/lit/ - Literature

first for zyzz

>doesn't read LLPSI
>doesn't follow Lucius Amadeus Ranieri (pbuh)
never gonna make it

I had to look up english explanations of basically every grammatical concept in llpsi

LLPSI a shit

>>19821853
https://book4you.org/book/5951800/bc3547

>>19821810
PBUH

Reposting because I hadn't realized the old thread had hit bump limit:
>>19821380
Honestly, Erasmian pronunciation bothers me aesthetically, not because I don't think Greek sounded different in the past- I agree it did- but because we now know that his reconstruction is wrong on some significant details (e.g. he didn't realize φθχ were originally aspirated and not fricatives, he didn't realize most instances of ει were never actually diphthongs, etc). I'd rather use either modern pronunciation, or an actual reconstructed pronunciation using modern linguistic understanding.

are the harry potter translations in latin an amusing way of getting some extra latin reading under your belt?

>>19821853
Sorry man, I took the inpoot b8 too.

>>19821912
Do you people have any idea what kind if mental state you'd have to be to unironically take a picture like this of yourself?

>>19821641
>I’m learning Latin for the sole purpose of reading the Vulgate.
Why not learn Hebrew and Koine Greek since those are what the Bible was actually written in? The Vulgate is a translation after all, just as much as any English translation.

>>19821963
Read the Vulgate.

>>19822014
He's obviously trad cath.

>>19822014
you can't reason with those people.

a translation is somehow superior just because it's in the Vatican's official language

>>19821963
Started reading the first book recently. I generally like reading translations of fiction while practicing another language - helps you stay motivated and the translator may often improve the otherwise mediocre prose. Surprisingly, being somewhat familiar with the plot didn't make it less interesting to me. Bought a physical copy of the second one in the hopes of directing my local publishers towards something decent for once.

>>19822027
>>19822042
That doesn't explain why learn a language just to read a work in a language it wasn't even written in. After all, there's nothing special about Latin, Jerome translated it into Latin so people at the time could understand it.
http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2016/10/bullshitting-in-tongues.html

>>19822049
>That doesn't explain why learn a language just to read a work in a language it wasn't even written in.
Yes it does, he's Catholic. You're not. That's what they do as tradition. You don't.
>After all, there's nothing special about Latin
Once again, not if you are traditional Catholic.

>Religious person does irrational thing
If you want to say that's bullshit, idk why you would stop there, go after the whole institution. But idk why a trad cath revering the Vulgate is shocking to you.

Are you a homeschooled protestant or something? Seems like you aren't in touch with other people's way of looking at the world.

>>19822078
I'd like to at least hear his attempt at an explanation. If only for humor value.

>>19822087
Why are you picking a fight with a man of God?

>>19822009
watching his videos it's pretty clear he's on the spectrum

>>19822113
Like I said, I'd like to at least hear his reasoning. Maybe it'll even make some sort of sense.

>>19822078
>That's what they do
No, actually. The longstanding Christian tradition is to NOT read the Bible.

>>19822120
He is doing his best at presenting a public image to make his work more accessible. He does still come off like a creepy homosexual, but it's a step up from your average shut-in Latin weirdos inevitably failing at attracting any sane audience. Few can achieve what he did and one can only wonder how much meth it takes to keep this pace for so long.

>>19822009
he is literally a normal person. all normal people take pictures of themselves, you are a deranged 4chan user

>>19822215
>you are a deranged 4chan user
as are you :3

>>19822229
I said that he was normal, not me

>>19821912
What is his sexual orientation? I read his that one book about rote memorization, and IIRC there was a paragraph saying how he was trying to date a Japanese woman when he was deployed in Japan. But just listen to him talking and you would doubt it.

>>19821912
positively reptilian

>>19822044
Someone bought a copy of the first book for me for Christmas but I've only been studying Latin for about four months so I haven't read it yet.

>>19822014
>>19822027
Not catholic. Never been to church. Family isn’t religious, either. Just want to learn the text that has influenced the west for millennia. Also, it’s prose in a fairly easy style, so it’s not hard to learn unlike Virgil or some hard shit. I guess that means I quit easily, but this isn’t hard for me. Learning the vocabulary is more work than figuring out the grammar, but Anki sorts that out.

>>19822567
But why read it in Latin instead of either reading an English translation, or reading the original languages?

>>19822574
I have an NASB English version but I find I remember it better if I have to work for it. Reading it in English I forget a lot of it. I may have a flawed method but I enjoy it. I know the originals are in Hebrew and Koine Greek, but I don’t really care and I guess it doesn’t matter since I’m not into textual criticism. The Nova Vulgata is accurate enough for my purposes as a learner.

>>19822567
The Vulgate is easy but still a pleasure to read, especially after labouring at Caesar and Cicero for a long time

how bad is google translate for latin? LLPSIcels say its the worst thing ever but I try it sometimes and it usually gives me a coherent translation

>>19822902
It got better recently, it's still not very good.

>>19822902
LOL

>>19822902
It used to be terrible but for some reason it has gotten a bit better.

>>19821963
Maybe at first. But with so much authentic material available delving into history, philosophy, fantasy, ethics, etc. why would you want to waste time and effort reading a translation of a poorly written children's book?

I've been reading LLPSI and was wondering if there was anything that I could use to supplement my knowledge of the grammar and get better at writing. It seems like LLPSI is more focused on reading and vocabulary.

