/lit/ - Literature

>>19546730
Most trans folx are part of the proletariat, so uplifting them IS class struggle.

>>19546730
Never happened
Go out more

Take your meds, touch grass, and have sex.

>>19546730
It's almost as if they're... distracted... by these subjects. Diverted, you could say. Their attention is no longer directed at economics. I wonder if economic interests are okay with this. Perhaps they're more than okay with this. Perhaps they had a hand in it.

>>19546750
Everyone laugh at the invaxx.

>>19546730
The security state has cultivated the new left with “progressive” leadership that herd them into this. There’s some who catch on and break away, but the cops/feds are always their to nab them (as they’ve already been processed by the police in useless protests)

>>19546776
>always their
*there. Damn it

>>19546730
>Why do most people on the "left" these days seem to just bitch about marginalization and tranny worship instead of actually trying to make life better for the proletariat?
because you hate-browse a very niche section of the internet left

>>19546798
It seems to be most mainstream "leftists" on all platforms desu

because in amerimutt land, the workers are so utterly alienated from the means of production that class is materially obsolete, it's a meaningless status symbol. literally only the billionaire usurers have any claim to genuine class, as they own literally everything, and thus are the only ones who support their own class interests. hegel was right, marx was half-wrong. im sorry but its the truth, leftoids

>>19546812
Where are you from?
Do you engage in and/or witness activities from local political/social associations?
Do you read multiple newspapers from said parties/associations?
Do you practice any kind of volunteering/social work/recycling/whatever?
Do you do all the above with regards to foreign/non-local parties/association in your surroundings?
Same as above but with far away situations?

Personally I try to stay informed about Rojava, Turkey, Donbass, Vietnam, Cuba, Kerala, etc

>>19546889
>local political associations
>newspapers

What year do you think it is?

Read Zapffe's The Last Messiah, specifically on spiritually-developed people.

>>19546912
>n-newspapers can only be in PAPER!
So, no answer?

>Deshabhimani is a Malayalam newspaper and the organ of the Kerala State Committee of the Communist Party of India (Marxist).
>Deshabhimani is the third-largest Malayalam language newspaper by circulation.[1] As of Indian Readership Survey of 2010, it was also in the third position in terms of readership in Kerala, after Malayala Manorama and Mathrubhumi.[3]

>>19546730
Because the leaders of the left want Teslas and giant houses and don't actually want to share with anyonr

>>19546889
>implying geopolitical kabuki theater is any less meaningless than tranny identity politics or whatever

Leftists are mentally deranged.

>>19546730
anon don't you understand? that's the entire point of "inclusivity."

>>19546730
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgR6uaVqWsQ

>>19546813
Marxian terminology is kil?
Fine. Doesn’t answer the question really.
Why are you dressing up in trip skin? Get your own name

>>19547030
>>19547034

>>19547034
>Be leftie
>still under the sway of capitalist corruption and herded around by FBI psyops
>”leffies is deranged” [votes Trump for fun]
Righties too, bitchboy

>>19546730
Because the CIA, FBI, and other spooks have been going at neutering them for as long as they've existed.

>>19546949
Ok, how about some based in America that might actually be relevant?

>>19547077
I mean, it really depends on why you voted for Trump.

>>19547093
(You) tell me, I'm not am*rican. Not everywhere is am*rica. (You) always fucking forget this.

...And this is why anything you say is irrelevant.

>>19547157
>third world commie comes to an american website to seethe at america

Pathetic.

>>19547173
>t-third world!
Is this your only argument?

G7 country, EU founder.

>>19546730

Because you beggar the question.
There has been over the last 20 years probable 200 bills introduced to do everything from fix the infrastructure, transition to green energy, police the banks, tax the thieves of wall street and put them in jail, provide better education and daycare, raise the minimum wage, support unionization, clean the air and the water, create public transportation, ...

Yet you seem to think democrats have done nothing because the republicans have blocked everything they can and run the government into the ground with bad management.

Try your tricks somewhere else. Literature is full of NPCs bad guys like you and your silly tricks, and unlike you, we read.

>>19547207
good bait

>>19547207
very cringeworthy post, fitting of your position.

>>19547207
Because you beggar the question.
There has been over the last 20 years probable 200 bills introduced to do everything from fix the infrastructure, transition to green energy, police the banks, tax the thieves of wall street and put them in jail, provide better education and daycare, raise the minimum wage, support unionization, clean the air and the water, create public transportation, ...

Yet you seem to think democrats have done nothing because the republicans have blocked everything they can and run the government into the ground with bad management.

Try your tricks somewhere else. Literature is full of NPCs bad guys like you and your silly tricks, and unlike you, we read.

>>19547207
you should leave out the last two sentences next time because it makes the bait obvious

>>19547191
Not an argument, just an observation. I'm sure your country is very relevant and we're all jealous of your rich culture, long history, and strong economy.

