you walk away? Or try to stop him?

Would your answer change if there were 5 or 10 or 20 of them doing this?

If they had no weapons but you had lots of ammo and gun?

If you had no ammo and they had guns?

You don't have any cruelty in you?

>>19882263
How do you know you won't enjoy the brutality of it all? Imagine being a naive SS man and you come across a village, it's your first time and your stomach is churning. Are you really going to kill a person? Even if they are jews they look and sound like you and me. So you aim, fire, rack the bolt with shaking hands, hear the scream and observe the red spot on the ground. Then it dawns to you, you actually enjoy killing people.

Most people here would love the thrill of killing if they thought they'd get away with it

I have a bit of debt, no family to help me, no job, I'm about to be homeless and I'm very scared, I have no qualifications for work and am scared to go to a job interview because I don't like the anxiety or pressure of pleading a stranger in power for a job, but youre telling me I can be given a gun to be paid and fed to rape and kill? Sign me up I geuss

>>19882263
It's fun. You should try it.

Society has failed me, I am at a loss, I can no longer take it, I have nothing to live for, I have nothing to lose, give me a gun, give me a hamburger, tell me who to kill and you shall be my master

>>19882263
It’s simple: they did not find the people they killed to be humans like themselves. Easy way for sociopathic demagogues to justify to normal people that what they are doing is not only not immoral, but actually a good thing.

>>19886179
>it just so happens historically, the benefits that come along with political power match that outlook for oppurtunity.

This relates to power vacuum; leadership, political, economical, societal, cultural, legal, commercial, militarial is needed, at all times; when there is a lacking, there is a vacuum; there is contest between parties to fill the vacuum;

Going back to my initial statements regarding lack of trust; parties battle for power because they do not trust the other parties will best succeed in the position of power, and/or because they do not trust themselves to have greater success outside of occupying that position of power.

>>19882263
Watch Experimenter (2015) film/documentary.

>>19886553
>Society has failed me, I am at a loss, I can no longer take it, I have nothing to live for, I have nothing to lose, give me a gun, give me a hamburger, tell me who to kill and you shall be my master

My mom was mean to me, she yelled at me and made me crazy and mad, kids were mean to me in school, give me a gun right now and tell me who to kill

>>19882263
Entertainment, bordom, anger, revenge, sexual frustration, hatred, profit, ideology, fear, insanity

>>19886515
>Now in that same village if that did not occur, but you were a strong man of 25, and a powerful man of your village is removing a child and family from their home and torturing them, what would you think of this. If he called to you to help, would you join in the torture? Would you walk away? Or try to stop him?
>Would your answer change if there were 5 or 10 or 20 of them doing this?
>If they had no weapons but you had lots of ammo and gun?
>If you had no ammo and they had guns?
Should have added if they offered you 10 dollars an hour? 20? 200? 2000?

>>19886616
'Holocaust' novels are made up nonsense. The writers are just using this background to project their own bullshit fantasies, just like Salo or 'Zone of interest'.

>>19882263
"Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Acts of Genocide" by James Waller.

>>19882719
Really really no.
Wars require tremendous resources that could be saved if not for war for resources.

>>19886817
Midwit take. War gives you access to an a conquered, and therefore uncontested territory with an abundance of resources. Depending on the region you can get payment at once, or in 5-25 years, and then it just keeps on paying dividents etc.

>>19886817
Looking at a too modern standpoint, while yes by today standards wars are very expensive projects, it wasn't as bad as back then.

They were usually made up of levies who brought their own equipment and had their own training, not to mention you wouldn't need to pay a lot for them, only feed them.

The land you may also be of use, giving you more people to tax, more resources to utilise and trade with and also in general influence.

By those standards, wars were pretty profitable, sure plauges and destruction did have heavy tolls on armies, after less than a few years most of it would be replenished and repaired.

>>19886889
It's still worth it even today assuming you can pull of victory by grabbing enough landmass. That's access to resources you can keep trading etc, and yeah (((sanctions))) are a thing, but a lot of countries have proved to be rather resilient against that kind of thing.

