/lit/ - Literature

Also, spambots didn't allow this to be posted in the OP

>>19801528
how is the Italian Athenaze not essentially the AG version of LLPSI?

>>19801744
dude it's obviously not haven't you read the screencapped condescending post above?

>>19801744
You can't acquire Greek using Athenaze. Unlike with LLPSI you will have to refer to a grammar book and the vocabulary list.

>>19801774
Athenaze has both a grammar included and introduced step by step in each chapter and a reference vocabulary, what are you talking about?

>>19801785
you can't learn the language solely by reading the texts was my point

>>19801810
lol, why isn't that the case of LLPSI as well then?
the structure of both is the same, both have gradual grammar introduction, both start with simple reads and end up with reasonably "regular" texts and in fact in the case of Athenaze largely unmodified excerpts of ancient authors by the time you reach the end of book two
obviously none of the two is going to make you fluent enough to be able to fluently read any ancient text you randomly jump into, but I don't think that's the point, point is that by then you should have all you need to improve your fluency by yourself, no book can supplement the heavy amount of reading you inevitably have to do

>>19801810
like 90% of it you can

is it ok to translate every now and then with llpsi if its just like one word

>>19801850
yes, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

>>19801810
it's way better than the UK Athenaze though in that respect

>>19801528
I am fluent in Esperanto, though. (I'm also not a guy.) I don't claim to offer advice specific to Greek though, just about the general principles of how to learn a language.
Sed flueparolanto de Esperanto mi ja estas. (Kaj cetere ne viro.) Mi tamen ne pretendas konsili pri la lernado pri la helena specife sed nur pri la principoj de lingvolernado ĝenerale.

>>19801850
Try to as little as you can, but yes.

>called classical language General
>just a bunch of lispis having autie fits

>>19802162
ὁ μὲν Σνῆδ πωλεῖ σῖτόν τε καὶ σπέρμα, ὁ δὲ Κάρολος...

I'm interested in starting with Greek, but I'm afraid of disrupting my Latin work. On the other hand, I know I will never truly be 'finished' learning Latin. How comfortable should I be with Latin before shifting focus to Greek?

>>19802602
seconding this, I have the same worry

>>19802243
>βαβαί

>μὲν... δὲ

>>19803047
fucking greeks and their stupid particles

How do you guys study or otherwise stay productive while at work?

Recently I’ve began writing letters down on my hand while at work from the vocabulary I’m learning so that I can simply look at each letter and be reminded of the word.

If I forget what word the letter is supposed to mean I can check at my breaks or discreetly look at my written list of vocabulary.

I’m there for 9 hours from Monday to Thursday and 6 on Friday, that’s a lot of time wasted, so any way to make some use of it is greatly appreciated.

What the hell are superlatives?

>>19803305
Adjectives or adverbs taken to the extreme. "The most high", "the most quickly", the oldest," etc

He's at it again bros

>>19803319

>>19803319
pbuh

>>19801509
Κλυθι μευ αργυροτοξε!

>>19803319
>Revising declensions? Writing sentences? What the fuck you can't learn like that!
>Ahh finally another Latin video where I can't understand anything but if I watch it for the 60th time this month I will soon be fluent.

>>19802062
>The resident Esperanto troon

How does LLPSI work in terms of language families?
I assume those whose native language is a romance language will have the easiest time but what about German? Slavic? Turkish? Chinese?
Do you think people whose native language is not an indo-european language would find it equally as helpful?

>>19803274
I work from home, so I can periodically take short breaks and do some reading.

how do you pronounce η accurately?

>>19804068
french èè (è twice the length)

>>19803274
You could make flash cards and review them on break? Or bring some things to read.

>>19803849
Yeah, and?

>>19804144
It depends on the period. In Classical Attic it was /ɛː/ originally but it changed to /e̞ː/ fairly early on, around 500 it turned into just /e̝/ (when length collapsed), then about 150 years later into /i/ (which it is now.) In a very early stage (like, pre-500 BC) it might have been /æː/.

>>19803319
This guy is so fucking weird

>>19803849
Leave him alone.

Is it possible to reach a fluency level in classic languages comparable to the fluency that people achieve in living languages?
All the latin podcasts and interviews I listen to sound like middle schoolers, even though they've been learning latin for years they're stumbling on every sentence trying to remember vocabulary. They speak with very a very forced and unnatural accent, it feels like they don't actually care about the conversation they're having but are just focussed on practicing speaking in latin.

Are they just not dedicated/practiced enough? Or is the lack of living speakers too much of an obstacle to overcome if you want to just speak like a normal person and not think about the words you're saying?

>>19805103
In my opinion, no and there's no point even trying. It doesn't matter how good you get at reading or writing Latin, the only way to become good at speaking a language is by speaking it with native speakers and they're, well, all dead. If you sent the greatest Latin scholars alive today back to ancient Rome and had them attempt to speak with locals, they'd probably be laughed at for sounding so ridiculous. The Latin speaking community is just a fun LARP and nothing more, really.

>>19805122
Wasn't Latin in active spoken use in universities and monasteries long after it was no longer a vernacular, though?

>>19805131
Yeah but even then they weren't speaking the sort of natural idiomatic Latin that was spoken by actual native Romans. They might have communicated with each other just fine but actual fluency means speaking at a native level and that was impossible then as it is now.

>>19805144
I wouldn't be surprised if the more skilled ones were.

>>19805103
Depends on individual intelligence and how much time you have actually put into speaking Latin. I think a good way to speaking is by first learning how to write in it without resorting to wiktionary or glosbe to fill in vocab/declension/conjugation gaps. This will obviously take a good deal a time. Building an active storehouse of vocabulary and grammatical structures takes longer than having passive knowledge of them.

This is a series of lectures in Latin about Roman philosophy which I enjoy. The speaker has a German accent but it goes to show that you can still speak about heady things in Latin.
http://stroh.userweb.mwn.de/scholae/vl_philosophia_wise14-15/vl_de_romanorum_studiis_philosophicis_wise14-15.html

Another guy I enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNpq2WoKtCg

If you want to listen to someone speaking in Latin with a pleasant accent, find an Italian like Rumak. Anglos have the worst accent.

>>19802602
>>19802655
If you are a beginner stick to one language
If you have a good grasp of the fundamentals of grammar and a decent vocabulary start another
This applies to learning languages in general. Starting two at the same time can be frustrating but if you spread them out and stagger them it works quite well. Latin and Greek especially are quite complimentary.
It really depends on your level but generally speaking if you have finished an introductory textbook in Latin and can read some basic texts then start the Greek textbook.

>>19801509
Greek is so fucking hard. It boggles my mind that people actually spoke this shit.

>>19805103
No
Look at the bald faggot. Look at >>19805204. Look at any Latinist speaking in Latin.
Do they sound natural? Do they speak at a normal pace? Do you think Romans Dragged every word out in every sentence?
Most videos are people reading from notes with a few basic phrases memorized. What about off the cuff casual conversations and remarks? Can they discuss philosophy that they haven't studiously prepared for? Politics? Economics? History? Can they describe their dreams, their hopes and ambitions? Can they talk about their first kiss or their favorite childhood memory? Can they have a conversation with each other about each other?
All of the above are possible with living languages. Furthermore you can learn all sorts of nuances, slang, jargon, and idioms, not just what they are but how to use them naturally and like a native speaker. No one can learn to speak by reading books, it is imperative to talk with native speakers to truly get a feel for the language.
This is not possible in Latin as it currently stands due to there being no native speakers. Speaking Latin has some advantages when learning the language, particularly in increasing the speed of reading, perfecting pronunciation and understanding meter, but in actual usage it is little more than a parlor trick.
Imagine if Wilfried Stroh gave the same lecture in German. Protip: he originally wrote it in German then translated it to Latin. Do you think it would be faster or slower? Would he be able to explain those concepts in greater or less detail? Would the audience understand it better or worse?
It is guaranteed that someone will seethe at this post because it is true.

>>19805339
What do you find difficult? Declensions and Conjugations? Finnish has those too and natives intrinsically know it. Subordinate clauses? English is rife with them and you understand them without even being aware of it. Accents? They are nowhere near as difficult as they seem at first.
Greek has a steep learning curve but it gets significantly easier once you are over the initial hump. Keep at it and don't get discouraged. Feel free to ask questions if there are any specific points you are wondering about.
Personally I find advanced Latin to generally be harder than advanced Greek for a number of reasons. One of which is the usage of articles which is immensely helpful.

