/lit/ - Literature

>>1965730

>sick of this capitalism bullshit
>give me a commodity which can aid me in fantasising about doing something about it rather than actually doing anything about it

lol

Are you anti-establishment or are you communist?

If you think there is no distinction then you've obviously never actually lived in a communist country.

>>1965734
While I have never lived in a communist country, I do not mean the failed-20th-century type of communism. Rather, I'm referring to the idea of communism, not institutional state communism.

>>1965734
He's probably underage enough to tell you that there have been no communist countries.

OP, just wait it out, you'll grow up. People who were staunch commies back in the sixties and the seventies during their uni years in my country are now good traditionally dressed mosque-goers.

Just wait it out, and try not to make an ass of yourself while waiting.

>>1965741

too late

Atlas Shrugged.

>>1965741
If by 'grow up' you mean 'learn to conform' and becoming a mindless sheep, I guess you'll have to teach me.

upton sinclair, "oil"...

or, even if the title suggests boring stuff, "the aesthetics of resistance" by peter weiss - that one's a looong read, but it pays of...

>>1965752

lol

>>1965752
jesus.

>I don't feel like reading some dense philosophical shit today
just says it all really.
I seriously hope you are trolling because you are making me mad, and i dont usually get mad on here.

>>1965752
You are a sheep, my brother. You adhere strictly to the modern Western world-view, through its communist variety. I challenge you to tell me that you've ever doubted your belief in such doctrines as democracy, egalitarianism and humanism.

>>1965752
He doesn't mean that. He means becoming a fair-minded adult who understands youthful folly.

>>1965752
Read Iron John by Robert Bly and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius.

commies make movies, not books.
Go rent Paths of Glory, its the most subtle commie film i've ever seen.

>>1965755
Tell me then, enlightened one, why this makes you mad?

Seriously, I'm not some hipster looking for an easy escapist read in order to suppress my longing for a better society. I'm just looking for something to read in between the denser, deeper and more academic stuff

>>1965758

Many times, looking at news from all over the world, I've doubted democracy. Even though I haven't been that radical in my views, just like you suggest.
But if I had, I wouldn't be here, fishing for some reading tips, now would I? So stop bitching and do some suggestions that would make me doubt my belief in democracy, humanity and egalitarianism.

>>1965734

what will it take to make middle class american teenagers appreciate the individual freedom capitalism brings?

Send them to china or cuba for a few weeks and we'll see how many friends they'll make with their open displays of pseudo-political rhetoric.

>>1965769
I said humanism, not humanity (nor humanitarianism, which you might also confuse with the bunch). I'm certain that you've had your moment, like everyone else, of doubt about whether idiots (this probably means for you people who differ with you) should be allowed to vote, but I'm quite certain that you've never doubted whether state and society should be based on the satisfaction of the desires of the masses, which is what democracy is really about, not just mere election.

If you want something that might make you question you belief in modern doctrines and dogmas, just read anything concerning politics written before the "Enlightenment". If you want something written after that, you can go well with Rene Guenon and Julius Evola.

>>1965771

The exhaust fumes of democracy.

>>1965773
That 'humanity'-thingy is a typo. I can gladly tell you that I know there is a difference.

But second, I do know that democracy is more than mere elections. At the same time, true democracy is NOT the same as the 'will of the majority'. But let's not discuss democracy in this thread.

And please, stop acting as if I'm some high-scool american middle class kid. I'm not even from the US.

>wants to talk about communism
>wow, but hey, let's not turn this into a debate about democracy & freedom

>>1965771
>>1965734
>I don't know what communism is.
No surprises that /lit/ doesn't know what communism is. Also lol at thinking China these days even falls within the realm of Maoism. You truly have zero clue.

>>1965769
Communism in the true sense is far more democratic then the any country going right now. Democracy is the road to socialism and is a pillar of the system.

>>1965795
Fuck you /lit/, I thought you could read. I'm asking for literature suggestions, not a discussion on how good capitalism/communism/your mom is.

Also, let's stop bitching about failed communist states. Because that's not what communism is about.

Anyway, now I remember why I don't come here any more.

>>1965797

China is communist is authoritarianism, capitalist in economy. A volatile combination, it won't last.

Revolution in coming there, too. Cuba & North Korea have a bit longer to wait, but their time will come.

>>1965730
Stand on Zanzibar

>>1965801
> China is communist

Wait, what? No wonder this discussion leads to nowhere. You sir, are one /lit/ard

>>1965801
If it's authoritarian what difference do the other labels make?

>ITT: People who've never experienced communism first hand

>>1965808
Well obviously, since no one has.

>>1965804

communist in it's authoritarianism, that was meant to read. there is still no political freedom for individuals there.

As Žižek likes to say, it's a capitalism with authoritarian eastern values.

Actually, maybe Žižek would be a good one for you. He's a marxist kinda.

