/lit/ - Literature

It requires only a general survey of his works to realize that Ibn al-Arabi managed to combine in himself the genious and resources of the philosopher, the poet, the traumaturge, the occultist, the theologian and the practical ascetic. He combines the scholastic expertise of Ghazali with the poetic imagery of Ibn al-Farid, the metaphysical daring of al-Hallaj with the stringent orthodoxy of Muhasibi, abstract categories of the Neoplatonists with the dramatic imagination of Rumi, and the abstruse science of the Kabbalist with the practical wisdom of the spiritual guide.

>>19852687

Also why is this particular day singled out when Allah owns everything ? Because on this day it will be vividly manifested, people will be frozen unable to do much as move their tongue and their body parts will speak against their will. There will be no rulers, no owners except Allah and it will be clear and plain the whole universe is His property and completely powerless to be punished or rewarded without so much as a right to scream without His permission

>>19852705
I think you’re confusing Ibn Al-Arabi with Ibn Arabi

Am I allowed to read this if I'm not a muslim?

>>19852750
Yeah the prohibition on carrying mushaf among the lands of kuffar is out of concern they will do wicked things to it it bringing wrath on them, similar to the problem with insulting pagan gods which Quran says don’t do because then they will retaliate by insulting Allah in ignorance. Nonbelievers being exposed to Quran otherwise is considered good and Muslims are enjoined to convey it to them

>>19852777
>similar to the problem with insulting pagan gods which Quran says don’t do because then they will retaliate by insulting Allah in ignorance

which verse is this?

>>19852900
6:108

>>19852932
thanks

>>19852687
For the sake of people ignorant of islamic eschatology and cosmology, what is the significance of a cosmic day? Is that simply the longest period of time expressible with the number system of the time?

>>19852951
Sure

>>19852969
It’s not entirely clear but it seems to me from Quran it’s a day in another heaven, other heavenly days are described as other lengths as a day of angels traveling which is described as very long in Quran. According to Tabari and Ibn Kathir these are the days of the creation of the earth or something of other great length rather than six days of solar length which they consider a weaker opinion based on evidence they quote

>>19852994
I ask because improbably large numbers seem to be evocative rather than descriptive in other religions, like Sandalphons height or the idiom for "everything" in taoism. Having a specific number like 50,000 could be a rhetorical device.

Tell us about your spiritual path, OP. People say that you have changed from religion to religion several times.

>>19853603
I used to be Orthodox. I wasn’t aware people are chatting about me somewhere

>>19854081
You were in prison, then you became known as a Hegelian, then as a Neoplatonist, then as a lover of Parmenides and Heraclitus, then you came to Orthodoxy, and now you have converted to Wahhabi Islam and are going to go to Afghanistan to the Taliban. What's next?

Kys faggot

>>19854103
I was a Hegelian for a long time. I was never a Neoplatonist despite engaging with Plato and Neoplatonists. I’ve always been more partial to Heraclitus than Parmenides. Who exactly is talking about me because I’m not interested in supplying information to an informant for a profile

>>19854142
All your posts can be easily googled, they have remained in the archives of the Internet. You tell the world about yourself. Your reputation as a spiritual wanderer leads people to think that Islam is not the final stop on this path.

Which non-Islamic thinkers interest you right now?

>>19854153
I asked you a question which I meant in earnest because I have dealt with such irl and I have to interest in answering you if you can’t answer me

>>19854159
The people on this site know quite a lot about you. You were quite famous before your conversion to Islam.

>>19854195
That doesn’t answer my question which shouldn’t be difficult to answer if you are not up to something fishy. Why are you evading it?

>>19854212
If you're inviting people to Discord, then you probably have nothing to hide, right? Your internet activity is well documented by web crawlers and you have nothing to worry about.

>>19852687
There are no better autists I can ask than on here, so as someone who's still not fully read up on the Sahih hadiths, what do you guys think about Bukhari 3896/5133 and Muslim 1422b?

Quite frankly Muhammad having intercourse with a 9 year old is throwing me off and made me look up the hadith the second I read it, leading to a lot of questions about his life, and the supposed will of Allah.
I've heard several arguments implying Aisha was actually 18 because of her participation with Muhammed in the siege of Badr (not sure if i'm remembering correctly, might be confusing it for another), but it sounds like mental gymnastics considering three different hadiths in two different collections say the exact same +- a year. Al-Sunan al-Sughra also implies she was born in 614, so absolutely nothing is adding up to me, it just sounds like cope and deflection to me.

Some also imply that 9 year olds were basically adults (???) in that age because of the hardships of life, which I also have a really hard time believing.
Is this just my human social ideas of morality being confused with the will of the creator (i.e human laws vs. Allah)? Did Muhammad actually admit Aisha to his house when she was just 9 years old?
Help me out bros

>>19854236
https://web.archive.org/web/20200606133250/pastebin.com/2CJrErSe

>>19854236
What you're seeing here is modern influence on your morality. If you can't stomach even this, you wouldn't be able to stomach the rest of this religion's precepts on account of your indoctrination by feminist western media. That said, Aisha (ra) loved Muhammad (pbuh) and spent her life after his death supporting his work. She said nothing but good things about him, and before you say she lacked autonomy, one of her well-known traits in the tradition is that she was the most outspoken of all of Muhammad's companions (pbuh); she would not be quiet when something she didn't like occurred. She had the most audacity in the face of the Prophet (pbuh), and she was incredibly jealous of him.
>Aisha was actually 18
Lol. What're you going to do if she was actually 17? or 16? or 15? or 14? or 11? You have no standard metric beyond the secular age of consent laws that a lot of people don't even follow anyway. Let Islam be your metric, as it is truly Allah's religion.

>>19854428
>Let Islam be your metric, as it is truly Allah's religion.
nonce

>>19854428
What does that even mean? Are you a pedo apologist?

>>19854236
Aisha being 9 is only said in Sunni sources. Shias reject this.

Quran is the Walmart version of The Bible. Seethe neckbeards

>>19855253
I've not seen a Muslim make fun of the Bible, but I've seen plenty of 'Christians' do so of the Quran. I don't think this is a teaching of Jesus, anon. Where have you learned this?

>>19855280
I'm a different anon, but I think it's obvious: for Muslims, the Bible is a holy book, and for Christians, the Quran isn't a holy book. Heretical books like the Quran deserve condemnation. Someone's condemnation is manifested in an ironic form.

>>19855462
The Bible in its current form as organized by the Christian churches isn't really a holy book for Muslims. It's a weak narrative of Jesus that is full of falsehood that promotes idolatry. This is the reason why we don't mock other faiths:

"Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation have We made their deed seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return, and He will tell them what they used to do." (Quran 6:108)

>>19855556
It's a pity that you're a heretic. I wish you to come to the true faith.

>>19855556
Repent.
Your desert strawgoat has no power here.

>>19855565
>>19855582
May I ask what church or denomination you follow?

>>19854236
Gibbon (who considered Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم a salacious fraud أستغفر الله ) just commented that maturation is earlier in that climate and didn’t consider it especially remarkable though he lived in a time when Europe had a pretty young age of marriage as well. A’isha رضي الله عنها married at a normal age for her time and place and that is why she was literally the only virgin Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم married. Pretty much every woman was married by twelve and not unmarried unless divorced or widowed. If he had some particular propensity for children they would have been most of his wives (which would be the norm) instead of just a single one he was commanded to marry

>>19855242
By this you mean you reject A’isha’s رضي الله عنها account as her lying. Whereas Sunnis believe her. No need to dress it up as “Sunni sources”

>>19855462
The Greek Gospels are not a holy boom for us. The Quran refers to Nasara, Nazarenes, techno, not masiyoon, Christians. The Gospel the Arabs had was Hebrew and the Greek ones were not available in Arabic until after the Muslim conquests

See
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3

>>19855582
I hope that God will enlighten you and guide you on the true path.

>>19855586
Russian Orthodox Church.

>>19855611
What is the language of the original church?

>>19855611
sorry for my ignorance and this seems out of topic, but I'd like to ask what is the main difference between Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox? Is it like Shia and Sunni in Islam?

>>19855630
No nowhere near that close. The closest analogy to Shia for Christians would be Mormons or Moonies

>>19855638
Shia Islam has nothing to do with those religions. The closest in Christianity would be the extremely rare variant of Rosicrucian esotericism.

>>19855638
what are those? aren't all three christian religions I mentioned before worship Jesus? what makes them different? Also are all of them use the same bible?

>>19855556
What about Taurat of Moses that mentioned in Quran? Is it the same Torah/Hebrew Bible used by Jew?

>>19855627

>>19855630
The Catholics changed the creed, introduced the primacy of the pope, and so on. Protestants refused to compare their faith with the teachings of the Church Fathers.

The _main_ difference is that the Orthodox belong to the tradition of Christ and the apostles, while the rest of the denominations have departed from it. But I cannot judge whether they will be saved.