>>19805363
>Most videos are people reading from notes with a few basic phrases memorized
This is just factually inaccurate. There are people who make vlogs in Latin and do mundane shit like grocery shopping while reaction to random shit happening in real time speaking Latin. Also there are podcasts where people just talk about random bullshit in the news. As for accents, I don't know why anyone would even give a fuck about replicating that. But if you just mean speak it fluently, of course you can do that.

>>19805384
Finnish is hard because the Uralic languages have autistic noun declensions. With Greek it's the verbs. Latin has 120 verb forms, Greek has like 240.

>>19805384
>I find advanced Latin to generally be harder than advanced Greek for a number of reasons
Care to elaborate? I've heard others say this too

>>19805386
Doesn't matter. It's not their native language so they'll never be truly fluent, they'll never achieve native effortlessness and naturalness. Roman 10 year olds playing in the street spoke better Latin than the most autistic classics scholar ever could.

>>19805386
the seething begins
>most videos
>most
Feel free to post the videos you think best demonstrate fluent, natural Latin. Meanwhile I'll just copy paste this since you didn't read it
>What about off the cuff casual conversations and remarks? Can they discuss philosophy that they haven't studiously prepared for? Politics? Economics? History? Can they describe their dreams, their hopes and ambitions? Can they talk about their first kiss or their favorite childhood memory? Can they have a conversation with each other about each other?
Also you neither read nor speak Latin, correct?

>>19805363
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFL3XQ2NlZs
Have sex incel. You can still talk about everyday things or academic things in Latin. Neologisms exist for a reason. As far as slang goes, yes, learning how to say the equivalent of frfr tho in Latin is very important.

>>19805401
>slow
>stuttering
>constant pauses while searching for words
>speaking about Latin
This is a perfect example. What about this says "natural" to you? Fluent? These are two Latin scholars who have spent years studying only to speak like 2nd year Spanish students.
Again, riddle me this - what would that same video have sounded like in their native language? Would it be the same speed? Would it be as broken and rocky? Would there be more or less detail? Any random European could probably have a more natural conversation in a second language.
Note that people speaking Latin inevitably speak about Latin. It is the main topic of conversation and it makes sense because there is little else to discuss with it and little reason to discuss anything else in it.

>>19805399
I've met some pretty damn fluent non-native speakers of multiple languages.

>>19805432
I should have specified that they'll never be truly fluent because there aren't any native speakers left. I mean, you don't get to call yourself fluent in a language unless a native speaker of that language says you're fluent, end of story. It's not to say you can't have fun larpy conversations in Latin but still, knowing that if a real Roman were there he would laugh at you sort of spoils the effect for me.

>>19805440
I mean, I've met Esperanto speakers who definitely come off as fluent- they speak grammatically on a wide range of topics without significant hesitation compared to in their native language. So I don't think it's impossible. (Native Esperanto speakers do exist, but only scattered here and there.)

>>19805440
so you're a schizo who dreads getting shamed by ghosts which, in turn, is leading you to dissuade others from attempting Latin in its oral form?

>>19805453
you will never be a real roman

>>19805390
Greek has more forms, yes. Those forms follow a pattern as do the Latin ones. Essentially two sets of personal endings along with thematic vowels and consonants. It seems mind-boggling at first but it really isn't so bad, just takes time to get used to especially coming from English which is quite stripped down.
Go slow and study, read a lot. Reading is hard when you're first starting out as most books don't have enough examples. Get a few different textbooks to do the exercises in them to help practice. Trust me, conjugations are the least of your problems in reading texts. Get them down pat at your own pace.
>>19805392
This is coming from the perspective of a native English speaker.
Greek and Latin have opposite learning curves.
Latin has a lot of direct cognates and relatively simple grammar at first. Conjugations are relatively few and simplistic. Word order is different yet more or less stable. Conjunctions and subordination are handled simply.
Greek has less common cognates. Conjugations and declensions heavily rely on elision and crasis - you must know how vowels interact with each other and keep it in mind. Particles are all over the place and are difficult to translate. On top of that the accent system, while not difficult in the long run, adds another layer of complexity to an already complex system.
Note that most of the above is about form. Forms of declensions and conjugations, forms of sentences. While they can be a pain to learn forms are not that difficult. Once you know them they are easy.
Cont.

>>19805450
who cares about esperanto lmfao

>>19805484
I do. Anyone who cares about equitable international communication should.

>>19805392
Cont.
Once you get into actual texts there is a drastic difference. Greek syntax is much more reliable and predictable due to articles. It isn't too hard to figure out what goes with what. Sentences flow smoothly and those particles that were so frustrating at the start provide tons of meaning and clues as to what is coming. At this point forms hardly present a problem as you know them well and that crazy amount, 240 or whatever, actually makes it easier to understand as they are quite specific and clear in meaning. Greek sentences are quite explicit in what they are saying.
On the other hand Latin quickly becomes more challenging. With no articles it can be tough to distinguish predicates from adjectives, know which word a particular noun belongs to, understand the several accusatives in a single sentence. Latin has a ton of quirks that textbooks don't always cover. Subordination is basically dumped into the subjunctive. Relative pronouns are all over the place. Infinitives pop up in unexpected places, main verbs are left out, clauses nestled within clauses nestled within clauses.
Latin is still enjoyable for me. I learned it before Greek. When I started reading authentic Greek it was shocking in how less difficult it was than I expected. This isn't to say all Greek is easy, Pindar will ensure that, but compared to Latin you come out of the elementary stages much more prepared to take on what you find.

>>19805490
dilate
you are speaking the international language right now. cope

>>19805122
>>19805363
>>19805399
>>19805423
I agree with all this but I don't think it's a reason to lose hope.
We should encourage these larpy podcasts.
If this community continues to grow, and people spend more and more time speaking latin even if just in discord groups on the internet. Over the course of like 40 years, new things like slang and common phrases will emerge and these people will get more and more natural in their latin speaking.

And if it get really big you might even see people raising their children as both english and latin speakers, and taking them to these latin speaking conventions, and that can open the door to a true revival of latin.
I hear the same has been done to Hebrew albiet for religious purposes rather than just simply an interest in an old language

>>19805534
There is nothing wrong with it as a hobby or something fun to do. Replace 'latin' with 'klingon' in your post to see why.
To claim it is natural, native or fluent is downright false.
At the very best in the scenario you described you would end with with a number of people speaking some kind of bastard pidgin Latin.

>>19805399
You seem to be moving the goalpost with the definition of "fluent". Nobody is trying to speak it perfectly. You are literally the only person who cares about "effortlessness". It's a two thousand year old language with complex conjugations and a noun declension system. We know it's hard. That's the point, it's a challenge. Calm down.

>>19805400
Dude you are weird.

No one in here said anything about "NaTuRaL lAtIn". People have said you can fluently understand and use Latin. Not that it would sound like Cicero if you heard it while blindfolded, you fucking autistic monkey.
All you seem to care about is talking rapidly like a fucking Dominican speaking Spanish with zero mistakes. Do you understand how second language fluency is graded? Have you even learned a language before?

I don't know what Latin videos you are watching where someone reads off a cue card and can only speak in disjointed phrases, but I'm not subscribed to any shit like that. There's a list go look em up on YouTube and Spotify.

Satura Lanx
Alexius Cosanus
In Foro Romano
Polymathy
Paideia Media
Sermones Raedarii
Secunda Mensa
Andreas Alkor
Auditiunculae
Litterae Christianae
Vivarium Novum
Colloquia apud Recentiores
Legio XIII
Intercapendines latiane
Greco Latino Vivo
Found in antiquity
Schola Latina

>>19805594
>you would end with with a number of people speaking some kind of bastard pidgin Latin.
This affects your life how?

I love matt easton, idk why everyone memes on his vids
If it wasn't for him I wouldn't have even considered latin as a language I could potentially learn, I always assumed it was something you spent your entire life on in order to read cicero or caesar

>>19803319
Unpopular opinion, I like the bald autist. He got me into Latin in the first place.

>>19806777
He's too weird for me. The bigger his channels get, the stranger his content becomes. I can appreciate him being an ambassador for the language, but man he is just a posterboy for why it's important to get a girl before you turn 30 and have kids before you turn 40 or else you will end up like this bozo.

