/lit/ - Literature

I've just started using a reading plan and the difference has been night and day. Previously, I would get stuck in the historical books in the Old Testament and just read the New Testament out of order and not often enough. But then I hopped on a reading plan and started devouring scripture. The difference is night and day anons, give it a shot.
The one I've been using is called the Horner (lol) system and it has you drawing on a bunch of different parts of Scripture at once. I like that because you get a good sense of how everything works together.

I picked up a king james version and will have a quaran delivered soon too.

I'm interested in them for the historical significance and other fictional stories which have been adapted from the bible. Genesis is retarded but other books which involve historical events seem interesting. Inefficient way to consume information but interesting enough.

Aby thoughts on the bible vs quaran? Tried to get the torak but will wait.

>>19606611
Checked. I think the whole Bible points to the person of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, whereas the Qur'an insists on itself being the continuation of the Abrahamic faith rather than its natural fulfillment. I just started reading Joshua again, and everything from the three days the soldiers spent hiding in the mountains, to their instructions to Rahab regarding the coming slaughter (Rahab's household symbolizing the Church aka the Body of Christ, Rahab who is even listed as one of Christ's ancestors) show their fulfillment in the New Testament and in the life and person of Jesus Christ. Definitely don't count out Genesis though. That's one of the best books of the whole bible. Super trippy, first few chapters are max comfy and the rest is essentially human pre-history and ancient Sumerian/Babylonian cosmology (that happens to be true).

>>19606405
Read KJV version from Genesis to Kings. I love the language and the stories. God/Yahweh super scary and fond of killing directly, and directing his servants (various Israelites) to kill many. It mainly seems to provide an insight into the beliefs and behaviour of iron age tribes in the Levant.
I've additionally read up on historical criticism, including the Documentary Hypothesis in its various forms.

>Have you felt anything in your heart?
Horror at what was once considered holy, and thankful that I do not live in a conflict dominated area of the world.
I had no sense of a "divine" in what I read, and the God described seems unworthy of worship

>>19606645
Thanks, I'll give Joshua a read. Any other suggestions? Favorite parts of the Quaran?

>>19606405
I dont understand what the point of living is according to Christianity. Revelation makes a point of discussing all the evil things that people will go through during the apocalypse and will be helpless to stop until jesus returns. While I cannot deny that the world increasingly resembles the book of revelation, especially with vaccine passports I have issues with ascribing to such a nihilistic world view. It would be far quicker for me to kill myself now and go to heaven than stay and live through hell on earth.

"For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."
James 4:14

>>19606672
>Favorite parts of the Quaran?
Never read the Qur'an although I do listen to Nasheeds sometime. Revelation is a sleeper. One of my favorite books in the Bible and not often read unless you're a schizo. Isiah is also good and starts off in a very compelling way.
>>19606679
>will be helpless to stop until jesus returns
The (((system))) will crush the whole world, but that doesn't mean we will be helpless. There will always be resistance--especially where God truly is. It's not nihilistic, it accepts the inevitable suffering of the world under mortal man and offers a way out, which is the belief in God through Jesus Christ and the action that comes from that belief. Bro the world has resembled the Bible before. The prophecies in Daniel 7 came true to a T. And just like in Daniel, there is always a way out: with God. Suicide is saying no to that offer and is a permanent rejection of God.

>>19606611
>thoughts on the bible vs quaran
Completely different animals except for being considered holy texts. The Qur'an is awkward to approach as it is basically ordered from longest to shortest surah/chapter. For the chronological order in which the surah's were revealed you need external sources, such as Wikipedia.

The Qur'an is full of repetition and jumps from subject to subject in the course of a few ayah/verses. It is also full of threats and some lurid descriptions of the hellfire created to torture the disbelievers for eternity. The outlook seems tribal (Muslims good, disbelievers bad) with different rules for whichever category a person falls into.

A critical distinction is that Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the direct word of God, as dictated to Muhammad through the angel Gibril (Gabriel). It is therefore perfect, inerrant and above criticism. In Muslim majority countries there is a possible death penalty for so doing, and a likely mob lynching if targeted for "insulting" the Qur'an (likewise for Muhammad). This was the fate of Priyantha Diyawadana, the Sri Lankan manager in Pakistan who took down posters of verses of the Qur'an (apparently to prepare the walls for painting) a couple of weeks ago.

>>19606611
>Tried to get the torak
What is the torak? Do you mean the Torah?
If so the Torah is the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Tanakh, and is in Christian bibles also as the first 5 books.

>>19606405
I'm revisiting Matthew
Originally, it was my least favourite gospel but I think that having taken the context into account, it's quickly becoming probably my favourite
The bit about going to Egypt for five minutes actually makes a dime of sense this time around. (The passage apparently confused most since the middle ages)
It feels almost like a parody of the kind of Judaism you find in Josephus' polemical writings

>>19606405
I've been reading nehemiah. Was surprised to find (what I think is) mention of the Holy Spirit in 9:20
>Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

>>19606645
>whereas the Qur'an insists on itself being the continuation of the Abrahamic faith rather than its natural fulfillment.
I don't see how this is an issue. It would be if they accepted the books of the bible, but they don't really have any reason to take the Judeo-Christian tradition seriously. They say both corrupted the messages of the previous Prophets, becoming idolators and forgerers of scriptures, which is why the final Prophet came to rectify our affairs like the previous ones did. Any appeal to literary analysis falls on deaf ears when put forth to a Muslim on account of this. It's a very strange thing to deal with, as they declare that God is one, that He deserves worship and that they are forever His witnesses, and that they believe in all the books He sent, and that all the Prophets were from God and were not false, and that we need His forgiveness. Very succinct. Yet they throw all other traditions under the bus, so that the proofs of Christ's mission levelled against the gentiles and the Jews have absolutely no power against them. I wonder myself how they could be blameworthy considering they honestly have no reason to take Jewish or Christian history seriously. You could argue neither does the Hindu, but the proofs of Islam are not really based on historical readings as Christianity is.

Anyone have any advice or guides for reading the bible? I always struggle to find the meaning of what I am reading especially the old testament, I could easily blast through chunks of it easily but even if I slow down one chapter or verse at a time I don't get much out of it compared to going to mass and hearing the priest read it and explain it to me. Is there a good companion or something I can read beforehand that will help me? Or maybe a better reading order where I focus on different sections instead of trying to read it like a novel.
I used to read a verse or chapter before bed off a bible app but I eventually gave up as I never truly understood the context or meaning behind what I was reading.

>>19606405
> Have you felt anything in your heart?
Nah, Job and Ecclesiastes are somewhat captivating, but I find the rest to be mind-numbing bullshit that I can't relate to at all. If this is the word of God, then God should have hired any of a number of far better authors.

>>19608253
Check out the Bible Project on Youtube! Their videos are very well-done and theologically sound too. They make videos summarizing books of the Bible and other Biblical concepts.

>>19606405
David Bentley Hart's New Testament.

>>19608253
A timeline and maps would probably help with at least understanding where and when things happened

As to meaning, take time after reading a chapter or two to ponder the significance of what you've read and what meaning a given story has beyond just the surface level

>>19608021
Wait till you find out about the two YHWHs in the Psalms and second temple rabbinic texts
The spirit here is something of a recurring character throughout the OT that from a Christian perspective is obviously the HS
Modern translations try hard to separate it from the Christian notion of the HS

>>19609155
This, start with the Tree of Life video.

>>19606405

Why yes, I have felt something in my heart. A steadfast and unchanging hatred of the idea of god, and displeasure at having to share a world with large numbers of people who believe in one.

>>19609319
Mindblowing.

Hello Bible readers. I have been watching some of Northrop Frye's lectures on Youtube.

These are among the best lectures, if not the best, available on the subject.

https://youtu.be/lbTIAto5PrQ

>>19606405
Just read Leviticus. The chapters on animal sacrifices and unclean animals were excruciating to read but then the moral laws later in the chapter are great moral code to live by

How do Jewish people justify still following the unclean animal laws when we know about nutrition and what’s in the foods now?

>>19606664
God was dealing with the Jews, that is why He acted as He did. This isn’t even a modern interpretation. Read St. Justin Martyr’s dialogue with Trypho the Jew and he says basically the same thing. From the Lord Himself: “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people.” (Exodus 32:9) And from the brother of Moses: ““Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil” (Exodus 33:22). The story of the OT is the struggle of the Israelites to consistently obey God. They are like the eponymous Jacob (Israel) who wrestles and struggles with God. 1 Timothy 1:9 also teaches us that the Jews had their law because they were lawless—“We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers“. God is love, and Jews need(ed) tough love.

>>19609352
Reddit

>>19606611
The Torah is just the first five books of the bible. The jews do give it a wider definition than that at times similarly to the way Christians use the word gospel.

The Bible is great. The Quran is interesting but sent by the devil (Muhammed's pride.)
>>19606405
Going through Joshua now. Realising God can give us power and dominion but the point is to remain a humble servant. Always reciting psalms. Always checking the mass readings. Today was the magnificat gospel. Holy Mother of God pray for us now and at the final hour.
Feliz Navidad!

>>19608332
>only words he can find to describe the most important texts in the history of mankind is "nahh bullshit lolol"
>thinks it needs better authors

fucking state of retards these days.

>>19609352
>"idea of god"

kek, you're stupid

>>19606405
I finished earlier this month. Can't wait to do it again next year.

>>19609155
Most of their OT stuff was good (their view of Jonah as satire/parody confused me, though, seeing as Jesus seemed to refer to Jonah as legit), but I couldn't get through their NT videos and just jumped to other post-reading resources.

