/lit/ - Literature

>>19838466
He was speaking about his own time. He would have done a 360 on the topic if he knew about the current pope

>He seems right on almost every issue
Lmao

>>19838466
>Popes in his day might have been ok
The popes of his day certainly got up to all sorts of insane shenanigans; at least soon after.

just realized I posted a picture of him holding up klenex kek. didnt even notice

I was just reading the history of King James VI and I've felt so profoundly disgusted. Not that he was a particularly ruthless king, just that really, I have no idea how you can read Catholics, Protestants there, and there's so much murder everywhere. It's one of the fucking commandments ffs. Not just churches but every single institution has used God just for politics. It's just an excuse. I dunno I need a break. I also had a sudden thought of WW2 suicide planes, "BANZAI!" one thousand years to the divine emperor Hirohito. And they lost, and Hirohito was no longer a god. What of all the people before then? All those people, what of them? What of the Christians who died on a cross in Japan? The truth according to who? Who is right? Why did nothing ever happen to break this? Why is it always miracles that affect nobody? I need a break.

>>19838475
You need to read more about the history of the Church. There have been extremely corrupt and actually insane popes around Aquinas's time. All were infallible.

>>19838763
You mean fallible?

>>19838466
>>19838475
Morons. Papal infallibility refers to specific cases where the Pope speaks ex cathedra. The current Pope has not taught infallibly on any issue because such an exercise of papal infallibility is quite rare in church history. All Papal infallibility means is that the Pope will never BIND the faithful to believe something untrue. So if the Pope came out tomorrow and said God isn’t real and you’re excommunicated if you believe he is, then that would be a violation of papal infallibility. This Pope has not done anything similar in regards to his teachings. This is an example of an infallible papal decree:
> by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

>45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
You see? (1) it’s addressed to the universal church, (2) the Pope invokes his authority and the authority of Christ and the apostles, (3) he declares it a “divinely revealed dogma, (4) and he says anyone who denies it “has fallen away from the Catholic faith” — meaning they are heretics. This is what it takes for the pope to speak infallibly. The current Pope has never done so.

Besides, Aquinas is speaking about the Church’s infallibility in general, not just papal infallibility. That you conflate the two is another sign of your ignorance. First learn our faith, then criticize it.

>>19838466
yes. have you seen what cringe retarded bullshit comes out of the mouths of every other "autocephalous" bishop? do you realize how much drama there is in the East, especially since they are ruled by Islam (the gates of hell basically prevailed there to no one's surprise) and vestiges of Western (read Roman) Colonialism? It's Rome or nothing. It's Ultramonatism or nothing. Simple as.

>>19838951
*Ultramontanism

>>19838951
Every church is filled to the brim with bullshit. It's just people doing people shit. It's hard to see it as anything else.

>>19838951
First of all the Muslims took over the region because it was God's punishment for Heraclitus being a Monophysite. Also, Patriarch Theophilos' office has been presided over by a bishop since Apostolic time, which I can't say the same about the Pope of Rome given all the clown bs he has done. Like seriously image being part of a church that persecutes its liturgy.

>book on the left related

>>19839233
>Patriarch Theophilos' office has been presided over by a bishop since Apostolic time
uh huh

>>19839265
Not an argument.

>>19838763
What do you even mean by that

>>19839233
>persecutes its liturgy
The Pope is not "persecuting its liturgy"; he is suppressing one form of the Roman Rite (1962 Missal) in favour of the Missal of Pope John Paul VI. This is not without precedent in Church history. Certain liturgical practices have been suppressed before. I'm not going to call you a retard if you're genuinely Orthodox and not just a Western larper because you can be excused for not knowing the ins-and-outs of the Roman liturgical controversy.

>>19838466
>Popes in his day might have been ok
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHHAHA

>>19838466
>Popes in his day might have been ok
this dude lmao

>>19839363
Frankly I'm not super well read on the subject and I don't really care. All I know is that I don't agree with the filioque and think it's incorrect. You can't add to the creed.

