/lit/ - Literature

>>19552713
>they deserve help
*don't deserve help
sorry

>>19551432

>>19552713
If they let themselves get captured they probably excessively fear death, in which case they aren’t philosophers and thus aren’t worth saving.

>>19552713
For the billionth time, the Republic is NOT A POLITICAL TEXT, but a psychological one.

>>19552713
Plato's intentions in saying all of those things are hotly debated. It id about getting you to think and come up with your own ideas. In no dialogue is it ever stated "Socrates is always right always and you have to live by his every command even the ones which contradict one another."

>>19552713
It's a critique of blind rhetoric prevalent among politicians and sophists. They aren't strawmen, but are the logical extremes of rhetorical method. This requires a new method to solve, many of the conclusions are merely exemplary of the process and not the fruit. Start with the Greeks means to establish the praxis that forms the foundation of philosophical thought. One can interpret it differently but this is sufficient for a first pass through the corpus.

>>19552713
Plato AND Socrates, or just Plato? honest question

>>19552713
<21 yr old trying to dunk on a titan like Plato. many such cases.

>>19552878
Plato wrote down what Socrates was talking about so I guess I mean just Socrates

>>19552881
But what am I missing with my post? I enjoyed a lot of what Socrates has to say, his argument with Thrasmachys is kino, but these are still glaring issues with his thought.

>>19552882
Diogenes lived what Socrates was talking about and Plato was a false heir.

>>19552787
What does it mean to ban poetry in your brain? What does it mean to collectively raise a guardian class in your brain? What does it mean to convince the menial class of your brain that the guardian class of your brain is made of gold?

>>19552912
Lol. You kidding bro?

>>19552919
No, Socrates talks about doing all that stuff in the republic. I'm tired of hearing the stupid meme that The Republic is somehow a parody, or an allegory, or means something other then what it directly, blatantly says

>>19552713
You don’t have to agree with anything Plato said. The perennial value of Plato is that he got the ball rolling on many philosophical topics that we still debate today, with literary merit and a freshness and dare I say naïveté that contemporaries, specially cynical postmoderns can never have.

>>19552919
No I’m not, I’m completely serious. If it’s all a psychological allegory, then it shouldn’t be completely esoteric. The Greeks don’t like excessive esotericism, and yet it’s not very obvious what the psychological analogues for many of these points would be.

>>19552928
>means something other then what it directly, blatantly says
Oh you must be new to philosophy

>>19552713
"I've seen Plato's cups and table, but not his cupness and tableness" -Diogenes

>>19552713
midwit

>>19552939
Which other philosophers have literary merit? Nietzsche, I suppose, though I prefer Carlyle (were they philosophers at all?). Shame about Aristotle, apparently he was a better writer than P.

>>19552957
Then tell me, what was hidden in their text? What did I miss?
>>19552963
Why? Because I don't agree with certain ideas from Plato or what?

>>19552971
Start with the Middle Platonists

>>19552966
Off the top of my head, the enlightenment dudes. Rousseau won a literary prize and Voltaire even wrote plays and opera livrettos.
Schopenhauer is praised for his German prose. He wrote about writing and literary criticism.
Nietzsche regarded Plutarch highly. He can be considered a philosopher.