Read picrel if you want to know more. Or this - https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Kallist_Uer/the-orthodox-way/

>>19852687
I'm not Muslim, but my dad is a Koranist and as a consequence he is not as retarded as other Muslims. Also, it would have been better if Iran remained Hanafi, which would have more geopolitical benefit. This whole Shia vs Sunni bullshit is just a cover-up for geopolitical dominance, which is not purely rooted in ethnicity either as /pol/ brainlets argue.
Muslims are retarded. If they had half a brain, they would be able to figure out that Islam is logically only a conflict between Quranists, who treat its words as coeternal with God, or Mu'tazilites, who reject the Koran as coeternal with God.
Mu'tazilites were obviously correct and would have led to a saner Middle East and Central Asia; not exactly in a liberal way, but in a way that doesn't involve beheading those for apostasy or whatever and where experiential insight is treated as equally if not more important than archaic texts.
Stupid low-IQ and inbred trash. My dad is not the sharpest tool in the basket, but even he was able to logically infer this shit from studying the Koran deeply. Contemporary Islam is largely a modern invention.

>>19855662
All of them worship Jesus, with the exception of the recent group Jehovah's Witness. Catholics and Orthodox each believe their own church is the true church founded by apostles. Protestants reject the need for a church altogether and believe the Bible suffices as the religious authority. An interesting thing to be mentioned is that Salafism is heavily, heavily, influenced by Protestant methodology of textual authority. At this point we might even call it a protestant import.

>>19855761
>Salafism is heavily, heavily, influenced by Protestant methodology of textual authority
Why do you think so? Is there any information about whether at least some Salafi preachers of the 18th and 19th centuries are familiar with the teachings of Protestantism?

>>19855703
It is a central belief in Islam (or in Shia Islam at any rate) that the Prophets are morally Infallible. If a man is not thoroughly tested and purified by God, he will not be chosen as a Prophet. But we see in the Jewish Torah that the Prophets committ all sorts of awful acts and are nowhere near infallible (David's adultery come to mind). Therefore we conclude there are a lot of fabrications inserted in the Torah.

>>19855792
>It is a central belief in Islam (or in Shia Islam at any rate) that the Prophets are morally Infallible.
Not in the Koran. Would literally be called idolatry. Stupid low-IQ trash. Older Islam was a conflict between Koranists and Mu'tazilites. The hadiths were not seen as important as much as they are now. Modern Islam is a contemporary invention, which may have occurred gradually after Mongolian invasions and Safavid shenanigans.
Shia shouldn't even be considered a branch of Islam. It doesn't make sense in relationship to the Koran.

Thoughts on this?

7:62:64

>>19855812
There is a lot of weird stuff, brudda >>19854247

>>19854247
based I'll use these when talking to my muslim co-workers who I debate with during shifts.

>>19855811
The Quran says God purified the Prophet and his family (33:33). In early Islam Shias were instructed by the Infallible Imams to dissimulate among the majority and not participate in those confilcts and focus on spiritual purification instead.

>>19855791
If you study both, it becomes obvious as they share a lot of similarities. Protestants also have these autistic fixations on iconoclasm and intercession being idolatry that Salafis have inherited.

>>19855835
>In early Islam Shias were instructed by the Infallible Imams to dissimulate among the majority and not participate in those confilcts and focus on spiritual purification instead.
This is what I am talking about as being idolatry. The Koran never says to worship imams, which many Shia do.
Have you read the Koran? Older Islam was largely a conflict between Mu'tazilites vs Koranists. There's no need to make retarded schisms when the religion is so direct and clear. Either the Koran is co-eternal with God or not. Hadiths and contention regarding families or whatever were seen as extraneous and not self-defining.

>>19855856
No Shia 'worships' the Imams (except minor heretical sects, but in this context I am talking about Twelverism). The Imams are men of great spiritual rank who are guided by God (al-Mahdi) and sent to guide the people towards Him (al-Hadi). As it is inconceivable that God will leave His people on their own without a divinely guided leader.
>Either the Koran is co-eternal with God or not.
Shias maintain a compatibilist position.

>>19855855
But similarities do not mean influence.

>>19855894
Anything that was not explicitly in the Koran was rejected by past historical Muslims as false or not important. The Koranists and Mu'tazilites are, unironically, closer to the spirit of early Islam. Moreover, the Hellenized Muslims were probably more influenced by Mu'tazilah until Al-Ghazali and others changed that.
>Shias maintain a compatibilist position.
There is no compatibilist position in regards to how a supposedly divine text is treated.
The very earliest Muslims also debated the nature of God, but ultimately they agreed that God's nature was inconceivable and beyond any worldly description. Some very early schools argued God was a mixture of all animals, but that was largely rejected by all Muslims.
Modern Shia vs Sunni is largely based on historical reivisionism, and it is philosophically nonsense in lieu of the traditions fundamental and kernel claims. The debate between Koranists and Mu'tazilites, on the other hand, made sense.

>>19855943
>in lieu of
in light of*

>>19855943
And divine unity (Tawheed)*
Islam was honestly not meant to be that complicated to understand. It's in the Koran...

>>19855750
>Koranist
>This whole Shia vs Sunni bullshit is just a cover-up for geopolitical dominance
Based
>Mu'tazilites were obviously correct
No wonder you're not muslim kek

>>19855750
And what is your religion?

>>19856007
Mahayana Buddhism.
>>19855994
Teachings only exist to provide skillful means (upaya) to reach the One Vehicle (Ekayana).

>>19855943
Quranism was a fringe position--even if it was a position--until in 20th century western and western educated scholars decided centuries old tradition of Islam is wrong and Sola Scriptura is better. Again, early Shias were instructed not to participate in the debates between mu'tazilites and ash'arites as it was seen by the Imams as futile and a fitnah among the Muslims. The use of hadith was prominent from the time of the rashidun caliphs (who justified their actions by reciting narations) until the present day. Quranism makes no sense at all because: first, the Quran commands you to pray salat, but the details of salat is not mentioned in the Quran; one can learn it only from hadith. Second, the Qur'an itself instructs to obey the Prophet (24:54); the hadith is the only means to do that.
>There is no compatibilist position in regards to how a supposedly divine text is treated.
It is treated as the word of God. Simple as.
>>19856026
We recognize you from your constant insults when you were a 'Zoroastrian' and after you became 'Buddhist'. If you have found the truth, what is the reason for your obsession with your Islam? Why do you see the need to constantly insult Islam and Muslims?

>>19856154
>It is treated as the word of God. Simple as.
If it is the word of God, then only reliance on it solely and not the imams is preferable, you dumb revisionist faggot. You're just relying on obscurantist language to utilize a weird kind of mental gymnastics. Early Muslims were largely debating Quranists vs Mutzalites themes.
It's debatable if Shia is even really Islamic, considering its tenets go against what's right in front of your face. The hadiths were not treated on the same level of thr Koran and even the imams and various Islamic teachers were treated as fallible. Hadiths were not seen as that important.
It would have been better if Iran were Hanafi while leaning towards either Koranism or Mutzala.
>We recognize you from your constant insults when you were a 'Zoroastrian' and after you became 'Buddhist'.
I was a Buddhist before Zoroastrianism. I was misguided with my interest in Zoroastrianism. However, I never got into Zoroastrianism due to ethnic or ancestral reasons. I got into it as a way to oppose the modernization of figures like Ziporyn or Stephen Batchelor who just twist Mahayana Buddhism to become antinomian and nihilistic. I thought the only way to oppose this was to push for some kind of latent, rudimentary form of dualism, but I realized this doesn't work and Amitabha Buddha appeared to me in a dream, encouraging me to read the Lotus Sutra. I read the Lotus Sutra and saw I had worked backwards in some ways (i.e., I had read other key Mahayana Sutras and would have been better off starting with the Lotus as Tientai and Tendai schools make clear). Ziporyn or Stephen Batchelor disingenuously try to force Mahayana to be compatible with physicalist or materialist biases, and this adharma leads to nihilistic implications. Rebirth after the cessation of bodily functions is true, and Bodhisattvas are entangled beyond time and space and have supernatural powers.
>If you have found the truth, what is the reason for your obsession with your Islam? Why do you see the need to constantly insult Islam and Muslims?
I dislike Shia more than I do Koranists or Muetzalites. I respect the Muetzalites the most though. I also think Hanafi makes a bit more sense than Shia.
Shia makes Iran look stupid and weaker especially when its Central Asian brothers are alienated. In some sense, Shia are kuffar who reject Tawheed.
I agree with my father here. I am not a Persian nationalist.

>country turns islamic
>becomes a shithole

do muslims truly not see the picture here?

>>19856272
>If it is the word of God, then only reliance on it solely and not the imams is preferable
The Qur'an commands to obey the Prophet (24:54) and the Prophet announced the Imam after him.
>It's debatable if Shia is even really Islamic
It is no business of yours, is it? Shias believe in Allah and his Prophet and follow the Islamic law closely. That is enough for most Muslims to consider them as their own. Non-Muslims are not in charge of what is "really Islamic."
>I was a Buddhist before Zoroastrianism
Frankly, I don't care. Didn't ask, didn't read.

I don't care to engage with you any further. Your reputation is known to anyone who frequents these threads.

>>19856350
>It is no business of yours, is it?
I am repeating the arguments of my father.
>Frankly, I don't care. Didn't ask, didn't read.
You did ask though, idiot.
Anyone who actually reads the Koran deeply will come out with similar views as my father. You're just low-IQ, inbred morons.

>>19855163
>Are you a pedo apologist
I'm a cunnysuer.

>>19856341
Read the Kuran!

>>19856350
Most Sunnis hate Shiites.

>>19856656
Only if you restrict Sunnis to Saudi Wahhabis.

