/lit/ - Literature

America forgot about Egypt like 2 months ago. We solved that shit when it stopped being reported.

What the hell are you talking about? It's still going on, there's conflict between the protesters and the military thugs every day. Go on, get in there.

Arabs can't do anything right.

Their entire culture is based on incompetence.

>>1969651
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words don't hurt as much as car bombs.

Could be worse, at least you aren't Syrian.

Don't give up, the real revolution begins now in cleansing the state of all traces of the former establishment.

>>1969667
It is pissing me off that Egyptians were protecting the regime while they were bringing it down! The only thing that happened was dismantling the police, otherwise it was a regime fixation :(

>>1969659
more like
>sticks and stones may break my bones, but an Islamic theocracy won't hurt me... unless I introduce a Western mode of political process

>>1969675
Better a military dictatorship than an Islamic theocracy i guess.

>>1969680
I wish I knew what has to be done :( How did Lenin did it?

>>1969675
now Egypt will be like the north African version of Pakistan!

>Mubarak
>Musharraf
>yfw

>>1969685
The thing is: it won't! The military is using the Islamists to scare both the outside world and its own people. A fucking old tactic that the military regime has been using over and over again since the 1952 coup.

>>1969686
Lenin was the effect, not the cause.

OP, you guys are lacking a civil rights leader. That's why you feel there is no direction, because there IS no direction.

Be that leader. Fight for your right to party. Floor. Dinosaur. Do it.

>>1969686
What you need is a constitution and a parliamentary government that doesn't suck; as an American I wish I could call my own country an effective government, but instead I'll point you to somewhere in Euroland

>>1969689
So what's different? I don't think Russia was as backwards as Egypt back then (or was it?), but still its revolution gave birth to real revolutionaries?

I met the "revolutionary leaders" here and they are nothing but rich bored kids who think it would be cool to wear a scarf and go protest. They are as shallow as fuck, without any sort of vision :(

I am not happy with what I see, but at the same time I don't see a leader in me

>>1969695
The collective elects the leader by majority. Whoever is the most popular leads the charge. At least until he runs into the guy with the most firepower.

>>1969693
Revolutions don't need leaders, silly. Only counter-revolutions.
Le patron a besoin de toi, tu n'as pas besoin de lui motherfucker.

>>1969700
*only counter-revolutions need leaders

>>1969695
I'd argue that Russia today is practically just as backwards as it was in 1918. If you consider on a global scale and consider "The West" as the ideal model, then Russia is WAY behind in its economy, judicial system, and human rights standards. As far as revolutions go, Russia isn't the best model.

>>1969714
But if you compare the progress Russia made from before 1919 to the present day against a similar nation, such as Brazil or Turkey, Russia comes out very favourably. Remember, they went from a semi-feudal society to the first race in space in 3 decades or so. And this was in spite of a multi-national invasion force in the early 1920s, a devastating civil war, a worldwide depression, and WWII, where Russia took the brunt of all the fighting. Russia suffered the worst from WWII and still came out on top.
I'm neither trying to defend their totalitarian practices nor their human rights policies, but you can't say they failed at progressing.

>>1969695
>I don't think Russia was as backwards as Egypt back then

I'm just jumping to the conversation at this point without reading the rest. Yes it was. Probably even worse. It's whole economy was based on farming and gods know they weren't good at that either. Lenin and pals sure did a good job industrializing the motherland

>>1969728
>>1969730
Ok. So did the Russians back then prefer stability over anything else? The people here are favouring a totalitarian military regime because it is promising them with stability and nothing else, can you believe that? People don't mind their rights being violated as long as "everything runs the same old safe stable way"

FML

>>1969738
The Russian people didn't want that, but the Bolsheviks did.

I have this Egyptian guy in class that got really passionate everytime Egypt was mentioned and went like
>this is a sign that the people won't take it anymore and things have to change!
Followed by a complete lack of a plan on what to do after the revolution. I imagine it's the same for many Egyptians.

>>1969728
Brazil has 25% higher gdp than Russia, and Turkey has half Russia's GDP. Meanwhile, the US has 10 times Russia's GDP. I'm not trying to make a point, but I'm putting the numbers there for comparison.

Actually, comparing gdp per capita, Russia and Brazil look pretty similar. However, Brazil got there without horrific famine and subjugation of its populace.

I guess my point is that many countries with similar demographics got to where Russia is today without the horrific military dictatorships.

>>1969751
That's true. What can be done about that? Egyptians, like this guy, think that enough has been done and now it is time to see the military sort everything out. How can you deal with a population that does not want to exert mental effort to come up with a plan?