>>19610235
Thanks for your learned post Mr. Based.

So much unbelief in this thread.

>>19606443
How long does it take you to read 10 chapters?

>>19606405
I want to start reading the bible but have two questions:
1) German or English version?
2) Which version/translation would you reccomend? Just the newest or another?
Thanks

>>19613560
There is no German or other "version" of the Holy Bible, only the King James which is in English.

>>19613587
But it's just one of many translations. Or do you try to say that it is the best and I should accept no substitute? Also, the King James Bible only seems to have the old testament, but won't you need both for "the full experience", since the old testament is everything pre- and the new testament is everything post- Jesus birth? It's sad that I have to say such a thing, but pre-emptively: No, I am not shitposting, joking, trolling etc. I just have quite literally 0 experience with the content matter to the point where I don't even know how to start, that's why I ask which version to read, because I can imagine a bible translation from (for example) 200 years ago can read very different from one 2 years ago, but newer does not always mean better.

>>19609319
>Wait till you find out about the two YHWHs in the Psalms and second temple rabbinic texts
Elaborate. I genuinely don't know what you're referring to and am curious

>>19613618
>the King James Bible only seems to have the old testament
confusedBlackman.jpg

>>19613618
Go to Bible Hub and try out different translations and see what you have the most ease in reading. You can set it to KJV and read just that, then try maybe NAS, ESV, NIV, DRB, and just see for yourself. You can click on any individual verse and see that one verse in parallel, then scroll to the bottom and see it broken down word by word in the original languages.

Are you guys ready for the NRSVue, now with more gender inclusivity, less ableism, and more?
Some samples:
>The NRSV previously translated Matthew 2:1 this way: “In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem.” The NRSV updated edition drops the masculine reference to “wise men” and replaces it with the original Greek word “magi” as used by the gospel writer, with the footnote “astrologers.”
>The NRSV editors also changed “servant-girl” to “female servant” in Mark 14:69, because “using the word girl to refer to a young woman is today regarded as demeaning,” the editors explain in a preview.
>The same approach was taken to not identify people in terms of a disability, such as in Matthew 4:24. The NRSV translation of “they brought to him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics and paralytics, and he cured them” will be updated to refer to “people possessed by demons, having epilepsy, or afflicted with paralysis, and he cured them.”
And much more:
https://friendshippress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/07092021_frp-nrsvuearc-sampler-web.pdf

I started reading the gospel of John this week to practice my latin.

It makes no fucking sense to me at all.

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

I'm a bible noob, but these passages really got me. It's just transcendental, very pretty. Can anybody recommend me a good bible study? Also, any advice on praying? I know it's better to improvise, but my inner monologue sucks to the point of feeling disrespectful

>>19611823
The more I become biblically-literate, the more bizarre the Qur’an and Islam becomes to me. I definitely think it is of demonic origin

>>19614019
>definitely think it is of demonic origin
Muhamad gets squeezed by an angel in a cave before having this new info revealed to him and dogs bark at the angel iirc
Pretty weird and definitely makes one wonder

>>19614019
>I definitely think it is of demonic origin
Demons who stole the writings of Syriac Christians, you mean.

>>19614001
>Can anybody recommend me a good bible study?
The Orthodox Study Bible is good, because it indicates things such as Old Testament typology and various cross-references. Even if you have zero interest in Orthodoxy it’s helpful.

>Also, any advice on praying? I know it's better to improvise, but my inner monologue sucks to the point of feeling disrespectful
I mix it up a bit myself. I usually start off with the Our Father and then go into personal prayers. I wouldn’t worry too much about eloquence, the goal is to commune with God and to be in His presence, after all. As long as you are sincere and not being deliberately disrespectful (as it is clear you are not). Just say what is in your heart, repent for your sins, pray for those who need it, pray to God for guidance, for discernment, etc. This is typically what I do. Maybe it will help you in some way.

>>19614066
Yeah, especially the ahadith where he goes to throw himself off a cliff after his experiences and is stopped by ‘Jibreel’ several times. Even reluctant prophets like Jonah never tried to kill themselves, they just tried to shirk their duties.
>>19614086
Is this one of the books that claim that the Qur’an is a rip-off of Christian liturgical hymns mixed with Muhammad’s schizo rants? I need to check it out. I’m just worried the language portions would go over my head since I don’t speak either of them

>>19614117
>Is this one of the books that claim that the Qur’an is a rip-off of Christian liturgical hymns mixed with Muhammad’s schizo rants? I need to check it out. I’m just worried the language portions would go over my head since I don’t speak either of them
Yes. It's a very difficult read, as some paragraphs can have like four or five different languages crammed together. By all means, have a look inside first:
https://ia800409.us.archive.org/1/items/ChristophLuxenberg/Christoph%20Luxenberg.pdf

>>19614138
Thank you, anon

>>19613618
I read the Revised Standard Version, Second Catholic Edition. Ignore the King James anon, Protestants are obsessed with the one commissioned by the literal gay king.

>>19614001
>>19614092
This >>19614092 is typically what I do as well. Be sure to ask for help in understanding what you're reading as well as thank him. Can be something as simple as thanking him for food but be sure to do so.

As far as study bible it really depends on what you're looking for. There some for life application, others for archaeological study and such.

I use the Thompson chain reference Bible and I quite like it. It has links next to the text to reference either other verses or, something in the back like the glossary. I'd advise going to a book store I'd possible and looking at the various bibles there and finding one you like. There's online reviews as well with excerpts

>>19614416
>ignore the first official English Bible because it's not catholic and king james was gay cause me thinks so
Great argument there

>>19614001
>Also, any advice on praying?
Pray one rosary every single day and be sure to contemplate the mysteries between decades.

>>19614435
>ignore the first official English Bible
He didn't ignore the Great Bible, though.
>The Great Bible of 1539 was the first authorised edition of the Bible in English, authorised by King Henry VIII of England to be read aloud in the church services of the Church of England.

>>19614435
>first official English Bible
Douay–Rheims would like a word. Regarding King James, he was a homosexual, if not a bisexual.

>“The king leans on his [Carrʼs] arm, pinches his cheeks, smooths his ruffled garment, and when he looks upon Carr, directs his speech to others.” —Thomas Howard, Earl of Suffolk, in a letter, 1611

>“I leave out of this reckoning your long creeping back and withdrawing yourself from lying in my chamber, notwithstanding my many hundred times earnest soliciting you to the contrary...Remember that (since I am king) all your being, except your breathing and soul, is from me.” (See The Letters of King James I & VI, ed., G. P. V. Akrigg, Univ. of Calif. Press, 1984. Also see Royal Family, Royal Lovers: King James of England and Scotland, David M. Bergeron, Univ. of Missouri Press, 1991)

Do I also need to cite the fact that he fucked a forty-year-old man when he was thirteen?

>>19614439
Satanic, 10 prayers to Mary for every one prayer to God.

>>19614482
>satanic
Says the rebel to Christ's church on Earth.

>>19614457
>Douay–Rheims meme
>h-he was gay
I bet you think the gun powder plot was planned by him too.

>>19614506
So you admit you do not argue against any of that and just spout memes. Nice try.

Bump

>>19612198
About 30 minutes! Not going particularly fast or slow. I use a checklist system as opposed to bookmarks, because I think they would be unwieldy. Would highly recommend the reading plan. I like the way its structured. You get a bird's-eye view of scripture and end up becoming really familiar with it over time--especially if you're using the checklist and quite literally glance at a map of the bible every single day.
https://web.archive.org/web/20131008024234/http://www.takebackyourtemple.com/files/Grant_Horners_Bible_Reading_System_Checklist.PDF
>>19614001
>Also, any advice on praying?
Rosary is good, I noticed a lot of grace in my life when I prayed it regularly. Going through the Psalms (God's prayerbook) and reading them to God is really wonderful too. There's also a very simple, powerful prayer: the Jesus Prayer.
>breathe in
Lord Jesus Christ
>breathe out
have mercy on me.
You can pray this anytime, anywhere.
Don't worry about your inner monologue not being "enough." Satan is translated is "the accuser." That is what he does: he accuses. He drags down. He denigrates. YOU are enough, anon. God is happy to speak with you because he loves you. You would be happy to speak with your child even if your child said "goo goo ga ga;" you wouldn't mind that he's not orating the entirety of Inifinite Jest. Now that's just your own love, imagine the love and mercy of God and the kind of sonship that he offers.

>>19614086
Based. This book needs to be shilled more often

>>19609579
Even back then Saint Peter received the message of God of all foods being purified by Him.
They justify themselves through pharisee ways, while also not following other rules. Jesus back then called them on their hypocrisy, the hypocrisy of pretending to follow the law of Moses while in reality they weren't doing it. Saint John the Baptist also mentions something similar about that subject.

>>19609579
These are the same Jews who think that waving a chicken over their heads on Yom Kippur absolves them of sins and fools God. They are in utter darkness spiritually

>>19610235
Well said brother

bump

>>19606405
friendly reminder to /lit/ that eternal life is the free gift of God. if you want to receive it and be 100% sure of going to heaven, watch this short gospel video anons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpOv_kvk4M8

>>19616289
>pastor
lol

>>19616289
It seems like Protestantism is concerned with keeping out of hellfire more than anything else. Sad

>>19616396
No, just the NIFB used car salesmen.

>>19615171
blessed post

>And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
>And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

bump before bed :3

Do I have to read the Old Testament or can I just start reading the new?

