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/lit/ - Literature


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19789842 No.19789842 [Reply] [Original]

I want to become free from the seductive clutches of the material world. I finished this (it was quite short but moving), but what do I read next to help eliminate worldly fetters and see clearly?

>> No.19789858
File: 32 KB, 301x475, thegnos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19789858

>> No.19789886

Dhammapada is really good
>The man immersed in gathering blossoms, his heart distracted: death sweeps him away—as a great flood, a village asleep.
>Even if for a lifetime the fool stays with the wise, he knows nothing of the Dhamma, as the ladle, the taste of the soup.
>Just as sharp-bladed grass, if wrongly held, wounds the very hand that holds it the contemplative life, if wrongly grasped, drags you down to hell.
I also enjoy some other bits and pieces from elsewhere, here's a few lines from the Buddhacarita:
>Two trees in the wild, both with luxuriant flowers and leaves...when one is cut down, the other one does not know fear. People are just as unwitting
>If the nature of woman is such how can one hold them dear? When bathing and making use of ornaments they deceive the minds of men
>A high position is an abode of calamities, the wise do not dwell there
>If one has vomited up greed, anger, and delusion then returns and partakes of them, he is like someone who eats his own vomit...who could bear this suffering?

>> No.19790034

>>19789858
Based
>>19789886
Suttanipata is also pretty good
Rhinoceros sutta is the best

>> No.19790054

>>19789842
Buddhism will only lead you to the darkness of the void, which they call nirvana.

>> No.19790057

>>19789886
>>A high position is an abode of calamities, the wise do not dwell there
This is a subtle irony because Buddha's dwelling place is often the vulture's peak.

>> No.19790065
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19790065

>>19790054

>> No.19790067

>>19789886
>the contemplative life, if wrongly grasped, drags you down to hell
what did he mean by this

>> No.19790070

>>19790067
Probably that you can fuck yourself up with meditation if you go full retard with it

>> No.19790071

>>19790070
how do you go full retard with it

>> No.19790074

>>19790071
There are kundalini horror stories for example. But I don't see how you can go wrong with the meditation methods the Buddha himself described (satipatthana), I could only see the weirder tibetan/tantric stuff being dangerous

>> No.19790077
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19790077

>>19789842

Gautama, Siddhārtha. Dislike him. A cheap nihilist, insipid and foolhardy. A pied piper, pathological narcissist and a cloying moralist. Some of his modern disciples are extraordinarily amusing. Nobody takes his claims about remembering past lives seriously.
Majjhima Nikāya. His best work, though an obvious and shameless imitation of Yājñavalkya's "Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad"
Dīgha Nikāya. Dislike it intensely.
Dhammapada. Dislike it intensely. Ghastly rigmarole

>> No.19790078

>>19790071
By starving yourself to death

>> No.19790079

>>19790077
>shit take
>iphoneposter
Checks out

>> No.19790084

>>19790074
>kundalini horror stories
post some

>> No.19790086

>>19790084
Just googled it, here's an example
https://tinybuddha.com/topic/my-kundalini-horror/

>> No.19790097

>>19789842
You should try these texts:
1) Sutta Nipata
2) Samyutta Nikaya
3) Udana
4) Majjhima Nikaya
5) Digha Nikaya

After this, you can try Mahayana texts if you want. If so, I recommend:

1) Salistamba Sutra
2) Lotus Sutra
3) Vimalakirti Sutra
4) Infinite Life Sutra (Longer Sukhāvatīvyūha-sūtra)
5) Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana

You'll be able to decide if you want to follow the buddhist path after this, but the continuation of the path is still immense. This is just for a glympse.

>> No.19790101

>>19790097
Why SN before MN?

>> No.19790110

>>19789842
Ignore all other posts.
This is the last fucking time I am posting this on /lit. The Ashtavakra Samhita/Gita:
https://estudantedavedanta<dot>net/Astavakra-Samhita<dot>pdf
Literally just 27 pages and you'll know everything you need to. But you faggots want to fill up your shelves with multiple books saying the same thing over and over again.

>>19790065
Bullshit, check PDF above

>> No.19790113
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19790113

>>19790110
>This is the last fucking time I am posting this on /lit

>> No.19790144

>>19790110
buddha destroyed hinduismso hard, none of the hindu ramblings are useful for reaching nirvana,

>> No.19790151

>>19790101
Sn is less supposedly less manipulated than MN. Typically MN has MN 49 with the ''consciousness without feature'', ie the hindu and mahayana crap that citta is eternal. Same in DN11.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html

>> No.19790154

>>19790151
The Samyutta Nikaya would contain the most historically accurate recording of Gautama's teachings then?

>> No.19790198
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19790198

>>19790144
> buddha destroyed hinduismso h-

>> No.19790204

>>19789842
>what do I read next
The Eight precepts.

>> No.19790214

>>19790057
..... This is a joke?

>> No.19790221

>>19790151
> Sn is less supposedly less manipulated than MN. Typically MN has MN 49 with the ''consciousness without feature'', ie the hindu and mahayana crap that citta is eternal. Same in DN11.
The Bahuna Sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya also describes Buddha dwelling in “unrestricted awareness” that is different from the skandas of perception, consciousness etc. So it’s found in at least the AN, DN and MN. If you have to reject the majority of the earliest Buddhist scripture (Nikayas) as manipulated for not conforming to a later exegetical interpretation, maybe that’s an indication that your interpretation of the Nikayas is incorrect, instead of the Nikayas themselves being manipulated.

>> No.19790222
File: 1.83 MB, 320x570, 1642273497878.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19790222

>>19790101
Based knowledgeable anon above posted some stuff.

Sn before mn is definitely an interesting choice, because it's much shorter and to the point than MN. It also contains the most ancient collection of all the pali texts afaik. However it's mostly verse poetry, and it can be very abstruse.

Read it! Make your own conclusions.

I personally recommend looking into ajahn nyanamoli under "Hillside Hermitage" on youtube for some assistance with all this interpretation you will have to be doing. I wish I had found him sooner. Good luck.

>> No.19790231

>>19790221
That sutta doesn't talk about any "awareness outside of the five khandhas," please don't misrepresent the Buddha. You're reading that in.

>> No.19790256

>>19790086
What is the buddhist take on chakras?

>> No.19790311

>>19790198
Oh nonono

>> No.19790312

>>19790231
> That sutta doesn't talk about any "awareness outside of the five khandhas”
That the sutta is indeed doing so seems pretty obvious

>he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?"
>"Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.081.than.html

There isn’t any way that someone can dwell in unrestricted awareness after having been freed from, disassociated from and released from feeling, form, perception, consciousness etc unless that unrestricted awareness is different from those perception, consciousness etc, because its a contradiction to say you are dwelling in something that you have disassociated from and been released from.

>> No.19790500
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19790500

>Buddhism
Repent

>> No.19790519

>>19790500
How does this suggest the gospel was hidden in the OT, let alone that Christianity is true? Seems very contrived.

>> No.19790548

>>19790500
Enoch doesn't mean teaching

>> No.19790553

>>19790548
Nor does Lamech mean "to the despairing"

>> No.19790581

>>19790256
Could anyone answer this? What would the Buddha have thought of expedient means like Kundalini yoga?

>> No.19790604

>>19790581
Buddhism is about going beyond the particularities of experience. No matter what musical woo woo experiences you get, they are also just experiences, subject to change, and therefore subject to Dukkha when delighted in. The teaching of the Buddha is a teaching of non - delight in the entire world of experienced phenomena. That's why, at least in the pali Canon and theravada, you don't see any recommendation of such practices as they are basically meditation rooted in wrong view.

>> No.19790606

>>19790604
Aren't the jhanas also experiences, though?
Nirvana is beyond experience but it's also not nothingness, so isn't it similar to the ninth jhana?

>> No.19790637

>>19790604
doesn’t therevada say you have to be a monk to accomplish anything

>> No.19790648

>>19789842
>I want to become free from the seductive clutches of the material world.
Do you think that Buddha achieved this by reading books?

>> No.19790649

>>19790637
No, you can even be a stream enterer as a lay practicioner

>> No.19790677

>>19789842
get into the state of mind the Prajnaparamita is explaining:

So, in emptiness, no form,
No feeling, thought, or choice,
Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body,
mind;
No colour, sound, smell, taste,
touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of,
Nor even act of sensing.
No ignorance or end of it,
Nor all that comes of ignorance;
No withering, no death,
No end of them.
Nor is there pain, or cause of pain,
Or cease in pain, or noble path
To lead from pain;
Not even wisdom to attain!
Attainment too is emptiness.
So know that the Bodhisattva
Holding to nothing whatever,
But dwelling in Prajna wisdom,
Is freed of delusive hindrance,
Rid of the fear bred by it,
And reaches clearest Nirvana.

>> No.19790705
File: 238 KB, 896x1360, 71cw8G4iQPL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19790705

read this desu

>> No.19790742

>>19790581
If it's able to lead to jhana then I think he would be fine with it. The only problem is that people mistake the euphoric feeling for God, or the true self, or pure consciousness or whatever. But people fall into this trap with standard Buddhist meditation too, which is why you have to develop discernment along with jhana.

>> No.19790755

I threw away all of my possessions and now I'm bored and sad

>> No.19790759

>>19790755
Didn't throw away your computer though

>> No.19790791

It's often said you should meditate on the transience of phenomena but I don't get it. Of course nothing lasts, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying temporary things. How am I supposed to become disgusted with temporary objects of clinging if I don't mind them being temporary?

>> No.19790821

>>19790759
posting from library

>> No.19790827

>>19790821
Well congratulations, you've relinquished your material possessions. Now what's the next step of your master plan?

>> No.19790899

>>19790500
God bless.

>> No.19790920

>>19790899
That pic is wrong though lol

>> No.19790924

>>19790920
What's wrong?

>> No.19790932

>>19790924
See >>19790548, >>19790553
Also Christianity is just false

>> No.19790935

>>19790827
surviving homelessness

>> No.19790937

>>19790935
Good luck. May you become an enlightened hobo.

>> No.19790940

>>19790932
do you have a single fact to back that up

>> No.19790943

>>19790940
Yeah, the hebrew language
Go embarrass yourself in your bible general, don't shit up other threads with your desert demon cult please

>> No.19790969
File: 15 KB, 695x664, 1642711832626.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19790969

>>19790943
>Yeah, the hebrew language

>> No.19790983

>>19790969
Cope

>> No.19790994

>>19790969
You will never be a real Christian.
You have no faith. You have no genuine belief in the metaphysical. You have no Christian virtues.
You are a disenfranchised 20-something male twisted by herd mentality and contrarianism into a crude mockery of a devout faithful.

>> No.19791004

>>19790994
implying i need to be a christian to poke fun at 'le hebrew language' moron above

>> No.19791026

>>19791004
Shoo christer

>> No.19791143

>>19790071
you use the tools the tools do not use you.

>> No.19791200

>>19791143
What are the best tools?
I don't know if I should stick to the pali canon methods, or learn about tibetan buddhism and tantric methods like the dharmas of naropa. I'm kind of lost regarding praxis

>> No.19791229

>>19791200
>What are the best tools?
that's for you to decide, not everybody needs the same things. The potter doesn't need the same tools as the carpenter.

>> No.19791241

>>19790932
>See >>19790548, >>19790553
See what? Those two posters are wrong. Can you not into google?

>> No.19791246

>>19791241
Saying something doesn't make it true, christer.

>> No.19791252

>>19791229
The vajrayana practices are supposed to be much faster and more effective, right? So in which cases would someone knowingly choose to go for less efficient methods?

>> No.19791281
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19791281

>>19789842
>>19789886
>Dhammapada
It's such garbage. One might as well read ad copy from a midsized used car dealership. Socrates' yes-men are more imaginative. I'm surprised even the peasants made retarded by frequent malnourishment found it convincing.

