/lit/ - Literature

Take high doses of strong psychedelics like DMT multiple times

Just live in pain every moment of your life. That worked for me.

Leave behind a legacy.

>>19752232
How can you be afraid of something that you cannot experience? It's just like you were and suddenly you disappeared, but actually, nothing happened because you cannot perceive it.

>>19752232
Just figure it out chump.

>>19752232
Death is peaceful. Assuming you don't exist meaningfully after death, you will be free from this mortal coil and your physical being will be at rest no matter what else happens from that point. You will no longer have to worry about whatever ailments our living existence brings to us.

>>19752232
kys

read schopenhauer if you're an atheist

>>19752296
No such thing

How do I know that loving life is not a form of ignorance? How do I know disliking death is not a weak farewell of the sort when we don’t know about the return? Miss Li Zhi cries when she is betrothed to someone’s son, and when she first goes off to the Jin state soaks her clothing with her tears; but then she arrives at the kings abode, sleeps with the king in his bed, eats fattened livestock and then starts to regret her tears. How do I know the dead do not regret their former clinging to life, We dream of eating and drinking and on awaking cry bitterly, we dream of weeping and wailing and awake in a good mood to go off hunting. When we dream, we don’t know it as a dream, and in our dreams, judge something else as a dream. On awakening, we know it was a dream, and there could be another greater awakening in which we know a greater dream, and under these the conditions the ignorant think they are as enlightened as if they had learned it by an investigation. Gentlemen to shepherds inherently do this!

>>19752388
my english teacher loved that poem

>>19752232
lol
lmao

>>19752316
Knowing that you won't perceive it is part of its terrifying nature. You can say what you will about not knowing you're dead, but imagine the act of dying. You won't be there for the aftermath, but may end up with a death where YOU exist while knowing that in a moment you won't anymore. Of course, that's assuming there's nothing but unceasing "darkness" after death. Could you kill yourself right this moment without the slightest hesitation, despite knowing what you know?

>>19752389
Man lives his life in company with worry, and if he lives a long while till he’s dull and doddering, then he has spent that much time worrying instead of dying, a bitter lot indeed!

>>19752316
>>19752349
>but you won't exist to experience death
Literally the reason i'm afraid of it

That's like saying

>don't be afraid of fire, it will just burn off your skin and bones in agony

>>19752415
>Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not. Why should I fear that which can only exist when I do not?
>t. Epicurus
It's a pretty simple idea and if you're filtered by it there's no hope for you. Were you afraid before being born?

>>19752232
Read this http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1915_186.html

>>19752232
listen to Sean Paul

>>19752499
Yes, I too have seen that quote. Nobody disbutes this. The concept of it is simple, but the the reality of it is not.
>Were you afraid before being born?
No, because I didn't exist. But I do now, and ceasing to exist is an entirely different matter to not existing. I said as much in my previous post. I find it terribly arrogant of you to post a quote not uttered by you and then pretend like it's a done deal. You don't know what you'll feel before the reality sets in. Would you have zero qualms about killing yourself right this instant, anon? I doubt it

>>19752415
Embrace the pragmatic naturalism akin to Nietzsche and live a life to the utmost potency of your individual.

The death will come eventually, that's is probably as big of a certainty as "I think, therefore I am".
So why worry about something inevitable?
I believe Seneca wrote in his Letters that "a man is foolish to live his life in the dread of one moment after which is naught". And before that moment comes you could live full of felicity(yes, the word is archaic, but best describing.)

>>19752464
> Literally the reason i'm afraid of it
You attribute to much importance to your ego. It sure is nice to think that you were sent to this world as an epitome of some god, of sort. That your personality is special. But as with all areas we eventually come to understand, materialism always overcomes the idealism (coming back to what I've said above about looking at a world from a naturalistic perspective) — I don't want to say here that one should become a soulless egoist. I like to think about this as hiding idealism inside yourself, while accepting to view the world pragmatically.
So coming back to the ego, we're probably just a result of coincidental conditions, and not of any divine origin. I'd say, if there is god or gods, our existence is probably merely for their amusement, so fuck it, make them laugh to death.
I should say that this is coming from rather despondent guy, and I'd wish to live to the ideals I am now sharing with you. But, nevertheless, I believe them to be true.

>>19752574
>>19752464
based anon
people dont understand how you cant just stop a real genuine fear with some mental equations

>>19752499
Well, that's true, but you are still supposed to consider the terribleness of the moment of death. When something is pressing upon you, telling it's the end.

I like what Wittgenstein says, that we will never die because death is not us.

I mostly just live with the faith that when death does reach me I will either have a few last moments where it just kind of "makes sense" and I realise its not that bad to let go or it will happen so fast or unexpectedly that my fear of it will not even be a factor. It makes me realise its fine to fear it right now, just like I feared so many things in my life that when they came to pass were actually "easier" when it came to actually live them/do them.

I guess its just faith that it wont be that bad when the time comes, its what calms me the most when the fear of death and the absolute unknown comes creeping up.

>>19752580
You're so caught up in the philosophy on death that you're not actually contemplating the reality. You seem to be hiding behind other people's thoughts on the matter, contemplating it by proxy. I get not living your life in fear of death, but not understanding it and not feeling a certain dread in those moments where you really, TRULY realize that death is coming - that I do not understand. If you haven't had a moment like that then it may yet come. You can feel your animal brain try to grasp the experience and the thought that it WILL happen to you. Your primal instincts screaming at you while you feel in your stomach that death is real

>>19752622
beautifully put

>>19752232
do you have the name of that paint or the artist?

people who die and are brought back say its peaceful eternity, although there are some that see nothing and others who see jizzus

>>19752654
Not OP but thats Lucifer by Franz Von Stuck

I turn to the great American philosophers.

