/lit/ - Literature

first for zyzz

Christ is Lord.

>>19810007
are there any parts of the bible or christian lit in general that will teach you how to be remorseful for the bad things you do?

Seeing as to how the Prots weren't able to hold their ground against the Caths in the last thread could we get some Cath v Ortho debates ITT?

>>19810133
Why not just start a new thread for denominational debates and keep this thread Bible focused?
The other threads with debates went down the drain very quickly.

>>19810133
>can we have an even worse slapfight please

>>19810138
Out of respect for the board? There's no need to flood /lit/ with our autism. This general hasn't been that active anyway.

>>19810133
2 Timothy 2:14
>Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

>>19810147
I'm sure everyone will be very sad to learn that another "guenon shankara retroactively refuted crypto buddhism" thread got bumped off the catalog.

>>19810150
But how else are we supposed to figure out which church is the right one

>>19810167
Start by going to different churches and speaking with their priests face to face and in person. Attend a couple services. Speak with the members of the parish/congregation and see how they integrate their faith into their lives.
Don't base a decision like this on the ramblings of autists on 4chan or you'll come away thinking that every Catholic is a smarmy, holier-than-thou zoomer tradcath, every Orthodox Christian is a LARPer obsessed with Seraphim Rose, le aesthetics, and being based and repilled, and every Protestant is a schizophrenic obsessed with telling other people they're going to Hell.
There are plenty of people like you who are looking for God and the truth about Him, and there are plenty of humble, holy people who will help you on your way. Almost none of these people can be found here.

>>19810133
>one Satanic Babylonian walking meme faggot fires shots at another Satanic Babylonian walking meme faggot
Either way you're still a Satanic Babylonian walking meme faggot, there is just no winning there.

>>19810133
>attacks Prots
>posts a tweet from a Prot
What did he mean by this?

>>19810519
That's an Orth taking a swipe at a Cath.

>>19810007
Why are Allen 63 longprimer kjv Bibles $700 on eBay? Do they only make limited quantities or something?

>>19810709
>Do they only make limited quantities or something?
It's a Funko Bible, so probably. Just get an Allan 62 longprimer instead or a CBP Bible.

>>19810133
OK, Prot here. I just watched part of the video that Jay Dyer was linking to there, and the text message from the Catholic priest to the Pints w/ Aquinas guy is actually very thought provoking, incredible material, very well worth the while for any Christian to hear and ponder.

>>19810754
The 63 long primer is the very best Bible that Allen makes. It’s essentially the same as the 62, just with goatskin instead of the less durable calfskin

>>19810764
I agree

>>19810791
I think there are certain essences to what he said that are generally valuable entirely outside of the Orth/Cath bubble, too. I will never accept the "Mary" worship either way (an actual required essential dogma in Catholicism) and there are other deeply troubling aspects, but I don't know that I'll ever cease wondering if...perhaps...

Anyway, pretty deeply hard hitting stuff the fellow said.

>>19810667
>Dyer
>an Orth
lol

>>19810790
You can buy a 62 and have it rebound in goatskin for a combined cheaper price than $700. Not saying you should, but I'm just putting things into perspective.

>>19810868
Well, self proclaimed at least, but yes. I'm inclined to go much farther than calling only that into question, but I feel it to be quite the serious danger and am well aware that only God can actually know these things.

>>19810133
Ortholarpers can't even take a shit without seething about Catholics lmao

What do we think of Paul saying women should be silent in church in 1 Corinthians? Is it a later insertion? Is he actually quoting an established view to rebuke it? Or is he just kind of a dick?

>>19811148

Women love gossiping and being loud and childish if they think they can get away with it

>>19811148
Every time I watch a woman YTer speaking about Christia...I mean, just about anything, I see God's wisdom in breathing that through Paul.

im looking to buy the most expensive highest quality bible I can, any suggestions?

>>19811275
Get a Church Bible Publishers KJB printed and hand bound in the USA for a little over $50 then use the extra to feed the hungry etc.

>>19811290
Cope.

>>19811275
Allan or Schuyler, I guess. That or get one of those 200-year-old Douay Rheims that are the size of a table and have it refurbished. Otherwise, just get a nice textblock and have a reminder give you whatever you want.

So the KJV sucks and I shouldnt waste my time with it for my first bible read, right?

>>19811303
>Cope, Cope, Cope
Perhaps that will be what Christ says when he boots (You) down the slide to Hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvB6Ld1g8vA

>>19811333
Yeah use a literal bible translation instead.

>>19811353
which one?

>>19811358
ASV

>>19811358
ESV or NASB

>>19811333
>listened to Satan's lies

>>19811366
>>19811375
god fucking dammit! Which!

>>19811345
Take your meds

>>19811358
Orthodox Study Bible or Douay Rheims

>>19811391
This one.

God's name is YHWH

>>19811400
Ok, this one looks cool, thanks.

>>19811436
Here it is.
https://www.christianbook.com/nasb-size-bible-bonded-leather-black/9780899579443/pd/579443

>>19811549
much obliged. I wonder what this will awaken in me.

>>19810058
life

>>19811590
With a translation that literal, used by as hardcore of Biblical scholars, archeologists, textual analysts, etc., hopefully it'll turn you into an academic overnight. I mean, there's gotta be a reason why all the Bible-defending guys with "Dr." before their names use that specific edition.

>>19810058
cant be taught

>>19811148
>What do we think of Paul saying women should be silent in church in 1 Corinthians?
we should think it's based

>Is he actually quoting an established view to rebuke it? Or is he just kind of a dick?
it agrees with Judaism therefore it is correct

>>19811275
>the most expensive highest quality bible I can, any suggestions?
here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Quinta
https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-Testament-Greek-english-Dictionary/dp/3438051605/

>b-but I don't know Biblical Hebrew and Greek
Learn it pleb
https://freehebrew.hismagnificence.com
https://freegreek.hismagnificence.com

>>19811333
>>19811353
>>19811366
>>19811375
>>19811399
>>19811400
>>19811401
>>19811436
>>19811653
Just read the LXX and Greek New Testament lol (Byzantine Majority Text, of course)

>>19811691
nah, i already bought the one in the link, you are not a good representative.

I'm ill so today when I can bear it, I'm gonna start on Exodus. I've been told there's less kino than Genesis.

>>19811728
The first portion of Exodus is extreme kino--all the stuff you'd see depicted in The Ten Commandments or The Prince of Egypt. It's only after Moses leads the people out that it slows down and you just start to hate the Jews complaining to Moses and God afterward.

>>19810007
watch this if you guys are not 100% sure of going to heaven:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpOv_kvk4M8&ab_channel=BaptistBiblePreaching

>>19811761
>Jews complaining
hilarious

>>19810007
also, here is a must watch sermon for people who are doubting their salvation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qe2iQE2ImQ&t=433s&ab_channel=Matthew

>>19811774
>"Pastor"
lol

>>19811769
James 2:14
I wish it were that simple too anon, I really do but it's not. Purgatory or Gehenna/Hell not being permanent has more basis on scripture than what Anderson is preaching.

>>19811769
>>19811774
no u

>>19811148
Read the end of last thread to see what we think if Paul's Christian revisionism/corruption.

>>19811769
>a pastor who married a nigger to a white woman
haha no

>>19811333
>"""V"""
It's not a "version", it's *the* Holy Bible. Anything else is a "bible" at best.

>>19810007
My gut's urging me to get this NT, but then my brain's wondering how different it could really be from any other translation of the NT.
>>19810133
Lemme guess: Dyer completely misinterpreted that title for his own aims and the actual video is not a denominational thing and is more about keeping Christians Christian? Judging by >>19810764, I feel my hunch is in the right direction.

>>19811900
WHAT DOES THE V STAND FOR THEN?