>>19823359
Wheelock, Gwynne

>>19822215
>all vain narcissists take pictures of themselves
>>19822140
not him
The Vulgate has been read in Latin for over 1500 years. Whether you like it or not that translation has had a major impact on every Western country and most of the rest of the world. It provides the context for all sorts of ecclesiastical and secular matters in the medieval and modern world.
Tradition and history matter to some people. Instead of criticizing you should encourage those who want to learn Latin for any reason. Maybe the Vulgate will lead him to take further interest in Latin. Maybe he will just read that one work and encourage others to learn Latin as well. There are no downsides to him learning Latin to read the Vulgate.

>>19823351
I mean, they're pretty good books even if their author turned out to be kind of an asshole.

>>19823351
Probably because it’s a children’s book and therefore easier to read while learning the language. There’s a reason kids read kids’ books.

>he studies Latin because Latin is ... LE GOOD

>>19823440
Aren't there other children's books translated in Latin too? Like Winnie Ille Pu though I don't know if it's any good.

>>19823359
Depends how deep into grammar and the finer points of Latin syntax you want to go. These are good starts >>19823393
If you really want to dive in A New Latin Syntax by Woodcock is great for detailed and explicit rules for prose composition. It is not for beginners and requires some linguistic background.
Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar is essential. It is the best reference book for Latin grammar hands down. Physical copy is highly recommended as flipping to different sections that cite each other is common. If not all of the above can be found here
https://mega.nz/folder/9o4QEIIK#P3piz8Bfw-z7jgb7Q8NWDg/folder/FsJh1SiS

>>19823456
Dr. Seuss and Winnie the Pooh. If that is your thing go for it.

>>19821810
can anyone help a brainlet out and translate the Latin on the bottom left and right hand side of the op pic?

>>19823520
Path of ignorance is wide
Virtue strives towards difficulty

>>19823456
Yeah, someone bought me “Winnie That Pooh” I’m Latin for Christmas in addition to Harrius Potter. As far as I know Pooh is the only Latin book to ever crack the NYT best seller list, though I imagine most people bought it as a kind of souvenir.

>>19823553
Thanks fren

>>19823611
He wasn’t actually translating. He’s telling you that you need to work hard to learn Latin to read the inscription yourself.

Ahem

I study latin purely because people will think I'm quirky and smart if I know latin

>>19823702
kek

>>19823721

>>19823721
Same

>>19822902
>LLPSIcels
lmao

>>19823721
Not to condescend to people?

>>19823774
This has turned into a full blown civil war

>>19823721
I don't talk to people. And even if I did, I would be too embarrassed to admit to liking anything.

>Sanguinem enim animarum vestrarum requiram de manu cunctarum bestiarum: et de manu hominis, de manu viri, et fratris ejus requiram animam hominis.

OT God is fucking metal.

>>19821810
>Looking at OP picture
>Realize that the kids on the left being filtered from the muses are LLPSIcels who shit their pants upon seeing grammar
Based

>>19823941
>Nunc igitur vade, et percute Amalech, et demolire universa eius: non parcas ei, sed interfice a viro usque ad mulierem, et parvulum atque lactantem, bovem et ovem, camelum et asinum.
IAWEH was on some shit

A couple of months ago there was someone on here wanting to learn Classical Japanese, so just a PSA that some absolute fucking mensch has just uploaded a bunch of Shinchosha editions to libgen - just search by publisher and put in 新潮社.

These are the Norton Critical Editions of Classical Japanese. Every page has the original text along the bottom, textual notes on the top, and a modern translation of difficult phrases in red between the lines. They're fantastic. That is all.

How far into Latin should I be before I start Greek?

>>19824706
Learn the word "puer" then follow your heart

>>19824706
Doesn't matter too much. Key is to stagger them at least slightly. If you can comfortably read most of a textbook in one then start the other.
Beet question is how far are you into Latin? Though regardless of the answer if you want to start Greek then do so.

>>19825231
I'm like 30-40% done with Wheelock & Orberg

>>19825250
Start Greek. It is important that you study both every day, even if only for a little bit.
If you are the anon from the last thread who was frustrated with both those books I wrote a couple long replies to you there. The problems that you have with Latin textbooks are only exacerbated in Greek ones. Tough it out and use as many resources as possible. See the Greek folder in the Mega in >>19823465
I've heard mixed things about Athenaze, seems alright though I've only given it a cursory glance. Mastronarde's Intro to Attic Greek is similar to Wheelock's in detailed descriptions of grammar but not enough examples. Not enough examples is the running theme behind all Greek textbooks.

>>19825270
Not that guy, but thanks. I just looked at some of the books and the script is difficult for me to read. Greek lowercase letters look so alike and just scribbly.

>>19825293
You'll get used to it within a couple weeks. Alphabet is the least of your worries.

>>19825370
>Alphabet is the least of your worries.

>>19825374
Start with something easy like translating Greek proper nouns to the latin alphabet (Πλάτων -> Platon).
After that memorise the greek alphabet in order. Write it down a few times a day and you'll be good to go.

>>19825374
Just practice writing it letter by letter. Like >>19825508 says, write the alphabet each day, write the vocab from the first few chapters. Learn about accents and breathing and dive in.
The good and bad of Greek is the difficulty id front-loaded. It will not be easy but if you keep at it within a year you will be reading authentic texts and that is where it gets fun.

it's out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evx-3RkhtIc
PBUH

>>19826339
>PBUH

Pax super eum sit?

>>19824368

This douchebag seriously invented a new pronunciation system for Greek and named it after himself, kinda how he took the Dowling method and began to call it the Ranieri-Dowling method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9z5Gvp3MM

Just finished Fabulae Faciles.What should I read next?