>>19839233
>God's punishment for Heraclitus being a Monophysite
No, but it is a punishment for your belief in trinity

>>19838466
>>19838475
>>19838479
>>19838485
>>19838509
>>19838529
>>19838763
>>19838903
>>19838912
>>19838951
>>19838970
>>19838991
>>19839233
>>19839265
>>19839279
>>19839344
>>19839363
>>19839385
>>19839434
>>19839944
>>19840042

>>19838466
Well no, according to Christ's words in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. The Church is not infallible. in these chapters there are specific errors the church was practising. also in the pauline epistle we see Chruches pacticing error. Now we have an example of God judging the church and a church member (Paul) judging the church.
Nowhere in scripture do we have examples of unbelievers judging the church.

So no I don't agree with aquinas here, based on scripture.

>>19840060
The Quran is a book made by an epileptic heresiarch who doesn't understand the Trinity. Muhammad himself totally misunderstood the Holy Trinity because he was in contact with a heretical Monophysite priest.

>It is true that Mohammed started from the east and came to the west, as the sun travels from the east unto the west. Nevertheless, he came with war, knives, pillaging, forced enslavement, murders, and acts that are not from the good God, but instigated by the chief manslayer, the devil. Consider now, in times past, did not Alexander (the Great) prove victorious from the east to the west? There have also been many others, in many other times, who set out on military campaigns and dominated the world. Yet none of the peoples believed in their leaders as you revere Mohammed. Though Mohammed may employ violence and offer pleasures, he cannot secure the approval of the world. Albeit, the teaching of Christ, though it turns away from (worldly) pleasures, it has taken hold to the ends of the world, without violence, since it is opposed to it. This phenomenon is the victory that overcomes the world (1 Jn. 5:4).

-St. Gregory Palamas

Also Islam's attributes of Allah are taken from Christianity.

Sources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoUNRczC6fI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWZ9Mpjr9mc

>>19840150
>You just don't understand the trinity!
>Islam is so violent and profane!
I understand that the trinity has no scriptural basis

>>19840238

You didn't look at the videos didn't you lmao. Yea because St. Gregory was right about your religion being based on terror and conquest of Christian Orthodox land.

Isaiah 61:1, Luke 3:21-22, John 15:26, Acts 2:33, multiple times in Genesis including the burning bush was a theophany of Christ. But yea because you're a sophist and you came here to gaslight Christians

Anyways, Im not gonna debate you but any Muslims out here watch Orthodox Shahada, great youtube channel that deals with Islam from an Orthodox Christian perspective

>>19840289
All the Eastern Churches are subject to Islam, more or less. Of the Pentarchy, why is it that Rome has remained the final holdout for Apostolic Christendom? Huh, it's almost as if the Words of Christ are true, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against Rome thanks to the Holy Spirit. Yet, there are Schismatics from the East that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit when they accuse Rome of being heretical and whatnot ... and as we know, sins against the Holy Spirit are unforgivable. Knowing all this, it is sad to think about how blind they are, and how blind they shall remain so long as their hearts remain hardened and their pride so, so very high.

>>19840289
If I change Father and God to Allah, the Holy Ghost to the angel Gabriel, Son to Servant(these are the true meanings of these words), the illusion of the trinity disappears.

>Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of Allah exalted, and having received of Allah the promise of the angel Gabriel, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

>John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from Allah, even the angel Gabriel, which proceedeth from Allah, he shall testify of me

>Luke 3:21-22
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
And the angel Gabriel descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved servant; in thee I am well pleased.

>Isaiah 61:1
The Angel of the Lord Allah is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

>>19839344
Something something https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

>>19840351
What the heck are you on about? The Son is the servant. Also according to Genesis the Son and Holy Spirit partook in creation, so you're basically insinuating that a created being (Gabriel) was able to create along with God the father. That's HERESY, and no Christian believes that. Stop with this stupidity.

