/lit/ - Literature

off topic

>>/his/

the Bible: is a work of literature
this thread: is not for factional disputes

>>19652108
the Bible: is a work of literature
this thread: is not for factional disputes

>>19652096
I read Genesis 1 and 2 earlier today, read some of Mark last week. I read in it daily in varying places. I've been sick with likely the coof the last few days so haven't read a lot.

I read a bit of revelations yesterday. Incredible stuff truly

>>19652144
>Incredible stuff truly
Cutting edge analysis. Truly.

>>19652147
I read a little bit of it. Don't have much to say. Feels very powerful though. I find that with the Bible, my mood always improves when I read it. Somehow I start feeling contented, at peace, happy, strong to face the world. I don't know why that happens.

>>19652152
You're underage, that's why.

>>19652108
>>19652147
dost thou trollest? begone if thou shalt be sour

Assuredly: we have a troll in the thread! Brethren, do give him a single (You), lest he plague us any more!

>>19652157
I turned 22 last month

>>19652152
>I find that with the Bible, my mood always improves when I read it. Somehow I start feeling contented, at peace, happy, strong to face the world. I don't know why that happens.
It's amazing how that happens! I really don't know how or even why! Even an equivalent time spent at prayer does not have the same effect.

>>19652152
Blessed and based. Yes, Revelation is inexpressibly spectacular.

Been thinking about this Bible for some English-to-Japanese translation work, since it's the 2018 revision of the Bible that 80% of Japan uses and but it's not online so I'd need to get a physical copy to properly do said work. Should I get A5-size or B6-size? Most of my Bibles are 6" x 8.25", so I'm leaning toward A5.

>>19652152
I read Revelation stoned once. Changed my life.

> And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
>And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
So which one is it?

Read Hosea today
Dunno, I always find the text hilarious
On an unrelated note, I feel like I've been enflamed for the last two months or so and am interested in maybe doing some work for a mission during the summer
Are there any good organised missions that take in worthless rooks regardless of denomination but which actually seek to spread the Word?
>>19652179
What kind of denominations are most popular in Japan?
I imagine evangelicals but that could mean just about anything

>>19653115
>What kind of denominations are most popular in Japan?
Between Catholics and Protestants, it's basically a 50:50 split, with about 500,000 Catholics and 500,000 Protestants, followed by about 40,000 Orthodox. If you want to know, there are also 130,000 Mormons and somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 JWs. It's difficult to determine the largest Protestant denomination, as at least 200,000 of that 500,000 are clustered under the "United Church of Christ in Japan" umbrella, which represents 33 Protestant denominations and is called the "largest Protestant denomination" despite being 33-in-1; it's also worth noting that the UCCJ allows for woman priests, and gays and lesbians to be "married" and to be priests, so take that for what it's worth to say it's probably not evangelicals. Based on that, it can be assumed that at least a sizeable portion of that remaining 300,000 (though apparently fewer than 200,000) would be classed as evangelicals.

It's clear that evangelicals are a force, because they have their own Bible separate from the one I posted (which, at least as of 2005, its predecessor was used in 70% of churches and by 80% of individual Christians), which is the second most used in the country (so, apparently about 20% between its current 2017 version and past versions), called the New Japanese Bible (or literally known as the New Revised Bible). If your browser can translate, here's a comparison article between the two Bibles that you might find interesting:
https://yeshua.hatenablog.com/entry/2019/04/10/110929

>>19652096
The classic start of Eccleasiastes
>Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

>>19652096
Does hebrew take long to learn
Kinda wanna go original with it and greek

>>19653881
Probably.

>>19652152
Based

I finished the Pentateuch and haven't started Joshua yet. Give me motivation or I'll start Chaucer next.

>>19654750
Read some of the NT brah. Try Acts or Revelation. They're fun reading.

>>19654750
Judges is going to have the most fucked up scene thus far.

>>19654750
>Hebrews
>Non-Pauline
The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible disagrees.

>>19652179
Truly the Anime Bible.

>>19653881
You should learn Aramaic and Koine Greek instead.

>No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
I deleted the pixiv account I was using for porn yesterday. Thank you for providing the way out, Lord.

>>19655878
I pretended to be Japanese and uploaded porn I drew for 3 months to pixiv, even thinking that one day I could set up a Patreon and start making that NSFW money, and then one day I just stopped. I felt miserable and could feel in my soul that I had to stop because I became disgusted with myself, so I did. Haven't drawn porn since, and interestingly never watched porn again, and that was 2 years ago. Ironically, creating porn for those 3 months killed any and all interest in porn, period.

>>19654750
Read Luke.

Christianity is for faggotroons.

Today's poem of the day is a psalm translation by Milton
>>19656774

>>19652152
same, feels good, fren. i read a few passages every morning.

>>19657213
Nice

>>19652126
Read some of 1 Peter last night, the coof is bad. If anything happens let it be known that my final act was to make up a song in my head that goes
>muh Kaaaaaay Jaaaaaay Beeeeeee
>un i ron i cleeeeeeeeee
We are strangers and sojourners in this wicked word. Do not be conformed to it but rather be ye transformed by the renewal of the mind.

>>19652179
Why?

>>19660263
Going to translate something to Japanese and it includes Bible verses, so I might as well use the most up-to-date version of their most popular Bible for that.

>>19655878
Funny how I found this post as I was experiencing temptation. Shan't be cooming now at least.

Best English Bible for style, as opposed to study? Is it really the KJV?

>>19652096
How do I study Biblical Greek?

>>19661263
Just get a reader's edition of the GNT and watch lectures.

>>19660263
Why not?

Thoughts on NKJV?

>>19662978
no

>>19662978
Thomas Nelson's scheme to copyright the public domain King James with minimal effort.

>He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD.

Best english translation for purely literary reasons?
I've read a lot of RSV-CE, and looked at certain passages in KJV and Douey-Rhiems.
I don't care if your suggestion is a for-profit & copyrighted translation, or one with lots of inaccuracy.

Has anyone read it in latin, hebrew, aramaic, or greek? I bet its better

This is a post for people like me who are interested in serious, scholarly faithful Scripture study but don't have the scholarship background for learning Koine Greek.

You'll want multiple translations. Ideally, for the OT, one from the LXX, a free rendition of the MT, and multiple modern critical editions combining readings from MT/LXX/Peshitta/Aramaic and Syriac Targums etc. Unfortunately these are primarily MT based - you can decide if that's valid or not. Currently, there is no good English rendition of the LXX without serious problems (including MT-based revisions like OSB OT and NETS). LES is also unreliable. Unfortunately you'll have to, for now, avoid an English translation of the LXX. This might change within the next 10-20 years. For the MT, get Alter, without question. Modern crit. texts - ideally, Harper NRSV-UE (forthcoming), NABRE, and OUP REB (for dynamic). You'll need a Vulgate (pre-NV) translation as well - only good one is Knox. Barionus edition has multiple typos but it's easiest to find.

For the NT. The textual tradition is vast and complicated. Basically, Alexandrian, Byzantine, and Western text traditions have solid claims to validity. All scholar editions are eclectic anyway. You'll want multiple renditions of the Koine in both literal and dynamic, and from differing schools. I recommend Sarah Ruden's recent translation, Ann Nyland's VERY scholarly translation (has fantastic notes), and a NKJV NT to represent RT tradition (EOB NT is not reliable). Supplement ofc w/ NABRE/NRSV-UE, REB and Knox.

When I see all the dancers on TV my heart is completely destroyed by lust. How do I defeat the overwhelming power of pussy?

>>19665818
>Unfortunately you'll have to, for now, avoid an English translation of the LXX. This might change within the next 10-20 years.
I recently contacted Newrome Press and they confirmed that their Illuminated LXX is still in production (the last public word about it was in September 2020), but they said it's still a long ways off due to the scale of the project.
>NRSV-UE (forthcoming)
It's actually out now, but only digitally.
>Knox . . . Barionus edition has multiple typos but it's easiest to find.
Is there a list of these typos? If so, I'll take my pen and start correcting myself. I'm only aware of some typos in the footnotes.
>EOB NT is not reliable
Why not?

>>19665818
Additionally, you'll want serious, non-evangelical commentaries with detailed notes on Hebrew/Koine exposition. A study bible alone (or multiple study bibles), even good ones like Harper/Oxford/NABRE do not have enough textual notes to get a full idea of the text. Multi-volume commentaries can run into the 5-10k USD range per set for the good ones like CSSS, Anchor/Yale, Sacra Pagina, etc. For that reason I am sticking to one-volume commentaries. You'll want multiple.

