/lit/ - Literature

>>19785650
The best time to leave Satanic Babylonian pagan Catholicism or "Orthodoxy™" is immediately after joining them. The second best time is now.

What about hedonism though?

>>19785650
I'm in RCIA now, set to be baptised this Easter if I go through with it. I don't know if I will though; I keep having these doubts about religion. I go to mass every week and pray, but sometimes I just think it's all a little bit absurd. I wish God would give me a supernatural sign and just put any doubt out of my mind, because sometimes it feels like there's nothing there.

>>19785680
The religious life can sometimes be desolate, many fathers have written on this, seek them out.

>>19785680
Walk by faith, not by sight, regardless of "signs". They will come.

>>19785690
>>19785702
It's just hard to accept. All the prayer and petitioning that we have to do and we get no tangible response.
And then you read about pre-Nicea Christianity, how disorganised and disunited it was. A majority of Christians were Arians who denied the Trinity. The Emperor Constantine wanted religious unity so he called a Council which dogmatised Trinitarianism, and ruthlessly persecuted all those who refused to go along with it. I thought Protestants were stupid when they said "Constantine created the Catholic Church", but from what I've read about Nicea it seems unironically true.

>>19785650
Reminder that most Eastern Orthodox priests are KGB agents or were at one time puppets of the KGB.
Reminder that Vatican II and the new ecclesiology resulting therefrom was a consequence of attempting to defeat soviet communism and guarantee the safety of Catholic religious in Eastern Europe at the time.
Reminder that the Ortholarb psy-op of today is happening in tandem with the anti-West psy-op, and not by accident.
Reminder that every Ortholarber not only relishes in the destruction of the West, but is by all indications a promoter of it, and the more the West decays the more the Ortholarber (almost like a KGB puppet would) is filled with glee. One has to imagine that the last thing that an Ortholarber desires is a Western World that has come back to its senses; the Ortholarber desires us to suffer for the sake of his delusions about beard-wearing and icooons.
Reminder that the USSR NEVER went away, but only went underground and is today re-asserting itself through both Putin and the negligence of the Boomer, senile elites of the West. Once the Boomers are done with, Russia will be dealt with just as much as the degenerates parading all around our nations as we speak.
The Ortholarb Churches are not allies, but enemies.
The Ortholarbers are not good, but evil.
The Ortholarb religion is not Christian, but heresy.
This will become more obvious as the new generation of Westerners comes of age and re-asserts its dominance in the world -- and a world under threat by a resurgent Eastern Communism, no less despicable than Ortholarby.
Ortholarbers, we see your bullshit. Expect retribution, motherfuckers. The Boomers gave you Vatican II and you gave them Putin. Now, you will get only a boot and the dirt that you will be forced to eat by its weight on your neck. When the Boomers go, so will your shit-eating grins. Enjoy the West's humiliation while it lasts. When the younger generations gets our turn, we will show you the same tolerance as we show to the degenerates. Expect us, faggots. You will see us in your nightmares, for now.

>>19785820
I don't get the harsh feelings between Catholics and Orthodox. You both believe the same thing basically. The issues that you fight about are so tiny and irrelevant for an outside observer. From what I've read the schism didn't even happen in 1054: Catholics and Orthodox were sharing communion all the way into the 1700s. It was only the higher-ups that took note of the schism. Even today Catholics and Orthodox in the Middle East share communion with each other. I don't get why the relations are so harsh.

>>19785786
Christianity is not Catholicism. There are some legitimate Christians who are Catholics and there are some who are not. Being Christian isn't an earthly institution. There are many doctrinal matters that are not critical to being Christian but are treated as such by many "Christians". Live your life authentically by faith regardless of "proofs" and the tangible responses will come, but you cannot impose your own presuppositions on how they should come and what form they should take. Pre-Nicea Christianity was just fine without being organized and united as an earthly institution. All of the most critical organization and unity is invisible. Despite these things, key people within Catholicism served critical roles in keeping the vine of Christianity alive through the ages, Romans 8:28.

>>19785786
Oh, and pray only to God.

>>19785650
Can you stop trying to turn this into Catholic general?

>>19785942
You can also ask Mary to pray for you, ect ect. Dont listen to these fools who boil Christianity down to feel goodery hippy bullshit like protestants, lies upon lies.

>>19785950
Protestantism is just absurd. They expect us to believe that the Church was dormant for 1500 years until Martin Luther came and restored it. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is also patently absurd: without an infallible Church you wouldn't have a canon of scripture in the first place. Seriously, how do you expect a bunch of fallible men -- heretics, according to you -- to put together an infallible list of books that you call the Scriptures. Were there not something like 200 texts vying for a place in the New Testament canon? How would we possibly know which ones are inspired by God if God did not leave us with a teaching authority to guide us in these matters?

>>19785820
You're dumb larper too, but at least Catholics have a Catholic city as their seat while the Orthodox lost theirs to Muslims. That's worth something.

>>19785959
Weird how that's not at all what Christ taught when He taught us how to pray. Weird how Christ blasted taking "tradition" over Scripture and Caths/Orths wound up becoming the champs of doing just that. Weird how Christ was ranting about religious leaders and specified not to call men by the title of "Father". F___ off, Satan.

>>19785974
>Let me tell you what you believe.

>>19785988
>>19785997
The New Testament canon is itself a product of the Church's tradition. You as fallible human beings have no way of determining which books are inspired by God and which ones aren't.

It's very important to realize that institutional Christianity being so corrupted does nothing to diminish the legitimacy of actual Christianity. There is not one "denomination", no matter how old or new, that is the one true church, nor one that doesn't hold some legitimate Christians within its ranks. Christ sends each member of His body to where He wants them to be for reasons and purposes that are far beyond our comprehensions. Some of our most powerful enemies are our own presuppositions.

I tried the Orthodoxy meme but no amount of mental gymnastics and pilpul could convince me that icons weren’t idols and that one should be praying to saints and Mary. Especially when one sees it in practice. When people come into an Orthodox church they go about and practically bow before the idols, cross themselves, and kiss them one after another.

>>19786010
Wrong, it's a product of the LORD God Almighty working through specific members of His body and was done before there was an institutional "Church™".

>>19786069
How do you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired by God and not the Gospel of Thomas? How do you know that 2nd Epistle of Peter is inspired by God and not, like modern liberal scholars say, a later forgery? You can't answer these questions as a Protestant. You borrowed your canon of Scripture from the Catholic Church -- a heretical organisation, according to you.

>>19786069
This is such a brutal cope, can you imagine actually thinking this. Keep praying with the book the CATHOLIC CHURCH MADE BY JESUS CHRIST gave you, you warlock piece of garbage. Heretic.

>>19786105
>How do you know
It's as plainly obvious as can be to anyone reading with the Spirit. 2 Peter is crucial, no wonder Satan attacks it. The Catholic "Church™" even knows that the Gospel of James is not Scripture, yet they still used it as the initial foundation for their "Mary" (Ishtar) worship "Tradition™".
>>19786165
>takes credit for the works of God
>calls other heretic

>>19786210
Yeah it's plain to a Jehova's witness and Mormon that he's got the Holy Spirit as well. It's plain to a Muslim that God is guiding him in the right path. Anyone can say this shit.

>>19786165
Look at how you're behaving in defense of a "Church™" that is blatantly unbiblical and antiChrist. It would seem you are particularly vulnerable to the effects of praying to demons. The voice of Legion speaks through (You).

>everyone i disagree with is a DEMON

>>19786238
>the disagreeing is what the comment is referring to

>>19786251
Not very loving of you to mock a child of God

Anyone seen the flurry of news releases on Pope Benedict XVI since yesterday evening? He knew and did nothing. He lied and was there, busted by the recorded minutes.

You guys would turn the Apostles themselves away from Christianity. It's appalling to see all this shit-flinging.

>>19786231
I am praying for you, heretic.

>>19786292
its literally always protestants, the devil works through them to rend apart Christ's Holy Church.

>>19786364
>disregards Christ's direct words
>Christ's Holy Church

>>19785950
>bathe their heads in blood
this doesn't seem very Christian of this gentleman.

Responding to the previous thread:
>>19783543
>it means God gives you faith. you are saved BY the faith god gives you. that doesnt mean that boom, you think jesus is real, you're "saved". it means that through the process god establishes bringing you closer to him, through *that* process, you're saved. faith v. works is a false dichotomy thought up in the protestant era
This explanation does not hold. Again I am asking you to explain Eph. 2:8-9. I will quote it again:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

The dichotomy of faith and works is present there. You are saved through faith, and it is not of works. I agree with you that faith is not a work as it is given to us by God, but by claiming that "not of works" is simply referring to faith, you wreak further nonsense on the verse. You are saying that it means, "you are saved by faith, which is not a work, so that you may not boast, but then you are saved through other works, in which you can boast." Again, if the point is that we may not boast in works, it means that works are not involved, any type of work, both good works and works of the Law, because man could boast in either. That is his point, that our salvation is wholly of God. Now before you respond please read how I clarify this:

In Reformed theology we acknowledge that "saved" can be used in two ways, in the broader sense encompassing the entire process, which would include our sanctification. In this sense, in our growing in closeness and conformity to God, good works are part of our salivation. They are a necessary fruit of faith in Christ. But there is a narrower sense in which it refers specifically to our justification, whereby we are made right with God. In this there are no works involved. Our works do not make us right with God, Christ does. So when Paul says that we are not saved by works, that is what he means, that works are not part of our justification. This is the only way to make sense of Paul's words. If he were referring to salvation as a whole, then we could boast in works, but since we cannot boast in works, he refers to our justification.