>> No.19791286

>>19791281
Unequivocally filtered

>> No.19791360

>>19791200
Both paths teach a different ultimate goal to strive for. The Pali canon teaches the path to being an Arahant, while Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism teach you to become a Buddha.
I think it's better to stick with the Pali canon because the later texts teach a lot of stuff that contradicts what we actually know the Buddha taught. The idea that the Buddha taught people a less efficient method in the Pali canon doesn't make any sense to me.

>> No.19791377

>>19791360
>The idea that the Buddha taught people a less efficient method in the Pali canon
This is a good point. Vajrayana practicioners would say that they have secret methods that the Buddha didn't openly teach because they would be dangerous to normies, but either way, maybe the Buddha only taught methods for arahantship but not buddhahood, but the former is good enough for me.
When you say the Pali canon, are you talking only about methods explicitly outlined in the suttas, or also about Abhidharma stuff?

>> No.19791384

>>19791246
You're right, so the picture is true.

>> No.19791396

>>19791384
The picture is false much like christianity as a whole

>> No.19791400

>>19791286
I see your problem. You are a malnourished dalit. I didn't say Buddhism was crap, just that book.

>> No.19791408

>>19791400
>just that book.
As I said: filtered
If you feel nothing from the Dhammapada you're most likely an icchantika

>> No.19791464

>>19790500
Go worship your demon somewhere else

>> No.19791472

>>19791396
So what is false about that picture?

>> No.19791478

>>19791472
The text

>> No.19791479

>>19791408
Yeah I just finished my sixth day of fasting this month because I'm a hedonist. Good catch. Give it up bro, I've read better Warhammer 40k 4chan posts.

>> No.19791486
File: 56 KB, 498x334, sure hope that was ironic.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19791486

>>19791479
>that post

>> No.19791487

is there a book like guenons introduction to hindu doctrines but for buddhism

>> No.19791494

>>19791487
People sometimes recommend Evola's book but he tries hard to make Buddhism fit into his framework instead of writing an impartial treatise on it.
Some people also recommend Coomaraswamy as the Traditionalist with the best take on Buddhism but I haven't read him so I can't say.

>> No.19791503

>>19791486
Oh a frog poster. You must be 18 or older to post here.

>> No.19791510

>>19791360
>The idea that the Buddha taught people a less efficient method in the Pali canon doesn't make any sense to me.
As Buddhism spread to different countries it had to be expressed differently. That's what is really underneath all the claims to legitimate different sets of texts. I recommend reading as broadly as possible before coming to some abstractly sectarian position. It is not as if the nikayas go unmentioned in Mahayana either.

>> No.19791511

>>19791503
You don't get to make posts about others being underageb& when you unironically write shit like this >>19791479

>> No.19791520

>>19790034
>Rhinoceros sutta is the best
I'm surprised there are people here that aware of that one

>> No.19791523

>>19791487
Stcherbatsky is one of the better secondary sources, has books on the concepts of nirvana and dharma, which are the essential features of Buddhism. Avoid Californians

>> No.19791524

>>19791520
It's one of the most well known suttas though.

>> No.19791574
File: 3.67 MB, 2712x5224, 1557030737041.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19791574

>>19789842
Start meditating instead of reading. I'm not experienced, but what I read was In The Buddha's Words (Bikkhu Boddhi), With Each and Every Breath, then Right Concentration. I believe this is the best way to start, because the most important thing is to start a good practice of meditation, and these 3 will give you everything you need to know to start. I circled them in pic related. Reading and knowledge is very important, but what good would it be, if you do not put it into practice? And maybe you have been, I'm just making sure. It goes without saying, that it is always a good thing to learn, and you can you should continue reading as a part of your studies. But simply be careful not to fall down the rabbit hole of reading too much while neglecting practice. That's why the 3 books I chose on here are directly what one can get alot out of to improve their meditation practice. But you can start meditating right away, which would be ideal. Already begin to practice the habit, even just 10 minutes on waking up every day. Don't go for an absurd amount, because then you will get frustrated, and give up altogether. First, just make it a habit. You have no idea how many people go 'Oh yeah, I can meditate for half an hour a day, easy.' And then they completely fail. So to start, 10 minutes as a part of your morning routine. If you cannot even do that, then do 5 minutes separately twice throughout the day. People nowadays have lost the ability to focus, so when you completely remove all stimulation, time begins to pass much slower. Me personally, I am ADHD, and my work and daily job requires constant DOING. Even when I am resting, it is always reading or some sort of information absorption. I am always working towards something, working at something. So to completely stop, was a huge shock to me at first. First, you must learn to focus. Something that will improve your meditation, is learning to focus. Focusing on one task in particular, for extended amounts of time. Now that I am here, I might as well give you some more quick tips on what worked for me. Meditation requires you to be in the moment. "If you are depressed you are living in the past, if you are anxious then you are living in the future. If you are at peace, then you are living in the present" - Lao Tzu. He's not a Buddhist but the teaching echo's true regardless. You need to BE in the present moment as you are meditating. A good beginner's way to do this is to observe your breath, as you breath in and breath out. You don't need to actually count anything, it's not a breathing exercise. It is simply to observe your breath. Maybe if you have the opportunity to do it outside, sometimes the sounds of nature can help. For example, this is why people like the idea of meditating by waterfall, because the sound of the water is at each instant moment, always drawing one towards the present, if that makes sense. It's also why observing your breath can be so affective.

>> No.19791573

>>19791478
What's wrong exactly? Can you say what translation is wrong and how to translate it correctly?

>> No.19791579

>>19791573
Are you the epistemological weight guy? You write like an autist

>> No.19791599

>>19790079
you are a newfag and also gay

>> No.19791606

>>19791599
Yeah I know it's you guenonfag, and I know the pasta, but you're still an iphoneposter and have consistently shit takes.

>> No.19791614

>>19791384
>christer has his mind absolutely blown because his jewish book has made up people in it whose names spell a sentence when they're put together
>meanwhile eastern religions are working on ending suffering for all sentient beings
I simply cannot take abrahamism seriously

>> No.19791647

>>19791579
I don't know him. Are you going to point out what's wrong with the picture?

>> No.19791649

>>19791647
The translations are incorrect.
>spoonfeed me
Google it. Now leave

>> No.19791675

>>19791573
Christianity has nothing to be debated precisely it is purely dogmatic and not reached through any sort of intuition or understanding of experience/phenomena. It is wholly and entirely based on the exegesis of texts because no one else is allowed to become a Christ in the way one becomes a Buddha. The experience is non-reproducible—only the contract or covenant with God is renewable, through affirmations of creed and/or upholding of morals.

>> No.19791694
File: 2.71 MB, 3000x7000, Select-buddhist-texts.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19791694

>>19791574
Next, upon starting especially, it is natural that you will have lots of thoughts always intruding into your head. Especially as the lifestyles we live, it can be very difficult to clear your head. Even among experienced meditators, they will naturally have thoughts sometimes enter their heads. There is a trick to this. Do NOT try to go against them. If you occupy your mind with "don't think, don't think, don't think about it", then this is like pressing the gas and brake pedal on a car simultaneously. The harder you try not to think about something, the more it's going to fill your mind and draw your focus away. The trick is, to imagine a river. Whenever a thought enters your mind, acknowledge the thought. I'm serious. "Yes, I am worried about my school, or my job. Yes, these are very important obligations, that are occupying my mind. Once I am done with my meditation practice, I have the entire day to get to it. However for the time being, I am going to clear my mind of it, in order to take the 10 minutes, to properly focus on my meditation." Different things work for different people. You might not say it exactly like that, but see what works for you. I like to visualize a river. Whenever a thought comes along 'Wow that's something embarrassing that happened a while ago", I see the thought, it came to me down the river of my thoughts, and here I see it. I acknowledge that I had the thought, and decide not to spend any more time on it. I send it down the river, and continue with my practice. "Oh and another thought comes: 'What about this game, tv, social media, internet, phone?', at the time being, I am meditating, I can worry about such things after my practice of meditation is over. At the moment, I want to give complete priority of my focus to my practice of meditation. And deeming it unimportant I send it down the river. ' The emphasis is on isolating yourself from your thoughts, and acknowledge them. As difficult as it may be, you must try to do this with all of them. However, keep in mind that I am a beginner, I am no expert, but this is what worked for me.

At the end of it all, I didn't end up sticking with any of the Eastern traditions, but I certainly found my journey to be an amazing experience. Best of luck to you OP on your journey, I hope you find what you are searching for!

Also, here's another chart. I can't vouch for it's quality, but I also found it on the lit charts website

>> No.19791696

>>19791694
>I didn't end up sticking with any of the Eastern traditions
Where are you now?

>> No.19791705

>>19791696
You read everything I wrote in 25 seconds??? 14:45:05 --- 14:45:32
I will respond to you, but first I want to address something else in the thread, and I might have to leave for a bit, but when I get back, if the thread is still up, then I will reply

>> No.19791725

>>19791649
I have googled every word and it is correct.
Can you show me one place where mistake is?
>>19791675
You are very ignorant about Christianity. And from the way you try to reason I see that you are a failed Buddhist too. You think that you finally found it because you had slight sensation that it clicked with you, but instead of following that curiousity wholeheartedly, you build your pseudo-Buddhist identity on negeating everything else that you're not even familiar with and taking pride in it. You are lost.
> it is purely dogmatic and not reached through any sort of intuition or understanding of experience/phenomena
Wrong, not only Orthodoxy teaches the opposite, you also show that you don't really know what dogma is. You brought your materialistic definition of dogma with yourself into Buddhism, but that is not what any school of Buddhism teaches.
>because no one else is allowed to become a Christ in the way one becomes a Buddha
Theosis. "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."

>> No.19791727

>>19789842
The material world rules, anyone who disagrees is a bitch

>> No.19791729

>>19791694
>Whenever a thought enters your mind, acknowledge the thought.
that's the gist of the first portion of the Maha satipathana sutta in the Dighna Nikaya but it's true of all Buddhism from Theravada to Tantra. The object you are grasping, this thought of yours, has been deformed by ignorance. Many people are not cut out to be their own priest and psychologist, hence meditative practice can be challenging. Meditation (and yoga more broadly) can also become deformed itself, uncoupled from any soteriological aim and used as a therapeutic technique (e.g. corporate mindfulness). There's the book McMindfulness, but it is highly repetitive of the much better and more concise essay by the author. Trungpa's Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism goes after the same thing from a more dated perspective (even several decades ago Buddhism was appropriated from as a sort of chic thing to do rather than being part of a genuine spiritual path)

>> No.19791730

>>19791725
>I have googled every word and it is correct.
You're lying. The wrong ones have already been pointed out ITT. This will be my last response to you as even if the words were right I still wouldn't care about christianity, refer to >>19791614

>> No.19791736

>>19791725
>it's an ortholarper zoomer projects his spiritual materialism onto other people episode
Refer to >>19790994

>> No.19791744
File: 157 KB, 960x960, 1591462856465.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19791744

>>19791725
>my idiosyncratic orientalist reading of "Orthodox Christianity" makes it somehow less of a legalistic negotiation with God to be leased an apartment in Heaven for eternity purely based on nailing the verbiage and creed
ok christer

>> No.19791756

https://archive.org/details/themasterthemonksandiawesternwomanexperinceofzengeraital_144_R

>> No.19791761
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19791761

>>19791744
But bro the names of made up people form a sentence that's vaguely reminiscent of Jesus' life, can't you understand the sheer epistemological weight of this?

>> No.19791763

At what page should I start reading Red Pine's version of Heart Sutra? Most of this is just geographical and historical background.

>> No.19791765

>>19791730
So you can't point out any mistakes. As for the ones you say have been pointed out ITT, you can google those names yourself.