>>19856700
No, Turkish, Kurdish, Albanian, Syrian and Egyptian Sunnis hate Shiites a lot. Shiites do wars and conspiracies against Sunnis. Shiites even created their own hadith.

>>19856737
Believe what you want of course, but this is false. Shias have their own separate tradition of hadith.

>>19856783
Fake tradition of fake hadith

>>19855655
Uh no. Shiaism would be like Christians who say Peter, Mary Magdalene and Paul conspired against John to usurp his authority

>>19855662
It’s not really important, they’re always revising their beliefs anyway

>>19855703
The Torah is considered to have been somewhat altered especially to make fun of prophets or insult them which Jews were known for resenting for even killing but it’s held to be a modification of the original unlike the Greek Gospels which are more derivative works

>>19855709
Well there goes the nationalism your sect prizes

>>19855750
The Mutazilla were the most dogmatic and intolerant sect of Islam in history, they tortured and imprisoned or killed anyone who refused to accept their creed

>>19855761
Salafism is literally just ahl al-hadith. An analogy for Protestantism is more Quranists

>>19855811
The Quran commands obedience to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as an example and prophets in general, they are clearly infallible in the sense of their teachings. This does not mean they don’t make mistakes however

>>19855812
>>19855610

>>19855894
you think the last Imam has been hiding for hundreds of years. So how is he giving guidance and leadership?

>>19856341
Care to give an example?

>>19856700
No. Saladin literally banned the Shia athan. Egypt used to be Shia, he converted it to Sunnism by suppressing the sect. I mean the Safavids genocided Sunnis and the Ottomans made takfir of many Shia

>>19856788
Are you talking about sunni's or shia's here? I honestly don't see how that statement doesn't apply to both

>>19857725
Probably 99% of Sunni Hadith are bogus, but then were are a lot more circumspect about which ones meet the standards for use. Despite being ten times as many adherents as the Shia our six major Hadith collections (which are a very small portion of total Hadiths) put together are smaller than single most major Shia collection, and of those six we considered many weak Hadiths to be in every collection except Bukhari and Muslim

>>19857798
To top this off btw Shia reject 90% of the Companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as sources and write off much of the sound hadiths from the others as taqiyyah so they’re left with an enormous number of Hadiths despite a tiny number of sources

>>19857798
Sunni narrations only cover the narrations that occurred in the span of Prophethood which only lasted 22 years. Shi'i narrations cover those in addition to the narrations from the next subsequent 12 Imams, which means they cover 3 more centuries of narrations. Of course Shi'ism is bound to have more narrations. Also after the time when practice of recording of narrations began, there were scribes to write down the words of the Imams on the spot. There weren't any scribes in the time of the Prophet so of course it means less narrations.
>>19857599
>the last Imam
The role of the Imam is primarily spiritual leadership, not political. He need not be the one in power nor does he need to present himself to the eyes. Whoever seeks him, he will find his guidance. He is absent from the eyes but to the hearts. He is a daily reality in the spiritual life of Shias, so much so that one suspects other sects have no real spirituality at all. Though there are reports of the times when the Imam (or one of his companions) appeared and intervened in the affairs of his Shias but those exceptions. Again, it is not possible for the world to be a without man who is the link between God and man, who is God's proof upon His creation and His guardian to whoever professes to worship Him.

>>19857798
Also, a lot of Shi'i narrations from the Prophet are narrated from the Imam who has heard it from his father, his father from his grandfather until it reaches the Prophet himself. Bukhari made a decision of not narrating a single narration from Imam Ja'far Sadiq, who was known by Shias and Sunnis alike to be the most knowledgeable scholar of the time.

>>19858056
But that’s completely wrong lol. Sunni narrations cover a lot more than that, especially they cover the Rashidun but there are a lot more. It’s just (unsurprisingly) we don’t equate them with revelation unlike sunnah

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم actually did have scribes. He prohibited writing his words during the Meccan period but permitted it after.

Shiasm is literally a political party at least in root. Their whole gripe is about who has political authority

>>19858124
It was Bukhari’s practice not to narrate from anyone who ever just said “the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said x” without giving a chain or saying who heard it. This is part of his extreme strictness. Jaf’ar was considered a great jurist but he sometimes used mursal narrations which Bukhari steered clear from

>>19858129
>especially they cover the Rashidun but there are a lot more.
I highly doubt this. Who would you be narrating about during the time of Abbasids? Who would be so important to Sunnis during that time as Imams were to Shias?
>Shiasm is literally a political party at least in root
This is a misconception of people ignorant of Shi'ism. The important thing is the spiritual authority--wilayah--which does cover politics but much, much more than just politics.

>>19858142
Obviously Imam Ja'far heard it from his father who heard it from his father and grand father. Let's write his genealogy: Ja'far ibn Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib. These things are obvious. Your excuses are becoming more and more ridiculous.

>>19857599
>Care to give an example?
Why? So you can use islamic reasoning (formerly orthodox) to say it wasn't a good example?

egypt was the breadbasket of the roman empire and since the arrival of the Arabs, who weren't agriculturalists, lost its grain output.

>>19858147
It’s part of our historiography as well as preserving rulings, habits and important biographies.

The whole Shia sect is rooted in the idea Ali was swindled out of power and his family oppressed by tyrants (which to be sure they were, but that started with Yazid). It’s innately, intensely political. There was just massive cognitive dissonance and confusion among the rafida when their proclaimed imam Jafar said he did not have any claim to khilafah

>>19858157
No not obviously. Imam Jafar narrated a lot of things and to say he heard all through that chain and it alone is not obvious and makes no sense, no narrator only narrated from his father who narrated so forth in only one chain and it would be irresponsible for any muhaddith to presume that

>>19858161
Better yet: Iran.

>>19858179
You are exposing your lack of knowledge of Shi'ism. As I said, the important thing is wilayah. The claims of Abu Bakr and his friends to khilafah made the majority of Muslims leave the wilayah of the Ahlul Bayt. This is the problem. After the martyrdom of Husayn the Imams consistently stayed away from politics and instructed his Shias to stay away from politics. Ali and his sons also were not after power itself--which is why Ali rejected the suggestion of his Shias to rebel. But I have waisted enough of my time with your pointless arguments.

>>19858189
He did say he heard it from his fathers when he narrated such a narration.

>>19858161
The Arabs didn’t suddenly take over the farming or administration of it, in fact Umar forbade this because he said fake them turn from war as their profession, so I’m not sure where you’re going with this

>>19858235
Yes sometimes and not always with a complete chain and then not necessarily reported from Jafar by a reliable chain.

>>19858239
>fake them turn from war as their profession
i don't get it, explain please?

>>19858239
Their goats grazed the flora away until it was a shithole.

>>19855280
it's because christians actually read both and guess what, they actually understand certain things.
you on the opposite you worship it without understanding it.
also: stop using the same argument over and over
>we muslims don't do x so why do you do to us
bring real critique or shut up monkey

>be mohammad, adopt a random kid named Zaid as your son
>treat him like shit all your life
>grows up to accept his fate and marrys a girl named zaynab
>harass your daughter in law everytime your son leaves the house
>everyone knows it and trying to overlook
>zaynab tells his husband that he keeps coming when he's out of house and talking sexually to her
>finally forces his stepson to divorce her so he can fuck her
>tells everyone else that his son begged him to take her as his wife but that he refused since the daughter in law has literally the same position as a real daughter
>updates everyone that allah forced him with a new law to take his step sons wife as his new chick
>fucks zaynab while he's married to 9yo aisha !
>people gather at the pedo prophet curiously and ask him what's going on
>he brings up new rules immediately just to justify his actions
>but to prevent others from doing so too he adds up more divine rules "i may, you not...fear allah bye"
you can literally read the truth if you follow the new rules he's making up chronologically just to justify and safe his own perverted ass lol it's hillarious.

Just look at these people from today...how fucked up must they have been back then ?!?!
and this picrel is a "moderate" search....

fuck your quran

>>19858294
I meant he didn’t want Muslim men getting into agriculture and then they’d abandon occupational preoccupation with being warrriors

>>19858881
He wasn’t a random kid, he was his wife’s slave

Zaynab رضي الله عنها was the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم cousin and absolutely did not want to be marry Zayd رضي الله عنه because he an ex slave and she was of a very high order bloodline

Basically the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم pressured her too.

She was a very domineering woman and at forty years old she got divorced (Zayd had divorced multiple wives before).

At this point the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم married her and if he was eager to he could have much more easily married her before pressuring her into marrying Zayd

He didn’t harass or keep talking to her, there is absolutely no Hadith suggesting that

He didn’t change the rules for everybody else it’s just in Arabia then you changed paternity with adoption in the same way you do with birth certificates in America, this is what is called a “legal fiction” in western parlance but a no in Shariah in multiple things not just here. Raising an orphan is still extremely commendable and compared to jihad in reward in Hadiths

>>19854428
I can understand why a muslim 100% indoctrinated by Islam and committed to believing their religion is the definition of virtue might think that way, but I will not. I know for a fact that children are still children even in the year 621, and that having intercourse with one to "admit them to your house" at that age is nothing but pedophilia and exploitation that serves zero purpose other than to satisfy lust.

There is no standard metric, the ones we have are all arbitrary cutoff points to make sure you're not fucking a child who are not aware of the consequences of their actions or understand the intimate nature of the act. Though that doesn't mean there isn't a certain age range that is mentally mature and biologically ready, objectively speaking.

