/lit/ - Literature

>>19772913
>Al-Pozid
>Al-in D'Abat
>A'Shaggid Aman
>Mabat Hart
>Al-Estidis

Is this a troll thread?

I'm asking straight out because it's obvious even with a cursory understanding of Islam that homosexual practices are forbidden and prohibited and criminalized and punishable by law.

>>19773076
>Is this a troll thread?
no
>I'm asking straight out because it's obvious even with a cursory understanding of Islam that homosexual practices are forbidden and prohibited and criminalized and punishable by law.
Islam is older than saudi arabia and the taliban. Yes it was always prohibited but muslims always had a tendency toward homosexual love, therefore they tried to justify homosexuality in all ways possible, from practices like staring at beautiful boys as a mean of contemplation to rejecting to punish homosexual activity as long as is inside one's home. Fun fact: some sufis also claimed that when Allah showed his face to them, he had the look of a beautiful boy.

>>19773076
https://qspirit.net/rumi-same-sex-love/

>>19773094
I've read your post three times over and have concluded that you are not capable of holding a reasonable discourse on this board, you are ignorant, you will argue in bad faith, and you have a hidden agenda which you would not like to disclose.

>>19773105
you are just homophobic

>>19773076
>>19773105
Homosexuality was relatively tolerated in the Islamic Middle Ages. Some books, such as the famous eleventh-century Persian text, the Qabus Nama, even encouraged the practice:
>As between women and youths do not confine your inclinations to either sex; thus you find enjoyment from both kinds without either of the two becoming inimical to you. (Chapter 15)
The Arab poet Abu Nuwas famously celebrated the pleasures of wine and boys, and writers like Attar of Nishapur (author of The Conference of the Birds) and Nizumi Aruzi paid homage to the romance between king Mahmud and his favourite slave Ayaz. The Muslim satirist Ubayd Zakani made fun of the rampant homosexuality in Islamic society:
>A good-looking Christian boy converted to Islam. The sheriff ordered his circumcision, on the first day, and raped him that very night. The next day his father asked him: "how did you find Muslims?" "Strange peoples", he responded. "Whoever accepts their faith, they cut his dick in the day and tear his ass in the night."
and
>A preacher was saying in Kashan that on the day of Resurrection the custody of the holy well of Kothar [in Paradise] will be with Imam 'Ali (the cousin of the Prophet), and he will give its water to the man of anal integrity. A man from the audience got up and said, 'Your reverence, if this is the case, he will have to put it back in the pitcher and drink it all himself.' (Obeyd-e Zakani 1985, p. 82)
as well as the predilections of king Mahmud:
>Sultan Mahmud accompanied by Talhak, the jester, attended the sermon of a certain preacher. When they arrived the preacher was saying that whoever had made love to a young boy, on the day of judgment would be made to carry him across the narrow bridge of Sirat, which leads to heaven. Sultan Mahmud was terrified and began to weep, Talhak told him: "O Sultan, do not weep, be happy that on that day you will not be left on foot either. (Obeyd-e Zakani 1985, p. 78)

The Chad Ibn Arabi surpassed all of this with his hetero love poems, admired even by Dante.

>>19773076
>The köçek (plural köçekler in Turkish) was typically a very handsome young male slave rakkas, or dancer, who usually cross-dressed in feminine attire, and was employed as an entertainer.
>The youths, often wearing heavy makeup, would curl their hair and wear it in long tresses under a small black or red velvet hat decorated with coins, jewels and gold. Their usual garb consisted of a tiny red embroidered velvet jacket with a gold-embroidered silk shirt, shalvar (baggy trousers), a long skirt and a gilt belt, knotted at the back. They were said to be "sensuous, attractive, effeminate", and their dancing "sexually provocative". Dancers minced and gyrated their hips in slow vertical and horizontal figure eights, rhythmically snapping their fingers and making suggestive gestures. Often acrobatics, tumbling and mock wrestling were part of the act. The köçeks were sexually exploited, often by the highest bidder.

>>19773094
Sharia law forbids homosexuality of any kind.

>>19772913
>>19773094
>>19773099
>>19773172
>>19773222
stop, I'm horny

>>19773222
Turks are not a good example of Islam.

>>19773234
Being racist is prohibited in Islam

>The ability to witness the divine in creation has been one of the features that has often distinguished Sufis from non-Sufis. One of the most controversial manifestations of this was shahidbazi ("playing the witness"), which was a practice of gazing at the form of young males in order to witness the inner, divine presence. Since medieval times a Persian Sufi by the name of Awad al-Din Kirmani has been most commonly associated with shahid-bazi (especially during the sama-or the ritual of Sufi music and dance). The controversy relating to Kirmani seems to have focused on the homoerotic nature of shahid-bazi, yet a close examination of the texts reveal that the criticisms about Kirmani relate to a wide range of Sufi practices and doctrines. An investigation of the contexts of these criticisms indicate that thirteenth-fourteenth-century Sufism was diverse and fluid, and that the systematisation of Sufism into brotherhoods (ariqa) which was taking place in Kirmani's lifetime had not resulted in a bland conformity of faith and practice. .

Bros, are we being raided by the gay muslim discord?

>>19773228
Sharia lawwas interpreted by different scholars who belonged to different schools, there were always exceptions. For example, you would also say that "Sharia law forbids alcohol of any kind", yet there were hanafi scholars who thought that beer is halal. Islam is not a unified religion like wahhabi pigs like to believe.