>>19547077
voting in the first place means you've been effectively and irredeemably psyopped

The Left has definitively lost every single engagement it has fought with the Right over the last 200 years. The trick is that the reformed Left, after their humiliating defeat, simply redefines whatever actually happened in the meantime as victory.

>Hurr durr French Revolution
>Whoops France is an Empire with an Emperor now
>oh fuck oh shit we're all dying holy fuck why are we in Russia FUCK FUCK FUCK
>Okay okay maybe the liberte equalitie fraternitie thing didn't turn out but WOMEN CAN VOTE NOW YEAAAAAAH

Every single left-wing "revolution" is like this. They gradually get blown the fuck out by Liberal Capitalism which then allows them to keep some irrelevant token bullshit issue as a concession while further cementing its own power in ways which, in previous eras would have been unimaginable.

Imagine if you tried to explain to an 18th century Englishman that in 200 years, he would be literally under surveillance every moment for his entire life, but the government would also have the right to take his children away from him AND he would be required by law to pay for state-sanctioned propaganda to be blared into his house every day.

He wouldn't have even understood what you were talking about, but while the trappings of left-wing "victory" hang on every wall, the reality is that the dominance hierarchy of the modern day has become so powerful that it can now simply declare your thoughts illegal and arrest you, and there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it.
>"buh buh we have faggot 'marriage!'"
Good for you.

>>19546730
the left is a wing of bourgeois politics. their function is to represent some partial bourgeois and petty bourgeois interests against other bourgeois and petty bourgeois interests, not to represent proletarian interests. but they're also very much "trying to make life better for the proletariat". see the Manifesto:
>A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.
>To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.
>We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophie de la Misère as an example of this form.
>The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.
>A second, and more practical, but less systematic, form of this Socialism sought to depreciate every revolutionary movement in the eyes of the working class by showing that no mere political reform, but only a change in the material conditions of existence, in economical relations, could be of any advantage to them. By changes in the material conditions of existence, this form of Socialism, however, by no means understands abolition of the bourgeois relations of production, an abolition that can be affected only by a revolution, but administrative reforms, based on the continued existence of these relations; reforms, therefore, that in no respect affect the relations between capital and labour, but, at the best, lessen the cost, and simplify the administrative work, of bourgeois government.

>>19546730
if you consistently follow through marxist thought, you will eventually arrive and trannies and coca cola sponsored rainbow parades. there is no contradiction here.

>>19546730
Marginalized folks have every reason to trust progressive bourgeoisie and managerial strata over fascist white settlers who want them dead.we have every right to deplatform fascists and reactionaries and class reductionists ensure safety for marginalized and vulnerable members of our communities. We have every right to demand the destigmatization and normalization of sex work and mental illness, decolonization prison abolition family abolition the sexual enmancipation of children and an end to white supremacy and the gender binary.

Instead of pandering to the most backward secrors of the working class we should lead the way along with the most advanced ones, black and indigenous people, and queer/ trans sex workers. Sex workers not the straight male labour aristocracy who are at the vanguard of the proletarian movemen, women and queer people taking the means of production into their own hands by refusing to perform unpaid sexual and emotional labor for white men. The real class struggle is not in factories but in womens bodies. work is a threat to patriarchy the capitalist system itself it is radically queer because it goes against the idea that sex is for the reproduction of the nuclear family and the patriarchal ideology of romantic love. Its a means for workers to take the means of production into their own hands here and now to abolish the distinction between the private sphere and the public, between work and pleasure and self expression. To break down the walls of lily white christian suburbia into a brave new world of pleasure rebellion and freedom. Yes it is true what they say about us queer postmodern neomarxists We are gonna groom all your daughters to be whores and your sons to be nympho trans sex workers.

>>19547490
IS this a copy pasta or are you actually typing this shit all out?

>>19546730
I was an edgelord industrial nazi MDE jim goad boyd rice My posting carreeer faggot before it was cool but now im thinking about becoming a progressive maybe an academic a democrat party strategist work at an NGO because thats the optimum way to be debased and inflict the maximum possible amount of mkultra trauma based mind control buckbreaking . All the while monopolizing the moral high ground and killing off any chance for 'proletarian solidarity'(the gayest most idiotic thought imaginable, why even pretend to be 'post left' and argue with trannies on twitter if you can get to buckbreak the trannies yourself, i mean they are already pretty buckbroken but one always has to make sure) . I get off to the thought of reducing human beings to nigger cattle, destroying any semblance of an independent personality so they can be rebuilt in the image of the cult.