>>19840325
No they are not, around 170 million in Russia alone. There's also the patriarchates of Finland, Romania, Greece, Albania, Czech lands and Slovakia, OCA, and Greece. You are taking that verse completely out of context because the church was never lost. Contrary to your stupid church, we actually still read St. John of Damascus, St. Maximus the Confessor, etc. as they were, we still follow the canons without ad-hoc adding clauses. Does that sound like a church that has been prevailed over?

Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Once again, you are the ones who added the filioque clause which according to Sieciensk (RC researcher) most pre-schism Popes didn't even agree with. The ones who tolerated it did, but they didn't add it to the creed. Also Papal infallibility is complete nonsense because Peter was rebuked by Paul in the First Council of Jerusalem. So should we have Antiochan supremacy? lol no.

>>19840150
>The Crusades didn't happen

>>19840379
The Son is not mentioned in Genesis. the Holy Spirit(Gabriel) partook in creation in that he was ordered around by God. And obviously I'm not Christian

>>19838466
This guy wasn't a prophet, wasn't Jesus. Why do you faggots hold him with such high regard?

>>19840394
Is Gabriel a creature? Answer my question instead of squirming my original rebuttal

>>19840403
Christians are "the lost" mentioned in Al-Fatihah, verse 7. They base their theology not on their (dubious at best) scripture, but on their church fathers and philosophers

>>19840408
Of course he is, Allah created all things, he created the Holy Spirit or the angel Gabriel from light. And I wasn't "squirming your original rebuttal", perhaps what you said wasn't exactly clear

>>19840418
What is your Aqeedah?

>>19840412
You all do the same thing except from your Muslim philosophers and Hadiths, stop simplifying our teachings.

>>19840412
>Said the fags who came last

I don't really care for Christians but Muslims need to be outright fucking genocided.

>>19840394
A created thing is not to be worshipped, in fact in Revelation 22:8 John attempted that very thing and the angel rejected it. Angels are created things, in the same way our Fathers refuted Arius with that same logic. Christ is not a created being, He is the Son of God who took flesh and created the world because he has the same will as the Father.

Also he is in Genesis when he went to the garden, that wasn't just some "old dude" that was Jesus speaking to Adam and Eve. In Orthodoxy we call that a theophany.

>>19840427
>You all do the same thing except from your Muslim philosophers and Hadiths
Allah says in the Qur'an, There is no God but Allah. Does the NT say that God is three(the father, the son, the holy spirit) but one God? It is the worst of comparisons. All of our aqeedah comes from the Qur'an, and some from the hadith. The hadith primarily serves the function of guidance on practical rulings and not core beliefs, those are established in Qur'an.

>>19840446
What is your aqeedah! Answer my question!

I trust that Christianity in its historical continuation in the Orthodox is the true continuation of temple worship, not Islam.

>>19840439
Do I(Muslims) or You(Christians) worship the Holy Spirit?

>>19840453
Okay, if you're not going to say what Aqeedah you follow I'm not going to engage in this discussion, goodbye.

>>19840449
Ahlu Sunnah wal-Jama'ah

>>19840379
>There's also the patriarchates of Finland, Romania, Greece, Albania, Czech lands and Slovakia, OCA, and Greece
Again, not the Pentarchy.
> Contrary to your stupid church, we actually still read St. John of Damascus, St. Maximus the Confessor
you are dumb. many Catholics read these writers on a regular basis, dummy. In fact, as a teenager St. Maximus the Confessor was one of my favorite Church Fathers, right next to St. Augustine.
>Does that sound like a church that has been prevailed over?
When you leave out the conquests by Islam, the conquests by atheistic-communism, the conquests by heresy (you have to admit that Rome has a history of correcting the East when it has fallen into religious innovations and plain error) and still many other catastrophes that have befallen the East, you still CANNOT claim that the Eastern Churches have not been prevailed over from one simple fact alone: Rome has excommunicated you, and you are in Schism with the One True Apostolic Catholic Church! You are divorced from the Body of Christ! There is no hope for you until you fix this!
>Don't throw stones in glass houses.
This is a stupid analogy, for it is not just any Glass House that you speak of, but a Glass House with the protection of the Holy Ghost! Correct your errors!
> according to Sieciensk
according to one guy no one has ever heard of?
> Also Papal infallibility is
stop right there, Schismatic. Papal Infallibility is not without legitimacy, and you must also agree with this if you are being an honest participant.
https://endtimes.video/st-gregory-nazianzen-papacy/