1. The Oxford Commentary. text is *highly* HC focused but if you're at all interested in manuscript tradition, you'll want this. Weak on textual notes themselves.
2. Harper Revised. Haven't read much of but it's a more faithful perspective. Not line-by-line.
3. New Jerome. If you buy one, get this. the standard of 1 volume commentary scholarship. faithful yet scholarly, *line by line* for the ENTIRE OT/NT with vast textual notes. has *many* fantastic supporting essays. easily outlines tough issues like matthew exception clause. 3rd edition is coming out 2022, will be completely different with all new editors and completely revised notes focused more on "social justice". stick w/ 2nd for now.
4. International (collegeville press). Scholarly, pastoral, very faithful. provides multiple levels of analysis for each paragraph. worth the $100 investment.
5. New Catholic commentary on sacred scripture. worth the search to find. has *insanely* impressive textual notes, very faithful, heavily incorporates commentary for west/east fathers. line by line, sometimes word by word (!) commentary.
generally avoid evangelical commentaries - they general avoid textual problems, are heavily reductive and interpretive, and have a strong apologetic evangelical bent. sadly most current bible scholarship outside of Rome/Jerusalem is from evangelicals or talmudic liberals at yale/oxford etc. there is a distinct lack of EO scholarship especially, at least modern scholarship.

with these resources you will successfully get as close as possible to understanding the hebrew/koine, and probably closer than you would independently as youll have 100s of scholars collected textual knowledge, all for about $300 USD. this is a lifetimes worth of study and lectio divina material.

let me know if anyone has any other things to add.

>>19665883
It's really old, but if anyone can find a copy of the A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture by Bernard Orchard, it's one of the strongest ever written. Faithful, of course. As for a Greek NT, I'd be glad to shill the Tyndale House GNT as a quality alternative to the NA28, especially with the NA29 apparently forthcoming in the next 5 years. IVP's Bible Background Commentary volumes (one for the OT and one for the NT) are also worthwhile.

>>19665867
>LXX
At this point I doubt I will see a non MT based, scholarly, critical edition of the LXX in my lifetime. doesn't seem to be much demand for pure LXX translation. no idea why EO are ok using KJV based OTs but they don't seem to care.
>NRSV-UE
i did see the app but i'm waiting for an edition via Harper. apparently there's a lot more changes than they advertised (primarily further gender neutral revisions) and id like to see commentary included. honestly i have come to truly like the NABRE better and there's a new edition coming out by 24 I think anyway.
>Knox
I donated my copy so I don't remember exactly. I had a few problems in proverbs if i remember. notes and stuff were badly formatted, in pauline letters there were incorrect verse references, missing sentences, etc. it was rough. text itself was fine though.
>EOB
they used a single manuscript of the 1912 PT. textual notes are not extensive and fails basic translation issues like gynika in matt. 5. good devotional reading maybe though. has a good introduction on history of byzantine tradition. david bentley hart's translation is a total joke. he did use byzantine texts. sadly we're still waiting for a decent byzantine modern NT.

>>19665926
>A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture
a post-DAS, pre V2 commentary on the vulgate based off of knox. damn! didn't even know that existed. sounds epicly impressive. not sure i can justify dropping $400 for an acceptable copy, lol. wonder if any theological libraries near me have it.
>IVP's Bible Background Commentary volumes
haven't heard of these, bookmarked. thanks.

>>19665883
additionally, I will share things I DON'T recommend.
-esv. niv. csb. nlt. (strong bias in NT translation)
-rsv2ce (including ignatius). this is a hot take. the 2ce translation is not transparent with changes, doesn't explain translation philosophy, eliminates notes, and is continually quietly revised like the esv. ignatius commentaries are very orthodox (nothing wrong with that) but they smooth out a lot of the theological/textual bumps naturally in the text. exclusively presents magisterium perspective. ascension press/WOF/ignatius are a bit too flashly and self-focused for my taste.
-navarre. has a lot of pros but is *heavily* influenced by Josemaria Escriva commentary. also uses RSV translation. not worth the price.
-new collegeville and paulist 1 volume commentaries. not scholarly enough.
-"study" bibles like Didache/catholic study bible/little rock/great adventure/word on fire. heavily reductivist. didache especially cuts out almost all textual notes (!) for CCC passages. fine for evangelizing but not scholarship.
-haydock. highly outdated.
-rsv. dr. kjv. lack of modern scholarship.
-old literal NT translations like Young's and Wuest. outdated w/r/t koine scholarship.

>>19666065
also i am indifferent about NT literal koine translations like Lattimore, Gaus, and NT Wright. doesn't seem to be anything special there with regard to wording. all 3 stay pretty conservative, and gaus wasn't a koine scholar.
lattimore is expert more in attic, wright is theologian primarily.

bentley hart's translation could have been awesome but his universalism infects the entire text (age of ages? seriously). also, lacks consistency in basic koine terms and he uses some seriously odd vocab choices in places yet remains oddly very conservative in others.

>>19666093
Lattimore, all things considered, is a lightly tweaked RSV.

>>19666101
agree. there's also some other literal rarities like Polygot but at that point just get stick with the commentaries and take the leap to koine.

Help me, I swear, I need help against the succubi

>>19666126
The Polygot sounded good, until you realize it doesn't have the deuterocanonical books. Not a big deal to some, but a self-proclaimed LXX translation that's missing part of the LXX just seems bizarre, and just seems to undercut the very audience that would want it. But the author was firmly committed to only using the books in his King James, so that's what we ended up with.
And as for DBH, yeah, that was something with incredible potential (a NT rendered in comparably colloquial English to the type of Greek it was originally understood in), but the author's baggage spoiled the end result.

>>19666162
>protestant version of LXX
classic. why there is no interest from catholic universities in this sort of work is beyond me. instead we are stuck with literalist baptist bible colleges doing the heavy lifting.

>>19666202
You and me both. It seems everyone's content to use the NETS (which, from me looking up one Psalm translation, I know is a poisoned translation), or the LETS (which is imperfect and the general editor has admitted as much, while also acknowledging a future revision is inevitable). The Newrome Illuminated LXX is apparently using that future-corrected LETS as its text, but again, it being an Illuminated Bible means it's years away. If I can get the money together and go to Ignatius or Catholic University of America with my book proposals, an LXX, either on its own or annotated with commentary (either classical via Church Fathers or modern critical) would definitely be on my list. That said, my first priority for a proposal is still going to be the first true reprint of the 1582-1610 DR annotations in, like, 250 years, transliterated into modern spelling and commented on by a Catholic historian and/or a Catholic theologian, because that's a pet project of mine.

>>19665853
throw your TV out the window. alternatively put your eyes out.

>>19665883
>serious
>non-evangelical

>>19666258
those DR 1582 notes are awesome. directly apologetic, clear minded, and easy to read.

>>19666543
That's part of my reasoning, but the other is purely historical. Those are the clearest, most authentically contemporary feelings of the Counter-Reformation Church, and they are an important window into the mindset of the Church within the century of Luther. The fact that they've largely been lost to time is criminal.

>>19665676
The Douay and KJ for classical purposes, the Knox as another good option. For me, I really like the RSV and the Knox for the cadence.

Where can I buy a high-quality Bible that I can pass down?

>>19666397
I actually would be open to a single volume evangelical commentary that isn't just surface level, just for the sake of comparison. especially for NT. any suggestions?

>>19654791
What one? The one involving the nail?

But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh.

And he brought the present unto Eglon king of Moab: and Eglon was a very fat man.

And when he had made an end to offer the present, he sent away the people that bare the present.

But he himself turned again from the quarries that were by Gilgal, and said, I have a secret errand unto thee, O king: who said, Keep silence. And all that stood by him went out from him.

And Ehud came unto him; and he was sitting in a summer parlour, which he had for himself alone. And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee. And he arose out of his seat.

And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly:

And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out.

Then Ehud went forth through the porch, and shut the doors of the parlour upon him, and locked them.

>>19667494
I was thinking Judges 19 where the whole town rapes that woman all through the night.

>>19667445
Maybe anon is saying that serious and non-evangelical is redundant.

>>19667422
Unless you buy a KJV "presentation" edition you will probably be passing down a translation which becomes outdated within a generation or so. Textual research is still steadily advancing in Biblical Studies and even translations which were excellent just 50 years ago (like the RSV) are recognized to have some issues today. A leather bound KJV is a good "heritage" copy though as it will certainly always be read for poetic reasons.

>>19667422
If Protestant or non-Christian, high-end KJV. If Catholic, custom rebound Douay or Knox. Go for goatskin if going custom.

>>19667578
I was really looking for a specific bible or company that does a good job making them. I am protestant btw

>>19667585
CBP makes a good KJV. An Allan Longprimer KJV is always an option, too, though that's getting pricey.

>>19652096
Just started reading the New Testament, got through the first three gospels. Do I really have to read John? I think I get the point.

>>19667616
Yes, because John is the only non-Synoptic Gospel.

>>19661262
It's the KJV. I think the book Pen of Iron makes a decent case for why the way it's written and its beauty has had a lasting impact on culture, using examples of well-known past authors.
read psalm 2 out loud to yourself as one example:

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

>>19667683
I like the olden style righting. But not too olden style. KJV is distinct but not uncomfortable. Beowulf gives my head an ache.