>>19547246
Democrats care more about controlling and exploiting their base as nigger biopolitical clientele than about defeating republicans. If they started winning too many elections they would have to make conscesions to the base

>>19547530
Staggeringly based

>>19546730
because there is no such thing as the proletariat. Marx was a Jew and Jews operate cladestinely in host nations to disrupt them from within and create artificial categories in order to turn society against each other while the Jew profits from the chaos.

>>19546730
There is no proletariat in first world countries

The "proletariat" in western countries are all conservative lmao, all of the Commies and Marxists are upper middle class overeducated faggots living in California, why would they fight for people they hate? They only care about further the interests of trannies and niggers to feel like they're still fighting oppression

Everytime I meet a Western Communist I want to kill them. They talk down to me when my grandfather was shot by the NKVD and tell me "it didn't even happen plus if it did he deserved it for being a fascist". I think if I ever meet antoher one i will just kill them. I want break their jaw and kill them in front of their faggot friends. I will stomp on their throat until its bloodied mush and then I will cutr their ears off and make a necklace. I want to kill all of them. I don't even care about politics, but these assholes have got to be exterminated to the last tranny

>>19546730
What proletariat?
Oh you mean the actual poor working class that is largely right leaning?
This is why the whole idea that Marxism is a leftist ideology is inherently ridiculous.

>>19547606

Must be sad to be this pathetic....

>>19547606
Holy based

>>19547606
Virgin supporting violence against political enemies chad supporting violence and war and genocide as ends in themselves as expression of the one eternal truth the forcing the will of the strong upon the weak.

The only online leftist worth anything is Haz from Infrared, the rest are either boring academics or virtue signaling leftoids. He not only read marx but mastered Hegel.

>>19546730
Exposed by Miles Mathis.

http://mileswmathis.com/marx.pdf

>>19546755
This.

It all happened after May '68 in France. The CIA redirected the theorists on cultural issues ( yes the pedos ) and furthered divides within the parties. Ever since we have been cucked. The New Left is a cancer that we must get rid off.

>>19547675
>Le CIA!1!1!1!
Kys. If your entire movement was so easily swayed by an incompent alphabet agency then it was shit and full of gullible retards in the first place.

>>19547530
post nose

>>19547675
What is the proletariat if not the eternal cuckold of history? Have you talked to any actual proles? They are dumb as rocks and fully deserved to be exploited and throd upon by capitalism. The true ubermensch is the bourgeoisie libertine leaching off the blood of the third world partying like the marquis de sade backing pedophile lgbt identity politics and gladio nazi ops alike just to drive the proles insane.

>>19547675
virgin conspiracy theorist, spends hundreds of dollars on dubious books about JFK and alleged CIA drug trafficking filled with old soviet or la roucheist propaganda, not really that different from a Qanon boomer antivaxxer, obsessed with edgy interwar fascist authors like celine or junger, shitty neofolk bands like death in june, the ''comedy'' of million dollar extreme, will deny being a white supremacist and claim he's still a marxist, decidedly neurotic, has likely been radicalized by misinformation produced by foreign powers like russia or china. too much of a coward to actually fight for his country, went to shitty state school, will never write the great american novel

v chad neoliberal ubermensch, blue blooded WASP, reads jonathan frazen and ben lerner(how ironically is anybody's guess) MFA from exclusive liberal arts college in new england, spends time off from q clearance beltway job writing papers on shepard fairey's hope posters as prime neoliberal reappropriation of totalitiarian art and the state department's postwar role in consolidating affect theory and the anthropology of gesture as research agendas, chuckles sensibly to NPR approved comicos, and jams to indie rock of the 00s(''fake empire'' by the national bo's campaign song in 08), is proudly and openly Gay, checks his white privilege and rejects toxic masculinity(but is also a combat verteran with over 20 confirmed kills and headshots in the second gulf war) knows marxism is a totalitarian ideology comparable to nazism. Believes it is america's world historical destiny to promote proper standards of mental health and intersectional justice everywhere.

>>19547675

...says the cancer of the tired old right that has been incessantly whining how unfair the world is that it doesn't respect their importance since they first lost the power to keep power by force to the much more powerful system of agreements and cooperation that made their violence moot.
It's like a toddler with colic. When will the right wing just shut up!
You lost! You are losers! Smarter, more organized liberal social systems work, and instead of changing and growing up, you cling to the sad world of violence and pouty tantrums, and crying for your butt daddy and lying to yourselves, and petty games of the social misfits.
Jesus, Have your civil war already so we can pay immigrants to cut you from the herd.

>>19547675
i dont think so, the cia had already won and identity politics are just the coping mechanism
like the nazis who knew they couldn't fight their real enemy so they invented one they could

>>19546730
The proloteriat only exists if you use Marxist jargon. In reality - its just solipsistic bullshit.
>>19547644
He's a really retarded Stalinist, and I hope he gets hit by a car or whacked one day.
>>19547606
>Everytime I meet a Western Communist I want to kill them. They talk down to me when my grandfather was shot by the NKVD
Yeah I want do the same to those faggots too.

