/lit/ - Literature

Becoming a monk should be the final end stage of the development of human spirit, where we at last reconcile with the miracle of existence and devote our lives to its beauty, the subject coming to understand its substance.
In practice Buddhism is kind of trash because it has strayed so far from the Buddha's apodictic truths of existence and instead turned into the usual god/angel nonsense worshipping.

>>19756149
>How do you know its a genuine religious feeling and not just a delusional solution to cope with the dissatisfaction of your life?
It is always the latter

>>19756149
https://www.shinzen.org/store/asceticism-skill-experiencing-discomfort/

Hijacking thread to ask: what is the best buddhist book on meditation? I mean practical, not theoretical.
Should I get The Mind Illuminated, or Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, or something else?

>>19756149
Why do you think that you can simply choose a religion to convert to?

>>19756149
>How do you know its a genuine religious feeling and not just a delusional solution to cope with the dissatisfaction of your life?
Delusional solution to cope with the dissatisfaction of your life IS the buddhist feeling, you are in the right path

>>19756404
Because you can? lol

>>19756404
I don't think you can pick a religion, but by reading about buddhism I've started feeling it a bit closer to me so I was curious whether my fascination with it is shallow curiosity or if there's something more in it which i could live by.

While becoming a monk immediately would probably be delusional (though I don't think it's that simple to just do these days anymore), becoming a lay practicioner as a test run would not be. Then you could see whether there seems to be a promising potential solution to dissatisfaction in it or not.

>I've been reading about buddhism lately and whereas there are many philosophical concepts I agree with, there are also things that seem completely nonsense and absurd.

Any tradition or system contains some good stuff and some stupid stuff. Hold on to what works / seems reasonable and set aside the rest. Though, sometimes unexpected things turn out to be significant. The things westerners usually dislike about Buddhism (certain ideas about rebirth etc.) are as far as I know pretty tangential to actual daily life Buddhist practice. The concept is obviously important since it shows up in the suttas often, but the logic of the 4 noble truths is still applicable even without it.

>>19756343
Get the mind illuminated

MTCTB recommends a controversial potentially dangerous technique

>>19756768
>MTCTB recommends a controversial potentially dangerous technique
What is it?

>>19756149
>Do you ever feel the need to detach yourself from everything, convert to buddhism and become a monk?
Every day. But i like cooming too much. I'm too weak.
>How do you know its a genuine religious feeling and not just a delusional solution to cope with the dissatisfaction of your life?
If you ever tried to live like a buddhist monk properly, sitting in solitude with no comfort, no distractions, sleeping 4 hours a day, dedicated to realization, you would realize that it's a very hard thing. The hardest thing in the world. The practice of self mastery is not a cop out. It's the exact opposite. If what you want is just a comfortable life, then being a monk will not be for you.
>I've been reading about buddhism lately and whereas there are many philosophical concepts I agree with, there are also things that seem completely nonsense and absurd.
Okay. You should read based theravada

>>19756343
Get TMI. MCTB is basically one guy's meditation diary desu without a proper introduction into what you should be doing first
>>19756779
He probably refers to the dark night meme that allegedly arise due to dry insight practices

>>19756343
>lay "meditation"
Both of those are bad options

Go with Nyanamoli Thero

https://youtube.com/c/HillsideHermitage

>>19756826
I'm not gonna join a fucking monastery to meditate
>>19756820
Okay, thanks
Is MCTB still worth reading afterwards or is it shit?

>>19756343
thats all you need

https://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/how-to-practice-chan-meditation.html

>>19756835
Although it describes a specific instance of effects that arise due to different practices than those described in TMI, MCTB is still fun to read and contains some useful info about Visuddhimagga stages of insight, and they are more universal.

>I'm not gonna join a fucking monastery to meditate
Many meditation techniques described by monks work only on retreats and in monasteries where you can meditate for 10 hours a day. TMI is tailored toward laymen.