>>19666381
I don't watch it but there are people who do that I see often. There are succubi outside too. Women now all work out and dress skimpy.

>>19667835
Go to a monastery.

>>19661262
KJV by a mile. It's not just thee and thou, the language in general is much more poetic than newer versions.

https://youtu.be/h6VYuqv_NR4

>>19667862
I've read an opinion before that English translations made by a committee can move towards sounding mushy and mealy in the mouth, compared to ones where most of the effort was by one main leading translator who established the style (for KJV, it was Tyndale)

Anyone read the Oxford Study Bible. I'm confused about what these numberings mean in the footnotes.
Xn

>Want to read Bible in German
>There are roughly 20 translations available

>>19668958
>Luther's German Bible and its widespread circulation facilitated the emergence of a standard, modern German language for the German-speaking people throughout the Holy Roman Empire, an empire extending through and beyond present-day Germany. It is also considered a landmark in German literature, with Luther's vernacular style often praised by modern German sources for the forceful vigor ("kraftvolles Deutsch")[22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30] with which he translated the Holy Scripture.

>A large part of Luther's significance was his influence on the emergence of the German language and national identity. This stemmed predominantly from his translation of the Bible into the vernacular, which was potentially as revolutionary as canon law and the burning of the papal bull.[31] Luther's goal was to equip every German-speaking Christian with the ability to hear the Word of God, and his completing his translation of the Old and New Testaments from Hebrew and Greek into the vernacular by 1534 was one of the most significant acts of the Reformation.[32] Although Luther was not the first to attempt such a translation, his was superior to all its predecessors. Previous translations had contained poor German, and had been from the Vulgate Latin translation, i.e. translations of a translation rather than a direct translation into German from the originals.[31] Luther sought to translate as closely to the original text as possible, but at the same time his translation was guided by how people spoke in the home, on the street, and in the marketplace.[31] Luther's faithfulness to the language spoken by the common people was to produce a work which they could relate to.[33] This led later German writers such as Goethe and Nietzsche to praise Luther's Bible.[34] Moreover, the fact that the vernacular Bible was printed also enabled it to spread rapidly and be read by all. Hans Lufft, the Bible printer in Wittenberg, printed over one hundred thousand copies between 1534 and 1574, which went on to be read by millions.[35] Luther's vernacular Bible was present in virtually every German-speaking Protestant's home, and there can be no doubts regarding the Biblical knowledge attained by the German common masses.[36] Luther even had large-print Bibles made for those who had failing eyesight.[34]

>>19669002
>The spread of Luther's Bible translation had implications for the German language. The German language had developed into so many dialects that German speakers from different regions could barely understand each other. This led Luther to conclude that “I have so far read no book or letter in which the German language is properly handled. Nobody seems to care sufficiently for it; and every preacher thinks he has a right to change it at pleasure and to invent new terms."[38] Scholars preferred to write in the Latin which they all understood. Luther's Bible translation, based primarily on his native Saxon dialect[39] and enriched with the vocabulary of German poets and chroniclers, led to a standardized German language.[38] For this accomplishment, a contemporary of Luther's, Erasmus Alberus, labeled him the German Cicero, as he reformed not only religion but the German language also. Luther's Bible has been hailed as the first German 'classic', comparable to the English King James Version of the Bible. German-speaking Protestant writers and poets such as Klopstock, Herder and Lessing owe stylistic qualities to Luther's vernacular Bible.[40] Luther adapted words to the capacity of the German public and through the pervasiveness of his German Bible created and spread the modern German language.[40]

>Luther's vernacular Bible also had a role in the creation of a German national identity. Because it penetrated every German-speaking Protestant home, the language of his translation became part of a German national heritage.[41] Luther's program of exposure to the words of the Bible was extended into every sphere of daily life and work, illuminating moral considerations for Germans. It gradually became infused into the blood of the whole nation and occupied a permanent space in a German history.[41] The popularity and influence of his translation gave Luther confidence to act as a spokesperson of a nation and as the leader of an anti-Roman movement throughout Germany.[42] It made it possible for him to be a prophet of a new German national identity[43] and helped form the spirit of a new epoch in German history.[44]

>>19653881
It does. I've finished my first semester of Hebrew and we're only just doing short phrases.

>>19652096
what do you guys think is the point behind the story of Jacob working for Laban and getting tricked by him to marry Leah instead of Rachel, and then working for free another seven years to get Rachel??

Has anyone gotten the NRSV updated edition? It was released on Christmas only through some stupid microtransaction app

>>19665883
>serious, non-evangelical commentaries
Shooting yourself in the foot there since evangelicals are the highest and best producers of serious commentaries

>>19669467
They're planning on publishing paper copies in May, I think, though that's probably dependent on how well it sells through their "app" first.

>>19668930
See the previous notes for verses 3.8, 11.1-13.6, 12.24-27, and 4.22.

>>19669467
You would probably do better to ask on /lgbt/

>>19669467
No, but Marc of Catholic Bible Talk got it for review purposes. You can probably email him (marc@catholicbibletalk.com) any questions you have about it if they aren't answered in the sampler:
https://friendshippress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/07092021_frp-nrsvuearc-sampler-web.pdf

>>19669908
>Word on Fire will print the NRSV-UE
I really, REALLY hope they wait until the OT volumes to do that. I've got Vol. 1, which uses the NRSV-CE, and Vol. 2 comes out in less than 3 weeks, and presumably that also uses the NRSV-CE, unless they got the text in advance and will be the first publisher to physically print a portion of the UE. WOF is the only way I ever intend to purchase the NRSV translation and I'd rather not have Vol. 1 be the odd one out and have to replace it if they reissue it with the UE text. If the divide is between the NT and OT, that's less annoying.

>>19670373
Behold, so much confusion being sown. God's word is the KJV, simple as.

>>19670922
>God's word is the KJV, simple as.
Which KJV? The 1611 one? Or the quiet revisions of that one done into the 1630s? Or the one done in the 1700s to update spelling? Or the ones Thomas Nelson has done over the 20th century?

>>19667616
john is the most important

>>19671096
Yes

>>19668958
Either stick with Elberfelder or Luther's. Elberfelder is the most closest to the original wording.

Bible is pure only in absolute original aramaic, hebrew, and greek.
Just use several translations to compare and synthesize meaning.
Now stop bickering.

>>19669483
what is a serious, evangelical, single volume commentary? by serious I mean line by line textual criticism, including exposition of the original languages, incorporation of the histrio-critical method, detailed notes on alternative, cross-denominal interpretations, and a serious history of the social, historical, and religious context of each passage. name one of these published by an evangelical without incorporating calvinistic theological underpinnings in each commentary.

>>19671954
>incorporation of the histrio-critical method
Daily reminder that "textual criticism" is not now nor has ever been a science.

>>19667616
Saint John is the last gospel and the one that reveals the most important mysteries about Christ.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

>>19671954
Faggot

>>19672152
you're right, let's just translate from the original, single-source, hand-written copies of the gospels! oh wait....

>>19652096

>>19672437
>cannot be refuted

>>19672432
That's not a rebuttal to "textual criticism" being unscientific and untestable.

>>19669401
Honestly that part was weird to me too. Just finished reading that part and I'm trying to think of the why

>>19672481
all the other alternatives to textual criticism are worse. you have to find the best, oldest, most likely to be authentic readings. there are multiple criteria applied to literature of all the ancient world for 100s of years to determine this. for example, the accuracy of the masoretic text, which itself was a product of textual criticism in AD 1000, was later surprisingly reaffirmed through archeological discoveries at Qumran. basically textual criticism gets a bad rap but the alternative is translating from single document sources complied through an ancient game of telephone. if you use multiple translations and lexicons and commentaries when reading a passage of a text, you are *yourself* engaging in textual criticism. it is both a science and an art and it gets a bad rap from fundamentalist who don't realize the history of how Erasmus complied the RT or how the KJV translators created an eclectic proof text from multiple sources and manuscripts to translate from. read the original KJV translation preface where they ironically caution against the reading of any textual intrepration as definite.

>>19672796
>it is both a science
No, it isn't a science. This is misleading and has been refitted in testings before. You can believe "textual criticism" is useful, but to call it a science of any kind is laughably false.
t. a physicist

>>19671954
Expositor's (abridged)
New international
Baker

>>19672877
>ackshully "science" must use le scientific method!
read kuhn and feyerabend

Bros I've defeated my first succubus today. Ever since I adopted this resolution she doubled down on the perverted imagery, bringing her worst, dirtiest repertoire into my mind. It was extremely hard — no pun intended — but I managed to break free of the Hellthot's demonic clutches.
Seriously though the best and probably only way to win is to keep yourself busy with some kind of work.

>>19673620
Nevermind. I'm not gonna make it bros.

