/lit/ - Literature

When will writers finally acknowledge the play as the most worthy medium—you write a good character and actors will speak your lines for centuries

Everyone in /wg/ writes :D

the girl who is interested in my writing is also a writer
so now not only do i have to write, but it also has to be good FUCK

>>19807820
I promised my mom I'd finish the story I was writing for her this month. I still have 3500 words to go.
I'm going to make it. And if I can make it, so can you.

>>19807845
Is she good though?

>>19807848
Im gonna sit down and write after work, I need to force this habit like I did reading. Nothing else I do afterwork has any substance. Got a number of prompts of things I wanted to change and need to start going through them.

>>19807842
Nobody gives a fuck about the writers even if Youtube is a gorillion years of people complaining about the writing in shit.

Always get paid.

Tinkering with a plot - tedious work - suddenly the sky clears - the story writes itself.

That’s not Kate Moss…

>beta reader said he liked my story

>>19807861
>Im gonna sit down and write after work, I need to force this habit like I did reading. Nothing else I do afterwork has any substance
Same. Last year I wasted so much time YouTube surfing and playing around online. I've replaced most of that with writing and now I'm making actual progress. Feels great man.

I feel disgusted and unhappy with what I've written so far. At least I have formed something of a habit.

I'd say the difference between pulp and serious literature is that in pulp, the writer only reproduces the surface of people, he doesn't live through his hero's suffering and he doesn't give him a real inner life, instead, he has him make gestures that signal inner life, but there really is none - pulp heroes are hollow. Brecht loved to read Edgar Wallace, the great master Edgar Wallace, he called him. Pulp fiction can be compared to Brechtian theater, while serious fiction resembles Stanislawski theater. With Brecht it is the gesture, the separation of actor and character; with Stanislawski it is the blending of actor and character.

>>19807861
yeah it's hard trying to work fulltime and still write. i've always done the bulk of my writing during periods of unemployment. but if you're either a morning or evening writer you can make it work. i never want to write until 4pm anyway (though when unemployed i start at noon even if i have to force myself). so if i work until 5pm i'm only losing an hour, right? and i started thinking it's less of a big deal, rather than the insecurity and anxiety of unemployment which probably hinders writing more.

i'm wfh though. commute just kills all desire to write. with wfh i just roll over to my personal laptop and begin. office slavery kills the soul.

I can't make music nor can I act. The only thing left is to be a writer hack!

>wrote a book without doing any worldbuilding at all
>it was shit
Whoops

>>19808397
And when that won't work either, you'll be nothing.

>>19808407
Expand on the worldbuilding in subsequent drafts.

>>19808411
>And when that won't work either, you'll be nothing.
Already been published, chuddy. I just don't like writing as much as I'd like to be a musician getting pussy or an actor getting pussy.

So, uh, Wattpad?Should I make a Gigachad profile and write werewolf porn for teenage girls there?

>>19808535
Why are you asking us? Is it for attention? Or are you really unsure? If you are unsure, then don't do it. Writers should have unwavering faith in what they do.

>>19808535
Is that something you want to read? Write what you want to read.

do any of you write comics?

How the fuck do I get better? Everything I've ever written has been rejected, which I know is normal, but I used to feel a sense of progress, I could see that my prose was getting better. That's gone now. Everything I write is garbage and it's not getting better. How the fuck do I actually improve?

>>19808652
>>>/co/
There's actually a "how's your own web comic" general all the time there. They'd be better for you than this place. Lots of them self-publish their own stories that they write and draw.

>>19808658
you can improve your ideas, and your craft. there are two components. by 'ideas' i dont' mean your 'worldbuilding' or 'magic system' or other z0i bugman shit. i mean your soul.

>>19808730
>your ideas, and your craft.
Care to explain what they are? Outside of negating worldbuilding and magic systems, and whatever else that includes, there wasn't much specification.

>>19808418
No, I'll just write a better book

>>19808730
>i mean your soul.
That makes sense, thank you
Physician, heal thyself

>>19808658
Figure out what is lacking and learn by example how to make it better. I studied a bunch of literary devices, took the ones I like for my style and categorized them by utility. If I need clarity, emphasis, etc I use one. If a character feels boring I explore their motivations and see where conflict might arise. If my the rise and fall of the plot is stilted I adjust pacing by word, line, paragraph within a chapter as necessary. Those are at least what Ive changed so far.

>>19808807
How'd you learn to focus on those things? Did you come to the conclusions yourself? Because that's really good advice.

>>19808807
Anytime someone posts good sounding advice like this, I can't help but wonder what their writing actually reads like. Part of me always nurses the hope that the writing is actually good and so the advice is actionable. Experience almost always proves otherwise.

PYW anon.

>>19808876
That's the thing anon. The best teachers are not always the best performers.

>>19808827
I'm a different anon.

You've written books and sent them to publishers, and yet his advice seems new to you? Did you just write off the cuff or did you also look into the theory of storytelling?

>>19808827
Im not conscious of it all in first draft especially not for prose, but I learned about the terms from basic research on writing stories and prose. I think of it like a sketch on the first draft then address the weaknesses one draft at a time. The hardest to change problems come first and the longer your story the sooner you should fix them. Later drafts can elucidate theme, style, then prose, them line editing to make every word count. This is why we do drafts, you cant think about all that at once.
If I go literary fiction route a lot of things go out the window because the pillars of what readers expect change. At least with what I know I dont have to attempt a masterpiece forva debut story.

>>19808893
not him. it seems like a lot of posters here, and presumably 95% of "writers", just want to shit out 80k words of ass juice off the cuff and get paid a million for it. no consideration of craft or substance. they are too lazy to learn, they are too egoistic to improve, they are too arrogant to self-reflect. they are the writer equivalent of deviantart "artists", all convinced they're a genius

lmao good for me, they can succ and stay succ

>>19808658
Check out Blake Synder's Save the Cat! Goes to the Movies. It's a good beginner's book for story structure.

>>19808893
>new to you
No, I said it was very good advice. I don't know what you're reading into what I said. Please specify.
>theory of storytelling
I know about story shapes and frequently use dictionary of literary terms to find techniques I should use. i don't read the books in the OP because they're shit, and I have actual textbooks for poetic rhythm I'm using. I have sent off novellas and chapbooks, yes, and I have even got acceptances. I don't think many agents or publishers even read the submissions, though, as they only dismiss you based on the cover letters.
>>19808926
Post your work then, if you're so good.
>>19808901
That makes sense, I usually only see problems with pace after having a break and going back. And I get you with reader's expectations and different modes/genres, which is always tricky, but I'm sure there's pleasure to be had in playing around with those expectations.

>>19808876
Im Southern Gothic anon, Ive got my fair share of criticism for posting disjointed scenes with comma splices, tense errors, and explaining things too soon. I'm not talented, take my tips for what they are, just trying to be conscious of them. I'd love to improve my understanding of working parts but really need to put in more work. What Ive learned from literary novels recently is that the way pacing, plot, perspective and prose can be wildly idiosyncratic and still be a gripping story. I have much to learn before I can comprehend how Sound and the Fury actually gripped me the way it did.
Recently an anon said my sentences were shorter than the average /wg/ story, but I think it's because I had a hurried pace because chapter 1 is dangerous.

>>19808652
no but would like to try.