>>19617220
Start with the gospels. I'd say Matthew first. Careful to not get into any pitfalls.
Find a good reading plan desu

>>19613929
>Magi
>Astrologers
...
Why is it so fucking hard to do some basic research on how the Magi were actually understood back then
>Girl is demeaning
Of course it's fucking demeaning, part of the point is that Jesus spent his time with the lowest of the low of Jewish society
>Paralysis
I guess this is harmless but it feels really trite
Also, is the version going to be called
RNRSV or something?

>>19613664
So, if you read certain Psalms and a second century Judaic texts, you'd be fooled to think that there are two YHWHs
Whether they were just two gods
One God with two modes
Or something like a dyadic trinity
This was a common doctrine in Judaism until the great masoretisation when Judaism moved decisively from radical henotheism to monotheism in response to a perceived threat from Christianity and Gnosticism (a self created threat of course because it was the Jews that kicked the Christians out of the synagogues after they failed to back the genocidal maniac the Jews believed was the Messiah of the week™)
Refer to
"Two powers in heaven" by Alan Segal

How do I get over the fact that I don't believe YHWH and Jesus are the same deity? I know it's been brought up countless times, but reading the whole bible solidified that thought for me. Aside from creating the world, the OT God hardly seems omnipotent when he constantly lets his chosen people fail him and is constantly persuaded by Moses to forgive them. He really just appears as a lesser deity, akin to Moloch who appeared to be a rival more-so than a false God
>inb4 Gnosticism

>>19617942
>lets them fail him
That's free will.
>gets persuaded
That's repentance, but it's Moses asking mercy for all of them.

>>19617220
It’s better to start with the New

>>19611823
Feliz Navidad, anon.

>>19617942

>>19618289
Gnostics are so dumb, the story of Jesus doesn’t even make sense without the OT

Does /lit/ believe pre-tribulation or post-tribulation pre-wrath rapture?

>>19618341
Post-trib is the only answer

>>19619060
That's antisemitic

>>19609233
His arguments for the Apokotastasis are philosophically and logically rock solid and unbreakable (so far, at least). However, I find myself siding with the consensus of the Church fathers as it relates to hell. I accept the dogma of Orthodox teaching on this, however I remain hopefully that all will be save at the eschaton.

>>19610235
Good post. St. Justin Martyr's conversation with Trypho the Jew is unfathomably based and edifying. What a towering figure and intellect St Justin Martyr was.

>>19606405
I read the Orthodox Study Bible cover to cover last year. Have not been reading as much this time around, but have been attending the Liturgy, and focusing on specific controversial issues within Christianity. I love the synergistic view of God and our interactions with Him, as it relates to our salvation (a rejection of absolute Divine Simplicity as it has been traditionally defined). I've been dialoging with Calvanists, and therefore have been looking into limited vs unlimited atonement, predestination of the elect, justification, etc. It's been fun.

>>19619910
Should have proof read. hopeful*, not hopefully, and *saved, not save.

Do any Protestant orthoseekers see Protestantism/Reformed faith just doesn’t deal with the physical nature our bodies enough, which stems from a weakened Christology? Jay dyer brings up a point it’s too mental and intellectual. And it seems going onto being charismatic is clearly uncharted territory a step before becoming a full blown schizophrenic heretic who doesn’t have control in their faith.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2014/01/23/why-i-stopped-being-a-calvinist-part-5-a-deformed-christology/

>>19620007
I do have some problems with Reformed theology, but the thing that keeps me from leaving is the sacerdotal system that Orthodoxy and Catholicism share. I truly believe that it is wrong. It's clearer in Catholicism since Orthodoxy is fuzzier on the details, but it's the same ultimately.

I just got a KJV, are you supposed to read the bible from start to finish?

>>19620054
Read the NT first, then the OT, then the NT again.

>>19620046
Why didn’t they share a common view going against priests in the first 1000 years of church history in any of the councils or anywhere outside of just Europe like in Alexandria or Ethiopia?

>>19620125
To clarify I do not believe the bread/wine literally become flesh/blood and are re-sacrificed, and I do not believe that my salvation is dependent upon having sins remitted by a priest. That is the line I will not cross.

I think that regarding the real presence there was a gradual confusion of symbol with thing symbolized. That the ancients had a more primitive understand of what a symbol is, that the symbol 'is' the thing it symbolizes without becoming that thing in a literal sense. This in contrast to the post-medieval manner of thinking in which things must be a pure symbol which is completely separate from the thing it symbolizes, or a full literal equivalence between the two things.

Regarding confession of sin, the Bible refers to this, but in the context of believers confessing their sins to each other (James 5:16) and not as a sacramental action facilitated by a priest. I think this practice simply became corrupted early on. Baptism underwent early corruptions as well, such as people putting off baptism until their death, etc.

>>19620174
But all this being said I do think that the Reformation over-reacted against certain aspects of Catholicism. I have to go to bed though so I don't want to start an argument about it. But the things I have a problem with are not things that directly determine my salvation (such as the manner in which my sins are remitted).

>>19620174
The point of transubstantiation is that all meaning comes from God. If Jesus gives you bread and says "this is my body", then that is his body. Calling it "merely symbolic" misses the point and is a fundamentally materialist perspective. In a Catholic universe, the meaning is primary and the substance secondary.

>>19620265
You're doing the thing I was just talking about. The idea that a symbol must be "merely a symbol" or in total literal equivalence with the thing it symbolizes is a modern dichotomy of thought. The symbol is the thing but is not literally the thing. Going to bed now.

>>19620265
>This is my body, this is my blood.
>Jesus, the law of God forbids us from drinking blood.
>Well, you see my child, there is actually a distinction here from Aristotelian philosophy...

>>19620265
Jesus is literally a grape vine and a river too.

>>19620195
I think it only comes down two-three points
(Papal infallibility, co-redeemer, things that merit or de-merit justification Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism - like the brown scapular, indulgences, sacraments and others).

It’s not about organisation or liturgy. But of salvation being in the hands of God and not of any man on earth or the pope elevating himself as some kind of apostle.

>>19620174
But it’s about the body of Christ and we being partakers of that bodily nature of works with Christ in dwelling in us and in our ministries to reign and bring down the Kingdom of Heaven.

I feel as if Protestants historically and present ally taken on a too much of a passive, more “spiritual” role. Hence why you don’t hear much about Protestant martyrs, only Protestant philanthropists and businessmen who turn church building into some kind of roller coaster tycoon enterprise.

>>19620174
But it’s about the body of Christ and we being partakers of that bodily nature with Christ His flesh dwelling inside us and in our ministries to reign and bring down the Kingdom of Heaven.

I feel as if Protestants historically and present taken on too much of a passive, more “spiritual” role than bodily role.

Hence why you don’t hear much about Protestant martyrs, only Protestant philanthropists and businessmen who turn church building into some kind of roller coaster tycoon enterprise

Hence why you see so much obvious devolution of society and culture coming to pass in Protestant countries. The Word of God/Bible doesn’t substitute or equate with the physical presence and nature of Christ in the communion.

>>19612138
Sorry, I can't take Christcucks and their apologists seriously. I see you as at least 2 SDs in IQ points beneath me. Have a merry day.

>>19612138
>only words [...] is
Get off this board, you poorly educated redneck.

>reading for first time
>on synoptic gospels
jesus was kinda moe desu

>>19620470

It gladdens my heart to see more atheists telling off the religious on this board. Keep it up.

>>19617544
NRSVue. The lowercase "ue" is apparently part of the branding.

What is God's name, is it Eloi or is it Yahweh? Eloi sounds like a shared word root of Allah but they may all be permutations of the same thing

>>19606405
never read it. Is it supposed to be good?

>>19620763
Read the manga Bible.

>>19620793
Yes, they intended that to be part of the visual of the word so it could be seen as saying "View". Only the gay mind could think it to be the way to go. I happen to know an OT scholar who was on the team at first and he decided to bow out once the meetings got going. He's very serious about the Hebrew and has no interest in associating with agendas.

>>19620470
I hope that one day, anon, you will pull down your disgusting vanity. Pull it down, anon.
>>19620773
He just said "bullshit," are you retarded? Low standards I guess...

Is the Grant Horner system for bible study actually good? It seems like a lot of work. Is there a study guide that is more simple and easy to follow?

>>19620809
wtf

>>19620940
It's exactly what you think it is.

is it unchristian to care about this world? its obvious that violence and pain and suffering are inherent to every aspect of material reality, but is it unchristian to still care about animals and your people and creating beauty and making it as good a place as you can? do you really have to renounce everything to get to heaven?

God is a pawg.

Merry Christmas anons, I hope everyone has a blessed new years.

>>19619803
yeschad.jpg

>>19620797
>Eloi
Allah and this term share the same root. The basic word for God in Arabic is ‘Ilah’. Eloi means specifically ‘my God’. The -i is a suffix meaning ‘my’

>>19620763
Move heretic boy, time for real japanese art of Jesus Christ.

>>19620797
>What is God's name
Only God (Jesus) knows. Yahweh is translated as I Am that I Am

>>19621960
>>19622012
thank you for explanation

>>19620322
How does it feel to be playing the part of the pharisees who tried to entrap Jesus by saying "hah! you're not allowed to work on the Sabbath you broke the law of Moses!"?

Where to start with reading the bible? What version & do you read front to back?

Do most of you read as a religious/spiritual guide or for philosphy? Lately I have been feeling a calling to God... after a long time of disinterest or ignoring the idea.

What is a good church to visit? I have a Lutheran church on my block. I was born and raised Catholic, but I do believe God would understand our human condition & relieve us from sin, so the Lutheran church is of interest.