>>19855610
What makes you compare a divine figure in Islam and the "role model for all muslims" to what commoners in Europe did at that time? Aren't the laws and commandments of Allah timeless? I don't really care about marriage, but exploiting the body of a child is completely off-putting to me.

>>19859859
>who are not aware of the consequences of their actions or understand the intimate nature of the act
Good grief, do you honestly think this applies to the average girl who loses her virginity today? And we’re talking about a tile when boys not much older than her were going to war and getting killed. Your conception of sexuality is not only completely removed from how it functions in the natural world (where is necessary *must* precede all these considerations), it’s removed from function in a culture where fathers murdering their daughters was an epidemic because it was impossible to even support them long enough to get them a husband. Men would literally cry if their wives gave birth to girls because it was seen as such a financial set back that could bring down their family until that is Islam widely stamped out the practice. In an environment of great hardship you grow up fast, and I have no doubt in my mind that A’isha رضي الله عنها was mature at nine than girls of today are at sixteen. I have no doubt that she was wiser, had better character, and understood the nature of life and death, commitment, duty, responsibility, suffering and sex better than they do. In short she was in a meaningful sense more of a woman than they are, and perhaps even more of one than many women at thirty are today who would probably breakdown if they had to deal with even a fraction of the expectations of a child then, and A’isha رضي الله عنها would have to be the one pushing them to get up and continue.

>>19860584
>Good grief, do you honestly think this applies to the average girl who loses her virginity today?
What do you think you're proving here exactly?
Your stance is infantile and based in hypocrisy; every time islam gets criticism you deflect and point fingers to the west/christianity and say "they do X too!" as if that makes it any better.

>>19852687
Can someone post the most divine passages from the Qu'ran? I read it and actively despised it. I'm a Christian FWIW

>>19860584
>and I have no doubt in my mind that A’isha رضي الله عنها was mature at nine than girls of today are at sixteen
There is no such thing even in the most desolate shitholes of today. From the way you're arguing, I can tell you have at least a little bit of reasoning left as you're trying to justify it with a historical context (even though it's false). Most muslims would just say that it's fine because allah said so.

>>19860681
There is nothing divine in the Quran.

Also the Hadiths paint a real portrait of a man whom Muslims consider to be 'the most perfect being who ever lived'. Read this >>19854247

>>19860685
Islam is a scary thing

https://www.google.com/search?q=50+year+old+man&tbm=isch
https://www.google.com/search?q=9+year+old+girl&tbm=isch

>>19860698
>There is nothing divine in the Quran.
Prove this.

>>19860674
I don’t just mean the west I mean in any country, in fact others even more than the west. Your norm is not a reality because it’s not and never ever had been normal for a girl to lose her virginity only after becoming a thoughtful and mature woman whom you would trust with full adult responsibilities. It’s not just part of how society works for any species because this conception of sexuality as special activity requiring advanced mental maturity is just natural or workable. Retards have sex and no one cares

>>19860681
Here is something short
https://youtu.be/YaOZS4ZoRY8

>>19860685
Ashari subscribe to divine command theory but both Atharis/Salafis and Maturidis subscribe to natural law theory

>>19860719
>Your norm is not a reality because it’s not and never ever had been normal for a girl to lose her virginity only after becoming a thoughtful and mature woman whom you would trust with full adult responsibilities.
Physical maturity, too , anon. The "she's mature for her age" is the pedo justification of choice. You have so far not clarified why Aisha would have been ready for intercourse despite being 9.

>>19860719
what do you think of the doctrine of kasb?

>>19852687
seek Christ brother

>>19860737
>why Aisha would have been ready for intercourse despite being 9.
Not him, but she was pubescent. In a hadith somewhere, she says that she believes girls turn into women at the age of nine, and in another, she explicitly says that she reached puberty at the age of nine, when she began living with the Prophet.

>>19860705
Hinduism has a much higher rate of child marriage than Islam and it’s also sanctioned by their religion but you will never see griping about this as it’s not about child marriage, when it comes down to it people in the west don’t find it that repulsive or if they do it’s for very cosmetic reasons. Westerners have no qualms about subscribing to Netflix which promoted a film about sexualizing little Muslim girls and see this as justifiable entertainment but will cry over such girls being married instead of pumped out. It’s such a bad faith argument, no one here is actually outraged or scared, it’s like a woman who pretends to be really upset over something she isn’t upset about because of she revealed what was actually bothering her she fears it wouldn’t be taken seriously or she would be embarrassed

>>19860712
This book was created by an Arab criminal engaged in robberies and murders. It's you who must prove the Quran's claim to divinity.

>>19860747
Post it. Not that it changes anything though. There's a reason having intercourse with precociously mature minors doesn't hold up in court.

>>19860719
Dang. It really is the Arabic version that just sings. Any new takes you enjoy in particular? Any additional Surahs?

>>19860748
Why do you always refer to someone else? Some Hindus are just as perverted as Mohammed.

>>19860737
So if a woman was mentally mature but her body has a deficiency that prevented puberty it would make sexuality wrong for her? Sexuality in one form or another actually starts developing early on it’s just we don’t become hormonal goats until later

>>19860740
hair splitting

>>19860754
You can find it yourself. Also, child marriage is still legal in the vast majority of states in the US, so it would hold up in court if there was a marriage contract agreed upon by the parents and the judge. You probably didn't know that, which is why you're holding up judicial authority as moral authority with confidence.

>>19860756
To clarify: What does the prophet say that I don't get from the OT/NT?

>>19860774
You will find out that he was not very familiar with the contents of the Bible. For example, he had no idea about the doctrine of the Trinity, thinking that Christians declared Mary to be part of the Trinity. He just saw the icons and made such an absurd conclusion.

hey so I'm reading the Quran (surah XXV) but I find it difficult to find some practical teachings, for example in the Gospels Jesus teachings can be used in everyday day's life.
I don't want to sound disrespectful (I respect Islam as the last monotheistic religion that is still true to itself, unlike Christianity) but how can I apply Quran in my everyday life?
also what is a good version of the Hadits?

>>19860770
You made a claim, it's expected you now provide a source out of respect for the other person's time. If you cannot do that, I won't consider the argument based on that claim.

>>19860780
The second Surah of the Quran is a direct response to the Trinity what are you talking about retard? And the Quran doesnt say Mary was apart of the Trinity, it says she was worshipped along with Jesus, which is true.

>>19860780
Dude the first 1/4 he just compliments the Jewish God and the commandments from Moses. What's new? I don't think Islam is bad per se, but it seems at the very best redundant at the worst heresy

>>19860753
How is it robbery or murder to fight people who are at war with you?

>>19860756
I like the longest, Al Baqarah, a lot, but partly because I’ve studied it enough to know the complexity of its meanings and rhythm. It’s the second Surah so إن شاء الله we’ll go over it in the near future. I gave you one that’s shorter and has a tighter structure but even that has a lot of nuance you can’t gather in English. Here is a bit I wrote before on the one you heard

> Things to note: the rhyming syllable for the first several verses is "ha", but the h here is ح. Now Arabic features three different h's, one like English, represented as ه. One harsh, represented as خ (this is the one used by western conservatives to pronounce Ahmed but actually Ahmed uses ح). And this one, ح. It's the h you use when you're panting or blowing on glasses. To discerning ears it's repetition is very evocative of snorting horses. This is in keeping with it being used as the rhyming syllable for the scene of a raid (specifically in jihad according to scholars). This scene itself evokes something else: when Muhammad ﷺ first warned his tribe openly, he called out the alarm, "Wa sabahah!". Normally this alarm is for a dawn raid, the enemy would ride in and light the village on fire and massacre anyone they could find, they attacked at dawn, it was a common wartime strategy (it was very terrifying, think of the raid on the village in Apocalypto but with horses). Everyone poured out in fright and Muhammad ﷺ warned them about idolatry and how they must worship Allah alone or else they would go to hell. You can probably imagine the response he got. Anyway after the description of the chargers, the judgement is talked about, the rhymed words are "breast" and "grave" (for the resurrection), which instantly connects the idea of uncovering the hidden secrets of the heart like a corpse, "the skeletons in the closet".

>>19860782
The full practice of Islam is impossible. There isn't a single country that practicing Muslims would recognize as fully Islamic. Islamists are always unhappy and whining. OP hates the governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran, although Shariah is implemented there.

>>19860770
Your ilk is very predictable, other anons have caught on too >>19860761 >>19860674

You keep pointing fingers. Surely I needn't explain why this is not a valid form of arguing?

>>19860786
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

>>19860798
>that has a lot of nuance you can’t gather in English
I can't even express how profoundly troubling this is - God speaks in the fire and it is translateable to all mother tongues (Acts) - the logos is the super-language

>>19860790
You don't know the content of your favorite book, which is full of lies. Read Surah 5, verse 116.

>>19860818
>I can't even express how profoundly troubling this is
The nuance of the language isn't mandatory to know. Everything you need to know is easily translatable and will be a proof against you on the Day of resurrection were you to reject it. The nuance would simply give you an extra boost of faith, it's not the foundations of it.

>>19860814
>https://sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124
>since I attained the age of puberty
what age?

Hello brothers! Am I supposed to rape kefir women after or before I kill them? What would our saintly ISIS brothers do? Thanks for the answers. Inshallah!