>>19808963
>Post your work then, if you're so good.
look, they just get asspained when you point out their complete lack of professionalism. every poster like this expects their crappy fantasy ripoff they crapped out while on the toilet to make bank and be a viral hit. just imagine. 95% of "writers" are like this. go to other writer communities and take a look. they're all garbage human beings with no work ethic or professional pride.

>>19808963
>Please specify.
I'd rather not. You do your thing. It seems to be working fine, with your acceptances and all.

>>19809056
You could just post your work instead of gloating about being better than the dummies... I'll start for you, here's a poem I wrote:
>The ripe and golden wheat in highest rot!
>Preternatural horrors wading quick
>Through meadows of brit, azure of colour.
>Again, the phantom went all under keel,
>The mad yeast which he brewed is bubbling thick:
>Cucumbers is the word--the barking Cap.
>>19809057
Alright.

>>19809077
>forever link your identity and career to a nazi frog cartoon website to prove one seething retard that he is indeed a seething retard
lmao nah. you can refuse to learn and grow, and harm only yourself by doing so. not my problem. but dont come here and post retardation with 0 effort, only to expect spoonfeeding.

>>19809108
Good thing that "retardation with 0 effort" is a cut-up poem of Melville's Moby-Dick (with some added parts). The exercise was done to show that even in a novel, Melville has almost flawless rhythm. I wouldn't expect a pleb like you to see Melville when it's posted, though.

>>19809056
>>19808926
I hope I don't end up that way because envy can destroy a man. Sudden success or even the expectation of it has its risks. I already have a day job, had it for years, and got promoted too. There are just stories I want to tell, ideas I want to explore and see what emerges.

>>19809125
is this b8? i didn't read it dude and i dont care.
>>19809143
just work on improving and write to save your own soul.

>>19809149
So you're a simpleton who responds to people out of a need for dopamine response. I can safely discard every bit of preaching you've done of late, then.

>>19809158
okay. succ and stay succ then, genius. what are you trying to accomplish here? that i told you 'imrpoving takes effort' and it made you seethe, now you are lashing out blindly? can you even identify what you are angry about?

Can /wg/ help him?

>>19809174
I think you're projecting, so I'll just say goodbye.

>>19809175
>Can /wg/ help him?
"Yo, call your editor, dummy, and ask him. lol"

>>19809175
Shave your neck dumbass.

>>19809175
I initially read it as u/russky_sheckelordd.

>>19809218
>5'10
>450 lbs
holy... BMI of 64.56

>sent 2 more queries during lunch hour

>>19809266
What's your genre anon? Good luck!

>>19807909
YGMI

>>19809175
damn i really want to know what that means too

How should I structure a scene focused on what a character is saying and others' reactions to it? Should I have the character say everything and then break down the other's reactions, or should I have the character say something, have others react, and then continue the character's speech?

>>19809383
Depends on what you want to achieve? Could you tell us about the scene you're trying to build or what part of the story it's taking place in? Many monologues have been interspersed with reactions, either implied or stated outright. Look how there's actions implied by the speech of the characters here.

>>19809175
Hermano I'm afraid this is an American board

Worldbuilding is fun. I might even commission some world maps.

>>19810071
Hey, I would appreciate some feedback on a story I wrote. I was trying to avoid anything purple, but to me, my writing feels a bit simple and perhaps repetitive.

>>19810071
>>19810075
The prose isn't bad, really, it's the story that's boring: nothing's happening. It felt like a century when I read it. The end was alright, I guess: when the bloke said that his umbrella blew away, I almost cracked a smile.

>>19809175
>I've been found out...

>>19807820
My personal blog post: After rewriting my first chapter 3 times I finally feel like I've had a breakthrough and got some momentum going on the book - things are clicking. My only past novel attempt fell apart due to a lot of beginner mistakes (weak characters, mediocre plotting) but the pieces are all there as with each rewrite I've improved character motivation and long term plotting. I've learned a lot so I see a really clear path forward.

Also I'm really liking the change to 1st person, it's just really refreshing to be so directly in the scene and seems to be helping me with my biggest weakness of making engaging characters (I think still a lot of development needed there). I just hope I can get the end product to match my vision, but feeling optimistic and enjoying the process.

>>19810300
Glad to hear things are working out for you.

>>19810071
>>19810075
This is a good example of how length should be commensurate to the magnitude of reversal. An autist trying to hit on a girl by hiding her umbrella only to (predictably) embarrass himself should not require so many words.

>>19808071
>I feel disgusted and unhappy with what I've written so far.
same. but that's what second drafts are for. or so i tell myself

>>19810401
not that anon
my first draft from 3 years ago was so bad it still makes me cringe. now my large scale rewrite is completely saving the story from its previous lousy writing and actually turning it into something of value i can be proud of. (previously wrote, then rewrote, then finished a different novel, in the 3 years in between.)

it really takes a lot of confidence because more than once i've been like, "yeah, all of this has to go." whether a section, concept, or entire chapters.

>>19810584
Can you give an example of your improvements? A before and after between the two texts could be educational and funny.

>>19810232
>>19810386
I did a quick edit and shortened it by a third.

>>19810647
now shorten it by a third again

>>19810386
Nah. The length helps to emphasize the autism aspect. Nobody else would struggle that much.

I'm giving myself cringe to a nearly debilitating level. It's the start of the story though. The guy gets better, rather quickly. He's not the main character. He's allowed to turn his life around by having a sudden adventure and a successful erection.

But damn is it hard to write a 19 year old coomer who still lives with his mother who pretends she's also 19 to get one night stands from older men (ie men her age) and he thinks it's enough of a relationship that he goes into VR and has anonymous sex

>>19810690
I agree. Or make a haiku out of it. The umbrella idea alone does not carry a short story.

>narrative is high key about character refinding his faith in God
kino or unpublishable?

>>19810833
kino AND unpublishable

>>19810855
>kino AND unpublishable
fantastic. that is the highest honor attainable.
>If the people of this world hate you, just remember that they hated me first.

>>19810071
I just got off an almost 11 hour work day anon, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt but I liked it. There were a few sentences that felt off to me, though.
>potential outcomes of his various actions
Feels awkward. I might just cut that whole part.
>the two greens blending
That actually felt a little too simple to me. I know simpler is usually better but in this case I think something more fancy about the “green of the umbrella disappearing into the leaves” would be better.
“Hotly waiting” doesn’t really made sense. I think you mean to say he was flushed but it sounds a little awkward.
>where the lacquered wooden handle
I would get rid of the where and just make this it’s own sentence.
> ingratiating himself
We can already guess Sam is trying to ingratiate himself with her. I think it sounds a little worse if you say that.
Like I said, though, it was pretty good. Enjoyed reading it.

>>19810833
Kino if you make it a result of a relapse into severe schizophrenia

I've got seven short stories that Idk what to do with. Never gotten any real comments on my writing from anyone and I kinda need to know if I'm worth a damn.

>>19810690
>>19811082
I had one more go of it. Thanks for all your advice anons.

>>19810833
Check out Antelope Hill Publishing. They're probably be really interested in this kind of thing.

>>19811562
Fuck you. Now I want to sit and watch as Sam slowly realizes bitches be cruel and he never stood a shot because he was an over-Romantic SIMP who put pussy on a pedestal. Not because I want to watch him hurt, but because I need to know he learned bitches ain't shit.

>>19811563
https://antelopehillpublishing.com/publish-me/
>their submissions page has a large, prominent image of Mishima
incredibly based. not quite right for my current manuscript but their nonfiction section is juicy. might buyfag from them if i run out of pirated material.