>>19811940
Nah, he didn't misinterpret it.
https://youtu.be/6u2RlSc3_SM?t=430

>>19811940
I'm the one you quoted in the "judging by" and no, it's essentially the Pints guy got disgusted with the RCC apparently after the latest news regarding Ratinger (not sure spelling, not looking it up) participating in pedo cover ups, and texted a "Father" about it. He also mentioned wishing that "Orthodoxy™" were true so he could just leave the RCC and go to that. The priest gave a response that hits pretty seriously deep, but it's in defense of staying with the RCC despite all of that. I myself, per my response (quoted) found a lot of worth in the considerations regardless, but in some ways including the Cath/Orth aspects. I do not in any way assume that anyone else would get what I did out of it, but what the man said was worth any Christian reading and pondering, IMO.

based

qrd

>>19812058
>>19812076
gay

>>19812058
>brown hands
eeww

>>19812082
>KJB and the NRSV are both gay
Based?

>>19812096
No, that vanity cover with slogans rather than Holy Bible is gay. The NRSV being gay just automatically goes without saying and the update made it even worse.

>>19811979
>the latest news regarding Ratinger
The news was literally some other cleric being informed about a priest being a pedo and then recommending that he be psyciatrically evaluated it, and then Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) not really fully knowing the situation but trusting the other cleric's judgment instead of going on a weird ultra-specific pedo witchhunt decades before the extent of the abuse was made public.

I genuinely can't imagine that a Catholic podcaster would understand all of the abuse narratives beforehand and then want to finally leave the Church over THAT.

>>19812228
Nice cover Kool-Aid but whatever I read said that Rats claimed he wasn't even at the meeting or whatever about it yet the recorded minutes said otherwise, so whatever spin cover is getting told is just that.

>>19812228
>leave the "Church™" over THAT
I will grant that the "Mary" worship alone is enough.

Alligator Bible.

>>19812252
>Rats claimed he wasn't even at the meeting
Not claimed he was at, claimed he didn't REMEMBER being at. Big difference, especially for a man older than dirt who has had multiple completely different meetings every week for the majority of his life.

>>19812273
So remember or not he was there and didn't boot a child raping fag.

What's your opinion about Bibles in spanish and which one would you recommend to someone, /lit/ ?

>>19811275
Allen longprimer

Pope Francis's revision of the Catechism:

>2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.
>Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. ...
>Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

As far as I can tell, he is claiming that we understand human dignity better than all the saints of the past and thus can make a better moral prescription than they would. This logic can be used to change anything. We understand the dignity of women and homosexuals better than Apostles so we rule that women can be ordained and gays can get married. The groundwork is laid for all of this.

>>19811769
this man is stupid af
https://youtu.be/F67yTH8OD2U

>>19812929
According to Dale B. Martin (lecturer at Yale), there were female priests in the churches Paul founded in Asia Minor. You could attribute this to pagan influences, but it was a thing once upon a time.

>>19813059
It doesn't matter what the opinion of some historian is. I'm talking about the Catholic's Church's official doctrine on the matter. The death penalty is simply a good point of comparison because it shows things can be changed with a wave of the hand.

Catholic Answers, 2015
>The death penalty has always been, and always will be, upheld as a legitimate and potentially just punishment in Catholic Tradition as well as in Scripture. This teaching cannot change.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-church-and-capital-punishment

Pope Francis, 2020
>Today we state clearly that “the death penalty is inadmissible” and the Church is firmly committed to calling for its abolition worldwide.
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.html

>>19812974
He raises some good points though such as Luke 11:27

>>19812520
I always hear of Reina valera

>>19813089
>It doesn't matter what the opinion of some historian is.
>some
Romans 16:7
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was".
Every academic agrees Junia was a female and the apostleship is/was open/ed to women.
The thing is progressive "christians" doesn't understood apostleship isn't require priesthood.

>>19812929

>logic can be used to change anything. We understand the dignity of women and homosexuals better than Apostles so we rule that women can be ordained and gays can get married. The groundwork is laid for all of this.
You are taking your conclusions too far. This paragraph doesn't imply that.

>>19813278
>They are outstanding among the apostles
I was wondering what translation you were using for this because the wording is strange, and it's the NIV which is not a loose rendering. The Greek is ἐπίσημος which means noted or eminent. The text is also ambiguous as to whether it means they are eminent as apostles or considered eminent by the apostles, and can be read either way. Wording it the way the NIV does subtly favors the former reading.
>You are taking your conclusions too far. This paragraph doesn't imply that.
I am implying that this is the same logic that can be used to justify whatever change you want. If you now better such that the previous teaching regarding capital punishment can simply be dispensed with and replaced with our superior understanding, this can be applied elsewhere.

>>19813301
>and it's the NIV which is* a loose rendering
typo

>>19813278
>Every academic agrees ... the apostleship is/was open/ed to women.
>No one who disagrees counts as an academic heehee
Do you think I don't see through this?

>>19813278
There are only 12 apostles cope women are not for church leadership roles unless they are only speaking to other women

>>19813329
There were more than 12 apostles, but otherwise you are correct.

>>19813301
it is ἐπίσημοι which is plural

>>19813393
Thank you for this meaningless pedantic correction.

>>19813404
it's not meaningless, ἐπίσημος is the masculine form, while ἐπίσημοι can be used for males AND females when males are also present

>>19813409
I never disputed whether Junia was female or not. I simply used the base form of the word and Junia's sex had no bearing in what I said.

Since there is a lot of argument with Protestants in these threads I will tell you all something, assuming that you actually want to convert these people rather than rail at them in an argument. The latter serves only to buttress your own pride and does not serve Christ. If you would serve him then your effort should be to bring Protestants into unity with the church. And so the first thing you should do is stop with the "prot"/"prottie" nonsense and other abusive language. Again this serves no one but yourself. If they are abusive to you then rejoice in being insulted for the sake of Christ, who will reward you, and do not return their behavior. If you cannot do this then the only thing your words will do is harden their hearts.

That being said, I will tell you what the best argument against Protestantism is, specially for Protestants who have concern for these matters, for history, and for ensuring they are in possession of the truth. Many think the best argument is the canon, but to most Protestants this simply feels absurd, and to anyone who is educated on the history of the matter, this cannot function as the silver bullet that you think it is. The argument against sola scriptura is similar, and Protestant apologists spend much time formulating defenses of this. Rather the best argument is this: if the Protestant understanding of the gospel is correct, if this is the core of Christian teaching, then how is it that there is no concern for this in the early church? There is no talk of "gospel issues", rather there is dispute over the proper formulation of the trinity, sacramental matters, etc. The things that were of such great import to the early church are of minimal import to the Protestant, and the things which are of great import to the Protestant are apparently of no concern to the early church. How can such a thing be? This is what should be pressed in these discussions.

>>19813548
Show me the biblical basis for Marian worship.
If you're catholic, for the filioque; if you're ortho, what's your answer to Exodus 20:4
If you cop out with some reductio ad absurdum argument i'll slap you over the screen

>>19813614
the best argument for the filioque I've heard is Revelation 22:1

>>19813630
Quite fickle. The Son received the Holy Spirit, and is sat beside the Father. Seems like a literary artifact in the text, and quite a stretch in the interpretation.

>>19810007

>>19813693
John 1:1 tho

>>19813723
You'll need to be more explicit in how that relates

>>19813614
Sorry it took me a while to respond.
>Show me the biblical basis for Marian worship.
We do not worship Mary but honor her and pray for her her to intercede for us on behalf of her son. The veneration of Mary is referenced in Luke 1:48 but the practice on the whole is not taught in scripture. We also hold that Mary has theological significance in how we understand Christ, and refer to her as Theotokos (God-bearer) or Mother of God for this reason, to confirm our belief in the divinity of Christ.
>if you're ortho, what's your answer to Exodus 20:4
We do not worship the saints we depict in icons. We also affirm that by the Incarnation, by God becoming man, he appropriated an image to himself and presented himself to us in a way that we could normally perceive and it is therefore appropriate to depict Christ.