>>19805967
>post the videos you think best demonstrate fluent, natural Latin.
such a simple request, yet you are incapable. let me guess, because none of the speakers are fluent or natural?

>>19805968
>There is nothing wrong with it as a hobby or something fun to do.

>>19806887
Nigger i listed fuck ton of podcasts and channels you fucking cumbrain
>Satura Lanx
>Alexius Cosanus
>In Foro Romano
>Polymathy
>Paideia Media
>Sermones Raedarii
>Secunda Mensa
>Andreas Alkor
>Auditiunculae
>Litterae Christianae
>Vivarium Novum
>Colloquia apud Recentiores
>Legio XIII
>Intercapendines latiane
>Greco Latino Vivo
>Found in antiquity
>Schola Latina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_2bwogAHQc&t=1663s
This just came out today. LIVESTREAM

>>19806887
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6M3eQOkK6s
You are a clown

>>19807113
>every third word
>eh
>em
>uh
>long pauses
>stuttering
>stumbling through simple sentences
>constantly searching for the right word between practiced set phrases
>talking about talking Latin
>the best speaker speaks with a Spanish accent and consistently has to correct herself when she starts to say Spanish words instead of Latin
wow that really shows me. Bear in mind these are not beginners but people who have spent years with the language. If this is your idea of fluent or natural speech then I genuinely feel bad for you. They sound like students of a language (poorly) attempting to communicate in it.
I reiterate, because you completely ignore my original post on the matter
>Can they discuss philosophy that they haven't studiously prepared for? Politics? Economics? History? Can they describe their dreams, their hopes and ambitions? Can they talk about their first kiss or their favorite childhood memory?
Same goes for the other video. Latinists speaking Latin about Latin. Reading a poem then talking about it, no doubt after having read copious amounts of literature about it in their native language and having prepared beforehand. See 42:00 for an example of having to think and speak off the cuff. Pauses after each word, thinking for each word, slowly, ponderously making his way through the sentence, relying on stock phrases. Good at repeating what they have laboriously studied but neither fluent nor natural.
Do you think Cicero would speak like any of those people in those videos? How about Caesar? How about any random dude living in Rome?
Why don't you post a video of yourself speaking Latin? Even a Vocaroo? Oh that's right, because you don't. What exactly are you defending again? Do you even read Latin? I do, and Greek as well, but I would never claim to be fluent in them.

>>19807327
>Do you think Cicero would speak like any of those people in those videos?
Completely misses the point. I already said before literally no one except you cares about trying to act like a Cicero clone. Fluency is the ability to express yourself in a language and understand other people when they express themselves in that language. I don't understand why you care so much about this shit. Just leave people alone to do what interests them. You sound so fucking autistic criticizing people for pausing to think about what they want to say.

>Why don't you post a video of yourself speaking Latin? Even a Vocaroo? Oh that's right, because you don't.
LOL this is literally a fucking Reddit argument. If I say something about a UFC fighter are you going to try to arm wrestle me to prove I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

You honestly sound insecure about your own skills and so you are lowering expectations by being overly critical of everyone else and saying there's nothing for anyone else to hope for beyond what you have personally been able to achieve. It's sad honestly. Just let people enjoy themselves and stop being such an incoherent lunatic. >"DO YOU EVEN LATIN BRO, LETS TAKE THIS OUTSIDE. I HAVE SEVEN THOUSAND WORDS IN MY ANKI DECK HOMIE."
lmfao touch grass my man

ranieribros...I don't feel so good...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kWEEN_BIlN8

>>19807377
You don't read or speak Latin or any classical language. Why are you in this thread?

>>19807377
>Fluency is the ability to express yourself in a language
This is not the definition of fluency, but let's go with it.
Can any of those youtubers say this in Latin without preparation:
>You honestly sound insecure about your own skills and so you are lowering expectations by being overly critical of everyone else and saying there's nothing for anyone else to hope for beyond what you have personally been able to achieve. It's sad honestly. Just let people enjoy themselves and stop being such an incoherent lunatic. >"DO YOU EVEN LATIN BRO, LETS TAKE THIS OUTSIDE. I HAVE SEVEN THOUSAND WORDS IN MY ANKI DECK HOMIE."
The answer is no. Go back and listen to their speech, read the captions, write a transcription. Notice how simple the sentences are, how halting and ugly it is compared to authentic Latin. This is because there are no native speakers from whom it can be learned. At best it is a pale imitation and an extremely limited one. There is no way they could naturally and fully express the very words you type to defend their 'fluency'.
Tell me, could any one of them respond to these prompts in Latin:
>Describe your favorite beverage
>What was your earliest childhood memory
>Compare Napoleon and Hitler
>What do you think love is
>What is your stance on the death penalty
>Who did you vote for in the last election and why
These aren't particularly difficult, in fact apart from Napoleon they are bog standard for adolescent and teenage ESL students. All those 'fluent' Latin speakers would fumble at the first few words.
I have nothing against speaking Latin, in fact I recommended it in one of my earliest posts. It just isn't possible to attain true fluency in it comparable to fluency in living languages. This is because of the lack of native speakers. Second language acquisition relies heavily on input from native speakers. That does not exist for Latin any more.

>>19807874
Nobody cares.

>>19807876
You did, enough to reply.

>>19807797
>if you don't like the movie, I'd like to see you write a better script bro
I'm learning latin right now. But I'm certainly not at a high enough level to impress a sigma male like you :(

>>19807879
I'm replying because I care about the things you care about. I replied to try to talk some sense into you. The point is that no one feels the way you feel about this in the thread and you sound like a mental patient. I'm worried about you.

>>19807880
shitty analogy. Try
>if you haven't seen the movie why are you sharing your opinion on it

>>19807886
Nice try, troon. YWNBAW

>>19807886

>>19807892
You aren't even replying to any points. Every post is just random ass ad hominems.
>troon
>you don't speak latin
>record yourself speaking latin
>prove it bro

>>19807890
You are the one who had an opinion on youtube channels I posted before you watched the videos.

>>19807876
lmao cope

>>19807377
Imagine being this upset because you got called out on your LARP

Hi bros, I’m gonna try to learn Latin. First I’m gonna read a book to brush up on English grammar (Gwynne’s Grammar) and then read Wheelock’s. Do you guys have any tips? (No I’m not going to do LLSHIT)

>>19805967
>>19807886
I don't take a side either way in this debate but I want to warn you that
>Dude you are weird.
>I'm worried about you.
>you sound like a mental patient.
>no one feels the way you feel
these are all stereotypical signs of cluster B personality disorder. Typically a person with such a disorder will feel personally threatened and undermined by the disagreement of the person they're arguing with, and vent their internal pain at feeling worthless or like they have a compromised ego by projecting it outward as gaslighting. It's a highly stereotypical behavior of narcissistic and borderline personality disorders because both of these have fragile egos and a tendency to lash out to protect them when threatened. Particularly the last quoted line, where you try to "isolate" the enemy and undermine his self-confidence, is quite stereotypical.

It's not fatal but unless you become conscious of it, it will operate underneath your consciousness while you and others chalk up your periodic outbursts to anger issues or the assumption that you're just erratic. If you do have elements of one of these conditions, sunlight is the best disinfectant. You should reflect on why you specifically go for gaslighting and isolation as weapons. It may be that beginning an internal dialogue on this will reveal that you feel threatened to an uncalled for degree in arguments and this is bound up with a few maladaptive traits like venting resentment, the desire to "punish," unnecessarily cruelty.

>>19807908
>women are LE BAD because... they just are, ok????

>>19805103
No. They are dead. The closest you can get is reading poetry, but that’s like if people thought everyday fluent speech sounded like hamlets soliloquy. Latin is highly stylized in prose and poetry. The closest we can get to actual vulgar fluency is the vulgate (which is admittedly embellished)

>>19808865
The post never called women bad though. Are you a woman or a swede by any chance?

>>19808863
it's just troon projection.

Anyone here know Old English?

>>19808860
No tips bro, sounds you like have a great plan
I suppose the best tip I have is to look for latin sentences, for example from the vulgate or cicero, and then translating them yourself
The translation you do in Wheelock is not enough but it's the best way to learn Latin
Good luck

>>19808969
old =/ classical

>>19809480
>translating

Is recommended to learn latin before greek? Or doesn't really matter

>>19809768
yes but learn what you really like

>>19809775
Thanks, care to elabore why latin first matters?