>> No.19791774

>>19791252
>So in which cases would someone knowingly choose to go for less efficient methods?
well you said "supposed to be much faster" meaning you don't know until you experience it. Personally my mother raised me to find my own path and wanted me to explore different writings and teachings until I found something that worked for me. But it's really up to you, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Just find something your comfortable with, nobody can tell you what to do, they can only provide you with the basics.

>> No.19791778

>>19791761
In a weird way it's like he's trying to do a mandala of Hebrew characters to produce Jesus. But in Buddhism such a technique is supposed to get you to non-duality, relativity, emptiness. Instead of clinging to a "bible" you'd understand no doctrine was ever absolutely contained it. But for the religion of lawyers it is exactly the opposite, you are preparing to sue god for your eternal life if he does not fulfill his contractual obligations.

>> No.19791783

>>19791736
I had been practicing Tantra for 7 years priorly and had rather profound results. I am from Russia, so your larping projections don't apply to me.

>> No.19791785
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19791785

Never go full retard.

>> No.19791794

>>19791783
Seven years down the drain since in the end you chose the most false teaching you could've possibly gone with, putting aside scientology I suppose

>> No.19791807
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19791807

C-christbros this can't be true

>> No.19791814

>>19791794
Well if you say so.

>> No.19791820

>>19791778
>do a mandala of Hebrew characters to produce Jesus.
And he doesn't understand that even if it were true it wouldn't change a thing since the Bible is to be taken entirely on faith. This is the thing I could never understand and still don't get, why you would base the meaning of everything around the petty squabbles of desert tribes from millennia ago.

>> No.19791831

>>19791807
https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Lamech.html
>>19791785
https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Enoch.html

>> No.19791839

>>19791831
>proving yourself wrong
Alright then?

>> No.19791840

>>19791820
What meditation should I do to attain siddha of deciding what other people understand and don't understand?

>> No.19791844

>>19791839
I proved myself right. Whoever has eyes, let them see. Haven't you said that you're not going to reply me anymore like a few posts ago? Are you a woman?

>> No.19791847

>>19791840
You should work on attaining the Jhana of neither seething nor coping

>> No.19791857
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19791857

>>19791844
>uuuuh well yeah that's not the exact definition b-but whoever has eyes let them see

>> No.19791861

>>19789842
Read and apply happiness beyond thought by Gary Weber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVqANXVTLN4 https://jeffwarren.org/articles/neuroscienceofsuffering/

>> No.19791865
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19791865

>>19791847
The pāramitā of sneed

>> No.19791866

>>19791847
Then why do you still display your seething?

>> No.19791868

>>19791866
I see you are still stuck on the Jhana of projecting

>> No.19791871

>>19791857
It has the same definitions as in the picture.

>> No.19791878

>>19791868
But it was you who projected here >>19791820
Do you do any practice or you only participate in circle jerk in those threads?

>> No.19791883
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19791883

>christer still obsessing about the definitions of hebrew words that might spell a phrase that kind of somewhat more or less indicates the OT could've slightly foreshadowed something along the lines of what allegedly happened during Jesus' life as recorded by the totally historically reliable gospels
>meanwhile buddhists are trying to stop the wheel of Samsara
How primitive a mind abrahamism requires.

>> No.19791891

>>19791878
>no u
>doesn't understand what projection means
Stick to the bibble threads bub.

>> No.19791895

>>19791883
>wheel of Samsara
do you have a single fact to back that up

>> No.19791898

>>19791895
>volcano demon
do you have a single fact to back that up

>> No.19791903
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19791903

>>19791865
>pic
Was gnosticism a western attempt at Buddhism despite the judaic influences? They seem otherwise compatible.

>> No.19791915
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19791915

>confronted to the pettiness of his primitive superstitions, the christer draws upon his semitic roots and disingenuously resorts to crypto-physicalist pilpul he would otherwise vehemently disavow in a desperate attempt to save face

>> No.19791945

>>19791903
From what literary remains there are of gnosticism it appears to have taken up the notion of the demiurge or creative principle proceded from the one of Platonism and identified it with materiality as something to be negated, something dualistically evil. Buddhism does not blame someone for creating a world that makes one suffer, rather it is a false view of the momentariness of phenomena which produces an affect of suffering for the sentient being. In other words, you are the demiurge, you are the one whose actions continue to ripen into effects that make up your becoming of pure or impure states

>> No.19791955

>>19791945
>you are the demiurge
iirc that's how Jung interpreted it.
Regarding dualism, early Buddhism seemed to draw a clear duality between Samsara and Nibbana, between conditioned phenomena and the unconditioned. Not to stretch things too far just for the sake of syncretism but I think there are more parallels then just rejection of the material world.

>> No.19791960

>>19791895
Samsara is just a pre-Buddhistic pan-Indian view of life as cyclical. To argue life is not cyclical or dependent upon the actions of previous life I would suggest, is your burden. I would be interested to see what non-nihilistic or world-affirming conclusion you come forth with

>> No.19791977

>>19791955
There might be more of a connection with earlier schools than the later explicitly non-dualistic schools (e.g. Madhyamaka, Yogacara) but this would be difficult to prove conclusively (connection rather than similarity, for many things are similar). For instance, in another thread not too long ago someone had suggested the Sarvastivadins were closest to the gnostics. Our best source for their beliefs would probably be the Abhidharmakosa commentary by Vasubandhu, which I haven't read (it is quite long and the English translation is also dated and based on the French and Tibetan). Sarvastivada Buddhism also arose in the northwestern corner of India, in Gandhara, where there had been centuries of both Greek and Persian influence, not unlike the gnosticism of the eastern Roman provinces that was at odds with Neoplatonism and Judaeo-Christianity. So it makes for an interesting theory at least.

>> No.19791980

>>19791574
You're right anon, for our overstimulated minds meditation is extremely difficult. I can't seem to break 10 minutes even when I have a good mindset. Yesterday I did 10 minutes but had to stop because I was getting drowsy and almost falling asleep. It's definitely difficult.

>> No.19791991

>>19791977
>Our best source for their beliefs
Most sources on early Buddhism have disappeared (been destroyed), right?

>> No.19792100

>>19791991
Well even the Sarvastivadins are like 500 years after Buddha. Early is a relative term. But it's not so much that there was necessarily destruction but that scrolls/parchment/paper/literal leaves of plants don't have the best shelf life in India. If no one cares to keep making copies it's gone, and since Buddhists believe you can derive merit from copying texts, you wouldn't copy texts you don't agree with. So oldest texts that extant copies exist of are 1. all from caves in various parts of Central Asia along the Silk Road which survived the climate better and 2. a lot of that material is just sutras, not statements of creed or philosophical treatises etc. because in many cases different schools were disputing what the sutras meant i.e. anyone of any sect could have copied them and would have reason to, unlike say shastras about what the texts meant in a sectarian sense. Vasubandhu, even as the main source for the Sarvastivada-Abhidharma, is actually criticizing their views—they are preserved only for that purpose, which is the case for not only that school but some earlier schools as well. It becomes a contentious, maybe interminable question of reconstruction as to what non-living Buddhist schools were actually like

>> No.19792166

>Follow not the vulgar way; live no in heedlessness; hold not false views; linger not long in worldly existence.
>Arise CHICKEN! Do not be heedless! Lead a righteous life. The righteous live happily both in this world and the next.

>> No.19792174

>>19791861
Thank you for sharing this anon. I just applied the methods described and, surprisingly, felt immediate relief.

>> No.19792225

Is stream entry as a layman a realistic goal?

>> No.19792239
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19792239

>>19789842

>> No.19792251

Its all a meme. Any of you motherfuckers would have easily followed buddhas footsteps 3000 years ago, what the fuck else were ypu supposed to do? How can i be free when in 3 clics i can see my crush her insta story going out with chad who will drop her after fucking her brains out and she will still want her?

I have read all that crap, i have medicated, its all bullshit. You can go and try to live off the grid, but even by that point you will sti have tasted the glories off the modern world. You cannot escape. Shit like naruto unironically prepares you better for the darkness of this world thn some buddhist bullcrap. Buddha today would be fucking whores and snorting coke everyday and have his own bullshit tv channel about how you can escape this materialistic world.

Give up. Watch good movies, read good books, go run, do some push ups, go on some vacations, get a girl, make a kid, fall out of love and seperate, do drugs or dont, fuck whores or dont. It is 2022, not 600 bc.

>> No.19792269

>>19792251
>It is 2022, not 600 bc.
everything you describe existed in some form in both time periods, so the teachings are as relevant as ever

>> No.19792280
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19792280

>>19790606
Nirvana is an experience (dhamma). It's just the experience of the same five khandhas as before but unafflicted with self-view or any gratuitous notion of "mine"

Hence the sotapanna's declaration : "Everything that is subject to arising is subject to cessation."

Having seen phenomena as such, he recognized that his notion of "mine" with regard to any phenomena could only come to be on account of the phenomena existing beforehand. In other words phenomena come first and the sense of self comes second structurally. In other words, everything you can experience is subject to being taken away at a moments notice by the various forces that you have absolutely no control over. Therefore any sense of identity regarding an experience is seen through ; This is not mine, this is not my self, this is not who I am. Even the notion "I am", being seen as an arisen phenomenon, is seen in this way. Even a certain equanimity that can be attained on contemplating this for long enough is also seen as merely an experienced dhamma, which is presently conditioned on various external factors. The fully awakened arahant abandons all experience because all experience is simply presented to one, so to speak, not created by oneself. And since it is presented, it can be just as easily no longer presented. Seeing this, contemplating this, Passion regarding phenomena fades out, and what remains is phenomena, untainted by clinging. Untainted by the gratuitous notion "I am this." When phenomena simply exist as such, e.g. when pleasure is just pleasure and pain is just pain without craving, without ignorance, without notions of Self in regard to them , this is the cessation of dukkha.

>> No.19792283

>>19792269
Buddha didnt have an endless supply of pawg bbc porn.

Anyway, by definition if you want to be free is to close your computer. Modern life is about balancing easy and good brain chemicals. Watching a movie is easy, but go on a run for the good ones.

>> No.19792290

>>19790755
Of course you're bored and sad, did you think it would just be easy? Renunciation is only the beginning

>> No.19792298

>>19792283
He didn't need porn he would have had literal female property he could exploit like a toaster oven.

>> No.19792300

>>19792251
>Give up. Watch good movies, read good books, go run, do some push ups, go on some vacations, get a girl, make a kid, fall out of love and seperate, do drugs or dont, fuck whores or dont.
Do you know who Ikko Sojun is? He said all of these things. In fact, there were quite a few Buddhists who were eccentric like this.

>> No.19792302

>>19791991
The earliest source is the Pali Canon.

The Pali Canon is a literary canon in the Pali language consisting of the written down oral tradition that came about due to monks memorizing the Buddhas teachings. When the Buddha drew near to dying, he gathered two disciples, Ananda and Upali. The Buddha had hundreds of disciples and of them these two had the best memories. The Buddha then gave them a cliff-notes version of everything that he'd ever taught, in a format more conducive to memorization. Ananda memorized the Sutta Pitaka, and Upali memorized the Vinaya Pitaka (roughly, the religion and monastic codes). Other monks memorized a lot too, but these two are the "sources". They sat down with the Buddha, and went through 40 years worth of teachings together, such that everything they memorized was correct and as the Buddha wanted. The third Tipitaka ("Three-Basket") of the Pali Canon is the Abhidharma (a sort of "Buddhist Theory of Everything"). This was taught to the Gods during the day, and then at night the Buddha would come down and tell Shariputra (AKA Sariputta) what he'd discussed with the Gods. Shariputra then took these teachings and taught them to his disciples.