>>19621454
It’s not unchristian to care for the world in some sense. It’s important to distinguish various nuances of the term ‘world’ as it is used in Scripture. Not every usage is the same. Some usages of ‘world’ are in the sense we use it in everyday speech, but the negative sense of ‘world’ is the usage that refers to things that are not related to or focused on God—accumulating material possessions, serving Mammon. hedonism, etc. This is the world that Satan is the god of (2 Corinthians 4:4), and it is this world we are told to not love (1 James 2:15-16). This all has to be read in the light that even in its fallen state God’s creation is still good (1 Timothy 4:4)—it’s all about our relationship with God, and whether we are focused on loving Him and loving our neighbor as ourself.

>but is it unchristian to still care about animals and your people and creating beauty and making it as good a place as you can?
Not at all. As I said, we are called onto to love our neighbor as ourselves. This, Jesus teaches, is the essence of the Law and the Prophets, and it is also taught that one who says that they love God but hates their brother is a liar, for one cannot hate their brother and love God (1 John 4:20). God is very concerned with our social relationships with others, and our parents, spreading the Gospel to others, etc.

St. Isaac the Syrian wrote things such as this
>And what is a merciful heart? It is the heart burning for the sake of all creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons, and for every created thing; and by the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. By the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and by his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in his heart in the likeness of God.

>do you really have to renounce everything to get to heaven?
There’s physical renunciation, and then there’s internal renunciation is what I would say. Not everyone is able to go be a monk in the Egyptian desert, but they can live with God before their eyes and not be sinfully attached to worldly things which they ought to understand as ephemeral.

I only read Ecclesiastes from time to time, the rest of it is a bore and a chore.

>>19621525
Merry Christmas, anon. The same to you.

>>19622326
>Where to start with reading the bible?
The New Testament, specifically the Gospels. Matthew or Luke wouldn’t be a bad starting point. Everything centers on the cross, and the OT is best understood in the light of its fulfillment in the NT, otherwise one will get bogged down in the law sections of the Pentateuch, most of which has been superseded and rendered obselete in the New Covenant (but is still valuable because it all points to Jesus in some way via typology). But definitely the Gospels is the place to start.

>What version & do you read front to back?
I used the ESV a lot, and also the Orthodox Study Bible for its footnotes. I have never tried to read a Bible through from front-to-back. I started with the Gospels, read a bit of Paul, read through most of the Pentateuch (skimming a bit of the lawbooks), jumped to some wisdom books like Job and Ecclesiastes, and then powered by way through the historical books, occasionally reading Psalms and other shorter prophets. After reading chunks of the OT the NT has good re-read value as well.

>Do most of you read as a religious/spiritual guide or for philosphy?
Both. True wisdom comes from God. That’s the different between real wisdom and false pilpul ‘wisdom’ we often see peddled today.

>Lately I have been feeling a calling to God... after a long time of disinterest or ignoring the idea
Be sure to pray frequently. This is almost more important than Scripture. Even if it feels silly at first, it is a very good practice that will edify faith.

>>19622438
Amazing response, very much appreciated, I am somewhat turned off to exploring the bible in parts or beginning with a gospel. I say that only because I don't want to make the choice, I enjoy linear reading. Either way, this helps a lot.

>>19622326
Everybody recommends staring with the gospels first but it wasn't until I listened to this audiobook of the Old Testament in the KJV every night that I really woke up to my religious feeling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiXQmeuHTOY

Something still magical about it for me

Reading front to back is hard but doable. Try to think of it as many different chunks, all different from one another, not as a single block of narrative. At least read Genesis and Exodus, but then if you do that, it's not so hard to slog through Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers.

That's the Pentateuch done. And if you do that, you will probably at least want to read Joshua to see what happens next, as they enter the Holy Land. And that narrative stays quite interesting down through Judges and Samuel. But now you're almost done the History books, which many consider the hardest parts. It's not so hard to get through the rest. A hint: it will feel a lot less random and confusing if you use a picture like this:
https://www.bible.ca/maps/bible-archeology-maps-timeline-chronology-kings-prophets-assyrians-babylonians-egyptians-synchronisms-tisri-nisan-inclusive-accession-divided-kingdom-dates-931-587bc.jpg
Just use it to get your bearings and learn the major important kings, not every little detail. You can also look up a quick overview video for each book as you read it. Ezra and Nehemiah cap off the narrative with the return to Israel.

If you read one or two Psalms and Proverbs every day, you will get through them parallel to your regular reading. My advice: read a few chapters a day of the long (major) Prophets (Ezekiel Jeremiah Isaiah) in the same way, not as single narratives, as they are quite long and repetitive.

That's most of the Old Testament down in a week or two. If you read the minor prophets and easy fun short ones like Daniel and interesting standalones like Job and any Apocrypha you fancy, that's most of the rest.

At no point in this process did you have to read it as a solid wall of 500 pages. It was always a fun standalone book here, chipping at the Proverbs here, a mid-sized contiguous narrative (the Torah/Joshua-through-Kings) there.

>>19622465
Glad to have helped a bit, anon. Just keep in mind though that the Bible itself is a collection of many books written over hundreds of years by many different people, strict linear order doesn’t always mean as much as it would in some works. Yes, there’s certainly a line of development through much of the OT that’s worth being familiar with for sure, but even then there’s repetition of some stories, or re-tellings of some events and other things, and some books are basically stand-alone such as individual Psalms, Job, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, some of the deuterocanonical works such as the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, etc. Myself, I’ve read large parts of the OT in a loosely linear order, with some jumping around here and there, because I’ll be honest, some parts of the OT can be as dry as bone. If you’re big on reading cover-to-cover though, you wouldn’t necessarily be doing anything wrong, you might just not get to the truly deepest spiritual parts for a long while.

>>19620452
>But it’s about the body of Christ and we being partakers of that bodily nature with Christ His flesh dwelling inside us...
Our union with Christ in one body is mystical, not physical. Like in the marriage covenant the husband and wife do not literally become one flesh, but they do become one flesh. The Church is the fulfilment of marriage (Eph. 5:32) and in it we become one body with Christ, but we do not literally become his flesh; still we are one body. Christ is not here with us physically anymore (Matt. 26:11).

>Hence why you don’t hear much about Protestant martyrs, only Protestant philanthropists and businessmen who turn church building into some kind of roller coaster tycoon enterprise
You don't hear because you don't look. Here's a list of those who died solely in the English Reformation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestant_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation

>Hence why you see so much obvious devolution of society and culture coming to pass in Protestant countries. The Word of God/Bible doesn’t substitute or equate with the physical presence and nature of Christ in the communion.
I don't see much difference in what is occurring in Protestant countries and what is occurring in Catholic countries. The entire western world is falling into darkness. You can't honestly tell me that places like Spain and Italy are bastions of orthodox belief. You're just looking at the situation selectively.

>>19622214
>You shall not work on the Sabbath
>The spirit of the law forbids work on the Sabbath but does not forbid you from helping people in need
>You shall not drink blood
>The spirit of the law is actually that you can drink blood but only if the blood is blood only in substance and the retains the accidents of some other object, meaning the prohibition was not actually about blood itself being an issue but rather only the physical properties of blood
Okay

Bump

>>19620322
>trying to gotcha The Word of God
NGMI

>>19623778
>trying to gotcha The Word of God
judaism in a nutshell.

>>19623778
>>19623910
Judaism does not do that, Judaism engages in Talmudic legal wrangling like this >>19622721

>>19620265
>If Jesus gives you bread and says "this is my body", then that is his body.
Don't pretend you are interpreting this verse literally. You are actually running it through a philosophical filter. It cannot be literal because the bread is still bread, so you have to find some way to explain how the bread "is" his body while it is still bread in every observable way. You've (for no reason) ruled out the possibility that he is speaking figuratively or symbolically so you have to start applying external philosophical tools to make any sense of it.

>>19624035
>It cannot be literal because the bread is still bread
No, it is the flesh of Christ.

>>19624049
If it were literally his flesh, taking that language as straightforwardly as possible, then it would mean that the bread would lose the physical properties of bread, but it does not. Therefore you are not simply interpreting the text literally but interpreting it through an external philosophical lens.

>>19624060
You don't believing in the miracle does not change the miracle.

>>19624063
What miracle is that? You cannot read this supposed miracle into the text without engaging in the philosophical twisting I am referring to. The last thing you are doing is reading this literally.

>>19624074
The miracle of the bread and wine transformed into the flesh and blood of Christ.

>>19624078
And it's still bread and wine by every physical property. So how is it literally his flesh and blood? You can't explain it except by subjecting the text to an external philosophy that it does not present itself. This is required to interpret the text in this manner, since you have ruled out the more natural reading that does not require and external interpretive method.

>>19624088
It is the flesh and blood of Christ.

>>19624091
Explain in what sense you mean that using only the scriptural text.

>>19624095
John 6 during the teachings of the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

>>19624114
I am asking you for an explanation, from within Scripture, of how the bread is literally flesh even though it retains every physical property of bread.

>>19623998
and god really confuses the chicken for the sinner, yeah?

>Christ's flesh re-enters the world under the physical guise of bread
Is he the PIllsbury Doughboy?

>>19624140
It’s a mystical doctrine, bro, I trust Christ’s word, even though I don’t know the mechanics. It’s like asking how He turned water into wine, you’re missing point.

>>19624552
The water actually turned into wine though. It was no longer physically water but wine, so it's not the same thing at all.