>>19886862
And somehow looking at history aside from the glorious moments generals, emperors etc had bad endings no? So much for real benefit.
>>19886889
There were non stop revolutions, usurpery and conflicts.
I might agree with you on short term benefits made out of raids but there is a reason more stable goverments value peace internal and external. The inability to keep it is another good subject.

>>19886942
You're naive believing that revolutions, usurpery and conflicts can't happen without war. It can happen on own hometurf where all people are the same.

Yeah I can see from your rhetoric that you're kinda dumb on this, and what's more you're unable to put in effort to research the topic because you dread it on a spiritual level.

>>19886952
I was a soldier on the border with Turkey in Cyprus for 6 months and i lived in a semi ghetto with pakistani gangs and Hellenic neonazis.
What have you done, warrior?

War is immature.

>>19886984
Fighting in war ≠ Understanding reasons for war

>>19886984
>I have you know that I've graduated on top of my navy seal class.....

Doesn't change the fact that you can't refute the point boomer. Post body faggot, I can smell your weakness from here

>>19887029
Which point exactly?

>>19887022
Are you the one giving the orders?

>>19887034
Post body tripfag

>>19887065
No i won't.

>>19887065
Goodnight

>>19887079
>>19887099
Frumpy weaksauce betamale confirmed. Stop larping and learn to engage with the idea.

I accept your concession btw

>>19882263
I think that in regions where lawlessness takes over, men without wives or families form marauding bands and its this human tendency that leads to much of the extreme violence you see in history. The notion of barbarian Kingdoms where there is institutionalized killing and raping is a western invention created to try and justify war post hoc with other nation states. You'll also notice that man crimes committed in war are usually committed by particular units, and are not evenly distributed throughout.
Why? One can only really speculate. Perhaps it's the attempt of a rootless group of males to find a place, tear it apart, and start a new settlement. These groups of men form up either because they're exiles, least wanted sons, or other varieties of outcast, and generally speaking human societies are highly inimical to the outcast male. If such a group of males encounter a community, what really are the options? The males can move on, certainly, but they must eat, they can ask the people if they would like to join their small community, but what people would do that? They could ask to join, but no community wants an influx of rootless men inside.
Thus, to this group of males anyone without their group isn't innocent, and for many people that's all it takes to abuse and hurt them with joy. It also increases the solidarity of the group since the violence becomes a kind of ritual. You can see this in videos of Brazillian gangs shooting their enemies - notice how, even though it would only take one man unloading his clip to kill the person, they all unload as a group, and this is so that everyone is made party to the crime, and thus the group loyalty to one another is enforced.
Our modern societies for the most part have learned to coopt such groups to their purposes, either by funneling these people into the army, or forcing them to the more lawless parts of society through selective hiring and poverty where they can serve as opportunistic troublemakers.
Books? Blood Meridian, Moby Dick, Paradise Lost, The Illiad.

I once read this story about a soldier who confessed he actually had the time of his life. The adrenaline shock was like nothing else. I wish I could remember what the link was.
I think the simple truth is that we just like killing.

>>19882263
>130 replies
>no one has mentioned Rising Up and Rising Down
pretty good indication it is not worth coming to /lit/ for book recommendations.

>>19882263
Pic related.

>>19887455
Fuck off pseud.

>>19887455
nobody is reading all of that nonsense

>>19882719
>Humans are hard wired to-
Stopped reading there.
That statement is pure ideology and you cannot prove what follows it, relying merely on rhetoric and on people’s selective memory.

>>19882719
> It is in many ways meritocratic as one groups ability to create, invent, strategize, and be courageous in the face of danger are what awards one side victory over another and thus the strong can carry forth and the weak can fall away.

> meteor falls in your continent
> flood wipes away your capital city
> shit weather, why not, drought your country into crime and civil war
> storm sinks your main fleet
> King slips on recently cleaned floor and hits his head on marble table, splitting it and bleeding to death in seconds.

>>19883859
All human beings on earth share a common ancestor as early as 2000 years ago.

>>19886686
>>19886515
Anyone answer this, preferably everyone.

>>19882263
low iq is linked to lack of empathy. not really much more to it

>>19882263
Off the top of my head I could say all the likely explanations are greed, ideology, revenge, cruelty, and power.