>researching something for story
>find blatant inaccuracy on wikipedia page
>no idea how to fix it because i'm not a bugman
yeah ... never use that shit without checking another (actual book) source.

>>19811562
I could write a whole post just about your first line. It’s very clumsy and drawn out. Earlier anons suggested you cut the piece by 1/3. I think you removed content, where you should have trimmed the fat from each line.
My attempt:
>Sam Taylor licked his chapped lips. They get like this when the weather turns cold, and there’s been a continuous chilly rain this whole week.

Starting with chapped lips and complaining about weather doesn’t promise much excitement…but it’s actually a good character intro.

Strongly suggest leaving the word ‘foyer’ out of the first line. I don’t have a better reason than i instinctively hate it. Maybe it’s because it has multiple pronunciations in english, and i don’t yet have the context to decide which to use. Idk, might just be me.

Corrections and 1k words today

do people take short story collections seriously? I wanna write a short story collection but I feel paranoid that people are gonna be like "One of these eight stories sucks so the whole book sucks by association"

>>19811924
Your suggestion isn't much better than what he had desu. It's not even grammatically correct (you switch tense for no reason).

>>19811562
This reads much better than the original. However, I agree with the above anon that your next task is to clean up all the sentences. Your first line is abysmal. It's two different thoughts crammed into one sentence. And count how many times you use the word "umbrella". It's too many.

Beyond the prose, there's still some problems with structure. The turn is weak because it comes too soon and that, in turn, affects the ending, making it limp. It should end with the revelation, possibly after Sam retrieves the umbrella and probably after more build up from Milly's side (you can achieve the effect by using the technique of unreliable narrator). You really need to convince the reader that maybe Sam might have a shot after all before you pull out the knife.

However, that sort of story has been done before. It's a "received story", something that has the sense of "I've heard this before". You need to plumb a little deeper to find something novel and true. Hiding the umbrella is ridiculous and good. In a certain sense it's "honest" because it's not something just anyone could have come up with. Start there. Then consider all the variations. Sam hides the umbrella, strikes out, and then leaves her in the rain out of spite. OK. But he could also give her his umbrella and steal hers. Or she could find the umbrella. Or he could return the umbrella anyway. Or he could come clean. Or SHE could come clean (there's no boyfriend--she stole the umbrella). Or the umbrella is gone. Or it's not even the right umbrella. Or the umbrella is ruined. Or Sam's umbrella is ruined. Or her boyfriend shows up with an umbrella. Or Sam's wife shows up. &c.

>>19811889
>fix it
>it gets reverted back and you get banned because the writer is also the mod of the page and is butthurt
Mods were a mistake. Even here I can feel their disgusting gazes monitoring my posts for no monetary compensation.

>>19812222
You could just report them for vandalism with screenshots. That is, if you're actually right and can prove it.

>>19811543
>I've got seven short stories that Idk what to do with.
If you post one I'll tell you what I think.

>>19811562
now remove all adverbs

do any of you do freelance?

>>19811562
I don't want to poopoo your piece any more, but the thing with the umbrella is not enough for a short story. I think it would be funny as a comic in the newspaper: panel one and two are the set up (he hides the umbrella and takes it out again), panel three is the punchline (he accidentally hid his own umbrella).

It's not a story, it's a joke. No amount of shortening will fix that. You'd've to make a three sentenced thing out of it. Imagine telling an audience the umbrella bit, and telling it as a joke (length: 3 to 5 sentences): it'll get you a chuckle. Now tell your story to the same audience: they'd be baffled. "What is this? Stick with jokes, Steinbeck! Boo! Boo!"

>>19808930
ahh yes, Blake Snyder the illustrious screenwriter of cinematic masterpieces like Blank Check, everyone's favourite tv series Kids Incorporated and who could forget his tour de force, the absolute pinnacle of Sylvester Stallone's career "Stop! or my mom will shoot"
>>19810071
I was drawn in enough to wonder if he would fess up or not.

>>19813017
>ahh yes, Blake Snyder...
The man is a genius. And everyone in the industry knows it. His fifteen beats is the most used structural principle in the world of film. It's everywhere. And I know that for a fact. I'm a film producer in Hollywood. Heck, you have probably seen some of my movies. So if I were you, whoever you are lol, I'd keep my yap shut. Come to Hollywood. Work the industry. See for yourself. Blake is THE guy.

>>19812124
Write a short story every week for a year then make a collection of the best

>>19813056
Hollywood's dead pal. It's passé. It's washed up. It's all about streaming and tik-tokers now pal, you missed the boat, you're on the wharf waving at the fog, waving at nothing. You're in an old man's game and it's the final boss. Hollywood ain't coming back. The final curtain has drawn. The fat lady sang. They finished the last drop of Chartreuse and everyone is calling an Uber. I hope you get backend on your box office receipts because otherwise you'll be charging for your backend in your brown box office - I mean soliciting anal sex on the Santa Monica Boulevard. Blake is history because film is history. It's dead like the dodo. Save the cat? how about he save's his widow's pussy from all the whorring she's gonna have to do to now that there's only blank check residuals for blank check. 15 beats, how about 15 beats of your meat. How's that for a beginning a middle and an end? How's that for a three act structure? I know that's Syd Field, and he's dead too, like your career pal

>>19813093

>>19813126
Is that the face of a john when he's coming through your brown box office? "Oh yeah Schekelberg, here's your net gross"
>b-oioioioioioi-ing
That's the check bouncing... in your ass... because you're in a industry with diminishing revenue which will force you to prostitute yourself to maintain the life you're accustomed to. You're finished Producerberg!

I'm writing a rape scene. I didn't set out to write a rape scene, but I'm realizing now that I have to. Granted, my protagonist is going to be raped himself by a female hobo (who has thinning hair and shit-stained fingers), so at least it's not going to be your normal "/wg/anon writes a rape scene" kind of rape, but it's still a fucking rape scene and fuck you.

>>19813226
Based. My... sort-of antagonist is going to get raped by the daughter of the mob boss he works for. She's at least cute though. The non-consensual aspect is because teh mob boss has previously threatened to castrate him if he touches her.

Have you guys been marketing? It takes a few thousands followers to boost a few dozen sales to boost the amazon algorithms to really pop off. You are growing your following right?

>>19813309
>You are growing your following right?
No. If The Algorithm pushes my writing down and I die completely unknown, it's their loss. That's the way the modern world is set up, and I refuse to play a part in it. I can't change the fact that puerile social mediaites run the game, but I can choose whether or not I want to play it. I won't.

>>19813309
>>19813334
>Want to write because introvert
>Have to be an extrovert to succeed at it.
We died and are in Hell aren't we?

Critique this /wg/:

>She’s blade-like. Her image cuts through the soupy visual noise, her ringing voice slices through the mess, snippets of whatever conversation, just out of reach, soaked in ethereal magic.
>Her spindly legs fold at the crook as she sits down, planted in some ugly black boots. She leans forward, spindly arms, folded, crook on the table, hands on her head.
>From here, I can only see the outline of her eye, the long curve of her face. The girl with her says something, and she turns, just slightly, and the heavy brown irises of her animal eyes, white-coloured, oak-coloured, appear. Her lips break like the surface of the Sound of Scotland.

>>19811562
This is a real improvement anon, but I think you should think about clauses like
>startled from fantasy
I think they interrupt the rhythm slightly

>>19813430
There's no poetry to it. You're another casualty to the grand, contemporary conflation of eloquence with loquaciousness.