>>19827250
PBUH to Luke 'Narcissus' Ranieri.

>>19827264
Eutropius is pretty readable

>>19827423
Cheers! Gonna start on Breviarium Historiae Romanae tonight after dinner.

for LLPSI should I just be reading a chapter once and moving on, trying to reach the end as fast as possible without stopping to understand every bit of grammar?

>>19827513
no, you should be re-reading chapters and doing all the pensa + the grammar bits at the end of each chapter. don't rush it. go slowly and if you get stuck on grammar, google it and learn it in your own language. it's not cheating. i did it with gerunds, gerundives, the subjunctive mood, ut + cum clauses and some other stuff. it's not a race.

>>19827513
I can speak for Athenaze which is similar, I typically read it multiple times until I don't need to either check the margin notes or review the new grammar. Once I do that I then do the exercises(though I'm also building my own anki deck, which helps).

>>19827549
I recommend making or acquiring a list of types of subordinate clauses, uses of the gerund(ive), uses of the ablative, as you learn them. This will make your mind instinctively think "Uh oh, a subjunctive with 'ut'! I wonder which, of the basically 8 things it can be, this is?" As opposed to thinking "OH GOD, AN UT! THIS COULD BE ANYTHING!" and having to rummage around in your unconscious like trying to dig something out of a messy bag.

i have no where else to post this

>feel no progress in russian
>keep going anyway
>today for no reason
>realize i know half these words and don't have to look them up

always keep going even when you think you suck

>>19821810
is that pic the oldie equivalent of start with the greeks meme but start with grammar

>>19827250
>took the Dowling method and began to call it the Ranieri-Dowling method
Hope a few more names get added on top just to ridicule Dowling for patenting paradigm memorization in the first place

>>19827692
Yeah it's tricky business since progress can be slow. I'm having sort of a similar experience with Latin where I'm finding I can "suddenly" read things that I couldn't read before. Like recently when I realized that most of what Latin posters here are posting are just the same bullshit memes post in English but in Latin instead.

>>19827984
>he's ready for the Grumio test

Cur non Latinam scis? Grumo est in culina, vinum bibens. Grumio videt ancillam intrantem. Ancilla delectat Grumionem. Grumio rogat, "Femina, cur non sedes in vultu Grumionis?" Ebrius est Grumio. Ancilla clamat, sed nemo audit, nam dominus et domina hodie in forum sunt. Grumio ancillam capit manibus. "Nunc stupro te! Stupro! Stupro!" Grumio ridet. Sed Ancilla quoque ridet, quod Grumio ebrius est, et stupravit filium dominorum. Anus eius deletus est. Cum Grumio sobrius est, timet ne dominus se interficiat. Sed omnis bene est! Domino quoque placet stuprare filium eius. Videt anum filii. Deletus est. "Grumio! Fecisti?" Grumio tremit. "Bene, Grumio! Bene!" Dominus et Grumio rident. Ancilla ridet. Etiam domina ridet! Sed filius non ridet. ANUS DELETUS est filio.

>>19827998
LLPSI illustrations for this chapter were alright

>>19827998
Very cool. Thanks.

>>19827998
So "fetus deletus" is actually Latin and not just a joke in English?

>>19828130
What's funny about "fetus deletus"?

>>19828166
It's just uh, well, it's a joke phrase, sir.

>>19823721
Is it weird that I've considered taking up Egyptian partly just because it would be a neat party trick to read hieroglyphs that have been used as decoration?

>>19828316
This sounds like the innocuous beginning of an Eyes Wide Shut style story

>>19828316
If that's the case, why bother learning it when you could just make up what the meaning is while you're at the party? It's not as though there's going to be someone else there who can read hieroglyphics. Normies at parties are credulous anyways. The other day I went to a party and told two girls a story I made up on the spot about how I have a friend who traded crypto with a 70 percent daily profit rate by asking his dog to "shake" each day and then making trades based on which paw the dog gave him. They didn't question the validity of my story.

>>19828330
Eh? How so, I've never read (watched?) Eyes Wide Shut.
>>19828370
Because what if there is? Or what if they get curious and decide to check with someone else?

If that's the case, why bother learning it when you could just make up what the meaning is while you're shitposting? It's not as though there's going to be someone else there who can read Latin. Anons in these threads are credulous anyways. The other day I went into a thread and told two anons a story I made up on the spot about how I have a friend who learned Latin within three months by asking an autistic man to post "vlogs" each day and then picking books based on which way he shakes his fake bald head. They didn't question the validity of my story.

If anyone wants some unusually easy latin to translate and is into the occult, paranormal, or mysticism, check out Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell or anything else he wrote. He wrote all in Latin but a strangely easy latin sort of like how the vulgate is known for being easy.

This one time I stumbled across some manuscript written in the 16th ce. It was written in Latin and had some curious images thrown here and there surrounding the texts. Some of them contained images of beautiful young woman; others, images of horrid, wrinkled hags.
As I continued to flip through them, I became seized by a ghastly sensation which enveloped the very marrow of my bones. A voice entered into my head and started speaking in a sinister manner, of horrors that were both incomprehensible and yet so familiar.
I closed the manuscript and decided that if I were to vanquish the demons therein, I had to learn Latin.
This is my origin story.

>>19828398
>Because what if there is?

Bro, how many people have you met who know hieroglyphics? And what's the probability of them being at a party? Even if—by some act of God—this did happen, you could just laugh it off and say you were joking.