>>19805522
No, I'm speaking a national language that has been imposed by imperialism as international.

>>19809768
Latin is easier so yes.

>>19805594
I've spoken to native Esperanto speakers, their usage doesn't seem noticeably different from other fluent speakers (whose usage doesn't differ noticeably from written specifications of standard Esperanto). So not necessarily.

>>19809841
unless you are Greek yourself or know modern Greek, it's going to be a smoother experience for many reasons, if you are western your native language is probably going to have quite a few latin borrowings, the grammar isn't easy but easier than ancient greek at first, overall should have a gentler initial learning curve and you are going to meet most of the concepts that exist in ancient Greek as well
also vaster and more varied material stretching from antiquity to the modern period

>>19807874
I've met people who were definitely fluent in Esperanto by your standard; native speakers exist, but they're rare. So I hesitate to conclude it's impossible for Latin.

>>19808860
That sounds like an excellent way to learn to decipher Latin into English rather than actually understand Latin.

>>19808874
Aren't there some plays or whatever that have something approaching spoken style?

>>19808879
>You're not allowed to point out what the author obviously meant because he didn't use those exact words!

>>19808860
My only tip is to enjoy it and not feel like there's one perfect way to learn Latin, you may end up loving Wheelock's or abandoning it and trying something else, or maybe even abandoning it and trying something else only to realize you appreciate Wheelock more because the other thing sucked. The key is just to keep going.

Remember, your brain is always absorbing more than you think. Shit that seems impossible today will be muscle memory tomorrow. There's no royal road to learning Latin but there's also no esoteric secrets. Just keep going.

>If you should put even a little on a little, and should do this often, soon this too would become big.
- hesiod

>>19809565
Translating is the best way to learn Latin, you can't become fluent in a language like Latin because there are no speakers of the language and anyone who says any different is delusional

>>19809941
there are, but I would agree that their true number is smaller than many would suggest
see >>19807535
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OyhWKTmJBo

>>19809941
The principle of comprehensible input does not change because a language is dead.

>>19809975
Literally a false prophet scam

>>19809964
>si loquendum est de coca cola aut de McDonald, possumus loqui Anglice
lmaooooooooooooooooooooooo

>>19809992
The concept of comprehensible input is pretty well evidenced to my understanding.
https://eidolon.pub/teaching-latin-to-humans-4e6b489b4e17
http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2019/03/argumentum-ad-ignorantiam.html

>>19803274
If it's kosher to be on your phone, then I suggest quizlet.

>>19805151
They weren't. Medieval Latin departs greatly from Classical in more than just pronunciation.

>>19810168
Often, yes, but some more skilled writers were better at imitating classical models if they wanted to.

Same old argument in this thread. Why do you guys get so worked up about people trying to become fluent in ancient languages or conlangs like Esperanto. Why would anyone care enough to try to convince someone not to pursue something that makes them passionate? What is the unintended consequence you are saving people from?

>>19809878
Thanks lad

>>19810316
People shouldn't enjoy themselves in life

>>19810316
It's easier to shitpost your opinions and have pointless arguments than to actually learn the language and discuss literature.

>>19810462
Definitely sounds like a successful and mentally sane person with a healthy sex life and stable relationships with their family members.

>>19810561
>success
jewish spook
>healthy sex life
sex is for making children to serve god not pleasure
>mentally sane person
don't you lecture me about sanity, troon

>>19809858
Esperanto is a bastion of globalism, which is far worse than any imperialism ever.

>>19810577
What exactly do you mean by globalism? The notion that which side of an imaginary line someone was born on doesn't determine their moral worth?

>>19810607

>>19810567
>poltard
This is like at the end of a Scooby Doo episode where they unmask the monster and it's exactly who you thought it would be, but we all still act surprised anyways.

>>19810561
I was only pretending to be retarded

>>19810696
>>>/pol/

>>19810984
>muh pol boogeyman

>>19806777
>He got me into Latin in the first place.
kinda sad, really

we need a better youtuber. dude is weird and arrogant.
Also, I personally don't like his readings at all. It's nothing to do with the actual pronunciation, but rather the intonations. It sounds so unnatural and strained.
For me, it's Litterae Christianae, it just sounds way more natural. When he speaks, I feel like I'm actually listening to a speaker of the language, not Dr. Frankenstein's Latin speaker. it just flows (i.e. fluency heh). I think it probably has to do with him being brazilian or something. though being a Catholic clergyman of some sort he uses the ecclesiastical pronunciation.

>>19806831
kek and based

this guy is also a beast, speaks Latin almost faster than I can speak english
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6G6cKYCGrI

>>19811027
>It's nothing to do with the actual pronunciation, but rather the intonations. It sounds so unnatural and strained.
This so much. He makes prose sound like dramatized poetry reading. It doesn't sound natural at all.

I like Spaniards like from the In Foro Romano podcast and as for Italians, Satura Lanx is great.

>>19811048
I tried the duolingo Latin course out of curiosity and it's the same problem. Sentences like "I am drinking water" pronounced like they're reciting Virgil or something.

>>19811067
It's hilarious because American hobbyists care more about rigidly following things like vowel length and stress than actual Romance language speakers who just straight up ignore that shit. They end up overthinking it to the point that you can almost hear them timing out the syllables exactly twice as long for every macron.

Anons, Familia Romana is boring af, I'm tired of this shit, seriously tired. I was thinking about learning latin in the ancient way of fucking reading a bilingual edition with the dictionary next to my book. I remember that Marie de Gournay did this. Do you lads have any recommendation for this method in particular? Besides patience of course.

>>19811118
Just do a more grammar intensive book like Shelmerdine or Wheelock and then do annotated learner texts like Bristol or https://dcc.dickinson.edu/

Cornelius Nepos is a good first start

It will be really slow at first but this doesn't last long

>>19811118
yeah lingua latina is boring af.
I had the luxury learning Latin in school and university and then reading llpsi. Thankfully I was able to breeze through it quickly. shit's so boring.
I can't imagine learning latin out of that book.
that being said, it's still worth it as a graduate reader at the very least.

>>19811118
Tbh I am struggling with boredom rereading Familia Romana over and over.

>>19811132
>>19811135
Did you ever try the Cambridge texts? I vastly prefer them to Familia Romana and they're very substantial well into the fourth book. Sometimes I read through them just for fun.

>>19811141
I have not, I've done Wheelock and LLPSI. I stopped Wheelock halfway through because I took the comprehensible input b8 and now I regret it.

I still think reading is very important, but learning solely through reading this stupid shit about Marcus beating the fuck out of his little sister and trying to drown Quintus is tiring after a while. Also Medus is a fucking simp and I can't even root for this guy.

>>19811025
Go back to your containment board.

>>19811160
That guy single handily derailed the entire fucking thread.

>>19811155
My ex was name lydia and i think that reading llpsi unironically subconsciously made me consider the idea of dumping her.

>>19811167
>steals 90 coins
>other slave is grateful just to get 1
>blows all 90 in one day on a bitch
L

>>19811155
I agree. The main series I learned with was Cambridge and even with those, which are fairly upfront about grammar, I was frustrated by how they sometimes didn't explain it explicitly enough and I had to go to google or some supplement. But it at least does explain grammar while mixing it with well constructed texts that are long enough to get lots of practice without feeling like they go on forever. In my opinion.

My ideal book would be a balance between Cambridge and Shelmerdine, or a fusion of them. Shelmerdine is the other extreme, it's all grammar and just dumps the skeleton of the language in to your lap. But its practice texts are often adapted from somewhat difficult real Latin and I found them less useful at lower levels than the Cambridge ones. Cambridge's texts with Shelmerdine's grammar approach would be my ideal.

why do you people feel like you have to pick sides?

read lipsi, read weeock, and read camebridge

>>19811193
>>19811192
I've tried reading both LLPSI and Wheelock simultaneously, but it's just way too much fucking voab at once. I'm going to try again. I got to like chapter 16 in WL and 12 in LL.

>>19811210
Honestly most of the vocab will overlap at some point, I suspect all those books use frequency lists to construct their core vocab. None of it really matters in the long run, you should go with whatever one you can finish. You can't really do "redundant" learning here so the only risk is burn-out and quitting, not reading the wrong thing or retreading some ground. Err on the side of avoiding discouragement.