>>19665818
Can someone explain the MT-based pros and cons? Why do Anglos love it? Is it really necessary? The Church did fine without it for plenty of time.

>>19675597
basically the thought is that since the MT is in Hebrew, it's closer to the original than a translation like the LXX, even in the LXX is 1200 years older than the MT. Even more troubling is that the Talmudic rabbis seriously purposefully screwed with some of the "prophetic" verses in the OT to blur relation to Jesus (see all of Isiah). Even more funny is the lots of readings from the DSS agree with the LXX and not the MT.

Basically until the discovery of the DSS is was assumed the MT was most accurate, now we're learning in fact the LXX readings match the most ancient archeological documents. Sadly it has become a "catholics and orthos use the LXX, therefore we must use the MT" issue for evangelicals, remember, evangelicals are extremely overrepresented in Bible scholarship, commentary and translation.

>>19675920
Additionally since many Ortho churchs are use Koine in the liturgy to this day, or Church Slavonic, or Coptic, there's not much motivation to translate to English and there's not a huge market for it specifically. Hopefully that is changing.

>>19652096
>>19675353
what if I told you I know that was probably, no almost certainly the main reason religion leaders before the 1900s were but that i found some sort of spiritual believe in either the divinity of materialistic universe that I call God.
Am I still an idiot? Just an idiot with extra steps?
It feels kinda bad people will call me or feel that I'm weak because I want and have some sort of ill defined spiritual believe because that's how I used to and in a way still believe. But having this believes has made me happier and I think also made me a better person so I don't care nearly as much as you would think.
It's like a cycle I feel bad about my weakness, take solace in my found peace and that's what's left until I think of it again.

>>19675920
This video is interesting, because it shows WLC, someone who prots and even many Catholics respect, completely blind to the possibility that the LXX could have more accurate genealogies than the MT, while revealing that, despite his claims to have read countless commentaries, he seemingly never read Josephus or Eusebius, who both favored the LXX genealogies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyDci18Ds9g

>>19675920
Fascinating

>>19674552
Lol

>>19675920
Is the JB trustable? I got one and just saw it's highly MT based.

jesus was non dual
god is metaphor for the whole world

>>19677583
The JB is less MT than most actually.

>>19677723
Ooh, nice
Is Isaiah safely original in it?

>>19677753
>7:14 The Lord himself, therefore, will give you a sign. It is this: the maiden is with child and will soon give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel.
And if Luke is a sticking point with you too:
>1:28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, so highly favoured! The Lord is with you.’
Feel free to browse:
https://morningstarinfosys.com/

Does anyone have any good works to understand atonement theology? I think I (somewhat) grasp what the incarnation did after reading various sources, especially Athanasius’ work on the incarnation, but I’ve got to be honest what exactly Christ’s death on the cross does or what it changes still filters me. The common explanation is that He died for our sins and bore them, and that we are reconciled to God through this, but I don’t understand exactly *how*. I know it’s somewhat connected to stuff like the animal sacrifices in the OT

t. Christian newfren

>>19678294
I've been meaning to read William lane Craig's book where he evaluated the theories in depth and generally says they all have value but penal substitution is essential

>>19678393
I’ve been leaning towards some variety of penal substitution myself. I don’t get why the Orthodox don’t like it. They seem to say it’s ‘legalistic’ or something, but really, to me, some variety of it makes the most sense in my eyes (not to say that the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection can’t simultaneously have a much wider purpose, which it does)

>>19678393
>>19678393
>>19678488
Anselm’s satisfaction theory or bust

>>19678294
>>19678393
Basically there is no right answer. Protestant modern atonement theory (which is dominant in the west today outside of Catholicism) essentially sees God as "needing justice" for the offense of sin. Since God is infinite, the logic goes, only the sacrifice of something of infinite worth could satisfy an offense against an infinite being. therefore only Christ is able, due to his human nature, to "satisfy" God's demand for justice for sin.

keep in mind that is a HIGHLY controversial interpretation and is heavily focused on calvinistic/augustinian "eternal depravity" w/r/t to humanity. the oldest christian theory is the Christus Victor theory which states that Christ, in becoming man and being God, broke the bonds of death over humanity by coming back from the dead. God's entry into human nature literally changes human nature (divinization) ("God became man so man could become Divine) by introducing eternal life into it. this is essentially a sacramental mystical theory and is classically held by the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

there is also "victim theory" in that God, in becoming man, allowed himself to experience the fullness of humanity, including abandonment OF HIMSELF and death (Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthanei). Rene girard is the dude to read to fully comprehend the meaning of this. basically he says that Christ's death is the end of "myth" and the beginning of reality through breaking the original cycle of violence.

>>19678549
holy kino, amazing

>>19678549
Don't forget ransom

>>19678549
There's also the satisfaction theory which states that Christ is the New Adam because he was perfectly obedient to the Father and thus restored humanity to the New Eden. Aka just as sin came through one man, so did redemption come through one man as well. Paul was based as fuck

Every atonement theory is basically right in some way. When we fell into the state of sin, corruption and death, there was an infinite gap between us and God, essentially. This was contrary to God’s purpose, and the sentence was just as well, and could not be satisfied by humans. So the Father sent the Son, and the Son assumed human nature and united His divinity and humanity within one person, recapitulating and redeeming every stage of human life, living a perfect and sinless life, and then dying on the cross for the purposes of satisfying divine justice, undergoing death, destroying death, ransoming humanity from its clutches and rising up on the third day. Christ thereby opened up to us the way to divinization, i.e. partaking in the divine nature, allowing us to conform to the image of Christ, to become sons of God and co-heirs with Christ by grace. We were redeemed, reconciled, saved, and allowed the possibility of closer communion than ever before. To top it off, it was a beautiful display of God’s mercy, love and compassion towards mankind. I feel thankful even typing this.

The question is less ‘what did He do?’ and more ‘what didn’t He do?’

Question: What's the purpose of having two copies of the same translation? Like, say, an evangelical with a standard ESV and the ESV Study Bible? Or a Catholic with the standard RSV-2CE and the Didache RSV-2CE? Or a KJOnlyist with a CBP King James and a KJV Study Bible? Wouldn't all three dudes be completely served with just the ESVSB, Didache RSV-2CE, and KJVSB, respectively? Considering the only difference is that all the standards don't have the study materials/notes, but the studies all have everything the non-study variants have plus more?

>>19678735
Sometimes the study variants are bulkier and not as good for quick reference or bringing on-the-go.

>>19678735
Just get the study versions. Only difference is when there's multiple study versions which use the same translation (for example, NRSV Oxford Study vs NRSV HarperCollins Study). In that case the commentary notes will be different.

>>19678645
Something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole Mosaic law being handwaved away as just "ohh that's just to show the silly Jews how impossible it is to live perfectly in God's eyes."
And something doesn't sit well with me about the fact that God sacrificing himself was solving a problem HE CREATED by setting up man to fall (even predestining him to fall) and being so beholden to his own rules that he had to sacrifice himself to satisfy his own rules (that he could change at any moment)

this is MY god

>>19678752
I get that, but I've seen people get the regular and "supped-up" versions and pay to have both rebound in high-end leather. I don't fully understand why a person would do that, put both on their bookshelf, and have any real reason to ever pull the non-study version off the shelf to consult.

>>19678771
>Something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole Mosaic law being handwaved away as just "ohh that's just to show the silly Jews how impossible it is to live perfectly in God's eyes."
The way I’ve come to see it is that the New Covenant was foretold long before Christ in Jeremiah 31, among other places, and that Jesus reveals the deeper meanings behind aspects of the OT law, such as summing up the law and the prophets in the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and God with your whole heart, which is practically applied via treating others as you wish to be treated—“for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12). And then in Romans 13:8-10 we read that loving one’s neighbor is the fulfillment of the law. This is compatible with what Christ said in several places in the Gospels, one of which was just referenced. The law is spiritualized and summed up in the New Covenant, for the New Covenant is not for the lawless (1 Timothy 1:9-10), i.e. stiff-necked Israelites. Aspects of the Old point to the New, and it is not a total break, it is a higher form. Christ shows this Himself in how He declares all foods clean (Mark 7:19), seemingly flaunts aspects of the sabbath, and associated with those the law of Moses would deem ‘impure’ or ‘unclean’ like Samaritans, lepers, etc.

Then we have stuff such as this from Ezekiel 20:25—“So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live”

>solving a problem HE CREATED by setting up man
Read the Church Fathers on the purpose of Paradise before the fall, it was an initial test for Adam, and he was called to climb to progressively higher levels of communion / divinization. The trees were for his free will to act upon.

>even predestining him to fall
Foreknew, but didn’t cause.

>he had to sacrifice himself to satisfy his own rules (that he could change at any moment)
The word of the Lord endures forever. He will not change what He has decreed.