>>19756343
Start with the jeets. Satipatthana sutta in the Digha Nikaya

>>19756193
I think the Japanese developments of Mahāyāna have been good, all things considered. They recognize the dichotomy of 自力 (self power) and 他力 (other power) in Zen and Shin Buddhism respectively. The former is much more in line with the original teachings in the pāli canon in that it emphasizes individual ascetic action in order to reach liberation, whereas the latter is overtly devotional with evocative chants and prayers to petition help from Amitābha for a fortunate rebirth (and liberation thereafter).
This is important because it recognizes two fundamentally different human types and formulates practices according to each. These practices may be mutually exclusive to some extent, but they are in themselves internally coherent and "true", just as the two sides of a mountain are opposed and yet both lead to the top. Most men require external help in the spiritual life, thus the need for worship, but some men don't need that (and can't jive with it anyway) and are thus better suited to non-devotional religions.
So while it's typologically correct to say Mahāyāna sects that emphasize prayer and devotion to bodhisattvas, devas, etc have "strayed" from original Buddhism, I think it was both inevitable and necessary for there to be such developments.

>>19756487
No you cannot. You can't force yourself to believe something, the belief is first it's a realization of truth.
You don't become a Buddhist or anything by picking a religion, they aren't menu items for you to try

>>19756895
I'm more interested in satipatthana meditation described in the Pali canon for the attainment of Jhanas
>>19756897
>Visuddhimagga
The kasinas were never described by the Buddha, were they?
Regarding retreats, are you saying it's not possible to become very proficient in meditation without attending them, and that you're fucked as a layman? I have a lot of free time by the way.

>>19756505
No. I don't want to see lay practitioners who are there for selfish purposes to test out a religion like it's a new car, there's hypocrisy in this

that's a symptom of borderline personality disorder. you want to make radical impulsive changes to your identity because you're not human and don't have one

>>19756932
Not him but there is religion in the sense of picking your favorite beliefs, which is how modern people do everything, and there is religion in the sense of a community with rituals and initiation into membership, which is extremely lax in most cases today. I would agree conversion in the sense that you choose what you like and identify as it is an extremely shallow form of "religion" insofar as it lacks validation through a communal experience, but on the other hand Buddhism has traditionally acknowledged that solitary paths are possible or even preferable in the absence of a quality community. If a personal path of beliefs, disciplines, and actions is enough to be a religion proper is ultimately a value-judgement. Maybe it constitutes a cultus/cult, not in the pejorative, but that it is merely a component of the greater religion. For in devotion to a path or to a god, by oneself, if no one else is sought to have recognition from, it is hardly religious but deeply internal.

>>19756950
>I'm more interested in satipatthana meditation described in the Pali canon for the attainment of Jhanas
Nyanamoli
>kasinas
Actually the buddha did mention the kasinas

>>19756149
I don't think I'm cut for a monastic life (Christian or otherwise). Remember that monks aren't allowed to be misanthropes.

>>19756950
>I'm more interested in satipatthana meditation described in the Pali canon for the attainment of Jhanas
Nyanamoli
>kasinas
Actually the buddha did mention the kasinas; however understanding them through the thick layer of cultural detritus most people misinterpret them through is difficult. Again, refer to Nyanamoli

>>19757017
>Actually the buddha did mention the kasinas
Of course, he condemns gambling.

>>19756950
Chan is the Chinese translation of dhyana/jñana by the way. It's not something Sri Lanka has a monopoly on. And Mahayana schools are not ignorant of the nikayas but have translated them into Sanskrit or other languages as the agamas. Since you are presumably a western outsider to any living form of Buddhism, I recommend studying as many interpretations as you can rather than prostestantically prejudging which are the real word of god or not.

>>19757006
You've framed a false dichotomy and given a definition of religion which is askew from what religion actually is.
The rest of what you say isn't wrong within the parameters you've set.

>>19756950
>The kasinas were never described by the Buddha, were they?
That is beside the point. I was referring to states of insight that were confirmed by many practicioners of TMI methods.
>>19756950
>Regarding retreats, are you saying it's not possible to become very proficient in meditation without attending them, and that you're fucked as a layman? I have a lot of free time by the way.
You can be proficient even without attending monasteries, although retreats are still recommended but they are not absolutely necessary. I managed to get to the Jhanic state without their help though. Remember that there were lay Sotapannas described in Suttas.