>>1965801

Communists who believe that revolution is coming in a state like North Korea are like Christians who believe their faith grows in numbers under real persecution.

>>1965810
Fair enough. Personally i think it's pointless to label states as anything other than democratic or authoritarian, everything else is just spin.

>>1965812

i'm talking about democratic revolutions, like the ones we are experiencing now in the arab world.

Do you know that china blocked 'egypt' and 'tunisia' from the internet during the revolutions? And they arrested those figures of cultural relevance during the most turbulent time of the revolutions?

The chinese government is terrified, and so it should be.

>>1965817

Note that I'm not talking about China, I only mentioned North Korea. If you think the people there are in any sort of psychological or material condition to rebel, you're insane.

>China is communist is authoritarianism
Another tripfag who proves how retarded /lit/ can be. Read ANYTHING aside from Stalin or Mao before you comment on what you think communism is. Now go enjoy your Fox news.

>>1965810

Yes, thanks. And I am in the process of reading Zizek, namely 'First as tragedy, then as farce'. But I can't really read it non-stop. Don't know why.
Also, since you know about Zizek, you should know that he himself has lived under a state communist regime, but he is a 'new' communist. So state communism =/= idea of communism

Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"

The beginning is tough, but once it gets going, you'll never want to put it down.

>>1965730
>A man can hold land if he can just eat and pay taxes; he can do that. Yes, he can do that until his crop fails one day and he has to borrow money from the bank. But - you see, a bank or a company can't do that, because those creatures don't breathe air, don't eat side-meat. They breathe profits; they eat the interest on money. If they don't get it, they die the way you die without air, without side-meat. It is a sad thing, but it is so. It is just so.

>>1965822

if you read the next post I made I explained my words.

>>1965827

He's not a communist in the strict sense, he is extremely critical of the catastrophe of 20th century communism, which he sees as a (failed) attempt solve to a series of problems. He adopts the word communist mainly as an pessimistic affront to what he sees as the utopianism of Fukuyama capitalism.

He sees a series of problems in this (biogenetics, environmentalism, 9/11, financial crises) and his adoption of communism is merely a result of his refusal to accept that these big questions can be answered within the current liberal democratic framework.

He is certainly not convinced by any radical left alternative.

>>1965840
China is not Communist. Please stop. You have never read anything about Communism. You do not understand what it is so don't talk about it.

>>1965850

my father was a political prisoner in czechoslovakia, I don't need you to tell me how communism exhibits itself.

you're wrong anyway, i'm very interested in the political history of communism and europe.

>>1965791
>true democracy is NOT the same as the 'will of the majority'.
It's not?

>>1965857
>Soviet Union
>Communist
Why? Why do you keep posting? You do not know what Communism is. The only people who say that the Soviets were Communist are the Soviets who hid behind the term and the American's who were scared the workers would fight for a fairer society.

>>1965850
As far as I'm aware Marx never really spelled out what a true communist society would look like.

>>1965840
While I agree that he is disappointed by the current state of the so-called 'left', he remains a radical leftist. He says somewhere (can't remember where), that communism and the radical left have to reinvent themselves. Basically, I'm still waiting for that type of reinvention.
Which is why I'll read 'The Idea of Communism' next.
Check: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Idea-Communism-Slavoj-Zizek/9781844674596

>>1965862
In a true (representative) democracy, the minority has to be protected. In the same fashion, the elected leaders, representatives of the 'masses', have to do what's best for the state as a whole, not merely for their electorate.

>>1965865
The Critique of the Gotha Programme and the Communist manifesto are two that I have read. I am sure there are more.

>>1965865
As far as I'm aware, you are not aware of what Marx has written. While I cannot reference you the exact point in Marx' writings, he has definitely written about what true communism means.

>>1965857
Do you think Iran is a democracy?

>>1965876

well then why do you stick to it when it was so obviously contradictory in its formulation?

>using tautology to salvage a catastrophic ideal

are you even trying, communists?

>>1965883
Why would its formulation be contradictory?
Calling the failed communist states 'communist', that is contradictory.

The only true form of communism history has known, is the short-lived Commune in Paris (somewhere in the 19th century).

>>1965870
>true democracy

>representative democracy

Pick one. Honestly I can't believe people are still buying into this shit. Elected politicians represent their own interests, nothing more. Grow the fuck up.

>>1965894

and do you ever wonder why it was small, isolated and ephemeral?

>>1965894

my point is how can you stick to something which has been shown to fundamentally fail in every instance of it's execution?

>>1965876
>While I cannot reference you the exact point in Marx' writings, he has definitely written about what true communism means.

Well in that case, as far as I'm aware your just spouting shit.

>>1965896

Yes but their interests depend upon keeping the interests of the people

>>1965904

Which is exactly the reason I'm not 'sticking' to the old idea of communism.
Also, how can it be that the majority of the western sheep still believe in neo-liberalism and capitalism, although these, too, seem to fail time and time again?