The first two Tipitakas are the Buddhas words. Stylistically, this is just a fact. Whoever composed the first two Tipitakas was the same person (or same collection of individuals), living around 550BC, and they were fluent in Sanskrit and Pali. The Abhidharma, however, is very clearly a composite text, where things are put in the Buddhas mouth, but they're composed by different people. This is because it's a bunch of different people relaying the teachings of one dude who was taught them by taught by the Buddha. Western academics argue that the Abhidharma is a monastic furtherance of the Buddha's teachings by the first generation of post-Buddha monks and obviously reject the "teaching Buddhism to Thor" theory, of course, but the basic synopsis (the first generation of monks after the Buddha's day codified a bunch of expanded theory) is the same (orthodox Theravada history holds that Shariputra's disciples gathered up and collated the Abhidharma on their own).

>> No.19792323

>>19792298
Exactly. Back in those times you could just rape people as you wanted. I mean they still burn hoes in india. Those people shit on streets. What they do 3k years ago? You wake up, eat some fruits, lay all day and do fucking nothing, fucking dinosaurs existed back then. Fuck those dumb indians and their bullshit

>>19792300
No idea, i will look him up. I just despise that route that goes all about freeing yourself from this world and enterinb thr cumzone or something. Its all a scam that was maybe relevant 3k years ago or if you are still shitting on the streets in india.

>> No.19792328

>>19792302
It should be noted that we KNOW that the Buddhists were around for Ashoka (roughly 250BC), and we know that they had a large body of literature, and we know that there were many Buddhists at this time. We have references from post-Ashoka to parts of the Pali Canon and Buddhist teachings. EVERYTHING before Ashoka in India is super murky and reliant on texts that are only written down much later. Ashoka's Edicts are the foundation of writing in India. The Buddhists (understandably) got sick of memorizing all of this stuff, and started writing down bits and pieces on leaves and treebark. These obviously don't last. We know that they did this because we have sources saying that they did this, we just lack the actual leaves and treebark scriptures. To counter this, the Buddhists just get really fucking good at memorizing the Pali Canon

The Mahayana practice of having "discrete sutras" comes out of this period, with the Mahayana more or less starting with Monks realizing that these memorization-conducive sutras are actually really fucking clunky, and that they could be condensed down (and thus be far more portable when written). The end result is stuff like the Heart Sutra, which summarizes the Pali Canon (or so the Mahayana claim, and the Theravada only disagree with a few lines of this text), and can be fit in a 4chan post.

The Pali Canon is officially carved into stone (literally, it's carved into a massive series of pillars in Sri Lanka) around 50BC, but the Pali Canon had actually been codified 500 years prior, and we know from earlier texts that at least around 250BC "the Buddhist Canon in the Pali language" was a thing.

>> No.19792330
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19792330

>>19790791
Because if you don't like suffering (and nobody does) and you honestly reflect for long enough, you will see that the temporary delight in temporary phenomena is exactly the flip side of the coin of suffering. It's not easy to see that when you are getting what you want which is why it's important to practice sense restraint, so you can see how you feel when you don't get what you want. From the perspective of obvious suffering of losing what you love, losing your senses, your family, your safety and security, it's easy to see why you shouldn't have delighted in those things. When you're well fed and fat and lazy, when you don't have to work hard to survive, most people just lay down and forget and become indulgent. Like a chicken that is going to be slaughtered, but instead of escaping she goes for the nice chicken feed, because if she escaped she would have to find her own food.

If you're getting complacent you need to remind yourself of the horror of samsara, the horror of suffering, being devoured alive in the animal realm, or being born as a lower human in the third world for example, starving every day. full of parasites and born with one leg

>> No.19792345

>>19792323
>No idea, i will look him up. I just despise that route that goes all about freeing yourself from this world and enterinb thr cumzone or something
I dunno what you mean. This isn't really a thing in Zen. Zen Masters mocked people for doing that to achieve enlightenment. The whole mediation, zazen, and dogmatic asceticism was frowned upon. Being ordinary was encouraged.

>> No.19792352

>>19791241
>>19792345
>The whole mediation, zazen, and dogmatic asceticism was frowned upon. Being ordinary was encouraged.
Moronic and uninformed take

>> No.19792386

>>19792352
>Moronic and uninformed take
Not at all; you're just one those dumb asses who fell for it.

>> No.19792417

>>19792386
>t. Guy who thinks he's so smart that he doesn't have to practice self discipline

We get a lot like you and they usually fizzle out in the first couple of weeks

>> No.19792424

>>19792417
Zen isn't about self discipline, retard. Its about living autonomously. If you need discipline; that's a personal problem for you. I'm sorry your retarded. That's never been a problem for me because I've not autistic like you. And that isn't a problem for me to solve.

>> No.19792436

>>19792424
I'm sure you're very enlightened, enlightened enough to shit fling and get into arguments on 4chan. Take care now.

>> No.19792446

>>19792417
>We
I'm not stupid enough to show up to a temple. Too many "monasteries" end up being ran by sex pests, and rapists, like you. Degenerates like you use your faux authority to woo the impressionable and naive. This is a recurring problem with Buddhism going back as far as the Tang Dynasty. I know better.

>> No.19792449

>>19792436
Enlightenment is something you have to seek now? Oh lord, you are so far behind.

>> No.19792456

>>19792417
>>19792436
Stop making it so obvious your understanding of Buddhism comes from New Age garbage

>> No.19792464

>>19792446
>>19792449
>>19792456
Absolutely seething

>> No.19792491
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19792491

Threadly reminder to avoid Californian textual sources

>> No.19792656

How many of you anons so well versed in Buddhism (more than I may ever be) are close to reaching Enlightenment or whatever you call it? Is it peaceful? I want to embark on the adventure but if learning all just only makes you a learned 4chan poster than I should look elsewhere. Maybe you have neglected meditation? Maybe I should just do CBT? Or find a boulder that occupies my constant awareness until I die?

>> No.19792661

>>19792656
(forgive the dumb errors, didn't proofread)

>> No.19792686

>>19792656
Try the mind illuminated

>> No.19792823
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19792823

Buddhism and Christian mysticism are generally both passive in the sense that they involve a laying of oneself out into a state of abandon and consequently letting flood in whatever happens to flood in, whether that be the light of God or something much closer to matter..

The metaphysician whether Hindu, Neoplatonist, Islamic, Taoist etc is by contrast the hero who takes on a more active and experiential method of pursuing realization by directing penetrating into the nature of things.

>> No.19792869

>>19792823
>who takes on a more active and experiential method of pursuing realization by directing penetrating into the nature of things

except that wouldn't be the "nature of things" but your own bias, if you don't learn to create peace inside yourself, get insight into your mental mechanism and conect with the world, the only thing you'll find if you try to take that "active method" is your own delusions and a god that's just a projection of your own narcissism and egolatry

>> No.19792874

>>19789842

dhamma talks on youtube are pretty useful, it's good to listen to contemporary monks and their ways to practice the dhamma

>> No.19792907

>>19792823
>realization by directing penetrating into the nature of things
This sounds like the turgid English translation of the title of any number of Buddhist shastras. You just have some axe to grind such that you favor the tardlarp orientalist school of metaphysics which arbitrarily excludes Buddhism and Christianity to distinguish itself against theosophists. Neither group has a good understanding of Buddhism in any case since they both want to assimilate everything into a doctrine of eternal truth of all religions.*

*religions the dilettante likes based on his exegetical method

>> No.19792944

>>19792907
this

>> No.19792949

>>19791980
It's not hard for me personally. For example, I meditated for 7-9 hrs for three days at my Zen center and would go often. However, sitting in half lotus position for over an hour fucks with my knee.

>> No.19793181

Reminder that Advaita won

>> No.19793220
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19793220

>>19793181
>no im NOT a crypto-buddhist please read the brahmasutrabhasya it's about brahman not sunyata

>> No.19793433

>>19793220
every time an advaita fga tries to explain wha brahma according to shankara, they always end up describing sunyata, their whole argument is "it can't be sunyata because is god"

>> No.19793447

>>19792686
Interesting, I'll check it out

>> No.19793456

>>19793433
Yeah this was a huge relief to a lot of the theologians, that they could just rip off Buddhist scholastics and use their own strategy (the Madhyamaka denial of every view except 'not having a view') against them by leveling up their jeetology to an absolutism, but took centuries before they could pull it off. Since Buddhists generally won't affirm an atman and the intellectual culture was atrophied none were willing to say, "isn't your brahman-atman just a rip off of my doctrine?" Other Hindus would say that to the Advaitans since they were allowed to accuse you of being a Buddhist as a slur. But no Buddhist would accuse a Hindu of agreeing with him. We can do so because we are so removed from the issue, and even in Tibet there were schools that almost sounded like AV even though they didn't know what that was and got there independently e.g. Jonang. I am oversimplifying, but once you decide there's a non-discursive absolute, you are really limited in what you can call it, "[de]void [of]" is pretty good as far as Buddhism goes but AV's "actually it's atman-brahman and everything else is maya" is a bit convoluted.

>> No.19793480

>>19793447
NTA but if you find TMI too technical I recommend starting with "With Each and Every Breath" instead.

>> No.19793481

Genuine question for Buddhists and Gnostics, why is reality suffering and why is suffering necessarily bad?
Doesn't suffering in reality presuppose there is something in reality that is not suffering? I understand why suffering is not desirable, but I consider it just a part of reality that must be experienced. I understand not wanting to exist, which then is a desire to not exist which is thus attachment and therefore suffering, thus enlightenment is impossible, no?
I see the question asked, is not the desire to be free from desire not itself desire and thus you can never be free from desire or samsara?, be refuted off hand without any explanation that isn't read this or that sutra, no concise explanation.

>> No.19793491

>>19793481
Reality is unborn, suffering is delusion. Stop relying on Californians to explain Buddhism

>> No.19793493

>>19790311
We got too cocky, lotus bros

>> No.19793497

>>19793491
Elaborate

>> No.19793498

>>19793480
Oh cool, I'll probably start with this

>> No.19793510

>>19793497
It's very basic stuff. You can read Buddhist texts themselves or indologists like Stcherbatsky. I would not rely on some over-medicated westerner who does breathing exercises because they don't like their work/life balance.

>> No.19793520

>>19789886
thats good shit

>> No.19793530

>>19793510
No I just posed a question to a group that I have fundamental disagreements with and asked not to receive the non answer I'm currently receiving, I have little desire to read something that I feel is hogwash with no substance

>> No.19793564

>>19793530
>I have little desire to read something that I feel is hogwash with no substance
Typical /lit/ poster. Got it, not worth giving you an answer then after all

>> No.19793625

>>19793481
>I understand not wanting to exist
buddhist don't think we shouldn't exist, that's aversion to existence, one of the 3 poisons of the mind
>why is reality suffering
reality oisn't suffering, reality has suffering

>why is suffering necessarily bad?

depends on your definition of bad, if by bad you mean: something that shoulnd't exist, then buddhism doesn't think suffering is bad, if by bad you mean:something to be overcome, then yes buddhism think is bad, as to why is something to be overcome, pretty simple answer, because suffering itself presents itself as something to be overcome, suffering is the aspect of our minds that tell us we need to change and evovle, it's his pourpose on existence

>> No.19794165

>>19793481
>is not the desire to be free from desire not itself desire and thus you can never be free from desire or samsara
Not an expert, but the desire to be free from desire could be your final desire before you're rid of them all

>> No.19794204

>>19794165

the old "gotcha moment" a ot of people want to force with that lame: you desire to end desire! is just a bad play on words and only someone who knows nothing about buddhism can think
desire on itself is nothing, is just will, buddhism doesn't wants to end desire, buddhism wants to end craving(tanha)
which is a particular form of desire, that arise from a wrong view about reality, that is, that things are permanent and fixed, when you desire something to be eternal, you'll end up sufering, because nothing is eternal
the desire to get rid of suffering and craving is called "chanda"
so when you say, you deisre to end desire, what you should say is you have the interest (chanda) to end craving(tanha)
so now the quote doesn't seem all that contradictory

>> No.19794311

>>19794204
Thanks for explaining, that makes sense.