The current Left was invented after Occupy Wall Street to stop any threats to private capital. It's painfully obvious.

>>19546730
Leftist outrage was redirected against trifling social issues instead of economic ones. That gives corporations and wealthy elites something to hop on board with, and pretend to be working alongside progressives.
“What do you mean you’re going on strike for better wages? What do you mean you’re slaving away your entire life and ruining your bodies and souls to pay for our shareholders’ yachts? Look, look, we just hired Black Excellence (tm) and girlbosses! Look at our cool float in the pride parade! And we’re doing diversity training this week; it’s your duty as a citizen to be on board. See, we’re on the Right Side of History (tm), just like you! What were you angry at, again? Oh, let me guess.. the latent systemic white supremacy in corporations like ours? Well, why didn’t you just say so! We’ll bring you on board to abolish whiteness in our company! Of course you think it’s a good idea, we’ve been pushing this agenda in the news, on social media, in the universities for years now!”

>>19547705
>>19547729
the virgin ironyposters

>>19547879
The year is 20xx you have been ordered by your local globohomo comissar to attend a state sponsored screening of star wars XXVIII: avengers assemble. On the way there you pass by the daily george floyd memorial pride blm mcdonalds parade a fabulous twerking troupe of boy catamites followed by the phallic missiles of the lockheed float.missiles set to launch at midnight (mercifully) wiping the human race off the Face of the earth.when you arrive at the theater, bill nye, the science guy and alexandra ocasio cortez strap you into a chair forcing your eyes open clockwork orange style, the screen flickers on instead of space adventures or superheroes the audience is treated to what looks like blurry slow mo vhs footage of a pack of bluehaired fat positive queers raping an innocent white child intersped with blipverts for the latest techproduct. The braindead leftists in the audience chant YAS KWEEN SLAY at what they cant help but see as a beautiful and heartwarming display of diversity and progress. The queers start ripping appart the child and feasting on its bloody entrails like rabid hogs at the through. You sit on the front row and think: "gee i shouldve joined the alt right before it was too late"

>>19547857
>The current Left was invented after Occupy Wall Street to stop any threats to private capital. It's painfully obvious.

>>19546813
>the workers are so utterly alienated from the means of production that class is materially obsolete
This is a bait at best. At worst, you've only thought about this on a extremely superficial level, now cobbled together a string of marxist terms, and hoped for the best. Either way, I implore you as a brainlet to shut the fuck up.

>>19546755
Someone post the explosion of politically correct word usage directly following Occupy Wall Street

>>19547857
Imagine thinking being a threat to people making money and being successful in life means your movement is good. How fucking stupid are you?

>>19547917
Extremely asspained /pol/yp who can't handle the truth detected.

>>19547930
>>19547857
Beautiful

>>19547917
supportign international finance and usury is tranny tier

>>19547879
corporations aren't a single cabal, they do this to increase consumer trust and gain competitive edge. that's where the power is now, not worker rights

>>19547932
>wall street kikes
>people

>>19547940
Even if that's what happened, the fact that it was so easily coopted means that it wasn't very serious to begin with, or that it the movement was filled with easily swayed retards only looking for their next hit of fighting the power filled serotonin.

>>19547930

>>19547441
you're so close to understanding that liberals are not leftists, if only you had a faint touch of self awareness

>>19547675
more like there was a massive "boom" in population and it turns out they are all entitled and disagree with each other about what went wrong. the left holds massive sway in society now, does it not? was this the cia as well?

>>19547857
given that leftists have been into the social justice shtick for as long as leftism has been around, it seems more likely that occupy wall street ignited a bunch of jr activists and when the movement collapsed due to having no concrete premise or direction, all of them started attaching themselves to other causes

>>19547530
You're going to work at your uncles hole in the wall accounting firm and file tax forms for middle class families or something equally unprestigious and unremarkable. Nice fantasy you have there though.

>>19547917
Tfw no qt tranny gf with high functioning autism who gets off at being degraded as a retarded faggot during sex. And then tales turns degrading me as the retarded faggot.

>>19547441
all politics is bourgeois politics - literally democratic republicanism began with the middle class. it isn't close to being erased so it's a battle over their middle-ground sensibilities in a way where they can express politics without embarrassing themselves in front of other bourgeoisie.

>>19547606
I would literally just laugh in your ugly face if you said any of this to me irl

>>19547987
>given that leftists have been into the social justice shtick for as long as leftism has been around

Leftists have always had a rhetoric about caring about the have-nots in society, but there's a pretty big difference between leveraging that rhetoric into creating something like a welfare state(for example), and doing something like pic related.