>>19860812
Don't cry, baby

>>19860826
Show me where it refers to the Trinity in that verse please?

>>19860829
inshallah brother it doesn't matter, allah is the best of rapists.

>>19860834
You can't read, dude?

>>19860828
This was before she was living with the Prophet, so she was nine or younger. When she lived with the Prophet she consummated the marriage.

>>19860774
The Quran in a way manages to reconcile them. For example in a verse it says the law requires and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but it you forgive and don’t press charges it is expiation for your sins

>>19860782
If you want a Quran translation that is good for practice I’d suggest the Hilali-Khan which explains the practical implications as you go

For Hadiths I’d suggest you start with these two collections put together by Nawawi, you can find many editions

Forty key Hadiths on the beliefs of Islam assembled by Imam An-Nawawi

https://www.abuaminaelias.com/forty-hadith-nawawi/

*Gardens of the Righteous* (Riyad, as-Saliheen, also sometimes translated as meadows of the righteous or gardens of the virtuous) longer collection by him which include key hadiths on practice and Islamic lifestyle

https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin

Why are Muslim countries backward?

>>19860837
I can read just fine. I'm just wondering where the Trinity is mentioned here, either explicitly or implicitly.

>>19860833
Being this afraid of critique is one of the reason islam is so miserable today.

>>19860843
Turns out you can't read.

>>19860838
again, what age?

>>19860851
Yeah this.

>>19860845
Don't cry, little girl. Be strong like Aisha.

Moe didn't promise you the conversion of the whole world to islam. Even he understood that islam would be of little interest to anyone outside the Middle East.

>>19860801
isn't Sharia literally Quran laws applied to everyday life? why is it impossible?
>>19860841
I'll check those out, thanks.

>>19860818
That’s not troubling at all, there is tremendous nuance even Arabs don’t gather without studying it. The Quran demands intense study and this was even done by the first generation who had teachers and broke it down and went over it word by word. Muslims are required to give it attention and that takes much study including learning Arabic for many. The system of Arabic grammar terminology was established by the first generation specifically due to converts. That said, even without knowing a lot or the Arabic you can appreciate the Quran and gain quite a bit from it

See

The Greek Gospels are not a holy book for us. The Quran refers to Nasara, Nazarenes, technically , not masiyoon, Christians. The Gospel the Arabs had was Hebrew and the Greek ones were not available in Arabic until after the Muslim conquests

See
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3

>>19860851
Stay mad, little christcuck.

>>19860770
https://www.unchainedatlast.org/laws-to-end-child-marriage/

Youngest age allowed: 14. That is still 5 years older than the age of consummation of Aisha, and 8 years older than the age of marriage.

>>19860870
That doesn't refute anything I said.

>>19860863
Muslims still don't understand what Shariah means. Sunnis have four different madhhabs. What is forbidden in one madhhab is permitted in another. This is used by some pragmatic Muslims, jumping from one school to another and back for 'profits'.

Full Shariah lifestyle is impossible because Muslims want total control of politics, economics and culture. But in reality, even the rulers of the Ottoman Empire were violators of Shariah. It is interesting that many of them have never made the Hajj to Mecca.

>>19860865
This is one of the opinions within the ulama community. Other Muslim scholars believe that the Bible is sacred and has not been corrupted.

>>19860867
You are forbidden to offend Christians and Christ.

But since you have difficulty reading even your own holy book, I won't demand too much from you. May God forgive you.

>>19860882
Pray tell, what did you say?

Why are Muslim countries backward?

>>19860913
Global prevalence of consanguine marriage

>>19860937
What is wrong with consanguine marriage?

>>19860954
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects

>>19860959
No, I want YOU to tell me.

>>19860954
What do you think about evolution?

>>19860971
This leads to the selection of bad genes, resulting in fewer healthy and smart people in the population.

>>19860913
There are many more incels in the Islamic world.

At the same time, they are told that death in battle will lead them to a place where there are many pussies.

https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2017/12/19/the-link-between-polygamy-and-war

>>19860985
Does it? Can you prove it? The "inbred" Muslims btfo europe for centuries in sciences and military might.

Kekking at these online larper """christians""" who think Jesus would approve of their vile demeanor.

>>19860998
Islam used any genetic material as cannon fodder.

>>19860937
>>19860993
It was a combination of reasons. Some economists, such as Rubin, Greif and Kuran, say that Islamic law adversely affected the development of countries.

>>19861011
Cope

>>19860898
I am not forbidden to offend Christians, retard. Read the Quran and stop wasting my time with your quips.

>>19861018
What is the argument for this? That the Islamic law forbids usury? In that case it's a good thing that it prevented (((development))).

>>19861021
Stop crying like a girl

>>19852687
discord link doesn't work

>>19861028
As long as Muslims think so, they will lag behind in development.

>>19861032
OP went to Pakistan and deleted all contacts

>>19861030
like how your God was crying as he was strung up on a stick? you christcucks are very amusing.

>>19861068
You are violating sharia law by posting here, do you know?

>>19861085
Don't tell Muslims how Sharia law works.

>>19861101
You don't know your own religion, it's ridiculous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9wILHCaIf8

>>19861104
I don't know what's worse here; the fact that you think one person represents sharia law, or that you think this person is mufti menk.

>>19861101
Sharia law doesn't work lol >>19860883

>>19861110
What muslim scholars do you respect?

>>19861110
Who today represents Sharia on planet Earth? Crybaby from 4chan?

>>19861117
I respect all muslim scholars, even mufti menk, but because I respect them doesn't mean I take everything they say individually as scriptural.

>>19861123
You are violating sharia law and you refuse to admit it. It's clear.

You are lucky that you live in a secular country.

>>19861133
Almost every Muslim wanna leave the Middle East and go to secular Europe. It's strange, but it is what it is.

>>19861123
The Quran clearly states that Muslims should obey the scholars. You are a lying Quranist, aren't you?

>>19861144
I have noticed this.

>>19861133
>*posts video of one scholar giving his views*
>No, retard, I don't take everything one guy says as true
>Y-y-you're just not admitting you are wrong!
love the discourse on this site. stupendous.

>>19861021
>I am not forbidden to offend Christians, retard. Read the Quran and stop wasting my time with your quips.
>a book that a Christian would say defames their god tells those who believe in it not to offend Christians
Do Muslims not see how the theological claims their religion makes would be inherently offensive to Christians? I guess Christians wouldn't understand how the Jews could feel the same way about Christianity, so it's likely that Abrahamism just reduces your self awareness.

>>19861160
If you do not accept the arguments from the Quran and the Sunnah, then you aren't a Muslim.

>>19861152
There are multiple interpretations of sharia.

>>19861167
What interpretation do you follow? Dont-eat-pork-ish?

>>19861144
Really? How come Muslims are actually GOING to Afghanistan and ISIS then?

>>19861038
What good did this (((development))) bring to the west? Do you enjoy slaving your life away for your corporate lords and jewish bankers just to pay the mortgage for your shitty house?

>>19861248
You do the same thing in muslim countries.............. if they're not war-torn that is.
Did you really think you had a point there? lol?

>>19861263
I don't engage in usury.

>>19860883
> This is used by some pragmatic Muslims, jumping from one school to another and back for 'profits'.

You made that up and also don’t even know how schools work. Halal and haram don’t change based on opinions of them, an opinion is either right or wrong we just agree to disagree out of the belief that sects are forbidden. But saying I think this is haram but I “switch” to the belief it’s halal while I do it before switching back would clearly not be sincere and in fact is considered nifaq (hypocrisy), anyone who would do that would just be dishonest or wouldn’t care, they wouldn’t claim it’s legal based on a your misunderstanding of a device which is about getting along with opinions you think are wrong, not about wrong and right being optional

>>19860892
I don’t know any scholar who thinks that, the Bible is respected because insulting other religions is a no no since it provokes them to insult our religion but we don’t regard the Greek Gospels to be the same as the Hebrew one revealed to Jesus even if we regard Christians and Nazarenes as the same religion based on the sunnah of categorizing them that way

>>19860913
I don’t know what his means. If by backwards you mean under the economic dominion of the west it’s because the dollar is the international reserve currency. If Muslims try to establish a government free from it they will be stamped on by the local puppet regime, sanctioned, or outright bombed. Much of Muslim world is forcibly cut up into different nations for Balkanization. Ultimately of course this will end. But only when and if Muslims are willing to stand up to it more

>>19860993
I don’t know where you get the idea there are more incels

>>19861018
Islamic countries don’t actually enforce Islamic financial law, that is why western financial interests have managed to take hold

>>19861032
https://discord.gg/ysvruzyY2E

>>19861144
That’s not correct at all

>>19861270
>"usury bad"
>your countries have similar problems without usury
>"yeah but"
K.... thanks for proving my point, I guess?

>>19861299
Work in Islamic countries is much more relaxed. We don't lust for money as much as westernes do.

>>19861295
>I don’t know where you get the idea there are more incels
Polygamy

>>19861313
This is especially noticeable in the Gulf countries, which have turned into an island of hedonism and depravity.

>>19861313
If you have oil, sure, you can do as you like as >>19861327 pointed out.
If not: lol.

>>19861327
The only decadence in my country comes from western liberal propagandists. If you zogbots leave us alone there wouldn't be any problem.

>>19861335
>in my country
Where are you from?