>>19813278
The heterosexual translation is:
>who are of note among the apostles
I do not claim to know one way or another, but it should be considered that the meaning here could be that the Apostles all know of Andronicus and Junia and think highly of them, rather than Andronicus and Junia themselves being noteworthy Apostles.

>>19813950
Ah, >>19813301 covered my point.

I paid £7.50 for my Bible. Why do people pay so much for theirs? Also if anyone wants to recommend some good, cheap Bibles I’d like to see them

>>19813984
Because I want a high quality bibles with pages that won't tear, a bible that has many tools in it with cross references and a concordance and wide margins with a comfortable cover while your holding it.

>>19813923
>We do not worship Mary
>worships "Mary"

>>19809588
>It says even the burning bush of Moses was a "type of Mary"
Does this poster know what "type" means in Biblical exegesis?

>>19813984
There's nothing wrong with cheap Bibles as long as they're decently bound.

>>19814062
The burning bush is a type of Mary because the bush was consumed by the fire of God but not burnt, likewise Mary bore God inside her body and was not harmed, either while carrying or birthing him.

>>19813923
>not taught in scripture
yeah. that's the problem. Also your "veneration" is done in the same way as prayer, and just as fervorously. Doesn't seem like something different.
>we do not worship the icons
Don't you have a special place for them in the home, and pray in front of or with them?

>>19814087
Are you the poster who was upset by that though?

>>19814110
>yeah. that's the problem.
It is fine, as the practice is conformity with the teachings of the apostles. There is nothing in scripture that renders it inappropriate.
>Also your "veneration" is done in the same way as prayer, and just as fervorously. Doesn't seem like something different. Don't you have a special place for them in the home, and pray in front of or with them?
Prayer is not necessarily indicative of worship. For example we do not serve Mary of the saints, we serve God only. The prayer that we make to them is not the same as the prayer we make to God. Prayer is simply the means by which we may speak to them, as they are with God.

>>19814152
No, but I checked the thread and no one explained what was meant by this typology so I made my post.

Besides the weakness of man and the awareness of sin as a perpetual chance for penitence rather than as final damnation, does anyone else see in the denial of Peter and particularly the insistence of the crowd of his being a disciple of Christ and ultimate capitulation of Peter with his weeping at the prophesized rooster's crow a statement on the essential good inner nature in the depths of man's soul?

>>19814087
Someone was "consumed" with worship of "Mary" to spend time deep searching the Scriptures for any possible place to find "her" instead of having their focus on God/Christ, and even aside from that, talk about a stretch. Satan wants us to see things in place of God. The burning bush is all glory to God, but here are these Satanic Babylonian pagans taking away from that and saying "look, there's Mary!" just like getting fooled into praying to "her" instead of God, as if God can't handle anything and everything on His own.
>>19814110
>pray in front of or with them
They pray *to* them.
>>19814163
>There is nothing in scripture that renders it inappropriate
Amazing how you can find all of these "types" in Scripture but are blinded to the many instances of type for your idolatry.
>oh no no no, praying to "Mary" and (alleged) "saints" and bowing before them, etc. is not at all typed throughout the OT. Funny how Mary is there in Acts and they didn't make any sort of big deal out of her, didn't "venerate" her while she was alive there with them, and in fact barely mentioned her at all. Funny how when the woman called out to Jesus "blessed is the womb that bore you" he didn't take that opportunity to say "and you should pray to her, in fact". Funny how Jesus was asked to teach us how to pray and what He gave us was directly to the Father with zero mention of His earthly mother or alleged "saints".
>There is nothing in scripture that renders it inappropriate.
If you listen carefully you can hear the hiss of the serpent in that.

>>19814501
Formatting error, should be:
>oh no no no, praying to "Mary" and (alleged) "saints" and bowing before them, etc. is not at all typed throughout the OT.
Funny how Mary is there in Acts and they didn't make any sort of big deal out of her, didn't "venerate" her while she was alive there with them, and in fact barely mentioned her at all. Funny how when the woman called out to Jesus "blessed is the womb that bore you" he didn't take that opportunity to say "and you should pray to her, in fact". Funny how Jesus was asked to teach us how to pray and what He gave us was directly to the Father with zero mention of His earthly mother or alleged "saints".

>>19814511
>blah blah blah fuck mary
Ok

>>19814537
Wrong, f___ worshiping/praying to anyone but God.

>>19814638
You have not established that praying to someone is the same as worshiping them.
>James 5:16 ... pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Is this true? If it is then how is it worship to ask for the prayers of those who are with God?

>>19814740
>pray FOR one another
Not TO

>>19814080
>>19813984
False. You NEVER buy a Bible printed in China.

>>19814824
You missed my point. It says that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful. You said earlier that asking those in heaven to pray for us is taking away from our worship of God, but the scripture tells us that it is good to have righteous people pray for you. When we pray to the saints we are asking them to pray for us; we know they are righteous and thus according to scripture their prayers are highly regarded by God.

>>19814841
This. Fuck Thomas Nelson and fuck Crossway now, too.

>>19814871
>admits praying to the saints
"No we just venerate them and stuff"
Kek

>>19815068
yep. Only buy authorized versions that are printed and bound in Netherlands or UK (Allan and Cambridge)

>>19814841
Fair point but most people don't even think of where the Bibles are printed, or are aware of what China is doing against Christians. Generally speaking we now live in a global economy which is increasingly filthy and convoluted and on top of all opaque. AFAIK competition is forcing anyone who doesn't have a name like Cambridge or one of a luxury Bible seller to print in China. Why China specifically and not other countries that probably also persecute Christians, I don't know. Maybe you'd get your place burned down while China probably doesn't care unless the Bibles are destined to China and/or until the West collapses completely.
I'm not sure if this is just going to throw smaller publishers under the bus and do fundamentally useless collateral damage. There was an anon who said that KJVs printed in China have changes in them. They don't. It's all a vague political issue you see only one side of.

>>19815321
There's no reason to buy a China-printed book in any context. Even self-published vanity books are USA-printed. A publisher really has to be turbo-jews to have lower standards than self-publishers.

>>19815321
Not to mention china fucks with Bibles. Many cases of misprints or missing verses in chink printed Bibles. With chinese influence expanding and Europe being invaded by chinks/muslims, I am personally buying several copies of high quality authorized Bibles to keep and to pass on to future generations

Thinking of getting a KJV

>>19815435
>"""V"""
You could have just said "thinking of getting a Holy Bible".

>>19815375
Then I got lied to by various articles, I guess.
>>19815409
>Not to mention china fucks with Bibles. Many cases of misprints or missing verses in chink printed Bibles.
Ironically the only Bible I have which has misprints is my Cambridge Turquoise. I'm kind of salty about that.
My Oxford is printed in Korea. Go figure.

>>19815435
It's a masterpiece, perfect as the Lord who guided its authors' hands is perfect.

>>19815452
>>19815667
same fag

>>19815679
"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty"

>>19815679
It's incredible how fucking persistent certain people are with trolling.

>>19815684
boggles the mind, hes never able to back up the claim either

>>19815614
All of the chinese bibles I have contain some form of misprint. My 2 cambridge cameo KJV bibles have no misprints. Neither does my Allan longprimer. I only buy high quality when it comes to these things.

>>19815720
Yeah this thread is always full of pathetic King-James-only types. Just ignore them and continue reading the RSV/ESV to spite them.

>>19815679
>>19815720
>hes
Yeah, no way there could be more than one person who has no use for these modern "bibles" made for corporate profits and translated by non believers who aren't even capable of understanding the underlying actualities being expressed in Scripture.