>>19757038
Yeah I looked into Mahayana, not my thing. Would rather stick to the Pali canon methods and general outlook

>>19756149
>just do nothing bro, don't think
cringe

>>19757026
>the buddha did mention the kasinas
Where? I will check out Nyanamoli
>>19757050
What did the first jhana feel like to you?

>>19757076
It felt like a constant surge of body-encompassing unbearable joy. When I opened my eyes my vision was tunneled and what was remaining looked like it was a reflection of a shattered mirror. Hearing was dominated by tinnitus and sounds were distant. I could form thoughts but they occupied 'smaller' part of my mind than normal. Every distracting sensation was quickly examined with full consciousness and put aside. Afterwards I didn't know whether this state lasted for one or ten minutes. There was an extra lucid afterglow that lasted for the rest of that day and made sleeping difficult.

>>19757280
If that's just the first one I wonder how the other eight are and at what point they stop being describable with words and concepts.
May I ask what your meditation routine/technique looks like?

>>19757049
>a definition of religion which is askew from what religion actually is.
In that case, do enlighten us

>>19757295
I was 3 months into TMI then, meditating for about 40 minutes twice a day.

>>19757360
>40 minutes twice a day.
I have a long way to go, but this is encouraging

>>19757380
I started from ten or fifteen minutes a day and tried to ramping up my time, like 5 minutes more every week.

>>19757421
Yes that's what I'm trying to do. It's difficult because I get strong back pain when I sit straight for long periods but lying down has my thoughts drift and fall asleep, so this is making it harder

>>19757434
I'm sitting straight with back of my butt supported with folded sheets. This way I can keep my spine straight effortlessly without any pain. Remember that sitting for tens of minutes will feel unbearable for months anyway, due to your mind playng tricks to make you stop sitting. If you manage to push through you'll be able to sit for hour without any real pain. Unlike purely mind-generated pain, real pain doesn't go away immediately after you stand up.

>>19757486
Good point I should just not be a pussy and bear with it.
By the way do you find the pre-meditation steps outlined in TMI necessary (reminding yourself of your goals, motivation and all that stuff), do you go directly for breath meditation or do you do these steps too? I find it easier to go for it directly but he recommends not to do that

>>19757513
I do the pre-meditaion steps too. Without these there is a higher chance of your meditation becoming aimless sitting filled with mind-wandering.

>>19757561
Ok then. Thanks for your advice friend.

>>19756149
Yes.
I don’t because it is a cope, for the fact that I’m a worthless schizoid autist that cannot function in decent society and would have been put out of my misery as a child in any civilization with a sense of mercy.

If everything is a dream, everything is permitted.

>>19757304
You're on the literature board, you ought to already know what religion is if you're going to talk about it.

>noun
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
a world council of religions.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.:
to enter religion.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice

No, I disagree with the base assumptions of Buddhism, though I absolutely agree with the sentiment of wanting to cut ones self out of the modern world with it's spiritual stagnation and decay that it traded in a faustian manor for material gain, and any human philosophy will contain contradictions and absurdity along side sound rationality and total coherence. Though from my understanding of the teachings of Buddha it seems that being an asetic in a monastic community is wrong, and it would be better to become a hermit and disregard comforts. For a lay practitioner though perhaps simply some fasting, of the body and the heart and some rigid discipline could be beneficial i suppose.

>>19756779
It’s called rapid noting

The author of the mind illuminated himself called it out as reckless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QHfBdHGaJk

>>19756820
No, but that’s another point, the MCTB author ignored large parts of Buddhism and put himself into a dark night

>>19756149
>>19756343
I’d like to add, I also strongly recommend the work of Shinzen Young

He reworks Buddhist meditation teachings in such a way that you can get the same gains as a monk, including a aesthetic but without leaving a modern life situation.

>>19756149
buddhist LARPing is cringe. just join a christian order. carthusians don't even talk

>>19758276
>set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe
this is metaphysics/philosophy and what our so-called internet converts are doing
>devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
>the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
>the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
>something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience
This is what takes the other bit from being a intellectual pursuit to being a religion proper

ITT: People who know nothing about the Buddhist Sangha

Firstly, are you knowledgeable the Vinaya? Obviously if you want to become a monk you should have some understanding of Buddhism 101 (4 Noble Truths, 3 Marks of Reality, noble eightfold path, karma, rebirth, 5 precepts) as well as monastic laws.