>>19552912
The polis->The community of ones psyche, personality, mind or soul; psychopolis
Citizens of the polis-> sub-egos, complexes, dispositions, etc.
Rulers -> Specialized sub-egos responsible for inner government; rational in nature.
Auxiliaries, soldiers -> Sub-egos concerned with protecting the ‘city’ from inner and outer threats, and enforcing laws of the rulers. These are also associated with: (1) seeking social recognition and honor, and (2) incensive passions like indignation and anger.
Artisans, workers -> Appetitive sub-egos concerned with gratifying desires, material gain, etc.
Sophists -> Sub-egos which deceive us with false reasoning, biased judgment, wishful thinking, etc.
Poets (of the bad sort)-> Like sophists, but associated with nonrational fancies, delusions, follies
Philosopher-king -> A special ruler sub-ego which seeks harmonization and integration of entire personality based on Wisdom, Virtue, and ones innate moral sense (vision of the Good)
Education of rulers -> Measures taken to develop the philosophical sub-ego(s): e.g., by dialectic, virtue, contemplation, music, etc.
Prisoners (Cave Allegory)-> Sub-egos ‘chained’ to faulty (distorted by self-interest) notions of goodness and associated false reasonings
Regimes -> Alternative systems by which psychopolis is governed
Spartan/Cretan-> Natural, wholesome following of instinct; playful, childlike, spontaneous, innocent.
Monarchy/Aristocracy -> Government by the best and most virtuous elements of ones soul
Timocracy-> Rule by honor-seeking or self-righteous sub-ego(s); may lead to over-control and rebellion by appetitive sub-egos.
Oligarchy -> Government by sub-egos concerned with material gain
Democracy -> Short-sighted hedonism; ‘if it feels good, do it’; no consistent course.
Tyranny-> Obsessive, destructive pursuit of single desire or appetite (e.g., addiction)
Men -> ‘Male’ elements of personality: logic; impersonal idealism; action and initiative; anger and aggression; the intellect.
Women -> ‘Female’ elements of personality: feelings, sensations; affections; the will.
Children -> Newly conceived sub-egos
Golden/Silver races -> Nobler (more virtuous, wise, authentic) sub-egos and thoughts
Bronze/Iron races-> Baser (less virtuous, etc.) sub-egos and thoughts
Intermarriage -> Sub-egos of differing nobility may interbreed, producing children of a mixed nature. We must test sub-egos to determine their quality, and cannot rely on pedigree alone to judge worthiness to be rulers.

>>19552966
Don't always agree with him but Schopenhauer is very witty

>>19552988
>>19552966
Jesus, what time is it? pseud hours already?

>>19552928
>I'm tired of hearing the stupid meme that The Republic is somehow a parody, or an allegory, or means something other then what it directly, blatantly says
Retarded, and I guess you think the Laches is about the value of sword fighting.

>>19552990
thats really reaching though anon. If socrates wanted to talk about tat stuff he would have talked about that stuff, you're drawing correlations that are not actually connected

>>19553008
>If socrates wanted to talk about tat stuff he would have talked about that stuff
Pretty sure he was executed for talking about stuff

>>19552988
librettos*
Rousseau also wrote a libretto AND the music for an opera
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_devin_du_village

>>19553004
>Lol plato is actually in truth about something completely unrelated, hidden in the subtext
it requires actual insanity to see, because of it's hallucinatory nature.

>>19553000
It’s time for you to go to bed

>>19553027
>it requires actual insanity to see, because of it's hallucinatory nature.
Are you talking about the Ideas/Forms?

>>19553008
>>19553027
Every Dialogues use a pretext to present you their subject, most often more than halfway through.
This is not reaching but an established interpretation taught in universities, the one I went having a aristotelico-thomist focus.

> The Republic is mainly a work on individual psychology, morals, and religion. It is also a practical work, in that Plato aims to help readers advance in these areas. We agree with Hoerber (1944), Guthrie (1986), Waterfield (1993), Annas (1999), Blössner (2007) and others who suggest that any interests Plato may have had in political science are subordinate to these greater concerns of his. As Socrates states explicitly in 2.368d–369a and reminds of us frequently, the ideal city is presented as a conceptual tool that enables us to better understand the ‘politics’ our interior life.
> Plato succeeds in this because the human psyche can, in fact, be accurately likened to a commonwealth of citizens (the city-soul analogy). Modern psychology has confirmed this seminal insight of Plato. Psychic pluralism is recognized by dozens of modern personality theories (for reviews see Rowan, 1990 and Lester, 2010; see also Carter, 2008). Different theories give different names for these inner ‘citizens’: subselves, subpersonalities, complexes, schemas, ego states, potential selves, etc.; but for convenience we may select the term sub-ego as roughly meaning any or all of these things.