One interesting thing about Chinese-printed books is the weird green tinge in the gutter. Are these books radioactive? I saw it in the RGJ review of the reader's edition Septuaginta, here:
https://youtu.be/XSOn_bNmsGM?t=1725
Turned me off from that and convinced me to stick with the German Bible Society for the same text.

What went wrong?

>>19810207
What if the clergy at your local congregation are wonderful people but are still preaching false doctrine?

>>19814501
People pray to Mary so she can act as an indermediary between them and God.

>>19815912
god, i hate retarded larping /pol/shitters so much

>>19810207
>le aesthetics
ngl le aesthetics are pretty good

>>19816419
1 Timothy 2:5

>>19816515
This btfo's the saint prayers

>>19816404
Then you show them they're in error. They'll either thank you and correct themselves, or get very not wonderful.

>>19816426
>Anon posts thing the Pope said
>AAHH /POL/ AAHHHH *hits Discord, The Ten Trannies Tavern* MODS, MODS HELP THERE'S SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE GAYS ON 4CHAN

>>19816548
imagine being so retarded that you think i was commenting on what the pope said.

>>19817163
If it's about the image under it
Back to >>>/a/

>>19816419
>>19816515
>>19816538
They are not acting as intermediaries, they are simply praying for us. Again see >>19814740. If the saint is acting as an intermediary because they are praying for us then having anyone pray for you is having them act as an intermediary, but this is not the case and scripture supports it and recognizes that God shows favor to the prayers of the holy.

>>19817199
Then why do you pray to them instead of just going "pray for me y'all"

>>19817208
>y'all
Because I'm not Southern.

>>19817220
Kek.
Now the actual answer

>>19817208
They are with God and that is the only way we may communicate with them.

>>19817238
>communicating with the dead
That sounds badly worded if you don't mean such.

>>19817238
And, as i've asked of others, what's the biblical basis for such pleading? It says you should pray for one another, but nothing about praying for someone to do it. Would you bow before a brother and pray that he prays for you?

>>19817271
They are not dead but alive with Christ. They do not abide in Hades (Acts 2:31). Further some saints such as Elijah and Mary did not die and were assumed bodily.

>>19817308
Where exactly is that? And, on the topic of Acts, Mary is there, but there's no mention that she should be prayed to, or anything of the sort.

>>19817306
>>19817339
They are in heaven with Christ awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. The basis of this is that the church, the entire church, is the mystical body of Christ. There is no reason to think we are cut off from those who in heaven. Bowing does not connote worship, you can see instances of bowing used to show veneration in the Old Testament. I have to go to work so I will not be able to continue the conversation for a while.

>>19817208
>>19817271
>>19817339
The dead in Christ are alive right now with Him.

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16 KJB)

>>19817369
Lastly, then, where is it said in scripture that Mary was assumed bodily, and all of your other points?

>>19817403
Aka the same verse everyone always quotes. How are you so sure it concerns the dead? Let's say you're from a family of righteous people. Could you pray for your ancestors to pray for you? Or just saints?

>>19810007
Anyone know if the OP is genuine leather?

>>19817403
show me even one example of someone in the bible praying to their ancestors or saints.

>>19817500
Saul speaks to Samuel after Samuel dies.

>>19817431
A saint is simply someone who is known to be in heaven. They are generally known by the fact that many faithful have asked for their intercession, and God has answered some of those prayers in a miraculous way.

>>19817409
Where in scripture does it say to accept only what is written in scripture?

>>19817506
that is not prayer.

>>19817516
any believer is a saint 1 Corinthians 6:2

>>19817500
I don't have to because Solo Scriptura is false.

>>19813329
>>19813346
Romans 16:1

>>19817703
t. False teacher who is easily influenced by sources other than God's word itself
>>19817743
>for she herself has also been a HELPER of many

>>19817784
the original text says διάκονον which means deacon

>Historians Gary Macy, Kevin Madigan and Carolyn Osiek claim to have identified documented instances of ordained women in the early Church.[67][3] In 2021, excavations at the site of a 1600-year-old Byzantine basilica revealed mosaics that provided evidence of women serving primarily as diaconal ministers in early Christendom (though there has been speculation of other religious leaders or ministers being leaders of convents).

>K. K. Fitzgerald has followed and amplified Theodorou's research. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote: The order of deaconesses seems definitely to have been considered an "ordained" ministry during early centuries in at any rate the Christian East. ... Some Orthodox writers regard deaconesses as having been a "lay" ministry. There are strong reasons for rejecting this view. In the Byzantine rite the liturgical office for the laying-on of hands for the deaconess is exactly parallel to that for the deacon; and so on the principle lex orandi, lex credendi—the Church's worshipping practice is a sure indication of its faith—it follows that the deaconesses receives, as does the deacon, a genuine sacramental ordination: not just a χειροθεσια (chirothesia) but a χειροτονια (chirotonia).

>>19817798
1 Timothy 2:11–12
Disproves this as well as 1 Timothy 3:12 which says a deacon must have only one wife and obviously a woman would not have a wife.

>>19817829
So Paul changed his mind?

>>19817568
But these days we only call someone a saint once we know they're in heaven. Because only those in heaven are certain to have had true faith.

what's the best spanish bible

>>19817851
No you are just misinterpreting scripture for your own worldview the word is servant however a deacon is also a servant so Paul used the same word here but its most likely he did not mean it as a deacon of the church. Also just because an early church does something does not mean it is right. Infact many early churches had major problems.

>>19817859
>true faith
Cope

>>19817901
>Infact many early churches had major problems.
This, Paul wrote about a lot, and Christ blasted them in Revelation. The notion that something is legitimate because it was in the early church is a disingenuous cover for slipping in false doctrines. This is why if it's not in Scripture, or at least in no way contrary with it, it is disregarded.

What's the optimal number of raised ribs on a Bible's spine?

>>19818094
I suppose it would depend on what the raised ribs are actually for. I haven't figured this out yet.

>>19818094
7 for the seals of Revelation.

Check this project out...I would be *very* interested in having a print in English.

https://hexapla.org/

I have a question. So is it truly only going to be 144,000 in heaven? Have we not yet filled all those spots up? I read somewhere that it would be 144,000 in Heaven but many more are going to be resurrected, but it seemed like a fringe Charismatic viewpoint.
Make sure you pray for those who you’re not on good terms with before bed. They need help just as we do. Felt compelled to say this for whatever reason. Goodnight

>>19818518
I think there’s just 144,000 pure Christians left on earth at the time of Revelation.

>>19811401
I don't get it. Is a rating of 1 good or bad?

>>19818571
A rating of 1 would mean every single selected verse would be a woodenly literal match to the Greek word with no adjustment for tense, pronoun, clarifying words, etc. to correspond for how actual English reads.

Favorite bible verses? /Book ?

I love revelations aesthetically speaking, from a strictly literary point of view:

>And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

and of course because Aphrodite's Child made an entire album around it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7iYkNk3YU

>>19817798
Bro, today there are deaconess in the Orthodox Church.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Deaconess
Are they priests? Nope.

why are you all obsessed with the bible

if anything deserves its own general it would be shakespeare

>>19818813
Cool go make one.
If you read the thread you'll see people here aren't obsessed they just like to troll people of other denominations. That's the only thing keeping this thread off page 10.

>>19818518
>So is it truly only going to be 144,000 in heaven?
No.

Gen. 15:5 And [the Lord] brought [Abraham] outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

>>19819172
Come on... the heaven of that Genesis quote doesn't mean afterlife Heaven.

>>19819187
Did you misread it that badly? Abraham's offspring are those who have faith in Christ, and they will be as numberless as the stars.

>>19818718
Revelations aswell. From the point that you have to decipher (almost) the whole text.

>>19819189
God is simply says that Abraham's offspring will be as many as the stars in the sky. There's no mention of Jesus whatsoever you absolute schizo.