>>19809928
This is excellent advice

>>19811252
You bro. I knew this was true the whole time, but I've been spending too much time comparing myself to other people and setting unrealistic goals. I am going to read through the books and worry about drilling vocab later. You have inspired me.

>>19811118
>>19811155
>>19811192
Try Moreland and Fleischer's Latin: An Intensive Course. They kind of do the grammar dump thing as well but have a lot of practice sentences and readings after every chapter. Not a great book as a primary learning source but a good complement to something like Wheelock's.
Personally never cared for Cambridge, too many pictures and felt like a children's book. Still doesn't hurt to work through it or keep it on the side.

Quomodo vos habetis amici?

>>19811455
Fessus sum, sed volo studere noctu. Ergo studebo, quia otiosus non volo esse.

>>19811541
Otio nihil est dulcius amice

>>19811594
Te intellego et nunc victoriam sentio.

>>19807874
> Favourite beverage
VINVM


> What is your stance on the death penalty
Quicumque effuderit humanum sanguinem, fundetur sanguis illius: ad imaginem quippe Dei factus est homo.

> What do you think love is
amare est velle alicui bonum

> Who did you vote for in the last election and why
DONALDVS IOHANNES TRVMPIVS QVIA RADICATUS ET RUBRIMEDICATUS EST

>>19809909
Do you think I'm going to go to fucking ancient rome and chat up the senates? I don't need to conversationally fluent and suck it up like a vacuum.

>>19807874
JPII's entire doctoral thesis and thesis defense was in Latin.

I find doing the exercises to be too boring, I just want to read

>>19811917
I always skip the pensum, but then i feel guity

Repetitio mater memoriæ est. Carpe pilulam Dowling.

>>19805453
>schizo who dreads getting shamed by ghosts
Other people on /lit/ aren't like this?

>>19805103
yes and we do it in india with sanskrit all the time, and sanskrit is much more difficult than latin.

>>19812612
How do you guys study it?

>>19811844
>RADICATUS ET RUBRIMEDICATUS
LMAO

>>19811848
My point is that if you don't actually speak the language, you can't actually read it and understand it directly. It creates an extra layer of mental effort and difficulty.
>>19811950
You should probably do them.

>>19812612
>sanskrit is much more difficult than latin.
How so?

please tell me what this says
quinque gentium linguis

>>19814549
by/with five tongues/languages of the peoples/gentiles/gentes(the latter in the properly Roman sense e.g clans)

>>19814647
no it doesnt.
linguis is in the dative and gentium is genetive so its "five of-peoples by languages" or better "by the languages of the five peoples"

its quinque gentium linguis not gentium qunique linguis

>>19814676
linguis is also the ablative
>by the languages of the five peoples
literally what I said
>quinque gentium linguis not gentium qunique linguis
word order doesn't matter

>>19814690
but truth to be told, it could mean both by itself, quinque is not declined so it could belong both to gentium and linguis, you can't trust latin word order, context matters here

>>19814690
word order matters

>tfw got accepted onto the Classics degree I applied for

now I need to start actually learning Latin

> Simul ab Gnaeo Pompeio proconsule petit, quoniam ipse ad urbem cum imperio rei publicae causa remaneret, quos ex Cisalpina Gallia consulis sacramento rogavisset, ad signa convenire et ad se proficisci iuberet, magni interesse etiam in reliquum tempus ad opinionem Galliae existimans tantas videri Italiae facultates ut, si quid esset in bello detrimenti acceptum, non modo id brevi tempore sarciri, sed etiam maioribus augeri copiis posset.

Jesus Christ, Caesar, enough with the run on sentences.

>>19814491
More elaborated morphology with more forms, probably.

>>19815932
They have more moods, sure. They have injunctive and optative. But Latin has more moods. They also have a dual.
I don't see how any of this is makes it much more difficult.
It's different, but I'd imagine the difficulty is about the same for an English speaker to learn it.

>>19815965
>But Latin has more moods.
tenses*

>>19815965
English shares the same alphabet with Latin. With Sanskrit, the alphabet becomes another obstacle of difficulty, not to mention it has way more letters.

>>19816149
Learning an alphabet isn't difficult. Okay, if you wanna learn Egyptian or Sumerian, I'll give it to you. That'll make it more difficult. But not sanskrit.
And sanskrit uses a abugida.

Also, we're discussing the language. Not the script.

>>19816182
I feel like it's little difficult because of all the combined consonant ligatures, but still pretty easy.

>>19816201
Oh, right, not to mention that Sanskrit is written in multiple scripts even in devanagari predominates nowadays.

>Despite the West’s efforts to retain such talents, Luo is returning to China. When I asked him why, Luo told me that American students were simply less interested in their own Classics than the Chinese. “There just aren’t as many curious students in the Classics in the U.S.,” he said. “I taught at the University of Washington for over six years. I tried all kinds of stuff to keep it engaging — they just didn’t care.” Last year, by contrast, he gave a lecture in Hangzhou to a crowd of Chinese on the character of the Cyclops in Greek mythology. “I could see sparks.”

https://supchina.com/2022/01/13/china-looks-to-the-western-classics/

We're not gonna make it.

>>19811098
As a Finnish speaker it's a real feature of some languages including latin. If you ignore it you are ignoring 25% of the sound of the language

>>19815726
If you think that's bad wait til you get to Cicero

>>19817574
There's a sentence in one of the speeches against Verres that goes for like 2 pages or something. Maybe an anon here can find it.

>>19816838
I'm excited to see what can be done with classics in the West once it loses the dead weight of neurotic trannies, token minority hires, and retarded women constantly bitching about how they're unfairly kept out of things, only to begin bitching about how the thing needs to lower its standards and dilute itself to the point of vanishing once they get in the thing.

Imagine five or ten years where nobody cares, or so it seems, about classics. No visible institutional support, no grants that "consider the lived experience and diversity of the applicant," no NED thinktank astroturf money, nothing. The only reason to study the classics is because you actually love them. All the stupid women and trannies and minorities won't even be able to understand why people do still talk about them, they'll just think "but don't they know? all the grant money is gone.. there's no tenure in this.. your CV doesn't matter anymore.."

Then actual human beings will be able to talk about Latin and Greek literature again. 98% white, with only the frumpiest of autistic women. You could even have standards for entry, like, I don't know, knowing Latin and Greek.

>>19817634
yeeeah it's gonna be 1000 years of academic dark age where the classics are forgotten until some scmuck digs them up again

>>19817634
You could just study the classics outside of academia and discuss them online with other people who are actually interested in them.

Why does the sperg care so much about speaking Latin like an orator?

>>19817634
>neurotic trannies, token minority hires, and retarded women
You mean imaginary people or people nobody takes seriously?

>>19817797
Self indulgence and a lack of self awareness

>>19817797
Same reason orators do?

>>19818132
He's not an orator, he's a helicopter pilot with a useless geology degree.

>>19818132
Why is it so hard for you patroons to admit that this guy is literal pussy repellant

I've decided to digitize the exercises in both North and Hillard and Bennet's composition textbooks. Fuck backend work and tracking progress, I'm just going to focus on getting the exercises, grammar notes, and vocab into a useful format.

Two chapters down, literally hundreds to go.

https://doctor-mobius.neocities.org/latin/index.html

>>19818132
Nobody needs to orate in Latin though
>>19818174
Stop being obsessed with him

>>19818276
I was replying to a post about him. I don't bring him up, his cult members do and then people rightfully clown them for it.

>>19818174

Does Latin NEED to be a weird autism club? I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, where I hate both normies and nerds.

>>19816838
This reminds me of another article I read about how an American lit student went to China for grad study abroad and was astounded by the lack of idpol in their literary departments. He talked of how Americans writing thesis on gender or race or both would be laughed at over there kek.

>>19818337
Same here desu.
There's also a weird polical war with tradcath homeschooled cuckservatives vs woke academia twitter troons.

>>19818337
lmao I know what you mean

Latin is too normie now. I'm going to learn Akkadian

>>19816838
Xi... ego genuflecto.

>>19818377
Do Sanskrit. And if you really want to be a rebel learn Coptic or Syriac.