Is /lit/ really that ignorant? I'm surprised anons don't know about gay muslims throughout history.

>>19773253
I'm sorry to tell you but you don't have a good understanding of Islam, you have a little knowledge but not enough.
For example, beer is not haram according to any of the 4 (or 5) big schools if jurisprudence, what is haram is anything intoxicating so very low alcohol beer is halal (I think it's lower than 1.6% alc. vol.).

>>19773263
Well in my personal opinion islam is gay just like nazis were but without the efficiency and aesthetics

>>19773263
they are taliban propagandists

>>19773234
Turks are the only reason Islam is a major religion today. They were the Islamic intellectual and cultural center of the world for a thousand years

>>19773263
/lit/ in general only has a cursory familiarity with virtually any topic. Likely their only exposure to Islam is modern day salafist types (ironically what could be described as a 'progressive' or modernist movement within Islam), and have no idea about historical Islam at all

>>19773286
I think Arabs did just fine preserving their religion. Turks not that much.

>>19773289
They didn't preserve shit. The Turks preserved it for them kek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Arabia

>>19773292
The Muslim Turks preserved it.
Why is it so hard to admit that Muslim Turks who shunned homosexuality preserved the religion that shuns homsexuality?
You'd look quite stupid if you kept denying.

>>19773289
saudi arabia's islam is revisionist, nothing really "preserved"

>>19773298
Why are they revisionist?

>>19773320
they think that the ottomans were heretics, the founder of wahhabism made jihad against the ottoman people, literally killed actual muslims

>>19773325
They were not heretics?
Islam forbids homosexuality.

I've heard Ibn Taymiyyah and Sayid Qutb were homosexual, yet they were prominent proto-terrorist Salafists. What gives?

>>19772913
Being a homosexual is gay and most definitely not allowed in Islam. Not most Muslims scholars would say, being gay is not a sin, but acting on those urges is.

Any organization, ideology or religion that focuses almost exclusively on men or masculinity, or encourages sexual restraint/celibacy will eventually become full of homos. It's the same with bodybuilding, wrestling, the Navy, the Catholic priesthood, boy scouts, etc.

>>19773172
>>19773246
None of this hints at actual homosexuality. It is reminiscent of the Platonic idea of reaching the Form of Beauty by gazing upon beautiful earthly forms (as it's literally called shaahidbazi, witness-playing). Decadent westerns read too much of their own degenerecy into this.

>>19773288
maybe YOU should lurk more

>>19773434
less than 1% were homosexuals, that wasn't the reason of tge killings

>>19773076
You say that yet look at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
Being forbidden doesn't mean they don't do it. In fact if they insist too much on something being forbidden is because it was probably being done a lot and they were trying to stop it, next you're gonna tell me you really believe Muslims don't drink alcohol.

>>19773076
Sharia’h law: anti homosexual
Islamic (or rather, Islamicate, or Persianate) poetry: strong homosexual overtones
You’re painfully unaware of the world if you didn’t know this second point. No, these two spheres don’t have to accord. When you lock up all respectable women in the back of your house, for thousands of years, and only let men go out in society without a covered face, you end up with homosexuality. Same thing in Athens. Men seek an outlet for their desires and only find twink boys to satisfy them. They barely see women except for their own family, and the wives they’re assigned.

>>19773611

> when Sonnini travelled (A.D. 1717). The French officer, who is thoroughly trustworthy, draws the darkest picture of the widely-spread criminality especially of the bestiality and the sodomy (chapt. xv.) which formed the 'delight of the Egyptians.' During the Napoleonic conquest Jaubert in his letter to General Bruix (p. 19) says, 'Les Arabes et les Mamelouks ont traité quelques-uns de nos prisonniers comme Socrate traitait, dit-on, Alcibiade. Il fallait périr ou y passer.' Old Anglo-Egyptians still chuckle over the tale of Sa'id Pasha and M. de Ruyssenaer, the highdried and highly respectable Consul-General for the Netherlands, who was solemnly advised to make the experiment, active and passive, before offering his opinion upon the subject.

> Le Vice of course prevails more in the cities and towns of Asiatic Turkey than in the villages; yet even these are infected; while the nomad Turcomans contrast badly in this point with the Gypsies, those- Badawin of India. The Kurd population is of Iranian origin, which` means that the evil is deeply rooted: I have noted in The Nights that the great and glorious Saladin was a habitual pederast.

> Chardin tells us that houses of male prostitution were common in Persia whilst those of women were unknown: the same is the case in the present day and the boys are prepared with extreme care by diet, baths, depilation, unguents and a host of artists in cosmetics. [43] Le Vice is looked upon at most as a peccadillo and its mention crops up in every jest-book. When the Isfahan man mocked Shaykh Sa'adi, by comparing the bald pates of Shirazian elders to the bottom of a lota, a brass cup with a wide-necked opening used in the Hammam, the witty poet turned its aperture upwards and thereto likened the well-abused podex of an Isfahani youth.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/burton-te.asp

>>19772913
They got it from the Gayreeks.

>>19773690
No, you're just being idiotic. I never said that there are no gay muslims, so why would it be logical for me to claim that there are no drunk muslims.