"There will come a time
When I no longer am
I will take my last breath
And on that day
I'll be dying

At that time will I feel at ease
Will I dream and be at peace
These are things that no one knows
Come on help me now

Why must I think of this until I find
Peace and quiet in the clouding of my mind
There are times when I never come around
I can tell things are getting ok now"

https://youtu.be/CPc9jL7G9zs

>>19752647
Thank you, anon

>>19752388
Beat me to it.

>>19752574
>The concept of it is simple, but the the reality of it is not.
The reality is simple: you cease to exist. That's all there is to it. Are you afraid of death or no longer existing? Because you've been describing death in terms of ceasing to exist and it really is as simple as rationalizing the fact you cannot experience negative emotions if you no longer exist--so you're basically wasting time and energy worrying about a state of affairs you won't experience anyway (i.e. it's as nonsensical as picturing yourself worrying about the state of affairs before being born--that's the point of the analogy, not that you exist now and therefore have something to be afraid of in the future).

> I find it terribly arrogant of you to post a quote not uttered by you and then pretend like it's a done deal.
And not terribly arrogant to tell me to kill myself as if that's the only way you can be assured someone is ok with their mortality? It seems like you have other problems other than the fear of death anon.

Listen, someone else suggested that you take psychedelics. I'd recommend that as well (you seem pretty wrapped up in your ego and experiencing "ego-loss" would probably be beneficial for you). However, the fact you aren't able to clearly formulate that of which you're afraid alongside the focus implied by equating suicide with acceptance of mortality (instead of a refusal to keep living) means that could be dangerous.

Also, are you afraid of death or the process of dying? I've spent time on a few palliative care wards and I can tell you that if you die in a hospital you're going to be so doped up you won't know what's going on most of the time (i.e. concerning the last few days or weeks). If you die suddenly you don't have to worry about that anyway.

>>19752622
Of course I've had moment like these. They are probably one of the reasons I took interest in philosophy in the first place. If I were to die from heart attack right now, or a roof was to fall onto my head that would surely be unfortunate, — I would rather not die, — but I will surely die anyway. I have internalized the idea. It might even happen in a few minutes from now. But it is something outside of my control. To give even a thought to the fear before the inevitable is to torment yourself with something you could otherwise dismiss, because, you know, we're can manipulate our thoughts as rational beings that we are. I can build cognitive walls, can burn my worries away. It requires practice, but I sure have experienced its practical success.

It might be that you live anticipating something good to happen to you and so you fear of dying before you can experience that good. Not sure if this describes you, but I think you believe you were predestined to experience that something. But after "taking a look around", my opinion is that there is no guarding angel, no "justice" to equalize the good and bad in your life. Many people live very unfortunate lives, even if they deserved — if some abstract being who deals to everyone according to the idea of justice exists — an otherwise good life. Innocence sure is beautiful, but "farewell, romantics".
Yes, I can TRULY realize that death is coming, but it's probably because I've observed a little and read a little that I'm not to much preoccupied with the worrying about it.
I die everyday. I imagine myself being hit with a car when I walk across the street, or falling onto the train tracks. Maybe it's because I've pictured myself dying in these gruesome ways, I'm not concerned with "but how could this happen to me". People die because of stupidity of other people, should they have lived all their live worrying about stupid person one day bringing an end to their life? People die because of most ridiculous coincidences. Life of truly "saint" people has no more value in the eyes of the universe than the life of most deprived.

Check this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster
These people where all noblemen. Let's imagine they were men of "higher" nature. Imagine yourself in their place, imagine, you aspire to be a nobleman: you read books, spend time denying yourself the simple pleasures, praise God and his holy circle, and then one day you die, suffocating in liquid shit.
If such stupidity is allowed to happen do you really believe that death is of any importance to worry about it? I might not be expressing my thoughts correctly, but I hope you see my point. Stupid deaths, the sufferings of those who cognizantly nurture innocence in themselves, one might even think that idealists, believing life has any inherit worth, living as to be some sort of GOOD human "in gods eyes", are most ridiculed by the gods.

When a skilled smith is casting metal, if the metal should leap up and say, 'I insist upon being made into a Moye!' he would surely regard it as very inauspicious metal indeed. Now, having had the audacity to take on human form once, if I should say, 'I don't want to be anything but a man! Nothing but a man!', the Creator would surely regard me as a most inauspicious sort of person. So now I think of heaven and earth as a great furnace, and the Creator as a skilled smith. Where could he send me that would not be all right? I will go off to sleep peacefully, and then with a start I will wake up.
>>19752420
There is no disagreement in our hearts anon.

>>19752547
What about Sean Pen

>>19752700
>America
>Great philosophers
Top kek

>>19752908
has he got any good choones?

>>19752800
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster
>the emperor conveniently happened to be the only one who survived
>noblemen being stupid enough to building a meeting room over a literal pit of shit
Unrelated, but that just sounds like the Emperor assassinated all those guys, threw their bodies into the pit of shit, and then told his priests or whatever to make up a story about a disaster where the floor collapsed into that pit lmao

Yet further evidence that history is full of made up bullshit by the winners

>>19752232
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xY4AyxiN48

>>19752388
Wrong

>>19752232
Be more afraid of not living. Accept you aren't important except to those around you at any given time. If you're not important to anyone you have bigger things to worry about than not existing. Finally: don't be a pussy.