>>1969728
Brazil was an unstable democracy heading towards fascism in 1919, and right now I'd say they're more progressive stable and economically healthy than Russia. Don't know as much about Turkey but I'm not sure what good it does to compare all these anyway. Russia's not the best model, as the guy you quoted mentioned. Revolution's a rocky matter everywhere, but if you're looking at hundred-year benchmarks we can hold ourself to a higher standard. Look at Meiji Japan. Or post-revolution United States. It's never a clean process. The United States had an extremely bloody civil war in there, but they became an eminent world power anyway. Brazil was fascist and 'backwards' for a while. Russia's dissimilar because they had a grand Soviet experiment for a while which made some impressive accomplishments but ultimately collapsed around 1990. You could do way better.

>>1969759
As a Canadian, I like to pull this argument against Americans.

"Tell me again: why was it so important for you to get out of the British Empire right then? I mean, we stayed in it and turned out alright."

>>1969766
what's the intellectual establishment in Egypt look like, and is it interacting with the government? Admittedly getting the elites involved in government is exchanging one problem for another, but it's better than military rule.

>>1969775
The elites are as lost as anybody else. The thing is, everything is a wreck here, even the intellectuals and the revolutionaries.

>>1969773

argentinian here. whatever you guys are doing in Egypt, as small as it may be, keep doing it. my country is going to shit and there's no real alternative. fuck this

>>1969776
this is one of those situations where it's working out so well... until everything's fucked.

So where we're at is Egypt is governed by the military. Do they intend to establish a republic? Democracy? Do they intend to hold onto power permanently, or put a puppet legislature in place? Moreover, is the military just Mubarak 2.0, or does it actually want reform?

From my point of view, kicking out Mubarak and NOT having Suleiman take his place was a major accomplishment. But that was only the beginning. It's not like Lord of the Rings where once the Ring is destroyed, Middle Earth is safe and peace is restored. Don't be afraid of disappointment and setbacks. They will happen, but as long as you and the rest of the Egyptian people keep fighting and pressing your demands, things will move; slowly but surely they will move. But as soon as you give up and say things are hopeless, the military government has won.

>>1969759
The difference, of course, is that Brazil was a U.S. satellite and received millions of dollars in aid from the U.S., in addition to military protection and a number of other benefits. And even despite the fact that Brazil didn't suffer nearly as much in wars and confrontations as the Soviet Union, Brazil still became a dictatorship in the 60s.

>>1969791
Our military consists of a bunch of old stupid men who have been left in the hot desert for a long while. They do not know how to handle things but through brute force.

Their sole purpose is to keep the privileges they have gained over the last 60 years, and they do not know how they are going to make it. They are as lost as everybody else themselves :P

>>1969773

No, you didn't. You stayed under the rule of the same tyrannical regimes we actually had the balls to liberate ourselves from. You never fought in or won any wars because you were pussies leeching off of your Fascist nanny state "mother country," the same oppressive mother country that we severed ourselves from to establish a nation based on individual liberties and freedoms. Something we have had much longer than you.

>>1969794
I wouldn't call Brazil a "horrific" dictatorship, though. I mean, on the scale of dictatorships, it was pretty tame. Honestly, it's a testament to dictatorships not being terrible in all cases, although a democratic government would've probably been better in the long run.

>>1969786
I hear you, bro. Everyone in America is shit-tired of neo-liberal, pro-corporatist, pro-globalization policies, but nobody can get the government to stop. And when I say, "everyone" I mean everyone, conservatives, liberals and independents. The consensus around this issue is almost unique in America politics, though you'll never hear the corporate media discuss it.

OP, Egypt has a strong labor movement, no? If the government that emerges provides a successful example of an anti-neoliberal economy, that might be a real inspiration to the rest of the world.

>>1969806
>Something we have had much longer than you.
You mean, like slavery?

>>1969806
That trolling. Stop it. Also, the US never defeated Canada in a war. It's true. Look it up.

>>1969824
yeah, and sub-arctic temperatures

>>1969824
be grateful that we're giving you enough atmospheric carbon and methane to transform your barren icescape into a tropical paradise, Canada!

>>1969826

Not trolling, you fool. Some people actually take pride in what their country has to offer. Not everyone is a disaffected hipster shit like you.

Pfft, Muhammed Ali the Khedive was a more progressive ruler than the salafist rabble you have roaming the streets of Egypt today. Egypt needs an Ataturk, not a ghandi, and all they got was the pitiful excuse known as Nasser.

Burn some books, op. That will make this thread /lit/-related.

Middle east shitland is 200 years in the past.
You made your little revolution, that's good, now it will be military regime for 100 years then shitty fake democracies for 100 years. Stay mad.

>>1969700
Fuck yeah situationism.

>>1970745
>Ataturk
Faggot.

http://aeinstein.org/organizations98ce.html
http://tarnac9.wordpress.com/texts/the-coming-insurrection/

>>1970745
Ataturk?

You mean egypt needs a crazed madman who will commit genocide against the ethnic minorities?