>>19553033
No, I'm talking about your post that says it's retarded to look at what is written in the republic to see what it's about as compared to finding a hidden meaning you yourself impose on the work

>>19553044
That's not my post but I agree you need to be an esotericist to be a platonist since it is literally belief in transcendental forms which we only know through copies, so yes, insanity is required for you to take your [M]eds.

>>19552990
Based. Good post.

>>19553044
I'm sorry, how fucking stupid are you?
Take the Laches, the easiest, simplest, fastest dialogue to read.
It's a story about dads returning from a sword show, meeting two generals and asking them if what they saw is useful to their kids.
Where di you see the opposition between the Ergoi-Logos here, if it is not as a representation?
You cannot read Plato literally.

>>19552990
Why does he needed to use a parabol so much ? He could have just said things directly. Does platonicians say the same thing as you, that the meaning was hidden ?

>>19553123
>IN ENGLISH, EINSTEIN
god I hate americans so much lads.

>>19552881
this

>>19553130
I'm ESL, be tolerant and answer my question. The use of english is just a formality
βλάχος

>>19553123
In part because getting mistaken for a phycisist (someone who thought the Gods were allegories for natural forces) was a death sentence.
Possibly also as a form of test. Many of Plato's Dialogues are thought to be "publicity books", in the sense that they were meant ultimately to attract students to his school. Having multiple layers, such as with the Laches being about education/virtue/courage's status as a virtue/the "opposition" between Ergoi & Logos incarnated by Nicias and Laches themselves and its meaning in regards to the socratic theory of knowledge-virtue... allows to gauge the degree of intellectual refinement of his applicants.

>>19552787
how do you know idiot
are you Plato

i THOUGHT sOCRATES WAS RETARDED AND THAT'S WHY i LIKE HIM

>>19552713
>>Guys certain poetry, painting, and general art got to be banned because I specifically don't like it
This is what all censorship boils down to, we now just have mental gymnastics to justify it.
>>Guys what if we did away with the idea of parents and just all got raised as a collective?
I agree. This blatantly stood out as not only immoral, but impractical.
>>Guys we're going to get a special group of people to rule over us, let's convince them they have fucking GOLD in their blood while everyone else has silver or bronze, so they know they're superiors
This is fairly standard for the time they were in, and the time we live in now (with the exception of the golden blood part)
>>Guys if any of our own troops get captured and become POWs, leave them, they deserve help
While I absolutely disagree with the sentiment, it is a lot easier to justify this during ancient times. To rescue captives would be a massive risk of more lives that would likely not pay off.
>>Guys, I swear there exists these things called forms which. you can't see them you can only think about them, but are MORE real then the real world and they are like perfect versions of the real stuff even though that makes no sense at all in any respect
pic related
>>Guys, humans are broad nailed and featherless bipeds for sure
pic related
>>Guys I have imaginary friends tell me what not to do cool ain't it?
pic related

>>19552878
The study of both philosophers at the same time, or Pilates

>>19552787
Fuck off, The Republic IS a political text, it just so happens that in their view the laws that govern the individual can be extended to the laws that should govern the family, the tribe, city state, etc. See the Laws, they literally do the same thing. Seethe, cope, and dilate.

>I saw inside his cloak and caught fire, and could possess myself no longer; and I thought none was so wise in love-matters as Cydias, who in speaking of a beautiful boy recommends someone to "beware of coming as a fawn before the lion, and being seized as his portion of flesh"; for I too felt I had fallen a prey to some such creature.

>>19552882
The dialogues are totally unlikely to be historic documents. References in the Republic itself would almost date it to a year when Cephalus is dead.

>>19552928
They literally say that the city they're talking about is an image they're working through to make the nature of Justice in the individual soul more clear. Stop running and gunning when you read.

