/lit/ - Literature

>>19793627
>>>/co/
>>>/trash/

>>19793627
I've never read the republic. I didn't realize there were people with giant heads in it. Sounds kinda cool.

In the written language of human history, what was like Plato before Plato? What written document is as clear, thorough, rigorous, eloquent, and unbiased in it's seeking to discover and represent 'that which may be the case'?

>arrogant dickhead gets btfo using the logic of his own arguments
>starts whining about how "unfair" it is
Like an internet "debate".

Every early dialogue is like this. It makes them very tiring to read.

>>19793744
>arrogant dickhead gets btfo using the logic of the strawman that another arrogant dickhead made up
Yes, just like an internet "debate".

>>19793753
truth ain't easy

>>19793627

>>19793768
kek

>>19793766
There's no reason why Socrates had to interact with a bunch of retards in order to find the truth. No other philosopher does this the way Plato does.

I think you all have some growing up to do.

>>19793768
lmao

>>19793627

>>19793782
>There's no reason why Socrates had to interact with a bunch of retards in order to find the truth. No other philosopher does this the way Plato does
He was speaking directly too and directly criticising ways of thinking during the day, taking many popularly or otherwise held beliefs of those around him, and shedding the purest of lights on them, figuring them out, taking them to their logical conclusions and reductions, to wind up with a stance closer to understanding, to seeing things more clearly than prior the process.

To get what may demonstrably proven to be faulty thinking and assumptions and beliefs out of the way, and use that data and process to then proceed towards, what may be able to be said about the state and possible state of things.

A large portion of his motivation is very practical, to live in a society among various crazy people, with variously unfounded or shoddy beliefs and forms of thinking.

Can you not sympathize, or relate? Or are you usually the one having your thoughts deconstructed?

>>19793768
Holy Based.

>>19793627
>>19793790
I miss this styles of meme.

>>19793768
>>19793908
>>19793829
I hate this meta. Wojack posters ruined the internet.

It's even better when Socrates goes on to call Thrasymachus his friend and that they were actually in agreement all along

>>19793954
>>19793959
>>19793908

>>19793893
I see your point but I still find reading it tedious as it applies to the society that it is responding to and only has a loose connection to modern issues in the form of general patterns of human behaviour. I think the effect would be more pronounced if the socratic method was applied to modern issues but I am not aware of anyone who does so, but if they existed then they surely would be heroic. Sometimes I think of doing it myself when I hear terms such as alienation or general racialist sentiments but then I think it may not be so wise to cast my pearls before swine.

OP probably thinks Nietzsche is the greatest philosopher of all time and that's why he's mad at Socrates BTFOing Thrasymachus, who is basically just saying what Nietzsche said thousands of years before Nietzsche was born. This is why Nietzsche hated Plato, too, because he knew Plato refuted him before his great, great, great grandfather was even born and he couldn't stand it.

>>19793988
Racialism is actually one of those things that have been suppressed, but which is actually true. You can't deconstruct racialism without also deconstructing the idea of humanity itself, thereby erasing all of the progress of so-called humanism.

>>19794004
Why don't you write a book about what you think my views probably are and then 'refute' the arguments I probably might maybe make?

>>19793988
Yea I mean, that's one reason I like it, the Socratic method. It teaches how to best analyze and think and question information. There is lot of good stuff in there, but to witness that techniquel form of thinking is valueable enough. It is the spirit, source and essence of Philosophy itself. Knowing how and why and what to ask questions is the grounds and source of wisdom and understanding.

Yea apply it to everything you can to aim toward a path of understanding.

What about the term, the idea of alienation grabs your attention and interest?

>>19794077
If you're interested in technical thinking you're better off reading Aristotle's Posterior and Prior Analytics than Plato.

>>19793782
>>19793893
In Phaedo 95e-102a, Socrates claims he found an important problem in the pre-Socratic approach and so had to turn to understand the beings via the medium of speeches about them, so opinion seems to be important to Plato more than just because people have bad opinions.

As a reflection, it probably sounds trivially true when spelled out. Absent speech, we don't seem to have access to knowledge or truth. And it's only through working out the opinions contained in the speeches of other people that we can start measuring which ones stand or fall, and how much or little we can know in such and such domains.

>>19793988
>What about the term, the idea of alienation grabs your attention and interest?