>>1970819
fuck you armenian, that shit wasn't his fault

I saw this same thread earlier when I accidentally clicked here instead of /fit/.

Why are you asking the pure definition of an armchair revolutionist what to do in your situation. These people do nothing except read about things, they don't experience the world for themselves, they allow others to paint pictures of reality for them. They allow others to concoct swirling spheres of emotion and experience for them. They are too dull, boring, and trite to even begin to give proper advice. They are losers, non-important factors to anything significant in the physical reality.

>>1969695
>I don't see a leader in me
Here's something everyone in this thread except >>1969700 needs to figure out. Decentralized insurgencies are the only way for civilians to take on an armed and trained force. Using guerilla tactics and hitting expensive (not necessarily important, but EXPENSIVE) targets, if it comes to violence. That's why the American revolution worked, that's why al-Qaeda works, that's why Anon works. Don't be a leader. Don't let people establish you as a figurehead. This is why the Zapatistas will collapse if Marcos is ever killed. Figureheads are a weakness.

Organized forces know that people like a leader, someone they can look up to. Popular movements almost always have a figurehead, and they know they just have to cut off the head of the snake for the body to panic and kill itself.

So don't be a snake. Turn yourselves into a Hydra.

But here's what you SHOULD do. Encourage people. If there are no ideas, come up with one (I'd work with you, but I don't know enough about the situation on the ground to really recommend anything), then share it. Get people moving in a direction. If there's opposition to your plan (which there should be), talk about it. Dialog. Get people talking and thinking for themselves about what kind of place they want to live in. Then work together and make it happen.

Nothing big ever happens in one organized push. It is months of slogging, building up morale, small victories and huge losses. But eventually the people will make their voices heard.

>>1970823

Greek thanks, you also slaughtered us while burning down every city on the agean coast, of course most of us just converted to islam so we could keep our land which is why the turks in the west look so different from the turks in other areas of the country, and i wont bother mentioning the slaughter of kurds that never stopped.

And yes it was his fault.

>>1970831
To be fair, Turkey, Iraq and Iran all agreed to mutually slaughter and conquer their lands with acknowledgement with the west.

Join the intellectuals in unassailable ivory towers as proactive factions corrupt over time

>>1970838
TRUTH

greece and turkey have long been pawns in russo/euro relations which is why ive long since given up "hating" on turks who have been used euqally even though theyve been spared the massacres they inflicted on us.

Even Cyprus is hardly a source for bitterness, our half is in the EU their half is still being occupied by turkish forces opressing their own people whove long since wanted to join us but are held back by the puppetmasters in ankara

>>1970850
having just browsed through wikipedia's page on Armenian genocide (and its denial by the Turks), I can almost sympathize with the Turks. I mean, ethnic cleansing is not to be excused, but when you consider that the Turks were (justifiably?) hated by all of Christendom for the past 500 years, and the Turks were in the middle of a war TO RESIST BEING PARTITONED, it's hard to assume that an international community (composed mostly of Christian nations) wouldn't be out to get them.

On the other hand, maybe the Ottoman Empire deserved a partioning. On the OTHER hand, though, that gave Europeans a bumfuckedly-retarded cookie-cut Middle East, which is problematic to this day. We can place blame on whoever we want, but there will always be someone who did equally bad things before them, and in this case it was the Europeans who forced Balkan Muslims out in the 1800s. Balkan Muslims who moved in when the Ottomans conquered the Christians in the area in the 1600s. Christians who went on Crusades. Crusades against Muslims who "took away" the Holy Land. From Christians who killed Jews. From Jews who killed Amorites.

FUCK. FUCKING HUMANITY.

>>1970830
Situationist guy here, I'm not so sure about Marcos. He is something of a figurehead, but I get the feeling that he doesn't have much to do with the day to day operations of the Zapatistas, he's just the guy the government is focusing on. Not to belittle him, he's an amazing person from all I've seen, but the Zapatistas have a solid, decentralized framework in place that won't collapse from just one hit.
Pic related, it's Subcomandante Ramona.

>>1970936
Meh, you're probably right. It would be meaningful, but they've been living on their own long enough that they'll figure it out.

bumpan for egypt.

>>1970936
Carrying this over to Egypt, part of the original success of the Jan 25 movement was because it was a decentralized, highly popular movement. There were no leaders governing and planning what to do, it was largely spontaneous. The problems arose when the army decided to step in. My guess is the army knew that Mubarak didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, and decided to tacitly support the anti-government movement to get their anti-establishment cred and continue governing the nation as they've done for the last half century.

ITT: Sandpeople say BAAAW

My advise to OP is that he move to the Land of Opportunity before the Muslim Brotherhood takes over.

>>1971533
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=28843
>MB Not to join protests on Friday
wat