>>19624552
>It’s a mystical doctrine
That's how we look at this in Reformed theology, that the Lord's Supper raises us to God to unite with him mystically.

>>19624889
You’re being filtered hard by the point. No one knows the ‘how’ of how water became wine. In the same way, we cannot say the ‘how’ of how the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ, even though it is. Christ doesn’t *just* say to do this is in rememberance of Him, He literally calls it His flesh and blood, and identified Himself as the bread that came down from Heaven. Truly this is a hard teaching, but it came right out of His mouth. To make this happen is effortless for God.

>>19624902
Exactly.

>>19625058
>You’re being filtered hard by the point. No one knows the ‘how’ of how water became wine. In the same way, we cannot say the ‘how’ of how the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ, even though it is.
You don't understand what I am saying. I am not asking about the mechanism by which a miracle occurred, as a miracle occurs via Christ's divine power. What I am asking is *in what sense* the bread is his flesh. In Catholic doctrine they say that the bread is his flesh in the sense that the substance of the bread ceases to be bread and becomes flesh while it retains the accidents, or the physical properties, of bread. I am stating that this is not something that comes from a simple literal interpretation of the text or from "taking Jesus at his word." It is the imposition of external philosophical interpretation onto the text. This is not comparable at all to the changing of water into wine, as the water fully became wine in all senses. There is no need to play philosophical games with it.
>Christ doesn’t *just* say to do this is in rememberance of Him, He literally calls it His flesh and blood, and identified Himself as the bread that came down from Heaven. Truly this is a hard teaching, but it came right out of His mouth.
His words came out of his mouth, your interpretation of his words did not.

>>19625283
(cont.) Basically what I was asking the other anon to do was to justify the actual Catholic position from the text. Not the "we just take his word" nonsense that is not true, but the Aristotelian system that they apply the verse.

>>19625283
>>19625305
He said it was His flesh and blood and the Church Fathers wrote the same thing. QED

>>19625423
>He said it was His flesh and blood
Which means what? You are engaging in a specific philosophical interpretation of his words, not simply "taking them at face value", as I have demonstrated.
>and the Church Fathers wrote the same thing.
Like here?

>The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit; for the flesh was created by Him. The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life ...
>Thus in many ways the Word is figuratively described, as meat, and flesh, and food, and bread, and blood, and milk. The Lord is all these, to give enjoyment to us who have believed on Him. Let no one then think it strange, when we say that the Lord's blood is figuratively represented as milk. For is it not figuratively represented as wine?
>Clement of Alexandria (d. 215 AD)

>>19625423
It's easy to read something that the church fathers have written and read later ideas into it, or to take something that they express simplistically (as the concept had not undergone challenge or development) and interpret a fuller theological system into it that they would not have known. A lot of the use of the church fathers as prooftexts for modern doctrines falls into this.

>>19625455
The idea that something is either strictly figurative or literal is a modern dichotomy that did not exist in the mind of the Fathers. I can easily find even earlier Fathers who make this explicit that it is indeed the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ:

Justin Martyr (died 165 AD.)
>For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Irenaeus of Lyons (died 202 AD.)
>And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a grain of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God, even the Father, who freely gives to this mortal immortality, and to this corruptible incorruption, 1 Corinthians 15:53 because the strength of God is made perfect in weakness, 2 Corinthians 12:3 in order that we may never become puffed up, as if we had life from ourselves, and exalted against God, our minds becoming ungrateful; but learning by experience that we possess eternal duration from the excelling power of this Being, not from our own nature, we may neither undervalue that glory which surrounds God as He is, nor be ignorant of our own nature, but that we may know what God can effect, and what benefits man receives, and thus never wander from the true comprehension of things as they are, that is, both with regard to God and with regard to man. And might it not be the case, perhaps, as I have already observed, that for this purpose God permitted our resolution into the common dust of mortality, that we, being instructed by every mode, may be accurate in all things for the future, being ignorant neither of God nor of ourselves?

>>19625517
>The idea that something is either strictly figurative or literal is a modern dichotomy that did not exist in the mind of the Fathers.
Yes, yes, I know. I have made that point myself in various threads. You also agreed with the post I made about Reformed theology here >>19624902. I have a suspicion that you do not actually disagree with what I am trying to say, but rather misunderstand my point. Are you Catholic or Orthodox? If you are not then you are not the target of my argument.

old testament - based
new testament - cringe

>>19625538
Can you show me any examples of successors of the apostles in the first 1000 years of Christianity that shared your view of the Eucharist? Do you accept that all church fathers who wrote on the nature of the eucharistic meal confessed it to literally be the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ? Who, from your research, is the first apostolic successor who had the same understanding of the Eucharist that you have?

boompa

Why did God like Abram so much?

Are you weeb enough to own a copy of the New Interconfessional Bible?

>>19625862
>Do you accept that all church fathers who wrote on the nature of the eucharistic meal confessed it to literally be the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ?
You've already acknowledged that they do not understand symbols in the way that we do, so I think you would have moved beyond this point, yes? The meaning of the symbolic difference is this: a simple statement such as "the bread is the flesh" does not mean a literal equivalence, as a thing can be symbolically identified with the thing it signifies without literally becoming that thing; the modern mind denies this and relegates it to mean that the symbol is wholly separate, "merely a symbol", or it demands a literal equivalence. What is required are writings that clarify, such as the segment of Clement I posted earlier that explains the equivalence is actually figurative. I note you did not answer my question about what your confessional background is, which makes me think you are not arguing with me honestly, so I'm not going to write an essay for you in return.

>>19627262
>>19625862
(cont.) You have two quotes earlier, the first from Irenaeus. You may note he simply repeats the language from Scripture and does not define what is meant by it, so it is not a prooftext of transubstantiation. The second is from Justin Martyr, which is more interesting. He states that "our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished." I checked a second translation of this as the language is strange, but it was substantially the same, but using the term "transformation" instead. Point being, he places the transformation in relation to our own flesh and blood, rather than in relation to the bread and wine, which is a strange wording. The translation you quoted, in its original source, bears this footnote:
>This passage is claimed alike by Calvinists, Lutherans, and Romanists; and, indeed, the language is so inexact, that each party may plausibly maintain that their own opinion is advocated by it.
I have to agree with that. The language, like I was speaking of earlier, has no precision that would aid in current debates. From our context it is not clear at all what he means and so the quote is not of much use.

Here, go wrangle with this one, from Pope Gelasius I (d. 496)
>Certainly the sacraments of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing. On account of this and through the same 'we are made partakers of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1:4). And yet the substance or nature of the bread and wine does not cease to exist.

I've looked up Catholic apologetics articles to see what they have to say about this, and their defense is that all of this substance language is terribly imprecise because people mean different things by it at different times. Sometimes substance means substance and sometimes substance means accidents and who really knows. What they don't realize is that this is a double edged sword, as this same problem now applies to every prooftext they choose to utilize. Sitting and wrangling over the Church fathers is, I have found, not the most productive endeavor. I suppose I ended up writing more than I intended after all.

>>19627334
A bit more on the Gelasius quote. Here's more of it, with some Latin included.

>Certainly the sacraments of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing. On account of this and through the same 'we are made partakers of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1:4). And yet the substance [substantia] or nature of the bread and wine does not cease to exist. And certainly the image and likeness of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the action of the mysteries. Therefore it is shown clearly enough to us that we ought to think about Christ the Lord himself what we confess, celebrate and receive in his image: that just as they pass over into this, namely, into the divine substance [substantiam] by the working of the Holy Spirit, yet remaining in the peculiarity of their nature; so they demonstrate, by remaining in the proper sense those things which they are, that the principal mystery itself, whose efficacy and power they truly represent to us, remains the one Christ, integral and true.

So he says this:
>the substance [substantia] or nature of the bread and wine does not cease to exist
>they pass over into ... the divine substance [substantiam] by the working of the Holy Spirit

So what does "substance" mean here? He says the bread retains the substance of bread and that the bread passes into the divine substance. He uses the same Latin term (substantia) each time. The best I can make out from this is that he thinks the bread/wine remain fully bread/wine and they represent Christ to us in a divine or spiritual sense, which would accord with Reformed teaching on the matter.

>>19626936
I'm curious, can you elaborate?
Is this just a Japanese translation of the Bible?
How is it interconfessional?

>>19608253
There's this general guide from the Symbolic World, a website run by Jonathan Pageau and other Orthodox christians who I find are overall pretty knowledgeable.

The Bible (this is a life long journey)

Focus first on the Story Books of the Pentateuch
Genesis
Exodus
Then read the Gospels in the New Testament and read them continually as you study the rest of the Bible
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Also read the Epistles as they offer some of the first and most profound typology connecting the Old and New Testament.
Go through the secondary story books from the Old Testament
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1-2 Samuel
1-2 Kings
1-2 Chronicles
Ezra, Nehemia
Esther
Jonah
To understand the most immediate patterns and images, look to the Poetic Books
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ecclesiastes
More difficult, but profound patterns are found in the Prophetic Books
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
minor prophets as well
The most difficult, but the fullest structure in the OT is in the Law, as it gives a full cosmic vision oriented towards action.
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
In the very end, the hardest book to read in the whole Bible is Revelations as it recapitulates and encompasses all of the patterns into one string of images.