Rom. 3:23-25 ... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

>>19786410
I'm Protestant and agree, assuming it is a legitimate quote. Either way it doesn't even matter because I do not make idols of men. God and God alone determines/knows who is/isn't a saint. God uses broken humans to carry out various aspects of His will. I am grateful that Martin Luther was suitable enough for the task of freeing Christianity from the incredibly corrupt, Satanic, Babylonian institution of Catholicism, and that's it. I pray for God's mercy on his flaws and failures same as I do for everyone else and myself.

Catholics and Orthodoxy should be working together by refuting Judaism in the 21st Century. Why aren’t teaming up to rebuke the Christ Killers themselves?

>get Hebrew OT
>dinged corner
Take 2.

>>19786545
God's way of telling you that all you need is the KJB.

>>19785974
>Protestantism is just absurd. They expect us to believe that the Church was dormant for 1500 years until Martin Luther came and restored it.
We do not hold that the church was dormant. We (Reformed) are the inheritors of the theological tradition up to the point of the Reformation. The work of the Reformation was to purge that tradition of the false accretions it had accumulated over the centuries. Ideally this would have been done without creating disunity, but such an outcome was not possible, and one must stand for the truth of the Gospel whatever it costs.
>The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is also patently absurd: without an infallible Church you wouldn't have a canon of scripture in the first place. Seriously, how do you expect a bunch of fallible men -- heretics, according to you -- to put together an infallible list of books that you call the Scriptures. ...
There was no "infallible" ruling on the canon in Catholicism until the council of Trent in the 1500s, and yet the church could still recognize it through faith. The thing you are looking for, an infallible teaching authority, simply does not exist. The only infallible thing we possess is the Scriptures, which are breathed out by God. There is nothing else in this world that is "God-breathed" (θεόπνευστος, 2 Tim. 3:16). Thus the Scriptures are the ultimate rule of faith.

I would rather not get into a protracted argument and say this to clarify the Reformed position. If you desire it though, I won't be able to respond for a while as I have work soon.

>>19785974
>The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is also patently absurd: without an infallible Church you wouldn't have a canon of scripture in the first place
>t. hasn't read the Bible
Josiah restored proper worship from finding the Scriptures in the neglected temple during refurbishing after a period of falling away.

>>19786599
2 Kings 22:8,10-13
And Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the Lord.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it. ... Then Shaphan the secretary told the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it before the king. When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Micaiah, and Shaphan the secretary, and Asaiah the king's servant, saying, “Go, inquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found. For great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.”

>>19786539
Im a Catholic and I can tell you its because a of mix of shit people in the Church at the moment and vile kike loving protestants, evangelicals fuel the love for jews in the USA, everyone knows that. In a couple generations the ruling class of the current Church will have been eaten by the youth who wish to reinvigorate Christ's Institution. Then we will probably see more connections to Orthodoxy.

I need some advice please, brothers.

I’ve been reading up on Christianity and have decided it’s the right path for me…I’m just having a hard time finding the right denomination. I’m English and went to my first Catholic mass the other day and was so nervous about it and I somehow felt worse about it all when I’d left. I’d like to worship on my own in solace but I’m not sure how viable that would be, I feel you’d need community and to share with others, right? Although I think it was Tolstoy that said the Kingdom of God could be found within yourself…
TLDR; New Christian has issues with denominations

>>19786666
Ask about the RCIA and go to the first class, that's how I did it. Eventually after a few weeks you will know some of your peers and will be introduced around at mass.

>>19785680
I was baptized last Easter and I had the same doubts until one day before my baptism. Mind you, I lived quite degenerate in the months before and after my baptism, but I always remembered that it is the right choice according to the time before I became degenerate. Even though I didn't believe it really, I still wanted to be baptized and not call it off. And I don't regret it on iota. Maybe that my faith should've been stronger during this time, but during and after my baptism God showed me this is the right choice. There was no ecstatic or euphoric feeling behind it, only a sense of peace and purity.

If you hadn't had these doubts about the validity and historicity of the Church before, then it is the Devil tempting you. Be rest assured that the demonic attacks will increase the closer you come to baptism; February and March will feel like hell.

>>19785650
watch this if you want to be 100% sure of going to heaven /lit/. the real gospel gives you full assurance of your salvation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpOv_kvk4M8

>>19786719
Welcome to the Church.

>>19786719
Welcome, stories like yours make me feel so warm. Praise be Jesus Christ.

How do one reconnect with the Catholic Church? I haven't been to a mass/confessed in 10 years. Am I still considered a Christian?

>>19786587
>We (Reformed) are the inheritors of the theological tradition up to the point of the Reformation.
None of the Church fathers resemble you. None of the Apostolic Churches -- Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Oriental Orthodox -- resemble you. You came into existence in the 1500s. Sola fide, sola scriptura, denial of baptismal regeneration, denial of the Eucharist, denial of the visible Church; all of these are novelties.
>Ideally this would have been done without creating disunity
It was done. The true Reformation was the Council of Trent.
>The only infallible thing we possess is the Scriptures, which are breathed out by God.
You don't possess the scriptures because you have no way of knowing which books are inspired by God. You don't know whether you've got all the books that God inspired, or whether you've left some out. You don't even know if the ones that you've got are imposters, not actually inspired. You simply have no way of knowing it because you don't believe in an infallible Church.

>>19786797
Compile a list of all the sins you can recall over the last 10 years, go to confession, and then go to mass.

>>19786666
Do not be so concerned with "denomination". What's important is people who make up the specific instance of ekklesia. Let God lead you to the ekklesia that He wants you to be a part of. Try many of them if needed, and do not allow the denominations on the signs automatically stop you from experiencing that place directly for yourself.

God wants people who worship in spirit and truth, which to some degree transcends "denomination" and "building". He told the Samaritan woman this. He also tells the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were/are a heretical sect of Jew. The Levites hold "correct doctrine", yet Jesus considered the "Good Samaritan" to be His true follower.

I would never suggest Methodist as "the right denomination" yet I grew up in a Methodist church that was a great ekklesia, on the whole. There are several true saints there. Some of them I did not realize until decades later. During my teen years I became very critical because I'd been reading the Bible and finding flaws. I now deeply regret my attitude for an extended era, but as I matured in spirit I learned to see more of it for what it truly was.

I learned to value the humility and earnest seeking to follow Christ despite most of them being pretty "simple minded" people. They did not have heads full of "high concepts" and grand symbolic insights. I myself "needed" those things, sought them, and built them over time, but the intellectual level is not where God gets served nearly as much as where the boots meet the ground. The intellect can certainly enhance that, but it can also greatly hinder. The hearts are where the real work gets done.

I've been feeling awful for the past week, like a big void. My rosary broke yesterday too, and I've put it together again with wire. It looks like a sorry thing that won't keep together until Spring. I couldn't go to Church for the past two weeks and I think I'm drifting away. I do not feel in touch with Scripture, and praying is just going over the words. I've had to bathe in mundane filth on the daily and it got under my skin and poisoned me completely. But if I can't be a Christian unless I'm attending Church or in my bubble at home I'm not much of a Christian at all. I wish I could talk to the people I met there about these things but all relationships seemed to boil down to social media groups, and there's that air of semi-public formality that makes it impossible to have a real contact. I'm having a very annoying health issue on top of this that is draining me completely. I'm thinking I'll just weather it through and keep doing everything regularly even if it's just going through the motions, but I don't see myself lasting very long.
When you have a big wave of disillusionment wash over you it's difficult to find answers anywhere because it's as if you forgot how to read.

>>19786961
>and there's that air of semi-public formality that makes it impossible to have a real contact
Well put. This is what didn’t sit right with me when I went to mass the first time. It felt like I just couldn’t have a real conversation with anyone there, sadly.

>>19785662
fpwp

>Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964 “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
What do Christian anons think about this?

>>19785856
It's not harsh outside the internet. It's just Tw*tter LARPers who make a mountain out of a molehill, the only thing that site ever does.

>>19787040
It's a hard sentence to swallow but you have to read Vatican II in full to see that it's not as bad as the quotemines make it seem. It affirms multiple times that Christ is the only way to salvation, that only the Catholic Church holds the true religion, and that all other faiths are defective. But this sentence says Muslims are "included in the plan of salvation" so I'm not sure. Maybe it's referring only to some Muslims? I'm sure God will not send an Afghani farmer to hell because he happened to grow up in the wrong religion through no fault of his own.

>>19787052
I don't think it's bad at all as a Muslim. The language makes it seem like they think very highly of Islam though.

>The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.

>Then [we refer] to the adorers of God according to the conception of monotheism, the Muslim religion especially, deserving of our admiration for all that is true and good in their worship of God.

>>19787081
The problem is that these statements (which I do not believe are in the Council documents themselves) are too ecumenical. In truth Christians and Muslims will never be able to reconcile. Muslims deny the deity of Christ, which is a dogma of utmost importance in the Christian religion. Whether or not Islam has some true elements is kind of irrelevant.

>>19786281
Link?

>>19786539
Judaism isn't the most important thing to fight against in these days. At least Jews believe in God and have points in common with Christians.
The same can't be said for today's atheists, liberal secular humanists, and hedonists, people whose concept of an objective truth or morality is not even recognizably similar to ours.

I don't know how anyone can be Catholic with all the child sexual abuse going on. The Catholic Church needs to let priests marry ASAP.

>>19787147
>I don't know how anyone can be part of Christ's Church with all the sin that fallible men do.
You're right, m8. Looks like atheism it is.

>>19786961
Perhaps praying to "Mary" is damaging your spirit. Discard the "rosary" and pray only to God.

>>19787116
There are tons of them, I wouldn't want to post one and have the source criticized, just go to Google News and search him.