>>19752998
Funnily enough I remember these from a meme compilation, but check this one as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

> placed into centrifuges and spun until death; injected with animal blood; exposed to lethal doses of x-rays; subjected to various chemical weapons inside gas chambers; injected with sea water; and burned or buried alive.

> In a video interview, former Unit member Okawa Fukumatsu admitted to having vivisected a pregnant woman.

You could also dismiss this as fiction written by the winners, but the studies of those experiments had found their use afterwards.
And even if everything written there was made up, there is no doubt in my mind humanity has subjects its members to the worst of fates and tortures. (Like that roman torture to send someone in a boat tied up and covered with honey(?) for them to be eventually consumed by insects breeding inside them.)
I can't see any reason why any "creator" would allow this to happen other than for their amusement.

Life has no value in the eyes of the universe, only as much as we attribute to our existence. Good thing religion exists, people can be brainwashed(and I do not mean this in a slightest derogatory way, rather, in a sense of "wired") to make them believe like there is some good waiting for them in the afterlife. Because that is all we want want for yourself on the most fundamental level — good.
Fuck, can you imagine being lost in cold woods, certain death starts gnawing at you at the back of your mind. How horrible it would be KNOWING there is no one to commiserate with you, that there is no divine providence. You can, of course, create yourself tulpas, as a way out of the godless world and be content, as long as your mental barriers stands. But it's more likely, I think, the creators are placing bets on the outcome of your life, they are just having fun, after all, I doubt, — if my meta about gods is at least somewhat sound, — they know the outcome of the world they've created. Otherwise, why create something in the first place if you know the outcome. Must be a purpose then, a primordial will for something. But if such a will allows this much suffering, I doubt the creators would hold sacred some individual life, rather they would have all of it serve their self-interest.
>>

>>19753291
But maybe I'm looking at it from a too human of a perspective.
In any way it's from this nihilism I find my mind inclined to the pragmatism of ideas. I'll wear them like gloves, as long as they work for me. Life has no innate worth to it, and I am probably not some special consciousness. Why do we think that an ability to observe the world is something special anyway, and not just a result of our evolved nervous system in need of controlling itself? An utmost anthropocentric belief of people too afraid their life doesn't actually mean anything. I am just an animal. Fulfilling the needs of my consciousness is no more out of being "natural" than feeding myself. Just animals frolicing around. Just life trying to continue itself. Why should I give any meaning to death if there is none to life?

Don't listen to these textwall pseuds. Ask your local psychobiologist about Dylar.

https://scare-factor.fandom.com/wiki/The_Physics_of_Hell

>>19752464
>in agony
You misunderstand. There (possibly will) be no agony through your lack of perception of it.

>>19754013
this assumes that the infinite probability only reconstructs you over and over again. why wouldn't the universe randomly start again, or give you the body of an immortal robot space unicorn at some point?

>>19752622
I've had several close calls in my own life, and for me personally the fear of death always came after the fact. One time as a child I nearly was swept away and drowned, and another time I came close to falling a great height, and a final time after being struck by a car I passed out from shock and resigned myself to die. In the last case I was more annoyed with the panic around me, specifically thinking, "I wish that woman would stop screaming, this is a ridiculous way to go", and then resigned myself to it. Only hours after the fact did I truly fear the death I was about to get, and that distinct feeling of dread.
Perhaps the idea of dying is more dreadful than actually dying, and perhaps that's true for all people. I'm a religious person, and I fear dying because I fear burning in hell forever for some spiritual misdeed. If death was as atheist's say -- which is, nonexistence without awareness -- I would be very okay with that, as when you contemplate the eternal nature and intensity of pain in hell long enough, oblivion actually seems not so bad.
Additionally, there must be a distinction between death and dying. Getting something like ALS and slowly degrading and becoming entombed in your own flesh seems far more terrifying and dreadful to me than say being blown to fine red mist in a war.

>>19752232
The only thing that bothers me is exactly how much it could end up hurting to die. I have never broken a bone. I have fallen from pretty high and had a rock punch a hole in my shin, I have stabbed my hand through with a nail, and I got hit by a car while jogging. So I know a little bit about pain. But the idea of lying on my death bed in agony still gets me.

The eternal nothingness is the only thing I have left to look forward to. I can't imagine anything better than not having to wake up again. Every night I go to sleep I fantasize about a quick low pain death in my sleep. Just a sudden jolt, a reach for my chest and then lights out forever.

Dogs get better deaths than we do. Last time I had a dog put down I could only think about how easy it would be to force that needle into me instead. But I can't be sure the dosage would be adequate, even if the animal was a 175 pound Great Dane.

>>19754252
why not make something of yourself before you die

>>19754258
Trying my best and have since childhood. The relentless pain and sorrow are a great weight on me. I'm keeping on up the hill as long as my family needs me. But eventually my foot will slip and the stone will roll back and crush me. Hopefully I'm not unlucky enough for reincarnation to be real. There's nothing to make of myself. I am a beast of burden, and the burden is duty and obligation.

>>19754276
Feel you, anon. You are not alone, even if you don't know or feel it.