>>19861332
America also has oil but here you are enslaved to your jewish bankers.

>>19861343
America is a far more developed nation of 330 million with far less access to oil.
Not sure how many owngoals you're willing to score here lmao.

This thread is sad some larper is pretending to be a Islamic scholar when it's explicitly stated giving opinions without any basis is bad. You don't show any respect to Muhammad I.e including (saw). You actively hurt the ummah by turning it into sect fighting when Allah commanded to be united as one sect. You are taking other persons quranic exegesis without crediting them to appear more intelligent then you are. You clearly aren't mature enough to lead the discussion even talking about islam can cause someone to go to hell and your not taking it seriously enough.

>>19861313
>>19861327
I guess if you're not an expendable slave laborer, sure.

>>19861401
Kufri doctrine needs to be addressed and cannot be tolerated. Are you thick?

>>19861335
You bought an American computer, regularly visit American websites and communicate in English with Western people. Nobody imposes the Western agenda on you, you consume it yourself. You are direct evidence that modern Islamic culture is inferior and Muslims have little interest in their own religion. Many of you become radicals because of the ressentiment towards Westerners.

>>19861420
So why are you so quffar?

>>19861421
The computer I'm using happens to be chinese lmao. I come here to discuss literature and philosophy with people all around the globe. En*lish happens to be crude enough to be easily learned and used as a lingua franca. You give yourself too much credit.

>>19861440
Suddenly it turns out that Islamic culture is not self-sufficient.

>>19861451
Most Muslims don't see the need to discuss intellectual interests with people around the world, but I do. I could just as easily restrict myself to discuss Islamic literature only with Muslims but I see little reason for that. You're grasping for straws.

>>19861481
Way to "miss" (dodge) the point. Pathetic muslim, nothing new.

>>19861451
>>19861481
>>19861492
All Abrahamic religions are more alike than different. Muslims tend to be more boorish and violent, Christians tend to be more sanctimonious and hypocritical, and Jews are... not even human beings.

>>19861401
As-salamu ‘alaykum

>This thread is sad some larper is pretending to be a Islamic scholar
That’s incorrect I haven’t ever posed as an ‘Alim

> when it's explicitly stated giving opinions without any basis is bad

Where have I done that?

> You don't show any respect to Muhammad I.e including (saw). You actively hurt the ummah by turning it into sect fighting when Allah commanded to be united as one sect.

I have not unless you mean responding to attempts by Shia to introduce falsehood here but that’s not about quarreling with Muslims since Shia in the stronger opinion are unbelievers for slandering A’isha رضي الله عنها after the Quran exonerated her since doing so is tantamount to denying the Quran, and there are numerous other issues as well. The weaker opinion is that their laymen are not unbelievers since they are ignorant but I don’t think this is applicable since kufr is actually a type of ignorance, jahl, dogmatically and Quranically. However even if we accept the second opinion attempts to spread kufr are to be responded against and this is why Sallahuddin banned Shia services and adhan in Egypt

> You are taking other persons quranic exegesis without crediting them to appear more intelligent then you are.

That’s incorrect, I have mentioned multiple names in this op alone and at the outset of this series stated I am drawing from Ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi, Sa’di, Al-Julalain, and Qutb. In fact they often incorporate each other’s explanation because exegesis in Islam is not about inventing an explanation but about learning the correct one and passing that on, which as much as possible is taken from the Sahaba رضي الله عنهما and the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Although your accusation here contradicts your earlier one which was that I was giving my opinion without basis, doesn’t it? Your presumption that I’m doing this just to look smart and out of kibr is not right if you have no evidence of it and it is actually slander, or libel, by Shari’ah. I am in fact doing this because conveying knowledge of the religion is an obligation upon Muslims and an extremely important one.I have no interest in looking smart for /lit/ and if I did I would be going over Hegel or Heidegger, not the Quran which isn’t considered something intellectual around here

> You clearly aren't mature enough to lead the discussion even talking about islam can cause someone to go to hell and your not taking it seriously enough.

If you want to put in the effort then you are welcome to. However I urge you to learn the adab of naseeha

>>19854236
The prophet loved women of every age no? His first wife was older than him by two decades.

>>19861401
Shia anon here. I think you made some good points here and I see myself guilty of some of it. I want to make it clear that I'm all for Islamic unity and consider Ahl us-Sunnah as my brothers in religion. I'm no scholar at all but I enjoy reading and talking about religion. I try to always give my sources when people asked, and I'm careful not to make unfounded claims. You would be right to say there is little to no originality in religion. Most of my beliefs come from Shia orthodoxy all of which I can cite from reputable sources. I agree though that I've made too much focus on sect differences in my discussions with OP and I'll try to avoid from now on. Again, sorry to have made a bad impression.

>>19861527
>Shia in the stronger opinion are unbelievers
How old are you? Where is your adab?

Shias are Muslims

>>19861534
Shia doctrine is that salvation requires accepting the Imamate of the twelve imams.

>>19861542
No they’re not. Adab does not mean considering rafida as Muslims and this was never the norm from the Salaf to Saladin to the Ottomans. You are a certain shaykh says someone who condemns being rude to those who slander his mother (A’isha) more than he does rudeness toward his mother

>>19861527
>since Shia in the stronger opinion are unbelievers for slandering A’isha رضي الله عنها after the Quran exonerated her since doing so
Just to dissolve a confusion, Shias don't accuse her of being unfaithful to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his noble family). We do criticize her for other things, but not this.

>>19861551
Again, I don't want to discuss sect differences but this is not true. I've posted ahadith from al-Kafi to you before that clearly say otherwise, I could post them again if you somehow skipped them.

>>19861555
How old are you, boy? How many fiqh books have you read? Do you even speak Arabic?

I suspect that this is youthful maximalism in you.

>>19861556
No there are many Shia narrations in your books that say she is a whore and witch and I have absolutely seen Shia do this on twitter many times

>>19861556
>We do criticize her for other things
Are they political? Theological? Both?

>>19861568
"Shias on twitter" that you always complain about are probably propaganda agents tasked with causing disunity among Muslims. There is no such thing in our main sources.

>>19861576
I don't think theology could be relevant here. One such thing is her rebellion against Ali (a.s.), which was completely unjust.

>>19861562
>It must be understood that among the Shias, the confession of (belief) in the Imam is one of the principles of faith, and that the one who discards it will be, in the hereafter, with the disbelievers and the polytheists

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-4-it-mandatory-know-imam-time

This thread is a taqiyyah free zone thank you

>>19861566
You’re sidestepping the question and didn’t even return my salam which is wajib. The rafida being kuffar does not fall under fiqh, it falls under aqidah. The only fiqh question is if meat slaughtered by them is halal and every book I have read this says it’s not (reason would be is they are neither Muslims nor ahlul kitab)

I can read Arabic somewhat, I can’t speak it fluently. I have severe fiqh books but that has very little relevance since learning fiqh seriously must be done with a shaykh and reading from such books requires his tutorship optimally (and yes my shaykh says Shia are not Muslims and the halal council for his mosque which grades meat for the whole area refuses to sign off on their meat)

>>19861582
Are the narrations in your books or the sermons of your shaykhs also that? What about your narrations she murdered the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in your books?

>>19861584
It was as I have stated completely about ensuring those who killed Uthman were brought to justice as many were in Ali’s army. The killers panicked when she and Ali began negotiating and attacked her army to precipitate a war. Both her and Ali quickly stopped the fighting by their respective sides which was quite brief

>>19861615
Have read *several fiqh books

And most provide options without evidence and so are useless to a layman without an instructor or a school to explain which are correct

>>19861639
*opinions without evidence

DON'T LISTEN OR TRUST THIS GUY, HE IS A SALAFI WHO PROMOTES AL-QAEDA SCHOLARS!

>>19861615
Majlisi's view is not the current mainstream view. You are aware that scholars can disagree on things, right? He was probably going off from some other narrations which he regarded reputable.
>>19861624
>Are the narrations in your books or the sermons of your shaykhs also that?
Both. All the sermons by Shia scholars that I've attended were very careful to be respectful towards Sunni figures.
>What about your narrations she murdered the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in your books?
The sources I've read say a Jewish woman poisoned him. You say things that are new to me.
>It was as I have stated...
Our narratives differ here. I don't want to get into it again.

>>19854247
>(69:44) And if he [i.e., the Prophets] had forged this Discourse and thereafter ascribed it to Us,
لَاَخَذۡنَا مِنۡهُ بِالۡيَمِيۡنِۙ
>(69:45) We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
ثُمَّ لَقَطَعۡنَا مِنۡهُ الۡوَتِيۡنَ ۖ
>(69:46) and then severed his life vein;
فَمَا مِنۡكُمۡ مِّنۡ اَحَدٍ عَنۡهُ حَاجِزِيۡنَ
>(69:47) and not one of you would have been able to withhold Us from doing so.25

> The Prophet (ﷺ) in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
وَقَالَ يُونُسُ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ عُرْوَةُ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ فِي مَرَضِهِ الَّذِي مَاتَ فِيهِ " يَا عَائِشَةُ مَا أَزَالُ أَجِدُ أَلَمَ الطَّعَامِ الَّذِي أَكَلْتُ بِخَيْبَرَ، فَهَذَا أَوَانُ وَجَدْتُ انْقِطَاعَ أَبْهَرِي مِنْ ذَلِكَ السَّمِّ ".