>> No.19794382
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19794382

>>19790110
what is this faggotry about being le happy? what does that mean exactly?

>> No.19794389

>>19794382
YOU VILL BELIEVE IN ZEE ETERNAL UNCHANGING ATMAN AND YOU VILL BE HAPPY

>> No.19794403

>>19794382
the ultimate metaphysical cope
all the bad in the world is just an illusion and all the good in the world is just me
the negation of life on his most pure form
a perfect myth of consolation
a metaphysical world and god designed to evade the fear of death and changefor people who can't handle cange and death

>> No.19794489

>>19791883
What are you doing to stop the wheel of Samsara? Seething at christers?

>> No.19794509

>>19791898
But you are the one who cries about dogmatism of Christianity, while taking pride in how your world view is based on discerning experience.

>> No.19794526

>>19794509
>denounce dogmatism
>take pride in a experience based world view

nothing wrong with that to be honest

>> No.19794542

>>19794489
The ones seething ITT aren't buddhists, bro
>>19794509
christianity:
>the book is true because... it just is, ok?! better believe it or you're going to the Lake of Fire™ for eternity
buddhism:
>the book is true but don't take my word for it, meditate and you'll get it — or don't, that's fine too

>> No.19794566

Are there some good dhamma talks aside from Thanissaro's?

>> No.19794572
File: 202 KB, 606x731, 1609949155409.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19794572

>christer is sticking as a term
Based sons and daughters of noble houses, carry on with your skillful means

>> No.19794578

Real Buddhism:
>If the sleeve of your upper garment pass by more than an inch over the wrist the punishment is 8 billion kalpas in Hell

>> No.19794591

>>19794578
Where is this stated

>> No.19794599
File: 311 KB, 314x492, 8685.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19794599

>larper anxiously ctrl-F'ing the pittakas

>> No.19794618

>>19794578
You don't see the humor in that? Imagine you're a monk and you have these spartan precepts of conduct you need to follow to maintain this otherworldly reputation and impress laymen. Your robe is a little off. Someone goes, "hey fix that or it's another gajillion lives you'll need to live. You're not here to loaf off." And he's right. Take this life in which you have learned the teaching seriously. The vinaya rules are supposed to make it difficult to be a monk. Otherwise the monastery fills up with slobs. Which can happen. Depends on how rigorous people are. You've got to compete with all the other sramana movements, and the brahmins too.

>> No.19794623

>>19794403
>Genuine question for Buddhists and Gnostics, why is reality suffering and why is suffering necessarily bad?
Reality is suffering because its difficult to argue why guy would create a world where his people would suffer and allow evil to persist. Its logical to assume the Earth was not created by god, but by evil. Knowing this, the best course of action is prepare ourselves for the spiritual realm where evil no longer exists. Being is alive is a test; can you be good without succumbing to evil? Those who can will be rewarded. Suffering is bad because it is a demonic reminder of the nature of this world, and how truly unsavagable it is, and that true liberation is beyond flesh.

>> No.19794624

>>19794618
What are the odds that these rules, if they even exist (haven't seen any as extreme as what >>19794578 said), were made up by Gautama to ensure his monastic order wouldn't just become a NEET den a few years after his death?

>> No.19794631

>>19794624
How the fuck could anyone be a NEET in Buddha's day? Are you retarded? Neetdom is a modern phenomena, enabled by modern technology and agriculture.

>> No.19794632

>>19794623
Based gnosticbro but
>can you be good without succumbing to evil?
This is misleading: the most perniciously evil aspect of the world is that it is impossible to live without committing evil. Your very existence causes suffering and death upon other beings, from obvious things like procuring food to less obvious ones like unavoidably crushing insects and so on. The Manichaeans understood this.
To live is to partake in evil, but the gnostic mindset is to be repulsed at this status quo instead of accepting it.

>> No.19794633

>>19794624
That's exactly what they are for. You have to be mindful of every action you take. If you can't hack it go be a householder. That's what the earliest schools apparently thought, and it is clear from the sources there was a highly competitive religious environment, and that not every school of Buddhism or the non-Buddhist monastics and ascetics survived.

>> No.19794634

>>19794631
>How the fuck could anyone be a NEET in Buddha's day?
You seem to be the retarded one. You could just go around begging for alms and spend your days doing whatever. Don't embarrass yourself by pretending to know about things you're unfamiliar with

>> No.19794641
File: 201 KB, 866x635, 1629752717927.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19794641

>>19794631
NEETdom is the consumption of a surplus. Any society can produce free-loaders just by merit of functioning.

>> No.19794652

>>19794634
How fucking stupid do you have to be to believe this? Bandits, constant wars, constant famines were common place in Buddha's area. You couldn't go around begging without being robbed or killed. You didn't have electricity, you don't have food all the time, and you easily die from wild animals and disease. Being a NEET is nothing like living the rustic lifestyle of buddhists you fucking retard. God, you zoomers are so stupid. You really don't get how easier life is for you.

>> No.19794654

>>19794403
yes the jewish idea of a god is a cope. the funny thing is that you are a goyim, and yet you love jews and their jew stories

>> No.19794659

>>19794652
>You couldn't go around begging without being robbed or killed.
And yet thousands did it. Yes, they didn't have internet, but for all intents and purposes they were not in education, employment or training. Stop your irrational seething and just accept your are wrong instead of moving goalposts.

>> No.19794667

>>19794634
Hahahaha you're one of these retards who think monastery like the safe zones in Day Z. Monasteries were raided, often burned down by government authorities. They were filled with disease and smelly old people. People could barely eat. But you tell me that's a glorious, easy life? A life where many people died before they even got to your age. Lmao you fucking retard.

>> No.19794674

>>19794667
When did I bring up monasteries? As I said in >>19794667, stop boiling in rage for no reason, you're just wrong and no amount of throwing tantrums will change that.
This old "life in the past was absolute hell and everyone died young" myth shows you really don't know much about history. Instead of seething on the internet, read a history book.

>> No.19794676 [DELETED] 

>>19794659
>And yet thousands did it. Yes, they didn't have internet, but for all intents and purposes they were not in education, employment or training.
Because it was impossible you stupid fucking retard. How are you getting employed if have to worry about just having the basis necessities life you dumbass? You think people can just go to work without food? Without a place to work because a fucking a warlord burned your city to the ground? How are this fucking stupid? You think employment just happens naturally? You think schools could just magically exist without functioning government? The fuck nigger, are you really this stupid?

>> No.19794681

>>19794674
Stop being a stupid nigger who thinks monasteries were wonderful places to live, and that employment, and education were such easy to get necessities back then. You're so fucking stupid you believe education and employment back then were anything other than luxuries. To you, hunter and gathers were NEETS. You're a dumbass. I'm going to insult you; nobody ever be as stupid as you. Think before you post, retard.

>> No.19794686

>>19794676
Why are you so upset? Go take a breather, you're really embarrassing yourself.
>it was impossible
Making things up on the fly now. Contrary to your childish view of history, things back then weren't a complete hellish warzone everywhere, these events were localized and not commonplace.
I have no idea what about this is making you seethe so hard but if you're going to give yourself an aneurysm over your inaccurate understanding of history, you can just have the last word.
>>19794681
You are arguing with a strawman and absolutely boiling in rage over things I've never said. Reevaluate your life, you seem to be in a bad place

>> No.19794692

>>19794686
You're such a retard you believe that people who lived thousands of years ago had luxuries like employment and education. And that people were NEETs. Yes, an era where slavery, raiding, and famine were common - people all this time to be educated and have employment. No, of course you totally understand what life was like back then. You get all of your knowledge about history from 4chan and Call of Duty. Stupid nigger.

>> No.19794695
File: 9 KB, 208x240, tangping.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19794695

>getting mad at current NEETs isn't enough
>wagie is even getting mad at NEETs from thousands of years ago
kek

>> No.19794697 [DELETED] 

>>19794686
Kill yourself, nigger. Honestly, you are the dumbest nigger alive. Only a nigger would honestly think that NEETDOM is anything other than a modern phenomena. Don't pretend you being a nigger on welfare is the same as people who had to struggle just live another day.

>> No.19794701

>>19794695
>Wagie
There it goes, you are a NEET projection. Fucking nigger. Buddhism is slacking; if you want to slack, go be an atheist you bum nigger. Go be a tranny >>>/lgbt/

>> No.19794703

>>19794692
>>19794697
>everyone was poor in the past
>extremely obvious samefagging
Yeah I'm thinking >>19794695 is right. NEETs were always a privileged class, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and are projecting your insecurities about your intelligence on me. I hope you work out your mental illness

>> No.19794707

>>19794566
Anyone?

>> No.19794720
File: 128 KB, 800x1000, neetpill.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19794720

>the NEETs mere existence strikes fear, jealousy and seething hatred into the wagie's heart
we are truly the highest caste

>> No.19794731

>>19794566
Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero and yuttadhammo bhikkhu are two great dhamma teachers in my opinion, both of them have pretty dofferent ways to approach meditation, so it's kinda cool to explore their systems and arrive at your own conclusions

>> No.19794743

>>19794654
>the funny thing is that you are a goyim, and yet you love jews and their jew stories
nope, i'm not a christian

>> No.19794751

>>19794731
Thank you.
>ways to approach meditation
How many different ways of practicing samatha are there? I'm assuming you're not talking about vipassana since it was a later addition

>> No.19794783

>>19794526
I didn't say it's wrong. It was a response to anon, who instead of explaining Samsara proceeded into tu quoque, assuming therefore that Samsara is as dogmatic as his ignorant image of Christianity. Meanwhile Samsara is not even a dogma to behold to (many things involving it are though), but merely a description, a reference framework to help you orient, so questioning Samsara is akin to questioning natural numbers model. There's no need to argue for or against Samsara for a Buddhist.
>>19794542
>>the book is true because... it just is, ok?! better believe it or you're going to the Lake of Fire™ for eternity
Where does it say so?
Your ignorance stems from the fact that you confuse participation of the masses in a denomination with mysticism in which only a few people would be really interested. Then based on that you build your retarded strawmen. You compare the thoughts of masses of somple nominal Christians with the thoughts of Buddhist thinkers. That shows your insecurity.

>> No.19794786

>>19794783
>mysticism
Still based on the book, therefore disregarded. Your entire post is cope.

>> No.19794794

>>19794204
Was that so hard for everyone else to explain, thanks anon

>> No.19794810

It's funny how larpers on /lit/ will distance themselves from those they deem western buddhists while mocking christianity for its superstitions and dogmas. If they knew the first thing about eastern buddhism as practised irl, they'd know just how strictly they adhere to the rules and how big a role afterlife punishment plays in their lives. This is true for both thereveda and mahayana. Fairly recently I read an interview with a mahayanan celeb monk who told the story of the time he met a soap opera actress. She told him just how much buddhism means to her, he responded by explaining just how grave her sins were, by portraying lustful acts and revealing her body on tv shows beamed into millions of homes, she'd brought a terrifying amount of evil karma into the world. He was like: you silly goose you've just bought yourself a trillion years on lowest rungs of the wheel. The monk said something worth heeding: that his role wasn't to help the people of the world achieve nirvana, even the Buddha couldn't do that, instead the best they could do is try to prevent the blind masses from going further down the path of evil andbeing reborn as beasts or reborn in hell, hence their emphasis on morals in relation to karmic retribution. This moral aspect of buddhism is barely present in the west among western buddhists or larpers, the latter like their christian larper counterparts will spend infinity hours reading and arguing over theology and esoteric practices but couldn't hold to their respective precepts for a single measly day. As a layman, a non-monastic, it's actions not contemplation that must guide your Buddhism. Of course, you're an enlightened genius who can just dismiss all that stuff as pleb upaya, but c'mon don't pretend you're so different from the dreaded western buddhist.