>>19752790
>The reality is simple: you cease to exist. That's all there is to it. Are you afraid of death or no longer existing? Because you've been describing death in terms of ceasing to exist and it really is as simple as rationalizing the fact you cannot experience negative emotions if you no longer exist
It's the dying. Like I've said not existing isn't the problem. It's the existing and knowing you won't. It's the process of ceasing to exist. It's the anti-thesis of what I've been doing all my life. Anyone who has ever been put under for surgery "knows" (if it is nonexistence that awaits us) what that entails. But you should understand the fear or surreal worry that would accompany you if you were told you won't wake up again when they ask you to count down from 10. The experience, or lack of it, of being under is easy but the prospect of never coming up again is not. No more words or thoughts. To never see a sight again, to never smell or hear. Never a taste or a touch again. No more wind, no more sky. No more trees or the sun. No more stars or moon. No more panting as you run or peace as you walk. All of that will never come again
>And not terribly arrogant to tell me to kill myself as if that's the only way you can be assured someone is ok with their mortality? It seems like you have other problems other than the fear of death anon.
Yes, it is extreme of me but not meant as an insult. But if we say that you could press a button and cease to exist in five minutes, what prevents you? Making the decision not to shows a certain apprehension at the idea to some degree. You exist and at the core you want to continue for whatever reason
>Listen, someone else suggested that you take psychedelics. I'd recommend that as well
And I have. Shrooms were a pleasant experience. Salvia was not - I thought I had died and was missing my opportunity to get into heaven (though I am not religious). But that experience was for me not the same as fearing nonexistence.

>>19752232
you should be

>>19752232
be good

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fY8dENdB620

>>19752800
>It might be that you live anticipating something good to happen to you and so you fear of dying before you can experience that good. Not sure if this describes you, but I think you believe you were predestined to experience that something
No, that isn't it. I am not expecting anything special of the future. What I have right now is enough for me, pain and sorrow included
>Yes, I can TRULY realize that death is coming, but it's probably because I've observed a little and read a little that I'm not to much preoccupied with the worrying about it
The experience I described was a physical reaction and not wholly cerebral - a deep sense of dread running through my nervous system. I don't feel it right now and can't summon it at will. I feel none of it as you and I talk on the subject, other than the memory of the feeling
>I die everyday. I imagine myself being hit with a car when I walk across the street, or falling onto the train tracks.
I do that too sometimes, but that is not the same as me feeling it. I don't spend my life worrying about death, because it is still abstract to me. It is the short bursts where the abstraction disappears and the idea presents itself, in all its surreal nature, as a concrete event that must occur
>I might not be expressing my thoughts correctly, but I hope you see my point.
I do. I even intellectually agree. The reason I'm in this conversation is simply due to that anon saying he didn't understand people fearing death. Anyone that has ever had to rationalize death has done so out of some inherent fear or apprehension or confusion, else it would not need rationalizing

>>19754175
>Perhaps the idea of dying is more dreadful than actually dying
I think that is exactly it
>I'm a religious person, and I fear dying because I fear burning in hell forever for some spiritual misdeed
That's awful, yet there is a comfort that you have an opportunity to end up in heaven. Though of course I'd rather want to not exist than be in hell, so that sounds worse than what I fear
>Additionally, there must be a distinction between death and dying. Getting something like ALS and slowly degrading and becoming entombed in your own flesh seems far more terrifying and dreadful to me than say being blown to fine red mist in a war.
Agreed

>>19754743
I know you weren't responding to me, but this post only confirms what I've stated before. You attribute too much importance to your ego. And because of that you give too much importance to your experiences of self and the world.

You indicated that it's the loss of experiences that you are afraid of:
> The experience, or lack of it, of being under is easy but the prospect of never coming up again is not. No more words or thoughts. To never see a sight again, to never smell or hear. Never a taste or a touch again. No more wind, no more sky.
You are afraid of dying because you are afraid to never experience these in the future, meaning, you anticipate them, almost as a given.
>>19752800
>I think you believe you were predestined to experience that something


Let's try it like this:
Why are you afraid of being no more?
> Because in me there is a wish to continue.
Why?
> Because I am afraid to never again experience the world.
Why are you afraid of no more being able to experience a world? (this is the question you don't seem to ask yourself.)
> No more (words, thoughts, feelings, no more experience)
All of these are exist in present time only. You are grabbing and holding onto these abstracts from another abstract thought of future. But the future does not exist for a human being, we can only and ONLY experience present moment. There exists no time where these experiences you describe exist. You are afraid of loosing something you don't even have.You wish for them to exist, but there is no certainty you'll ever get them. You're afraid of death because you feel entitled to existence. Death to you is not letting go of your present self, but also of that which you think you have IN THE FUTURE. And as I've said it is something you simply don't have at all.


>>19754797
> The experience I described was a physical reaction and not wholly cerebral
> It is the short bursts where the abstraction disappears and the idea presents itself...
(I don't mean to sound patronizing here) Yes, it's your self-preservation instinct. Again, we are just animals. The ability to think is unlikely to be of some divine nature.

>>19754825
>I know you weren't responding to me, but this post only confirms what I've stated before. You attribute too much importance to your ego. And because of that you give too much importance to your experiences of self and the world.
Of course. I cannot claim to have mastered myself or grown enough of the "other" entity present in our minds, observing such thoughts independent of their origin. I think it is the fewest people who can truly claim to be that
>You are afraid of dying because you are afraid to never experience these in the future, meaning, you anticipate them, almost as a given.
They are a given as long I exist, or at least the knowledge of those experiences are
>(I don't mean to sound patronizing here) Yes, it's your self-preservation instinct. Again, we are just animals.
Indeed

>>19752388
The human brain doesn't give a fuck about what happens 10,000 years from now. We just want some faces at our deathbed, idiot.

>>19752316
We know your heart stopping is fucking painful what with all the clutched chests and pained faces. It's pretty safe to assume that from that moment onward there's not a moment of peace, just pain until it all goes away. No time to enjoy what you enjoyed. Just chest pain and the knowing thought that you're dying and this is the last stupid thing that's happening to you.