Scratch a progressive cause today, and you just find a jobs program for elite aspirant out of work humanities graduates, you don't find any genuine will to represent the interests of working class people.

>>19547857
huh was it invented by the same people who incited riots for political gain last year?

>>19548000
And I would just kill you

>>19547857
People start scapegoating in times of economic instability, go figure

>>19547821
>like the nazis who knew they couldn't fight their real enemy so they invented one they could
I don't think that's the case. Anti-semitism was very prevalent in Europe prior to the nazi party even existing.

>>19548018
Yes, you are very strong and powerful! Do you feel better yet?

>>19548023
It's not scapegoating. It's divide and conquer.

>>19548004
Obviously all that money isnt going to niggers or working class people (aka uppity niggers in need of further buckbreaking). And thats a good thing too. Because Much like jesus christ, woke is a trick on niggers. Back in the day it made sense to tell your niggers to work hard and be self reliant and value family and believe in the christian lie. Nowadays if you want to get your moneys worth out of a nigger you need to buckbreak them stuff them full of fetanyl and corn syrup and make them whore themselves out

>>19548004
nah you are beyond delusional, there really isn't a difference, as long as there has ever been an actual threatening popular leftist movement, its ALWAYS been about leveraging the struggles of working class and "under privileged" people to create a new power structure with the "right" people in power. the moment marx realized his class war wasn't inevitable and he started subverting SDP and every communist movement was forced to start trying to make their own "ism" in order to make some sort of functional brainchild of marxism, it was over. you are genuinely mentally retarded if you think the "dictatorship of the proletariat" was ever going to play out any other way

>>19548044
So racism was invented by the NYT?

>>19547966
some liberals are leftist, some are centrist and some are right-wing even. liberalism is the basis of the entire bourgeois ideology. different factions just emphasize different aspects of it depending on the particular interests they represent within the bourgeoisie and the middle classes.

>>19548055
>there really isn't a difference

Of course there is. A welfare state that taxes people to pay for retirements or to pay for childcare and so on aren't just cynical ploys to "put the right people in power", they are policies that actually help people who are in low-paying jobs.

I am so fucking sick of people trying to explain why Leftists became obsessed with identity and liberal morality by suggesting they were “subverted” by greater powers like the CIA or Wall Street. Leftists support this stuff more than they care about political economy out of sincerity. This is genuinely what they believe; pronouns, skin color and hormone therapy are more important to them than proletarian organizing or revolution. This is not out of any kind of conspiratorial plot to destroy the Left, this is simply what the Left is now. The era of Marxism is over and the slave morality at the heart of Leftism is fully dominant.

If any of you pussies that try to cope by saying the Left was taken over by subversive forces, try saying that to 99% of leftists today and they will call you a fascist. Stop excusing their incompetency.

>>19547925
im right tho

>/lit/ - Politics

>>19548078
I don't disagree with what you say here but I don't think that your claims are mutually exclusive at all, FBI can be involved in psyops even if you think leftists were originally slave-morally retarded.

>>19548073
They range from centre left to centre right. Of course you're going to have some performative radlibs who don't actually have substantive opinions on anything and only want to appear as though they're radical and woke. Under the surface they too boil down to being a run of the mill centre left liberal.

>>19548078
The reality is that leftists cant fight or advocate for communism using Marx's own economic theories without looking stupid. He wrote the manifesto and capital whenever there was child labor and people working and dying in factories on a daily basis. Now the average person can live comfortably and has all of the benefits of worker protections, unions, etc. they have access to iPhones and decent cars, social media, entertainment, etc. The working conditions that supposedly inspired Marx to create his ideology in the first place no longer exist in the West, that's why they had to move on to identity politics.

>>19548078
increasing participation is both impactful on political economy and the lynchpin of classical liberal thought. it's not really a "weak marxism" even if they're telling you on twitter to read marx - they haven't read marx either

>>19548109
>has all of the benefits of worker protections, unions, etc. they have access to iPhones and decent cars, social media, entertainment, etc

Exporting those conditions to China and Africa doesn't mean they went away anon. That's just NIMBYism.

>>19548100
It's all downstream from the ideals of the French Revolution

>>19548078
why not both

>>>19547932
>>wall street kikes
>>people

>>19548121
I know you think that you're saying something meaningful here but you're not.

>>19548120
>Exporting those conditions to China and Africa doesn't mean they went away

That's exactly what it means for people in the west.

>>19548120
True but in the West there are no conditions which resemble anything close to what existed in Marx's time. Commies can whine till the cows come home about muh working conditions and sweatshops in India and China but the reality is the average person (including the average self righteous leftist) is going to keep buying iPhones and smart watches and living in a nice first world capitalist society with a high standard of living.