>>19823721

>spontaneously start orating in Latin with splendor and gravitas

>all my friends are hasidic Jews and they get scared thinking I'm going to kill them

>suddenly shit everywhere and it actually smells good

>

>>19828531
16th ce.
You yourself speak in a very sinister american manner

>>19828531
Voynich manuscript is not in Latin dummy

>>19821810
Alright lads Ive had enough. Whats the best way to go about learning Koine Greek with no prior antiquated language knowledge, other than a basic understanding of Latin?

>>19828545
Still, I'd rather be able to give a legit translation. I suppose it's ultimately really linguistic interest- the party trick would just be a neat side benefit. Not to mention, if I were to bullshit them, their amazement wouldn't be satisfying to me because I'd know it was bullshit.

>>19827513
What I've been doing is I try to read as far as I can until I no longer have any idea what I'm reading, and then when I go back 4 or 5 chapters, those chapters make far more sense

Who is your preferred Roman writer? I personally love Seneca's style

>>19827250
He named it after himself? I don't know enough about Greek, because I though he got it from obscure linguistic books. This guy is fucking embarrassing.

>>19827692
I believe in you

>>19828316
Learn Coptic instead. You can read the Nag Hammadi library and lots of Gnostic texts.

>>19830061
Honestly my plan was to learn Coptic first and learn to read Egyptian in Coptic pronunciation rather than Egyptological.

>>19830078
This guy is an Egyptologist and he is teaching all the Egyptian languages. He has complete free courses on his channel. The Coptic course is already done and he's going backwards to Late Egyptian, Middle, etc...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjLuQOYWne-pi9MmIf2T8JA/videos

He has 2 Coptic courses:
>One for James. P. Allen's book
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8zI_lPZZrWCXm9G3_enUtR4ezQ-eUSd
https://www.amazon.com/Coptic-Grammar-Dialects-Languages-Didactica/dp/1646020642/
>One for Thomas O. Lambdin's book
https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Sahidic-Coptic-Thomas-Lambdin/dp/0865540489/
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8zI_lPZZrXWx34amS-nhViV6MHkl489

>>19830251
Oh, I had some idea how I'd learn it already (I wanna learn Bohairic anyway) but it's hard to motivate myself. Plus I'm already learning two languages for university currently.

>>19830363
From what I understand the difference in dialect is minuscule, but I would still check out the channel.

>>19830368
I thought it was reasonably different, though not difficult if you're already fluent in one.

>>19830377
I don't know either language, I'm just a retard on an imageboard. Why are you listening to me?

>>19830038
it's named after the Hellenistic writer Lucian

>>19830711
He calls himself Lucius so it's pretty obvious why he calls the pronunciation method that.

>>19827250
This guy is creepy. How is he not self aware?

bros...

>>19830744
pbuh

>>19830744
I hate it when girls speak latin
It's obvious that they don't give a shit about the language and are just doing it because their boyfriend is doing it
Everytime they say a word in latin, they laugh all smug like
>"hhehe I'm so smart and superior"
But of course they can't even read past chapter 3 of marcus improbus book.
I fucking hate women it's unreal

>>19830744
I think that's a jew, not a girl

>>19830732
I've said this so many times I had to double take that this wasn't my own post I forgot about.

I mentioned this in an older thread but if you want him talk to people who aren't also autistic, it shows how clueless he is. Watch his interview with Carla Hurt who is a Latin teacher. He annoys the fuck out of her the whole rambling about the intricacies of pronunciation to the point that she interrupts him and tells him that no one wants to hear about that. And reminds him that he may be alienated the live audience watching the stream and that you can't talk about a niche topic for 40 minutes without losing viewers.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Fyu5ByWYs

>>19830744
God he can't take a natural looking picture to save his life. Why is he holding onto her armpit with his palm lmao? Just hold her waist ffs

>>19830870
What does she know about viewer engagement lmao?
What a cunt

>>19830790
To be fair he is in decent shape and he is a helicopter pilot in the military. If he wasn't, this dude would be that weird guy eccentric dude who works at the library and lives in a studio apartment alone in mid 40s. Joining the military was probably the smartest thing he's ever done in his life.

>>19830884
She was a lot more polite about then I was. I'm paraphrasing. She's actually a very nice lady.

>>19827998
this is a pasta from here right? it has a bunch of grammatical mistakes in it

>>19830870
>1:40:00
no thanks

Anyone have experience with this author? We are reading her for Medieval Latin this upcoming semester, but I've never heard of her until now. Wiki seems to say most of the currenr scholarship is based around the fact that she's a woman, but if her work was preserved from the Middle Ages onward then there must be some good reason.

>>19831398
Din't know why pic uploaded sideways. Author is Hrotsvitha

>>19831331
Did you think I was asking you to watch the whole thing? It was a bad interview that dragged on because he was being autistic and rambling about pronunciation for 40 minutes, that was my point.

>>19829972
I love Virgil's poems. In prose, I'd choose Cicero.

>>19829972
I like Ovid and Seneca (his tragedies) in verse and Tacitus and Caesar in prose.

>>19829972
Catullus for raw emotion
Cicero for rhetoric
Juvenal for satire
Ovid for mythology
Virgil for Epic
Gellius for linguistics
Isidorus for a little of everything
Plautus for a good time

>>19828531
many such cases!

>>19828509
Nice, thanks.

>>19828509
Do you know where I can find Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell in Latin? I can only seem to find English translations.

I will never use the classical pronunciation of Latin.

>>19832929
Just do what I do, ecclesiastical except keep C = /k/ and V = /w/. Also, respect long vowels.