>>19887580
ok satan

https://youtu.be/oyJTv_qLqsI

>>19888740
Intelligence is not linked to empathy at all.

>>19889579
There is a correlation between IQ and empathy.

>>19887565
>humans are hard wired to eat
NOOOO THAT'S IDEOLOGY YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE CLAIMS LIKE THAT

>>19889584
No there isn't. There is a correlation between verbal IQ and empathy, there is no correlation between spatial (masculine) IQ (which results in superior mathematical reasoning and financial success) and empathy.

>>19889591
t. autistic

>>19887565
>Humans are hardwired to breathe
NOOOOOO t-thats IDEOLOGY! (((SCIENCE))) HAS DISPROOOOOVED IT AAAARGGH I'M DIBOOOONKING AAAAAA

>>19888532
Badly formulated, hurt me spiritually trying to read that shit. Rephrase it and people might

>>19888740
All cutting edge IQ-individuals score rather low on empathy. The bull-curve meme where retards and geniuses agree with each other is a very real thing.

>>19888740
>>19882263
empathy has nothing to do with committing atrocities
those who commit them never do so out of lack of empathy, they do it IN SPITE of it.

>>19889591
>spatial (masculine)
[citation needed]
Anecdotal evidence and personal observations don't count.

>>19885618
Can you do neurology with a psychology degree? At least they're tangential in some manner

>>19889615

Increased psychopathy [low empathy] in men with high pre-natal testosterone exposure: Carré JM, Ortiz TL, Labine B, Moreau BJ, Viding E, Neumann CS, Goldfarb B (December 2015). "Digit ratio (2D:4D) and psychopathic traits moderate the effect of exogenous testosterone on socio-cognitive processes in men". Psychoneuroendocrinology. 62: 319–26. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2015.08.023

Pre-natal testosterone exposure predicts academic performance: Nye JV, Androuschak G, Desierto D, Jones G, Yudkevich M (2012). "2D:4D asymmetry and gender differences in academic performance". PLOS ONE. 7 (10): e46319. Bibcode:2012PLoSO...746319N. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0046319

Perceived 'dominance' and masculinity of man's face: Neave N, Laing S, Fink B, Manning JT (October 2003). "Second to fourth digit ratio, testosterone and perceived male dominance". Proceedings. Biological Sciences. 270 (1529): 2167–72. doi:10.1098/rspb.2003.2502

Decreased empathy in men, in response to adult testosterone levels: Carré JM, Ortiz TL, Labine B, Moreau BJ, Viding E, Neumann CS, Goldfarb B (December 2015). "Digit ratio (2D:4D) and psychopathic traits moderate the effect of exogenous testosterone on socio-cognitive processes in men". Psychoneuroendocrinology. 62: 319–26. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2015.08.023

Higher numeracy [spatial IQ] (compared to literacy) in children with high pre-natal testosterone exposure: Brosnan MJ (February 2008). "Digit ratio as an indicator of numeracy relative to literacy in 7-year-old British schoolchildren". British Journal of Psychology. 99 (Pt 1): 75–85. doi:10.1348/000712607X197406. PMID 17535470

Inverted U-shape relation between pre-natal testosterone exposure and mathematical ability (participants with both high and low digit ratios earn lower grades in mathematics, while participants with intermediate digit ratios achieve the highest grades): Sánchez Á, Sánchez-Campillo J, Moreno-Herrero D, Rosales V (2014). "2D:4D values are associated with mathematics performance in business and economics students". Learning and Individual Differences. 36: 110–116. doi:10.1016/j.lindif.2014.10.001.

>>19889643
>no back-pedalling
Based and Thanks.

>>19889613
The frumpy midwit liberal DYEL male - that makes the bulk of /lit/ population - is unable to admit this fact because it scares him on a visceral level.

>>19884656
This is the cause. Their inability to comprehend stems from their unconscious fear, where passiveness and compliance will still result in oblivion. They will never admit it however because they do not have the mental strength to understand themselves.

>>19887471
More white cuckery.

>>19882855
Quiet, whore

Anyways try Gustav Le Bon's two books

>>19889858
While there is indeed a meeting point between crowd and individual psychologies, I think the question is far stronger when it's approached from individuality rather than the collective. A crowd is manipulated into doing things by individuals who are already 'unhinged', therefore the origin point of the behavior always lies outside of it.