See how I must socratically ask this question to get to the bottom of your thoughts on it, and I even sense we likely will have a disagreement in regards to the totality of what can be said and thought of of the term and concept 'alienation'(my understanding being rooted in the eternal realm of ideals)(yours likely not so much, I already sense a kneejerk reaction to my use of the term ideal, to which would begin another Socratic dialogue of my educating you, alas that is said with jest,though who knows, but the future process of interrogation)

Plato was a mistake and if you compare him and Platonists to non Platonic Greek thought from Homer to Heraclitus and Parmanides to the dramatists and poets to Aristotle, that becomes readily apparent. Plato has a very sickly outlook on life, everything he says is against it and it almost feels like real life is just a bother which gets in the way for Plato

>>19794081
Cool, what do you think is so interesting about the text? Is it not just a formalizing of the Socratic method?

Like Plato could sing great songs but Aristotle developed proverbial philosophical musical notation?

>>19794134
Do you remember what happens with Plato in the Phaedo?

>>19794134
If my neighbor believes certain fairy tales are true there is no telling what else he may think and that puts me and the community in danger

>>19794151
I don’t, it’s been a long time since I read it

>>19794152
That’s true but Plato made up his own and the Athenian community already had quite enough of higher quality desu

>>19793959

>>19794179
In the Phaedo, the only dialogue besides the Apology in which Plato inserts his name, he's said to be absent because he's sick. Why would he miss Socrates' death just on account of being sick? By implication, Plato thinks it's more important to take care of his body. Similarly, Socrates doesn't seem to necessarily be as fearless in the face of death as it appears: he asks if he can pour a libation to the gods from the cup of hemlock, which seems both blasphemous and a little like a worried hope to survive it if there's less to drink.

>>19794196
>to be absent because he's sick. Why would he miss Socrates' death just on account of being sick?
He could also be sick with sadness or of not wanting to witness that event, And/or also as an excuse possibly out of fear of being grouped in with him?

This conversation made me think of when The Republic first had widespread publication. I hardly spent time looking do you happen to know anything about this? Was it meant to be read by just a select few? Did Plato have scribes help writing it? Think of the effort organizing drafts and sketches and editing.

What made me wonder is Socrates put to death for saying those things, and then Plato writing and publishing those things if it was wide spread would be guilty of the same. Which makes me wonder if it was just for those in the academy

>>19793959
>>19793954
thanks anon(s)

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
Am I doing it right?

>>19793627
hehe
>>19793768
cringe

>>19794179
>If my neighbor believes certain fairy tales are true there is no telling what else he may think and that puts me and the community in danger
>>19794179
>That’s true

Another perfect example of the value of Socratic dialogue. I made a statement and although you did provide more than what I quoted above, you did say that's true.

Is it true, to what degrees and circumstances is it true? What are thee and how do we go about figuring out the appropriate means of dealing with such a person? Who may or may not be a danger to them self and others do to what may or may not be various degrees of various degrees of proveability of the truth and falseness if their beliefs

>>19793988
alot of words for saying nothing

>>19794220
>He could also be sick with sadness or of not wanting to witness that event, And/or also as an excuse possibly out of fear of being grouped in with him?
If sickness were to be related in the rest of Phaedo to fear or sadness, that might be something. But sickness with no further word (Phaedo literally just says "I think Plato was sick" and makes no further comment), especially when the rest of the dialogue is pointing constantly to the relationship between body and soul and death being their separation, sickness seems like just bodily sickness, and Plato attends to that. (From what Socrates says in the dialogue, it might be that Plato's also distinct from everyone else in not making a big deal over Socrates' death, which is an attitude Socrates is at pains to encourage in the friends present.)

There might well have been a danger to Plato for his association with Socrates during that time. The Socratics do seem to have fled from Athens for a short period to visit a foreign Socratic.

>This conversation made me think of when The Republic first had widespread publication. I hardly spent time looking do you happen to know anything about this? Was it meant to be read by just a select few? Did Plato have scribes help writing it? Think of the effort organizing drafts and sketches and editing.
Great question: ...we don't really know? There's an enormous amount of information of the period we just simply don't know. Later authors do mention Plato composing very carefully, and there's a story of him spending a lot of time perfecting the opening sentence of the Republic, but we don't have any accounts contemporary with him that tell us how he wrote or edited. Maybe in a lost work of Aristotle or Theophrastus, but we just don't know.