>>19813430
Soupy is a fucky awful word. Never use it.

>>19813430
It reaches for the sublime and comes up with hot air.

Does listening to audiobooks vs reading hinder writing skill? New to writing and iv been listening to books to get an idea on how to improve my writing.

how do i market my sonnet writing skills?

>>19813430
I like some of it: feet "planted in ugly black boots". That's a great line. Simple and evocative. "Her lips break like the surface of the Sound of Scotland" is ballsy. I don't get it, but I respect it. For the most part I did not enjoy it. Not much going on in the plot and poetry department.

>>19813571
I think audiobooks can help improve your writing: hearing sentences spoken gives you a different perspective on the text; and having multiple perspectives is a good thing, I think.

>>19813616
Also recitation. Cut out the middleman and perform the work of recitation yourself. As with anything, you'll learn more by being hands-on.

>>19813658
Reciting is great! But listening to others recite is great, too! I bet that, depending on whether you read to yourself or are read to, different areas of the brain are activated. Feed as many brain mouths as possible! For multi-perspectivity!

>>19813571
I may listen to some books on a reread. Literature often mimics things in spoken word and techniques from oral tradition. Consider that when Orson Welles did a radio drama version of HG Wells War of the Worlds, it was read with such a passion that some listeners who came in late thought an alien invasion had really happened and people were being hunted down by giant tripod war machines.

>>19813372
Tfw extrovert

>>19813571
I don't think it's bad to listen necessarily but it's a different format than what you are interacting with as a writer, so you won't see a lot of the subtle structure/formatting in action on the page. Just do a mix at least.

>>19813309
I'm not even at that stage but I don't even know where I'd begin. The thought of making a twitter account "Author Joe Bob" with zero followers and then just start spamming daily chatter causes me physical pain.

>usually write 1-2k words a day
>get a burst of inspiration and write 4k words in one day
>mentally feel like I pulled something the next day
owwwwww
how do I deal with this? I want to work my way up to writing more but it's impossible if that happens to me.

>>19812758
how tho?

>>19813957
justpaste.it

"The Citadel"

a spiritual successor to "Utopia", set in the modern age. Follows the creation of a network of talented oligarchs who expand their influence by recruiting talented people around the world to create a secret society who's goal is to govern the world to a greater spiritual standard.
Devolves into economic and social manipulation to literally destroy the foundations of capitalistic growth. Ideologies between a ruling class that sits atop masses of poor or a war to rule out those best suited for innovation and survival or some other great filtering process ultimately come to head in what is regarded as 'dignity' or the 'soul' of humanity.

>>19813948
i reach that point at 6k and it's a real thing. exercise and sleep in.
i like using 100k words as a baseline for wordcount goal so when i do 3k i can say, "that's 3% of the book written!"

>>19814001
It didn't copy over the italics, and I'm too lazy to go and redo them just for this. It's seven different stories, tho. I feel the 4th and 7th are the most notable

justpaste (DOT) it (SLASH) 8zb53

>>19814006
shit prose

>>19814067
fuck you im just a midwit.

>>19814067
I think that was a synopsis brother

>>19813309
my shit is unique enough to eventually grow from word of mouth and through book reviews. I'm not a cocksucking fag that will do anything for fame. If not i go down in silence. Either way, i'm not sucking social media cock to get my sales up.

>>19813372
Yes. Writing is the most highly social work you can ever do because 90% of it is basically about being active on social media channels and entertaining people with content other than writing (people don't give a fuck about your writing they want a clown, dance monkey dance!)
Just look at Brandon Sanderson

>>19814039
I read the first story. I didn't like the first half of it. It seemed flat. Like an industrial movie. The description of a procedure. He talks, but what he says is not important. He eats, but what he tastes is not important. He goes... outside. The second half. I liked it better. The change from calm to chaos is brilliant (though the first half was so calm, I almost didn't make it to the chaos).

In the first half, I see a moment that could be worked into something with depth: When Lawson bites into the steak and says it tastes better than ever, every steak he's eaten up to that point, is past, becomes almost visible. You could widen that crack and shed light on his humanity.

The part where he looks the woman in the eye doesn't work yet.

You could end the story two sentences earlier: He falls down. The sheriff congratulates. The crowd starts screaming. End. What the screaming means, death or life, is up to the reader.

"The crowd was so loud it crackled in his ears the same as a roaring campfire." Try less words: The crowd was so loud it crackled in his ears the same as a campfire.

>>19814554
*his past

>>19814244
Have you considered that proper marketing isn't dick sucking at all? But a way to inform your friends, family, and other interested parties of your accomplishment?

>>19814554
This is the first anything I've gotten for any of my writing. It was never to a point I felt it was worth sharing with people before. The issues you have with it are small enough(I'm still taking them seriously, don't misunderstand) that I feel I'm not wasting my time with this. Thanks, Anon.

>>19814624
I was pleasently suprised by your story. I'll read the second one at a later time.
You'll make it (whatever "it" is).

I've been editing the same chapter for three days and I'm still not sure if it's that great. Could there be an even better way to say the same thing? My head hurts. I just want it to be over. Fuck my life.

>>19814698
Put it away, bro. Let it rest for a while.

>>19813309
how do i get a few thousand followers on which platform you speak of?

>>19814705
I kinda have a deadline for it, but guess there's no choice. I'm just gonna fuck it all up trying to force it.

>>19814661
>(whatever "it" is)
I just want to be able to support a family with my writing. Don't need bright lights and flashy names, just a solid and steady source of income.

>>19814985
99% of writers can't even support themselves, never mind a family

>>19815161
this. if you aspire to be financially stable from writing alone you'll be forced to sell out and write tranny erotica about diaper cub orgies. the chad move is to write on the side of an actual real job so you can write what you want with no pressure. and if you make money from writing, it is bonus money, not living expenses. $20k a year is shit income to live on 100%. but a free bonus $20k every year or two on top of your regular income is a major advantage.

stop deluding yourselves. stop meerkating. write high quality literature and contribute to the improvement of mankind, not whoring yourself out to make less than a coffee slave. aiming to live on writing alone will only increase your stress and decrease your writing quality.

>>19815240
>$20k a year is shit income to live on
Jesus fuck, I'd live like a king with 20k per year

>>19815262
Not once you leave high school you won't.

>>19815320
I graduated from high school 20 years ago

>>19815326
Then, and I mean this genuinely, where in the world can you live like a king off $20k a year? That's literally pennies. Graduate student assistant teachers make that much or less and barely scrape by.

How much is too much when it comes to names that are in the native tongue of my characters? Stuff like towns, creatures, communities, etc. I'm trying to keep them simple and pronounceable to an English reader, but I don't know what is too much. How autistic into lore do I go? or should I just use words that have meaning in English like Jaggedtooth pass or farseer acolyte?

>>19815337
I life off like 5k a year. My budget would be quadrupled. How the hell do you burn that much money? A horde of children and a trip around the world every christmas?

>>19815262
...that is literally less than fast food wages dude. either you're a turd worlder or a NEET

>>19815391
My monthly expenses land around $3k. I'm single with no kids or other ties and I live in a state with a lower cost of living than common US metro areas

>>19815240
>full-time job
>writing on the side
I literally do this and most authors do from what I read, because to many writing didnt come first in their life. Even so, some worked in the mean time. William Faulkner was a postmaster, Dan Wells worked at hotel writing fanfics and eventually real novels. Parasite Eve was written by a pharmocologist with a research day job. Ive heard of authors that are also lawyers, musicians, kickboxers, chefs, salesmen, stay at home mothers, all kinds of things. No point in taking a risk and starving unless youre given a great contract.