Is there anything similar to LLPSI, except not incredibly dull to read? I like the idea of extensive reading, but also think it would be a lot faster and simpler to have extensive reading alongside explicit grammar sections to cut out the waffle and be more efficient.

>>19818715
You play too many videogames
Reading about these bratty kids is hilarious.
Not everything needs to be action packed explosions and sword fighting

>>19818715
"Reading Latin" by Sidwell & Jones is the only other course I know that is heavy on the reading aspect. There's one book of text and then the other with the grammar separate. There's also a 3rd book which is the "independent study guide" for self-learners with answers and help on the text.

>>19818732
I don't care about the plot in my language learning book. I would just like it to skip the over-repetition of certain things and the vagueness of others, and have explicit explanations of concepts before providing examples with extensive reading in order to facilitate faster progress.

Outside of reading, I enjoy playing wargames. When I'm learning a set of rules, I find the most effective presentation of those rules is to have them broken up into manageable, concise chunks which are then followed up immediately in the text with examples of Joe rolling 2d6 to pass some test that has just been explained.

>>19818745
Anon I wish you luck, I am the same way and struggling with both Wheelock and LLPSI. Wheelock doesn't give enough reading and Orberg not enough grammar and it's frustrating. And trying to read them at the same time is overwhelming because they introduce concepts at different stages. I'm the one who recommended >>19818737 Sidwell & Jones. I hope you try it out, I have only glanced at a PDF and it looks pretty good.

>>19817634
>>19818354
this is mainly an anglophone issue. I think it kind of exists in Germany with academics who want international readership, but in my 2 years of studying philosophy and classics i have not heard a single word resembling any idpol, but mainly total ignorance of it. Seems to be more of a thing in meme anglo subjects like comparative lit and English lit.

God I'm glad I don't have to study in the *nglosphere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phiO9RXumi8

>>19819192
This is fucking unwatchable. That guy is worse than the little cunt next to him. This is insulting to black students. Poverty of low expectations.

>>19819192
Jesus christ everyone talking in this video is retarded

>>19818816
>>19819192

Anglos have always had trouble with the crowd. Every nation and people has. But it's much worse over here, especially in America. We have a critical mass of bird brain parrots and cowards, so it's easy for mass culture to become more and more noisy and shitty because there isn't enough people willing to push back

>>19801509
Is it too late to start Greek if you’re in your mid 30s?

>>19818174
I mean, I'm a girl and I wouldn't mind dating a guy like him. Granted I'm just one person though.

>>19818377
Learn Classical Chinese. Not very normie in the west, but incredibly cool.

>>19818715
>alongside explicit grammar sections
But LLPSI has exactly that, where do people get this bizarre idea it doesn't?

>>19819860
The internet is like the boat that let the rats spread the plague. American culture and it's broken English are becoming the dominant standard over just about everything beside the Arab and Han Chinese domains.

>>19818754
Wheelock has a supplementary reader

>>19819901
You might die tomorrow so you better stop wasting time asking "is it too late" and start living for today. Do what makes you happy until you can't anymore. I know too many people are trying to "reinvent themselves" in their late 50s. You might die at 40 motherfucker. Start that Greek now and love every second of the grind.

>>19819901
>too late
No such thing.

>>19819974
The grammar explanations are limited and too narrow. They don't even explain the grammar they just put names next to the example. Like "dativus" but it doesn't fucking tell you what the dative is. That's what he means.

>>19819999
You mean it doesn't explain what the dative does? Sure it does, with examples. You can't give an explicit verbal explanation in Latin of what the dative does to someone who doesn't know Latin.

>>19819901
I'm a music teacher who has beginning students in their 60s. It's never too late to learn something.

>>19819988
If you are talking about "38 Latin stories", I have it and it's like 1 tiny paragraph per chapter. It introduces too many new words per story that you need to use the dict for and then immediately forget for the next story because they are never used again. It's really inefficient. If each chapter was like 2 pages and it didn't add words that you would never see again, then maybe it would be enough.

If you are talking about "Wheelock's Latin Reader" that is a different book which is for after you finish all 40 chapters. It's not meant to be read along. It's basically like Roma Aeterna.

That guy wants a book that is like Wheelock on on page and LLPSI on the opposing page. (I do too)

>>19820010
>You can't give an explicit verbal explanation in Latin of what the dative does to someone who doesn't know Latin.
>explanation in Latin
>in Latin

THATS THE POINT. The guy I was replying to wants a book that explains the grammar IN ENGLISH like Wheelock, but has thorough reading like LLPSI.

>>19818715
>>19818737
>>19818745
There is no perfect textbook. You are best off using a variety of sources but stick with one main book to work your way through at first. Whether that be LLPSI, Wheelock's, Moreland, even Gildersleeve doesn't really matter. There is no shortcut.
>they introduce concepts at different stages
Sight reading is great for applying concepts and seeing new ones. Maybe you don't understand 100% of the sentence, what is important is what you do understand. There may be words, phrases, grammatical concepts that aren't clear or totally unknown. There is nothing wrong with that and you will be running into them for a long long time. Cement the things you do know and try to understand where the gaps are, look for patterns and bear them in mind as you learn more.
Reading ahead or past your skill level is encouraged. If a particular point is really troubling you look up the grammar involved in a reference or textbook. There is no rule saying you have to do everything in order.
See the following for easy access to a selection of textbooks. There is bound to be at least one in there that will work for you.
https://mega.nz/folder/9o4QEIIK#P3piz8Bfw-z7jgb7Q8NWDg/folder/FsJh1SiS

>>19820027
There is the Companion to Familia Romana, which does explain the new concepts chapter by chapter in a more traditional manner.

>>19820074
He doesn't want to buy a book to explain the book that he already bought.

>>19820046
What's the point of explanations in your native language? You didn't have explanations in another language when you learned your native language, and it doesn't seem very conducive to learning to interpret the language on its own terms.

>>19820101
Such terrible fate

>>19820110
>What's the point of explanations in your native language?
Is this a real person

>>19820120
My point is that you're ultimately better off without them, because it encourages you to think in Latin, and to think about Latin in Latin.

>>19820027
>That guy wants a book that is like Wheelock on on page and LLPSI on the opposing page
It would be nice but it does not exist. Make use of the available tools.
>you need to use the dict for and then immediately forget for the next story because they are never used again
Look up word frequency charts for any major Latin author. This will not be an unusual phenomenon limited only to textbooks. Also see Hapax Legomenon. A good Latin dictionary is your greatest asset.
>It's not meant to be read along
see >>19820054
There is no perfect textbook. The ones that exist, though flawed, can be utilized to learn Latin.
If you want something to read Look into the Vulgate. Try De Bello Gallico or even an interesting passage from Isidorus, that guy wrote on everything and there is bound to be something that interests you. Look at it as a way to
>practice existing grammar and vocab
>learn new grammar and vocab
>get a feel for natural Latin
There is no harm in reading ahead and it will only do you good
>>19820101
He doesn't have to, I just uploaded it to the Mega in >>19820054
Make use of the resources you have. Wishing for ones you don't will not help. Studying and reading Latin will.

>>19820134
You neither speak nor read Latin. Why are you advising other son how to learn it?

>>19820134
You are just quoting Luke R. verbatum, who is just quoting the back of the book that I'm staring at right now on my desk, but keep telling yourself that is an original thought.

It's neat if you can use the language to learn the language, but this toxic idea that using any English is "wrong" is fucking retarded. Please grow up and stop acting like this is some kind of war where you need to pick a side and argue bad positions just because you like the book. The book is fine, it's not perfect.

>>19820156
Ignore it, most likely that esperanto troon that pollutes these threads

>>19820168
He's worse than the guy who posts a picture of the Alamo once a days on /his/

>>19819901
in 5 years you'll think: "how far would I be if I started 5 years ago?"
t: never picked up the piano but I always wanted

>>19820148
I am not monolingual. I can speak from experience on the general principle of how to learn languages; Latin is a natural human language, there is nothing special about it.
>>19820156
*verbatim
And it's not absolutely wrong, but it's better if you can do without it.

>>19820301
The fact that you are correcting the most mundane 4chan typos should tell everyone all they need to know about your autistic ass

>Latin is a natural human language, there is nothing special about it.
Right because when I'm I'm Mandarin class I want my Mandarin grammar explained to me in Mandarin before I can actually speak or understand Mandarin. Yeah you are treating Latin the same as any other language.