>What made me wonder is Socrates put to death for saying those things, and then Plato writing and publishing those things if it was wide spread would be guilty of the same. Which makes me wonder if it was just for those in the academy
Hard to say. On the one hand, Plato's depictions of Socrates have been historically so successful that most people take for granted that Socrates was innocent. On the other, writing dialogues where you're never a character present in them also gives the appearance of just innocently reporting and so some plausible deniability.

The dialogues might've been primarily shared with his friends and members of the Academy, but the rhetorician Isocrates criticizes what sounds like Platonic philosophy in one of his speeches, and a comedian contemporary with the old Plato makes fun him, as well as the rhetorician Demosthenes in a pun in one of his speeches. So the dialogues or their contents seem to have been at least a little known.

>>19794307
>but the rhetorician Isocrates criticizes what sounds like Platonic philosophy in one of his speeches, and a comedian contemporary with the old Plato makes fun him, as well as the rhetorician Demosthenes in a pun in one of his speeches.
Thanks for the info, do you happen to have these or know them off hand to post here?

Also it's been so long since I read the Republic, but the earliest portion I remember describing the setting and people like going down to that s little place to drink wine and discuss, I'm assuming the opening sentence isn't related to that im gonna go look it up, but I remember how aesthetically pleasing that description was to me, of the guys just hanging out with wine in a cozy place discussing philosophy.

>>19794315
Bravo

>>19793627
Fuck off back to /co/mblrdditter

>>19794315
Sillyfags btfo

>>19794400
>Thanks for the info, do you happen to have these or know them off hand to post here?
No problem. Unfortunately I learned about all three from a lecture way back in college, and the comedian and Demosthenes passages are both specialist and require in Demosthenes' case looking at the Greek since he refers to Plato by a pun on his name. For Isocrates, if I had to guess off the top of my head, it'd probably be in "Against the Sophists", since his school was rival to the Academy.


>Also it's been so long since I read the Republic, but the earliest portion I remember describing the setting and people like going down to that s little place to drink wine and discuss, I'm assuming the opening sentence isn't related to that im gonna go look it up, but I remember how aesthetically pleasing that description was to me, of the guys just hanging out with wine in a cozy place discussing philosophy.
Do you perhaps mean the Symposium? That one's a drinking party. In the Republic they discuss having dinner at Polemarchus' home, which never ends up happening.

>>19794307
>I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with Glaucon the son of Ariston, that I might offer up my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis.); and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the festival, which was a new thing. I was delighted with the procession of the inhabitants; but that of the Thracians was equally, if not more, beautiful.

Oh this is interersting, at first I didn't get much by it, now I see he is kind of justifying what follows in the book, expressing his interests in humans, he was delighted by this artsy cultural display, but found the people watching even more beautiful

>Yes
>I suppose
>Of course
>[reluctantly agrees]

>>19794315
sillybros.....

>>19794452
>In the Republic they discuss having dinner at Polemarchus' home, which never ends up happening.
I think that is what I'm thinking and when i just looked at the opening sentence I scrolled ahead and did see right there it leads to the dinner party idea, but I thought they do go on with it and have it, or they are standing around after festival making plans and discussing some things (quoting Sophocles about it being a relief having the passions slow down in old age as a response to many older men being sad they no longer can enjoy the escapades of youth)but then Socrates doesn't go for dinner?

I think I may have day dreamed in highschool reading in homeroom, when it mentioned dinner party and wine and philosophy, for some reason I had the imagery of heading down into a Grove (I know he heads down for the festival) with a table I imagined like some backyard lamp lit patio. I think it was just my day dreaming about the ideal setting to discuss philosophy

>>19794482
>>19794456
>>19794452
But now I have no clue if that's what's intended by that first sentence,

This translation it's different:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D1


I don't get what he's saying was or wasn't more beautiful, 2 different peoples? 2 different festivals?

>>19793627
I've always thought that Thrasymachus in Book 1 is eloquent and forceful, and he responds to Socrates exactly how he should.
Socrates is portrayed as making very inadequate arguments, which even Glaucon notices.
This is what sets the stage for the whole book.

>>19794501
>I don't get what he's saying was or wasn't more beautiful, 2 different peoples? 2 different festivals?
The groups of people celebrating. He says he likes the processional parade of the Athenians in the Piraeus, but that the Tracian parade was at least equally as beautiful.