Wouldn't the simplest reading of the Eucharist be that it is much like Jesus, fully divine and fully bread?
Because it's clearly bread from the point consumption to digestion
One guy in the sixth ecumenical council actually went full Zwingli and proposed a memorial reading of the Eucharist
Because all the talk of substance and accident is very Aristotelian and I sincerely doubt there are very many genuine Aristotelians around these days, even among Catholics

I have a kjv version. I've tried to read Matthew but I keep losing focus. This is a pervasive issue by the way. I have several books that I can't read because I lose focus, but the Bible, I imagine, is the most important of them. Regardless I am trying to read the new testament, guess I'll restart in 2022

>>19627498
Yes. Westminster Confession of Faith 29.7:

Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive, and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

>>19627506
It's okay to read a modern translation if the KJV is giving you trouble. Otherwise just start small and try read a chapter or two each day. You can expand later as you get used to it. The quality of reading is more important than the quantity anyway.

>>19627506
Get a reading plan. Maybe do something more striking like Job or Ecclesiastes.
I literally don't remember Matthew right now. They're complicated reads. You gotta remember every part is a literal book.
Try a reading plan maybe.

>>19627506
You can start with RSV or ESV, which are more comfortable to a first time reader. Then go back to the KJV later. There's no rush

>>19627498
Transubstantiation with the Aristotelian autism is just Catholic stuff. Orthodoxy says that it is the flesh and blood but doesn’t try to explain the workings of the mystery.

>>19627982
Orthodoxy is still in agreement with the Catholic explanation. They don't view it as wrong.

reading zechariah and there are some great propechies near the start

>>19628007
Zechariah has some of the greatest revelation of deep mystery in the entire Bible.

>>19627262
>You've already acknowledged
I am not that anon you were discussing with earlier.
> note you did not answer my question about what your confessional background is, which makes me think you are not arguing with me honestly, so I'm not going to write an essay for you in return.
I am not that anon.

Let me repeat my other questions, so you can give a good answer (if you are willing):
>Can you show me any examples of successors of the apostles in the first 1000 years of Christianity that shared your view of the Eucharist?
>Who, from your research, is the first apostolic successor who had the same understanding of the Eucharist that you have?

No essay needed, you can just list a couple of names. Also, you should note that you are attacking transubstantiation, which is just one explanation which attempts to explain the doctrine of the "real presence". The Orthodox do not believe in transubstantiation, and yet they confess that the Eucharistic meal is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is what you should contend with, the real presence, which is a teaching shared by every single ancient church - not transubstantiation, which is only a Western explanation of the "how" of that dogma.

>>19627475
>Is this just a Japanese translation of the Bible?
Yes. Currently, it's the most widely used in the country.
>How is it interconfessional?
Because it's used by both Catholics and Protestants in Japan as an ecumenical Bible, and the one published by the Japan Bible Society. It can probably be viewed as the Japanese version of the NRSV, but without the gender politics, in terms of its academic use, but also their NIV in terms of popular appeal and reach. There's also the New Japanese Bible, created by evangelicals and therefore sort of the Japanese ESV, and the Japanese Colloquial Bible, which while based on the RSV was criticized for poor literary style overall--nevertheless, it's used by Orthodox in Japan as a full Bible when they're not using the Tsugumaro Nakai translation of the New Testament.

>>19628109
I provided one here, Pope Gelasius I >>19627398 and I broke down his use of language.

>>19628109
Also this is what I believe specifically: >>19627509
I would consider that to be the real presence and in accord with our dear Pope Gelasius here. I do not hold to a solely memorial view.

>>19628204
Sounds very cool
Might consider it for moonspeak in 3 years when I'm on that level
Also
Redpill me on Japanese Christianity?
I've always thought it was least successful in Japan of the three countries of East Asia after Hideyoshi's genocidal sperg out

>>19606405
Does anybody know any of the programs used to compare language between texts to look for comparisons?
I have a very schizo theory about the gospel of John that I'd like to try out

>>19628602
If you don't actually know Greek you're wasting your time and whatever you think you come up with will be wrong.

>>19628624
Lo and behold, I actually do know greek
Try me out

>>19628627
I'll take your word for it. A lot of people try to do this sort of work without any knowledge of the subject and it always ends in nonsense, so I was just warning you in case you fell into that camp.

>>19628627
Gatekeeperanon absolutely btfo

>>19628627
But not Koine

>>19628675
Look, it's imperfect but I can read the NT mostly without trouble
Attic texts are another story but that's another version of the language
I have similar difficulties with atticising texts of the period
Even with the talk of refined language, John is relatively smooth sailing
You don't know what kind of computer programs they use for that stuff and where I can steal them from though, right?
>>19628699
Specifically koine actually
I was raised on Chrysostom's liturgy which is not the same language for sure but it is based on texts from the same language
And the school my parents sent me to had reading the NT in the original greek
It sorta went dormant while I was in my atheistic wilderness years but I've been able to reawaken it or so to speak

>>19628724
Pretty neat, lay your John theory on us.

>>19628471
Christianity in Japan is smaller than in Korea but much more dedicated. However, Chinese Christians might fight for that title with Japanese Christians due to more recent persecution. But it is correct that the old persecution and genocides prevented them from becoming more than 1% of the population today, even if their social and political influence is much greater than that.

>>19628602
The program that is commonly used by Christians is called Logos Bible Software

Merry Christmas, anons!

I've kept up with Bible in a Year Podcast w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz all year, which I'm pretty proud of, so in about a week I'll have read the entire Bible. I would highly recommend the podcast as a way to structure your reading plan along with commentary and explanations of the historical context, moral lessons, and traditional interpretations.

My biggest takeaway from the entire thing is how incredibly underrated the Old Testament is: so many people just completely miss the point and dismiss it as irrelevant, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Tons of insight to be gained, just usually harder to figure out than the New Testament and more historically focused. It's also strengthened my faith tremendously, because I am 100% convinced that nobody could have made things up to have so many connections and so much foreshadowing of the New Testament in the Old. The smartest people in the world literally couldn't have made it up to be as perfect of a fit even if they tried. Protestantism also seems even more nonsensical to me than it did when I decided to convert, you can so clearly see the parts where Luther just decided to make changes to doctrine and everything snowballed from there.

>>19629685
I only learned of the podcast after I had finished the OT and was about to start the NT, but I've pledged to use it for my next full reading.

Christmas bump

>>19620470
Nietzsche was wrong and now he's dead. Merry Christmas anon, I hope you can become less resentful.

>>19606405
Ever since I almost died back in August/September from Pneumonia brought on by Delta Covid I've turned my life back to the Lord after straying from him in 2018. I've been reading my Bible every night before going to bed. I'm starting Galatians tonight.

>>19630462
Awesome, anon! I'm glad to hear that your life sounds better now. Do you have continued symptoms from pneumonia?

>>19630436
Jesus is also dead, faggot

>>19630929
>Jesus
>dead
Jesus is risen, heretic.

>>19606405
The bread and wine are literally physically transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ

>>19628757
If anyone wants to know more about how Christians get by in mainland China (the ones who dodge the CCP approved churches), God is Red is an engaging read and not that long. The history and spread of Christianity in the mainland is something that's more obscure and not talked much about

>>19631025
Correct. All Christians know this.

>>19631025
>>19631084
It occurred to me this morning at Mass that this makes sense in the exact same way that the Incarnation does. Jesus is physically a man, and supernaturally the Son of God; you can't tell it by looking at Him, but it's true. The same happens with Jesus in the Sacrament; physically it still just looks like bread and wine, but supernaturally it literally is the Body and Blood of Jesus. They're also similar in that both required unfathomable humility from God to take on such a vulnerable form for our sake. I know that's not a new idea or anything, just wanted to share because it was a cool realization.

>>19631177
ch-checked

>>19631177
Godly sevens confirm

Is the bible actually worth reading as a fiction novel? Or is it generally too random and sprawling to be read for entertainment?

What is the best reading plan for a brainlet

>>19631253
Bible in a Year Podcast with Father Mike Schmitz. Read along using the same plan, and you get some entry level commentary on the history and context and interpretations to boot.

>>19631253
Start with the Gospels, read the Epistles, check out the Pentateuch, jump around to Ecclesiastes, Job, the Psalms, and fill in the gaps from there

>>19631244
You might like the book of Acts. It is not, however, fiction. And generally yes, books within the Bible are a little too sprawling to read like adventure novels.

>>19628325
>>19628321
So you believe that the first person in the history of the Christian church who shares your perspective on the Eucharist was Pope Gelasius? What makes you think that Pope Gelasius' opinion is superior to, for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch? Why do you think that Pope Gelasius got it right, and everybody before him got it so horribly wrong?

>tfw no an help meet

>>19628204
After some more research, I found this interesting comparison article between the evangelical New Japanese Bible (also apparently known as the New Revised Bible) and the Catholic/Mainline ecumenical New Interconfessional Translation Bible:
https://yeshua.hatenablog.com/entry/2019/04/10/110929
Throw the page into a translator and you'll find some really interesting stuff. For example, pic related from the New Interconfessional is used to highlight wordplay in the original Hebrew text of Isaiah 5:7.

>>19631568
I never said he was the first, I simply said he was an example. I've written a good deal about my thoughts on how the church fathers speak of these matters and you've ignored most of it and instead keep up with these gotcha questions, so I don't really feel like continuing.

>>19632228
It should be worth mentioning that the 1987 New Interconfessional Translation (NIT) >>19626936 was supplanted in 2018 by the Japan Bible Society Interconfessional Version (JBSIV), which is what those pics of yours are from. It'll take a while to fully replace the NIT due to how long it was around as nearly the only choice, being used by like 4/5 of all Japanese Christians, but if you or >>19628471 is interested in a Japanese Bible, go for the JBSIV. The 2017 edition of the New Japanese Bible (literally the "New Revised Version"), its evangelical counterpart, has some things going for it, but overall I'd recommend the former.

bump

>>19627490
>patterns and images
You got something on this as well?