>>19832929
Yeah sounds like Italian which is very homosexual

>>19832945
No, I use the full ecclesiastical pronunciation. Long vowels only matter for stress.

>>19828130
Semper ubi sub ubi

>>19831199
which ones?

Mad how we know Bede learnt Latin through Donatus' Grammar yet lispis deny that

>>19833046
Always where under where?

>>19833122
It's a pun when you pronounce it because it sounds like "Always wear underwear."

>>19833122
You are not ready.
That phrase was the test.

>>19833132
Thanks, I figured that much out.

Apparently this is Carla Hurt's channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoEeiLE4R1g
She's an LLPSI cuck it seems

>>19833433
Dowling Method is the best way to learn Latin

>>19833433
The classical pronunciation sounds so fucking disgusting, jesus christ.

>>19833433
cope, LLPSI chads get all the chicks

>>19833465
Referring to her other videos of course. I refuse to believe that ancient Latin actually sounded like this.

>>19833451
Do you mean the Ranieri-dowling method?

>>19833524
No, I mean the original Dowling Method:
https://www.wcdrutgers.net/Latin.htm
Memorize the morphology tables beforehand and then do Lingua Latina. The thing you're referring to I had not heard of before and I would never recommend anything that uses the classical pronunciation. That's your choice however.

>>19833542
The "Dowling method" is just a poor man's version of The great Ranieri-Dowling Method

>>19833631
If you can bear to listen to a person use the classical pronunciation without experiencing physical revulsion I commend your fortitude.

On the topic of schizo /x/ Latin, what is some kino for me in this subject matter. So far I've found an 18th ce treatise on demons from the 18th ce.

Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation applies modern Italian phonetics onto Latin texts. It is completely anachronistic if your goal is to speak (or read out loud) Latin as Romans would have spoken like. The common “standard” version of Ecclesiastical has only been extant for a few hundred years. Before that, every region applied their own pronunciation according to their local language’s sounds. I think it EL became popular due to the Pope decreeing that the standard pronunciation at the time in Italy (what is spoken today) become the rule. There are those that say it sounds more “real” as a spoken language because of the soft C (before i, e, æ, and œ) and English V sounds, whereas the Latin that the Romans spoken (in the golden age) likely had a hard C sound in all cases and V was more akin to the English W sound. If your goal is realism, then Classical is the pronunciation you want, especially when certain texts were composed with that pronunciation in mind for rhymes or metre. If you are Catholic, then most will use EL. Depends on your goal I guess. Since I only use Latin to read and don’t wish to learn it conversationally, I use Classical pronunciation but I pronounce the V like English. You can make up your own pronunciation if you’re not planning on interacting with others audibly.

>>19834084
What do you think about the criticism of Luke's vowels?
I just want to use classical pronunciation but is Luke a decent source for that?

>>19834084
>It is completely anachronistic if your goal is to speak (or read out loud) Latin as Romans would have spoken like.
That is not my goal. I don't view Latin as an archeological artifact but as something that still has some manner of life in the world, though people like you have done much work in killing it. Latin does not belong solely to the ancient Romans. It did not die with them but continued on in continuous use until today and is thus our possession as well. Indeed there are other local manners of pronunciation, but most have died out, for example the English pronunciation only exists in terms carried into English and is never learned as a system for use in Latin itself. The Italian pronunciation has the benefit of ecclesiastical tradition, being easy to learn, being pleasant to the ear (unlike the grating classical reconstruction), and also still has living use in the world. Do I miss out on a metrical reading of the classical poets? Indeed I do, but this is but a small fraction of the extant Latin literature, most of which is consigned to the dustbin by your ilk.

>>19834130
I'm not that anon and I don't know anything about these Youtube people. But the standard academic source on the matter is Vox Latina by Sydney Allen. It has a section on recommended pronunciation at the end.

>>19834157
I like Latin of all periods. I don’t categorize what is more authentic based on when it was written, only that it conforms to Latin grammar correctly, so I’ll read anything. If larping as a 18th century Italian monk is what you dig, then go ahead and use that pronunciation. 99% of the Latin you will interact with is written texts likely from before you were born, so why try to revive something that is actually dead? Do you have a preferred pronunciation for when reading Egyptian hieroglyphics too?

>your “ilk”

Haha wow you are so gay

>>19834130
>>19834242
He also has a similar book on Greek (Vox Graeca) if you are interested.

>>19834242
He reads out Lingua Latina using classical pronunciation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zt19wzsW-c
I want to listen and then repeat his pronunciation

>>19834244
It's humorous that you would accuse me of larping when I am using the only pronunciation that has any use in the real world. It must be a larp to you because Latin is a corpse to you. I refer to your "ilk" because you carry the mindset of turning Latin into an archaeology project. The emphasis on the reconstructed pronunciation is a core facet of this and did its fair share in killing Latin as a continuing literary language.
>>19834278
If you actually want to imitate that I feel sorry for you. His distinction between short and long vowels is exaggerated and unnatural (compare a living language with this distinction such as Japanese). The heavy use of elision is obnoxious and will not help you.

>>19834306
Do you think his use of elision is unhistorical?
Ignoring any aesthetic judgements of it ofc
If you think imitation is bad how would you suggest I learn it? Because nearly every polyglot online suggests either shadowing or repetition in order to learn pronunciation

>>19834321
>Do you think his use of elision is unhistorical?
It's something you need to understand if you want to undertake metrical scansion but using it like that while reading a beginner prose text is ridiculous.
>If you think imitation is bad how would you suggest I learn it? Because nearly every polyglot online suggests either shadowing or repetition in order to learn pronunciation
Who are you going to speak with that you need perfect pronunciation of the reconstructed pronunciation? You can't even have that to begin with because you'll never hear what it sounded like in the mouth of a Roman. There are good conclusions about what the sounds actually were, the vowel quality, but as for how it was really spoken, the rhythm of speech, etc. this is just some guy's larp. Does it actually sound like a real language to you?