>In fact if they insist too much on something being forbidden is because it was probably being done a lot and they were trying to stop it
Homosexual practices are forbidden from the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), if you can find evidence that there was, as you say, widespread homosexual practice amongst the Arab community from which Muhammad (pbuh) arose, then you might have a bit of an argument. Of course, you will have to also find evidence that all the things prohibited in Islam from the earliest times were widespread practices in the pre-Islamic times, and I can tell you now that attempting this would be a fool's errand since immediately it is clear that the consumption of swine flesh was never widespread amongst the Arab people.

>>19773286
Mehmet detected
Post arm from your house in Berlin

>>19773696
>strong homosexual overtones
You're only seeing those because you're looking for them and you're confusing the expression of love between two friends, or whatever, as homosexuality. You need to have overt evidence, especially considering that there's no evidence aside from your own biased interpretation.

Who the FUCK cares about Muslim buttsex 1000 years ago?

This thread is so lame. What is it with (((academics))) trying to make every former time period simultaneously oppressive but also accepting of gay shit and feminist?

>>19773717
Perverted projections of the orientalists. It's well known orientalist views on Islam cannot he trusted.

>>19773756
Burton spoke Arabic, Farsi, Punjabi, Pashto and Sindhi and he personally traveled to most of those places and saw firsthand the homosexual acts that were going on

>>19773768
don't care didn't ask + you're white

>>19773768
And I should believe his testimony because?

>>19773768
Quotes sound like Parisian fags projecting onto others and Burton was probably also gay.

I can smell who's a diaspora muslim in this thread

>>19773717
>be Eurofags
>go East looking for boy pussy
>they all call you disgusting and tell you to fuck off
>proceed to seethe and write a billion letters about how Muslims are all gay

some major coping going on in this thread

>>19773058

Half those aren't even real. Obviously this thread was made by some Christcuck

>>19773811
How can you be a 'diaspora Muslim'? Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.

>>19773736
This guy here:
>>19773172
is talking about anal integrity and rape. Unless you think it's all a metaphor of some sort.

>>19773745
Afghans are literally oppressive but also accept fucking boys in the ass and that is today, not in a remote time period. No feminism there though.

>>19773874
>but also accept fucking boys in the ass
That was a CIA op

>>19773845
I think you know what i mean

> ITT: People who can't cope with the fact that Mudslimes are homos
Even now in Pakistan and Afghanistan they still diddle little boys. They're faggots.

>>19773875
Afghans were doing the same before the CIA even existed, Afghani women went wild for British soldiers because the attention of Afghan men was diverted away to buggering boys

>The cities of Afghanistan and Sind are thoroughly saturated with Persian vice, and the people sing
>Kadr-i-kus Aughan danad, kadr-i-kunra Kabuli:
>The worth of coynte the Afghan knows: >Cabul prefers the other chose![44]
>44 It is a parody on the well-known song, Roebuck i. sect. 2, No. 1602: The goldsmith knows the worth of gold, jewellers worth of jewelry
>The worth of rose Bulbul can tell and Kambar's worth his lord, Ali. The Afghans are commercial travellers on a large scale and each caravan is accompanied by a number of boys and lads almost in woman's attire with kohl'd eyes and rouged cheeks, long tresses and henna'd fingers and toes, riding luxuriously in Kajawas or camel-panniers: they are called Kuch-i safari, or travelling wives, and the husbands trudge patiently by their sides. In Afghanistan also a frantic debauchery broke out amongst the women when they found incubi who were not pederasts; and the scandal was not the most insignificant cause of the general rising at Cabul (Nov. 1841), and the slaughter of Macnaghten, Burnes and other British officers. Resuming our way Eastward we find the Sikhs and the Moslems of the Panjab much addicted to Le Vice, although the Himalayan tribes to the north and those lying south, the Rajputs and Marathas, ignore it. The same may be said of the Kashmirians who add another Kappa to the tria Kakista, Kappadocians, Kretans, and Kilicians: the proverb says,
>Agar kaht-i-mardum uftad, az in sih jins kam giri;
>Eki Afghan, dowum Sindi,[45] siyyum badjins-i-Kashmiri:
>Though of men there be famine yet shun these three
>Afghan, Sindi and rascally Kashmiri.

>>19773931
>Afghan women went wild for Brits
Wasn’t there a British general who had a Pashtun mother and a British general for a father?

>>19772913
Are there any bara stuff in the list?

>>19773094
>>19773172
>>19773717
>>19773719
Not this meme again. Islamic societies have produced a vast amount of literature over the centuries. Of course you can find a few 'Islamic' sources supporting homosexuality/pedastry if you go looking for them. You could also find sources supporting worshipping Ali, or rejecting the Hadith, or any number of other heretical positions. Obviously 99% of other literature and scholars firmly reject those positions, so using those 1% of cherrypicked sources to make claims like
>Homosexuality was relatively tolerated
>they tried to justify homosexuality in all ways possible
>etc
Is misleading at best and bad-faith at worst. It would be like claiming pedophilia is widely accepted in the west today and only citing Ginsberg, NAMBLA, and /b/.

>>19773268

Just because something is forbidden does not mean it is not practiced. Heroin is illegal in my country yet I still do it. Just because Islam says not to be gay there will still be dudes fucking each other on the sneak.

>>19774293
Don't even try with these people, I'm pretty sure there's an organized effort by some homos to subvert history because they keep posting these threads on this board. The writing styel is the exact same as well

>>19774299
You're a retard, please refer to the post you are replying to.