>>19678771
remember: the atonement theory really took off with the Reformation and is not the traditional christian theory. I agree it also is questionable: God needs to satisfy himself for the injustice of his own created creatures? not really logical. the "defeat of death" theory makes more sense. this is also why apocatastasis is very much the end result of the Christus Victor theory, one i happen to agree with. many of the Eastern Fathers reached this conclusion as well.

Also, keep in mind, some people still believe the Mosaic law is in effect for Jews. There is a strain of thought which says that Jews will continue to be saved under the old cov. as it was never abrogated. for this reason a lot of denominations do not attempt to convert jews. there's also such things as "hebrew catholics" (not messianic "judiasm", which is a 70s prot invention) who are ethnic jews who keep the Torah and still participate in the mass and accept Jesus as the messiah.

>>19678863
>some people still believe the Mosaic law is in effect for Jews
Kek, how do they cope with the fact that they can’t even do the mandated sacrifices?

>>19678863
>apocatastasis
there are some fascinating theories that God incarnated into angelic nature as well, and all angels will eventually be saved through the same sacrifice. that is why hell quite literally won't exist. read more into the descent of christ in the grave.

>>19678880
welcome to the Talmud.

>>19678863
>apocatastasis
Scripture says hell is eternal over and over

>>19678890
αἰώνιος does not translate to the english meaning of eternal. also, the only mentions of "to the age" punishment are in parables. this is highly important as Jesus never tells parables without a "narrative" internal to itself. read gregory of nyssa, isaac the syrian, and dorotheos of gaza

>>19652152
I read Revelations in 2019 and had a breakdown. I read it again in 2021 and felt at Peace. I think it was a warning for me to get on the true path. Quit alcohol, quit pursuing women, got a job, am doing much better. Re-read Job today and had another bit of a crisis. IDK anons I think I've been living vainly and doing 'good' things in a faithless way.

>>19678890
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/essential-readings-on-universalism/

>>19678921
Are you trying to tell me that the truth of the Lord will not endure forever, anon? This is quite ad hoc

>καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦ Κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

>>19678965
here is a detailed lexical analysis of how αἰώνιος was used in koine and attic sources. it refers to a temporary period of time.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

don't rely on english translations alone.

>>19679001
You didn’t answer the question—does ‘καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦ Κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα‘ mean that the truth of the Lord will only last ‘to the age’? Easy question

>>19679016
I am not able to know the answer to that. I don't subscribe much to Thomistic scholasticism regarding the qualities of God.

>>19678794
consumer fetishism. if there's no practical reason it's simply consumer faggotry

Hey /lit/, I'm fluent in spanish, which version of the Bible would you recommend?
I should mention my background is catholic.

>>19678863
>there's also such things as "hebrew catholics" (not messianic "judiasm", which is a 70s prot invention) who are ethnic jews who keep the Torah and still participate in the mass and accept Jesus as the messiah.
That's quite fascinating.

>>19679939
La Sagrada Biblia Torres Amat

>>19652096
Reading psalms and proverbs makes me PATRIARCH-pilled. We're all going to make it bros.

>Blessed is every one who fears the Lord, who walks in his ways!
>You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall be well with you.
>Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table.
>Lo, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord.
>The Lord bless you from Zion! May you see the prosperity of Jerusalem all the days of your life!

>>19678933
Read Ecclesiastes next.

I'm gonna read Rev just so i can fet filtered and go study to understand it. Tips?

I read Revelations last night. Currently working through John, and reading Acts with my Bible study group. Probably going to start Genesis soon.

>>19680278
Focus on its connection to the Gospels over the imagery. Elaine Pagels' has a book about Revelations that's really good.

Been reading the Book of Wisdom and the Book of Sirach a lot recently. The O.T. is really just there to blackpill you almost beyond repair, and then BAM Jesus Christ saves your soul in the N.T.

I'm struggling to find a church pretty hard. Wife likes new age Christian churches.
I like old school with hymns and ocassionaly some hellfire sermons (way I was raised) but mainly just a little more traditional.

Pretty much every church in our area is new age. Same songs, same lights and band setup, PowerPoint songs and messages. This makes me view them all as slick and showy and I feel like I don't get a ton from the services. But, I try to go for my wife, hoping I will find at least a good message

Any advice on navigating this? I was always taught a major step toward salvation is conviction, being lost, knowing you need mercy from God or you are doomed. Alot of places we've gone I haven't heard it nor testimony of salvation from members which is something I remember when I was younger. I'm concerned about it. I've begun praying about it more urgently which will help but would appreciate any advice you all can give. Also sorry about the blog post

>>19680885
Go very traditional. Try to watch out and dneounce a few things if they are there to convince your wife.
New age brings wealth sermons and "hyper-grace" teachings to mind. You see any of that?

>>19680885
Actually, rephrasing that, do you ser anything that strikes you as odd?

>>19680902
>>19680907
>New age brings wealth sermons and "hyper-grace" teachings to mind
You're gonna have to elaborate, not sure what you mean
Thing that struck me as odd at one yesterday, you didn't have to be a member of the church to take communion. Everywhere else I went you had to be a member, even some of the other new age churches

Other things that throw me off are they don't preach about salvation too much. Sometimes theyll mention it but messages at these places seem to be more a Bible study less a message of repentance
>we are going through our series on David
>we are going through our series on revelation
And they often have title slides for power point to go with it
And of course one or two have had gay couples at them. God forgives and I am not too judge but, I feel like that's a sign that a churches morals and devotion to Bible teachings are more lax

Maybe I'm being overly critical but this stuff throws me off

>>19680940
Some typos in there but ah well

>>19679969
Thanks

>>19680940
Hyper-grace is the idea of just having faith saving you and that you can do whatever. Wealth sermons are the ones that focus on material gain.
>the rest of what you said
Sounds bad
>gay couples accepted
Leave immediately.

>>19680958
Focus on material gain excessively i may add.
Also on communion, did they offer it to unbaptized members?

>>19680967
Cut the 'excessive' start. It muddles what i meant.

>>19680967
They made no mention of baptism.
I'm not sure how they do it, I'll have to ask electronically i guess but if they do allow it prior to baptism it's definitely a no go. I believe they said alls they required for it was a relationship with Christ.
My wife asked if I was comfortable doing communion there, I said no, and she understood and didn't either.

As to hyper grace, this is something I'm weary of as well. Just because the Lord is forgiving doesn't mean it's ok to do anything you want. I know I've struggled with this myself and try to do better.

And material gain, there hasn't been much mention anywhere we've gone thankfully. If I see that I'll be concerned

>>19657047
Nietzsche is dead. God bless you friend.

>>19680744
>Book of Wisdom and the Book of Sirach
This is a Bible thread.

>>19681530
The masorites called - they want their post Christian Talmudic "canon" back

>>19681530
Yes, and you should probably stop using one with whole books torn out of it because the Pharisees told you to when calling the NT books noncanonical in the same breath.

>>19680744
Solomon knew life does not have meaning without God. With Christ everything is born again and there's redemption.

Ultra-newbie here, is it true that the Old Testament is all about how Jews are Gods chosen people or did I got goofed? Also, can I jump straight into the New Testament or do I have to read the Old first?

>>19672877
you have a very narrow view of what 'science' means

>>19682322
>Ultra-newbie here, is it true that the Old Testament is all about how Jews are Gods chosen people or did I got goofed?
The old testament shows how wicked and rebellious man is, including the israelites and how God had to come in the flesh in order to make the way for salvation
It's why Jesus is prophesied in the Garden of Eden and why from Genesis onward even the Israelites disobey God, complaining about being in the wilderness, building idols to return to Egypt, keeping riches from conquered peoples, allowing them to live with them, and ultimately turning to false gods themselves before being uprooted by the Assyrians and Babylonians, before repenting and begging to go home (which they do a bit prior to Alexander's conquest).

You can jump straight into the new testament if you want. No matter where you start you will have to read and re read the Bible to keep learning. New testament does reference the old but its not gonna prevent you from reading and the book of Hebrews gives a run down on alot of big figures from the OT

>>19682322
>Ultra-newbie here, is it true that the Old Testament is all about how Jews are Gods chosen people or did I got goofed?
The Old Testament is actually mostly about the Jews fucking up and constantly betraying God, portraying them as untrustworthy, ungrateful, and whinny people who deserve every punishment they get. Them being "Chosen People" does not have the glowing sense that you picture, as it's a matter of them being chosen to be model people and then countless books about how they fail to live up to that calling. That said, you probably should read the Gospels before the OT. Either that, or read the first 11 chapters of Genesis and then read the Gospels.

>>19682356
You have a very broad view of what 'science' means.