>> No.19794812

>>19794786
Why do you then read Buddhist books and base your worldview on them? Stop reading, enclose yourself in a solitary confinement and derive everything yourself. Unironically btw.

>> No.19794817

>>19794810
Based.

>> No.19794832

>>19794810
What a weird strawman. Nobody here has ever said you can be a practicing Buddhist without upholding the eightfold path. Why is it so difficult to accept for you that people disregard Christianity because they just don't believe in the Bible shit?
Your attempts to make Buddhism and Christianity seem similarly superstitious falls apart when you drop the intellectual dishonesty and admit that the entire metaphysics of Christianity hinge upon the events described in the Bible, while Buddhist metaphysics (and phenomenology; which Christianity lacks) don't hinge upon anything else than personal observation. You can rederive the entire Buddhist soteriology from the four noble truths and theoretically become a Buddha. Can you become a Christ? No, it doesn't even make sense in Christianity, you need to be subservient to Yahweh and unironically stop asking questions because the intellect deceives you according to the orthodox.
>b-but buddhists in buddhist countries are superstitious too
Yes. And?
>>19794812
More disingenuous strawmanning. Buddhist books describe things to help gain insight into one's own personal condition, I don't have to take anything at face value, I can try it for myself and decide if it's bullshit or not based on my personal experiences. Your attempt to apply Christian exegetics to Buddhism falls flat, Buddhism doesn't have a Bible.
No matter how much you try to pilpul your way out (>>19794783) of admitting that Christianity requires blind faith in a specific dogma and set of events you're supposed to take as meaningful, you are wrong. Even Christian mystics need to accept the Bible as true before anything else, otherwise they're not Christian.
And unless you're particularly stupid, I think you can see how simple, easily graspable axioms like the four noble truths form a better basis for a metaphysical system than the alleged events that happened between a few desert tribes from millennia ago.

>> No.19794850

>>19794810
nah this is dumb, if you knew any real buddhist monk you would know that even in the east, the most dogmatic and superstitious monks and lay practicioners are mocked and ignored
this notion that in buddhist countries everyone is just blindly obssesed by the wolrds of rencarnation is a gross exageration
for example, even yur story is going against the sutras, buddha himself said that no human can know the results of his karmic seeds, so if a monk tries to tell you what's gonna happen to you for the things you do, he's just lying
i myself remember how a monk make fun of a lama that didn't want to pass thru doors because he thought his shamantaka initiation gave him horns in the astral realm that didn't let him pass throught doors
or the huge number of theravada monks i knew that hated the whole excorcist bussines for considering it mere folklore
yes there's a lot of superstition in buddhism, but they're seen as idiots

>> No.19794855

>>19794850
>this notion that in buddhist countries everyone is just blindly obssesed by the wolrds of rencarnation
Not him. Not obsessed, but it's pretty much all the laymen care about, right? Since in Theravadin countries they need to assume they'll be reborn, and in Mahayana countries there's the whole Bodhisattva thing. So don't people just try to conduct themselves in a way that minimizes chances of being reborn in a lower realm? I was looking at some Sheng-yen videos and the impression I got was that laymen either worried about getting reborn in a good realm, or in a Pure Land, but they don't really care about actual attainments. Those seem to be postponed in order to be able to lead normal lives.

>> No.19794879

>>19794832
>More disingenuous strawmanning
Where?
>Buddhist books describe things to help gain insight into one's own personal condition,
So do the Gospels.
>I don't have to take anything at face value
Who forces you to take Gospels at face value?
> I can try it for myself and decide if it's bullshit or not based on my personal experiences
Applies to any religion
>of admitting that Christianity requires blind faith in a specific dogma and set of events you're supposed to take as meaningful
Where do I deny that? You keep putting words in my mouth. I could only argue against the word "blind". If you are a Christian, of course you believe in certain dogmas and events. Just in the same way as it applies for Buddhism, you are a Buddhist only if you believe in dogmas and certain set of events. Or you're going to say that you can be a Buddhist while rejecting Pali cannon?
>And unless you're particularly stupid, I think you can see how simple, easily graspable axioms like the four noble truths form a better basis for a metaphysical system than the alleged events that happened between a few desert tribes from millennia ago.
Yeah, of course I can see that because I'm not particularly stupid. Thank you for pointing out flaws in my worldview.
Your seethe is a slightly more elaborated version of
>Brooo, yo Buddhism is like about peace and shit, most peaceful religion, bro
Except that you are less genuine

>> No.19794885

>>19794832
>Buddhist metaphysics don't hinge upon anything else than personal observation.
>>19794850
>buddha himself said that no human can know the results of his karmic seeds
from the summaries at the front of the Middle-Length Discourses, two examples:
Balapandita Sutta: Fools and Wise Men. The sufferings of hell and animal life into which a fool is reborn through his evil deeds, and the pleasures of heaven that a wise man reaps through his good deeds.
Devaduta Sutta: The Divine Messengers. The Buddha describes the sufferings of hell that await the evil-doer after death.

>> No.19794887

>>19794879
>Just in the same way as it applies for Buddhism
Nope. Anyone can be a Pratyekabuddha. Again showing you don't know what you're talking about. The Pali canon isn't the Bible, stop applying your legalist Christian exegetics to something that's essentially a guide for liberation.
>Your seethe
Cool projection, I'm not the one who barged into a thread about a subject I didn't like and proceeded to throw a tantrum because people in here don't base their entire worldview around magical zombie jews.

>> No.19794888

>>19794850
>buddha himself said that no human can know the results of his karmic seeds,
He said exactly the opposite. I swear no one in this cesspit reads.

>> No.19794893

Why feel the need to shill your desert demon cult in a Buddhism thread? There are many other threads where your contributions would be welcome. What compels christcucks to do this?

>> No.19794910

Buddhist larpers
>Deny being superstitious
>Can't stop screeching about demons

>> No.19794914

>>19794910
>>Can't stop screeching about demons
Less so than christcucks though.

>> No.19794919

>>19794887
>Anyone can be a Pratyekabuddha
Anyone can be saved and reach theosis.
>Again showing you don't know what you're talking about
Because you say so?
>The Pali canon isn't the Bible
What does it have to do with your argument? You critisize Christianity because they have to accept the scripture. Can you be a Buddhist without accepting Pali canon?
>Cool projection
You could at least attempt to conceal your anger and not make it explicity in yoru phrasing. You're not really interested in following the four noble truths?

>> No.19794926

>>19794919
>Anyone can be saved and reach theosis.
If they believe in the Bible :^)
>Because you say so?
No, because it's obvious from your incessant seething and misrepresentation of Buddhist tenets.
>Can you be a Buddhist without accepting Pali canon?
You can be a Buddhist without even knowing about the Pali canon.
>You could at least attempt to conceal your anger
"Noooo I'm not seething you are"
kek christlarpers are always a riot
>You're not really interested in following the four noble truths?
There's nothing about not making fun of retards throwing tantrums about their jewish zombie in the four noble truths though. What you're thinking of is "right speech" and that's in the noble eightfold path. Again showing you know absolutely nothing about what you're attempting to criticize lmao

>> No.19794941

>>19794926
>If they believe in the Bible :^)
I don't know.
>No, because it's obvious from your incessant seething and misrepresentation of Buddhist tenets.
What misrepresentation?
>There's nothing about not making fun of retards throwing tantrums about their jewish zombie in the four noble truths though
But where am I throwing tantrums? I'm pointing out your mistakes and directing you towards Nirvana.
>What you're thinking of is "right speech" and that's in the noble eightfold path.
More putting words in my mouth. I meant to say four noble truths and not the noble eitghtfold path.
So if you cannot call yourself a Buddhist without accepting Pali canon, what is your critique of Christianity based on?

>> No.19794949

>>19794941
>I don't know.
You still fail to understand (or pretend not to understand but considering your tone I think you're just unintelligent and blinded by rage) one thing: the entire Christian religion absolutely falls apart with a single sentence, "I don't believe this happened." If the historical allegations of the Bible are wrong, then your entire religion is wrong.
For Buddhism, it doesn't matter. The teachings can be divorced from the Pali canon, from the Buddha's life, and even from Siddhartha himself. Only the teachings matter.
>where am I throwing tantrums
Refer to >>19794893
>I meant to say four noble truths
Yeah I'm aware you have no idea what you're talking about but the least you could do is not continue being wrong after your mistake has been pointed out

>> No.19794952

>>19794941
>you cannot call yourself a Buddhist without accepting Pali canon
He said the opposite btw. The back and forth between you guys is kinda lame. My question for the other guy is:
What makes someone a Buddhist

>> No.19794958

>>19794949
>For Buddhism, it doesn't matter. The teachings can be divorced from the Pali canon, from the Buddha's life, and even from Siddhartha himself. Only the teachings matter.
Which teachings though. And why should they be privileged over the ones you discard? If someone picks other elements and discard the ones you hold to are they more or less of a Buddhist than you? Picking and choosing some parts and ignoring others btw is the literal definition of heresy.

>> No.19794963

>>19794952
>What makes someone a Buddhist
The acknowledgement of the 4NT, I suppose. It's the basis of everything, and everything proceeds from there. But these truths can be rederived by anyone, anytime. They don't depend on revelation. Buddhist soteriology is not circumstantiated by specific actions at a particular point in space and time, while Abrahamic soteriology is entirely reliant on alleged revelations.
>>19794958
>Which
See above
>why
Because everything flows from them
>heresy
Stop applying your legalist Christian exegetics to a religion that doesn't give a shit about it

>> No.19794967

>>19794949
>the entire Christian religion absolutely falls apart with a single sentence, "I don't believe this happened."
Yep.
>For Buddhism, it doesn't matter. The teachings can be divorced from the Pali canon, from the Buddha's life, and even from Siddhartha himself. Only the teachings matter.
If one doesn't believe in Nirvana, what do the teachings matter for? You're confusing ethics with religion. Can you give an example of one accomplished Buddhist who divorced the teachings from Pali canon and Buddha?

>> No.19794971

>>19794963
>Stop applying your legalist Christian exegetics to a religion that doesn't give a shit about it
I see you are ignorant of Buddhist disputes against Advaitins and Kashmiri Shaivites.

>> No.19794977

>>19794967
>If one doesn't believe in Nirvana
That's the experiential part. You don't need to believe in anything, just practice, or don't, and if it works out for you, there's your proof.
Contrast with Christianity where uncompromising eternal damnation awaits whomever disregards the Bible.
>Can you give an example
No. Do you realize why this question is retarded?
>>19794971
I see you are again deflecting. The other guy's right, this exchange is fucking tedious.

>> No.19794988

>>19794977
>That's the experiential part. You don't need to believe in anything, just practice, or don't, and if it works out for you, there's your proof.
I have already said, that the same can be said about Christianity. You are also not familiar with the intricacies of meanings of "believe", "faith", "dogma" and so on.
>No.
You're saying one can divorce the teaching from the Pali canon and Buddha. How does one do that?
>I see you are again deflecting
Have anything to say? I suggest you familiarize yourself with those debates. Extremely interesting imo.
https://www.academia.edu/12663014/Otherness_in_the_Pratyabhijna_Philosophy

>> No.19794993

>>19794988
>that the same can be said about Christianity
Conveniently ignored the rest of my post. Again proving christlarpers have nothing to lean on but their own disingenuousness.
>How does one do that?
By figuring out the 4NT for themselves.
>Have anything to say?
Yes, stop deflecting and answer the actual point or stop responding.