>>19787109
The first paragraph is in the document (see this link number 3):
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
The second paragraph is from an encyclical of Paul VI, number 107:
https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_06081964_ecclesiam.html
I'm not in the mood to start a debate, but Muslims worship the One God, which Christians are supposed to worship as well. May I ask if you're a Catholic? Do you think these ecumenical sentiments of the Church ought to be dismissed?

Any other military anons here?
I've been having a hard time attending liturgy or other services regularly, or connecting with people in my parish, due to my work schedule. I'll be gone for training for at least 4 or 5 months out of this year, and I can't predict my schedule well enough to be able to go to weekday services very often. I have almost every weekend off, but by the time I get there I feel so tired that I spend the whole thing being lazy and catching up on sleep instead of doing anything.
Any advice?

>>19787161
The clergy clearly don't even believe in Christianity if they're tolerating and committing child rape en masse. Just let priests get married and maybe they'll stop.

>>19787184
We can't just dismiss them because they come from an ecumenical council. I don't believe Christians and Muslims should have rivalry and war like we did in the past. But I don't think either of us wants to compromise our beliefs in order to promote religious tolerance. There's a right way to do ecumenism, promote world peace, and so on. But we can't ignore our differences.

>>19787133
>Judaism isn't the most important thing to fight against in these days.
Bruh, cheating God is a hallmark of Judaism and is the first clue to the fact that it is not a theologically legitimate religion. They have for example automatic electrical appliances like plates that stay hot for the entire shabbat allowing them to cook or elevators that always travel between floors without them having to press a button. So technically they are not using electricity during shabbat. Isn’t that just the most absurd and silly thing ever? Would you ever act in this kind of disrespect towards your God? It’s offensive.
>Atheist
So secular Jewish figure heads like Dawkins? who still have a huge hard on for dismantling Christianity even if he doesn’t go to the synagogue?

>>19787205
For what it's worth, Christians, being People of the Book, are a protected class in Islamic jurisprudence. Tolerance of other monotheist groups is a part of the law.

I literally have 9 more of these, but this should be sufficient in making the point. Search it.

>>19787227
What about the Jizyah?

>>19787208
>So secular Jewish figure heads like Dawkins
When was the last time Dawkins was relevant? 2005?
When I talk about 'atheists,' I mean the common, secular people of this era, people for whom money, status, pleasure, societal position, and entertainment are the goals of life. Not tied to any one ideology, but united by their shared lack of belief in anything beyond the material and the physical, these people make up, if not a majority, a plurality of the population among young people, and their numbers are only increasing.
Yes, modern Judaism is silly and legalistic, but should they be the number one priority right now when the average young person in a first-world country sees religion as a whole as outdated?

>>19787224
>>19787228
>>19787239
Reminder that the Catholic Church has less (or similar) numbers of sexual abuse cases than public schools or boy scouts. The media love to focus on the Church though because it's an impediment to their New World Order. It's also literally a multi-million dollar industry to sue the Catholic Church over alleged abuse cases.

>>19785650
Not a Cath but I like Sheen.

>>19787250
What about it? You don't pay taxes to your secular government? Why shouldn't an Islamic government pay taxes? Keep in mind Muslims are required to pay taxes too, but its name is different.

>>19787208
>Isn’t that just the most absurd and silly thing ever?
Almost like god sacrificing himself... to himself... so you aren't guilty of sinning against him anymore... hmmm. I mean isn't that just the most absurd and silly thing ever?

>>19787288
>pay taxes
require*

>>19787271
Reminder that the Catholic "Church™" shuffled known abusers around to different parishes and tried to cover everything up and it goes to the very highest levels being complicit. BTW, even in my little rural area back in the 80s the Catholic priest was caught in bed with another man and was moved to a larger city. He only recently retired with celebrations for him at the big city "church".

>>19786781
>>19786786
Thank you, anons. God be with you.

>>19787239
Why do you have 9 of them? They're all the same story.

>>19787271
>we're no better than public schools or boy scouts

>>19787271
Sorry anon but >>19787305 is fact. Priests who were in hot waters would get shuffled. You have papers about this. The issue is not that Catholic priests should get married, but that the whole institution is massively corrupt.

>>19787305
The Church wanted to discipline these priests on her own. When that project failed, St. Pope John Paul II made it mandatory for all accused priests to be turned in to the police.

>>19787328
Every institution shuffled priests in the exact same way because that was the state of psychiatry in the 60's and 70's. That's the true evil the church let in.

>>19787341
>Every institution shuffled priests
Shuffled pedophiles, that is.

>>19786961
>and there's that air of semi-public formality that makes it impossible to have a real contact
That's one reason why I haven't been to Mass in weeks and I feel closer to God than before. Sometimes the collective evil presence can drag you down. This intense self-hatred you describe is coming from being too rule-abiding which destroys your ability to reason. Seen many such case, including myself.

Get a grip, touch grass and start to discern properly.

>>19787340
>"Priest diddles little boys and ruins their lives
>let's experiment with moving the "priests" around and putting other little boys at risk
>When their cover ups were blown, """St."""" Pope John Paul II did the most logical PR move

>>19787257
>When was the last time Dawkins was relevant
Your missing the point bruv, hes one of those militant atheists your crying about, but yet he’s not important??? plus people like him call themselves Jews anyways because of the cultural attitudes of the diaspora (namely the conflict with gentiles which creates a “reactionary” Jewish identity, you never see these types, if rarely attacking Judaism because it’s a scientific religion)

> but should they be the number one priority right now when the average young person in a first-world country sees religion as a whole as outdated?
You aim at the throat by the ones dismantling and debunking the ones who are making a mockery of your religion and funding it’s demise, Jews.

>>19787257
How can you say Dawkins isn’t relevant but yet also say “Wahhh why aren’t people being wholesome chungus christarinos!”

>>19787360
No. The Church saw it fit to discipline priests themselves because they naturally supposed that all matters involving priests are under their jurisdiction. This clearly failed, so the next logical step was taken by St. John Paul II.

>>19785662
no trolling outside of /b/ thank you

>>19785680
based convert. if you're waiting for a sign you're gonna be waiting a long time. he does things at his speed not yours. Catholicism is not about having your expectations met but rather learning the faith and relying on God to strengthen your faith and (if you're lucky) conforming yourself to Jesus Christ. in simplest terms you do this by obeying the greatest commandments. neither of which says wait for a sign.

>>19787389
>the Kool-Aid
>>19787394
>actual truth
>trolling
Come out of her that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues. Pray only to God.

>>19787052
This is an untraditional belief. Nobody is saved outside the Catholic Church, nobody. Not Orthodox, not Protestant, sure as hell no Muslim or Jew, let alone those neopagan freaks. The first circle of Hell is reserved for everybody who didn't know of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church.

Can anyone point to a passage in the bible where the word Lucifer appears?
I read the entire bible and I don't remember a single reference to this word? I think it might appear in one of the gospels. I read the Jerusalem Bible by the way.

>>19785974
>without an infallible Church you wouldn't have a canon of scripture in the first place

Pure make-believe. What would sustain this argument without your opinion that the Catholic Church is infallible.

>>19787052
>you have to read Vatican II in full to see that it's not as bad as the quotemines make it seem. It affirms multiple times that Christ is the only way to salvation
based JP2 closes the infamous assissi ecumenical meeting with the same assertion. Jesus Christ is the only salvation. the pseudotrad grifters never mention that.

Well my bible finally came in the mail. As a perfect example of why I hate ordering from amazon, its not even what I ordered, its burgundy instead of black and there's no thumb index, and there's only one ribbon instead of two. On the flip side its genuine leather and the version I ordered wasn't supposed to be, and the condition is ok, its definitely worn but good enough for me. all in all I'm just going to keep it because its its not worth the hassle of returning it, but man, fuck amazon, seriously. I had a feeling this would happen because you look at the product reviews and they just have a mish mash of reviews for different products and its basically useless.

I look forward to diving in though

>>19787420
Wrong look up baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. God will not be unfair to anyone in his judgement. To whom much is given much is required.
The Catholic Church exists in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth, so just because a Muslim might not be formally united to the Church on Earth doesn't mean he can't be forgiven by God and accepted into the Church in heaven. God is not bound by the sacraments.

>>19787444
Pseudotrads don't read Vatican II, they just quote others quoting others who once skimmed Vatican II. All the problems people have with Vatican II are often things done "in the spirit of Vatican II™" but not in the council documents themselves.

>>19785974
How is the Church infallible when her priests are decidedly decadent?

>>19787480
The infallibility of the Catholic Church means she will never bind her believers to believe in something untrue. That is all that has ever been meant by it.

>>19787460
If you read Dante's Inferno then you will see there is no exception to it, which reflects the Church's dogma 700 years back in time. St. Augustine came up with the idea and it was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. Baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are modernist heresies to be more inclusive; inclusive, yes, for hell.

>>19787489
But such a holy institution, the Body of Christ no less, should have pederasts as her sons? Doesn't compute.

God isn’t real.

>>19787480
papal infallibility only applies to matters of theology and morals. and only when the pope decrees such things expressly in a clarification of dogma. ie, the pope could say the sky is polka-dotted and communism is good (nb: private property is a requirement of the faith) but he would not be speaking infallibly in those cases.

some priests are decadent, no doubt. and some like Thomas Reece SJ would have you choose "the lesser of two evils" with regard to contraception despite the option of not choosing evil at all and conforming to Catholic doctrine is the morally preferred option. look up the Donatists. the authority and jurisdiction of the priests are not invalid by their bad habits except for those exceptions that demand laicization.

>>19787474
agreed, and an accurate statement

>>19787441
It's like saying that without the Jews being infallible there would have been no canon of Hebrew Scriptures.