>>19773864
I think that some of these stories are simply incredulous

>>19774487
Some of them are outright acknowledged as satire.

https://youtu.be/NMp2wm0VMUs

Pedophilia on young boys is a huge problem in Pakistan and Afghanistan, both of which are conservative countries that follow Islam. And /lit/ still denies that Muslims can be gay.

>>19774509
Do you need to be reminded that the Taliban had outlawed the thing in 1996?
Are you not smart?

>>19774293
>You could also find sources supporting worshipping Ali
there are shit tons of these

>>19773845
By being from an Islamic country, and being an immigrant to the west. It’s pretty fucking obvious, Ahmed

>>19773076
Persians always liked a bit of gayness. Muslim law isn't a unified whole over every denomination, so what's tolerated is a really weird ride. Some places, it's good because Islam didn't rub out the culture already present. Some places it's bad but often because it's regarded as a sign of recent decadent Westernisation. Some places it's bad because wanting to have sex with other men means you are a woman, so if you don't let the state transition you to Allah's preferred gender for you, then they have to execute you for masquerading as a man which is against God.
It's like asking "do Christians eat turkey at Christmas?" Some places do, but a lot of places never had turkeys.

>>19772913
>>Ibn Hazm
literally why

>>19773094
Muslim countries condoned pederasty en masse. Afghanistan especially is plagued with this and NATO soldiers were not allowed to intefere and execute the pederats because "it's their culture". Islam promotes sexual deviancy from which sodomy is not far away.

>>19774293
There is more pederastic poetry in the Islamic Middle East than there ever was from Greece and Rome. These aren’t isolated ‘degenerates’, they are the celebrated poets and thinkers of that civilisation

>>19773736
>you're confusing the expression of love between two friends, or whatever, as homosexuality
I don’t think writing about the first hairs on the lips of an adolescent boy or his slender wrists and ankles and his belly is a typical expression of deep friendship between males

>>19776337
>>19776349
you are not capable of holding a reasonable discourse on this board, you are ignorant, you will argue in bad faith, and you have a hidden agenda which you would not like to disclose

>>19776436
I’m not arguing in bad faith so far as I’m aware. I’m only saying what I believe is the truth. You have made this accusation numerous times, almost hypnotically, without ever providing a good reason for why the claims and the sources are wrong or misleading. Your reticence about homosexuality is a product of Western modernity. The Muslim writers of the Middle Ages were quite willing to acknowledge the endemic homoeroticism of their culture, whether or not they approved of it, and even expressed surprise about the fact Europeans were not interested in relations with boys

>>19776477
>the claims and the sources
what sources? The Gay Encyclopedia?

>>19776492
that doesn't count as a source, just so you know

Is OP a homo who thinks Muslims would be receptive to his degeneracy? OP, go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or what have you and publicly declare you're a homo and see if you can come back alive.

>>19776510
The Encyclopaedia Iranica
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/homosexuality-iii

>>19776551
I happen to be familiar with some of the poets discussed there. He is reading too much into the texts, no doubt with a liberal lgbqt agenda. If you read those poems without any projection or agenda, nothing of the sort appears to you.

>>19776550
OP is attempting to promote propaganda intended to coax Muslims into homosexual practices or the acceptance of homosexual practices and to have such things within the ummah normalised and seen as virtuous rather than marginalised and seen as degenerate.

>>19776565
So you don’t think the gazelle poetry of writing about beautiful adolescent boys and focusing on features like their boyish down (and complaining when they become hairy and fully grown) has a homoerotic dimension? Not even when paired with the social evidence provided by texts like Obeyd Zakani’s satires on the prevalence of sodomy among Muslims, or the fact that Persian mirrors for princes encouraged sex with youths and maidens, or the fact that writers like Al-Jahiz wrote entire books about ‘Concubines and Youths’ in competition, or the fact that Abu Nuwas was one of the most celebrated Arab poets despite composing obscene pederastic verses, or the fact that Muslim writers without any compunction praised the sexual relationship between King Mahmud and his catamite, or the fact that European travellers and slaves remarked on the rampant pederasty in the Middle East, or the fact that Sufists contemplated God by gazing at boys, or the fact that even to this day pederasty is practiced among mountain tribes?

>>19776578
I think he is targeting people's perception of Muslims. Muslims are known to be more devout to their religion than Christians and intolerant of Atheists. So whether OP is a Christian or a fedora, he would be fond of ruining that reputation.

>>19776592
Nothing of the sort implies the poems are about boys. In Persian you do not specify the gender of nouns and pronouns. The author is taking advantage of this ambiguity to conclude the poems are about boys, while in reality they are addressed to female lovers, sometimes erotically sometimes platonically.

>>19773058
Kek

>>19776614
How is ‘ey pesar’ (‘o boy’) ambiguous? Furthermore half the poems described in the article are about foreign soldier boys and the poets asking them to put down their weapons. Hopefully in order to deny the presence of homosexuality you are not going to insist that women were soldiers

>>19776627
The 'ey pesar' poem by Farrokhi does not have any erotic undertones. In Persian culture it is a common (or used to be common) gesture of friendly affection to kiss your male friend on the forehead or cheeks. The poems discussed of Sa'di and Hafez do not even mention a male figure. The author is reading all of it into the text.