>> No.19795012

>>19794963
>The acknowledgement of the 4NT, I suppose. It's the basis of everything, and everything proceeds from there. But these truths can be rederived by anyone, anytime. They don't depend on revelation.
Let's see, internet tells me
"The four truths are: suffering (DUḤKHA), origination (SAMUDAYA), cessation (NIRODHA), and path (MĀRGA)".
Now someone can hit upon the first three ideas without Buddhist dogma, but "the fourth and final truth is that of the path (marga) to the cessation of suffering. The path is delineated inexhaustive detail in Buddhist texts; in his first sermon, the Buddha describes an eightfold path. Now you can see that one can't rely on these four ideas alone because the fourth is dependent on the path. What's the path? Well, the Buddha reveals that in the Pali Canon. Whereas you wrote:
>You can be a Buddhist without even knowing about the Pali canon.
You also wrote:
>Stop applying your legalist Christian exegetics to a religion that doesn't give a shit about it
As if heresy within Buddhism isn't a thing, you don't think there's a gazillion different sects all calling the others heretics? The word heresy is not exclusively Christian. It just means "picking and choosing" as you are doing right now.

>> No.19795017

>>19795012
I see you're not familiar with what a Pratyekabuddha is. Or even with what a Buddha in the first place is and how a Buddha comes to be. Pretty basic stuff, don't argue about Buddhism if you don't know what a Buddha is.
>there's a gazillion different sects all calling the others heretics?
Except every sect considers their path to be the best, and other paths to be lesser. Nothing to do with picking and choosing or your legalistic definition of heresy.

>> No.19795028

>>19794993
>Conveniently ignored the rest of my post
What did I ignore? The part that you don't have to believe in anything, but just practice? I can elaborate on that then. Your ignorance is based on misuse of the word "believe". First, how would you commit to a practice you don't believe in? Practice presupposes believe. Then if that practice bears fruits, the believe is strengthened, which in turn makes the practice (if it's genuine) more fruitful. Where does the Buddhism vs Christianity dichotomy arise here?
>By figuring out the 4NT for themselves.
I can say one can figure the Sermon on the Mount themselves as well. Now you may argue that one can't divorce it from Jesus, but the flaw here is that to divorce it from Jesus, one has to already be familiar with the Gospels in the first place, so there would be no point in divorcing in that case. Just in the same way as there would be no point in divorcing from Pali canon.

>> No.19795036

>>19795028
>What did I ignore?
>Contrast with Christianity where uncompromising eternal damnation awaits whomever disregards the Bible.
Also, practice doesn't presuppose belief, that's a retarded statement.
>one can't divorce it from Jesus
This is like pulling fucking teeth, I don't think I've ever had such a tedious discussion on this shithole. The point is that your religion hinges entirely on historical events and is meaningless without them, while Buddhism does not and even states that it does not when it talks about Buddhas coming and going and Shakyamuni just being the most recent one in this world.

>> No.19795040

>>19795017
>I see you're not familiar with what a Pratyekabuddha is
Why do you always have to call everybody stupid or say they don't know anything without providing content? Whether he is familiar with what a Pratyekabuddha is has nothing to do with his questions, address the question and not the person.

>> No.19795046

>>19795040
Everything he said becomes meaningless when one takes the example of a Pratekyabuddha. Don't act self-righteous when he's the one who's been pretending to know what he's talking about and "suggesting I familiarize myself" with shit he doesn't even have a clue about.

>> No.19795050

>>19795036
>Also, practice doesn't presuppose belief, that's a retarded statement.
I'm not interested in arguing semantics. However dissapointing you are, I am sure you are capable of understanding what kind of believ a practice presupposes.
>I don't think I've ever had such a tedious discussion on this shithole
It's not tedious at all for me. Mental gymnastics must be tedious though, I get you.

>> No.19795052

>They don't depend on revelation.
As we see above they DO depend on revelation. Because the fourth truth must be detailed in the Noble Path Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi.
As we can see these practices aren't self-explanatory and once again depend on further scripture to reveal and explain them.
>>19795017
Now our Western Buddhist chum claims 4NT isn't enough! You need to know what a Pratyekabuddha is! You have to know what a Buddha is! This seems to me, to be dependent on... that's right: scripture! How far he's shifted the goalposts from his prior claim "these truths can be rederived by anyone, anytime".

Okay, it's time for you to explain what a Buddha and Pratyekabuddha is...

>> No.19795054

>>19795050
>Mental gymnastics must be tedious though, I get you.
I'm sure you do since you're a Christian. Now fuck off.

>> No.19795061

>>19795052
>they DO depend
Nope, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhay%C4%81na
>You need to know what a Pratyekabuddha is! You have to know what a Buddha is!
Nope. "You" as in the anonymous retarded faggot I've been arguing with, need to know in order to understand why everything you've been saying so far is wrong. You're such a disingenuous, slimy crypto-semite that you're distorting the meaning of the expressions I use.
I accept your concession.

>> No.19795072

>>19795054
You can just stop responding and go meditate. That is all that takes you to make me fuck off.
>>19795061
So in the end one has to derive the whole Buddhist scripture?

>> No.19795074

>>19795072
No, I meditate in the evenings.
>So in the end one has to derive the whole Buddhist scripture?
No.

>> No.19795075

let's ask the internet: What's a Pratyekabuddha...
>In Sanskrit, “individually enlightened one” or “solitary buddha”; an ARHAT who becomes enlightened through his own efforts without receiving instruction from a buddha in his final lifetime.
"final lifetime" what the hell is that? looks like we're gonna have to look into revealed scripture once again... not only that once we learn about rebirth (now a crucial part in holding Buddhism together) we also have to develop FAITH. Because if one were to say, ehh rebirths, I don't believe in that, just as one may not believe in Heaven, well then the whole thing falls apart. We're now reliant on dogma. Can the complex rebirth system in Buddhism be "be rederived by anyone, anytime"... nope, don't think so. What's more, when learning about rebirths, the prior claims about buddhists not being superstitious will be well and truly refuted!

>> No.19795081

>>19795075
>moving goalposts to include rebirth even though it hasn't been brought up here or in the 4NT
>sifting the internet for a snippet of a definition of a pratyekabuddha that can support your untenable position

>The pratyekabuddha is an individual who independently achieves liberation without the aid of teachers or guides and without teaching others to do the same.
Gonna keep the pilpul going now? I wonder what your next deflection is going to be.

>> No.19795085

>>19795075
Believing in rebirth is just like believing in cause and effect. You can argue anything is faith based, but in the end it is simply reality whether you believe in it or not. And even then, Buddhism has never stated that rebirth is unconditionally true, nor Hinduism for that matter. It's true on condition of being ensnared by karmic (= phenomenological) forces.

>> No.19795088

Buddhism is self-annihilation. If you want destitution follow this path. Some people will never be whole because of the choices they make.

>> No.19795090

>>19795088
>>19790065

>> No.19795093

>>19795088
Which path do you recommend?

>> No.19795098

>>19795090
Good people build things you worthless bum.

>>19795093
Live (read: try) and learn.

>> No.19795100

>>19795098
lol

>> No.19795101
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19795101

How does one of average intelligence achieve any sort of progress in Buddhist studies? I had joined a zen group previously and they were all retired lawyers and scientist boomers talking about Catuskotis and showing diagrams of cones of light and time and shit and they just got fed up with me being around and being a burden. It all seemed self indulgent and the whole time i wondered how the fuck anyone was supposed to have a chance to comprehend anything.
Are there any good books that are easy to read but not dumbed down?

Should i just recite the name of Amida Buddha until i am born in a better realm?

>> No.19795104

>>19795098
That's not a path, what do you believe in?

>> No.19795108

>>19795101
Read What the Buddha Taught or In the Buddha's Words.

>> No.19795112

>>19795074
>No, I meditate in the evenings.
You should be meditating all the time, not just one hour in the morning, one hour in the evening.
>No.
Why do you read the Buddhist texts then? You know the 4 noble truths, and you said it's enough for someone to figure them out.

>> No.19795114

>>19795112
>You should
Why should I pay any heed to what you say, especially considering all your takes have been shit so far? Don't worry, I know what I have to do.
>Why do you read the Buddhist texts
Because I find them interesting.

>> No.19795115

>>19795101
Practice virtue so you can be reborn with a higher intelligence next go around, cuck

>> No.19795116

>>19795104
Says you. Embrace the pain, stop running from it. That is a path.

A big part of life is healing the trauma you experienced when you were a child. If you can transmute that then become exactly the person you want to be (via truly knowing yourself)... then you've had the best outcome possible in life.

>>19795100
Worthless comment, a reflection.

>> No.19795118

>>19795116
>Embrace the pain
I get it, you're sheltered. Take your nietzschean larp elsewhere.

>> No.19795123

>>19795081
>moving goalposts to include rebirth even though it hasn't been brought up here or in the 4NT
It was brought up in the dictionary definition of Pratyekabuddha that you demanded I must know about. It's from the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism btw, seems more authoritative than yours sourced from wikipedia lol.
And once again, where does one learn about this concept if not in Buddhist scripture.
>even though it hasn't been brought up here or in the 4NT
I've already proven that the 4NT cannot stand on on its own and requires further explanation which is found in scripture.

>> No.19795124

>>19795118
No you loser, I didn't say seek it out. Accept it's existent. You wear your defeatism as a badge of pride.

>Life fundamentally broke me
>If life didn't fundamentally break you then there's something wrong with you!

Suffering is part of life, you learn from it. You try to avoid it in the future. You don't give up on life unless you're a loser.

>> No.19795126

>>19789842
go to mount athos and become an orthodox monk

>> No.19795127

>>19795124
>loser
Ah yes another braindead hedonist. Don't care lol, go coom or whatever

>> No.19795128

>>19795126
This would be a good plan if christianity wasn't wrong

>> No.19795131

>>19793510
Not who you are replying to but I just picked up Buddhist Logic by Scherb ans am looking forward to it.

>> No.19795132

>>19795108
Thank you.

>>19791729
>even several decades ago Buddhism was appropriated from as a sort of chic thing to do rather than being part of a genuine spiritual path

Do you have anything i can read about this?

>> No.19795134

>>19795123
>It was brought up in the dictionary definition
So what? A dictionary definition assumes prior knowledge of Buddhism, how does that mean anything? Are you that stupid that you can't discern between academic debates and actual practice?

>In the early tradition of the Pāli canon the paccekabuddha (Sanskrit, pratyekabuddha) refers to a male individual who has attained enlightenment or insight (bodhi; hence, buddha) by himself. In contrast to a sammāsambuddha (Sanskrit, samyaksaṃbuddha), which is a completely enlightened person, a pratyekabuddha keeps enlightenment for himself (pratyeka) and does not embark on a career of preaching it to others. In early Buddhist cosmology, buddha era and non-buddha era follow each other. During a buddha era, an enlightened being like the historical Buddha (Siddhārtha Gautama) is born, attains enlightenment, and eventually preaches the four noble truths that he has discovered. He then starts a dispensation on the basis of his compassion for other suffering beings. A pratyekabuddha also attains enlightenment by his own effort, but does not have the energy to preach or establish a Buddhist dispensation because, as the canonical texts explain, he lacks the compassion of a fully enlightened buddha. Even so, he is considered a teacher, albeit a silent one, teaching by the example of his life and actions.

>where does one learn about this concept
You don't learn about it, you live it, moron. The Buddha didn't one day tell himself "hmm today I will become a pratyekabuddha" he just did it. God you're dense
>I've already proven
lmao
The only thing you've proven without a doubt is your lack of intelligence

>> No.19795137
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19795137

>>19795124
Sorry bro, not falling for it anymore and no amount of gaslighting and shame tactics will have me reenter your pain matrix

>> No.19795147

>>19793181
In India? Perhaps, depending on how you measure his ‘influence’ on local Hinduism given his smarta tradition was largely a failure. The only thing going for advaita was the hindutva elite that larped as advaitists from the neo Vedanta times til today to appear more cultured vis-à-vis the Christians of elite British men.