>>19548093
/pol/ is a garbage schizo board comprised of people who get their politics from internet memes. it’s perfectly legitimate to talk political philosophy on /lit/ when people like Marx are the most influential writers in modern history. some threads on this board about liberalism and leftism have better discussions than most major sites on the internet.

>>19548075
...and the modern social justice leftists are literally crying for exactly the welfare state you are describing
youre literally just proving my point, there is no difference.

>>19548149
>but in the West there are no conditions which resemble anything close to what existed in Marx's time

Sure there is. You just don't give a shit enough to look.

>>19548075
>policies that actually help people who are in low-paying jobs.
youre looking for fascism, not leftism

>>19548158
No, modern social justice leftists are crying for a jobs program and a removal of their college debt. They want to get paid a 100k a year to talk about how the West is a cishet patriarchy, they don't give a shit about anyone else but themselves.

>>19546730
We've advanced beyond the traditional industrial society into a post-industrial one. Every Western worker is an aristocracy of labor too detached to compose a proper proletarian class. This is why the only serious socialist movements are in third-world countries where their cheap labor is used for the benefit of the first world. If you meet a "socialist" from a Western country, you should just remind them to keep up with their dilation. Occultists and the dissident Right are the only Western groups I've seen that have shown even the capacity for intellectuality. Even the neoliberal elite are almost braindead because of how strong their narcissism is.

>>19548138
actually, don't we agree? were you saying that those that we see as far-leftists are really center-left?

>>19548178
i really dont know what to say to other than that you are objectively wrong, and that its weird the guy arguing against leftism has to tell you you are operating on a retarded /pol/ strawman idea of modern leftists. the hottest modern leftist talking point is being against the entire concept of work, its about your ultra gigga welfare state on steroids.

>>19548167
Not on any large scale which necessitates or inspires a worldwide revolution. Face it, the world is better now for the average low income earner, Marxism will never win. It will only exist in poor countries until they too increase their standard of living and then it will die out entirely or morph into identity Marxism like it has in the West.

>>19548186
/Thread

Leftists are obscenely decadent because they have no plan anymore. They cannot decide whether they want to reconcile with Liberalism or try and create an alternative to the system, which would require lots of violence and organization to accomplish. Communist countries took this path in the 20th century; 15 million people died in Russia because of the civil war and revolution alone. But nowadays, most people have embraced the structure of Liberalism and our politics are designed as a way to perform maintenance on our political economy. Leftists can achieve everything they beg for materially — we can have better healthcare, higher wages, less working hours, more unions, less climate pollution, etc. But even if they accomplish all that, you’re still left with a fundamentally liberal capitalist system. They aren’t discussing violent revolution or the abolition of private property, they literally just want to make our current system more tolerable. As for their social views, they unambiguously just accept the most basic features of liberalism. It’s not even remotely threatening to the system.

Leftists would achieve more short-term goals if they surrendered their fake radical aesthetic and just organized to refine the system, which is what most of them basically do anyways. But in the end they will never be satisfied with that because leftists ALWAYS must be the oppressed, the downtrodden, and the inferior. They always must be the rebels who critique all that exists, and for that reason they’ll still keep LARPing as revolutionaries even as they never accomplish anything.

>>19548210
Anon, I am not objectively wrong. College debt relief is literally obsessively talked about by people like AOC and Rashida Tlaib. It is in fact one of the most expensive things in their so-called Green New Deal. These people are engaged in an aggressive class war, and the war is against working people.

>>19548152
>/pol/ is a garbage schizo board comprised of people who get their politics from internet memes
/lit/ is different from this how?

>>19548216
Anon, just because my analysis is Marxist, doesn't necessarily make me a revolutionary. In practice I am a populist. In politics I will vote for whatever policies help the vast majority of people, instead of policies that help small groups of elites, that's it.

>>19548198
The people I see as far leftists are actual communists who read marx and have a sober analysis of society from a class perspective. The far leftists you see and described in your initial post are radlibs who hijack communist jargon and aesthetics and will even decry capitalism and billionaires and make hollow demands like "tax the rich!". But primarily, they are bogged down in idpol, and because of this, the democrats become their vanguard because they appeal to all of that bullshit.
So yes, marx was entirely correct.

>>19548246
lol what year is it, early 2020? of course they are engaged in an aggressive war is against working people, leftists have ALWAYS been waging war on working people and their values. the second leftists touch power they strip working people of their property, their religion, their values and their way of life, and throw them on a communal plantation/factory and appropriate everything they produce to fuel their welfare state. leftism is fucking evil to the very core my dude, if you actually care about dialectical materialism and the working class you would know that fascism is the only real heir to pro-worker sentiment, and leftists and liberals love teaming up to destroy it.