>>19810863
Only you believe we worship Mary, my friend. None of the Catholics or Orthodox do

>>19819209
Read the New Testament at some point please.

>>19819209
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise

Rom. 9:6-8 ... For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

>>19819239
a later writer making reference to an older text doesn't change the meaning of the original. which is why citing the genesis verse while arguing about how many can enter heaven was silly because that verse wasn't referring to heaven.

>>19819271
I was under the impression I was speaking to a Christian. If that is not the case then I have no interest in discussing the matter with you.

If a tradition is or was adhered to by all Christians in the world universally then it is correct. Prayer to the saints fits this criteria.

>>19810058
Think on the sacrifice of the Son of God and on God's love that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. None of us deserve God's grace.

>>19811333
No, it's very enjoyable to read, I particularly like the older English. I also enjoyed learning about the history of it and the translation process and the politics of the time. It's also far better than modern bibles whose only appeal seems to be being dumbed-down to conform to the common English of today, although that's the least of concerns of many modern versions with some of the subtle changes, subtle like a serpent.

>>19811761
>>19811770
Strictly speaking, Israelites (Jewish Almanac 1980).

>>19813923
>We do not worship Mary
If it walks like a duck...

>>19817308
>>19817403
They're Resting In Peace, hence R.I.P.
John 11:11-14, 23-24
Psalms 6:3-5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4
Isaiah 38:18-19

>>19819209
The promise of a savior is all throughout the Bible. Pretty easy topic to look up so you should be able to find verses if you try.

>>19819478
Another example would be not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton but replacing it with a different word, also universal among Jews.

>>19819478
Christians aren't to practice necromancy. Why do you concern yourself more with the traditions of men than the Word of God?
Matthew 6:9; 15:9
Mark 7:7

>>19819487
>They're Resting In Peace, hence R.I.P.
They are free from all suffering and worldly toil. They are not unconscious.
>John 11:11-14, 23-24
"Sleep" here is not used literally. Paul also refers to Christians who have passed on as having fallen asleep, because they are not dead but alive with God.
>Psalms 6:3-5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4
>Isaiah 38:18-19
When we die we do not go to Sheol or Hades but to heaven to await the resurrection of our bodies. In the past this was the case, but not after Christ's resurrection.
>>19819528
It is not necromancy since they are not dead. They are not under the power of death in Sheol. They along with us are the church, which is the mystical body of Christ. We are one body.

>>19819536
>It is not necromancy since they are not dead.
John 11:14 "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."


>>19819478
You command to pray "our church saints..." because "everyone's doing it", the pope commands to pray "our mother of heaven..."; but what does Jesus Christ say?
- Matthew 6:6 "[...] pray to thy Father [...]"
- Matthew 6:9 "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

As for deriving our doctrines from the world, from pop culture or peer pressure or popularity, what does the Bible say?
- Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Should we concern ourselves with men's commandments or God's commandments?
- John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
- 1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
- Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
- 1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

- Acts 5:29 "[...] We ought to obey God rather than men."
- Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
- Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
- Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Will you build your house on sand or on rock?
- Matthew 7:24-27
- 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
- 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
- 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
- 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_opposition_to_papal_supremacy
Catholic bros..

>>19819732
Lazarus was in Sheol as Christ had not yet died and resurrected.

Sup anons.
So I am recently embracing the catholic church after being an agnostic for most of my life. But really the main thing that bothers me is regarding premarital sex. I think it is asinine that this is a mortal sin and I believe that this is one of those left over historical rites that makes no sense in the context of today's world (in that, marriage is not something that happens when you are 18, but something that happens when you are 35). So I can attend mass every week but I can't get the eucharist? That is quite frustrating to me.

>>19819891
oh, and I am obviously saying this from the male perspective as opposed to the female one...I have no interest in getting married until I am financially stable and can support a family. This is why I want to be at least in my mid 30s before I consider a wife.

>>19819891
I don't why you return to the Catholic Church when you don't believe the Moral Law instilled by God through His Church must bow at the whims of the times. Do you think the law against fornication was given because nobody fornicated? Laws are given so you don't do or do certain things. What gives you the audacity to be above God's Law?

Also
>sup
>not capitalizing CC in Catholic Church
Anon, I ...

>>19820047
>I don't why you return to the Catholic Church when you don't believe the Moral Law instilled by God through His Church must bow at the whims of the times
I am not going to give my life story but after being depressed and self loathing I have experienced inexplicable warmth while reading the bible and talking to some friends about this subject. I am also lonely and going to Church gives me a community.
>What gives you the audacity to be above God's Law?
Realism about my current life goals. As I have already posted, I have no interest in getting married for at least another 10 years. So I am supposed to be celibate for this period of my life to be completely pure? I can realistically say that this is not happening and I am not going to larp on here and act like I would have any chance of doing this.

>>19818813
(You) are obviously clueless. Catholics and "Orthodox™" don't really care about the Bible much at all. They need an Ishtar General. Shakespeare makes pretty good fishing rods though, I like the Ugly Stiks.

>>19819897
>e at least in my mid 30s before I consider a wife.
by then you will not be able to marry a woman both fertile and without children, anon. i beg you to reconsider before you ruin your life. women actually do NOT marry men ten years older than themselves anymore and no child wants a father too old to take him hiking.

young children are not that expensive. youv'e been lied to. please reconsider.

>>19811333
If in English might as well read something enjoyable and go for Ronald Knox.

>>19819891
You can go to confession. You wouldn't receive the eucharist right away anyway if you just entered the Church.
Waiting to be settled for marriage is not a good thing. I know out debilitated anti-natalist society (yes, joker.jpg, etc) suggests it, but that doesn't make it good. Of course nothing wrong with being celibate till your 30s. If you have trouble handling people noticeably younger, or fear the social stigma our feminist society attaches to that, you will have to marry a used whore by then.

>>19820109
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

>>19820133
Anon. I disagree. I am 31 and my last two live in girlfriends were 24 and 25. If you are a good person, have your life together, job, money, then you can EASILY get a woman 5-8 years younger than you. I can tell you that you shouldn't rush to settle with a woman less than 25 years old. They are moronic and wish washy at best. And too much baggage if you are looking to build up your investments and spend time investing in yourself (Reading, studying, work, faith etc). Every man has their own time frame.

>>19820144
Most divorces happen with young couples because the woman or guy cheats because they are immature or want to "Experience more" before they are older. Whatever you do marry someone mature and who has the same goals. Do not marry based on looks or if there is no mutual love (not lust) but love.

>>19820157
i'm sure your wife will appreciate leaving her as a widow for 15 years, and your kids will enjoy that you die around the time they're in college. sperm also degrades over time, and finding a marriage partner can take several years, or unexpectedly longer. you can get 2 years into a relationship and then it fails. again, please reconsider. look to marry the CORRECT person, whenever they appear, and trust God to provide. you won't be without. stop castrating yourself over money.

>>19820133
What are you talking about? I have a fairly successful career path I am currently on and I will be affluent. If I find a woman through the Church I will be able to find a young and fertile woman to marry.
>>19820144
>You can go to confession. You wouldn't receive the eucharist right away anyway if you just entered the Church.
I have already received Communion, so I would be a lapsed Catholic.
The problem as I understand it, however, is if I confess but then continue doing the sin, then this is actually worse than even confessing in the first place. Am I correct in understanding this?

>>19820175
kek. You are very diluted my friend. My uncle is a physician. He married when he was 38 to a 30 year old. At 38 he was financially set for life, at 40 he had his first child. He is 62 now and his child is turning 23. They are one of the happiest and most successful families I know. You never have children too early kek. People live so long now. Imagine having a child when you are 26. Your "Kid" will be trying to take care of you when the kid is in his 60's. Kek. I want a younger kid to take care of me when im old. Not a 60 year old. Plus I want to be financially sound to raise a kid the right way and give them access to the best education, home, vacations, etc. You are living in the 1800's. Only 3rd world immigrants and trailer trash are popping out kids in their early 20's

>>19819478
Protestant bros, how is it possible that the entire church, every single church across the entire world, for centuries on end, fell into the same false teaching?