>>19787459
what translation anon? sorry it wasn't what you ordered but don't worry about the minor details. as long as the type is big enough to read without you straining your eyes so you actually *do* read it instead of letting it collect dust and you're golden.

>>19787509
Sad, isn't it? I can't defend it except to say that Judas doesn't disprove Jesus.

>>19787527
its just a king James version, and yea the text is probably big enough, and looking at it now the pages are more opaque than I expected so thats a plus

>>19787052
> But this sentence says Muslims are "included in the plan of salvation" so I'm not sure. Maybe it's referring only to some Muslims? I'm sure God will not send an Afghani farmer to hell because he happened to grow up in the wrong religion through no fault of his own.

the catechism affirms that while Jesus is indeed the way to salvation, those who have not heard the gospel -- if they live moral lives according to their own customs -- are not excluded. ie, God instituted baptism and the other sacraments for us (you may call us Catholics the privileged or fortunate if you like), but he is not bound by his own rules like we are. he will save whomever he wishes, and some of those no doubt will be good Muslims (or buddhists, or Hindus, etc).

>>19787565
>just a
>doesn't capitalize King
>"""version"""
I will pray for (You).

>>19787420
>And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold ~ Christ Jesus

>>19787585
lol I was intentionally trying to be casual about it hoping it would stop people from flinging shit about what version I picked

>>19787611
This post ends in 611, the KJB was first released in 1611. Follow the voice of the Shepherd (John chapter 10).

>>19787508
Dante's Inferno has no theological weight bro. Baptism of desire and invincible ignorance can be found in Thomas Aquinas. After the discovery of the new world the Church realised there were many people who hadn't heard of Jesus and would not be judged by the same standard as those who had. To whom much is given much is expected.
You sound like a Sedevacantist fanatic.

>>19787584
>>19787634
But Muslims have heard plenty of Jesus, and yet they are Muslims. This ignorance excuse doesn't really apply to them.

>>19787681
You can't weigh it, God sees aspects that you are blind to. Each individual faces their own inner configuration and battles. How well or poorly one might be doing in those battles with what one has been given to fight with is not necessarily in any way apparent on the surface. Christ warned us against making judgments on others for good reason. We should each concern ourselves with the one person we have the most knowledge and control over, ourselves, and help any and all others in any and all ways which we are capable as representatives of His light. From there the rest is none of our business.

>>19787681
Why is Europe mostly Christian and the Middle East mostly Muslim?

You think all those Christians and Muslims came to this decision impartially and just happened to be divided along geographical lines by coincidence?

Or is it more likely that things like culture, politics, family tradition, and history all influence a person's decision to choose a particular religion?

If the latter is the case, then a Muslim farmer in Afghanistan who follows his conscience and has lived all his life thinking of Christianity as foreign and heretical, not truly understanding it, will not be held to the same standard as a person who has grown up in a Christian culture and was baptised in infancy.

God will not be unfair to anyone in his judgement.

Let's help
>>19785925

>>19787681
>But Muslims have heard plenty of Jesus
No, they haven't. Just like the Sentinelese aboriginals haven't heard the gospel, plenty of Muslims haven't either. Or if they have, they've been taught to mistrust it. As other anon says, God knows them better than you.

>>19785680
Augustine writes that doubt is part of faith, I wouldn't take "overthinking" things as some kind of challenge to your faith if that makes sense. What I'm talking about isn't the same thing as healthy inquiry and questions, which you should be encouraged to do.

>>19787706
>>19787717
>>19787744
If this is the case, it could equally as well be that Islam is right and we're wrong and in need of Allah's mercy. If their excuse is that they are culturally prejudiced against Christianity, then we are equally prejudiced against Islam.

>>19787783
>it could equally as well be that Islam is right and we're wrong
No.

>>19786824
>None of the Church fathers resemble you. None of the Apostolic Churches -- Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Oriental Orthodox -- resemble you. You came into existence in the 1500s. Sola fide, sola scriptura, denial of baptismal regeneration, denial of the Eucharist, denial of the visible Church; all of these are novelties.
The comparison that we seek is that we are in accordance with the teachings of the Apostles which we find only in Scripture. The "church fathers" are theologians, important ones, but ultimately just that. Their closeness to the Apostles does not ipso facto give them authority, as Paul writes of false teachings spreading among his disciples even during his lifetime. All of these things you assume are "universal teachings of the fathers" can be broken down through analysis of individual writers. The "consensus", the idea that the church of then is substantially the church of modern Rome, is mythical and not true.
>It was done. The true Reformation was the Council of Trent.
If this were so then the teachings of Trent would be in accord with God's word, but they are not. That is the only final standard, as only scripture is God-breathed. No council is breathed out by God himself.
>You don't possess the scriptures because you have no way of knowing which books are inspired by God. You don't know whether you've got all the books that God inspired, or whether you've left some out. You don't even know if the ones that you've got are imposters, not actually inspired. You simply have no way of knowing it because you don't believe in an infallible Church.
You do not have infallible knowledge on this subject, despite playing make-believe that you do. The fact that there was no "infallible" ruling until the 1500s demonstrates that such a ruling was unnecessary as Christians were able to know the scriptures prior to that point. Making this claim when the only thing you can actually appeal to is Trent is utterly laughable. We don't even need to get into how Trent is incorrect on the matter, as can be demonstrated from within the Catholic tradition itself.

>>19786824
>You don't possess the scriptures because you have no way of knowing which books are inspired by God. You don't know whether you've got all the books that God inspired, or whether you've left some out. You don't even know if the ones that you've got are imposters, not actually inspired. You simply have no way of knowing it because you don't believe in an infallible Church.
How would a Christian living in Egypt in 350 AD know that the book of Mark is canon, according to you?

>>19785662
Get gassed kike.
You won't prevail against it.

>>19786824
Also: how would a Jew living in 100 BC know that the book of Isaiah is canon, according to you?

>>19785650
all this discussion of denominations. but we do not ask ourselves the question. what does fellowship look like?

>>19786492
Something I would also like to add is that scripture applies the faith/works dichotomy to Abraham as well. So the idea that this is referring to the Mosaic law, which was after Abraham, is absurd.

Rom. 4:1-8 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

>>19785650
> Be me
> Listening to my wine-drunk French-Canadian Mom talk about her childhood in Canuckland
> Canada before the 1980s was the frontier
> Life was rough
> Mom tells me about my great grandfather
> A 6'4 Catholic Farmer named Napoleon with a blonde haired blue eyed Tradwife and 10 kids
> Napoleon, like all French-Canadians back then, was very religious
> Mom tells me a story about Napoleon that she heard from her own Mom
> It was the Great Depression
> Our family was barely scraping by financially
> Hobos started showing up in town
> Everyone in town was scared of the Hobos
> Hobos can't find a place to sleep
> It's Canada so they'll freeze if they don't find shelter
> Despite his own hardships, Napoleon lets the Hobos into his home
> He feeds the Hobos and allows them to stay the night
> My Mom is crying now
> "My grandfather had a big heart, Anon. Just like you."
> Mfw I realize that I've turned my back on God
> Mfw I realize I need to repent
> Mfw my Great Grandfather was a man of principle who went hungry before turning a stranger in need away from his door.
Blessed are the pure of heart: for they shall see God.
My goal moving forward in life is to try and become a fraction of the man that my Great Grandfather was.

>>19788333
BLESSED
CHECKED
BLESSED AGAIN
BLESSED SOME MORE

>>19788333
And now canada is a Godless wasteland. God bless your family, anon.

>>19788421
Everywhere is a Godless wasteland.

>>19788183
Pachamama already did

>>19786824
>None of the Church fathers resemble you
None of the apostles resemble either catholics or protestants too, a jew resembles them though

>>19788183
>calls others kike while defending the Pharisees

>>19788501
protestants are the most evil thing ever wrought upon the earth, snatching souls from Heaven with their vile deeds working tirelessly since Luther spawned the wicked deed in his mind.

>>19785662
Based As Fuck.

>>19788556
>prays to demons in disguise
>calls others evil soul snatchers

what order should i go about reading the bible? just front to back?

>>19788630
You'll probably get burned out that way. It's doable, of course, but you're far better off just starting with the Gospels or looking up a reading guide that takes you through the whole thing in a certain period of time so you can digest what you read.

>>19788635
what about starting with genesis and maybe a few other old testament books then reading the gospels? if one where to do something like that what other books of the old testament would be good to read along side genesis?

>>19787341
No they didn't. Most churches around here are pastored, staffed, and attended by people from its immediate area. They aren't under some global institutional corporation that controls all instances. Even most SBC churches simply do not function in any such way. The pastors tend to be there for decades and live within walking distance, everyone from the church has essentially known them all their lives and will know them until death. They will see each other at the grocery store and Waffle House all the time.

>>19788676
Heck, for that matter we mostly know/knew their daddies and granddaddies, even. If any of them do anything scandalous, at the very least the entire area knows about it and they walk in shame before everyone. This happened one time when a pastor was caught surfing porn on the church computer back in the 90s. None have ever been caught as diddlers which you can guarantee would result in direct ass beatings. A very few (spanning decades) have been known to commit adultery and were shamed before all. That kind of thing is never forgotten, they carry that mark for life, and are actively shunned if unrepentant. It's an entire community thing regardless of which church they and us attend.