>>19815531
I live on $1500 a month in a major city, single. As baseline. that doesn't include savings or healthcare or debt repayment etc. and i live impossibly cheap. that is still like $20k a year as a very basic cost of living as a ascetic.
you cannot live on 5k a year. that doesn't even pay rent on the worst roach infested shared room anywhere in the country. he's a live at home NEET who gets free rent from mommy, or in high school similarly with 0 expenses. what a fucking lying faggot.

How do I write realistic characters that are likable? Seems like all positive qualities are romanticized and silly.

>>19815629
To be more specific all my characters seem broody and negative. I'm not a very optimistic person so I don't know how to write upbeat people very well.

>>19815643
Observe positive people and recreate them in your fiction. If your a scrub (like me), emulate cinema.

>>19815629
Advice I once heard was to make a character "grateful" in the reader's eyes to build a connection. You don't have to overdo it, but showing them valuing their colleagues/friends does seem to go a long way.

>>19815549
Could also be he lives in the Philippines or something

>>19815161
99% of writers have day jobs and fall back careers. From what I've read the ones who make a career of it don't give themselves those safety nets. I already screwed myself out of those years ago.

>>19815721
Writing full-time is harder than it sounds. Even unemployed I struggle to write everyday

>>19815698
>but showing them valuing their colleagues/friends does seem to go a long way.
Good advice

>>19815727
>Even unemployed I struggle to write everyday
Then you simply lack discipline. I'm one of the unfortunate(or fortunate, depending how you look at it) who has to write every day or I'll end up beating someone, or worse. That's than hyperbole. I wish it was.

>>19815643
Have characters that react differently to the same thing, if they are major spend time exploring why they are like that. Try giving people different backgrounds: class, heritage and how he sees himself and his status or expectations. Explore a character's competence, who he acts nice to (or who likes him and why) and how much initiative he takes. Try a variety of these but dont make it all perfect or youve made a Mary Sue. For example, try a character who is incompetent but has initiative and nice to his horse. Or a character who is great at deciphering maps, always ready to count the money, but tends to ignore people and no one really trusts him. This is all kinda basic approach. What really makes a good character is helping the reader understand what that character yearns for and show how it shapes his life.

>>19815698
>Advice I once heard was to make a character "grateful" in the reader's eyes to build a connection. You don't have to overdo it, but showing them valuing their colleagues/friends does seem to go a long way.
Based advice

>tfw no reviews on my royal road chapter 1

Would this be the right thread/board of I wanted to ask a question about starting a diary?
If not, could someone point me to where it might be appropriate?

>>19816185
Shoot

>>19816167
How many chapters have you posted?

Chapter 67 released.
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/40361/erased
>>19815727
>Even unemployed I struggle to write everyday
I know this may sound counterintuitive, but that's because you're not writing enough. When you write a bunch you get really invested in your story. Cut out other distractions, cut out other hobbies, cut out other wastes of time and write. Eat sleep and breathe your story and you'll very easily write every day. But to start off you'll have to force yourself before it becomes second nature.

>>19816260
2

chapter 1 got like 68 and chapter 2 got 11 views

>>19816276
No fucking shit you haven't gotten reviews then.

Don't expect engagement until you're at like, tens of thousands of views

>>19816250
I'm already 20. But recently I've been thinking about starting a diary.
I just wanted some suggestions for a software I can use. Just something I can easily organize and maybe also put some images.
I tried writing on paper and it's ok. But I've been having trouble making a habit and typing into a computer I don't need to worry about pages and having to buy materials and etc. I do really like the authenticity of pen and paper though. Will miss it a lot

>>19816334
>worry about buying material
Literally just get any notebook you want. Comp books are like, 50 cents a pop. Trust me, as someone who's been journaling for most of my life(on and off, almost every day for the last 4 years), you can't beat pen and paper. It helps with the thoughtfulness and mental stuff, which is part of why you should do it in the first place.

I've tried the digital stuff too, but it's actually harder to make it a habit. Just set aside half an hour or so a day either in the morning or before bed or during lunch to sit and journal. It's not hard, just takes a little effort and a little discipline. You're 20, which is the perfect age to start building those skills.

>>19816334
I use evernote.

I just finished my third draft. Only one more hopefully remains - a final readthrough to correct any small errors. Then it's time to start querying and working on getting published.

I honestly wish I could share it here for feedback but fuck open association with this website. It would probably kill my career before it even has a chance to start.

>>19816460
> It would probably kill my career before it even has a chance to start.
Probably not true, but I wouldn't post it here either.

>>19816365
>you can't beat pen and paper
Yeah, I know you're probably right anon. It's been a long time since I've actually had to even write anything, so my hands hurt before finishing a single page which makes me want to give up halfway through. But I'm sure in the future I would prefer to actually have a physical recording of my thoughts.
Thanks for the input!

>>19816376
This looks like exactly what I've wanted! I had an idea about having a separate diary to write about games I'm currently playing and I might actually end up doing so with this and keep a physical for general thoughts. Thanks as well anon!

>>19816495
Cheers!

>>19816460
similar. want to share but cannot. i'm 3/4 done with my 2-volume story. then needs an edit, a rest, and another edit, then query time. should be ready to query by june-august. i feel really good about it.

>>19815629
>seems like all positive qualities are romanticized and silly
I don't think that's true. The number one thing you can do to make your character likeable? Simple human kindness. Have them show real sympathy when a friend's loved one dies. Give them basic chivalric tendencies - they hold the door, they say please and thank you. Allow them to be empathetic rather than uncaring.
If you are writing a character who is heroic, their flaws shouldn't outweigh their positive qualities, since they are fundamentally good people.
My protagonist is vain. He thinks a bit too highly of himself. He's lazy and has trouble motivating himself, he gets tongue-tied around strangers and pretty girls, he can be sarcastic for no real reason, he's a bit of a wimp and he's so easily distracted that at his job as a library page, he spends more time reading the books that he's supposed to be putting away.
These are all common, relatable human flaws, nothing that can't be forgiven in any person.
And on the contrasting side, he's kind and gentle, he would do anything for his friends, he's empathetic and puts others above himself, and above all else he wants to do good.
simple kindness and gentleness goes a long way in making a likeable hero. If you want to keep going with the broody and negative hero, you just have to approach it a little differently, and accept that most people will see that as a negative trait and probably a little annoying.

>>19816300
then how do you get views

while editing my genre novel, i realized that the common theme among hyper-popular (franchise-worthy) fantasy, scifi, etc. settings is convenience. important characters can do anything banal effortlessly, with a wave of the hand. our sugar-addicted society loves to see this. the journey is always about working to master the things that afford them convenience and defeat people who've attained powers in "wrong" ways. also you have to have a good story, but please feel free to also make a point of showing off convenience and make a lot of money.

You guys there’s an F. Gardner megathread on /pol/ right now. Looks like /pol/ found out about what he talks about in his books.

>>19817067
https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/358291831#top

Lmao holy fucking shit

>join a barbershop quartet
>now I just want to write stories about barbers
Fuck off I have a book to write

>>19817092
Barber fiction could be the next big thing

>>19817080

>>19817097
That could be a comfy read. A story about four barbers having adventures, magical or surreal or realistic. But in the current climate of high emotion, fast pace and quick grabs, it probably won't be much of a winner with readers.