>>19554653
For example, book 2:

"Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the questiondrop, but to proceed in the investigation. They wanted to arrive at thetruth, first, about the nature of justice and injustice, and secondly,about their relative advantages. I told them, what I --really thought,that the enquiry would be of a serious nature, and would require very goodeyes. Seeing then, I said, that we are no great wits, *I think that we hadbetter adopt a method which I may illustrate thus; suppose that a short-sightedperson had been asked by some one to read small letters from a distance;and it occurred to some one else that they might be found in another placewhich was larger and in which the letters were larger --if they were thesame and he could read the larger letters first, and then proceed to thelesser* --this would have been thought a rare piece of goodfortune.

Very true, said Adeimantus; but how does the illustration applyto our enquiry?

I will tell you, I replied; justice, which is the subject of ourenquiry, is, as you know, sometimes spoken of as the virtue of an individual,and sometimes as the virtue of a State.

True, he replied.
And is not a State larger than an individual?
It is.
Then in the larger the quantity of justice is likely to be larger andmore easily discernible. I propose therefore that we enquire into the natureof justice and injustice, first as they appear in the State, and secondlyin the individual, proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparingthem.

That, he said, is an excellent proposal.
And if we imagine the State in process of creation, we shall see thejustice and injustice of the State in process of creationalso.

I dare say.
When the State is completed there may be a hope that the object ofour search will be more easily discovered."

>>19552966
Freud's a fantastic bullshit artist, Nabby loved him.

>>19552713
>reads the Republic once
Plato was just throwing out ideas in a lot of the Republic, he didn't necessarily convict himself to them and often he outright disagreed with them in later dialogues (this is evident in how he respects poets as divinely inspired).

>>19554067
How can you be so fucking stupid?
God I hate you cunts so much.

>>19554888
Not an argument.
Again: Seethe, cope, and dilate.

>>19552713
>Guys certain poetry, painting, and general art got to be banned because I specifically don't like it
The argument was that certain pieces of art should be kept from soldiers, e.g. if you want soldiers to be fearless, you don't exactly want them to be exposed regularly to art that makes you fear death. Again, that's only if you take it literally, the republic was not meant to be an instruction manual for society, they even say that it's ideal but unattainable. If anything it's an instruction on the individual. The idea of not looking at certain art really boils down to understanding that sometimes certain pieces of art/literature serve a useful purpose, but sometimes to call on those same pieces of art at certain points in our lives would be terrible and counterproductive, and that you would do well to think of something else. Thinking about death and fearing it for all the negatives it could be is natural and part of human nature, but it comes with the flip side of recognising death could also be something far greater than life. It's enough to make you want to lead a life that will yield rewards in death, rather than one that will make you lament the fact you have to die.

Clearly not even Socrates could think the Odyssey is bad if, even after Achilles' speech in Hades', Socrates still embraces death bravely and drinks the poisonous hemlock juice.

>>19554899
http://www.john-uebersax.com/pdf/Psychopolis-2018-02-27.pdf

> " Republic is about morals and psychology. It asks: (a) What is righteousness (dikaiosyne) in the human soul? (b) Is the righteous person happiest? The city is a didactic device: its details matter only for psychological meanings. New psychological theories support this view. "

https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3802&context=gc_etds

> "Socrates uses tripartition and agent-like parts as a ladder to help the reader
take a first look into the inside of the soul, but in the end, I argue that he leaves the
explicitly imprecise account of agent-like soul-parts behind. The person, not her parts,
emerges as the only agent of action."


https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/PsychologyJusticePlato.pdf

> "I take Professor Cooper’s project to be that of illustrating one important aspect of the
unified theory. That is, on Cooper’s account, the metaphysics of the Republic is intimately
connected to its moral psychology; properly understood, the Republic’s metaphysics dictates what the psychology and behavior of the just man (on Plato’s conception of him, at any rate) will be. On the metaphysical side, there is the Form of the Good, its functional properties and its substantive nature; on the side of moral psychology, there is the theory of justice as a kind of psychic harmony in which reason rules. "

>>19554690
This doesn't prove that the Republic is a psychological text.
Really, all it proves is that it's a text on justice (which we already knew) and that the proposals for what a just state would look like made thereafter are entirely sincere; that is, that the state they create IS what a just state looks like in their view, and that it is also deemed a convenient measure of justice elsewhere (e.g. as in the individual, family, etc.).