>>19776649
They are not male equals though, they are younger boys who are in a subservient social position — especially cupbearers, which has been a symbol of pederastic servitude since at least the ancient Greeks with Zeus and Ganymede
>O boy, if you want to gladden my heart / You must give me kisses after serving me wine (Ey pesar gar del-e man kard hamiḵᵛāhi šād / Az pas-e bāda marā busa hami bāyad dād; Farroḵi [d. 1038] Divān, p. 46).
Furthermore, one expresses affection to male friends, sure, but one does not typically write about being oppressed by longing for their beauty and being unable to restrain oneself
>O boy, you carry the business of beauty beyond all limits / With such beauty you expect me to bide my time? Impossible! (Ey pesar nik ze ḥadd mibebari kār-e jamāl / Bā čonin ḥosn ze to ṣabr konam? In’t moḥāl; Natáanzi, quoted by Šams-e Qays [13th century], p. 326).
Regarding Hafez, I am not sure how a male object could be avoided for this subject matter
>However, there are also a number of poems that warn the beloved about the ravages of a beard and even curse it because it ruins the delectability of the young face. Hafez, despite his many praises for ḵaṭṭ as an element of the beloved’s beauty, also expresses the unwanted effects of growing a beard and the youth leaving adolescence (e.g., no. 155, line 6).

What do you make of this section:
>The social acceptance of homoeroticism, in spite of religious prohibition, was such that ʿOnṣor-al-Maʿāli Kay-Kāvus, a prince of Ṭabarestān, in his well-known mirror for princes, commonly known as Qābus-nāma, written as a compendium of advice for his son Gilānšāh, not only approves of male homosexuality, but suggests the best way of practicing it, even though he is by all accounts a man of piety, bound by the dictates of religion. In a chapter on “Enjoying Sexual Relations” (Tamattoʿ kardan, chap. 15) he advises a bisexual approach, employing both women and boys (ḡolāmān), but always in moderation: “so that you can benefit by both and neither of the two parties may turn against you” (pp. 86-87).
>The social acceptability of sodomy also finds an eloquent testimony in the fact that Ḥamid-al-Din Abu Bakr, the chief judge of Balḵ (12th century), includes in his famous work, Maqāmāt-e Ḥamidi, written in rhymed ornate prose on the model of the Maqāmāt of Badiʿ-al-Zamān of Hamadān and that of Abu’l-Qāsem Ḥariri (both in Arabic), a maqāma (“discourse,” lit. “assembly”), the subject of which is a debate between a sodomite (lāṭiy) and a fornicator (zāniy). They each proffer their arguments about the merits of their chosen ways, and the author, having heard their arguments, concludes that he should keep contact with both sexes and follow both schools (mellat).

>>19776723
I couldn't find the second poem in Farrokhi's divan (likely a bogus attribution). The first is an ode to Abu Bakr Hasiri, a prominent jurist of Sultan Mahmud. He was by no means in a subservient position. Probably was his friend. The "Turke Shirazi" poem of Hafez is very famous one and unanimously agreed to be addressing a female lover. I've not seen any such poem of Hafez as that paragraph describes. Regarding Qabus-nama, the title of chapter "Tamatto" means "making use". The word has no sexual connotation but the author for some reason decides that it does. The advice is probably meant to say socialize with both female and male courtiers. Again, all of these are read into the texts. This is sloppy scholarship in bad faith and subversive aims.

>>19773094
>when Allah showed his face to them, he had the look of a beautiful boy
dios mio...
kino
Where can I read this?

>>19776827
>The "Turke Shirazi" poem of Hafez is very famous one and unanimously agreed to be addressing a female lover.
There actually is not a unanimous agreement, and if anything the scale tilts toward identifying the beloved as male. The Hafez scholar Qasem Ghani theorised that the 'Turk' may have been the son of Shah Shoja Mozaffari.
Henry Wilberforce Clarke in 1891 translated the poem to signify a male beloved:
>If that Bold One (the true Beloved) of Shiraz gain our heart,
>For His dark mole, I will give Samarkand and Bukhara (both worlds).
as did Herman Bicknell in 1875
>If that Shirazian Turk would deign to take my heart within his hand,
>To make his Indian mole my own, I'd give Bukkhara and Sumarkand
Here is Peter Avery in 1952 (which is used in the Cambridge editions of Hafez)
>If that Tartar, that fair-skinned Turk of Shiraz, gets hold of my heart
>I'll give Bokhara and Samarkand for the Indian-black mole on his cheek
and even if the poem were unambiguously directed toward a woman, that is not an argument. I would not argue, for instance, that because Hafez' most famous poem is directed toward a male, that there are no love poems for women in his oeuvre.
Even more evidence for male beloveds:
>The gender of the sāqi is not usually specified, but we may assume from the homoerotic conventions of the ghazal, the masculine connotations of moḡ-bačča (magian boy more than child), and the ḵaṭṭ (downy hair on the jawline) of the sāqi (Ḳ 145:2, 155:6), that he is a not yet hirsute adolescent boy—an ephebe. The poet admires the sāqi’s hair (Ḵ. 180:3), bright cheeks (ʿāreż, 87:6; roḵ, 107:3b and 9b), lips (206:1), chubby chin (ḡabḡab, 198:2), eyebrows (90:7), eyes (48:6, 165:7), and even bare forearms (sāʿed) and alabaster legs (simin sāq, 202:8). The poet longs to pluck the rose of the bright-faced sāqi’s beauty before masculine maturity makes him an illicit object of desire (224:3-4).
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/hafez-viii