>Bust out 8 chapters in a month.
>Go blank for a whole week.
>Start and finish chapter 9 in one night in a frenetic haze, satisfied with it.
>Working on chapter 10 and keep distracting myself every time I introduce a new character
god fucking dammit

>>19817020
no secret. no mystery. release more chapters

>>19817154
aim more for soft hills and valleys, not peaks and cliffs. Slow and consistent is better than frantic back and forth, Anon.

Do you guys find that you usually suddenly imagine a cool event, and then you have to work to invent characters to fit into that? Or do you first think of a good character, and then you have to work out the events that will happen to them?

>>19817092
>>19817097
>>19817150
Sounds something like the Pickwick Papers.

>>19817275
Both

>>19817080
>F Gardner has finally made it

Good for him.

I wrote some today after a hiatus. Not much but it was enough, gotta keep this up every day now.
>compared the religious ecstasy of one character to another ecstatic experience, Sufi whirling, when her god teachers her to dance
>develop more on the guilt theme, peppering statements through a few chapters
>other character seething about something his wife did and thinking about how much of a bitch she is before calming down: "Little creature couldn't do a thing without affirmation then she goes and shows her tail as if she knows better, the bitch."

>>19817080
Holy based

>>19817275
I usually think about characters first, what the theme of writing I want the story to be about, and then I perceive their struggles in relation to those themes - i.e. right now I'm writing a very jaded older guy partnered up with an idealistic younger woman who's very reminiscent of his earlier years, so he's especially harsh on her to criticize himself and justify his own development. She's not having any of it and manages to point out what he lost in becoming a jaded old man, and that's gunna culminate in them beating the shit out of eachother down the line.

>>19817080
Tips on getting F Gardner tier results for my book? Having my book become memed like Call of the Crocodile would be epic.

>wrote for about 45 minutes right before bed
>720ish words, nothing special
>caught myself trying to tell/describe things twice, actively edited it out
>avoiding tell in conversation too, trying to imply what's necessary without being obtuse
>got a domain activated for my website
Yep, it was a good hour for work.

What niche topics would you like to see in philosophy books?

>>19817805
Have you read CotC? It’s nuts. It has a jarring twist that comes out of nowhere. If you do stuff like that people will talk.

>>19817067
All gardner threads get like that. Were you here for the F Gardner edition of the WWOYM thread? It was enormous and lasted all week.

>>19811924
But if you could rote a whole post on his first line, wouldn't that be extremely drawn out?

>>19817067
>>19817080
>>19817133
>>19817287
>>19817642
>>19817821
I’m guessing at least half of these posts are just F Gardner promoting/samefagging

I just got a job, 9 hours technically speaking, so I have 9 hours where I'm not free, now, the schedule is a bit odd so I have 5 hours of free time once my shift is over until 0000, I clock in at 0900, what I want to ask is, I need more free time for my pursuits, as a 21 year old, how much should I sleep without WITHOUT damaging my brain as in decreasing cognitive damage and accelerating brain aging?
6 hours or the 8 hours?
I need more time to improve my craft and then quit

>>19817814
Value. Not in the sense of "these are the values I live my life by" but that nebulous territory between significance, utility, and finances.
How do people perceive value? Is that different from motivation? Is money a good gauge or measure of value? Or is time? If neither, why not?
Is there a objective measure of value - I'm not talking about financial value, I mean the thing that price is a proxy of. Or will value always be a personal estimation made within the constrictions and circumstances that a decision is made?

>>19807820
Why don't more people shill their writing here? I'm surprised at how few writing samples and wattpad links there are.

>>19818035
What about the 100+ posts in the /pol/ thread

>>19818069
F Gardner is an old meme. It’s not surprising at all that they would know about his books.

>>19818059
I and a few others post our Royalroad links. There's actually now a considerable amount of links in the author's pastebin.

>>19817080
Based thread

>>19818049
As an oldfag (40 is apparently ‘old’ here), your 20s are the best time to get deeply autistic about your interests. Go at it as hard as you can, as long as you can…b/c work and family and life will suck you dry of free time in a few years, so this is your chance to gain the skills and interests you’ll be riding out for decades to come.

Idk what you’re talking about brain damage/brain aging…do you really need to ask /lit/ how ling to sleep? If you’re feeling too tired in the day, maybe sleep more. If you’re feeling like a lazy fuck, sleep less. Idk, i’m up with a crying 3 month old now…sleep is for the weak.

>>19818101
I mean, you need to have good sleep not to suffer from cognitive decay, as in less neuroplasticity in the long term, I was thinking 7 hours, which is what I do, or 6 but I don't know, I have to learn a lot so decreasing my neuroplasticity is not an option

>>19818128
You’re 21, what the fuck are you talking about.
As long as you limit your poison intake (booze, soda, fast food), do a moderate amount of exercise (even just a walk/run), and don’t waste too much time doomscrolling/procrastinating, you’ll be fine.

>>19818160
I've done my fair share of that just trying to fix it now, thanks and back to writing

>>19818059
I'm not publishing anything until mine is done. Want to try tradpub just to see if I can. If not, It'll go up on royal road or i'll self-publish on amazon.

>>19818160
People aren't really humans until 27 or so, just let him be. You're talking to a stranger half your age, you fucking boomer. The two of you have no meaningful level to connect and dialogue on.

>>19818175
don't selfpub
just shelve it if you can't get an agent and come back to it after you know how to make a book agents will buy
no reason to waste a draft

>>19818175
Same. Call of the Crocodile has proven to me that self pub works. So I might do that.

>>19818185
>come back to it after you know how to make a book agents will buy
>a book agents will buy
a lot of topics are simply unacceptable and the only route is self publishing

>>19818202
I don't think publishers will look at a Middle Grade/Young Adult adventure novel about airships and say "THIS IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE" And pinch their noses while holding the manuscript at arms length to dispose of.
But then again, they are publishers. I guess you can never be sure.

>>19818177
what?

>>19818215
>adventure novel about airships
so the novel is about airships or it features them? how diverse is your cast? do you have all colors of the rainbow plus cripples plus fags? do you have any wrongthink, or even little hints of wrongthink?

>>19817080
Based

>>19818263
>so the novel is about airships or it features them
features them. It's a coming-of-age story with romance and adventure set in an age of airships.
>how diverse is your cast? do you have all colors of the rainbow plus cripples plus fags?
yes, yes and yes
My point was that if publishers don't like my novel, it won't be because of the topic or setting.

>>19818271
Romance is in YA, not MG

>>19818289
I was about to argue, but reading my manuscript, yeah, this is definitely fully in the YA category rather than straddling the line like I intended.

Shakespeare wrote nearly 1,000,000 words. I can't even write 60,000 novels...

>>19817080
Holy....I leave /lit/ for one week and Call of the Crocodile is now a /pol/ meme?

>>19818473
To be fair, I don't think any writer has ever written 60 thousand novels by themselves.

>>19818488

>>19818478
Reading the thread they call out shilling and shit on it for being badly written.

>>19818488
Meant to say 60,000-word novels. Brain did a brainfart. But yeah, I think if someone wrote 60,000 haikus, they'd beat brother speare, but that's a lot.