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you, but your idea is not popular with anyone. LLPSI was written in like the 50s and it's not the standard textbook at any large reputable institution. Even Italians who teach Latin like Satura Lanx says in interviews that Orberg isn't popular even in Italy where it would make the most sense for full immersion with decent comprehension. The fact of the matter is that you have a weird personality type that gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do unnecessary hard shit. But many students get frustrated with teachers that only speak French, or Spanish, or LATIN and refuse to use English. Using more Latin will help you learn Latin, but there is a balance where you are trying to to alienate or frustrated you readers/students. You have zero empathy for people like me or the guy I was trying to help, because this is a problem you don't experience. So you just accuse everyone else of being old fashioned or not hip to the hottest new trend of pedagogy. It's childish and embarrassing.

BTW I am an LLPSI user, but I don't jerk it off to it like it's a holy relic. Also I didn't proofread this wall of text, so please find my typos for me. Thanks <3

>>19820346
>The fact that you are correcting the most mundane 4chan typos should tell everyone all they need to know about your autistic ass
It seems relevant when it's a Latinism and we're talking about Latin. You say I don't speak Latin but it doesn't look like you do either.
>Right because when I'm I'm Mandarin class I want my Mandarin grammar explained to me in Mandarin before I can actually speak or understand Mandarin.
I mean, not like how you'd explain it to someone who already speaks Mandarin, but there are perfectly good 'direct method' or 'natural method' courses that can teach languages well without reference to another language.
> The fact of the matter is that you have a weird personality type that gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do unnecessary hard shit.
I beat my head against a 'traditional' Latin textbook for some weeks before trying LLPSI and finding it easy, actually. I ended up falling off it because I started another semester at university and have classes to deal with, but I plan on doing more of it in the future. I agree that 'monolingual Latin' and 'painstakingly decipher into your native language' aren't the only two possibilities but I'd prefer to err on the side of the former than the latter.
>But many students get frustrated with teachers that only speak French, or Spanish, or LATIN and refuse to use English.
I don't think it's wrong to resort to the learner's native language if it's necessary, but it's better not to if you can. Though I'm mainly thinking from an autodidact's perspective.

>>19803319
I love this guy

>>19820110
>What's the point of explanations in your native language?
I don't understand this hardcore pro-immersion view, it seems like some people elevate it to a divine principle.

>"I've been doing Latin for two years but I'm confused, what's this?"
>"Oh, that's a really really rare form you'll only see in golden age rhetoric, it has like 5 textual attestations. This is one of those attestations where it has no other context and is really hard to get. The other four make it clearer, especially since one of them is a grammarian explaining it's a deliberate archaism. It basically means [x]."

>"I've been doing Latin for a year but I'm confused, what's this?"
>"Oh, that's a notoriously controversial turn of phrase that is either a manuscript corruption or a hapax legomenon. Based on this gloss, the two major viewpoints on it are that it's either [x] or [y], but both have problems. What do you think it is, now that you know what others have said? Any new ideas?"

>"I've been doing Latin for a year but I'm confused, what's this?"
>"Oh, that's a rare idiom for which no intuitive English grammatical equivalent exists. It basically means [x]. You just have to learn it as vocab, pretty much."

>"I've been doing Latin for a month but I'm confused, what's this?"
>"Oh, that's a future perfect in what we call a future most vivid conditional. Nah don't be scared, it only sounds complicated at first, but logically it makes perfect sense even if we don't really use an equivalent in modern English. Think about it for a second and it will make sense. Here, I'll give you a couple examples in English."

>"I'm new to learning Latin and I'm hitting a brick wall. What's this?"
>"Dude, that's the subjunctive."
>"What the fuck is a subjunctive?"
>"You never learned this from any other language class? Your native language doesn't use the subjunctive?"
>"Not that I know of."
>"Well, read this explanation in the textbook or I can explain it to you in five seconds."

None of this is incompatible with immersion or with trying to intuit the inner subtleties of the language, any more than knowing what a participle is vitiates my use of my own participle-loving native language.

Someone just uttered the word "noun". I've just shit myself and crawled to my bedroom and went under the covers. I am a lispi user.

>>19820346
do you know how ancient greeks learnt latin?

>>19803681
>>Revising declensions? Writing sentences? What the fuck you can't learn like that!
when did he advise against that? in fact, he encourages people to do the dowling method in which you're told to write all the declensions, adjectives, and verb conjugations 100 times per day for a couple of months. you're stupid.

>>19820479
Can we at least acknowledge that pure immersion fags have a lot of baggage of people who don't really know Latin but love the idea of not having to do hard work, and a good amount of people who watch channels like that are probably deluding themselves that they're "soaking up" Latin as if by magic

I mean it does work to an extent, after you learn languages for a while you can literally "feel" when something just stuck and you didn't absorb it, structures start to feel like extensions of your own thoughts rather than strange tedious puzzles you're taking apart, etc. This is all great but the debate is never focused on things like this, it's always focused on rhetorical overstatements by both sides.

Usually first by the immersion crowd, and then by people who are angry about the worst actors in the immersion crowd misleading newbies.

>>19820511
Sorry I meant, when something just stuck and you didn't do conscious work to absorb it*

>>19820511
alright, i shouldn't have called you stupid. sorry.

>>19820346
>you say I don't speak Latin
Wrong guy bud. You are mixing up replies. And I'm certainly not comparing my Latin skills to yours. I was talking about using English in grammar explanations. You mixing me up with someone else.

>but there are perfectly good 'direct method' or 'natural method' courses
Again you seem to not understand that my problem is with a one-size-fits all copy and paste method. I'm sure there are people trying this. What I'm saying is it is NOT POPULAR.

>I beat my head against a 'traditional' Latin textbook for some weeks before trying LLPSI and finding it easy, actually.
You found explicit English grammar explanations hard and so therefore no one should have them? Again, this is not a majority opinion. The problem with grammar books is that they don't provide enough reading material, NOT that they use English to explain grammar.

>I don't think it's wrong to resort to the learner's native language if it's necessary, but it's better not to if you can.
In other words you want to do as much in Latin as possible and use English as a last resort. This implies there is something wrong with it. You view English a crutch. It's not a crutch. When you start a language in the first month you can't avoid English 100% without students getting frustrated. Again, I'm so fucking happy for you if you don't get frustrated, but I don't know how many times you need to be told this - it's not popular for a reason. I'm not opposed to comprehensible input, but trying to force it as a universal all encompassing method just turns most people off.

>>19820461
I wish these people understand how ridiculous they look to everyone else. It's like the most tone-deaf cult I've seen in the language learning community for ANY language.

>long passages in Latin
Check
>introduces new grammar with numerous examples in said passage
Check
>explains the grammar in English with even more examples
Check
>has active exercises that prompts the student to use the new grammar by writing Latin sentences
Check

Bongs win again

>>19820469
I'm not an Ancient Greek and neither are you, but I'm sure the YouTuber you are quoting convinced you well and good that you can "learn like an ancient Greek" or "like a baby". You are not a Spartan or a toddler. You are an adult that has no access to a native speaker, learning a language whose only audio recordings come from larpers.

Also Greek's grammar is a mirror of Latin's. We are talking about Latin learning for people who speak English. If you think that you don't have to explain conjugations or declensions to people who speak a language that has neither, then you are waterhead.

>>19820589
>in total it costs £100 and you don't even use the ablative until the 2nd book
Ahhh yes
Meanwhile gwynnes latin is £10 and teaches you more Latin in 2 lessons than one of those books

>>19820589
People already said that.

>>19820597
>you don't even use the ablative until the 2nd book
wat

>>19820567
I'm too drunk for this shit. I just replied to myself. Above post was intended for >>19820376

>>19820597
The tortoise wins the race, not the hare.
FESTINA LENTE

>>19820609
Sorry i got it wrong
It isn't until the 4th volume you use the ablative

>>19820609
I'm not even sure if that's true but the first book is really short. Sometimes for fun I'll reread through books 1-3 and I usually get through 1 and 2 in like an hour or a couple hours of casual sight reading.

I think I said ITT above that Cambridge is ideal for the texts and overall feel, the sole and only problem I have with it is that sometimes they are a little stingy about explaining grammar, so it still leans more toward immersion. However this is nothing googling can't solve if you're the kind of person who uses /lit/ and can help yourself once in a while.