Then there's the one Catholic priest I mentioned. He was an outsider, sent here by "the Church™", had a Yankee city boi accent. He loved attention and was constantly doing things to get into the paper and even did a little public access show through the then still local cable company, a talk show with a Yankee woman co host. Everyone in the area knew who he was because of all of that, even though the Catholic church was a tiny building built in the 1940s to accommodate the tiny minority of Yankee transplants around here, a congregation of maybe 20 or so. Suddenly one day he was just *gone* and the reason was quickly spread that he'd been caught in the bed with...well, it was quite the shocker. That man moved away too, on his own out of sheer shame.

>>19787271
So what? You don't get a mulligan for your systematic rape of children just because other organizations do it to. Those institutions are evil too then. That the news neglects to report on those issues also does not make the catholic church look any better. The catholic church teaches that it is an infallible institution that it is necessary for you to be a part of or you will be tortured for eternity. Raping children significantly undermines that claim for any sane person.

>>19788734
How do you even get caught in bed with someone? Do bedrooms not have a lock where you live?

>>19788786
I have never heard the specifics, but I know the "priest" was gone before the news spread, and the other not long after (he was *very* locally prominent) so it was blatantly obvious that it was true. Oddly enough, the local man did not have "the gay voice" back then, but one day in the early 2000s he returned to visit his family, I ran into him in town, spoke a bit, and he did (I did not bring up the elephant).

Maybe they were at a house thinking everyone would be gone for a while and got surprised, though I do not know.

>>19787474
>>19787519
>>19787444
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm

read up

What does the bible say about useless eaters?

>>19788630
>just front to back?
yes

>>19788828
>What does the bible say about useless eaters?
read proverbs and you'll find out

someone recommend me a compact and quality kjv(1611)

>>19789130
The Christian Art Publishers large print compact is surprisingly good for its price (around $15 last I checked). How compact and quality are you wanting to go? I personally think the Church Bible Publishers Cameo Reference is the perfect size, is good quality (hand leather bound in the USA), and has the cross references, for an excellent price ($53 last I checked).

>>19786539
>Catholics and Orthodoxy should be working together by refuting Judaism in the 21st Century. Why aren’t teaming up to rebuke the Christ Killers themselves?
They can't, Christian orthodox theology is inconsistent with the Old Testament, only Jewish Christian theology has a chance.

Catholics forced Ramban to have a debate with them and lost miserably, every Rabbi will say if you want Jews to covert to Christianity, just refute Ramban (one of the most revered sages in Judaism).

Good luck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Barcelona

>>19786655
>and vile kike loving protestants, evangelicals fuel the love for jews in the USA, everyone knows that
they don't love Jews, they want to destroy Judaism to fulfill their eschatological memes
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WOwGP3PGd4Q
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ePtI9FOs-pA

they say it with their own mouth too
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4WX4mXSsEHo

>>19789213
lol this nigga's videos look straight out of 2008

>>19787208
>Bruh, cheating God is a hallmark of Judaism and is the first clue to the fact that it is not a theologically legitimate religion.
they are not cheating God

>They have for example automatic electrical appliances like plates that stay hot for the entire shabbat allowing them to cook
Not lighting any fire so it's fine

>or elevators that always travel between floors without them having to press a button
That relates to restrictions from the Oral Torah which are not found explicitly in the Written Torah, if you say this is cheating God you are recognizing the divinity of the Oral Torah, congratulations Christian

>Isn’t that just the most absurd and silly thing ever?
This is called being pious

>Would you ever act in this kind of disrespect towards your God
I don't think any Christian can talk about how Jews are disrespecting God by trying to fulfill their Oral Torah as much as possible, while millions of Christians waste their seed every day, rob others (piracy, cheating, no business ethics, gambling), commit lashon hara, support abominations like homosexuality and transgenderism, and the worst of all, have zero faith in God when it comes to money and politics (apparently money is just too much for God to handle, you need to work overtime, 3 jobs, go to college, lie about your beliefs for the leftist police, etc), they don't even know kings and similar politicians have zero free will when it comes to important decisions, so they all engage in politics and vomit their lashon hara and all else

>So secular Jewish figure heads
Atheist Jews are the worst enemy of Judaism so be free to destroy them, Rav Marvin Antelman wrote extensively about these people, but other rabbis in soviet union wrote about the treatment the religious got from the atheist Jews too

>>19787187
don't military bases have chapels?

>>19787227
>For what it's worth, Christians, being People of the Book, are a protected class in Islamic jurisprudence
historically this tolerance is only shown while Muslims are the minoriry, after that they are pressured more and more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts

everything a muslims say should be considered a lie until proven otherwise due to the unfortunate precepts of Islam, sorry but it is what it is
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vg5TY5CPrzk

I have a feeling that Islam will be shown false in this century much like Mormonism has been proven false too
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m6Zc67FrpWU

the pagan origins of Islam and all the problems with it are already know, this just needs to be more spread and discussed

l

>>19787271
>The media love to focus on the Church though because it's an impediment to their New World Order
Not the institution itself which was already infiltrated and subverted (see the book goodbye good men), but catholics, since despite them being in a neopagan religion it is still a religion with billions of followers, which goes against the goals of globohomo where pedophilia is normalized and all that resembles godliness is illegal.

>>19787288
please Muslim we know Christians are all just Kafirs for y'all
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-bXwrnJeo_c

/co/ here. Have you heard of The Wolverton Bible?

>>19786961
HaShem is trying to talk to you
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DJDAAva3CUE

You could listen, or remain catholic

>>19787439
>Can anyone point to a passage in the bible where the word Lucifer appears
no, no one can, at least in the original language
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/20952/in-isaiah-1412-did-the-king-james-translator-make-a-mistake-using-the-term-luci

>>19789227
and that is a good thing

>>19787351
I didn't mean anything along the lines that people in Church are actually mean. I don't really know what they are like.

>>19789289
I am not Catholic. I don't know Judaism other than the OT, but I've only ever felt drawn to it toward Christ.

Friendly reminder to actually think about what metaphors mean. For example:

>Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Gates mark the entrance to a place. They are a defensive construction, not an offensive one. You do not make an attack on someone with a gate. So by referring to the gates of hell not prevailing, this means the church will conquer the gates of hell, that is to say, that the church will conquer death.

>1 Tim. 3:15 ... if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

A pillar or buttress (also translated "ground") is something that supports something else. A pillar holds up a roof, for example. So by saying that the church is a pillar of the truth, Paul is saying that the church upholds the truth, not that the church itself is the truth.

>>19788143
You do understand that the decrees of Councils and Popes are not the only infallible teachings of the Church right? The constant teaching of the Church throughout the ages is also infallible. That’s where the canon of scripture comes from, even FF Bruce admits this; Catholics and Orthodox compiled and preserved the Bible.
>>19788180
He might but an earlier Christian wouldn’t that’s my entire point. The early Church did not have an established canon. There were like 200 books which had claims of being canonical. The only thing the early Christians had was the Church and Apostolic succession, the bishops and teaching authorities of the Church. It was later on that the books were compiled; and this compilation was based on Apostolic succession, Church teaching, and the liturgy. People you call damnable heretics compiled and preserved the scriptures you appeal to.

>>19789901
>You do understand that the decrees of Councils and Popes are not the only infallible teachings of the Church right? The constant teaching of the Church throughout the ages is also infallible.
Indeed, the ordinary magisterium is also "infallible". This is actually a problem for you, as it means that if it can be shown that at any point in history the teaching of the church, on any matter of faith or morals, differed from what is currently taught, that Catholicism is false. Something to consider especially in the post VII era, but besides the point at the moment.
>That’s where the canon of scripture comes from, even FF Bruce admits this; Catholics and Orthodox compiled and preserved the Bible.
Again, I do not recognize a discontinuity with the early church and the Reformed church, nor do I recognize that those churches are the equivalent of yours today. I have more to say on this below.
>He might but an earlier Christian wouldn’t that’s my entire point.
They most certainly could have known. I also asked about the OT, as you might have noticed. When Jesus asks "Have you never read in the scriptures" (Matt. 21:41) it presupposes that his audience knew what the scriptures were.
>The early Church did not have an established canon. There were like 200 books which had claims of being canonical.
Indeed, you had no "infallibly" established canon until the 1500s, far beyond the early church period. You appealed to the ordinary magisterium earlier, however. Would you like to get into the minute details of what was actually taught about the canon from the early period to Trent? Because the last thing this does is prove that the modern Catholic canon was a universal teaching, but rather the opposite.
>The only thing the early Christians had was the Church and Apostolic succession, the bishops and teaching authorities of the Church. It was later on that the books were compiled; and this compilation was based on Apostolic succession, Church teaching, and the liturgy.
False, as the canon is an ontological category. In 2 Tim. 3:16 Paul states that all scripture is θεόπνευστος, literally "God-breathed." The scriptures are the only writings which are God-breathed. The canon is category of works which are God-breathed. So the canon is not in any sense determined by man, it is a theological reality that is caused by God prior and independent of human recognition. The most you could claim is that the church recognized the canon through faith, with which I would agree.
>People you call damnable heretics compiled and preserved the scriptures you appeal to.
I do not know the state of their souls and I value their writings, but to value them in truth I must recognize when they are in error.

>>19789901
>People you call damnable heretics
To say one more thing about this, I will repeat that I do not consider the early church fathers to be the equivalent of modern Catholics. A condemnation of one thing does not equate to the other.