For some context, the "goddess" is the Thracian goddess Bendis, who was being introduced into Athens. This was apparently unusual to do, and there's maybe a little bit of an eye on Socrates' own fate, since he was charged with not believing in the gods of the city and *introducing new deities*.

It's also worth pointing out that the very first word, "kataben", is "I went down", which looks forward to the Cave passage with the philosopher's return to the city (which the Cave stands for). There might also be a resonance there with the labors of Hercules (who descends to Hades; notice that Thrasymachus is described as a wolf, almost like he's a Cerberus?) and/or the Odyssey with Odysseus' descent to Hades (Socrates makes a number of explicit and implicit comparisons between himself and Odysseus throughout the dialogue). There might also be an Orphic resonance, but I'm less sure of that.

>>19793661
They don't call Thrasymachus the Chalcedonian giant for nothing

>>19794558
Alright very cool, thanks for all your educated input. Any other thoughts you have on the book, or any insights?

Any favorite parts, or believed most important or impressive or profound sections?

What is up with some of Plato's more leaps of ideas that people critisize as bizarre or totalitarian? Do you think in more time Plato would have changed his mind on some things he wrote?

>>19793988
>but then I think it may not be so wise to cast my pearls before swine.
Yeah, of course. THAT's the thing what's stopping you.

>>19793988
>Sometimes I think of doing it myself when I hear terms such as alienation or general racialist sentiments but then I think it may not be so wise to cast my pearls before swine.
Wow I'm so glad some brave author is finally willing to take a stand against that horrible racism thing, finally! You're so brave and wise.

am I being introduced to a specific boards memetic culture like when soijacks became synonymous with /qa/?

>>19794924
I have never seen this variation of silly posters ever, I think it was created by this anon>>19793768 for this thread specifically

>>19794929
Nobody makes OC with epoch time for a filename

>>19794468

>>19794283
I have Shari’ah for all that because Abu conversation between two individuals will end up with a lot of speculation and probably become inapplicable or extraordinarily subjective

>>19795110
>>19794924
>>19794929
it's one autist, I remember he did something similar with chudjak posting

>>19794315
Kek

What else is good Plato books? Symposium is really good

>>19793627
Retarded faggot. Even Bertrand Russell noted that Plato was extremely self-critical -- so much so that he specifically stated that Parmenides is the greatest example of self-criticism in Western philosophy. Plus, Thrasymachus makes a very strong case for might is right.

>>19794265
No, it's
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>

>Apparantly

>>19793627
Plato's arguments are silly, unlike yours, a well thought out opinion piece composed of a one line greentext and a reaction image.

Who is currently the

>>19793768
This. People who post these retarded comics need to be lobotomized so they can be truly silly

Hewo UWU I hav sillification fetish but don't tel my fellow cumrades ~

>>19797055
I like Meno. Socrates tries to answer the question of whether virtue is learned, or or you are born with it.

>>19793768
>>19793627
Both of these are absolutely great.

>>19793768
sillyfags need to kill themselves immediately

>>19793768
Sillyfaging is an old meme, its like at least 3 hours old.

>>19793753
>apology
>crito
wrong

>>19794315
What other memes has this guy made and where can I find them

>>19794048
What?

>>19800077

Bizarre…

>>19797319
Not really a strong case. BTFO so hard he's absent the rest of the book and sat his ass down to listen instead,

>>19800203
Woah, this one is over my head

>>19797319
>>19801010
How did Plato argue against might is right? Wasn't slavery prevelant, what did Plato say about slavery?

>>19793627
>>19793627
i'm feeling pretty silly too

>>19801932
Someone respond to this please

>>19794315
>>19794468
Silly-sisters, how will we ever recover?

>>19793720
I think Plato’s thought is just more familiar to us, so we see it that way. Plato lived in a world that was increasingly similar to ours, the issues of justice in the polis were issues that we recognize as “seriously considered”. Whereas the ancient Greek era of Homer has values and thought harder for us to connect with. As far as writing stuff like that down is concerned, it was still generally alien to the ancient Greeks. They still used oral histories and forms of reciprocity like gift giving that expressed social connection and meaning. Plato was in a world that was becoming more alienated, even though it wasn’t AS alienated as our world. That was a part of what gave rise to his particular questions of justice and the structure of the polis.