>>19834356
So with Latin elision is only a feature of poetry and not everyday speech like it is with French?
If so I can kind of understand that
Also I don't want to read latin aloud using english consonants and vowels, that's why I want to get good at pronouncing the reconstructed classical pronunciation

>>19834306
Spoken Latin in general is a larp, not just when spoken using Church Latin pronunciation. There are zero native speakers, so no input on what is correct or awkward. (Just because something may be grammatically correct doesn’t make it natural.) If you want to make Latin alive and were successful, then in a few centuries you’d have changes in pronunciation and grammar to the point that it would just be a pidgin or an artificial Romance language. Language does not follow orthography or texts, so you can’t force people to follow them as a rule for good Latin. It is good that Latin is dead; nothing changes now and it is fixed in its current form. Luigi Miraglia explains this much better

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_OyhWKTmJBo

It’s in your Ecclesiastical pronunciation too so it should be easier

>>19834373
>So with Latin elision is only a feature of poetry and not everyday speech like it is with French?
It was not specific to poetry but its actual use for the modern learner is in metrical scansion, should you be interested in that.
>Also I don't want to read latin aloud using english consonants and vowels, that's why I want to get good at pronouncing the reconstructed classical pronunciation
There is also the Italian or "ecclesiastical" pronunciation. But if you want to use the classical pronunciation I would suggest looking at the recommended pronunciation in Vox Latina. Modern textbooks tend to follow that (I think Wheelock's pronunciation section is basically the same). I would not recommend trying to reproduce elision or the nasalization that is said to occur for words ending in -m.

>>19834402
He's actually not following it strictly as I heard him pronounce mihi with the 'h'. In ecclesiastic the 'h' is always silent except in certain words (like mihi) where it is pronounced like 'k'.

>>19834244
>If larping as a 18th century Italian monk
No no see an 18th century monk believed that kissing Jesus's foreskin would make him go to heaven and this is arbitrarily closer to my aesthetic preferences that I got entirely through the internet than cringe neofagan LARPers like Cicero, Caesar, and Cato, so by definition the 18th century monk is not LARPing but is entirely authentic.

>>19834455
meanwhile in trve avthentic latin >>19834278

>>19830790
Hey, I'm taking Latin, and there's another girl in my Latin class. She's Indian though so I dunno if that counts. But I don't have a boyfriend. I have no idea if she does. She said she knows some Sanskrit because she was exposed to it from childhood, though.

>>19830793
There are no female jews?

>>19832929
Why? What do you use instead?
>>19833521
Well I'm sorry, but facts don't care about your feelings. We have all kinds of evidence for how ancient Latin sounded- misspellings, transliterations, comparison to descendants and other IE languages, even explicit statements about pronunciation from the Romans themselves.

>>19833913
>an 18th ce treatise on demons from the 18th ce
Not an 18th century treatise from the 12th century or the 21st century?

>>19834306
Maybe one has to exaggerate it for learning's sake. When I hear beginner courses of Mandarin, for instance, even those read by native speakers, they seem to exaggerate the tones for the sake of making them audible to the learner, whereas in normal speech they would be more subtle.

>>19834402
Wasn't spoken Latin used in universities and monasteries long after it died as a vernacular, though?

Just started learning modern Greek in the hopes of facilitating the study of ancient Greek.

>>19834306
>His distinction between short and long vowels is exaggerated and unnatural

I'm sure it's exaggerated on purpose to illustrate the difference to dummies like me who can't hear it.

I'd eventually like to start reading Latin poetry, but I just can't 'hear' the rhythm at all.

>>19834665
Yes. The way Latin was taught from the middle ages up until the end of the Renaissance was done in Latin and expected the students to be able to both write and speak in it. Naturally when the vernaculars took over shortly after, oral Latin kind of died off in the universities and primary schools.

>>19834618
You must be a man to be a woman, therefore jews are not women

Enough talk of bald man! What do you guys think of Magister Craft?

>>19835984
Very cool. For anyone who hasn't seen the vids: https://www.youtube.com/c/DivusMagisterCraft/

Also Carla has Minecraft Latin videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXi1m1_th92pN-AplGGqpHWHrg-ujykFk

>>19834306
he says that it's mainly for pedagogical purposes and that real latin would sound more like this https://youtu.be/FzRgIl3Ebvc

What would happen to latin if it became mainstream?

>>19835984
>>19836512
Someone should make a lengthy minecraft letsplay in latin. Not something as an educational thing, but just for immersion and latin practice purposes.
I think minecraft has latin in is languages options right?

>>19836565
If by mainstream you mean popular with English speaking normies:

It won't.

1. You can't even get Americans to learn Spanish which has considerably easier conjugations, simple phonology, consistent spelling, plenty of native speakers both locally and abroad, and no declensions. And if you can't get Americans on board, it's dead on arrival. Considering most of the world is dominated by English, Spanish, French, Arabic, Hindi, and Chinese speaking cultures - with Americans being the dominant English cultural influence.

2. The only people in this part of the world who still study Latin are conservative Christians who use Latin as a dead language and never go beyond the Vulgate or secular academics & hobbyists. It's too difficult to become a dominant hobby for normies.