>>19820173
Young people barely marry compared to previous generations, divorce is certainly not driven by this. Divorce is in this day and age essentially a semi-random process. The man has very little control over it aside from avoiding a few glowing red flags. Wives can trigger it on a whim and there is nothing you can do from that point on. She is greatly incentivized to do it, socially and financially.
There is also nothing wrong with marrying an "immature" woman, it was done for a long time and marriages were happier. In any case it is questionnable how many women ever mature by themselves and how long that takes. If anything the marriage itself and especially having children are the processes that induce "maturation".
As for the cheating, I find it baffling how you present things. The more men a girl has been with before, which is obviously implied by your "maturity", the more likely she will cheat (as well as cause other relationship troubles). The reformed whore that had seen it all and is ready to settle down is certainly not an objective.
>bible thread
Might as well look up the marriage recommandation there.

>>19820287
Anon what world do you live in? By the time the average 21 year old female is done with college she has "Hooked up" with at least 2-6 other men since high school years. No one is getting a fresh/virgin woman after 21 in this day and age.

>>19819891
Allow me to present the teaching to you positively rather than negatively (as a command to not do something). Marriage is a "type" of the church, which is a term used to indicate a foreshadowing or prefiguration of something. As Eve from created from the rib of Adam as a separate being, so in marriage man and woman once again become one flesh. Similarly man is separated from God due to sin, but by entrance in to the church he reunites with God, because the church is the body of Christ. We are the members of the body and Christ is the head of the body. And so we, once separated, once again become united in one body -- and thus it is said that the church is the bride of Christ. In this way the church fulfills marriage, as this is the reality which marriage points to. That being said, the primary point of human sexuality is the creation of life within the covenant of marriage. As the union of marriage creates physical life, so the union of the church creates spiritual life. It is not just about some law that we have to follow, but about properly fulfilling what it means to be human. When sex is utilized outside of its proper course, it distorts the true reality of these things.

>>19820285
Satan and shit. Also they wanted to keep Greco-Roman paganism alive, even in Persia, Armenia and Ethiopia.
Only schizos murder advocates in the 16th century knew, by making the hidden church resurface that was so well hidden there is no trace of it from apostolic times on. Except we don't follow those reformers anymore because they were hecking antisemitic, so really only recent pastors blessing Israel know. The pagano-satanic papist Whore of Babylon shall fall, insha'allah.

>>19820314
I know, isn't that plenty enough "maturity". Should anon wait till she's 34 and ready to settle down after reaching three digits?

>>19820285
People are the Church not the building. And looking at what Christ tells the churches in revelation it is obvious that the majority are wrong in multiple aspects.

>>19820368
Yes, the people, the people in every church in every country it existed throughout the world all followed this teaching for well over one thousand years, and the majority still do. How is this possible?

>>19820385
>every person did this
Cope you have no way of knowing if this is true or not and biblically you are wrong. God always keeps a remnant of people somewhere in the world

>>19820416
Now you've made this such a fundamental aspect of the faith that a true Christian cannot engage in it, so there must be a "remnant" somewhere as the visible church had completely fallen into heresy and darkness. Did Christ fail? Did the apostles fail? That is the only way to understand this. All the people who formulated the trinity for example were heretics and not part of the "remnant" church.

>>19820363
Pursuing long meaningful relationships with modern women is akin to pursuing financial, mental and spiritual destruction. Have fun. Your retard kids can raised by satanic social media platforms and be owned by zuckerberg and live in the metaverse. Anyone who has the boomer mindset of "MUH WIFE IS MUH LIFE!" aint gonna make it.

>>19820324
Thanks for writing this. I absolutely understand the importance of building a family through church and I know what I am writing can be seen as controversial. I do want to get married and build a family. It is a long term goal of mine.
But here are some of the problems with this:
1. Even if I am to be celibate until marriage, it is a grave sin for me to receive oral sex from my wife until completion.
2. Even if I am celibate until marriage, I can't have anal sex with my wife.
3. Even if I completely abstain until marriage, I will still have wet dreams and "waste my seed".
4. Even if I completely dedicate myself to the Church -- through study of the Bible, through practicing the commandments, through prayer, and through eliminating as much sin from my life as possible (which, by the way, I am doing) -- I am still somebody who then can't partake in the Eucharist because of these aforementioned transgressions.
5. And even if I plan to continue on this path towards Christ, I am still seen as some heathen because I am exploring relationships with women and have premarital sex, even if I am improving my life and attaining wisdom.
I recognize that most people don't follow these rules anyways, but still it bothers me if I am going to take part in religious rites and not actually be honest with what I am doing.

>>19820416
>God always keeps a remnant of people somewhere in the world
Wait, in my above shitpost I didn't except that there would be legit morons still rehashing the hidden church meme. I don't think anyone has made that argument seriously outside the anglosphere since the time of Bossuet.

>>19820444
so what's the solution? surely it's not just "don't have children"

>>19820449
>1. Even if I am to be celibate until marriage, it is a grave sin for me to receive oral sex from my wife until completion.
>2. Even if I am celibate until marriage, I can't have anal sex with my wife.
These are abusive behaviors that a properly ordered conscience would not want to engage in. You may think that they are normal and benign but they are not. Do you view pornography regularly? You don't have to answer but if you do view it, this is likely distorting your desires into abusiveness.
>3. Even if I completely abstain until marriage, I will still have wet dreams and "waste my seed".
For something to be a mortal sin you must will to engage in it, so wet dreams are not mortal sins and do not remove you from a state of grace.
>4. Even if I completely dedicate myself to the Church -- through study of the Bible, through practicing the commandments, through prayer, and through eliminating as much sin from my life as possible (which, by the way, I am doing) -- I am still somebody who then can't partake in the Eucharist because of these aforementioned transgressions.
>5. And even if I plan to continue on this path towards Christ, I am still seen as some heathen because I am exploring relationships with women and have premarital sex, even if I am improving my life and attaining wisdom.
Then don't have sex. That's the only answer to this quandary.

>>19820488
The solution is to get a prenup and never combine assets. Never rely on a female for financial support. If you marry a non virgin (Most do) keep them at arms length using these methods. Pre marital irrevocable trusts are also a good idea so that retirement accounts cannot be drained. Marriage is fine, but Men must protect themselves because women are allowed and encouraged to have no agency in this current generation.

>>19820449
>3. Even if I completely abstain until marriage, I will still have wet dreams and "waste my seed".
There is nothing sinful in that if only because it is involuntary.
>4. Even if I completely dedicate myself to the Church -- through study of the Bible, through practicing the commandments, through prayer, and through eliminating as much sin from my life as possible (which, by the way, I am doing) -- I am still somebody who then can't partake in the Eucharist because of these aforementioned transgressions.
You can receive confession and be clear.
>5. And even if I plan to continue on this path towards Christ, I am still seen as some heathen because I am exploring relationships with women and have premarital sex, even if I am improving my life and attaining wisdom.
Obviously the rule was dealt with in 4) so I assume you mean socially. I don't know where you live but calling out whoredom (even more so for men) is a lost art here.
I won't comment on infertile forms of sex, it really shouldn't be of interest until you find your wife anyway.

>>19820429
Keep coping. Tradition has failed for thousands of years before. I will use the jews as an example. Many jews by the time of Jesus merely were following tradition and not the true word of God the same goes with catholicism and other empty traditions such as those. Matthew 22:39-40 the jews failed to follow these commands so are you the one saying God failed during this time?