>>19776723
Regarding the word Tamatto:
>(tamatto") A. enjoyment. ('A Practical Dictionary Of The Persian Language' 1949)
>Tamatto connotes, and is indeed often used to mean, a man enjoying a female body, similar to other common terms used for sexuality such as 'az rah beh dar kardan' ('misleading' a woman to illicit sexual relationship) or 'sou'-e-estefadeh kardan' ('mis- or abusing' a woman) and so on. ('Deconstructing Sexuality in the Middle East' p. 113)
If you deny the sexual connotations of the word then you end up obliterating a lot of heterosexual description too.
>The advice is probably meant to say socialize with both female and male courtiers.
Doesn't make sense since why would courtiers be boys and not men in general? Furthermore the text, in its full length, is very clearly about love and sexual intercourse. Here is a translation by Reuben Levy:
>Chapter XV: Taking One's Pleasure
>Let it be clear to you, my son, that if you fall in love with a person, you should not indiscriminately and whether drunk or sober indulge in sexual congress. It is well-known that the seed which issues from you is the germ and soul of a person, so that when you have congress it should not be while you are in a state of intoxication, for in that condition it has detrimental effects. More properly and preferably it should come in the condition after intoxication. Yet do not indulge each time the thought comes to you; that is the behaviour of beasts, which know not the season for any action but act as they find occasion. A man, for his part, should select the proper season and thus preserve the distinction between him and the beast.
>As between women and youths, do not confine your inclinations to either sex; thus you may find enjoyment from both kinds without either of the two becoming inimical to you. Furthermore, if, as I have said, excessive copulation is harmful, [complete] abstention also has its dangers.

>>19777108
I don't care how western fags translate the Turke Shirazi poem. The actual Persian text has no gender specification as Persian nouns and pronouns are not gendered. So any male choice for translation is arbitrary. What counts is that the poem is taken to refer to a female beloved by the native Persian readership, which is what the context suggests. One queer academic's opinion does not change this fact
>>19777114
I have not read Qabusnama but if this is a verbatim translation then I will concede you this point. However, I repeat, arbitrarily assigning a male gender to the poems of Sa'di and Hafiz because Persian's pronouns are without gender is just ridiculous.

>>19777179
I don't disagree about arbitrarily assigning a male gender however couldn't one argue that assigning a female gender is equally arbitrary? There is probably no safe way to preserve the ambiguity in the English. I think it is obvious from references in the poems (say, to female religious or mythological figures) that some poems are explicitly about females while others are almost certainly about males (bringing up the hair on their lips, mourning the loss of beauty at adolescence). I also do not think that Hafez using homoerotic imagery means he wanted to copulate with boys, all it indicates to me is that he was writing in a culture that accepted it and thought boys possessed erotic beauty, as did the Greeks. Other poets are more explicit.

>>19777192
>I don't disagree about arbitrarily assigning a male gender however couldn't one argue that assigning a female gender is equally arbitrary?
No, because the female beloved is the norm, while a male beloved would be deviancy from the norm, therefore the latter would need a strong evidence to be claimed. In the lack of such evidence one must infer the poem conforms with the norms rather than arbitrarily suggesting that it doesn't.

The fact there's even ambiguity surrounding this topic probably means that they were at least a little bit gay

>>19777265
Nothing in the poems suggest a male gender. The ambiguity is an unavoidable feature of the language.

>>19777207
There are cultures such as the Greeks where literary praise for male beauty outnumbers praise for female beauty (there are more 'kalos' inscriptions on vases bearing male names than female, and the love poetry of the famous Lyric poets Anacreon, Ibycus and Theognis was mainly pederastic, even Plato's discussions of love mostly involve homosexuality). These cultures often have a high degree of sexual segregation, and the bodies of women are extensively covered up in public (as was the case in Athens). I think the anthropological evidence and the conventions of the ghazal genre make male beloveds a very strong running theme in poetry from this period, with conventions like describing them as gazelles, focusing on the budding beard, etc. In cases where the poem is describing someone in a typically male occupation and describes characteristics typical of males, I think it is appropriate to use male pronouns.

(as an amusing sidenote, Herodotus says that the Persians learned pederasty from the Greeks)

Personally I am not very familiar with Hafez and have not included him in my interest in Middle Eastern homosexuality. I've only focused on the unambiguous cases. I think Sa'di is one. Chapter 5 of the Gulistan is almost exclusively about love directed toward young males:
http://classics.mit.edu/Sadi/gulistan.6.v.html
Other examples I think are unambiguous are the poems of Abu Nuwas, Al-Katib's 'Encylopaedia of Pleasure' (Jawami` al-Ladhdha), Al-Jahiz' 'Concubines and Youths in Competition' (Kitāb Mufākharat al-jawārī wa-al-ghilmān), Al-Tifashi's 'Delight of Hearts' (نزهة الألباب), Amir Khusrau's poems (I think particularly of this verse 'Because of these pure Hindu boys, Tied up in their locks, Khusro is like a dog with a collar.')

>>19777277
Perhaps. What do you make of Greek sources attesting of pederasty and homosexual behavior in the Pre-Islamic period?

>>19777287
Where can I read more? Have you written something?