Cтoп и 停止 ,, https://careertrend.com/info-8307206-jobs-involve-working-airport-tarmac.html ,, https://workgearz.com/best-ear-protectors-for-airport-workers/

>>19754848
Well, anon, don't we find ourselves in a very amusing predicament.

— If we agree on that it's the veneration for your ego that causes the worry and so we need only to keep our notion of self in check;
— If we agree on that the worries of loss exist only because of our grabbing onto them from the future, which we don't have;

> They are a given as long I exist
They cannot be. At least not in the meaning you convey in that sentence. If you are walking from point A to point B, it is not given that you will reach you destination, there is a chance you'll die on your way. Same login applies to experiences.
> ...or at least the knowledge of those experiences...
We cannot have knowledge of future events. So we do not actually have it.

— And if we agree on that we are merely animals;

—— Then why should one worry about death as if it is some grinder for "us, the divine beings granted by benevolent god the gift of consciousness"?

>>19754884
>They cannot be. At least not in the meaning you convey in that sentence. If you are walking from point A to point B, it is not given that you will reach you destination
But it is a given that I know I'm setting out from A to get to B
>We cannot have knowledge of future events. So we do not actually have it.
No, I mean if I were never to see the moon again I would still know the experience of it
>Then why should one worry about death as if it is some grinder for "us, the divine beings granted by benevolent god the gift of consciousness"?
For the reasons I have given. I can rationalize all I want, I still have fear in me as I currently am. It is instinctive, as you have said, like all fear or primal needs. At any rate I won't know how I'll feel when the time comes (if I even see it coming)

>>19754884
Also, I would like to add is that your thoughts come from the instinctive apprehension of death. You rationalize it because your animal brain needs to. It is only natural that the greatest mystery known to man should provoke so much attention. Have no doubt that it comes out of the same place as my own thoughts

>>19752388
>wow I'll be forgotten in thousands of years better hang myself today
Lmao don't have kids.

>>19752388
But we do remember Ozymandias. He was Ramses the Great. Look at all the stuff he made. You should really do that dude.

The ONLY bad thing about death that I can think of is that my brother would suffer from it. I'd like to die with dignity, but it's not a big deal. I even hope I will be judged and punished for the things that I've done wrong, but they're not enough to burden me in life. If there's no judgement there's no loss there either.

Quite frankly I don't know what the fuck you're on about.

>>19754743
>It's the existing and knowing you won't.
Again, the fact is that you'll be in the same state as you were before you were born. You haven't offered any reasons as to why that is scary except for describing nonexistence as something you experience when it is something you, by definition, cannot. It's as simple as that.
>But if we say that you could press a button and cease to exist in five minutes, what prevents you?
Reasons for living aren't the same as reasons for not dying. For example, I find value in the social relationships I've developed and their continuation and benefit to others would be a reason to continue living and isn't linked to fear of nonexistence.
>psyhadelics
You don't experience dissolution of the ego every time you take shrooms. You'll know it when it happens.

>>19752232
You can try to brainwash yourself into not.
But objectively you're wired to fear death.

What I wonder is that if having successful children ease the fear dying at a physiological level?
If I successfully reproduced and the children are adults and reproduced themselves it would make sense my genes would ease out on my fear of death and instead focus on fearing that my progeniture dies right?

Your self is the result of a very specific arrangement of matter. There is a nonzero chance that this arrangement of matter will popup again in the future and you'll live again.

We're all going to make it.

>>19754907
> But it is a given that I know I'm setting out from A to get to B
Yes, again, only exists in present moment. The next moment, this "given" might simply no longer be that, a "given".

> No, I mean if I were never to see the moon again I would still know the experience of it.
That knowledge is only present in THIS moment in time. If moon is a metaphor for experience,
[If I were never to experience something again I would still know the experience of that something]
I cannot, then, see how simply knowing something exists (<— again we find ourselves taking about the present moment only) guaranties it's continuance to the moment in the future where we can experience it once again. Simply knowing the experience in the moment, does warrant their anticipation in the future.
Knowledge of the moon does not imply any future experience of it, hence we should not be afraid of loosing that experience. Knowledge of experience is simply a memory from the past. You could invoke it by some eidetic memory into the present moment, but it doesn't relate in any way to the future.

> I can rationalize all I want, I still have fear in me as I currently am. It is instinctive...
>>19754922
> I would like to add is that your thoughts come from the instinctive apprehension of death. You rationalize it because your animal brain needs to...
Well then, the whole question becomes "how do we overcome our instincts", to which all will answer "we can't. Maybe only to a degree."
If it's the instinctive apprehension of death we are trying to eliminate, our monkey brain is what prohibits us from doing so. Another reason to conclude that there isn't a reason to be afraid of death. After all, when you die, you die as a rational being and so being a rational being you can invoke all these musings we've been talking about and finally die, while telling your monkey brain "hush", without any worry.

>>19754955
>Again, the fact is that you'll be in the same state as you were before you were born. You haven't offered any reasons as to why that is scary except for describing nonexistence as something you experience when it is something you, by definition, cannot. It's as simple as that.
I don't think most people need a description for why that is. If you don't feel an instinctive apprehension of it, seeing as you are existing and death will undo that, then I don't really know what to say. You may truly be someone who doesn't fear death, even in the moments before when you know it will happen. If that's the case then I can't possibly make any argument that will convince you
>Reasons for living aren't the same as reasons for not dying. For example, I find value in the social relationships I've developed and their continuation and benefit to others would be a reason to continue living and isn't linked to fear of nonexistence.
So that is want of existence. This describes to a point that you value existence over nonexistence, even if you do not viscerally feel it
>You don't experience dissolution of the ego every time you take shrooms. You'll know it when it happens.
I do not believe that experiencing ego death on psychedelics means that you go on to live like that. I also find it a dubious term. What exactly do you mean by ego death?