>>19840458
>https://endtimes.video/st-gregory-nazianzen-papacy/

>you are dumb. many Catholics read these writers on a regular basis, dummy. In fact, as a teenager St. Maximus the Confessor was one of my favorite Church Fathers, right next to St. Augustine.

And St. Photios? Who your Pope conveniently made a saint again

>stop right there, Schismatic. Papal Infallibility is not without legitimacy, and you must also agree with this if you are being an honest participant.

I'm not going to watch Dimond bros cult garbage.

>When you leave out the conquests by Islam, the conquests by atheistic-communism, the conquests by heresy (you have to admit that Rome has a history of correcting the East when it has fallen into religious innovations and plain error) and still many other catastrophes that have befallen the East, you still CANNOT claim that the Eastern Churches have not been prevailed over from one simple fact alone: Rome has excommunicated you, and you are in Schism with the One True Apostolic Catholic Church! You are divorced from the Body of Christ! There is no hope for you until you fix this!

You're sounding like the adults from Charlie Brown homie, just idiocy. Cristero War, Rule under Communism in Poland, and also the fact that your adoption of Hellenisic philosophy and Thomism as dogma drew us away from you. In fact St. Gregory Palamas said it was better for us to be invaded by the Turks than to submit to your Satanic Pope, whose idiotic additions to our church. He also warned Barlaam in his dialogue that YOUR CHURCH would lead to Atheism. And guess what happened? Yea, but Communism came as an offspring of the west, and originally the nominalist idiocy of the western world.

"In History there have been three great betrayals: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the Pope" -- St. Justin Popovic

I will hold my tongue because I was not blessed by my priest to take part in debates (especially with a catholic and Muslim at the same time). But I will leave our catholic friend with a brief video explaining our point of view.

Goodbye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLBA6y9x8to

>>19840488
>In fact St. Gregory Palamas said it was better for us to be invaded by the Turks than to submit to your Satanic Pope
>but Communism came as an offspring of the west
You submit to Islam because it is better than submitting to Rome? You submit to atheistic-communism because it is all the fault of Rome!?
what is this with you Schismatics blaming Rome for all your pitfalls? Your arrogance is flabbergasting! And still, you deny that you sin against the Holy Spirit when you deny the obvious: Rome is under the protection of God, and this is attested to by Scripture, Church Tradition, and Reality itself! And still you will deny, deny and deny some more. I'm astounded by the height to which your pride rises. It's like watching prophecy. Yours is the heart that has been hardened, and darkened by his love of sin. I pray that I never fall so low, and that my Faith will hold out until the very end!

>>19838466
No, God does not interfere with Free Will so no matter how much guidance is provided to a holy man directly they always have the choice to do wrong and present it as divine

The Church as an organization is not divine in any special way (every human has a Soul, the divine spark of free will, so the individual members of the clergy all touch divinity through that, but members of the Church are no more holy than the layman)

>>19840516
what do you think you are doing just now? will you tell this to your priest? i hope you do because otherwise you will have deluded yourself into believing that you have not just done what your priest has yet to give you permission to do, Schismatic.

>>19838466
The Catholic Church isn't the Pope.

>Was Aquinas right about the Pope being infallible?
He was talking about the Church, not the Pope. In the Bible the fucking Peter itself say that he is only a man and he make mistakes.