Before that the questions in Homer were serious social questions for Greeks. The Iliad involves problems of reciprocity and power in the more ancient “warlord” culture of the Greeks, where bands of warriors had elaborate methods of sharing both the spoils of battles won and the surplus of the land. The sacrificial feasts were all highly ritualized and involved largely equal sharing of labor and meat among participants, or at least a prescribed way of splitting these things amongst the group, whereas splitting spoils was less regimented because spoils themselves take the form of incommensurate treasures. So Achilles accuses Agamemnon of taking too much for himself, and Agamemnon sees it as his right to choose how to split the treasure, which leads to a social deterioration. Most of the remaining text explores the consequences of this and the meaning of it, how it can be reconciled, why it is happening. While obviously the story is mythologized, I think it is definitely rooted in actual social dilemmas of the ancient Greek world. Similarly Plato explores the issues of his world, but in a slightly more (I say slightly since Plato still tells stories of Socrates rather than just writing his own words, much like the poets told stories of heroes and gods) clinical way. But I think his approach really is born from the more alienated way Greek society has progressed. Everything begins to seem set above or beyond humans. The spread of writing itself is a part of that. Whereas in ancient Greece everything was felt to be the product of individuals, of interpersonal relations, even when projected into the cosmic figures of the gods (or rather as a result of that actual way of life). Everything seemed to pass through people. Like when Hector said that everyone would remember his name as they passed the funeral mound of Achilles on the Hellespont. It’s not because they would read of it, they’d see it. They’d know it, everyone would relate to each other by spoken word through the generations that there was the mound of Achilles. But Homer refers to written words once as “baneful symbols”. Written words cut the relationships of people out, they can seem to stand outside of people.

>>19795110
you'd be surprised

>>19803071
Thanks for this informative and thought provoking post good sir.

>>19803071
Interesting, it's like a form of sociology through myth.

>>19803283
I'm mostly taking that stuff from a guy named Richard Seaford, specifically two of his books "Reciprocity and Ritual" and "Money and the Early Greek Mind". The former one goes more into ancient greece while the latter pushes the theory that a major influence in the development of classic greek philosophy was the increasing monetization of the greek world, as coinage had spread in the time of Plato and created new social issues in property, class, justice etc. Which I'm referring to all of that as the increasing "alienation" they experienced. Coinage introduces new issues of exchange and feuds between kingdoms over monetary value. These can seem like they're "outside" the control of people, in the way we commonly think of the economy almost like the weather. Even though Seaford doesn't claim the classical Greek monetary economy was as developed as ours, nor that it is the only explanation for classical Greek philosophy. Just that it is one that he thought wasn't explored much as a big social rupture around the time you had Plato beginning the western philosophical canon.

>>19794759
>Any favorite parts, or believed most important or impressive or profound sections?
Hmm, it's hard to say. I read it less like a treatise and more like a large number of provocations. At the moment, I guess I really just have areas that I have questions about, but I'm not sure they're exciting for anyone else. 1) Polemarchus's definition of justice in book 1 as "benefitting friends and harming enemies" comes back in when the Guardians are first introduced. The Guardians are likened to dogs who protect those they know and bark at or attack those they don't--it's just Polemarchus' definition. But I don't understand why it's brought back. 2) In book 2, Socrates founds the peaceful and harmonious city (he calls it "the city in truth"), and Glaucon dismisses it as a "city of pigs" because it doesn't have fancy couches and tables. Oddly, in book 10, when Socrates makes his final critique of the poets, the examples he uses are the very objects Glaucon criticized Socrates' city for lacking. I'm not sure what to make of it. 3) At the end of book 8, Socrayes describes how the tyrant kills their father, and at the beginning of book 9, he says how the tyrant's waking life is the same as what they see in their dreams, and he gives the example of sleeping with their mother. So the model of the tyrant is Oedipus, which points to a reliance on poetry and myth that's hard to square with the critique of poetry. 4) At the beginning of book 8, when Socrates describes the degeneration of regimes, he starts by invoking the muse--why? The account *does* resemble Hesiod's account of the declining ages of man in the Works and Days, but is it just a neat reference, or is their something happening with that?