>>19788630
If you want a quick-read of the 'essentials' in front to back order then here's a little guide I came up with
OT essentials:
>Pentateuch
Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy chapters 28-34
>Histories
Joshua, Judges, books of Samuel/Kings
>Wisdom Literature/Poetry
Job, Psalms (read a couple at a time, don't rush through them, can put them after other reading sections or as a daily thing), Proverbs, Ecclesiastes
>Prophets
Isaiah, Daniel, Jonah
Touches everything essential, try and get the rest at some point though, including the deuterocanonical texts.
NT is already pretty short but if you're looking for the quickest read then:
>Gospels
Matthew and John
>Apostolic History
Acts
>Epistles
Romans, Galatians, James, Johannine epistles
>Apocalypse
Revelation

>>19789953
Old Testament Jews had an established priesthood with a hierarchy, sacrifices, and the real presence of God, just like we do.
The canon is not an ontological category it’s an epistemological one. It is the list of books that WE KNOW are God-breathed. It’s possible that God inspired some other books and chose not to preserve them because they were only needed for a specific period. I’ll ask you for the 50th time, how do you know which books are God-breathed and which ones aren’t? How do you possibly know the Gospel of John is not an imposter, and there are only three god-breathed Gospels? You don’t as a Protestant.

>>19790031
>Old Testament Jews had an established priesthood with a hierarchy, sacrifices, and the real presence of God, just like we do.
Specifically who would rule for them infallibly that a text was canon and when was it ruled? If the only way we can know this is from an infallible authority, then for Jesus to assume his audience knows the canon, it means that an infallible authority had ruled on the matter. Of course there is no such ruling.
>The canon is not an ontological category it’s an epistemological one. It is the list of books that WE KNOW are God-breathed. It’s possible that God inspired some other books and chose not to preserve them because they were only needed for a specific period.
Such a book would also be canon, but nonexistent. But the distinction you are making is meaningless regarding the point of the argument. If you acknowledge the ontological nature of scripture being θεόπνευστος, then it means that humans cannot determine the canon, because it is determined by God prior to and independent of human recognition.
>I’ll ask you for the 50th time, how do you know which books are God-breathed and which ones aren’t? How do you possibly know the Gospel of John is not an imposter, and there are only three god-breathed Gospels? You don’t as a Protestant.
I know through faith along with the rest of the church. That is the only way to know. If you do not have faith that there is such a thing to begin with then you cannot know it. Also you have no special knowledge that I do not, as you have no infallible authority to rule on it. The assertion that you do is neither here nor there.

>>19785959
Wrong. You do NOT pray to ANYONE but God/Jesus.
You talk directly to your heavenly father.
I don't get catholics who think that is at all what Christ taught.

“But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathens do.For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray:Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.

Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.” (Matthew 6:6-13)

“Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God …” (Philippians 4:6)

“… Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” (John 16:23-24)

“And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14)

Pic related is the reality of "asking Mary to pray for you." This is what it actually means on a doctrinal level. Anyone who tells you that it is just about asking for intercession is lying to you. They know you will find the actual doctrine repulsive and need to establish something lesser in order to gradually acclimate you to the real thing.
1/3

>>19790171
2/3

>>19790176
3/3
The source is "The Glories of Mary" by "St." Alphonus Ligouri. These are only a few sections from the beginning of the text, which is a 600 page tome filled with to the brim with such blasphemy.

An example of an actual prayer to Mary.

>>19788333
BEGOME GADOLIG
REPENT AND COME BACK TO MOTHER CHURCH

>>19787133
Believing in God is not going to get you to Heaven.
There is only one road to God. That is through believing Jesus Christ is Lord and that He was born and died on the cross for your sins and mine.

>>19790188
>>19790178
>>19790176
>>19790171
None of these refute these verses here:
>>19790163
And the most popular Bible verse easily refutes all of what you have posted.
>John 4:16
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

>>19790449
14:6*, rather. Sorry.

Is the New Testament worth reading in the original Greek? What about the Septuagint?

>>19790449
I was posting those to show how Catholics are deceptive when they say that they are just asking for intercession. They quite clearly worship Mary. Various things the texts I cited claim:
>All of God's mercy is dispersed according to Mary's will
>Mary's prayers create laws which God must follow
>Jesus obeys Mary because he owes her as a debtor
I also called it blasphemous. We are not in disagreement.

>>19790188
Not to mention just the fact that those church figures were sitting around thinking about Mary enough to concoct all of that was a fruit of their worship. A lot of that, if you really think about it, is worshiping their own intellects, and that of the essential faculties of the human. They wanted to compete with the local philosophers and religions, to have interesting "concepts" to present in the public square debates. They were being driven by such things rather than by Christ and what He taught/commanded. The laity that took the beliefs on were probably largely illiterate and not in direct contact with the Scriptures, and simply went along with whatever their trusted leaders told them. Over time from there, after having been indoctrinated, many others spent yet many more countless hours thinking on these matters, and looking for them in any tiny crack of Scripture they could squint and spot them in.

Pray for my grandpa. He has COVID and cancer.

>>19791344
Lord have mercy.

I just started Judges and I am confused. Chapter 1 verse 2-3 mention Jacob's sons, Judah and Simeon. But they must be far older than Moses, and they were an original generation who were somehow allowed into the promised land? How does that make sense?

>>19790196
Funny because St. Thomas Aquinas said theology is science.

>>19791518
>But they must be far older than Moses, and they were an original generation who were somehow allowed into the promised land? How does that make sense?
search for rashi's commentary on sefaria.org

>>19791344
Done and for (You) also.

>>19787783
Lol if you think that argument holds any weight you should just go back to being an atheist like you were six months ago

I honestly think the main reason I am drawn to Orthodoxy is pride. I want to be undertake some kind of ascetic struggle, to engage in "mystery", but it is to fuel my own pride. I'm fairly sure on an intellectual level that it is false, but I feel this temptation anyway and I think that is why.

>>19791769
That's why almost all modern converts are drawn to it. They want to be "better" than the "commoners" in the churches they come from or are familiar with. This "better" is rooted in both all of the "concepts" and "aesthetics", the "exoticness", etc. Anyone who is truly serious about Christianity can pick up any number of commentaries to learn more of the "concepts", but the real meat is in sober humility and seeking to be a servant and follow the voice of the Shepherd. God assuredly wants there to be serious, yet humble followers scattered throughout all churches, serving His flock wherever they are. The children growing up in those humble, "low" churches need figures among them to be there and help them learn and grow, and answer questions of the faith that arise within themselves, etc.

>>19791896
Indeed. I've often found that the thing I ought to do is the opposite of whatever it is I desire to do. The heart is deceitful above all things, etc. I do believe monasticism to be false in its entirety. Orthodoxy has gone all in on the idea that monasticism is the superior pursuit. The "normal" followers are there to pick up the scraps the monks provide and try to apply them how they may.

>>19790055
>I know through faith along with the rest of the church.
For Protestants the sole infallible rule of faith is the Scriptures. You're not allowed to have religious faith in anything which is outside of the Scriptures, like the canon itself. No book in the Bible tells you which books should or should not be in the Bible. That's a tradition you inherited from the Catholic Church, which you call heretical. Hence you have no infallible knowledge of the Canon.

>>19792143
>For Protestants the sole infallible rule of faith is the Scriptures.
Correct.
>You're not allowed to have religious faith in anything which is outside of the Scriptures, like the canon itself.
We can have religious faith in anything that is in accord with the scriptures. We hold to the Nicene Creed (among others) as well our own doctrinal standards.
>No book in the Bible tells you which books should or should not be in the Bible.
Correct but irrelevant.
>That's a tradition you inherited from the Catholic Church, which you call heretical.
1. As I have stated the scripture is not something that can be determined by man, only recognized. The church recognizes it through faith, it does not define it. Whatever scheme you are working under, this is how it occurred. The only way to avoid this is to deny that scripture is God-breathed.
2. Again you engage in this assertion that the substance of the early church is the equivalent of you today. We reject and hold that we are the legitimate inheritors of the tradition prior to the Reformation, as we are the ones who purified it of its errors rather than exacerbating and solidifying them.
3. Indeed the canon that we hold is the canon of the catholic church (meaning us, not you) from prior to the Reformation, as it was a longstanding tradition that the deuterocanon was profitable for reading but not authoritative in matters of faith.
>Hence you have no infallible knowledge of the Canon.
No one does, including you. The assertion that you possess it, or that you think such a thing is good or necessary, does not prove that such a thing exists.

>>19792190
>No one does, including you.
Well there you go you've just admitted it lmao. Your whole religion falls apart from this admission.

>>19792240
The human understanding of anything is fallible by its nature, I'm afraid. God is infallible.

>>19792261
The point is you have no infallible basis for your belief in the canon because your sole infallible rule of faith is the Scripture, which doesn't give you the canon. I can say I have an infallible knowledge of the canon because I also believe the Church is infallible, which gave me the Canon. Your position dissolves into theological relativism because anyone can chuck out any books that they don't like from the Bible to justify their own doctrines, like Luther wanted to do with the Epistle of James.

>>19792295
>The point is you have no infallible basis for your belief in the canon because your sole infallible rule of faith is the Scripture, which doesn't give you the canon.
Scripture does not contain a list, but the scripture itself is the list, as scripture is an ontological matter. We know it through faith. I repeat that this something that is not negated on your end. The church has recognized it through faith, and you recognize the church through faith. Your understanding of the matter is the result of faith.
>I can say I have an infallible knowledge of the canon because I also believe the Church is infallible, which gave me the Canon.
And your decision that the church is infallible is fallible. You do not have a method by which you can elevate yourself out of the limits of humanity in this regard. Again we recognize these matters through faith.
>Your position dissolves into theological relativism because anyone can chuck out any books that they don't like from the Bible to justify their own doctrines, like Luther wanted to do with the Epistle of James.
Or they could add ones, as Catholicism has done with the deuterocanon. Again I think you seek to move beyond human limitations, but you cannot.

>>19792324
Alright mate, good discussion but there's no point going in circles. I think we each know what the other's opinion is on this.

>>19792333
Good day to you anon.