>>19548100
no, leftoids are all liberals, all the way to anarchists and tankies, the former representing an idealized version of bourgeois order and the latter representing the particular strategy of carrying out capitalist transformation for countries that had to wait until after WWI for that

>>19548286
>and make hollow demands like "tax the rich!

AOC wore a "Tax the rich!" dress at an event where a single seat cost $30000. It's literally a parody at this point, these so-called leftists are laughing in everyone's faces.

>>19548302
The Twitter mob excuses for that dress and event were so fucking hilariously sad lmao

>>19548296
>leftists have ALWAYS been waging war on working people and their values

No they haven't. That's just something you say because you're against leftists on principle.

When left-wing movements in the early 19th century agitated to abolish child labor and institute a 7.5 hour work week they didn't do this to shaft workers, they did it to help them you moron.

>>19548297
You have the same fundamental misunderstandings of someone that doesn't actually read marx or lenin. I agree that anarchists are really just liberals, but not for the reasons you describe since they're not informed by theory.
>>19548302
Exactly, you get it now bruh. Hopefully that marx passage makes a bit more sense now.

>>19548308
jesus christ you are so dense...... modern leftists are STILL pushing for liberal reforms like increased taxation on the rich, easier access to housing, education, and healthcare, better work place regulations etc, precisely the way you are describing, and just like before, these liberal reforms are STILL vangaurd for greater leftist ideological goals, ie the abolishment of private property and muh stateless classless society where the workers own the means of production", and those greater ideological goals are STILL nothing more that a way to manufacture consent for a population to either become enslaved or devolve into chaos

>>19548308
>left-wing movements pushing for improved working conditions

Revisionists! Economists! Workers do not need cushions on their chains!

That's Not Real Communism™.

>>19548372
>these liberal reforms are STILL vangaurd for greater leftist ideological goals, ie the abolishment of private property

Lmao no. Just no. You need to update your ideology software boomer, the Cold War is over.

>>19548424
...so what the fuck are you even arguing then???? you're just a liberal false flagging as a disgruntled leftist?

The problem with being a smart person on the left comes down to race realism and the jewish question. If you seriously understand the validity of either of these two concepts, you almost automatically shed much of the most idiotic dogma they cling to or hangups about criticizing liberals. I actually attended Occupy and now I'm affiliated with white nationalism, and I'm far from the only one.

>>19548339
>You have the same fundamental misunderstandings of someone that doesn't actually read marx or lenin.
Nobody gives a fuck what these people say because its just propaganda. You're literally just differentiating people by what trash they consume. You're all garbage regardless of its Lenin or Marx. We know what your ideas do to the people in practice - it murders and starves them. The idea that reading a book changes that fact is ludicrous. You people are animals who have no right to walk this Earth.

>>19548445
>Populist retard who was a part of a populist moment is still a populist retard
Nothing really changed - you're just beefsteak nazi. Populism is a cancer. It creates subhumans like you.

>>19548339
>this is an ideology for the masses! for the worker!
>that you cannot possibly understand or discuss unless you've read these huge and dense 150 year old tomes that describe 19th century industrial economies
lol

>>19548436
>you're just a liberal false flagging as a disgruntled leftist?

That's literally what I am saying people like AOC are. Fucking pay attention to what people are saying or stop responding sperglord.

>>19548445
I think it really comes down to nationalism vs internationalism and the actual values of working class people. i really dont think you can claim to care about your people if you are an internationalists who thinks your communities are meaningless "social constructs" and should be a buffet open for everyone to plunder.
leftists have come to basically despise working class people and their values outside of urban service industries. they seem to unironically think they are doing everyone a favor by burning down their local church and usurping all the farmers land and enslaving everyone on a communal farm/factor, unless of course you think its ironic, and that leftists are just plain evil

>>19548465
Noooooo the intellectual elite will guide the ignorant masses to utopia don't you see? They just need to give us all of the power in society and hope that we don't abuse it

>>19548235
based post

>>19548468
why the fuck did you even bring up AOC? this conversation was never about fucking liberals like the democrat party in the first place. \myu confusion stems from the fact that your post, mainly this one >>19548075 make no fucking sense at all in the context of this conversation

>>19548473
Internationalism is just another avenue that sucks leftists up into the universalist liberal humanist mind-prison. Anti-nationalism devolves into denying the existence of inherently different peoples, it's a total folly.

>>19548475
One of the biggest problems with Marxism is the fact these idiots believe theorists have the best intentions in mind for people instead of themselves and their own communities. Instead, these mediocre humanities majors will speak as if they speak for the majority of workers when they don't and never will. When Marxists come to understand this - they will use nothing but violence and bloodshed to get their way. They really are just the retarded people ever who reject human agency.