I love Jesus!

>>19630478
Have to wait and see. I'll probably have some scarring on my lungs but that's not usual for people who've had Pneumonia. I spent 24 days in the Hospital and lost 40 lbs and am still in therapy to build my muscles back from atrophy. It's been a rough few months.

>>19636186
Sorry to hear that anon. I had asthma for years after pneumonia, but I eventually recovered. I'm sure the Lord Jesus will grant you healing. How are you doing day to day?

>>19636186
>that's not usual
That IS usual. I don't know why i didn't catch that.

>>19636743
Getting stronger bit by bit. I'm hoping to go back to work again after the new year. At least part time.

>>19636759
Nice anon! Glad that things seem to be getting better. It sounds like you're in a good spirit.

>>19636761
>good spirit.
Not really. While physically I've been getting better, mentally it's taken a toll. I've been suffering from severe anxiety ever since I was hospitalized. Near Death experience an all. It may be a bit of PTSD. Though it has dulled away a bit. But God as been helping me through it.

>>19635674
And He loves you, anon

why do the men of sodom want to "know" the angels so badly

>>19637108
ask >>>/soc/

>>19637108
They were trying to know God despite their sinful nature, just like all of us. But they made the mistake of thinking angels were God.

>>19637153
Wrong, they were just being turbofaggots.

>>19637108
I thought it was something like the people of Sodom being so far gone that they had completely forgotten the rules of hospitality, and were ready to cross all boundaries. And back then hospitality was taken very seriously

Based on the talk of it in this thread, I asked /jp/ their thoughts about this being the best Japanese Bible and the jannies nuked the thread as it just got going. I thought they were a board for Japanese discussion?

>>19634725
Search "symbolic world reading list" for the full detailed list of recommended books on how to see patterns and symbolism in narratives more clearly
Recovering A Symbolic Worldview in The Modern Age:

Pageau, Matthieu – The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis
Lewis, CS – The Discarded Image
Tolkien, JRR – Fairy Stories
Eliade, Mircea – Images and Symbols
Heidegger, Martin – Basic Writings
(Heidegger is obviously problematic for his political associations, but he nonetheless presents the phenomenological point of view necessary for a recovery of symbolism. His “Origin of the Work of Art” and “Questions concerning Technology” are very important.)
Guenon, Rene – Symbols of Sacred Science
Guenon, Rene – The Reign of Quantity and The Signs of the Times
(Guénon is a problematic writer on many fronts and I hesitated to put him here. He became a Muslim, was a Freemason and retained several ties with occult thinkers, but nonetheless his insight on symbolism and his understanding of the crisis of civilization we are facing is unmatched in the 20th century, so read with caution.)

>>19637349
They NIPPED it in the bud.

Good night guys.

>>19637499
g'night anon

>>19637499
>guys
*faggots/troons

>>19637349
The title of the board says "Otaku Culture" you know?

>>19606611
>Genesis is retarded
ngmi

I've been unbelievably horny since the other day. I feel like I'm at war with an army of succubi hell-bent on dragging me under, and sorely losing every battle. I've had intrusive, wildly perverted fantasies for hours on end and I don't know what to do against them. How do decent people not have these episodes? I haven't even browsed this shithole for the past week, so I can't blame the jezebels and other titillating shit I see on the blue catalogs for these degenerate fantasies.

>>19639223

Listen, brother:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the
authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual
forces of evil in the heavenly realms. — Ephesians 6:12"

If you think you're fighting against yourself, you'll fight yourself against yourself, and you'll lose against yourself because you won against yourself. Paradoxically you're not going anywhere.

Read that again.

But your fight isn't against your self-desires when they are overtaking you in a non-normal humanly way.

That is a spiritual fight that can only be won by calling the name of Jesus and casting out the entities that are attacking them.

>>19639223
Your body wants to reproduce

>>19639290
I am getting into the idea that this is an external force attacking me, and not something of my own - it's merely using my own lustful and depraved inclinations to destroy me. But I can only stay isolated from these fores when I stop interacting with the world. As soon as I get out the odds are so stacked against me I lust and lust like a beast for all the hot thots prowling in the streets for what's left of my soul. Why do they have to wear miniskirts and show so much skin in December? Why?
>>19639301
No no no, I am against it. Not that I hate the idea of having kids, but I think there is no such thing as raising your own children these days. Unless I go to live in some remote fuckoff village in the middle of nowhere, I would merely raise a pawn for the corporate overlords. You have to work day and night to provide for the child, so you're forced to offload all the upbringing to the machine-State, who will teach your child to be a consumer-servant. In the modern society, your duty as a parent is merely that of paying for the kid's resources. I won't have kids under these conditions. Now give me a wife and a place where I can actually raise them and I'll have an army in a few years.

>>19606611
>Genesis is retarded
Wait until you find out that it’s historical.

>>19639373
damn son
where can i get a pdf

>>19640008
filtered by Mark 10:22!

>>19640008
https://archive.org/details/GenesisCreationAndEarlyManTheOrthodoxChristianVision

>>19640246
Matthew 7:7...

>>19614019
Why do you say that? What in particular makes you think that?

bump

Bump

>>19640008
PDFs exist like the anon linked you but the scan quality is iffy at points. I had to ask an Orthodox priest to lend me a copy recently. I wish it wasn’t so hard to get a hold of

>>19640889
There’s so much I could say here that I could probably write an essay on it. The biggest thing is that Islam doesn’t seem to understand at all what the covenants of the OT were leading towards. We have a system of progressively more specific covenants, and by the time we reach David and Solomon, they are being promised a throne and kingdom that will be established *forever* through their name, and that God will be like a father to this person. This gets developed further throughout the Bible, another good example being Daniel, where the one like a son of man is given “authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” (Daniel 7.14). This is clearly a Messianic prophecy, and the Messiah will be granted unprecedented authority and power forever. This clearly seems like a more than human being, and further examples would only go to illustrate that this is Jesus Christ. Muhammad says Jesus is the Messiah, but seems to forget or not know all of this. It’s hard to say what even the Messiah is supposed to do in Islam other than to get taken up into heaven and battle the Antichrist before dying on Earth. This is nothing like the Messiah of the OT and NT, it’s a pale caricature of it, if anything. And then there is the fact that Jesus identified Himself with this very figure in every Gospel, and that He casts Himself as divine in every Gospel, especially John, and that all of the letters of the Apostles declare Him divine as well, within a short time of His death, saying He is risen and died for our sins. Islam denies the crucifixion, denies Christ is risen, denies that Christ died for our sins, etc. This alone is suspicious, especially in light of the fact that Muhammad received his ‘revelation’ through the medium of ‘Jibreel’, an entity claiming to be Gabriel. Numerous theophanies and aspects of the OT point towards the Trinity as well, so Muhammad’s unitarianism is false, and ironically there are residual traces of Jesus’ divinity in the Qur’an such as where He is called ‘Kalimat Allah’ or the ‘Word of God’, but this is totally reinterpreter. Similarly it misunderstands Jesus’ words about the Holy Spirit to mean that Muhammad is the ‘Ahmad’ that will come after Him.

It’s such a weird text.

>>19642533
It denies the crucifixion? That the event took place? That certainly is strange - even modern scholars accept it to be historical fact.

Thanks for the good post, anon. I must say I'm totally ignorant of what the Qur'an teaches.

>>19643374
not that anon, but it says that God replaced Jesus with some random guilty dude and brought Jesus into heaven. then Allah showed Jesus' followers that He was safe and sound a little later on

>>19639351
>too scared of modern society to have children

A man should not withdraw from the world lest he be defeated by it.

Get out of this mire of thought, anon. Raise your kids to be strong and love God, you will have no issues.

Good thread

Anyone know of a good king James (or maybe new king James) study bible that also includes the apocryphal books?

Bump

>>19643374
Yeah, this is what the Qur’an says in regards to it at 4:156-159
>And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
As the other anon points out, the most common explanation for this by Muslim exegetes is that someone was made to resemble Jesus and crucified in His place. This has many parallels to teachings that Irenaeus covers in his work Against Heresies. The gnostic Basilides taught that Simon of Cyrene was crucified in the place of Jesus, for example, and made to resemble Him. Meanwhile Jesus was said to look on and laugh at the Jews. The Qur’an has many sources like this that appear, especially from Syriac Christian texts such as the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, the Protoevangelium of James, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and even the Alexander Romance (yes, Alexander the Great, the pagan, is said to be an Islamic prophet). For a good intro on Islam and the Qur’an, look into the link below. Even if you’re not into Orthodoxy it is informative:
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/world/islam-orthodox-view/

>>19606405
I read the Bible every day.

>>19606664
Pleb opinion, and filtered. God is just a realist and you are just a pussy, case closed. Dial8

>>19606679
Nihilism lacks practicality; whether life has meaning or not is just the jibbering of philosophers and godless men.

The truth the the Bible gets at is that what is really happening in life, is that you have to choose sides in a battle for yourself. Just open your eyes and stop consooming philosophical gibberish.

>>19606679
The point of living is to continue to grow in love towards God and towards your neighbor. Even if / when things get worse, this is all that counts.

I've been slowly translating the book of John purely as an exercise to gain some fluency in Greek.