>>19815912
>watches anime
>complains about le pope

you need to go back

>>19820532
The ideal would be to marry in Church and never see any bureaucrat to enter a bizarro slavery contract (which is what legal marriage is today for men). Good luck convincing women of that. Though late millennials and zoomers marry little enough that it might become an easy option soon enough. All the people under 25 I know don't really plan on marriage, and the (non incel) 25-35 have long terms live in girlfriends they often don't marry even after having children.
>prenups
Don't they get thrown out all the time simply when the wife claims she was under duress, with no recourse?

>bible thread
The Siracide wad a surprising blackpill on marriage.

In any case as long as people were saved in their belief the church was alive anything else is merely a sanctification and Christian life issue so whatever type of church was in power generally does not have any end all be all truth

>>19820622
There are traditions that are false and there are traditions that are true. I mentioned it earlier but not pronouncing the tetragrammaton is a universal tradition of both Jews and Christians (until Protestants). In what way is this a failure to worship God properly?

>>19820622
Who's coping? There is nothing but tradition, including the bible which is only a piece of tradition and wouldn't exist outside of it (its content was decided by big bad traditionalist Mary worshippers).
It's only a matter of what is true or not among traditions. All the arguments point to what anon mentions above as being true.

>>19820660
Same with my friends group. None of them are marrying and most of them only do if their family is wealthy enough to support them financially

>>19820680
And essential Catholic traditions are almost totally provably false, like ever virgin Mary which even Catholic Answers admits comes from the 2nd century gnostic fan fiction Gospel of James which even the Catholic "Church™" deemed non canonical.

I've come around to agreeing about the veneration of the saints and Mary, but it seems to me like Catholicism goes overboard regarding Mary, with the talk about serving Mary, Mary as co-redeemer, etc. Orthodoxy seems more grounded in ensuring the ultimate focus is Christ.

>>19820713
>he hasn't read the "Orthodox™" Theotokos save us prayers
>he doesn't realize that the entire annual "Orthodox™" liturgical calendar both begins and ends with "celebrations of Mary" rather than Christ who is the Alpha & Omega which we are told in Revelation which is the *one and only book* of the NT that the "Orthodox™" do not read in services

In Apostolic Christianity (RC/EO), are certain thoughts considered sinful? Or rather, how do these churches view the relationship between the will, the thoughts, actions, and sin? I've heard the terms "nous" and "gnomic will" before in EO circles, but I didn't really understand them even in context.
I'm asking because I have a problem with intrusive thoughts. My stream of consciousness can be focused on something else, while random thoughts about demons or porn or doing retarded stuff seem to bubble up out of nowhere, to the point that they almost seem to have an external source rather than arising from my own mind. What is going on here?

>>19820691
The Bible is God's Word not tradition

>>19820738
>>he hasn't read the "Orthodox™" Theotokos save us prayers
This type of language is used in scripture. I grant that it can be misunderstood but so can Mother of God. In the way it is meant it is not objectionable.

>>19820706
>even the Catholic "Church™" deemed non canonical.
Why "even"? The Catholic Church defined the canon.
>totally provably false, like ever virgin Mary
It is certainly not "totally provably false". At most there would be no element in that regard (inb4 shitposting about the meaning of brothers and sisters), and that's disregarding all consensus from the very people that refuted Gnosticism as far as we can trace them.

>>19820713
There's really little different in Mariology outside the Immaculate Conception (which orthobros don't see as necessary because they've always been light on original sin).

>>19820756
>There's really little different in Mariology outside the Immaculate Conception (which orthobros don't see as necessary because they've always been light on original sin).
Right, I don't think the actual dogma on the matter is much different, but there seems to be a different focus in spirituality, with Mary being given a greater emphasis in Catholicism. For examples Orthodox repeat the Jesus Prayer while Catholics repeat the Rosary. It feels to me like Catholic spirituality wants to primarily approach Christ through Mary as an intermediary.

>>19820488
Go off grid
Live on a farm
Be self-sufficient
Make 10+ children to help you with the chores

>>19820778
Honestly I get the impression that Catholics might even be afraid in some way of approaching Christ directly.

>>19820796
Like take pic related as an example. Christ is conceived as enforcing justice, punishing the guilty, etc., whereas all mercy is conceded to Mary.

>>19820756
Yeah, not even a "nice cope". Read *carefully*. And remember "Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor SERVE them"

"To the Theotokos, let us run now most fervently,
As sinners and lowly ones,
Let us fall down in repentance,
Crying from the depths of our soul:
Lady, come and help us,
Have compassion upon us;
Hasten now for we are lost
In the host of our errors;
Do not turn your SERVANTS away,
FOR YOU ALONE are a hope to us."

And that's just a tiny excerpt, there's *way more* where that came from.

>>19820778
There are devotional forms to Mary, you can avoid them if you want. In services of obligation you will have her name said first when mentioning saints, and there are a couple of solemnities and semi-feasts about her (as in the Russian rite except for the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception). I never really cared much on that aspect.

>>19820796
Surely that's why His name is only said fifty times during mass. And is actually present in the sacrament unlike in the parodies of it.
The nerve on some protestants claiming people receiving the Eucharist are afraid to approach Christ directly.

>>19820842
>Surely that's why His name is only said fifty times during mass. And is actually present in the sacrament unlike in the parodies of it.
>The nerve on some protestants claiming people receiving the Eucharist are afraid to approach Christ directly.
What exactly am I supposed to think when I read something like this? >>19820813

>>19820848
Meant to quote
>>19820753

>>19820856
Dang, >>19820823 meant to quote >>19820753, I'm in the middle of cooking right now.

How the fuck did catholics jusify their beliefs historically, today obviously they can't be and it's hilariously obvious that half of their doctrine is just made up "tradition" with no biblical support (mary being born without sin, praying to mary, purgatory, missing mass once being a mortal sin, different categories of sin, transubstantiation, having to confess sins to a priest in a box instead of a fellow believer or God, infant baptism, indulgences and prayers for the dead reducing the amount of time one would spend in purgatory, clerical celibacy, "queen of heaven").

>>19820870
>infant baptism
This is justifiable from scripture via covenant theology.

>>19820823
Catholics think that there are special Sacred Heart amulets that grant you a place to heaven if you pray while holding them, and Protestants argue that whenever homosexuality is mentioned, the word "man" means "small boy" but not a slightly older boy, those are fine. What I am trying to express here is that anything can be written or said by anyone regardless of faith and denomination. I have no idea where this is from but I have seen no prayer book where this sort of approach happens. Everything is very squarely within "pray for us" and the intercession aspect is very transparent. I have problems with just about every denomination but I don't understand why you prottys are so hellbent on expressing your disagreement with old doctrine just because you have none yourself. You always hide behind the inherent fragmentation of the Reformed, "well those are Protestants but they're not MY denomination! Those are my denomination but they're not from MY parish! I said that was MY parish but I never actually joined, I just argue on the internet! This part is in the section of the Scripture I chose to ignore! This part is in the Scripture but I think it means something else!"

>>19820870
>indulgences and prayers for the dead reducing the amount of time one would spend in purgatory

Maccabees 2 says hi

>>19820870
The belief was justified by already being there as tradition, or as logical consequences of what was already traditional. The bible is among those traditions for instance. No it isn't the "word of god" in a muslim like sense, it was written by men in a mess of a historical procedure and ended up, after five recompilations and rewritings, being decided upon as tradition by a vote. Even then several items there are deducible from the bible.

>>19820906
Protestants claim to be true bible Christians by refusing the canon of the Church and the scriptures used from the earliest times to prefer the choice made by proto-talmudic anti-Christian post-temple rabbis.
By the way Mac 2 also deals with the purgatory issue in his list.