>>19682322
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard is all you need.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2020%3A1-16&version=NIV

bump

>>19674552
Have faith anon, don't give up :C

Thoughts on these?
https://www.ignatius.cc/publications.html

>>19683586
I am not a giant fan of the EOB translation but it's a good choice, especially if you're just reading it for devotional use. The best bible is the one you use, so the sayings go

>>19683680
I genuinely wish there was a full EOB NT, 6x9" size, with a sewn binding, because then you could rebind it if the cover was bonded leather or basic hardback; but there isn't, so those two books are the closest alternative. The EOB OT doesn't exist so there's no full EOB Bible, the standard original EOB NT is a glued CreateSpace paperback, and the Newrome Press EOB NT is a zippered pocket NT. For a denomination that's heavy on the aesthetics, the Orthodox community strangely can't either do a nice leather NT or at least a sewn, normal-size hardback that can be easily converted into the former.

>>19683727
No pain in being practical.

Love these threads. Any one around? Let's chat.

Restarting since I fell off my reading schedule last year. Following the 90-day program and am supplementing my readings from Genesis with Hillsdale's free class on the subject. I feel like I'm already grasping so much more this time around especially with regards to the deeper implications of the story of Esau and Jacob.

But I also felt so dumb not realizing what was actually going on in 32:22-32 on my previous readthrough.

Any lecture or talk series aboutthe Bible worth listening to?

>>19684384
For Catholics, the Bible in a Year podcast ended last Friday, so the entire Bible is available in that form of commentary. For Protestants, the Bible Project and "Pastor Landon" might serve you well in short bites, though both can be rather informal. The Hillsdale program >>19684320 mentions could also be worthwhile.

>>19680273
I read it before Revelations. Truly touching. I think I'll do Psalms and Proverbs next to finish the history books, since I already did Song of Solomon

I'll ask here since this is the only Christian thread on the board rn.

I am likely going to be in a situation where I'm accepted for an Master's program in Theology at a well known Catholic university. I spent close to a year working and discerning theology through Ignatian methods and prayer, and I am quite interested in theology and it's the only subject I've ever enjoyed reading about in my free time. However, I am concerned because 1. I'll be basically putting myself on a path where the only job I can take is teaching at a Catholic HS (probably for pretty low pay), and, 2. I've been faithful on and off to the Church, I'm pretty hedonistic at heart and have been, at times, deep into sexual compulsion, and I'm really not the typical "on fire" very outwardly religious person who studies theology - if anything I'm more interested in Biblical hermeneutics and theologians like Tillich, von Balthasar, Sherrad, etc. Also, I've been accepted to a nursing program as well (and I have a guaranteed admission to a master's program in public policy from when I was a political science undergrad.) and while the money will be way better I really have no interest at all in the medical side of nursing or in public policy - I'd more enjoy just spending time with people and I truly like explaining things to people. My dream job would probably be to teach theology or philosophy at the university level.

My main concern is that I won't fit in with the other students and that I'm not religious enough to succeed in such a program. I'm definitely not the typical "devotional trad" Catholic. Any thoughts on my situation? Ultimately I know I'll probably have to trust the decision I made in a time of consolation but part of me is afraid of giving up the earning and career opportunities - and, desu, the chance at finding a "normal" gf and life - what will most girls act like when I state that I'm a theologian? it makes me sound like a closeminded zealot, which I'm not. I'm not from a religious family, and I'm not sure I want my marriage pool to be women who want to homestead and have 10 kids. Yet I truly think I have a vocation to theology. I'm quite conflicted. Any advice here? thank you in advance for anyone who read my blogpost.

need physical copy of the KJV with apocrypha, any recommendations for a good publisher?

>>19678735
>>19678794
Don't listen to >>19679266. Listen to >>19678752. It totally makes sense for a Catholic to have both the standard Ignatius and the Didache Ignatius. Take it from me, the Didache Bible is not something you want as a primary Bible; it's big, it's bulky, the paper is very thin and has heavy ghosting that's thankfully minimized due to line-matched text, and its CCC notes can sometimes be so extensive that more than half the page is just notes pushing the actual Bible text to a fraction of the page--an example I can give is the beginning of Genesis, where the first three chapters are extensively annotated and page 6 in particular has more than 2/3 (closer to 3/4) of the page taken up by notes. It is an extremely useful resource for ***extra*** study, but I would question why someone would use such a heavily annotated Bible as a primary Bible rather than as a supplement for at-home use that never leaves the house unless it goes to a Bible Study group session every now and then. If you use the Didache Bible as your only Bible for yourself and your family, you're going to have a hard time, especially since you'll deny yourself the opportunity to just sit down and tune out the notes in favor of the Scripture itself when you want to--it's hard to ignore something if it takes up half the page.

By contrast, the standard Ignatius is very lightly noted, with brief book introductions in the corner of starting pages and translation notes with the very occasional additional note every now and then; the notes never, ever take up more than a sliver of the page. This is what you want from a regular Bible and for general reading, both at home and on the road; this is your primary Bible. I'm only explaining the Catholic case, but the same logic can be directly applied to your two other examples, the ESV/ESVSB and the KJV/KJVSB. And in the future, the same will be true with the complete Ignatius Catholic Study Bible; God help anyone who attempts to use that as a primary family/personal Bible, going by the degree of notes in the current NT volume.

As for why they'd get both rebound in high-end leather? I'd guess because they don't trust the bonded leather to last forever, lol. No reason to criticize a man for trying to prolong the lifespan of his copy of the Bible(s), all while supporting modest Christian leather businesses.

>>19683582
The she-devil knows me too well...

>>19685088
This one's okay
https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Paragraph-Bible-Apocrypha-KJ590

>>19685124
brother if you were wandering in the forest for many years, do not expect to find your way out quickly. if you fall, get back up. God will be waiting for you each time you do :)

>>19685138
Dead link.
https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Paragraph-Bible-Apocrypha-KJ590/dp/0521762847

>>19685088
If money's not an objection and you want one that'll last a lifetime, KJV Cambridge Cameo Reference w/ Apocrypha is what you want.
https://www.amazon.com/Reference-Apocrypha-Calfskin-Leather-Red-letter/dp/1107608074
I wish it was in black-letter, but what can you do? They used to do this with black letters but they don't seem to anymore.

>>19685191
If you're interested in this one, you can look at it in detail here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrBXHH86o28

>>19685110
>all this verbiage to cope with consumer fetishism
It's ok to have a standard ESV and a sstudy ESV, but having them both rebound in human foreskins to "preserve" them is pointless. You will not get as much use out of a study Bible if you have a regular Bible that you use daily.

A very clear message that my attempts at prayer are unworthy. I am here on earth: who am I to speak? If I can't hear him it's because my ears are resounding with my own voice.

>>19685381
>defaming the Bible with penis jokes
Repent, sinner.

>>19685381
>all this verbiage to cope with consumer fetishism
Three sentences saying "lol I guess because they wanna" is "all this verbiage"?

>>19652096
you cant understand the Bible without comments or so i heard

there are many commentaries on the Bible, some even have thousands of pages

I flipped through the front matter of my Bible and, in the list of Jesus's sayings with chapter-verse citations, I got drawn to John 15:18-27, read it, and nearly broke down in tears. How a single paragraph can bring me to my knees and send a shiver down my spine and nearly cause my eyes to water so, I'll never truly understand.

>>19685516
To think that the all-knowing and all-powerful Almighty would come to Earth, to suffer and die on our behalf. To think that He would pluck me out from this sinful world, and tell me He forgives me. That He loves me, cares for me deeply, wishes to be my comfort, that He will listen earnestly to my every concern and worry. What privilege for man to walk with his loving Maker! What a blessing, that Creator would call creation friend!

Pondering Christ's love for us has brought me to tears myself many times, anon. And all that He asks is that we do as He says.

Should the bible be read as a collection of historical incidences, pure fiction, or something more metaphorical?
A lot of people told me they don't "believe in the bible" as if tries to tell the stories of real people and things that happened but I've grown to believe that every story is going far beyond that. Kinda like how Robert Bly explained the fairy tale "Iron John" as an allegory for men going through the initiation ritual into manhood. Rather than treating the fairy tale as a mere fun story about a boy releasing a wild man from his cage.

I haven't read a lot of the bible to be fair but I'm looking for one to read, not quite sure if I should read it english or my native language.