Furthermore, you are going to need to be more specific about what tradition you want to ordain in. Are you Theravada or Mahayana? Forgive me but I doubt that you are ordaining in any Tibetan lineages. So, not only do you have to consider the different traditions but also that each tradition has cultural components to it. Sri Lankan Theravada and Burmese Theravada and Thai Theravada are all different in some degree, but mostly clearly through their practices. The same goes for Mahayana as well. Are you ordaining in the US? Location and lineage are huge.

Finally, commitment. In certain lineages, such as the the Thai, you can disrobe or vow to take up a temporary ordination for a few months. It is pretty common thing for young Thai men to do and has a small tourist industry around it for foreigners now.

Finally, if there are things in it that seem completely nonsensical and absurd, then I doubt you are ready to become a monk nor do I think they will allow you to join them. Do some more reading and reflecting and come to your own conclusions about it.

>>19756149
Both
They are inseparable for me
They are a feedback loop

>>19756149
I know it's delusional cope for dissatisfaction because the Buddha allowed for female monks to enter the Sangha

>>19757064
T. anemic intellectual who wants women to attend highschool

>>19759186
The beliefs are first then the actions are an outward expression of the inward beliefs.
These retards are doing it the wrong way around and trying to convince themselves, or not caring, of the beliefs which are to reflect the outward aesthetics and ideals.
I'm telling you it's wrong and dangerous.

>>19758944
Buddhist PRACTICE is not perfect and your thorny beta bitch wishing well is giga CRINGE

>>19759237
Dude I don't speak Thai or Pali or Sanskrit

>>19759237
Pratyeshka buddha path is the only way around (((Code of Conduct))) institutionally coerced wrong view. Maybe one can attend as an alert and tenacious new comer. But the need for this material is far more than the supply institutions can share especially under these evil modern profane technocratic constraints.

>>19757024
Being a monk kind of forces you to be more sociable but it is a very peaceful way of living if you are dedicated to it and have the right intentions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OHoA4wqQEQ

>>19756950

This is a very good guided chant/meditation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozRSnlMoCs

>>19758364
It depends on the school of Buddhism. 99% of Theravada for example is very much a social religion, and monks are not isolated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OHoA4wqQEQ

>>19756505

I second this suggestion. You can go to Luang Prabang and participate in the evening chants/meditation at any of the temples to get a feel for it.

You don't have to believe in reincarnation or even god to be a Buddhist.

>>19759417
every human until around 200 years ago was brought up into some kind of religion aimed at creating more such people and regulating their social relationships and morēs. An actual conversion is only possible for those who've experienced a collapse of this in their own 'given' religion and joined themselves to a different community. Refined beliefs are not upstream of community, they are codified by such communities and imparted. That you are able to thumb through the canons of Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, etc. without ever interacting with a Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, and decide to yourself in the void of communication that "i believe this" is deeply ahistorical and the product of declining religuousity mixed with the refinement of communication technologies. But as I said before, Buddhism sort of figured this would happen and has that baked into its soteriology, that there will be periods where "the dharma" is very poorly available and one can become a "solitary buddha." The Rhinoceros Sutra expresses this view rather poetically. The pratekya-buddha concept is sourly denounced by more or less all the denominations as an inferior path, but it does exist in the soteriology, and in some sense is the only thing that makes sense for a westerner who feels an affinity to Buddhism but does not want to move to Asia or proselytize.

>>19759625
I don't think you're disagreeing with me, although you have some factual inaccuracies for example if you look at the history of Europe and the Near East and around the Mediterranean you'll see that many people have indeed changed their religion over the last 2'000 years (at least) and there are several examples of communities and nations which held out longer on there older religions. It's not relevant whether or not a future convert has ever met a member of the particular religion for the convert to believe that the religion is the truth.
Anyway, my point is that accepting a religion as truth is necessary for belonging to that religion.

>>19756149
yeah but I love pussy too much. is there a religion that practices monastic life but you're allowed to bang?