>>19818059
my writing still feels so amateurish compare to everyone's writing here so I don't wanna shill what others might think is garbage

>>19818478
Call of the Crocodile has been a /lit/ meme for years

>>19807820
How would you build toward conflicts in nonsuspenseful cozy story? I’m having my hot chocolate sipping sisters leisurely gazing through the window forever. Must conflict always be threatening? Is it merely enough to elicit an emotion in the main character? Having the other tell a funny line. MC laughs. Then they sigh and turn to face each other and hold hands. They smile and a behind the window, a butterfly swirls and jumps.

>>19817080
So....this is the true power of F. Gardner......woah

>>19819125
I guess conflict is build the same way in all stories. It's just a matter of intensity.

Ahh, I got my first rejection this year. It was the same old bot reply but at least the message mentioned my book's title, so it was worth waiting four months for it.
Life is a fuck.

>>19819125
Cute misunderstandings are your friend. Also have things go wrong in a ordinary way. like, the power goes out during a snowstorm and the mc and the sisters decide to stick close to each other under a blanket on the couch that's barely big enough for them to fit comfortably. One of the sisters is wearing a headlamp and reading a romance novel; Occassionally the mc looks over and sees how raunchy it is.
Sometimes one of their extremeties gets cold and another sibling warms the extremety by rubbing it. As it gets colder they coil their limbs into the blanket, shoving parts into other parts. when one of them decides to get up to get more hot cocoa, they discover that the three of them are tied into a knot. In the process of untying themselves more parts are shoved in more parts, followed by apologies.

>>19819324
>>19819125
Just to clear something up, I thought the mc and the sisters were three seperate characters. None the less, the couch situation still works with two people

>>19807820
How do you write with sincerity?

>>19819359
Ignore any concerns you may have with how your work will be recieved by anyone but yourself or those closest to you

>>19819359
You tell the reader upfront that you're insincere.

>>19818049
I know I'm late to the conversation, but you should aim for around 7 minimum for sleep. I go for 8 (I'm in bed at 2200 and my alarm is at 0630) and even then I'm just getting "Good" Fitbit sleep scores. On the weekends I can peg 9 hours easily. Since sleep is fundamental to gains in body and mind, I'd say go for whatever you can with the knowledge of your own sleep cycle. Knowing how long to sleep as well as when you usually wake up at night can help ensure you get deep, restful sleep and don't have to wake up in the middle of a whole cycle or even a REM cycle.

>>19818049
I'm on 6 hours of sleep. Been doing it since August. I got used to it. I also drink 7 litres of tea daily.

>>19819125
>>19819358
>>19819324
I also mentally inserted a comma between "hot" and "chocolate" and misinterpreted the tone of your story

>>19816605
>>19816460
So where do you guys get
feedback from? I'm earlier in the process and would like some criticism to help me hone my skills as I go.

>>19819324
Really like this advice, to add my own spin to it I'd just say the stakes (death vs a tea stain on grandma's carpet) are a big part of it. Read some of the Jeeves short stories from Whodehouse for prime comfy examples, usually the stakes are around impressing a girl with a grumpy uncle or casual gambling over the length of a rural priests sermon.

>>19818049
I work 8-5 and over 30. I try at least 7 but sometimes 5 or 6 hours on rare occasion. Besides sleep, start making the most of your time between other tasks and do things in parallel. Make your morning productive, I think it's the perfect time to read and maybe clean the house a bit. If you prioritize reading and writing the other stuff will get done as needed.

I’m going to try for some chivalric romance from the style of 13-14th century romances. What do you think the market for romances that aren’t pure smut, but show a genuine episodic romance?

>>19819359
I try to use less low wit (word play, sarcasm, irony). A little bit is fine but hammering sarcasm as the thrust of your story comes off like an angry writer imo. Give POV time to antagonists and opposing views, it builds sympathy and shows you are sincerely thinking about each character and just a self insert who gets vindicated with everything. I try my hardest not to clearly vindicate any character but add frustrating ironies that shake each characters' resolve.

>>19819635
I've talked to a few librarians about this exact thing. They've all told me that Amish Romance is their most popular checked-out genre by far solely because it doesn't have the smuttiness of other contemporary novels.

>>19819635
Mary Robinette Kowal made a careeer and won a couple Hugo awards aping Jane Austen so I don't see why you couldn't write a romance that isnt smutty.

>>19819502
>I also drink 7 litres of tea daily.
Your kidneys are going to go kaput

>>19818049
>how much should I sleep without WITHOUT

However much you sleep now, I think it's not enough

>>19815549
>that doesn't even pay rent
I said I'm not in high school. I own my apartment.
>what a fucking lying faggot.
Why does me living modestly make you seethe this hard?

>>19818473
>Shakespeare wrote nearly 1,000,000 words.
Are you kidding me, that's all? I've almost surpassed Shakespeare with one series.

>>19819313
>imagine thinking anyone can ever get published who isn't already famous, well-connected in the publishing world or a propagandist
lmfao

>>19819734
It's extraordinarily easy to get published if you aren't writing fantasy or sci-fi

>>19819737

>>19819748
>futurama meme
Ever thpught that maybe you and your work just aren't very appealing?

>>19817806
>caught myself trying to tell/describe things twice, actively edited it out
why do we do this
>>19818049
tfw
>just got job
>had been doing 3k words a day
>now down to 1k
feels bad man
>>19818473
1M words is roughly 10 finished novels. impressive but not unattainable given he didnt have to wageslave a dayjob.

>>19819359
Yes.
>>19819502
I used to sleep 10 hours a day. now i'm down to 7, if that, since i often get insomnia. actually feel better now, smarter, better health, more energy, better mood.
i'm only allowed 2 cups of coffee a day but the rest of the day is tea.
>>19819635
romance meant something different back then, fren.
>>19819737
hopefully but i wouldnt say 'easy'. but /sffg/ toddlers have a flooded market since there is no bar for entry. even a 10 year old could write a fantasy novel.

>>19820045
I think we edit because cant let go of tge notion that we'll be judged on the first draft so we keep stopping. Repetition can be annoying when its not intentional, it can come off as belittling to the reader. Some repetition cam be nice when presented correctly, just enough to reveal character or emphasize like in As I Lay Dying:
>I will turn up the next row but if the sack is full, I cannot help it. It will be that I had to do it all the time and I cannot help it. And we picked on toward the secret shade and our eyes would drown together touching on his hands and my hands and I didn't say anything. I said "What are you doing?" and he said "I am picking into your sack." And so it was full when we came to the end of the row and I could not help it.

>>19820093
that's one thought expounded in one paragraph. repetition is more like stating the same thing in 5 different places.
i hate it. if i repeat myself twice anywhere in the book it drives me nuts. i have to sniff them all out. say something once and only once.

>>19819722
And how many individual words did you use? I hope you didn't repeat yourself too much. Did you invent any words?

>>19820146
Only wanting to use a specific turn of phrase once I can see, but the reality is the reader benefits from a certain amount of repetition as far as understanding. You, as the writer, know the plot and characters back and forth and up and down, but the reader doesn't have your insight. I don't mean you need to hit the reader over the head over and over, but a bit of repetition is a good thing and will make for a better reading experience overall.

>>19820365
i disagree with your opinion.
>>19820266
is there any convenient tool to get unique wordcount? sans made up words like names/places.

>>19820146
Right, but the "I could/can not x" comes up again and again between Vardaman and Dewey Dell both. So while the scenes changes they get some thematic emotions of helpless fury.

>>19820427
I use LaTeX and they count your shit in "Analyse Text" with a thing on the side to show unique words and counts. Depends what editor you use but I think texstudio does a good job.
>>19807820
Absolutely sick of word, what alternatives do you have, /wg/?