I think it's not so much death that's terrifying as the fact that it is eternal. Eternity is terrifying; being in one same condition forever is terrifying. Hell is defined as a state of perpetual, conscious torment and people dread it as much or more as they dread the end of consciousness.

Test

>>19754926
The real cope is that there isn't a single real world equivalent to such a thing. We remember all who have made great works and will forever.
They had to write fiction to try to make that point because we know who built the fucking Temple to Zeus.

>>19755002
> being in one same condition forever is terrifying.
You are implying the existence of self while also implying the death of your self.
Why would something that doesn't exist be afraid of eternally not existing?

> Hell
Is merely a motivator for people to act morally without secular morals. We cannot possibly know what is after death.

>>19752232
This world is a rigged, sadistic hell and to finally dissolve it all will be my reward for not killing myself sooner

>>19752232
read How to Die by Seneca

>>19755017
>We remember all who have made great works and will forever.

Will we, though? It's one thing to remember someone 2000 years later, it's another to remember them 100,000,000 years later.

>>19755017
But we can only look to far. You don't know the names of those people who painted Cueva de las Manos.

>>19754978
>Yes, again, only exists in present moment. The next moment, this "given" might simply no longer be that, a "given".
The thing is that I set out from point A with the certainty that I'll reach point B, though I do not wish to arrive there, even if I would not be aware when I do
>That knowledge is only present in THIS moment in time
And so am I. Death isn't a problem for anyone but the living
>once again. Simply knowing the experience in the moment, does warrant their anticipation in the future.
You have me wrong. I do not anticipate anything other than the certainty that I will cease to exist. And that is indeed a certainty that will be relevant for as long as I exist. It cannot be otherwise, since as long as I can comprehend experience I am experiencing
>Knowledge of the moon does not imply any future experience of it, hence we should not be afraid of loosing that experience
I merely meant to say that even if I did not ever see the moon again, I would be aware of my experience of it. It's not a metaphor, more of a disclaimer since I could indeed, for whatever reason, be locked up in a cell and never see the moon again. So I didn't want to say that experiencing it would be certain for as long as I live to see nights
>You could invoke it by some eidetic memory into the present moment, but it doesn't relate in any way to the future.
Past and future is relegated to existence. As long as there is the thought that a the past was once there and the future will be. I don't fear not knowing the future, but knowing that a one point even the concept of future will cease to exist
>Another reason to conclude that there isn't a reason to be afraid of death. After all, when you die, you die as a rational being and so being a rational being you can invoke all these musings we've been talking about and finally die
That isn't certain, just as you cannot stop loving someone merely because you think it. I am my animal brain. There is no guarantee that the biological part of me will relent merely because I wish it. It is the fewest people whose thoughts will hold up stoically in that moment, I believe. Just as someone might conceptualize how they will act if they were suddenly involved in a fight, but then the reality of the fight will clash with the meticulous thoughts one had in the safety outside the fight. One is suddenly swept up in the moment

>>19755037
Hardly a great work. Just "OMG SO CULTURE!"
A tribe of ox fuckers isn't worth remembering, now a tribe of scorpion fuckers. THAT'S worth remembering.

>>19755037
Ok and?

>>19752232
if youre curious enough death loses all of the scare factor, for me at least my curiosity just makes it more exciting than anything, but that could just be because im a diagnosed schizoid that that doesnt care too much one way or another what happens

>>19755037
Also they all look like left hands to me. That to me says it wasn't some mystical love tribe, but it was one single sperg who was easily amused by throwing dye with his dominant hand at his other hand to make an imprint.

>>19755045
Anon I believe we have discussed everything in your comment.

It all comes down to:
You say:
> ...just as you cannot stop loving someone merely because you think it. I am my animal brain....

I say:
>>19754978
> Well then, the whole question becomes "how do we overcome our instincts"...

So my concluding advice would be:
Just die to some ASMR nigga, like close your eyes lmao

>>19755071
>Just die to some ASMR nigga, like close your eyes lmao
I'll give it a whirl

>>19754995
>This describes to a point that you value existence over nonexistence
I do but that's a different line of reasoning than fearing nonexistence.
>What exactly do you mean by ego death?
It's pretty hard to describe because you lose your fundamental sense of personal experience but have to describe the experience itself in terms of personal subjectivity. It's also hard not to sound like a pseud because the above is inherently paradoxical.

It's a lot like depersonalization (which you may have experienced if you've ever had depression) but without the focus on "personal." (((You))) get a sense of how absurdly immense reality is and how fundamentally restricted you are in terms of understanding it (e.g. you have a brain that sees light as color but that's something the processor is adding to "reality" and not something that necessarily belongs to the thing itself). With regard to the specific discussion here you may end up with a new perspective regarding the movement of time and how even that experience is a somewhat subjective construct that we describe according to how your brain processes it.

>>19755052
Only goes to show no memory will last forever.

>>19755055
>>19755061
> somehow the fact that it might have been a single dude changes the fact that the legacy lives on without us knowing a single ounce of shit about him

> but the internet will preserve
Resources for computer memory are finite. Human memory can only take so much and it doesn't care about things which are not relevant.
I doubt people will discuss great scientist we consider to be great 100,000 years from now.