>>19777392
Ah I haven't written anything but I did make an autistic image. Pic related. This one is quite sloppy and I'm not a huge fan of it, and I can't vouch for all the texts I listed, but I think it'll give you some good breadcrumb trails to start down. Regarding secondary texts about Middle Eastern homoeroticism, I'm not sure which are the best, but here are some of the ones I skimmed for sources as well as standard texts:
>Before Homosexuality in the Arab‐Islamic World, 1500–1800 by Khaled El-Rouayheb
>Islamic Homosexualities by Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe
>Sexuality and Eroticism among Males in Muslim Societies by Arno Schmitt
>Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature by Everett K. Rowson and J.W. Wright
Each of these have their advantages and disadvantages, different theoretical considerations, etc. You might find the Encyclopaedia Iranica articles on homosexuality instructive too, I believe it's a four part series.
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/homosexuality
Sir Richard Burton's Terminal Essay (at the end of his translation of the Arabian Nights) is justly famous

>>19777287
>There are cultures such as the Greeks where literary praise for male beauty outnumbers praise for female beauty
Yes, but you seem to be presupposing Persian culture is as such, only to conclude the ghazals refer to males and then circularly confirming your presupposition. The fact is, there is no evidence Persian culture as such that you describe. There are overwhelmingly many more ghazals written with unquestionably female beloved in mind than there are ambiguous ones. I would not include Sa'di in your list since it is not clear the "slaves" in the chapter you linked refer to male or female slaves.
>>19777316
I have very little knowledge of pre-Islamic Iran, but from what I've heard from people who specialize on the subject, Zoroastrians were extremely strict in applying their sacred law, and homosexuality was banned in the Zoroastrian law. I would question the authenticity of Greek portrayals of Persians as they are clearly politically charged; I remember reading a sophistic treatise of an unnamed author who claimed Persians regularly marry their daughters and mothers, which is an absurd claim.

>>19777477
>I would not include Sa'di in your list since it is not clear the "slaves" in the chapter you linked refer to male or female slaves.
The chapter opens by discussing Mahmud's love for Iyaz/Ayaz, who is by all accounts a male.

>>19777488
Actually now that I'm reading it, Sa'di seems to be taking a light-heartedly critical stand towards it, portraying the absurdness of human nature and its desires. I liked story 3. But it doesn't seem like he is condoning homosexuality.

>>19777517
Sure. I don't disagree. There is a similar thing in ancient Greek writing sometimes, sometimes love for youths is praised, other time treated (most often in a light-hearted and affectionate way, but other times with more moral seriousness) as a human foible. There is always something faintly ridiculous about a person who is in love, especially with people who don't reciprocate their desires. I think it is evidence at least that the milieu in which Saadi existed tolerated interest in beardless youths to the extent that there was a familiar rhetoric and poetry surrounding it. I don't think pederasty in the Islamic world was ever considered a 'social good' as it was sometimes in Greece, but it was less repressed than in the Christian world. It had a very ambivalent status.

>>19777488
I am reading the Persian text now. I could argue strongly that here very little, if anything, is homoerotic. Story 3 for example is as ambiguous as Hafez's poem. I am busy right now and have to go but later if the thread is up I would resume this discussion

>>19777541
Actually Sa'di uses the word "daaman" or "skirt" in the poem, which again suggests the beloved there is female.

>>19777541
What about the ‘beardless youths’ mentioned in story 11 and the mention of the beard appearing in the poem of that story and also in the poem in story 10. I believe this chapter involves both male and female slaves

Now I beg you the question, were those people really following their tradition and sacred scriptures ? Did they really believe and lived by the cause of Islam (did they 'surreder') ?

Indeed, I have no doubt that there are urges within us. In christianity, for example, one should repress their sexuality and concentrate his energies toward other things (work, adoration,art,etc).
A slightly bissexual, taking from the crazy Freud, would have to choose and dedicate his love and being toward the opposite sex; then nullifying the bad urge or anxiety, following religion.
Something that we should also talk about are things like HOCD and POCD.

>>19777607
HOCD and POCD are anxiety disorders that can occur in people without those urges

I’m not even going to bother entertaining the idea that Islam is okay with homosexuality just because some Muslims throughout history practiced it. It’s obvious to everyone that Islam strictly and even violently forbids it.

What I’m more interested in is how the vast majority of homosexuality that has been documented throughout history is pederastic in nature, and no one ever talks about it anymore. You would think with the omnipresence of the LGBT these days that more people would point it out but no, it’s hardly mentioned that homosexuality was usually synonymous with pedophilia

>>19777634
>homosexuality was usually synonymous with pedophilia
Exactly. Either this is a fetish for the perfection of purity (often degraded in non-virgin women) or because of the androgynous features in children. It can be reasoned that the androgynous pertains more toward femininity.

>>19777623
Yes, but it can also cause groinal responses, leading a person to insanity in some cases.
How would one go about finding out in this day and age ? I literally have no idea.

>>19777634
>>19777634
No one ITT is saying Islam as a religion permits or sanctions homosexuality. We are just talking about the existence of homosexuality in Muslim cultures.

Regarding the connection between homosexuality and pederasty, most pre-modern relationships were age- and status-stratified, not just the homosexual ones. Ancient Greek marriage was typically between a man aged 30 and a bride aged 13. Saint Augustine was betrothed to a 12 year old. Mohammed married a 9 year old. It’s misleading to single out homosexuality when heterosexuality in these same periods was equally hebephilic.

>>19777663
Homosexuality between male adults is just fucking ugly. The concept is completely ugly. Uglier than Lesbianism.

>>19777663
I think the concept of Transsexuals is the only thing that beast the concept of homosexuality in its ugliness. Sleeping with a Trans so... totally fucked up act.