>>19819635
>what do you think the market is for romances that aren’t pure smut
Almost exclusively YA, I would imagine

>>19820473
>LaTeX
when you submit to agents/editors what about the formatting? do agents want to accept stuff produced in latex or does it drive the editors to suicide?

>>19820581
>when you submit to agents/editors what about the formatting? do agents want to accept stuff produced in latex or does it drive the editors to suicide?
The formatting is done automatically when you write
\documentclass{book}

\begin{document}
... <text goes here>
\end{document}

and then go "tools -> commands -> PDFLaTeX" which puts it in whatever size/font you set it as and automatically does the margins, indents, etc. It even has specific commands for titles, including date and author name, and the chapters appear in the top right corner header when you put it in once. The formatting is fairly easy, even easier than Microsoft Word to me, which I find finicky.
>do agents want to accept stuff produced in latex or does it drive the editors to suicide?
I haven't sent a .tex file, but agents and editors should evolve because .doc and .docx are fucking shit and not cross-device and cross-platform, and I have actually LOST my original formatting in Word to the point I got a rejection from my usual publisher because it looked like my shit was all over the place.

>>19820045
One line I specifically caught was
>[description of person and robes], made for an intimidating monarch.
And no sooner had I finished the sentence than I realized it should read implicitly that he is an intimidating figure, or if he isn't, then the reader will substitute their own meaning for me. Either way I concluded it was a bad clause and deleted it.

>>19820624
Well, I've seen requests that they specifically want docx files only. I use libreoffice because MS word is a crashy hunk of shit with large files, but Librewriter can export in docx. i think most agents are so retarded they would assume a tex file is a virus.
it's hilarious actually, american agents are obsessed with the notion that someone will mail them a "virus" so they cant open attachments, whereas british agents have no such qualm and request attachments instead to preserve formatting. american agents want you to copy paste it into the email so everything is fucked up and YOU get blamed for it beign fucked up. just boomer shit. america is fucking cancer.

i know it's caused me delays when formatting gets inexplicably fucked up in libreoffice. but i also use multiple text colors when writing to denote if something was first draft, revision, imported notes, my notes, etc. and it doesnt seem like latex supports that. its a great idea but not quite there for literary work. if its going to only shit out a format that agents/publishers wont accept what is the point

The publisher said I need to give them $6500 for the various deliverables once I sign the agreement. Am I getting fleeced? They called themselves a hybrid publisher.

>>19820783
yeah i dont know anything about publishing but i can smell a scam from miles away. you want me to tell you if this is one?

>>19820783
>$6500
Listen, I can do it much cheaper than that. Just send me a check for $500. The name of my company is Cash.

>>19820783
You're getting fleeced.

>>19820783
Hybrid as in publisher AND scammer

>>19820783
>retard has 6500 to throw in the trash
how did you get that much? you deserve a fleecing. google 'writer beware' and ask.
i feel less bad about my shitty stock purchases now. thanks anon. i've never lost 6500 in one deal. or even cumulative.

>>19820783
Never pay a publisher anything

>>19820795
>>19820811
>>19820824
>>19820832
>>19820853
>>19820889
The contract says I get 100% royalties and sole copyright control, though.

>>19820908
What the shit? That doesn't even.... Is it a vanity press?

>>19820930
It can't be because they actually reject titles. I was also directed to them specifically, as in given their names and numbers, by a 100% legit publisher.

>>19820945
search them on writer beware dude. we cant help you to any further extent

>>19820908
>100% royalties
wouldn't that mean the publisher makes no money other than the $6500 up front?

>>19820985
Okay, I can't find them on Writer Beware. Should I email beware@sfwa.org the contract I was given along with all the names involved? I haven't signed anything, though the head of the publishing company seems to have recommendations from actual publishers, and I was directed to them by one such publisher.

>>19821035
you're stepping into unknown territory. a proper explorer yeah? pay the money then report the results lol

>>19821047
Yes, bankrupt yourself for our entertainment and the attainment of knowledge.

You can print your own book and buy yourself many copies of said book for that price.

>>19821047
Okay, I contacted Writer Beware and passed them the "contract". Worst case scenario for me, I outed a scam and have to keep searching for a publisher.

>>19820908
If you go to you local kinko's and print it out you'll also get 100% royalties and sole copyright control. Don't be a dummy. Dummy.

>>19821247
I guess you did the right thing

>>19820783
>>19820945
They probably reject shit that isn't formatted in a way that they can slap into their printing program, or that is too many or too few words, etc. You probably got recommended to them because the real publishers don't think your book is really publishable, or even salvageable. Sorry. If you ever have to pay a publisher, it's not necessarily a scam, but it's not something that is going to put your book on shelves, either. They'll take your money, give you a round of books to try to sell yourself to make your money back, and that'll be it.

yay or nay on writers revisiting topics and ideas from different perspectives?

for example
multiple books where the character's curiosity gets them in trouble(different character each book) or a "romance" involving a female serial killer(I've got the obligatory "cop chasing is the same as the serial killer instincts" and shit, but also a rando catches her in the act and wants to join in, and another which kidnaps a writer who writes serial killers thinking he'll understand and accept her crazy)

>>19820908
lol that's not a publisher, that's a printer

>>19820581
no they're not going to accept latex. they want docx. you have to have a workflow for export. i write in vim and then convert. kind of a pain in the ass but worth it to be able to work in pure text in vim

>>19819502
that much tea is not good for you. 1 or 2 liters should be all you need. if you think you need caffeine you have to reset your sensitivity.

or take caffeine pills. tea is great but too much of a good thing will cause you problems.

>>19819686
>>19821899
I'll restrain myself from now on. Thanks for looking out for me, fellas.

I want to write a fantasy novel but I've never written before
It's going to be extremely derivative of The Hobbit, do you think Gandalf is necessary?
I need him for the plot to start but I don't really want much of a plot

>>19822023
How can you write a novel that is based on the Hobbit but has no real plot? The Hobbit has a lot of plot, doesn't it?

>>19822023
Isn't Gandalf the only reason Bilbo goes on the adventure?

>>19822062
well, there's no wizard and no ring pretty much its Bilbo having lunches and meals with his pals in the Shire, getting drunk and going to birthday parties. the big sort of event that sets the whole book in motion is a death and everyone starts fighting over the inheritance.

>>19822105
That sounds kinda fun but why does it have to be derivative of the Hobbit? If there's no wizard and no ring, there's no quest to go on to slay a dragon. This sounds more like a Hobbit fanfiction (I don't use it as a pejorative) than a derivative work.

>>19822105
Sounds very comfy. I fear, though, that, with nothing else going on, stumbling from party to party could get boresome quite quickly. I wish you best of luck, however.

>>19822023
>i want to write a novel in the most saturated and unwanted genre
>it's going to be derivative of (biggest title) in that genre
>i've never written before
>i dont want to write a plot
>should i steal this character?

just dont bother

How do I write likeable characters

>>19822446
Think about the people you like.
Now think about why you like them, even if it's the assumptions you've made about them.

>>19822446
see these
>>19815698
>>19816803

>>19822462
But I don't like any people, and all the fictional characters I like are all because of obvious "save the cat" tier stuff

>>19822465
Thanks

>>19822446
>>19815629

>>19822456
>>19822471
What's going on buddeh

>>19822502
Formatting issues.

>>19822461
new bread
new baker is apparently incompetent to link forward so i'll help him out