Cambridge also gives you one text and some practice examples at the beginning of each chapter prior to the actual explanation of the new grammar features so if you don't like this, in any chapter you can skip ahead a few pages to where it indicates explicitly what the "theme" of that chapter is (what new thing it's introducing).

Mad that lispis actually believe not being to use the most basic Latin is a good thing

>>19820597
All those books are in the MEGA above for free

>>19820570
Yeah
Its sad because we know from people like Donnatus they always taught Latin through grammatical study and rote writing in latin

>>19820631
>lispis literally go blind looking at a screen to take a decade to learn Latin
Sad

>>19820452
I mean, I don't think they're always bad, but I think it's better to use Latin if you can.
>>19820461
You know LLPSI discusses the grammar, right? It just does it in Latin.
>>19820567
>You found explicit English grammar explanations hard and so therefore no one should have them?
I don't know, maybe the textbook I was using was just bad.
>I'm not opposed to comprehensible input, but trying to force it as a universal all encompassing method just turns most people off.
I mean, as far as I understand the scientific evidence basically supports comprehensible input as THE way of actually acquiring (as opposed to learning about) a language.

>>19820595
>If you think that you don't have to explain conjugations or declensions to people who speak a language that has neither, then you are waterhead.
I think an English speaker can understand them by examples without needing an explanation of them in English, provided they have a little intelligence and are willing to use it.

>>19820656
>scientific evidence basically supports comprehensible input
Did you even read what I said? I didn't say anything about scientific studies saying that CI doesn't work, I said students don't enjoy it and get frustrated.

You can tell me that your product is objectively better and you have data to prove it but you cannot sell it to people, then you will go broke. You can have the cure for cancer if no one wants to take it, then it doesn't really matter if it works, now does it?

My point is that CI works, but you will NEVER achieve mass adoption in credible institutions if you force the method too hard and cause people to abandon their classes and ditch the textbook.. Language learning is about helping people, not always being right and bragging about your statistics that say your method is better. You method turns people off and you guys are terrible salesmen.

>>19820664
>I think an English speaker can understand them by examples without needing an explanation of them in English
You have clearly never participated in a group environment of monolingual English speakers trying to learn Spanish - the easiest language for an English speaker to learn, with conjugations that pale in comparison to Latin or Greek, and with no declensions.

Again you seem to not understand what people struggle with outside of your own self study experience and rave reviews from Reddit.

>but the science!
I do not care.
Stop being an utter toad and just get a decent book

>>19820656
>I mean, as far as I understand the scientific evidence
So you don't have any data. You are just quoting YouTubers
>"THE DATA SHOWS IT WORKS, CLICK MY PATREON"

lmfao

>>19820697
can't speak for anyone else but i thoroughly enjoyed LLPSI. i went into it as a skeptic btw. my friend recommended it to me and told me that i'd be able to read latin if i finish the whole book and he was right. i can read basic latin and understand everything, so it worked.

>>19820728
My dude, I have the book. I use the book. I read the book everyday. I don't hate the book.

I'm arguing with these clowns who have never stepped foot in a language learning class and have no idea how people learn. All I've been trying to explain why book is not getting mass adoption and why if you are going to use the book you should combine it with a grammar in English.

This is the problem with LLPSI fans, they think if you give the book 8/10 stars you must think it's garbage and prefer to learn Latin like it's 1852 and write forms over and over on a chalkboard like the Another Brick in the Wall video. It's honestly embarrassing that the fans of this book can't have an honest discussion about its flaws without blatantly misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) the opposing position. Half the time you guys are arguing against people who use the fucking book without even realizing it!

I know you haven't said anything extreme, but just in general. Most of the time these arguments happen because the rest of us blow a fucking gasket when we hear some of you just quote other people on the internet word for word without thinking for yourself or considering that what you were told might be biased in some way.

Wanna know a great example. Most of the people who bought the book because Luke R. told them to have no idea that he living in Naples and studied Italian there for like 7 years before he ever touched the Latin language. Kinda fucking important if you used that book without any English and understood everything like he promotes. 90% of his fans don't know this at all. I didn't know until I saw some obscure interview he did on a smaller YT channel.

>>19820774
>why if you are going to use the book you should combine it with a grammar in English.
i agree. i had to look up gerunds, gerundives and the subjunctive mood because i couldn't make sense of them on my own just with LLPSI alone. latintutorial's videos on youtube are good for that.

>>19820793
It's a childish thing to try to argue against a simple piece of advice like this as if it's somehow "cheating" or unreasonable.

>>19820717
If your definition of 'decent' doesn't include 'supported by evidence' I'm not sure what to say.

You fags are wasting so much time that you could be using to STUDY. Omg, no wonder no one here is fluent.

>>19820820
>supported by evidence
We are all still waiting for your amazing data. It's easy to say any hairbrained theory and then follow with "according to the science". Show us something bitch.

>>19820829
Literally just Google 'comprehensible input'.

>>19820841
>just google
No, you fucking knobhead. You just wasted everyone's fucking time saying "i have science, i have science!" and then you pussy out and say "uhhh just look it up man". Fuck off.

Show me ANYTHING that says grammar explanations in one's native language are bad. That's all I've argued against in every single goddamn post I made.

>>19820841
>lazy appeal to google
Funny how once it gets hard to defend your position and you run out of pre-made quotes from Reddit and YouTube, you guys abandon ship like rats.

Combine your graded readers with a grammar. This is not controversial and hasn't been for two millennia.

I assure you that some bald geologist with no degree in linguistics or second language acquisition whatsoever is not a good source. Grow up already. You guys are an embarrassment. He's like your Jordan Peterson. He reads books so you don't have to and you can just quote him when you don't know what to say.

Has anyone used Oxford Latin Course?
Is it as bad as it looks?

>>19820937
Carla Hurt (Found in Antiquity) who teaches Latin in Australia used to use it. She teaches middle schoolers, and I've also heard from other people that even though it's says Oxford, it's actually intended for like 13 year olds.

>>19820949
Yeah, unfortunately my uni uses it for Latin which is weird because our AG textbook (Grekisk läsebok för nybörjare) is really brutal.

>>19820981
Really? That's super weird. Even at the High School level that book probably should be used. I think it's supposedly like a kiddie version of the Cambridge Latin Course - at least in structure. But I've never used it so I'm not sure.

this guy literally lives rent free in the heads of Peloponnesian Turks

>>19821021
>like a kiddie version of the Cambridge Latin Course
not sure how you can get much worse really
mad people actually use stuff like that

>>19805363
shut up chud

>>19805399
dumbass

>>19806831
fakecel alert

>>19807908
kek I need to see the full thread

>>19808860
dont knock it till you try it

>>19810607
dumb liberal faggot

>>19811027
luke smith is the best

>dude is weird and arrogant
how

>>19811132
yeah no shit llpsi was boring for you it's because you already knew latin retard. llpsi is written like a childrens book for a reason

>>19811155
the only interesting chapter is when they're debating the ethics of punishing slaves other than that its boring

>>19811172
>she later finds out you stole it
>she spergs out
medus is a basedjak

I’m learning the Vulgate starting with the New Testament and I’m halfway through Ch.6 of Matthew. So far 450 words and lots of fun since it’s fairly simple Latin. It’ll probably take me a year or so but I’ll let you guys know when I’m done. I’m learning Latin for the sole purpose of reading the Vulgate. I got to Ch.15 of LLPSI but decided I had enough grammar to go off of to branch to my goal.

>>19820346
>LLPSI was written in like the 50s and it's not the standard textbook at any large reputable institution
who cares about your zog institutions

>>19821641
>I’m learning Latin for the sole purpose of reading the Vulgate

>>19820612
>he drinks the zog juice

>>19820616
the absolute state of bongs

new bread >>19821810
new bread >>19821810
new bread >>19821810
new bread >>19821810

>>19821380
Honestly, Erasmian pronunciation bothers me aesthetically, not because I don't think Greek sounded different in the past- I agree it did- but because we now know that his reconstruction is wrong on some significant details (e.g. he didn't realize φθχ were originally aspirated and not fricatives, he didn't realize most instances of ει were never actually diphthongs, etc). I'd rather use either modern pronunciation, or an actual reconstructed pronunciation using modern linguistic understanding.

>>19821674
People with "zog" in their vocabulary don't read, so why are you even here?