It's a good book, but I don't think it does a good job at explaining the origin point - the individual.

You said there are 2 books though, the first one is obviously 'The Crowd', but what's the other one? Guy had like 30-40 books. Is it the one that goes into racial soul?

>>19882263
boredom

>>19889654
Midwit liberals are of the same stock who committed all atrocities and witch burnings in history. They think they can control the future, which is why they believe in nonsense like retirement.

>>19882392
>Like the ones cheering on as adults and children are being burned alive in Come And See. What's the reasoning behind it?
The fact that it's a fictional movie.

>>19885891
of what

>>19887171
Hey, goodmorning!

There was no concession. All these things are in your head.

>>19885884
The same sentence could be applied to uncle A

>>19887580
Yes, luck is an aspect of meritocracy.

>>19882263

Total depravity.

>>19882719
We're always weak delusional animals

>>19882392
Those depicted in film were part of the Dirlewanger Brigrade; a unit that was made by Himmler comprised of first incarcerated poachers (the idea being that their skills in hunting would correlate to rooting out partisans) to then escalating to mental asylum patients, violent criminals, and homosexuals and concentration camp victims.
They wore uniforms stripped of any honors and were used as the most expendable manpower possible. With the brigade getting destroyed with roughly 80% fatal casualties twice against the Soviets. In the Warsaw uprising they took 400% casualties because they die, then Dirlewanger would use local Polish concentration camp prisoners to refill his ranks.

TL;DR
these were the most unhinged bastards Hitler had at his disposal so that is why they are depicted that way

>>19882263
Heart of darkness?

>>19882263
I havent read this but i bought it years ago and use it to prop up my baby monitor so it gets a better angle into the crib

>>19891509

>>19891509
he claims this is his masterpiece, i dont think anyone has actually read it

>>19882392
>There has to be more than that.
Sometimes, that's all there is. Indoctrination and ideological immersion are powerful things. You are projecting your own morality onto people depicted in the film who are in a bestial, tribal state. A pack of organized hunters with murderous intent and weapons to manifest it. Under the right circumstances, almost anyone could fall under that spell.

>>19893940
Or the belief in self defense. If you believe you are being attacked by an entity that wants to destroy you, it is very easy to root for your team beating the other team

>>19882392
conscience is the most important thing for preventing boundless cruelty, right next to empathy. unfortunately, it can easily be replaced with a falsehood, an artificial set of values fabricated by someone else. look into books on propaganda.

>>19895057
Revolutionary though; have you considered that conscience may be selective? As in one individual feels conscience when he has something to do with individuals he loves and respects, and feels nothing if he has do with savages and enemies?

>>19882392
War is hell. Simple as.

You got brainlets on /pol/ saying we need a war to make things better but it don't.

>>19882295
>Philip Shorts biography of Pol Pot.
Seconding this, good book. The curious thing I remember Short arguing about Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge is that part of the reason they were so brutal was that centuries of Cambodian Buddhism had inured everyone into accepting that suffering and the body are meaningless illusions.

>>19895926
War is hell, but it is necessary at times. Revolt against tyranny and oppression comes to mind, or against corruption from spiritually and morally bankrupt individuals etc.

It's a perspective that carries many hidden themes as well. People who want to have a war are those who hate society because they see it for what it is. Those who don't want war see society differently, or even how it is like the first group, but because they have a vested interest - "I can't live without this society because I am weak and will get naturally selected against, or I have it too good in this society why reset it now" - in keeping the status que.

>>19891466
>homosexuals and concentration camp victims.
fags, jews and gypses, huh. that sounds quite disturbing.

>>19896462
b-but "muh 6 gorrilion"!??!?!??!?!?

>>19882263
My Fuck Journal Desu.

>>19882263
In seven pillars of wisdom, lawrence ordered the massacre of a turkish division after seeing a whole village burned, women raped and staked, children crying and melting and seeing his own soldier run off to his death for his village. Before that, they always took the wounded turkish men as POW.

>>19882263
Someone post the edited version where he is fat and smiling

Read Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil. It is eye-opening.

>>19882263
Some people just want to have some fun