>>19792143
>listens to various random ancient converts
>gets fooled by Satan into praying to Ishtar
>"Church™" requires one to profess specific belief in Mary's hymen being miraculously preserved during childbirth in order to join
>not to mention calling leaders "Father"
>and *so very much more* blatant disregards for direct quotes of Christ and Apostles
>criticizes others for relying only on God's breathed Scripture as the sole infallible earthly source for doctrine
Opinion Satanic and discarded.

Absolute NOOB here but can someone convince me to become a Catholic please I have this friend who converted and I don't understand how you could possibly go from atheist to Catholic, Ty X X x

>>19792403
>can someone convince me to become a Catholic
I will not lead you into error, so no.

Will animals still exist in the life to come?

>>19792428
Repent

>>19792403
Your friend joined the Whore of Babylon, I'm sorry.

>>19792840
dont listen to this vile filth,

>>19792840
Begone, Satan.

>>19792403
Read Scott Hahn's books.

>>19792403
Become Christian instead.

>>19793241
stealing more souls from the faith,eh satan?

.

where do i get a nice Cross Necklace, anons?

>>19794006
Whittle one with your Swiss Army Knife.

You guys were all at the March for Life, right?

>>19794182
Jesus didn't "march" for things. He avoided politics and said to give the government what they demanded and the rest of yourself to God. The way to support a cause is to live it yourself, that's it.

>>19794197
Weird way to say you support abortion.

>>19794203
Interesting how you automatically assume entirely incorrectly.

>>19785680

Early Christianity was a death cult invented by predatory Jews. If you joined them you would enter into one of their secret meetings in a Roman crypt and get surprise butt fucked or murdered and eaten. You would probably be ritually possessed by Christ or some schizo shit too before they raped you.

>>19794197
>>19794208
Abortion is still murder, m8.

>>19794295
Yes, and?

>>19792771
>>19793191
>>19793195
>>19793213
>>19793281
Our salvation is by faith in Christ. Faith is the instrument whereby we are made right with God, and not works. Our works play no role in justifying us before God, but are a fruit of our justification. As Paul writes,

Rom. 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

The one who trusts in his works will receive what is his due judgment. The one who has only faith will receive the gift of salvation that is given to the ungodly.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We are righteous in God's sight because our sins have been imputed to Christ, who bore the punishment thereof, and Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us, that we may be counted holy. This is the exchange that Paul speaks of here, where each side receives the imputation:

2 Cor. 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Afterwords, standing righteous before God's sight, adopted as his children, and with love for Christ in our hearts, we seek to follow God's statutes and bring ourselves ever in greater obedience to him. The spirit works in us to bring about these changes in our being and increase us in holiness. But these things do not justify us before God.

Come out from among her and believe the true Gospel, that we are saved by God, fully and truly saved by God, and not by any work that we ourselves perform.

>>19787439
Lucifer means morning star (stars are divine language in the Bible) which is used
That's what Lucifer fucking means
This is associated with the cherub/nacash in genesis 3
There is in Isaiah a comparison drawn between a Babylonian monarch and said morning Star
To say that this has nothing to do with "Lucifer" is to eject the Bible from its context
There is no power in the world that is not backed by some sort of divine entity in ANE
To say that Isaiah is talking about just some guy is patently absurd

>>19785650
Fine
David's story has convinced me that cooming can and does have severe consequences and apparently Solomon's love quest is going to be even worse

>>19795230
David’s story is very difficult to believe. First of all I find it extremely ludicrous any man would let his wife bathe on the roof in open view of the public in that society let alone with a king watching who by this time would by now be known for requisitioning wives he saw on rooftops . Secondly I find it highly dubious he would have the offed when as a king he could have just told the guy to divorce her which would take five minutes then and wouldn’t cost him such a vital general

>>19795265
The guy* offed

>>19795265
>he could have just told the guy to divorce her
he couldn't, only the supreme court could even attempt something like that

>>19795265
In an era of
A) nothing resembling air conditioning which first appears in Rome though nothing like our modern appliances
B) public bathing being common place
I don't see why someone wouldn't just do something like that, it's not like nudity had the same connotations back then as it does now. "Seeing someone's nakedness" in ot is euphemism for sex, it's not about just being naked
Also, David didn't just off him, he tried to get him to go back home and fuck Bathsheba several times in order to pretend as though none of this happened
Your grand design is prohibited by the law which the king was duty bound to follow
He tried to pull off his stunt discreetly and failed
Stop trying to impose Muhammad's behaviour on David lmao

>>19794182
no
if it were March for WHITE lives though I'd have went

19795292
this guy can have other men’s wives brought to him for sex with impunity and kill the guy with the same impunity but if he tells a subject to divorce his wife the guy will just say no


19795300
Public bathing was mostly done segregated bath houses not on rooftops because then you have to take the water all the way up and back down again after using it. Yes nudity of women in front of men was definitely considered a big deal, we all know how Diana reacted to someone seeing her bathing

This really has nothing to do with Muhammad or your fairy tales about him, I’m actually the one saying your story about David is silly based on how kings actually behaved when they wanted to end a marriage, this happened regularly with Romans

>>19795343
>this guy can have other men’s wives brought to him for sex with impunity
says whom?

>>19795343
>this happened regularly with Romans
your mistake is to assume Israel was anything close to pagan kingdoms

>>19795349
Says the story.

>>19795354
What David here would have been much worse actually and was a matter of public record yet there was no reaction. And Solomon did become a pagan according to the Jews who say this about David

>>19795387
story?

>And Solomon did become a pagan according to the Jews who say this about David
And David wasn't Solomon. And Solomon wasn't living in a pagan society.

Any time a fake and gay bible comes to us we should burn it to keep it from infecting anyone else with Satan's lies. If you donate it then someone else will get it. If you give it away then you are directly infecting others with Satan's lies. We should stop buying all fake and gay bibles and force those who publish them out of business. Burning the fake and gay bibles is also symbolic of sending them to the pits of hell where they belong. Be not easily fooled because if it says New in the name of it then it is fake and gay too even if the rest of the name sounds real.

>>19787147
It's exclusively non-Latin Mass priests.

>>19796781
>source: the depths of my own asshole where my head stays

>>19796781
Wait but anon, according to the super knowledgeable catholic anon the latin mass is bad and cringe and the church was wrong to use it for hundreds of years.

>>19796781
Moron. SSPX have more child rape than any other priestly society.

>>19796781
This is false as the Vatican knew about these problems dating back to the 1950s.

I'm convinced that the Protestant interpretation of certain doctrines e.g. how salvation occurs, is correct, but Protestantism just feels spiritually dead to me. It makes me depressed to think about it.

>>19797229
There is no spirit in any "ism". The only legitimate church is the Body of Christ. There are members of the Body of Christ in many "denominations" and even in no "denominations". There are many in all of these "denominations" who are not in the Body of Christ. Stop trying to find humans and human institutions to put your faith into. Put your faith in God.

where did people get their crucifix?

>The only physical copy I can find is $650
What a pain, man. I can get a pdf of course but I prefer physical books. I hope they do another reprint.

Well I started genesis and read up until the destruction of Sodom this afternoon. my prevailing thought so far is that things are a lot more brief than I expected, for example it barely says anything about the corruption that makes god regret making man, it just seems to come out of nowhere and hit very suddenly. also the tower of babel, which i was looking forward to learn about, is basically just a small blurb that is quickly glossed over. it seems like just about everything ive heard about the old testament is just quickly glossed over in the first 20 pages

>>19797370
now read some good exegesis on Genesis

>>19797370
There are often other references throughout Scripture that provide greater insights and depth. While none ever provide all of the references, or even necessarily the best ones in some cases, I advise using reference Bibles which provide cross references.

>400 pages into an exposition on the armour of God in Ephesians
>finally reached the second piece of armour

>>19797489
>Practical Observations on Job

>>19797501
Like Owen on Hebrews. Amazing how they were able to write so much on single books.

Endure suffering and avoid temptations. Verses for this feel?

>>19797489
>>19797501
>needing all this

>>19797849
Who said we need it?

>>19792403
The Holy Catholic Church was founded by Saint Peter and shared with the apostles. The Catholic Church continued through their 72 disciples and direct successors.
For Tolkien Catholicism was the right path because of the importance it gave to Eucharist.
>The importance of the Eucharist:
>Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. [...] There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste—or foretaste—of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man’s heart desires.

And personally for me The communion of saints is what guided me to Catholicism.

>>19798006
This but Orthodoxy because Rome is a heretical body.

>>19794246
almost 2000 years later and these type of people still try to spread their lies and malice about Christianity.

>>19798027
really makes ya think

>>19798030
No it doesn't. I just think it's quite horrible.

>>19798026
This, but orthodox Protestant because both Rome and Constantinople got fooled by Satan into being crypto Ishtar worshipers.

>>19787189
Your argument does not make sense. A pedophile will not stop because he is married. That's a naive way of thinking.
The Church has always fought the corruption inside its body. This is not the first time or the last, but the Church will endure.

>>19798045
>moving pedofag priests to other parishes when they get caught
>fought the corruption inside its body

>>19798058
You are missing the point here and you are also trying to dismiss one statement by assuming I meant fighting corruption in the Church means to move priests, when that wasn't the case.

"I do not think there are many among bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish." --St. John Chrysostom

>>19798074
Clearly no one gave a fuck about the child molestation until it became a huge international scandal and they were forced to respond.

>>19797271
I got mine in my church.

>>19798087
Corruption inside the Church was a well know problem and I repeat you, this is not the first time nor the last time the Church will face an internal crisis, but it will endure and it will survive. There is good people and even if the Church is reduced to a few good men, those few good men will continue the Holy Catholic Church of Christ.