>>19685871
It's historical but there is indeed alot of metaphors and deeper meanings within it
Easy example is God killing an innocent animal to cover the nakedness of Adam an Eve, symbolizing Jesus' sacrifice that would cover humanity's sin
There's also one many talk about which is agriculture vs pastoral society in Cain and Abel. I don't agree with that interpretation because God literally tells Adam he's gonna have to work the ground for his food

>>19672796
>Masoretic Text
>Reaffirmed at kumran
Lmao

Job 38
Best speech ever

>>19685871
It should be read as a documentation of the relationship between God and man
Take genesis 1
Scientifically, it's nonsense
But you can't call it a metaphor either
It is a very clear exposition of the three way relationship between God, man and the cosmos by portraying it as a temple building narrative
The thing about the Bible is that it was written across almost 1000 years depending on when you date the most archaic passages of genesis and whichever epistle we consider to be the latest until an earlier copy is found nowadays
Context is absolutely essential and we live in a time and place when we can really do it
>>19684384
You really wanna get based, you'll listen to the whole counsel of God
It's EO and the lecturer has some curious views about certain things and occasionally falls for pop etymologies but is otherwise a treat to listen to as he explains the Assyrian documentations

>>19686549
Dude the only error scientifically debatable about Genesis 1 accuracy it's that it says that first He created plants and later the Sun and the Moon and stars. Everything else is strikingly exact as far as Cosmology, Astrophysics, Geology and Paleontology have as empirical evidence

>>19686597
You do know that genesis 1 imagines a flat earth, right?
This was a pretty common cosmology at the time
Yes, there is some cool stuff that sounds remarkably scientific sprinkled around but that's not the point
It's like focusing on the tongues in Pentecost

>>19686612
No, it doesn't. It says 'up' and 'down', but it doesn't disregard Earth's spherical shape. It's about the gravitational field.

>>19654818
Alot of non catholic sauces do as well

>>19652179
cool design

>>19653826
>somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 JWs
shouldn't it be at most 144,000?

Why people say to avoid the Nova Vulgata?

What's the preferred scholarly translation and edition of the bible in English, with Apocrypha? Preferably in separate books and with analysis. Even better if the same compiler produces a scholarly translation of the Quran.
I basically want the ultimate secular texts of the Abrahamic faiths.

>>19687073
>Abrahamic
>Quran

>>19652179
The Bible must read like kino in (probably some sacred register of) Japanese.

>>19653115
>What kind of denominations are most popular in Japan?
AFAIK you have every option but there are more Catholics.
>N-NANI?! FURANSHISŪ-SAMA... AREWA MARĪA DEWANAI... AREWA... P-PĀCHAMĀMA DE ARIMASU YO! Y-YAMETEKUDASAI FURANSHISŪ, YAMETEEEEEE KUREEE!!

>>19685871
>metaphorical
When are you kids going to learn the word "allegorical"?

>>19686622
this is massive cope. genesis origin stories are near east myths like the enuma elish. they contain moral truth, however.

>>19687024
revised from non-vulgate sources

>>19687073
oxford study bible w/ oxford commentary on the bible

>>19687387
So Oxford is still agreed as the best? Just wanted to see if there were any other serious contenders.

>>19685871
The bible is not one book despite what retarded prots believe and should be read as each book separately with its own context forming one institutional and instructional Canon.
Genesis for example is entirely allegorical, and the allegories range wildly from restating parts of the Epic of Gilgamesh to far more culturally refined stories of Judaic religious icons such as Moses, Noah, etc.
The First and Second Books of Kings, meanwhile, are not nearly as allegorical and would have been understood as "true" history to the Israelites, and much more contemporary.

>>19687426
ESV has been more useful to me so far.

>>19687073
Oh, I forgot to add, I'd really prefer a version that does not rely on translation material from the Vulgate.

>>19687522
The 2016 edition doesn't seem to contain the Apocrypha

>>19687617
Oh nevermind, my bad, forgot about the Apocrypha.

>>19687661
Also doesn't seem to be available as separated books. Maybe I'd be better looking for a separated Pentateuch, Prophetic Texts, and etc that shares a modern translation edition with the Gospels?

>>19685871
>Should the bible be read as a collection of historical incidences, pure fiction, or something more metaphorical?
it should be read as the physical structure of reality, as judaism teaches.

>>19685871
>not quite sure if I should read it english or my native language
native
ideally biblical hebrew and biblical greek

>>19687617
https://www.cambridge.org/us/bibles/all-titles/esv-diadem-reference-edition-apocrypha-hb-es540xa?format=HB

What are some books/chapters/verses about forgiveness

>>19687711

>>19687711
These are from a Strong's concordance.

>>19652096
I'm a very shallow reader of the Bible and someone who came to faith through what I'll describe as work of spirit
I am reading Athanasius
Does the idea he puts forth that the logos became incarnate and died on the cross in order to retain divine consistency hold sway in theological circles of any sect?
It sounds a lot like penal substitution or ransom but at the same time different
Maybe I'm misinterpreting

>>19687709
Is this the most recent ESV edition (2016) with the Apocrypha of the 2009 ESV just added in? Or is it a reprint of the whole 2009 ESV?

>>19687873
I don't think any surviving sects of Christianity give even the slightest relation to gnostic and neoplatonist concepts like the Logos, ngl. Maybe the Eastern Orthodox Church still does, but probably not very openly.

>>19687905
I'm sorry if I caused confusion but by logos I meant Christ
I'm not sure Athanasius was a gnostic, he's the big trinity guy and he starts the book by taking a shot at gnostics

>>19687220
Here's Matthew from the '87 New Interconfessional Translation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYdQS2HQebU

>christian
>chantard
choose one

>>19669401
It's a kind of cosmic retribution for how Jacob takes advantage of his brother's need to take his birthright and deceives his father to get Esau's intended blessing from Isaac.

>>19687897
This edition of the ESV w/ Apocrypha does indeed use the 2016 text. As for the Apocrypha text itself, I can't say if it's the 2009 translation of those books or whether they used the revision they made for the ESV-CE, which included a total retranslation of Tobit.

Thoughts on this ministry?
https://www.faithcomesbyhearing.com/audio-bible-resources/bible-is

>>19687953
>man
>woman
no choice (You) will never be either but will always be a male

bump

>>19687943
Athanasius himself doesn't need to be a gnostic; the Churches and the early Orthodoxy were spiritually and conceptually close to gnostic thought (and other, less well documented emergent interpretations of Messianic Judaism and Christian teachings).
But the Orthodoxy and especially the Catholic church have moved far away from that mindset, such that much of that language and mode of interpretation is just obsolete in modern typical Churches. Orthodox scholars could probably talk your ear off all day about those concepts but probably not the layman even in a fervent Greek Orthodox church.

Imagine seriously thinking the ESV is an actual Bible.

>>19688107
Cheers, looks perfect.

>>19689601
Imagine thinking the Bible written in any modern language is a holy scripture with inherent spiritual or metaphysical value, holy shit. You might as well be a Mormon digging up tablets at this point.

>>19687709
For those interested there is a leatherbound edition of the Diadem slated to be released in spring 2022, if the hardback isn't your cup of tea.

>>19652179
A5. Costs more but, like you said, it'd be a comfortable size.

>>19685871
Every section of the bible should be read in it's literary genre.
Poetry is meant to be understood as poetry. Prophecy as prophecy. Historical prose as prose.

There is no serious approach to the Bible which just calls it "fiction" or "metaphorical"

>>19689874
>There is no serious approach to the Bible which just calls it "fiction" or "metaphorical"
The prot tradition of just reading random selections from da bibble in no particular order like a fucking Ouija board has severely damaged the ability of Americans to read the Bible critically. I guarantee you the average American (and assuredly the average Christian European) does not KNOW there is a distinction between the Poetic books, Prophetic Books, Wisdom books, etc or what an "apocrypha" is.

>>19689920
Still beats the long standing Cath/Orth tradition of not even reading it and just believing whatever "priests" say.

>>19690026
>Oy very better not listen to what the Apostles say! I can read it all myself, like Nestorius told me!

>>19690093
The only recorded words you have of the Apostles are in Scripture.

>>19689920
Show me any protestant teacher advocating what you described

>>19690093
>this stuff that's not in the Bible is what the Apostles told us we swear
>never mind those direct quotes of Christ in Scripture, call us Father
>never mind those direct quotes of Christ in Scripture, pray how we tell you instead, to "Mary", and "saints"
>the more money you give us the less time you have to spend in Hell Lite when you die

>>19690127
Literally any modern Reformed theologian

>>19690026
Actually, it doesn't. It's seriously better to not read something and have people read it to you with proper context than to read something incorrectly and have people read it to you also incorrectly. The former still has a chance that the layman will receive the proper understanding while the latter has a 100% chance of the layman receiving the incorrect understanding.

>>19690127
James White.

>>19690149
Make sure you follow your own advice then (I'm sure you already do).

I use an NRSV, is there a better catholic bible I should be reading? I realized as I was reading all of the famous lines are stripped of any poetry in the nrsv.

>>19690159
I don't listen to James White jump between verses in Romans as if they're all in the same paragraph, so I'm good.

>>19690147
Show me

>>19690157
Show me

>>19690172
RSV2CE or the Knox. The ESVCE has even less poetry, whereas the 2CE still has the poetic cadence of the RSV and the Knox is the most poetic translation from the Latin. If you're having trouble with the NRSVCE stripping out poetic cadence then the ESVCE will only be worse for you. The RSV2CE actually has the bonus that the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 is exactly 1:1 how you say it privately and in mass.