>>19614117
>Yeah, especially the ahadith where he goes to throw himself off a cliff after his experiences and is stopped by ‘Jibreel’ several times. Even reluctant prophets like Jonah never tried to kill themselves, they just tried to shirk their duties.
No prophet wanted to kill himself, maybe waited for the day of his death but would not actually (try to) commit suicide. Angels never invoked negative feelings except the initial fear of the supernatural some holy people have throughotu the Bible. Animals did not fear angels unless they were terrifying in appearance, such as the angel with fiery sword in the Book of Judges and the donkey.

I cannot read the Koran after I read the Bible. It is so badly written, bizarre and demonic that I cannot bring myself to do it, even for purely intellectual reasons. Figure I'll burn this book one day.

>start reading bible every morning after breakfast for like, 5 or 10 minutes
>generally good mood the whole day, content, optimistic, very productive with good work ethic, total bloomer mode
>notice on days i dont read it i feel awful and miserable, hateful, angry, just detestable and vicious

how

>>19646063
Cause Psalm 23:3
>He restoreth my soul. He leads me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
God's word is comforting and gives you a sense of direction

Don't know where else to ask.
I'm >>19645716

Long story short I'm trying to find a KJV study bible but any time I do any research on any I find I get red flags. I'd ask my pastor for a recommendation but I don't have one. You all got any recommendations?

>>19645156
>>19646159
I can answer both questions! Check out "The English Bible" by Norton Critical Editions. It has the Deuterocanonical books, notes that can actually be clarifying and helpful, and some cool essays in the back as well as excerpts from other Near-Eastern texts. Very comfy study bible.

Bump

>>19646026
>I cannot read the Koran after I read the Bible. It is so badly written, bizarre and demonic that I cannot bring myself to do it, even for purely intellectual reasons
I can relate. When I first got interested in Islam, I was very excited to read the Qur’an based on what Muslims had told me. I expected it to be a life-changing experience, a next-level book, but when I went to read it, I was turned off pretty quickly by the constant threats of hellfire and disjointed structure of the work. Still, I thought that it was better than Christianity because the Trinity was *totally* made up and Jesus never claimed to be God. Of course I was refuted by Christians whenever I said this, and as I began to grow more sympathetic towards Christianity and began reading the Bible and praying, it became as clear as day what the Qur’an was. Muhammad was duped. There’s no other explanation. I pity Muslims honestly

>>19646226
same. even if you look at islam from purely a historic level, their actions speak for themselves. islam began by unleashing horrific, endless warfare, rape and pillage, murder, extortion, and theft. what kind of god must it be that they worship? it's satan. and that black cube is the proof. islam is just satanism. what cinches it for me is taqiyyah, the concept that it is okay to lie. you dont' see that in christianity, buddhism, or zoroastrianism. jesus was unwilling to lie to the pharisees about his actions and claims so they put him to death. muslims dont value truth. for that matter, even their historians packed their histriographies with lie after exaggeration after embellishment to the point they were almost worthless. you don't need a grain of salt to read histories written by muslims, you need a whole silo full. they're completely delusioned and have been led to worship satan disguised as god.

>>19646159
Get a Church Bible Publishers KJB and separate commentaries rather than "study Bible". The Moody Bible Commentary is a good single volume one.

>>19646725
Yeah, every since becoming Christian and continuing to watch the occasional Muslim v. Christian debate, it is clear how snake-like Muslims are in their debates, and how much they twist information and lie. It has really soured my view of them. The only thing I could think of praising would be the piety, but then again this is likely pharasaical outward shows of piety rather than anything deep, since Islam works like a gang or mafia where if you try to leave your own family will kill you.

>>19606679
>Christianity

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as "Christianity", is in fact Talmud/NT, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Talmud + New Testament.

Christianity is not a belief system unto itself, but rather another kosher component of a fully functioning Babylonian Talmudic Judaism, made useful by the Gemarrah, the Shulchan Aruch and vital belief system components as defined by Moshe Rabbeinu ZTz"L at Sinai.

Many believers believe in a modified version of the Talmud Bavli without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Talmud which is widely used today is called "Christianity", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically Babylonian Talmudic Judaism, as developed by our Sages ZTz"L.

There really is a Christianity, and they are using it, but it is just part of the system they use. The New Testament is the siddur; the text that is regularly read to frame a believer's reading throughout the day. The siddur is an essential part of a belief system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete belief system. The New Testament is normally used within the context of the Babylonian Talmudic belief system; the whole system is basically Babylonian Talmud with the New Testament added, or Talmud/NT. All the so called "Christian" sects are really sects of Talmud/NT.

>>19647056
Meds

Not religious at all but every few months or so I come back to Ecclesiastes, sometimes you just feel like Solomon

>>19646226
>Muhammad was duped. There’s no other explanation. I pity Muslims honestly
Assuming he even existed, the moment he got duped by that "cave ghost" (that was actually Satan) to give false revelation and had to regather his audience and apologize for that, there's literally no reason to believe the "revelations" he had after that weren't also from Satan. Literally, "Bros, sorry I got tricked by Satan to preach falsely five minutes ago, but believe me this time when I say Jesus wasn't crucified and God has told me all these new things!"

>>19646857
exactly so. the more i study history the more i lament the birth of that monstrous war-bandit muhammad. he singlehandedly ruined the world more than marx, stalin, mao, pol pot, and woodrow wilson combined could manage.

>>19647229
Nah, the Sassanian aand Roman empires were both walking corpses that needed to be swept aside, the caliphates were historical neccesity even if yiu hate him and the religion

>>19647244
>scorns Byzantium
come fight me. suppose you prefer coal-smog-choked, shit-river, bangers-and-mash, inbred island-genetics br*t**n as the "greatest" christian civilization? seething protestant

>>19647274
First off it's not "Byzantium" but the Roman Empire still extant and second, they destroyed Italy worse than the Vandals or the Goths ever did, Islam at least has good poets

>>19647213
I have studied the revisionist accounts of Islamic history to some extent, but I can never buy the idea that Muhammad didn’t exist. The structure of the Qur’an is just too bizarre, with all of the parts that begin with “Say:” and then what was allegedly revealed to Muhammad. I have never read another work with such a structure. I think the only thing that makes sense is that some of this stuff was actually channeled through demonic whispers while some of it was lifted from various legends and sources in either oral or written accounts. Even according to Muslim accounts, people called him ‘majnūn’, i.e. possessed by a jinn, or insane.

>Another means of distressing Zoroastrians was to torment dogs. Primitive Islam knew nothing of the now pervasive Muslim hostility to the dog as an unclean animal, and this, it seems, was deliberately fostered in Iran because of the remarkable Zoroastrian respect for dogs. Probably maltreating a dog (like discarding the kusti, or spitting in a fire) was a distinctive outward sign of true conversion; and the amount of suffering since inflicted on these animals by Muslims down the centuries is a sad instance of the cruelty that religious rivalry can bring about.

muslims are demons, change my mind.

>>19647056
Go back to your containment board >>>/g/

Gouge out your right eyeball if it causes you to sin, the Word of God says.
Chop off your right hand, if it causes you to stumble, the Word of God says.
Flee from Fornication the WORD OF GOD says.
So it is better to accept a physical death by a temporary adversary than fear permanent, everlasting death of the soul by the Eternal Maker.

CRUCIFY your flesh DAILY.

>>19647489
If I were to meditate on this icon daily I think I would have a much more humble outlook, realizing what the apostles suffered

>>19630929
Oh no athiestbro....Who's gonna tell him

>live in a very liberal area
>my priest gives an extremely conservative Catholic mass every Sunday
>blasts sodomy, gay "marriage", and birth control routinely
>like 5 miles from San Francisco
As long as I'm stuck here, I'm glad to have this.

>>19647668
nice, I've heard good things about the Catholic bishop in the area. what parish do you go to? I go to an Orthodox church in the Santa Cruz mountains

>>19647694
St. Veronica's parish. And yeah, Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone is really something. And as for the priest, a good way to get an idea of what I'm talking about can be seen from our Christmas mass, where he quoted Benedict XVI four times during the homily and the only mention of Francis was at the very end when he asked God to bless "Francis our pope, Salvatore our archbishop, and all the clergy," which is a routine blessing.

bump

How do I stop feeling like I have impostor syndrome as a Christian? I have even had spiritual experiences in prayer and I still feel like a faker

>>19648650
Tell Satan that you believe and to fuck off.

>>19648655
You’re probably right that it is Satan. I’ve noticed that sometimes bizarre imagery will intrusively enter into my head during prayer, like it’s design to trigger me.

>>19648671
His method from the beginning have been to make us doubt what we know from God.

>>19647745
That's lit! I'm glad you have such a good community. Do you know if anywhere in the Bay Area serves the Latin Mass?

>>19606405
Stop. Worshipping. A. Book.

>>19649530
I know Saint Mary of the Assumption holds Latin mass the first Wednesday of every month at 3 pm, Then down in South City, there's the Mater Dolorosa, which holds it Sundays at 5 pm and weekdays at noon. Those two off the top of my head.

>>19647335
Not that anon and I basically agree, but you forget that the Goths under Totilla started the scorched earth tactic. It all snowballed from there (extremely bad weather, famine, plague, etc). Not to mention the intrigue between Roman generals.

>>19606405
I read the first page and my stomach dropped at how generic it was even if my soul hurts to say because I'm a Christian (Who somehow never read the bible but was told the stories by my family the whole life) My faith was damaged.

>>19650611
Which translation?

>>19606405
Good thread but it's close to bump limit. Someone should remake it

>>19606611
Quran is based. Bible is red pilled.

>>19606405

>>19650667

>>19651140
OP here, will do!

novus threadus
>>19652096
>>19652096
>>19652096