>>19798110
The problem is that the Vatican did not act against the issue incompetently, or with inadequate resources. What happened is that they either 1) covered shit up or 2) switched priests around when they got accused of something, generally sending the worst offenders to Brazil or some other place where they could stay off the heat until everything was forgotten. They acted like some sort of racket all the way to the top (even before this new scandal there were Papal papers circulating on how to "handle" these priests, IIRC Crimen Solicitationis is one by Ratzinger). I can accept that a human institution where lots of money is circulating will have corruption in it, but the Vatican here was basically endorsing this corruption.

>>19798160
Also I say this without a spirit of anti-Catholicism as many people do here to promote their own denomination like the Ishtar schizo. I have no agenda in this, be whatever you want, but the Vatican is definitely not acting positively as an entity. It's not a good body afflicted with a sickness.

Is there a version of king james that's in paragraph form and not this bullshit two column 3 words a fucking line 14 point font bullshit?

>>19798160
And when there was problems during schismatic times, heresies or bad popes the Church was in crisis, but the Church survived those horrible events and continued to exist and this will be no different. And it's the duty of those that are good catholics to call and denounce what is bad, to support the foundation of the Church, to encourage good in the face of evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Excluded_from_Heaven

>Julius Excluded from Heaven (Latin: Iulius exclusus e coelis) is a dialogue that was written in 1514, commonly attributed to the Dutch humanist and theologian Desiderius Erasmus. It involves Pope Julius II, who had recently died, trying to persuade Saint Peter to allow him to enter Heaven by using the same tactics he applied when alive. The dialogue is also supplemented by a "Genius" (his guardian angel) who makes wry comments about the pope and his deeds.

>The dialogue begins with a drunken Pope Julius II trying to open the gate of heaven with the key to his secret money-chest. He is accompanied by his Genius, his guardian angel. Behind him are the soldiers who died in his military campaigns, whom he promised would go to heaven regardless of their deeds. Peter denies him passage, even when Julius threatens him with his army and papal bulls of excommunication, and questions him about his deeds on Earth. Julius then goes into a lengthy explanation of his deeds and justifies his sins, ranging from simony to pederasty, with the fact that the pope has the authority to excuse any sin. Peter is disgusted by his description and turns him away. The dialogue ends with Julius planning to muster an army to create his own paradise and capture Heaven.

lol

>>19798182
I can think of three
Cambridge Clarion
Cambridge Paragraph Bible
Schuyler Treveris KJV

>>19798178
>promote their own denomination like the Ishtar schizo
What denomination?

>>19798209
Why are bibles so expensive? You'd think they got good enough at printing the most popular book of all time.

>>19798250
Church Bible Publishers are printed and hand bound in the USA for way less than those and the Schuylers are even partly done in China or wherever but are still priced like they are glazed in diamond dust.

>>19798250
Because you're looking at specialized versions that not many people will buy.

>>19798264
I stole a gideons bible from a hotel and I got my grandpas bible when he died. I never went out of my way to get a bible of my own before. What an interesting little cosmos of publishing logistics.

>>19798295
The Gideons gave everyone in my school Bibles in 3rd grade, but that's been outlawed since then. My church gave me one when I was 2 yrs old then another when I graduated high school. My parents gave me one in middle school. I got my grandfather's when he passed but it is in rough shape (worn and rotted leather from the 1920s). On and on, had tons of them.

>>19798208
>The dialogue ends with Julius planning to muster an army to create his own paradise and capture Heaven.
Based

>>19785820

>>19785650
I'm interested in learning about Jesus Christ, could any of you recommend some books and their translations?
I don't quite understand why but something about Jesus' actions and being is of immense interest. A being from God but not God, descends to Earth with love for all of humanity, and with the intention to set right the wrongs of society, and for this He is killed in the most humiliating, painful way at the time.

>>19798539
I've seen some people touch the middle of their chest and then hold their hand to the chest openly. What's that about?

>>19787480
>The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

>>19798541
Christians believe that Jesus is God though

>>19788630
https://biblehub.com/timeline/

>>19790901
Only way to read the OT imo

>>19798541
Jesus of Nazareth by Benedict XVI.

>>19798593
That's where they are wrong. Also stop thotposting.

>>19788333
A wonderful story. Thank you.

>>19798541
>Vita Jesu Christi ex Evangelio et approbatis ab Ecclesia Catholica doctoribus sedule collecta
https://archive.org/details/vitajesuchristie01ludouoft/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater
I tried finding an English version of this book once and it was too expensive for me desu. Knowing (some) Latin comes in handy.

anybody read any Origen ? I know hes a heretic but someone said recently he had some really beautiful writings and some truth here and there.

>wanted to order the Vulgate
>bought a Switch game with the money instead
I'm hopeless, bros...

>>19798967
the Vulgate is butchered by Jerome anyway

>>19798976
And he was the only one of the lot who even tried to learn Hebrew

>>19791769
I considered Orthodoxy for close to the same reasons but I stuck to Roman Catholic. It's what my family is and I live in the west in a region where it's prominent, there's no escaping the history it has here. It's an inseparable part of my roots and my childhood

KJV

J

V

There are a lot of Christians on /lit/, brothers I ask for prayer as I've been attacked by demons and I'm the victim of witchcraft. God has sustained me, and our lady has protected me, but as Christians we pray for one another in need. This faith is the real deal, love you all.

>>19799744
I will pray for you tonight, anon.

>>19791896
>>19791769
Beauty and mystery are often conflated with pride, and in some cases there can be truth to the notion, however we always forget that dignity is one of the most integral values in Christianity. Pride is when you private dignity, in other words it's fundamentally selfish. The beauty and mystery of Catholicism and Orthodoxy is experienced as sharing in honor through serving something greater than yourself, as the beauty and honor the angels comes from God, and their assent to serve him. The saints glory is sharing in God's light.

>>19799791
>sharing in honor through serving something greater than yourself
Not limited to Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

>>19799862
Demons are not great

>>19798178
>>19798228

>>19800002
calvinist prottyism afaik

>>19800029
If a denomination was being promoted per the accusation then there would be something certain, not an "afaik".

>>19800040
Don't care. I skip over his posts when he starts with his schizobabble. He says the same two things over and over again, you know?

Never descend into the earth, foul things linger in such places.


https://youtu.be/UVEU6n2eKtg?t=711

>>19800074
It would seem that I can't take your word for that being true because you are admitting to saying inaccurate things without knowing what you're speaking of. I wonder if having such a warp of the mind/soul is a result of praying to demons in disguise instead of only praying to God?

>>19791896
>That's why almost all modern converts are drawn to it.
I come from atheism. I've always seen Catholicism as some kind of mafia, so I went with Protestantism at first and I realized that Prottyism is entirely about fitting the entirety of the Scriptures to your own favorite narrative, which in the majority of cases is AHH THE GAYS, TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT or YESS THE GAYS, DOWN WITH TRUMP!! It's nothing but a self-serving political movement with Jesus poorly tacked on. Protestants are so divorced from Christianity I think they're even less Christian than agnostics.
>But they read the Scriptures so much!
Yeah and that's entirely so that they can twist them to whatever they want at a given moment. If they're doing something un-Christian they need to be able to go "but here, look, in this verse it says so and so, this means I am justified". That is all that Protestant knowledge of Scripture amounts to, in practice. They dissect them as a lawyer would dissect a legal manual. Who else did that?
Of course all earthly institutions are corrupt, but I don't see an alternative to Orthodoxy except giving up entirely. I certainly refuse to think I can be a Christian while I LARP as some kind of inquisitor online like the Ishtar schizo, who should take the beams off both his eyes. There are many Prottys online who went this way, they never go to a Church and live their Christianity entirely through YouTube channels and spewing vitriol on whoever they think is a worthy target, which is everyone but themselves and the e-pastor they simp for.
Christianity is in such a dismal state it's extremely difficult to justify what's going on. Of course my perspective comes from a Catholic background, but had I been Russian I would've probably leaned toward Catholicism since I know that the Russian church is equally corrupt, just in a different way. But at least Orthodoxy is not slowly telling me that being a child-grooming homosexual is not that bad or conversely telling me that Christianity is just far right politics.

>>19800109
And are you a Calvinist or not?

>>19800109
Also just out of curiosity, are you also the same schizo who goes KJ""""V"""" and rants that there are no "versions" of the Bible but only the KJ"B" which is the actual untranslated word of God that was somehow kept dormant for 1600 years?

>>19789189
Based.

>>19798539
Reminder that Orthodox originally made the sign of the cross like pic related. It gradually changed in Greece, etc. but Russia kept the original way. Eventually the Russian Patriarch Nikon in the 1600s sent clergy to Greece to see how the Greeks performed their rites who saw that it was different. So he assumed the Greek way, which had been changed, was the original, and the Russian way, which was the original, had been changed, so he forced everyone to make the sign in the new way, among other changes, and severely persecuted anyone who would not comply, including burning them at the stake.

>>19800630
Pic also related.

>>19798541
>A being from God but not God
Jesus is God

>>19799471
>It's what my family is and I live in the west in a region where it's prominent, there's no escaping the history it has here. It's an inseparable part of my roots and my childhood
This is a non-Christian argument.

Matt. 10:34-39 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

New Thread >>19800938

>>19800630
>Eventually the Russian Patriarch Nikon in the 1600s sent clergy to Greece to see how the Greeks performed their rites who saw that it was different.
Did they take photos?

>>19800159
>>19800174
This makes a 3rd recent time where it seems like someone sees me reflected in others like a carnival funhouse room of mirrors. Were those other 2 times (You)? Talk about schizo. Rent free!

>>19801309
Yes or no?