3. There is no clear roadmap on how to learn it and this will filter most language learners who just want to be pointed to 1 app or book or youtube channel which will teach them everything they want to know. If you want to learn Latin, before you even start learning you have the challenge of figuring out why you want to learn and how it informs what resources you use. You really have to craft an individual study plan from the ground up. Again, too much work for most normies who can barely handle French with a teacher and tons of apps and YouTube videos.

>>19836583
I think I saw a guy who did Final Fantasy let plays in Latin. Can't find it anymore

>>19834665
>>19835037
the mathematician Dirichlet was refused a doctorate in Prussia as late as 1827 because he was unable to defend his dissertation in Latin
they eventually gave him an honorary doctorate instead

>>19834632
>Why? What do you use instead?
The Italian pronunciation.
>We have all kinds of evidence...
Indeed, we know what the letters sounded like but we don't know how this actually sounded in real life from a Roman. To truly imitate a language you have to be able to hear it, which is something no one can do. It's why almost everyone who uses this pronunciation sounds like a retard when they speak.
>>19834648
>>19834985
>>19836556
The fast-spoken video is of course better, but speaking like a machine gun and exaggerating things until they sound ridiculous are not the only options. Again compare to Japanese, they can speak slowly for learners without sounding like this. It's not just the vowels either. Listen to the flowery way he modulates his voice, which so many people do when they use this pronunciation. Again this occurs because there is no real referent to determine how this truly sounded.

>>19836602
>3. There is no clear roadmap on how to learn it and this will filter most language learners who just want to be pointed to 1 app or book or youtube channel which will teach them everything they want to know. If you want to learn Latin, before you even start learning you have the challenge of figuring out why you want to learn and how it informs what resources you use. You really have to craft an individual study plan from the ground up. Again, too much work for most normies who can barely handle French with a teacher and tons of apps and YouTube videos.
LLPSI (part 1 and 2) + grammar book + latin dictionary = success

>>19836723
>Listen to the flowery way he modulates his voice, which so many people do when they use this pronunciation.
It reminds me of the people who try to replicate the Greek pitch accent, e.g.
https://soundcloud.com/rhapsodoi/aristophanes-birds-227-262-english-and-greek-perf-by-stephen-g-daitz

>>19836704
Dirichlet more like brainlet

>>19836848
That wasn't nice

>>19834611
Indians are a very endogamous people, good luck if you intend on getting with that girl

>>19836897
Don't worry Pajeet, I am pretty sure you are replying to a woman.

>>19836773
this shows that most academics don't have any language feeling. You can make a proper pitch accent without sounding like a dying cat. It's just a slight switch to a higher voice register. Ioannis Stratakis does it in a subtle and plausible way: https://youtu.be/g1mOT1RH8o8

>>19837065
Yes, that sounds much better. I wonder what it is about the reconstructed pronunciations that make people want to sound so histrionic when they use them. For Greek I like the modern pronunciation but it's very impractical to learn due to collapsing the vowel phonemes, so the spelling becomes only partially phonetic.

>>19837101
>For Greek I like the modern pronunciation but it's very impractical to learn
I mean that it's impractical to use while learning ancient Greek. It itself is easy to understand but when you try to learn the language this way you end up having lots of difficulty with spelling.

>>19837102
I know a few people who used Erasmian when learning Greek, and then switching to modern pronunciation after they were competent in the language. This also helped them get inpoot by listening to modern Greek.

I am a Latin student and I haven't done Greek yet, so I have no idea if this is moronic bullshit.

>>19837143
The issue with the modern pronunciation is that it only has five vowel sounds, so for example
ο, ω are both pronounced [o]
ε, αι are both pronounced [e], and worst of all:
η, ι, υ, ει, οι, υι are all pronounced the same, as [i]
So spelling becomes rather difficult. For example take the word συντίθημι, all the vowels are pronounced the same.

>>19837143
(cont.) But of course this pronunciation is the one used in Greek as it is spoken today. Also if you were involved with the Greek Orthodox Church this is the pronunciation they would use in their liturgy, which is Koine. So whether it is useful for you would depend on what you are using Greek for.

It's an opposite situation to Latin, where a modern pronunciation makes the language easier, but in Greek it makes it harder.

The Latin translation of ossian is not that good

>>19836602
How much easier is Spanish than Latin?

>>19837619
It's a full language you have to learn so it will not be easy, but you will have much less difficulty than in Latin.

>>19828316
I'm learning middle Egyptian anon. Not very far in, admittedly, but it's pretty neat. The hieroglyphs are cool and the grammar usually makes sense, but there are instances where things are done a certain way just because, like honorific transpositions having seemingly arbitrary and unclear distinctions from the words they're coupled with

>>19837768
Dont say you're learning a language and have just started

>>19837768
Honorific transpositions aren't a problem at all.
The problem is that the hieroglyphs were never modified as the language evolved, so some letters are missing entirely.
nswt-bjtj has no 'N' in it. They dropped it to condense it.
Ts were lost as the language evolved, sometimes they just don't write it, sometimes they do.

Has anyone here learnt Pali? I'm interested in reading into the suttas. I had one semester of Sanskrit back in college, but didn't get very far through Lanman. Would it be better to pick up a Pali textbook (Warder or de Silva seem to be the most recommended) and work through that, or to learn more Sanskrit first (I figure similar to learning Attic before Koine)?

>>19836773
I cannot believe that this guy was a professor emeritus of classics and thought that Greek sounded like that.