>>19752296
>>19754926
>muh legacy muh descendents
>I'm incapable of finding joy in life in and of itself, therefore I'm exactly the kind of person who should be influencing the world as much as possible, and/or inflicting my misery genes on the next generation

>>19755087
>Resources for computer memory are finite
Different anon here. Depends on future computation. And finite doesn't actually mean much if the amount is more than we could feasibly ever use
>I doubt people will discuss great scientist we consider to be great 100,000 years from now.
Hard to know with the strange times we live in and what that means going forward. If humans exist that far in the future, they may live under very, very different circumstances. Being human may mean an entirely different thing. Consider bioengineering and the like. Every human could end up being super geniuses even beyond the greatest minds we have known so far. Then virtual data could be stored for the rest, with means of accessing and processing it that would be much more efficient than humans can today. Not that it will necessarily play out like that, but even greater change is likely in store than even we have experienced in the last century

>>19755087
Great work, anon. The subject is great work.
My nephew JUST made some blue handprints and his art will not be remembered in this digital age, despite it already being in several clouds.
Great works will last for as long as a human society draws breath.

>>19755127
I see you point. Yet still, we will eventually succumb to the second law of thermodynamics and be no more. Unless we figure out how to produce pure energy to fill, if not boundless, at least an enormous amount of space. And, after all, we don't care that much about our name being remembered as much as we care for our personality. And, as I believe, our friend Aurelius said ~"People barely even know themselves, how could they ever grasp me for who I am."
We could delve into scifi and entertain the idea that the future will be populated by some hyper-humanists dedicated to investigation of every person's personality, but it is more likely they'll think about us as a set of people — just like we think about greeks or romans.
The lives of emperors sure are interesting to some, but as time marches on I think their lives will become of less relevance to the humans of the future. People would need to dedicate good part of their life to become expert at something, which means that it is more likely people will simply become more specialized, until eventually the knowledge of our time will become something esoteric. If you ever read Solaris by Lem, the part in the library where he talks about the research of Solaristics is what I am talking about. Eventually, our legacy will become irrelevant to some gaynigger stimulated by the narcotics on the ship flying many years away from earth.


>>19755150
I only choose the subject from deep past because (>>19755036) anon already mentioned the deep future.

Also,
> If the content exists, but no links point to it,
It doesn't exist in the eyes of humanity. It might as well have been a photo in your family album.

Also,
> comparing a landmark signifying the dawn of human creativity(as much as I think it to, still, be only of animalistic nature, It is peculiar nonetheless) with the work of that has little significance now that we can create art in seconds.

>>19752232
If you think about it, it’s pretty great that we are alive right now to begin with.

>>19754926
Don’t worry I won’t, but also I wasn’t advocating depression or suicide, just that legacy is not a way to make peace with death.

>>19754934
Anon someday the sun will explode. A few thousand years is nothing.

>>19754957
You’d think so but it seems like parents don’t really see their kids as “them” in that way, if all the parents that are jealous of this kids mean anything.

>>19755091
There's more than a handful of examples of miserable people who've left behind a legacy.

>>19752273
This actually works

>>19752273
this, now im just scared of reality or the apparent lack of it.

>>19752232
Nobody is afraid of death until they are in danger of it. The whole notion, derived from babbling psycho-analytics, that human action is influenced primarily by the fear of death, and that all we do may be explained in reference to this fear, is idiotic. I am more afraid of life than I am of death. I am afraid of what I will become. I am afraid of not finding happiness. That's my true fear. Death scares me as much as bears do; that is, not at all until I am faced with it.

>>19754926
How did you even come to that conclusion?

>>19752232
By watching Babylon 5.

>>19754972
I live through this specific arrangement of matter. Why shouldnt "i" be able to assume a new arrangement of matter later on? Sure I wont be me, hence I wont have lived before AS me, but whats stopping me from spawning in a new body when I die?

>>19755238
>2 more weeks

>>19752363
Sound, yet underrated advice.

>>19754972
I fancy to think that my self is the result of my memories and the experiences I have lived through. When I think of some concept certain images appear in my mind and memories that have relics of time during which they were formed. So even if you would be able to recreate me atom by atom, that body would still lack the same electricity that forms my brain activity right at this moment, because their memory simply wouldn't recall the same images of reality due to them living in a different time.

>>19752580
>Seneca

I bet that two-faced faggot wasnt so smug when praetorians came knocking to his door.

have a shitty life and you'll want it as soon as possible

>>19756766
I think there were very few men throughout the entire history of humanity who could adhere faithfully to what they've preached. Conditions change, thoughts need to be accommodated. I am not sure what causes you to hate him that much or call him two-faced, and on the available accounts we have we know he died with dignity. So chill and actually criticize his ideas(which in our case still stands firm) than a man himself.

>>19752232
read Shankara (pbuh) and attain gnosis

Its weird everyone has the same fear, that of non-existence, and mine is of the total opposite. All i can thin of is ways that awareness might persist and every one of them is ugly. I'm to the point where I hope eternity itself is what destroys me. I hope i rest in madness rather than pain. Best of all would be non-existence.

everyone fears death, what a retarded goal

>>19756933

>>19752232
I feel the same way OP, including the bursts of fear and existential dread out of nowhere. I've read stoic books of Seneca, Marcus, Epictetus but it still didn't help. There's one thing that slightly helped from my experiences though, so I'll share them.

As a teenager I would spend time on the internet late into the night because I felt like I didn't want the day to end. Something just felt insufficient about my life, I went to school, came back, played video games and browsed 4chan. I felt like I wanted more but I wasn't sure what. This habit followed me for many years until I actually started working a job I enjoyed that involved tinkering with my hobby. Ever since then, whenever I would have a productive day, I would go to sleep early feeling satisfied about how the day went. (On days where I'm not as productive or just bored out of my mind because of a lame assignment, I tend to slip away late into the night again.)
My conclusion was that maybe life is the same way. If I lead a productive life, do what I enjoy and leave some sort of achievement behind, I can close my eyes before that endless night with the same satisfaction as I do before sleep. So now my aim is to have the kind of life that will "tire me out" before I die.