>>19773172
>O Sultan, do not weep, be happy that on that day you will not be left on foot either.
What a line!

>>19777457
Not the anon you're replying to but nice thread OP, thanks for the picture. It's nice having you on /lit/.

>>19777670
Says you?

>>19777706
Thanks anon however I’m not the OP. OP is using a pic and a list that I made though Kek.

>>19777711
Says the whole fucking world, even homos themselves. Look at this website, one of the last for free speech aside from dying stuff like Disqus, go /lgbt/; A bunch of mentally ill people.

>>19777726
Seethe

>>19777733

Oh no, muh literal lefty /pol/ charts. Way to go outing yourself as another twitter imbecile.
Do you also negate all the psych treatment that these people have to undergo too ? Your average lgbt mentally ill is not Alexander the great by a mile.

>>19777743
That is not lefty it is right wing. Homosexuality is traditional

>>19777563
Yes. But is there evidence these "beardless youths" in story 11 were viewed sexually? The poem only suggests that the speaker thought they are younger boys are good looking but unpleasant to be around but older boys are uglier but pleasant to be around. I see no evidence that males were sexualized. Similarly in story 1 it is only said the Sultan is kind to Iyaz, or has "mohebbat" in respect to him. I still think the homoeroticism is read into the text with good grounds.

>>19777806
>with good grounds
without*

>>19777532
>I think it is evidence at least that the milieu in which Saadi existed tolerated interest in beardless youths to the extent that there was a familiar rhetoric and poetry surrounding it.
Keep in mind poets were not considered paragon of virtue. My grandfather told me about the time in his youth when Rumi's books were considered najis (ritually unclean), so whenever people wanted to know his views on things they tried not to touch the book directly or washed their hands afterwards.

>>19777816
You are Sufi ?
Do you consider the LGBT people in your religion true-believers or faithful ?

>>19777743
What he >>19777780 said. Homosexuality is not leftist.

>>19773771
STFU with that retarded twitter bullshit.
Seriously, please take a bath with a toaster. The world will be a better place.

>>19777822
I am Shia. It's a complicated, many sided, issue. I think there are three possible scenarios: If such people believe that the laws of Islam permits sexual intimacy between members of the same sex, they have left Islam. If they believe the sacred law prohibits it but still they practice it, they are believers in a state of sin. If they do not practice it but feel attraction to it which they suppress, they are honorable believers deserving of respect.

>>19777858
Perfectly put. I view these issues in a similar way within Christianism (ortho).

>>19777806
Isn't mohabbat 'love' rather than 'kindness'?
https://www.rekhtadictionary.com/meaning-of-mohabbat
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%A8%D8%AA
Furthermore, the focus of the passage is Iyaz' bodily appearance. He is not the most handsome of the slaves, but Mahmud loves his personality, so he has become subjectively the most handsome to him. This doesn't seem like the discourse of disinterested affection to me. One does not typically consider the handsomeness of other men when deciding whether or not to become their friend. Similarly, the 'dilemma' about pretty but unpleasant boys and ugly but pleasant boys about would presumably not be a dilemma to someone who is not interested in boyish beauty. There is a trade-off of some sort they are having to perform. If one said "Young girls are pretty but obnoxious, but older women are ugly but pleasant" it would be obvious they are having some kind of heterosexual dilemma.

Furthermore, the homosexual inclinations of Mahmud (Obeyd Zakani quoted above), and the erotic character of his relationship with Ayaz, have been touched on by other writers:
>"From head to toe your elegant form has set me boiling!"
>Ayaz’s sweet mouth drawing close, closer
>His smile fully prepared, his lip set for the charge
>Then from his smile, sweetness boiled over
>He took the wine-cup from the Sultan’s hand
>Ayaz’s sweet mouth drawing close, closer
>His smile fully prepared, his lip set for the charge
>Then from his smile, sweetness boiled over
>He took the wine-cup from the Sultan’s hand
>From that moment, Ayaz was the cupbearer of Mahmud
>Whose whole world became drunk with his playful grace.
from the Masnavi by Zulali Khwansari, translated by Scott Kugle

>The king replied: "When I saw only thy face,
>my heart had no conception of each separate member.
>Now that all thy limbs have become visible to me,
>I am the slave of each of them as they are of thee.
>My heart was burning for love of thy face;
>now a hundred more fires have flared up.
>Since my heart is ravished by each and all of your members,
>to which shall I now give my love?"
from Attar of Nishapur's Ilāhī-nāma, discourse 11, part 6

lol gay

>>19773076
>>19773105
>Is this a troll thread?

>I'm asking straight out because it's obvious even with a cursory understanding of Islam that homosexual practices are forbidden and prohibited and criminalized and punishable by law.

>I've read your post three times over and have concluded that you are not capable of holding a reasonable discourse on this board, you are ignorant, you will argue in bad faith, and you have a hidden agenda which you would not like to disclose.

>>19777634
it was usually associated with boys but not prepubescents

>>19773719
Mohammad (piss be upon him)

>>19778244
Funny how I know a muslim irl who looks exactly like that pic but with more hair.

Be advised that all the sodomy praising posts in this thread were forwarded to the Hisbah committees in your respective countries, so you may undergone some brotherly counseling, repentance and reconcilliation with the normal part of the Ummah.

>>19777457
Damn it, this madlad is still at it. Do you still plan to work on the chart?

>>19773058
Ded

was reading this a while ago. it's on libgen