>What is up with some of Plato's more leaps of ideas that people critisize as bizarre or totalitarian? Do you think in more time Plato would have changed his mind on some things he wrote?
Well, the ban on certain kinds of poetry has a point to make, and we see it playing out today--the demand for perfect justice will necessitate concern about education, and if the goal is to make people perfectly just, then you have to consider what art, which affects us deeply on a kind of irrational level, might teach people. As for the communism of women and children, it's not a coincidence that Socrates calls it laughable; it's right out of Aristophanes' comedy the Assembly of Women.

It's always hard to judge how a thinker might respond if they were in another setting, but if the mature Plato were to see what life's like now, I don't think he'd change his mind much.

>>19801932
Socrates argues against a form of "might makes right" when he argues against Thrasymachus' definition of justice, "the advantage of the stronger". But Socrates doesn't seem satisfied with his argument by the end of book 1/start of book 2, and Thrasymachus calms down, but admits he just wants the argument to be done, so he's not convinced. Later (book 5 I think?) Socrates says he and Thrasymachus are friends and weren't enemies before (in book 1), so there's maybe an admission that compulsion is involved in civic justice.

Plato has Socrates say pretty consistently that being a slave is bad, but I can't recall anywhere where Plato argues against the institution of slavery. I get the impression that he'd readily admit that there's instances of enslavement that are unjust or wrong, but I also get the impression that he wouldn't disagree with slavery in the instance of someone being unable to to rule or direct themselves and their passions.

If he heard the term "wage-slave", I think he'd nod and say "yep."

>>19803568
Didn't read your answer yet but will, just wanna get your thoughts on this before I forget:

I is interesting that the concept, justice, is so the main point (though he also goes into the good and all)

Wouldn't one suppose he was so concerned with the city, because it is rare for a man to completely solitarily live, that nessecarily there is a strong relation to the individual and the group?

He found he could not only theorize on the nature of an individuals soul without considering the nature of the organization of city that individual belongs to. As you mention everyone cannot only be a philosopher, and the farmer needs the guardian and the guardian needs the farmer.

So it seems almost unavoidable for Plato if he were interested in the nature of individuals souls to not nessecarily be interested in the nature of the society of souls.

Which leads him to grapple with the methods, the grounds on which to satisfactorily determine what type of society would be best (for who, for how many) to live in. And to prove on an each member of society basis what would be best for an individual (in any society?), In the best possible society.

The best possible society one would think would emptyly a priori tautologically be proclaimed to be the most just, most good society.

Plato had to define most just and most good, and work backwards filling in all the blanks, while considering the needs of different roles of people to fundamentally make, society, and peopleness function.
And function; best. And what are the methods of determining that best.

>>19800203
I actually laughed at this one

>>19800203
>>19804684
Explain it please

>>19804766
Pol types responded to chudjak with a "no u" attempt, pinning the look on leftists. That pic just throws it back at them. It's a circular and infallible format

>>19803610
I geuss the argument against might is right is the type of city it would turn into?

>>19800203
>b0c.png

>>19793627
Down the line Glaucon pretty much stumps Socrates with his arguments on the meaning of justice. It's pretty rad.

I love the Republic because it portrays everyone Socrates talks to as a near complete retard who is incapable of more than two steps of logical reasoning.

>Glaucon: X is surely Y.
>Socrates: Will you admit that X is Z?
>Glaucon: I will.
>Socrates: And Z is not Y?
>Glaucon: It is not.
>Socrates: Then surely X is not Y?
>Glaucon: Indeed, X cannot be Y.

>>19793627
It's surprising how plato was already talking about social constructs before these midwit lefties gave it a namd

>>19805582
this drives me crazy too, this is why i couldn't start with the greeks and therefore never read much philosophy
what is a book with actually good dialectic exchanges?

>>19793768
BTFO

>>19805365
It's been years since I read the republic, might read it in french or japanese again, but I remember that just because you're strong what you do might not be right. The argument is more or less that if you don't do right thing in the long run it Will bite your ass. And given how plato was on support of women's rights to study/vote and even participate in military, I'd argue he'd be ok with ending slavery unless they were retards that would do worse for society if they were given freedom. He hated democracy after all, since retards and power hungry people shouldn't rule or have any sort of political power

>>19793768
>>19793829
>>19793908
>>19793954
>>19793959
>>19794315
>>19800203
This is the good ol' times, next level shitposting. Thanks for the keks.