>>19820906
you can pray for the dead, luther said so but purgatory isn't real

>>19820929
>This is bread. It'll help you remember
kek

>>19820896
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge,
With both my soul and my reasoning.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

A protection and shelter,
I have with you in my life,
You, the Theotokos and the Virgin,
Pilot me towards your port;
For you are the cause,
The cause of that which is good,
Support of the faithful,
The only all-praised One.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

I entreat you, O Virgin,
Disperse the storm of my grief,
and the soul's most inward confusion,
Scatter it far from me

With most serious ailments,
And with the passions so dark,
I am being tested, O Virgin,
Come and bring help to me;
For I have known of you,
That you are without fail
the endless treasure of cures,
Only all-blameless One.

Deliver us,
All of your servants, from danger, O Theotokos

A fervent prayer, and wall most unshakable
A merciful spring And shelter of all mankind;
Fervently, we cry to you:
Theotokos, our Lady,
Come to us
And from all dangers now deliver us
The only protection who speeds to us

>>19820929
hurr

>>19820989
Yet it's still His body, unlike any of the others options.
Transubstantiation is what you naturally come to when needing that hard fact to go with a basic sense of reality (even in a hardline idealist perspective which I would approve rather than Aristotelian autism but that's another matter). At worst you could argue about the definition of substance, which is far from a matter of agreement among philosophers, although everyone spontaneously understood what was meant there whether it is Aquinas, Duns Scot, Descartes, Leibniz, Malebranche, etc.
I know you guys like to split into dozen more "denominations" every decade, so which one are you?

>>19821027
I am Reformed. It is my understanding that the referent of transubstantiation is not specifically the body or blood but the full presence of Christ, which is the logic used to justify the denial of the cup to the communicant in violation of Christ's direct command to both eat and drink. Anyway, we understand Christ to be truly present in the sacrament, but only to the one who has faith.

>>19820932
Explain Matthew 5:26

>>19820989
>>19820929
eat my body = believe I died and rose from the dead
drink my blood = listen to my teachings and implement them in your day to day life

>>19820823
>>19820973
Hmm, I suppose I'll just convert to Catholicism then, that will be easier anyway.

>>19821052
>but only to the one who has faith.
Reality happens even when you don't believe in it.
People are asked not to go to communion if not baptized and prepared, or in too dark a state of sin, which wouldn't be necessary at all if that was only for muh faithful and the others had bread (it will help them remember).
Jesus was incarnated for everyone, his body wasn't a ghost hologram sent telepathically to the mind of the unbelievers. What is this pseudo-docetism?

what does it mean exactly to "speak against the holy spirit"? (Matthew 12:32)

it sounds like something thats worth understanding and avoiding if it is so unforgivable, worse than even blaspheming against Christ

>>19821116
That passage is about the physical kingdom of Christ and the consequences from breaking the laws in His kingdom

>>19811401
>NASB 2020 above NASB 1995
what is this tranny shit?

>>19821323
>millenarism
Cringe. If you simply meant eternal life, then that's just purgatory.

>>19821319
It's presumably apostasy, as Christ will forgive anyone who comes to him. But the one who has truly apostatized will not do so.

Heb. 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

>>19821337
>concerned with later than NASB 77
>calls others trannies

>>19821385
it says jesus will forgive even people who speak out against him, but those who speak out against the holy spirit cannot be forgiven in this world or the next
some pretty intense shit, man

>>19821482
Here's a (long) sermon by St. Augustine on the matter:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160321.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
>1864 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

>>19821520
Forgot to post a link to the Catechism.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

>>19821140
Or you could, you know, be Christian instead of either of them. *Read* the Holy Bible, daily. Listen for and to the voice of the Shepherd, both as you read, and as you walk each moment of life.

>>19817500

Mark 15:34-15

34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b]

35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

The reaction of the jews on Jesus' saying on the cross shows that jews regularly prayed to Elijah for example.

>>19821723
If it wasn't specifically portrayed in the Bible as a practice commanded by God, and the Jews were regularly doing it, then that should tell you right there that it is bad.

>>19811401
quantitative analysis and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

I considered getting the Peshitta in OP, but can anyone actually explain what the Peshitta NT provides that the Greek NT doesn't? It's also a tad worrying to me that the third result on Google for "syriac peshitta new testament" is the JW website.

>>19821319
The unforgivable sin against the Spirit is refusing to believe in Jesus and his work on the cross even once your entire life. the Holy Spirit convicts unbelievers for sin and unbelief. Not believing is essentially calling the Holy Spirit a liar

>>19822724
Just use the Greek

>>19822740
I do, but the Eastern Christians claim the Peshitta is more authentic and it lacks any textual variants.

>>19822804
how can it be more authentic when the original texts were written in Greek?

>>19822812
And yet the King James is more authentic than either of those.

>>19822812
Because the Syriac churches claim that the original texts were actually written in Aramaic and that the Greek NT was the translation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_original_New_Testament_theory
https://www.gotquestions.org/Aramaic-Primacy.html
https://www.torahapologetics.com/language--word-studies/aramaic-primacy-of-the-new-testament

>>19822853
Of course the churches will lmao what do the actual historians say though and how many of the apostles will know both Hebrew Greek and some other language?

>>19822853
you could make that case for the gospel of Matthew only

>Luke was Greek
>Mark was allegedly the son or an acquintance of Peter's (Roman)
>Paul wrote all his epistles in Greek
>John wrote the Revelation in Greek while exiled in the island of Patmos

>>19812520
Just use whichever your family has and don’t go into the autistic Bible translation debate Anglos are obsessed with around here. I’m reading the Biblia latinoamericana as it’s the one I got as a gift when I did my first communion. It seems ok.

>>19823033
>autistic Bible translation debate
>words aren't precise tools of expression
>other words are just as good as the correct words

>>19823033
>I’m reading the Biblia latinoamericana
I heard that's the spanish version of The Bible of Jerusalem, pretty good I must say.

Reina-Valera
Biblia latinoamericana
Biblia Torres Amat

Those three should do it.

>>19823075
Thanks man

>>19820739
Intrusive thoughts are not a sin because by definition you don't want them and don't have control over them annoying you. The biggest advice I would have for intrusive thoughts it to not try and "fight" them or get upset when they arrive but rather acknowledge that they're there and don't let them have control over you. They will eventually start losing power on their own if you don't go to the extremes of lingering on them or "running away" from them.

There's a Catholic blog relevant to scupulosity/OCD/intrusive thoughts that might be relevant:
https://scrupulousanonymous.org/about-scrupulous-anonymous/

>>19810007
To the anon who has been shilling this peshitta and syriac tradition in general, thank you. Been doing some research on Syriac lately, I just got my syriac-english peshitta and i'm really liking it, the script is very beautiful. I have never heard about syriac and syriac tradition in general before this though. why does it seem so underrated and unpopular?

>>19820739
>What is going on here?
demons attacking you
stop fapping

>>19823207
>The monthly newsletter is written primarily for individuals who need help in dealing with scrupulosity. Alphonsus Liguori, a Doctor of the Church suffered from "scruples" and feelings of religious guilt in his own life, and developed techniques for helping people with the same condition. Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuits, also struggled with scrupulosity.

That is so interesting, thanks for linking it here.

>>19823288
Ah, since you have it, can you post some significant verses in the next thread? Gonna pick Matthew 16:18, Luke 1:28, and 1 John 5:7-8 as some oft-cited verses that usually cause stirs.

>>19820285
>that the entire church, every single church across the entire world, for centuries on end, fell into the same false teaching?
They didn't.

>>19820285
Because it was corrupted with the false teaching before the schisms.

>>19823531
New

>>19823358
Another book that personally really helped me when I had this weird anxious phase last spring was When the Well Runs Dry by Thomas Green. The nominal theme of the book is prayer but it also deals with the sort of condition of abstractly understanding basic theology/prayer but wanting a more concrete spiritual experience on top of that. It's a good book for someone who compulsively "learns" dense theology but then finds themselves unable to sit down and contemplate prayer outside of the intellect.