>>19652108
based troll actually affirming the historical authenticity of biblical narratives

>>19690198
Thanks!! the bit about the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew is exactly what made me ask this. Is the NRSV they had “debtors” in place of “trespasses” and I was like, wtf?!

I'm not a Christian but I feel like this is the best place to ask for advice, how do I stop falling back into my vices? I keep telling myself that I would make change and improve myself but I keep falling back into the same old routine. I keep wasting on 4chan replying to infuriating threads that do nothing that make me mad. I keep masturbating even though I keep telling myself I will stop. And I have a bad habit of procrastinating on my work. How do I start actually changing myself for the better?

>>19690259
To be fair, the traditional Douay-Rheims also has debtors, so it's actually not as odd as you think. But picrel is the RSV2CE.

>>19690259
To be fair, the traditional Douay-Rheims also has debtors, so it's actually not as odd as you think. The original RSV-CE, too, and the ESV, the King James, and virtually every English Bible. Only the RSV-2CE changed it to "trespasses."

>>19690127
Literally go to any modern Protty church service. Do you think the stereotype of ministers that behave like used car salesmen materialized out of thin air? That it was revealed to me in a dream?

>>19677723
>>19677723
which of these would you recommend?

>>19690317
First you must address the venial sin that leads to your mortal sins. Let me provide an example, why would you masturbate? Well, almost assuredly you have come across pornographic material or out of pure boredom your mind wanders into lustful thoughts. So, lets start with this intermediary behavior. How do we avoid pornographic material and the boredom? For the former you need to stop going on 4chan or whatever board it is, and for the boredom you have to address it. Now take it a step further, why are you even going on 4chan at all? I am sure you get where this is going. All of this stuff starts with inactivity. You need to have something not just occupying your time like a job, but you need a passion. Something that interests you so much that you won't even be bored enough to want to open 4chan or pornhub or twitter. Address the underlying venial sin that snowballs into risking your soul.

>>19690333
Adding on to this, the Knox also has "trespasses." I just checked mine. So just the RSV2CE and the Knox.

>>19690317
The Bible has almost no advice on dealing with sins of vice; the Catholic concern with cardinal vices and virtues is an invention of the middle ages and if you were to really scour the biblical text for psychological aid you will end up chopping off your foreskin and avoiding fish on thursdays because ol' Levi said to.
Go read fucking Nicomachean Ethics, maybe Epictetus if you are in serious emotive depression. Also, not masturbating will not grant you superpowers and eating candy makes your brain more active. "Vice" is on some level a boogeyman.

>>19690351
>why are you even going on 4chan at all?
Because there are occasional threads here that I enjoy and find funny

>>19677723
Unfathomably based, I was frantically trying to find a resource for making this EXACT distinction. Have there been further tests of this? I'd love to see where the ESV falls on here.

>>19690365
But also because you are bored, no? That's why I am here right now and I would be happier reading the bible or another book. It's comforting because it's easier and its easier because it's comforting. But you are happier without coming here. Why is it so hard to do what you know will ultimately make you happier? I am struggling with this myself but it's worth thinking about.

>>19690353
>needed to check
>didn't know
Catholics don't read the Bible confirmed

>>19690366
Disregard this post, I suck cocks

>>19678860
Read the Church Fathers on the purpose of Paradise before the fall, it was an initial test for Adam, and he was called to climb to progressively higher levels of communion / divinization. The trees were for his free will to act upon.
where exactly could i read more about this

>>19690377
>reading three Bibles means you can't check which two use one word and which one uses another
Prots confirmed for not reading the Bible enough.

>>19690341
I have. It's almost always the common lectionary, a denominational lectionary, or lectio continua

>>19690377
jew

>>19690350
Which of what? You quoted the same post twice, with the one post containing 21 Bibles. If you mean which of the 21, you'll need to state your criteria.

I want to care about theology but I also don't want to be a weirdo. Why can't I just be normal and not care like other people and work some normal job and watch netflix and be happy.

>>19690393

>>19690402
I've done exactly what you want and it's gayer than you could ever image. I still work a normal job and don't really care too much butd i will read parts of the bible, turn my head, and say "here we go again" before I descend into schizo madness and start trying to apply God's teachings to shit as mundane as making breakfast.

>>19690405
the average American "catholic" also supports abortion and votes democrat (see Joe Biden, Pelosi, etc.) If you are not in communion with the Church or actively going to mass you can't really be called a practicing Catholic.

>>19690394
>Read-along bible commentaries because your minister is too fucking stupid or lazy to assemble novel interpretations or just teach you the actual content of the bible back-to-front
This is just insulting. Calling it a lectionary does not make it better.

>>19690410
Which part have you done, the "be normal" or the care about theology part?

>>19690405
25% of a group reading the Bible correctly once a week or more is still better than 63% reading it incorrectly once a week or more, desu. We've already discussed this and settled this matter in this thread. If 63% of Prots read "Thou shalt commit adultery" and 25% of Catholics read "Thou shalt not commit adultery," the Prots aren't in the better standing.

>>19690417
the be normal part, it's not that great. How far are you taking your obsession with theology that it is impacting your life this much that you talk about wanting to stop but can't or won't?

Has anyone here read Alter's literary Hebrew Bible translation? Aside from being ABSOLUTELY HERETICAL, is it worth a read? Does temple hebrew have any literary quality that would make it worth digesting?
I really want to buy it just to support that absolute madman in making a no shit one man retranslation in the modern day.

going to read my bible, night guys

>>19690432
>he doesn't know

>>19690410
Honestly I think you'll get more value out of going full retard on the theological aesthetics as long as you don't just end up a pawn for the Church or Temple. Avoid being a religion consoomer and descend into insanity.

>>19690440
Forgot about this, lmao. Though I'm sure its been fixed in later printings, no?

>>19690425
it's not talking about it, it's potentially studying it and making it a career.

>>19690432
It's 100% from the Masoretic Text without sticking in the LXX and DSS where clear corruption occurred in the MT, so expect it to take every chance it can to rip Christ out of the text. That said, if you truly want to see how the Jews read the OT on its own, with a comparable rhythm, cadence, wordplay, and structure, Alter is better than the alternatives like the "official" translation from the Jewish Publication Society.

>>19690451
Yes, it's been confirmed by others that it was fixed, but that doesn't prevent it from being funny. That said, if you ever do buy it, you at least know the first place to check in case you need to return it.

novus threadus
>>19690470
>>19690470
>>19690470

>>19690460
>so expect it to take every chance it can to rip Christ out of the text
I can not imagine reading the hebrew holy book and expecting it to confirm Christ's divinity as the Messiah, so since I'm not a complete retard, I think I'll survive.
I fully plan to balance out my consumption of Jewish schmutz with a modern Septuagint-sourced translation, not that I'm religious anyways.

>>19690401
I suppose something as far away from the masoretic texts as possible while still being digestible for a layman. I currently have an ESV and a brenton sept. nevermind the double quoting. my build of 4chanX is broken

>>19690503
Answered in the next thread.

>>19690376
>For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
many such cases

>>19690317
You have two understand two important aspects, anon. First; you should always ask God to forgive you, pray for redemption and forgiveness. And you should try your best to fight those urges. Second; All those negative habits weren't created in one day, they are the result of years of abuse and sin, you are not going to fix all those problems in just one day, but the fact you want to improve is a good thing. You should little by little try to fight those urges and reduce those unhealthy habits. If it is possible change those habits for more healthy ones.
We can always choose to be better.
Pic related is also a pretty good advice.
That's my advice as a Catholic person.
>>19690354
>if you were to really scour the biblical text for psychological aid you will end up chopping off your foreskin and avoiding fish on thursdays because ol' Levi said to.
Read Saint Paul of Tarsus, you great idiot

>be Peterson
>take a Matthew quote out of context
>"To he who has more is given, to he who has little all will be taken."
>after thinking long and hard about the quote, say this quote says a lot about our world
>say it's basically the Pareto distribution
>say it's like the 80/20 law (in any given system it's likely that 20% of people get 80% of the good stuff)
Petersonbros, this quote in Matthew is really about faith in Heaven and the rewards of Heaven.

>>19691803
sorry for butchering the quote.
also this:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect

>>19687947
Sounds like very modern Japanese, but very pleasant nonetheless.

>>19687947
Now I've watched bits of Orthodox Liturgy in Japanese and it was the weirdest thing I've seen in a while with the Russian style choirs and monotonal reading in Japanese, and the anime iconostasis...

>>19691805
>they butchered it so hard it's an "effect"
I'm wincing

>>19691805
What the hell? That's absolutely not what the parable means. Even someone who's never read the Scriptures would understand that it's about using what you are given by God to do good work and glorify his name. There's no emphasis whatsoever on the 5 talents servant who made 5 more talents or the two talent servant who made 2 more talents, the response of the master is identical because he doesn't care. What he cares about is that the last servant buried his talent because he was a coward and neglectful toward what he was given. How do you misunderstand something so simple?