>> No.19795148

>>19795137
Who hurt you?

>> No.19795151
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19795151

>>19795148
this nigger

>> No.19795152

Reminder: Buddhism is for loser who've given up on life.

>>19795127
Cope. You deflect and dodge like a true coward. Nowhere have I mentioned the pursuit of pleasure. It's about self-actualization, being the best version of you you can be.

>Don't care lol
You've proven me right again and again, look at how you talk! You're a fucking coward running from life.

Misery seeks company. While you commit spiritual suicide you drag as many other naive kids down with you.

>>19795137
>gaslighting
Hahah go back to twitter!

I'm not trying to shame you. I mean objectively; losers: people who fail to reproduce, build communities and legacies.

>The boy who thinks like a teenage girl wants to show you how to live life

>> No.19795155

>>19795148
Better question to ask him is when did he give up on himself, did he every love himself enough to believe in himself?

>> No.19795156

>>19795152
>people who fail to reproduce, build communities and legacies.
Imagine giving the slightest ounce of a fuck about this bullshit
You are, in the most fundamental sense, what Buddhists would call an icchantika and what Gnostics would call a hylic. A literal golem.

>> No.19795157

>>19795155
Take your vacuous bullshit to >>>/adv/ midwit

>> No.19795163

>>19795152
>self-actualization, being the best version of you you can be.
There is no better version of a human being than an arahant
You're chasing illusions

>> No.19795171
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19795171

>buddhist thread gets derailed by literal /sig/ NPCs
kek I didn't think these people even frequented /lit/

>> No.19795190

>>19795156
>Imagine giving the slightest ounce of a fuck about this bullshit
That's fundamental nature of the human experience, you pretending otherwise doesn't mean a thing except the fact you've failed.

>...A literal golem.
Lmao of course they would demonize it! Why do you think that means anything.

>>19795157
Why don't you commit to your ideology and kill yourself you fucking loser.

>>19795163
Wrong on both fronts. Have you never met somebody who was happy, who was satisfied with life? Never?

>>19795171
There are a lot of losers on /lit/, a LOT of losers but /lit/ also has the smartest posters as well, they're just in the minority.

>> No.19795191

>>19795190
>you pretending otherwise
I have literally never cared about this shit. Ever, even when I was a kid.

>> No.19795196

>>19795190
>Why don't you commit to your ideology and kill yourself you fucking loser.
ummmm wow not very life affirming of you
I welcome death but I won't kill myself until I've achieved what I consider to be sufficient direct insight into the nature of reality

>> No.19795197

>>19795190
This post has comforted me in the idea that my path was the right one
>somebody who was happy, who was satisfied with life
Missing the whole point
>they're just in the minority.
Yeah and you're not part of them

>> No.19795199
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19795199

Bros, where do I start with Nietzsche, the Buddha of Europe?

>> No.19795202
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19795202

>>19795199
wherever you want since he was wrong about most things

>> No.19795209

There are two extreme temperaments: nietzschean and gnostic.
One sees nothing of worth but the world, the other sees nothing of worth in the world. They are fundamentally incompatible and can never understand each other no matter what. Debates pertaining to these respective temperaments are pointless, you either get it or you don't, and if you get one, you won't get the other.

>> No.19795218

>>19795134
Buddhist anons peculiar predicament is that he insists that
>Buddhism is neither superstitious nor dependent on dogma
>a Buddhist need only acknowledge the 4NT
>these truths don't require scripture revelation, they can be realized by "anyone, anytime"
>but the fourth noble truth requires explanation
>the fourth noble truth is explained in N8P which itself requires further explanation
>in order to defend his indefensible position he yells: b-b-but pratyekabuddhas
>this being a concept explained in buddhist scripture
>being someone who in their final rebirth achieves enlightenment via contemplation of the 4NT
>but in order to believe in pratyekabuddhas you have to believe in rebirth
>can the Buddhist concept of rebirth "be rederived by anyone, anytime"
>No. It's very complex and to understand you have to read the scripture
>Buddhist anon yells... b-b-but pratyekabuddhas have nothing to do with rebirth, you're a liar! a goalpoast shifter

let's look at the Uraga Sutta, which wiki says "opens the Pali Canon's Sutta Nipata", the Sutta Nipata which apparently "describes the oldest of all Buddhist practices"
in it says:
>How long does it take for the aspiration of paccekabuddhas (pratyekabuddhas) to be fulfilled? For paccekabuddhas, two incalculables and 100,000 eons are required. It is not possible in less time than this.
superstition: check
dogma: check
rebirth: check
So it appears both the dictionary and the Buddha himself have refuted him quite thoroughly. Anyway, time for lunch. Don't forget to practice right speech, friend.

>> No.19795219

>>19795191
Maybe you're a little slow, watch when you get older and the reality of your mortality dawns upon you. Will it push you further into the cycle of self-denial or will it cause you to regret the years you wasted denying yourself life itself.

>>19795196
>I welcome death
Hahaha and there it is. That's what Buddhism is all about.

>>19795197
>comforted
Comfort is essential component of a loser: a glutton of comfort.

Not much meat in your seething post.

>> No.19795221

>>19795218
You haven't understood anything to what I've been saying for more than an hour. You're absolutely hopeless.

>> No.19795228

>>19795219
>That's what Buddhism is all about.
I'm not a buddhist. But if that's what they're about then they're based

>> No.19795233

>>19795219
>watch when you get older and the reality of your mortality dawns upon you.
>implying
Unlike you I'm not a sheltered little faggot who thinks he's cool for welcoming suffering. I've had my share and I know what to expect. Keep pretending to be the ubermensch on an anime imageboard you juvenile retard.

>> No.19795237
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19795237

>>19795219
>t.

>> No.19795240

>>19795221
>NO NO NO you don't understand
You're incapable of explaining because your position is untenable nonsense. You've been refuted, move on. Bye bye.

>> No.19795241
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19795241

>>19795218
Still makes more sense than zombie jew though

>> No.19795243

>>19795240
>You've been refuted
No, but I accept your concession. Now go eat your lunch retard.

>> No.19795249

>>19795240
He's already explained several times and you're too dumb to see it

>> No.19795258
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19795258

This nigga had titties

>> No.19795259
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19795259

>>19795218
Imagine spending so much time and effort trying to prove someone wrong and still missing the point this hard.

>> No.19795262

>>19795199
>>19795258
seething

>> No.19795274
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19795274

>> No.19795276

>>19795114
>Why should I pay any heed to what you say
You disagree that you should attempt to meditate all the time?
>Because I find them interesting.
Do they not help you in reaching Nirvana?

>> No.19795279

>seething so hard he's spamming a thread past bump limit
sad

>> No.19795286

>>19795276
>You disagree
Why don't you answer my question?
>Do they not help you in reaching Nirvana?
Surely they do, your point being?

>> No.19795295

>>19795237
Not one of those is true. Although you can apply the word winner/loser to certain people, you can't label everybody life that. You losers are the absolute bottom of the barrel, to fundamentally give up on life itself. Also your crude cartoon is a very unbuddhist-like thing to spend you time doing, it's something a retarded kid would do.

>>19795233
Projection. I'm going to repeat myself because you seem too stupid to have understood me the first time: suffering is a part of life to learn from, running from the possibility of suffering is running from life itself. In your imagination you should make me fat as well, it'll help you soothe yourself.

>> No.19795299

>>19795295
I'm not a buddhist lol, just pointing out how much of a soulless faggot you are

>> No.19795303
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19795303

On God?

>> No.19795305

>>19795295
Sure thing little buddy. Life is not the world.

>> No.19795313
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19795313

>>19795295
>to fundamentally give up on life itself.
Bottom of the barrel to NPCs like you.
Cream of the crop to those who matter.

>> No.19795320

>>19795303
>On God?
Huh?

>> No.19795328

Imagine being that far gone.
>wanting a family makes you a soulless faggot

>>19795299
Cope you failure.

>>19795313
>those who matter
Haha who's that?

>>19795305
Do you feel better about yourself when you make those passive aggressive retorts, devoid of any meaning.

>> No.19795330
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19795330

>>19795328

>> No.19795332

>>19795328
>Haha who's that?
Not (you). You wouldn't get it :^)

>> No.19795334
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19795334

>>19795330
Being a failure by your standards makes me rejoice and confirms that my path is the right one.

>> No.19795340

>>19795334
Whoops meant to reply to >>19795328

>> No.19795345

>>19795332
Exactly. Nobody. You admit that the majority of people ("NPCs") think you're a loser:
>Bottom of the barrel to NPCs like you.

So you cope. Cope on.

>>19795340
Can't even succeed at making a post on 4chan.

>my path my path
You would be better off in Scientology.

>> No.19795350

>>19795345
>Nobody
For you.
I don't care what NPCs "think". Keep seething.

>> No.19795353

>>19795345
>You would be better off in Scientology.
No, I've found my path. You contributed to confirming it.

>> No.19795356

>>19795345
>the majority of people ("NPCs") think you're a loser
And?

>> No.19795380
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19795380

They can’t stand the sight of a healthy individual. It fills them with resentment.

>> No.19795391
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19795391

>healthy individual
is phoneposting soijaks for hours on threads you don't like a sign of health?

>> No.19795392

>>19795286
Point is that four truths is enough as you said.

>> No.19795397
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19795397

>> No.19795410
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19795410

>> No.19795412
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19795412

>> No.19795417
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19795417

>> No.19795420

>>19795392
Yeah.

>> No.19795540

>>19795147
His influence is very minimal as far as I know, he was mostly criticized by later Hindu writers. Meanwhile The Buddha pretty much influenced all of Eastern philosophy. In other words, Buddhism unequivocally won.

>> No.19795551
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19795551

Mindfulbros....

>> No.19795681

>>19795147
>Smarta is a failure
Smarta exists all over India and is still going strong today, did you just make that up?
>>19795540
> His influence is very minimal as far as I know, he was mostly criticized by later Hindu writers.
He is universally regarded as one of the most influential Hindu philosophers by most Indology scholars. His works were a touchstone that later Hindu philosophers felt compelled to respond to, because if they didnt explain why their own systems were justified over Advaita it would have made their own systems seem superfluous and unnecessary contrast, so they felt compelled to respond in order to provide a justification for their own school to other Hindus. Shankara’s tradition also has one of the most voluminous collection of systematic philosophical writings of any Hindu school. And later philosophers were influenced by Advaita even when rejecting it at the same time, a bunch of Kashmir Shaivist concepts are basically Advaita teachings with a slight twist or different emphasis. Lastly, Shaktism explicitly aligns itself with Advaita because of the pervasive influence of Shankara, the most important Shaktist philosopher is Bhaskararaya who heaps elaborate praise on Shankara and Shankara’s disciples in his works, and one of the main Shakti sects (Sri Vidya) includes Shankara in their Guru lineage.


Meanwhile The Buddha pretty much influenced all of Eastern philosophy. In other words, Buddhism unequivocally won.

>> No.19795687

>>19795681
> Meanwhile The Buddha pretty much influenced all of Eastern philosophy. In other words, Buddhism unequivocally won.
And Buddha and later Buddhists were universally criticized by basically all Hindu writers/philosophers before and after Shankara

>> No.19796013

>halp life is sooooferin
>only by denying the self and becoming a lobotomized NPC can I avoid this soofering
>where is Amazon mindful box?

>> No.19796047

>>19796013
Who are you quoting, my seething friend?

>> No.19796332

>>19792251
>i have medicated
well there you go you were supposed to meditate you dumbfuck

>> No.19796358

namu amida butsu

>> No.19796389

>>19792491
what the fuck even are californian texts that and why would anyone go to that for buddhism

>> No.19796399

>>19796389
>he doesn't know about the Californian Sutras