>>19759689
Religion is not a lifestyle choice

>>19756149
Detachment isn't an exclusively Buddhist concept. The Greeks had a similar notion of ataraxia, which was the goal of Stoics, Epicureans, and Pyrrhonists.

IMO, while detachment makes sense from a purely rational standpoint, it makes life into a boring tyranny akin to Nietzsche's criticism. For example, one cannot claim to love one's wife and kids and at the same time feel detached from them.

>>19759685
>many people have indeed changed their religion over the last 2'000 years
I don't disagree but the conversion from say Zoroastrianism to Islam, or from Hellenism to Christianity, or from Bön shamanism to Mahayana Buddhism roughly speaking involves some form of state collapse, regime change, coercion, etc. such that an older community loses some social advantages to a new one, regardless of the validity of any religious claims, beliefs, etc. advanced by either. There is more to it historically than an educated consumer of literature comparing doctrines, which is in some sense the behavior of a faithless priest, who would have gone about his religious studies quite differently had he lived in a previous era.

>>19759715
This black yarn you're yanking at is the only thing that interests me. I don't give a shit about Christianity, the shadow on the Normie wall. I am skeptical to all dominant powers as the same tentacle beast at this point and this older wiser forbidden accrued wisdom teeming like a low hanging fruit available with just a tad of "luciferian" curiosity. I don't believe in Satan or Lucifer but I see this knowledge in antiquity is quietly reposed outside of the cave man grumbling under these shadow religions of modernity. I love Bon out of explorer's gut instinct. I don't expect to find a perfect package religion to replace the "here bro just stand in line and support the [LEADER FIGURE GROUP GUILD]" turn key religions. I expect that just behind these veils is one obvious consensus like a buffet where you can't go wrong and anyone you meet is on a right track to the same place: the road to truth and goodness.

>>19756918
I'm sorry but this is a bunch of pseud babble. Are you 15?

As one basic thing, even the most traditionalist Theravada sects stress the important of community and lineage (ie having a teacher and not relying on shit from the internet) because they recognized the danger of narcissism and solipsism inherent when talking about these kinds of ideas.

I can only make guesses off of the subtext of what you've written- but on that basis my assumption here is your falling into the same trap most lay people do around Buddhism (I dont say that because I want to pass myself off as any type of ordained laity myself - I make that particular choice of word to avoid using "westerners" as frankly even those born into "Buddhist" countries are just as likely to have these types of misunderstandings)

If you're really interested in Buddhism, of any lineage, I hope you'll go and find a good teacher. Otherwise I hope you stop regurgitating this pretentious orentialist slop. It is my sincere conviction that you only mislead yourself and others. Have a good day and good luck with your self-progress.

>>19759877

>>19756343
My two cents: With Each and Every Breath is a good first book. Then once you've established a practice of 30-45min/day read Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington. Also look up the 6Rs technique. Don't read too many books either. Pick one method and just stick with it for at least 6 months. Good luck. May you realize unbinding in this very life.

>>19759877
Only track we are all on is death. For Plato, philosophy was preparation for death. So how we do that, i.e. how do we live we can, becomes the big question

>>19756149
>delusional solution
Can you explain this?

>>19756149
>Do you ever feel the need to detach yourself from everything, convert to buddhism and become a monk?
There are certainly books about the experience of westerners becoming Buddhist monks, the challenges they faced and insights they gained.
I attended a Zen group in my city for several years and spent a short time at a Zen centre in Japan. I like *it* and it continues to inform my daily life, but the practice has fallen away -- for me for now.

>>19756193
Dilate, bro.

>>19761645
>t. redditor

>>19760865
Yes; note that English isn’t my first language, so my explanation might not be as clear as I want it to be.

I (personally) see some forms of religious belief as delusions, in the sense that the doctrine their believers follow have clearly some fallacies and are thus invalid and irrational from a logical point of view (take as an example fundamentalists who read religious texts literally, newer cults like Scientology etc.). I do not despise religions in any way as I’m an agnostic myself, but I believe there’s a boundary between delusion (eg. firmly believing in something that clearly isn’t real) and actual belief, and I have been asking myself if one could tell the two apart when researching and being interested in a certain religion from a “faith point of view” (I don’t really know how to word that one).