Not really here to troll, just reading out of interest. Who is speaking in the first quote and threatening to sever the Aorta? Is there anything to the claim that your prophet died in this way because he falsified the revelation bestowed to him?

>>19861696
Poor Outis...

>>19861696
The other day someone asked for introductory books on Islam and he recommended ibn Abdul Wahhab. He makes all these threads to promote Wahhabism.

>>19861697
It’s the official view of that site, is it safe to say that site is fringe?

>new to me
Curious, it’s brought up by Shia apologists often in debates with Sunnis

https://twe1ver2.tumblr.com/post/157740101899/lool-how-did-aisha-kill-the-prophet-if-if-your/amp

>>19861730
That book was literally just an abridgement of an abridgment of Ibn Ishaq

>>19861516
>sanctimonious and hypocritical
more of a muslim trait if anything

>>19861744
>It’s the official view of that site, is it safe to say that site is fringe?
That's a treatise from Muhammad Baqir Majlisi called "Hayat al-Qulub". It's not the "official" view of the site.

I don't care what people on tumblr (of all places) say about religion. If you want to accuse the sect as a whole you should either cite a reputable hadith or a Marja' scholar. But you wouldn't be able to because there is no such thing.

No one really gave a shit about this retarded genealogy of Muhammad or conflict between Aisha or whatever in the beginning of Islam. You're all idiots. It was just a debate between those who argued following the Koran alone leads to salvation versus those who saw the Koran more as a provisional tool. No one gave a shit about Ali, Aisha, or whatever. That's not the central claim of the Koran, you low-IQ inbred morons.

>>19861755
Muslims are just violent, boorish, and stupid. They're in your face about everything. Christians are deceptive and sanctimonious. They rely on more intelligent, clandestine, and destructive manner of proselytization and invasion.

>>19861760
>>19861769
>t. zoroastrian buddhist larper
This thread has nothing to do with you. You need to go back.

>>19861751
Weren't you a convert to orthodox christianity two years ago? Why islam now? Why do you think you will stay muslim if you have a track record of converting to other religions?

>>19861775
You stupid low IQ trash. I literally descend form nobility while you descend from a bunch of stupid inbred peasants while you debate and fight about stupid bullshit that is more of a modern invention. Go back to washing my boots, you fucking pedarsag.

>>19861787
Go back.

>>19861769
You have subversive muslims everywhere though.

>>19861789
Your ancestors were just cannon fodder for the Machiavellian Safavids. They didn't give a shit about any of this crap in any deeper way. It was about rallying troops against the Ottomans.
You dumbass. Your ancestors were dying over a lie that my royal ones perpetuated.
I'm fixing their error now, but it could be seen as genetic winnowing as morons like you continue insisting on babbling and fighting over a bunch of bullshit.

>>19861783
He just needs company to discuss books. Hegel, Abdul-Wahhab, Plotinus - he needs his 'lectures' to be listened to with an open mouth.

>>19861798
Go back majoosi.

>>19861804
Do you know how the Safavids collapsed from the Hotakis?
Do you realize the Afghans are hardier and stronger than Iranians?
Do you realize that America left Afghanistan with a lot of modern weapons for a reason?

>>19861798
Go back.
>>19861804
Please do not use that word as a slur. The Magus were the followers of the Prophet Zoroaster and are considered Ahlul Kitab. This guy is just a delusional larper.

>>19861816
You are not. You do not practice tawheed.

>>19861759
Yes it is the official view.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-12-no-2-summer-2011/imamate-and-wilayah-part-1-mohammad-ali-shomali/imamate

Please lay off the taqiyyah

That’s not about tumblr but the sources on that page

Let’s see what this apologist site says

https://www.rafida.org/watch/personalities/aisha

>>19861816
I'm saying Iran should become Hanafi for geopolitical reasons to preempt future problems down the line. Also, in a metaphysical sense, nothing you guys are arguing matters. Most older Muslims were arguing Koranism vs treating Koran as provisional. Have you read Avicenna's cosmological argument for example? At least that is discussing substantial metaphysical claims.
Why does it matter what Aisha or Ali or any other person did? You're not supposed to worship human beings in fucking Islam.
You can't even follow your stupid religion well. You're going to destroy Iran even more than what the goddamn Qajars. You stupid low IQ inbred trash. You don't know how to be pragmatic or realistic.
I'm glad I wasn't born in Iran so I wouldn't have to deal with this shit.

>>19854103
Why Wahhabi Islam?

>>19861856
that’s just a pejorative for ahlul Hadith

>>19861825
This is getting ridicolous. You're mining for quotes from obscure treatises of scholars (this one is by Mohammad Ali Shomali). The website, if you haven't noticed, just hosts a collection of books and treatises from different scholars. There is no "official view" there.

I am not doing taqiyyah because I am not in danger of death. You would be hard-pressed to kill a buzzing fly, much less a man.

Again, I don't care what random "apologists" say. Either give me a sound narration from Shi'i sources or a quote from official Shia Maraaji'. You will not find this because your insistence to hate Shias has nothing to do with Shias themselves.

>>19861824
You are not the arbiter of who practices tawheed.

>>19861869
It's not. You keep pushing ibn Abdul Wahhab.

>>19861886
Allah is. And in the Qur'an and Hadith is plenty of information you commit shirk and are a majoosi kaffir.

>>19861894
Allah will judge between you and me.

>>19861882
Are they all fringe scholars? Why don’t any of them support your professed position?

It’s not random apologists it’s an apologist site that uses videos of Shia scholars

>>19861889
I’ve literally only linked to his abridged Ibn Ishaq and his twenty page primer on beliefs (which is mostly a collection of verses and Hadiths) at the request of someone who wanted basic material

>>19861896
That is what munafiqun say when they commit shirk. Please understand you are going against already laid out facts here.

>>19860753
The arab criminal was the greatest human being in the history of mankind. He united nations, he purged the evil in all his different forms, slavery, racism, criminality, depravation, sexuality ect. But most importantly, he reaffirmed the original Laws of God corrupted by jews and christians. Also its not just an "Arab".

Definition of Arabs: bedouin of the desert. He was of a noble family, blood of Ismail, the first son of Ibrahim

>>19860795
Islam is the purest Abrahamitic faith. U can arrive to this conclusion with logic and good heart. Jews betrayed the original path of god and jesus. Christians created the Church and syncretized their religion to the roman paganist religion. Why they rejected ebraic? Why they imposed latin as the holy lengauge? No way. The lenguage of god is semitic.

>>19861903
Revelation has be given in multiple languages to many people, prophets were sent to every nation

>>19861903
>The arab criminal was the greatest human being in the history of mankind
He spoke about himself like this, but this is an obvious lie.

>>19861903
Outis why did you turn off your trip?

>>19861930
kek

>>19861901
Here. This one uses Sunni hadith to prove Sunnis who love Ahlul Bayt can enter jannah:
https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/reward-loving-ahlul-bayt
And these are the ahadith from al-Kafi that I had posted before:
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/2/19/10
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/2/1/171/1
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/3/3/93/1
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/453/453

If you still insist to hate Shias, go ahead but know God will hold you accountable for it.

>>19861902
لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِيَ دِينِ

>>19861948
What's the problem with Iran becoming Hanafi? Pamiri Tajiks and Yaghnobis are purer Persians, and they are Hanifi. It is not in Iran's national interests to be following a small sect of Islam that's deemed heretical by most Muslims.

>>19861948
>لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِيَ دِينِ
And you will one day stand pathetically before the Creator (SWT) and realize your life was lived in vain. Bitter truth for nonbeliefers is the people they mock will come to judge them for it in the end.

>>19861948
Oof it begins by saying true love is obedience and suggests you can’t love. Ahlul Bayt without accepting the Twelver idea of imamship

>>19861924
Its not a lie its a fact. Islam is the biggest, longest, purest humanist ideology/organitation

>>19861912
Yes. In the era of Noeh, people were wicked, God punished us scattering us in various nations. But i still think that Arabic is the original lenguage of humanity, because family lineage of the various prophets in history.

Inb4 why arabic and not ebraic?

Because linguistics says that proto semitic is probably the oldest lenguage known in historical terms. And they found that arabic is more similar to it then ebraic. In my point of view, i like to imagine the reason of that is that arabs, the bedouine of the desert, were never a nation, or an empire, were seminomad dwellers in the sand, far way from human society, far way from cities (where devil lurks more), therefore they remained pure

>>19861958
The problem is not political, it's metaphysical: There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad (sawa) is His Prophet, and Ali (a.s.) is His Guardian upon His creation. No amount of misplaced nationalism will change these facts.

>>19861962
>Its not a lie its a fact. Islam is the biggest, longest, purest humanist ideology/organitation

source: zakir naik video youtube comments

>>19861962
Why are you deliberately misspelling words? You use Arab names for the prophets and then suddenly spell Nooh/Nūh as Noeh

>>19861959
وَانْتَظِرُوا إِنَّا مُنْتَظِرُونَ

>>19861971
The Koran begins, in Sura 1, with praise to One God, Allah. It doesn't mention Muhammad, and while he may be messenger of Allah, placing too much emphasis on the messenger goes against the Koran's message of absolute monotheism. The messenger is to be respect, not worshiped. I don't care about the messenger's personal life or his familial squabbles. Disagreements regarding the life of the Muhammad, Aisha, Ali, or whatever should be seen as superfluous as the Koran makes clear with its message of absolute monotheism and submission.
Note, I'm repeating my father's arguments. I'm not Muslim myself, but I agree with my dad that the Shia are delusional and stupid.
It's not compatible with the Koran, and goes against Iran's national interests. Iran is in a state of emergency, and it needs to do something realistic to save itself. Changing to Hanafi is the best approach and can help increase ties with its Eastern Iranic brothers.