>>19554951
>The person, not her parts,

>>19554951
> Muh academics
Yeah no. Any psychological implications of the Republic do not discount the political implications made in the same work.
see: >>19554959
You can't just say
> well akshuwally, Kallipolis is just an analogy for the soul, don't worry about the political structure bro.
When they explicitly set out to create a utopia or just city. This is literally their vision of what's just retard.

>>19554704
i'm not reading freud. i have no interest. it's not because i'm against him; i do have an interest in reading people i don't like or agree with. i intend to read matthew arnold, for example. freud does not seem like someone that would add anything to my life. are any of his books even written to be enjoyed, outside of people with a taste for psychosexual speculation?

>>19554982
>" Not an argument. "
>" Again: Seethe, cope, and dilate. "

>>19552713
I really have nothing to say to you other than tell you that Plato was right about everything. Whether you can see that or not is your own problem.

>>19554989
You can when they aren't reflected in the Laws, which object *was* political.

>>19555008
>You can when they aren't reflected in the Laws
Except they are. Are you retarded or have you just not read Plato?

i use the term 'idea' in the following paragraphs to replace 'poetry, painting, and art' because these are just outward projections of ideas.

the sane individual will eventually come to the realization that ideas are or will be harmful to the state and, by extension, the people. plato is arguing for the people and the state which governs those people. however, he knows that the people are the same as the state and for people to govern correctly and fairly, they must be raised with these ideals.

unfortunately, ideas transmit like viruses. without exposure they cannot do any real damage. of course, ideas can be good, but the concept of a bad idea is very real because we can imagine an idea like murder or revolt or whatever else. some ideas like murder, and, by extension, revolt -- for what is revolt but the murdering of the state? -- must inherently be evil to the state, which is the people.

this is the logic plato was following, which is very much a simple and easy path to follow provided you are willing to entertain the state as a good entity.

if you ever father children, then you become the state over your people -- your children -- and you will very much come to understand the value in protecting against bad ideas.

hopefully this clears up any misunderstandings

>>19552881
Rock?

I agree with Aristotle on the importance of art but think Plato's more interesting in general (especially his metaphysics), what does this make me?

>>19552713
you are a brainlet

>>19554959
It absolutely does, especially since it backs it re-emphasizes that the point wasn't to found a political regime at the end of book 9:

"He will look at the city which is within him, and take heed that nodisorder occur in it, such as might arise either from superfluity or fromwant; and upon this principle he will regulate his property and gain orspend according to his means.

Very true.
And, for the same reason, he will gladly accept and enjoy such honoursas he deems likely to make him a better man; but those, whether privateor public, which are likely to disorder his life, he willavoid?

Then, if that is his motive, he will not be astatesman.
By the dog of Egypt, he will! in the city which 's his own he certainlywill, though in the land of his birth perhaps not, unless he have a divinecall.

I understand; you mean that he will be a ruler in the city of whichwe are the founders, and which exists in idea only; for I do not believethat there is such an one anywhere on earth?

In heaven, I replied, there is laid up a pattern of it, methinks,which he who desires may behold, and beholding, may set his own house inorder. But whether such an one exists, or ever will exist in fact, is nomatter; for he will live after the manner of that city, having nothingto do with any other.

I think so, he said."

Like holy shit, Plato couldn't be more forward about something and you wouldn't get it.