>>1965905
Are you a retard?
>>1965872
>>1965872
>>1965872
There.

>>1965911

because they allow for individual freedom, which allows people to blow off steam without a revolution.

>>1965897
Because they were crushed militarily by bourgeoisie funded armies.

>>1965907
>>1965907
>Yes but their interests depend upon keeping the interests of the people

No they don't. Their interests depend on giving the appearance of keeping the interests of the people while shaping society for the benefit of themselves and their backers. The most insidious thing about this form of government is that it results in the politicians becoming ever more successful in subverting and distorting the will of the people.

My main problem with Communists is whenever you point out anywhere that human behavior will conflict with their philosophy the claim that said human behavior is all due to environmental pressures.

It's fucking bullshit, behavioral genetics should have put this long dead philosophy down for good.

But nope, even today we have Communists thinking global BLANDA UPP is a viable solution to end racial differences.

>>1965911
>in neo-liberalism and capitalism, although these, too, seem to fail time and time again?

The boom and bust cycle of free market capitalism are just tiny bumps in the road compared to the numerous potholes of any socialist solution to economic activity.

>>1965944
Do you seriously think that 'boom & bust' are the only problems of capitalism? How about environmental degradation? Inequality? Neo-colonialism and extortion of third world countries? Overall increase of mental illness?

>>1965940
Well, recent findings in neuroscience claim that humans are naturally capable of empathy, of connectedness with the other.
Please, the idea that humans are always at all times following selfish has been refuted time and time again.

Also, the idea of 'consumer sovereignty' and 'freedom of choice' are THE greatest myths 20th century economists have created.

>>1965940
>>1965940
>/new/sman detected

>>1965979
>recent findings in neuroscience claim that humans are naturally capable of empathy, of connectedness with the other.

But neuroscience has also shown that empathy is normally distributed, thus there are a significant minority that have little or no empathy for other. Studies have shown that these people with little or no empathy are highly represented among criminals and chief executives. These people will exist in all societies, the problem with the idea of communism is it ignores their existence.

>>1966000

Pol Pot understood, but there are always sellouts.

>>1966017
True, but my point is communism is set up to allow them (with no empathy) to gain control and make life miserable for the the rest.

>>1965979
>Please, the idea that humans are always at all times following selfish has been refuted time and time again.

Of course people don't act act selfish at all times. They don't need to to refute your retarded ideas, being selfish some of the time is enough.

>>1966055
it's largely inconsequential, since most political systems promise the best prosperity and therefore speak to the ego

>>1965734
>implying the shitholes in the 20th century were communist

damn reactionaries have gotten stupid over the years

I'm reading the coming insurrection by the invisible committee. It's not fiction, but it explains some theory on anarchism and anti consumerism pretty well. It also describes the struggles in France and Greece and how they relate to the upcoming "insurrection". I recommend it.

If you want fiction, try The Jungle by Sinclair. Not explicitly communist, but very pro-worker, pro-immigrant and anti-capitalist

i'm a Herpdurpian. Basically, its not a true herpdurp state unless Marx himself bends his ass off a cloud and spreads his cheeks, shitting violin concerto's and ferrari's all over the proletariate. We try to induce the astral Marx to do this by cutting off your balls. it is not truly a herpderp state and you can't blame the herpderp ideology for all the brutality involved in trying to get the celestial marx to shit violin concerto's on us.

Brave New World

OP, please read this book.

>You see, what we're after is to remind ourselves that we didn't come to Anarres for safety, but for freedom. If we must all agree, all work together, we're no better than a machine. If an individual can't work in solidarity with his fellows, it's his duty to work alone. His duty and his right. We have been denying people that right. We've been saying, more and more often, you must work with the others, you must accept the rule of the majority. But any rule is tyranny. The duty of the individual is to accept no rule, to be the initiator of his own acts, to be responsible. Only if he does so will the society live, and change, and adapt, and survive. We are not subjects of a State founded upon law, but members of a society formed upon revolution. Revolution is our obligation : our hope of evolution.

>>1966153


True Herpdurpia is not achieved without robot butlers, even with marx shitting violin concertos. This person is not a true herdurpian.

The Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cuba, Vietnam etc. never claimed to be the communist stage. They all claimed to be in a transitional phase from capitalism to communism known as the dictatorship of the proletariat, characterized by a vanguard party to protect the revolution from counter revolutionaries. The workers were not in control of any economic or political power, ergo it wasn't socialist at all, it was state capitalism.

True communism is a stateless, classless society in which the people control the means of production and rule themselves.


All u niggas mad

>>1966174
How callous you are to the enslavement our metallic brothers! A true Hurpdurpian would never think such a thing! You must be imperialist double agent!

>>1966196

>True communism