It's not much frankly and I still have those fatalistic episodes occasionally, where my brain goes in a conflict between the feeling of foreboding death and my desperate instinct to live, but it feels like it gave me some hope that maybe at some point I'll overcome it.

>>19756544
> I am more afraid of life than I am of death. I am afraid of not finding happiness.
More specifically, aren't you afraid of "not finding happiness before death"? I feel like there's more merit to "human action is influenced primarily by the fear of death" than you give it due.

>>19752388
Lmao /lit/ doesn't even grasp ozymandias anymore? Fuck.

Its about uncontrollable legacy, not entropic legacy. Hence the traveler still telling the story. Hence Shelley still telling the story. Hence, anon, you still telling the story. Come on now guys, this is high school fodder.

>>19756970
>More specifically, aren't you afraid of "not finding happiness before death"?
No. If I lived eternally I would still be afraid of not finding happiness. Eternal misery is worse than temporal.

Understand that there is nothing to fear in death.
After death you cease to exist. You can only fear when you're alive.
This brings me more comfort than any afterlife ever could.

>>19757019
Shitty r/atheist tier thought.

>>19757028
I'm happy with life and at peace with death. Good enough for me.

>>19757019
>After death you cease to exist.
This is not a guarantee even by physical reductionist standards. If you see yourself as a computation in a brain, then you must wonder if that computation can run on different substrates, like a boltzmann brain in the middle of space. You may just "pick up" in the next possible brain state somewhere and that could be a very unpleasant existence.

I used to believe like you and it brought me great comfort. That's impossible now. There's things being talked about in [philosophy of mind and physics that aren't pretty and I think I'm just unlucky enough to be privy to them.

Nature has no obligation to let us off the hook.

>>19757084
In that case, I'll wait and find out, and get back to you if I can.

test

>>19757099
I'm not trying to scare anybody, honestly. Its just that shit like this raises anitnatalism from a fringe theory to a moral imperative. We thrust people into life without a satisfactory explanation of death.

"Nothingness" is dogmatic. Its no different than heaven or hell as we have exactly as much subjective detail as evidence.

>>19752232
You only have to consider death as the natural and compulsory end to any life.

>>19757146
I think that's what scares me the most. If we just extrapolate from nature's utter indifference to our suffering, it seems counter-intuitive that in death we're free from her grasp.

https://youtu.be/QOBku4gkMfY

>>19757084
Wouldn't you say that these are rather closer to theories that don't have much ground to stand on?
> Nature has no obligation to let us off the hook.
It also has no need to keep us going. Life of one has served as a relay to transmit the biological code and continue life — truly the most persistent virus. The relay, once its task is completed, dies off, falling apart back into the elements. Eventually the elements will manifest themselves in another aspect of the universe.
> You may just "pick up" in the next possible brain state somewhere
> You might just wake up with a giant needle up your ass, wouldn't that be unfortunate. Therefore, I don't think it's a good idea to have kids.

I see where you are coming from. If we imagine that all our existence serves as mere entertainment for the creators they could design all sort of sick shit.
But is this theory really enough to take anitnatalistic stance? It no better the other theories. After all, some primordial will wished for life to be. Why? Here we reach the wall of creation, the wall of absurdity, and can only allow our theories to steps further.

And wouldn't the same idea of endless suffering only incline you to live a life of most happiness while you can?

And, as well, how likely is it that you and me and everyone around us is only on the first level of this suffering? I, for example, do not remember any existence before this one I'm having right now, so even if I have suffered before that the suffering was not incremented.
You might then theorize that we are collectively put inside the first level world, but we would again find ourselves imagining all sort of what if's.

>>19757138
Nothingness, I think, comes from our concept of something being "outside": What is there outside of our world, then the world of our creators, and what's outside that? Even if it all encloses in itself, the loops have walls. Even walls, as some impervious structure, is a concept that leads us eventually to the wall of creation. Almost as if we were designed in a way as to not be able to look behind the veil.
Almost as if the primordial will would want to allow us to "leak" into the world beyond ours, at least while we are alive. It seem much more probable, then, that the entirety of present matter is locked inside and if we take a naturalistic approach to consciousness, it seem, then, that we are no more than animated puppets. Truly depressing, but also reassuring in that you should make most out of your puppet life.

>>19757405
>would want to allow us
wound't

>>19752232
I'm not. I'm terrified of my loved ones' death

>>19757399
>>19757405
Solid interpretation. I've danced around remedies and such. At this point its some burgeoning schizo problem in me, I think; I'm convinced I'm going to scientific hell. Its stemmed from antinatalism, efilism, and promortalism.

One day the idea of "you're dead and its over" just clicked as too optimistic. I've been under ten times, so I have an idea of what getting knocked cold is about. That informs my worries, that the "nothingness" is not experienced. So you start to worry that all there is IS experience.

Maybe it was some last ditch shit my brain did to me to put off suicide. Either way its a problem. I want to believe in the nothingness so badly.

Like >>19755002
said, its more the fear of eternity and the absurdity of a short existence nearby.

>>19752926
Your kek makes me kek, and tops your top kek, pounding your kek in the anus till they mutually bust.

>>19752926
Some of America's most crippling philosophical weaponry comes from rap-rock, you philistine.