>>19838024
https://soundcloud.com/rhapsodoi/sappho-1-perf-by-stephen-g-daitz

>>19838024
Here's one from someone different
https://soundcloud.com/rhapsodoi/menander-dyskolos-711-747-perf-by-mark-miner

>>19838046
>>19838077
why do you keep linking these? is this some sort of a sick joke?

>>19838113
This is what distinguished practitioners of the Reconstructed Pronunciation™ think is correct.

>>19835037
>oral Latin kind of died off in the universities and primary schools
this is somewhat true but as this anon >>19836583 says, it was still in practice in the 19th ce. In France, for example, when Jules Ferry created public education, plebs were given a classical education. Rimbaud, a country pleb, was able to read and write both Latin and ancient Greek at the expense of the government. Although, it wasn't as thorough as a rich kid in Paris going to a private school. Also, dissertations for BAs were still written in Latin but idk if it was compulsory.

What's the most effective way to memorise more vocabulary?

>>19838298
Actually using them. Active > passive knowledge.

>>19837619
It is the easiest language for a native English speaker. Literally every single language on the planet will be harder then Spanish.

I would say that Latin is similar in difficulty to German = easier than Russian, but harder then French.

>>19837781
Don't be that guy

>>19837864
Supposedly Pali has simpler grammar since it's not as old.

>>19835916
>You must be a man to be a woman
I would have thought NOT being a man is a prerequisite to being a woman in most cases. Generally speaking, people aren't both at once.

>>19836773
I'd like to hear how Ancient Greek pitch accent sounds in the mouth of a native speaker of a language with pitch accent, like Serbo-Croatian.

>>19836909
He is, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in women too. No idea if she is though.

>>19837143
>This also helped them get inpoot by listening to modern Greek.
That doesn't seem that helpful for learning Ancient Greek; they're related but they're not really the same language. What would be useful is listening to audio of Ancient Greek; I'm not sure whether there's more in Erasmian, proper reconstructed, or modern.

>>19837619
In the languages per se I don't think there's a huge difference, but Spanish is a lot easier because there's tons and tons of modern materials, easy materials for learners, audio and video, native speakers to talk to, etc.

>>19838298
Lots of reading basically, but if some words just won't stick you could try Anki.

>>19838787
Anki seems very ineffective. I have a 700-800 word deck but keep forgetting words constantly. But yeah, reading is probably the best way, especially with prepositions.

>>19838832
For me I've found that it's quite effective if I can only stick with it.

>>19838832
I hate Anki, I keep trying to use this thing, but it's so fucking dumb.

>>19838855
Dumb how?

>>19836773
philosophers in the agora sounded like this huh

>>19838887
Let us be charitable and hope that is not the case.

>>19838757
I'm a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian, I hope to try out the Greek pitch-accent

>>19836773
this shit str8 bussin frfr tho

>>19838898
Give it a shot some time and post it here!

>>19838757
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdyXlUmD3v4
This is done by native Greek speaker

>>19838920
I said someone who's native language has pitch accent, not a native Greek speaker (modern Greek having stress accent) but they do handle it pretty well.

>>19838878
I get why people use it for Kanji. But this really just tests your ability to recognize vocabulary, not really to produce it yourself.

I wonder what the best resources for each classical language would be

So uh, what do you guys think of the Romans?

>>19839140
They became decent after they converted to Christianity.

>>19839020
It aids with recall too if you make the cards two-sided, I'd think. Though I think you should start using definitions in that language rather than translations as early as you're able to.

>>19839247
The problem is it takes way too much time to make decks like that and most premade decks are awful because they show you the word first, then the answer is the translation.

>>19839462
>because they show you the word first, then the answer is the translation.
If you know a bit about how to use Anki, you can invert this and set the front and back of the cards to show whichever fields you want them to.

>>19836773
For the retards who don't know, the text he's reading is full of onomatopoeias imitating the sounds of birds.
Imagine if I were to show an example of "English pronunciation" with a text that just goes "pee pee pee twit twit cock-a-doodle-doo'

>>19840093
Here he is reading Demosthenes and it's only slightly more restrained.
https://soundcloud.com/rhapsodoi/demosthenes-on-the-crown-199-208-perf-by-stephen-g-daitz

>>19836773
That sounds great honestly
Maybe I should try to learn ancient Greek

>>19840131
You are dumb. Here's one that sounds good, though.
https://soundcloud.com/rhapsodoi/pindar-olympian-1_1-58-perf-by-william-mullen

>>19840130
kino

>>19839140
Pretty cool

>>19839173
Haha the empire fell right after that

>>19821912
Peace be upon you as well

I've stared reading Imitatio Christi, and I'm blown away because it's the first Christian text that actually might make some sense to me.

In Herodotus there's this famous phrase from Hippocleides: οὐ φροντὶς Ἱπποκλείδῃ
That is, "Hippocleides doesn't care". Is Ἱπποκλείδῃ declined in the dative? If so, would it be grammatically correct to say οὐ φροντὶς Ἀλεξάνδρῳ?

>>19841265
Yes. think of φροντὶς as thought for, concern for, etc.
>no matter to Hippokleides!
or less colloquially
>it is not a concern for Hippokleides
Same goes for Alexander/Paris

>>19841295
Thanks!

>>19822453
Straight. He's dating some Italian snack at the moment.

>>19841669
He's one of those guys who's incapable of dating a regular girl in his own country, he has to be an eccentric foreigner with an interesting job and decent language skills compared to other tourists in order for him to stand out. Also helps that he has 2 popular YouTube channels and an arrogant personality.

>>19841685
cope

I like Latin