>>19861996
I am truly sorry but you will never be a Persian. You should learn to cope with it.

>>19861996
The Quran says he was sent as an example so kind of important

>>19861960
Do you love the Ahlul Bayt? Do you even know who they are? Last time you were saying Imam Mahdi is some kind of demon Shias worship. Read the ahadith, they clearly say Sunnis who love the Ahlul Bayt will enter jannah.

>>19862000
I don't care about being Persian or not. I'm repeating my father's arguments, and I do have friends and family in Iran. None of them believe in Shia dogma. I do not think it is geopolitically realistic for Iran to become Mahayana or Zoroastrian, so my dad is saying Hanafi is the path of least resistance and best for its geopolitical interests.
>>19862001
I've read half of the Koran before throwing it to the side. My dad has read it at least 100+ times or so. You're correct about that, but I think squabbling over this kind of detracts from the main theological claims of the Koran. Anyways, I agree that it would be better for Iran to become Hanafi in order to not attract more attention.

>>19862017
I don't care about your geopolitical delusions. Don't reply to me with these ramblings.

>>19862017
So you have not even put in the effort of reading the most important book of the people you love to criticize. You are without shame.

>>19861978
So non muslim can understand me. If i say nuh probably 1 people of 4 will not understand that

>>19861948
I consider Shia borderline islam. Just as a moderate muslim who listen to music, read quran one time in 3 months, never go to mosque etc is borderline islam. We read the same holy book, but you choose to not follow the traditional string of hadits, to use Persian instead of Arabic (like christians with latin) to be more liberal in the teachings (like christians) and in geopolitical view, you are on to other side of us. You support Assad (which is a non Muslim dictator to muslims), your political agenda is Subversive to the world status quo: there is no reason to treat USA as enemys. Yes, they are no muslims, but this means nothing. U are against them but with russians and others non muslims. You are in a dangerous path...

>>19862009
I said the Shia will follow as Dajjal most likely as the Mahdi as the Jews will for their Messih. This doesn’t mean I reject Ahlul Bayt or Isa. The historical person you claim to be Mahdi and is in reclusion is in fact made up but Sunnis believe ad Dajjal is in reclusion as well

I’m familiar with the Hadiths and how Shia interpret that

>>19862023
Do you have some kind of profit or geopolitical benefit to gain from Iran remaining Shia? It's not in the benefit of the common people to remain Shia. Becoming Hanafi would lead to a more stable and safe Iran.

>>19862028
I can't stand any Abrahamic text for more than 150-200 pages.
I've read many Buddhist sutras in one sitting, but I can't read the Bible or Koran without being filled with rage.

>>19862042
That rage is provocated by your inner Devil. Jihad (combat) him

Reading Quran its like exorcising ourself

>>19862049
I don't want to debate that. Just claiming it's better for Iran's national interests to become Hanafi. It would defuse tensions rapidly and paradoxically be better for nation-building.

>>19862030
Thank you for openly giving criticism instead of insulting me like other posters. Let me address your concerns.
>but you choose to not follow the traditional string of hadits
We have another robust and rigorous tradition of hadith. People like Imam Ja'far Sadiq, who was known by Sunnis and Shias alike to be the greatest Alim of his time narrated from his father and grandfather. Note that Bukhari excluded Imam Ja'far from his sahih because the Imam was progeny of the Prophet. You are getting only half of the story (even if that much) because your sources exclude people like him.
>to use Persian instead of Arabic
We pray salat in Arabic, read supplications in Arabic, scholars write their treatises in Arabic. Persian is used in daily life.
> to be more liberal in the teachings
Not at all. We're just as strict. Even music is banned by some maraji.
>You support Assad
I don't really follow nor care about politics because I have no say in it. The teachings of the Ahlul Bayt instructs Shias to avoid politics. Those Shia who participate in it do so either because they are forced to (remember when ISIS was attacking Iran?) or they are doing it in a misguided manner. Just as no one should criticize Sunnis because of the actions of Saudis, some of these criticisms I believe are unjust.

>>19862033
>The historical person you claim to be Mahdi and is in reclusion is in fact made up
Can you prove it?
>I’m familiar with the Hadiths and how Shia interpret that
Did you read those 4 narrations?

>>19862069
>The teachings of the Ahlul Bayt instructs Shias to avoid politics.

This is wrong, and christians alike. ("Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's")

Islam is not only a religion. Is total life style that includes politics, ethics, society, sexual life, passion, everything. "Being not interesting in politics" its a complete indolence and no sense. Iran is shia and shia is iran. Isis attacked iran not for joke..iran is the strongest ally of Assad of syria...of course something like this happens

But you are not even muslim. Why arguing on this? Please, use Logic and Coherence

>>19862217
>This is wrong
That is why the Islamic world is so backward. Millions of Muslims think the same way, being in constant frustration.

Personally, you have not taken the slightest step to go live in Saudi Arabia, where the Sharia rule takes place.

>>19862217
This is not meant as an endorsement of secularism. Establishing an Islamic country is a religious duty and that is why Iran's constitution is the sharia. It only means beyond that politics for the sake of power is contemptible.
>shia is iran
Bahrain is 75% Shia. Iraq is 50% Shia.

Isis attacked Iran because they are a pawn of western powers.

You do not decide who is a Muslim.

>>19862049
>That rage is provocated by your inner Devil. Jihad (combat) him
>Reading Quran its like exorcising ourself
I feel the same with the harry potter series. Are those holy scriptures as well?

>>19862238
I have lived in Iran and before Israel and America decided to sanction Iran to death things were pretty good.

>>19862291
It was still an islamic hellhole where the intellectuals fled to the west.
I love the Persians in my country. Unlike sunnis, they don't blow themselves up and are rarely religious. They're a humble and educated people with a positive influence on our society. The same cannot be said about sunnis and arabs.

>>19862490
Hellhole = Industrial cities, degenerate lifestyles, soulless structures, "MUH GDP" and etc.
Even Afghanistan is a better place than first world countries.
The most degenerate "Muslims" live in Iran. They're literally leaving Islam for good.

>>19862490
>hellhole where the intellectuals fled to the west.
Not really.
>are rarely religious
I'm happy you like them but you wouldn't know about this. It's not wise to be open about religion in the west and dissimulation is obligatory.

>>19862552
I'm pretty sures Muslims in Iran are more pious than Saudis.

>>19862552
Owww yeah strawman me baby <3

>>19862554
Dissimulation to what extent? The ones I know embrace a Western lifestyle. Pork, alcohol, you name it. They're not degenerates in the college slut/junkie sense, but neither are the people native to my country. I reckon most of their conservative beliefs are also an expression of their higher socioeconomic status which precludes them from the usual sunni tomfoolery.

>>19862567
Yeah those people are liberalized. But even liberalized Iranians sometimes surprise me with their religiosity. Recently I became aware that a friend whom I didn't consider religious had just made a pilgrimage and he was so excited about it.

>>19862579
So basically like every "Christian" today.

>>19862579
A pilgrimage to where? And where is your friend from? I didn't see this in my country, but the Iranians here are almost exclusively the children of refugees from 1979.

>>19862604
From my interactions with Sunnis in America, they are also mostly liberalized.

>>19862552
>Even Afghanistan is a better place than first world countries.
Do explain.

>>19862611
To the grave of one of the holy Imams. They are buried in different places in middle east.

>>19862625
He's just talking bullshit.

>>19862618
Same in europe, but they don't want to admit it, they insist they are following the qur'an and if you get head from a muslima she will say it's not forbidden or some shit. I think it's the same story in the US.

Fresh bread
>>19862646
>>19862646
>>19862646

>>19862625
They are living according to nature of their own country. The "Media" almost have no place in this country. And did you notice how there is no Covid-19 or mass hysteria there? Afghans are very traditional, content, hardworking, religious and pure.

>>19862490
>and are rarely religious
I am very religious, but I am a Mahayana Buddhist. I dislike sexual immorality a lot too, so I respect Christians and Muslims more than secular degenerates. I think websites like AshleyMadison and porn should be banned.

>>19862625
They are living according to nature of their own country. The "Media" almost have no place in this country. And did you notice how there is no Covid-19 or mass hysteria there? Afghans are very traditional, content, hardworking, religious and pure.

>>19862719
You will never be a Persian.

>>19862732
Why do you act like I care?
Also, stop going around and claiming other people are me.

>>19862745
I'm afraid I have to inform you you will never be a Persian.

>>19862767
Health and nutrition are more important than ethnic background. I recommend doing a parasite cleanse. You'd be surprised by how common they are. Your messages are kind of effeminate, and that may be due to intestinal parasites.
Hopefully, you also did not get the jab.

>>19862790
You will never be a Persian.
You will never be a woman either.

>>19862815
Persians in Iran don't even exist anymore. Pamiri Tajiks and Yaghnobis are technically purer.