>>19548339
>You have the same fundamental misunderstandings of someone that doesn't actually read marx or lenin.
no, Marx and Lenin had the same view on leftists and spent most of their lives fighting against leftists

>>19548487
It does make sense in the context of this conversation, you just don't agree that there exists policy that help the working class at all. I am saying that AOC and woke left-wingers in general just feign being leftists in order to morally blackmail the government and billionaires to get money for sinecures, and that they don't give a shit about anything else, and you say that this is always what left-wingers have been like and even if that's true, so fucking what? It changes literally nothing.

>>19548475
this but unironically. this is why liberty and democracy are bullshit. the people do not know what is good for them.

Because leftists don't give a shit about the working class: never have never will.

>>19548524
Democracy is literally the mob saying people don't know what's good for them. It says the majority knows over the individual. That's just wrong, and that's why democracy has to go. Communism is just a more cancerous form of democracy that makes the mob bigger, making even more degenerates have their voices heard. That's why democracy has to be suppressed. There is no liberty when there is a democracy.

>>19546730
ideology, capitalist realism

Everyone please go back to /pol/. stop making this place gay and retarded.

>>19548553
>Isn't a leftie/neolib echochamber like every other place on the Internet
>Le go back to /pol/ !1!1!
Kys

>>19548540
I don't know if it's necessarily a "mob" as it is a majority, but I agree that it doesn't make sense that something is right because 51% of people agree with it, but we obviously don't really have a democracy and even if we did, peoples minds are controlled anyway, so it'd be null. I don't agree with communism because its a materialist ideology and our problems are primarily social/spiritual.

>>19548512
it has nothing to do with intentions. the theory speaks for itself. if it doesn't advance the interest of the proletariat, then even the best intentions of the person expressing it can't change that, and if it does, then even the worst intentions can't change it.
majorities don't matter either. the majority of the workers can act against their class interest, which is actually the norm in bourgeois society. but the workers are also capable of acting in accordance with their class interest and of abolishing this society with their own hands -- which is, by the way, a statement of a complete affirmation of their human agency.
>>19548553
implying this board isn't already full of utter garbage

>>19548572
We do have a democracy. Democracy isn't a static thing - its a scale. Our system has become more democratic over time as women, blacks have become more able to vote along with the fact we can even now directly elect senators - that's why its so decadent. The solution is to suppress democracy and make ineffective. How do you do that? You balkanize. You make it harder to vote. You make people question election integrity. You attack the vary notions of democratic governance by questioning why people of lower intelligence and productivity should have a right to determine our destiny.

>>19548524
that's the beauty of democracy actually, that it is ever changing

>>19548372
other way around. the marxist rhetoric is the vanguard for greater liberal goals. people are less radical when they are comfortable

>>19548235
that's not really exclusive to leftism

>>19548600
>You make people question election integrity
this is the only based thing Trump ever did. too bad every cuckservative is right back to trusting elections after that faggot won in Virginia

>>19548520
>you just don't agree that there exists policy that help the working class at all
what the fuck, where did you even get this from? i never in any way stated this, i stated that leftist ideology is ultimately harmful to the working class
> am saying that AOC and woke left-wingers in general just feign being leftists
does AOC or other democrats even feign being leftists like you claim? i was under the impression that they held themselves as liberal reformers
>and you say that this is always what left-wingers have been like
i said that leftism has always inevitably been a tool of creating a new power structure with different people on top, and this is historically true. actual leftist ideology is a broken self defeating scam, it doesn't matter how many liberal reforms leftists support.
>so fucking what? It changes literally nothing
the difference is between actually supporting policy that actually enables working class people and their values vs pushing deranged leftist ideologies that destroy the lives of everyone around them and either collapse into chaos and eventually revert to capitalism or usher in a complete totalitarian state monopoly

>>19548615
eeh, in most modern western nations, sure, but that hasnt always been the case historically

>>19548627
>pushing deranged leftist ideologies

Yeah and you're a retard because there's nothing deranged about having a welfare state, a retirement fund, sick and parental leave, or a whole host of other things that specifically help people that are working class the most. Literally most countries in the West do this with the exception of the United States.

The fact that you literally can't separate between the most milquetoast social-democratic policy and full on totalitarian Marxist-Leninism just shows what kind of sperglord boomer Reaganite you are.

>>19548624
It's not, this decadence is the defining feature of our era in history in general. This is a thread about Leftism though and so it's especially applicable to them.

>>19548588
>it has nothing to do with intentions.
It absolutely does. Socialism is a form of enlightened slavery. It is the opportunistic weaponization of the lower classes, using their resentment as a battering ram to enforce the rule of an elite few. The point of Marxist sociology is to provide a smokescreen to lemmings to ignore fact that class distinctions, and hierarchy, are the natural results of genetics and evolutionary biology. Communists use Marxism as an alibi, diversion tacit to cowardly ignore the fact that the majority of people who are workers are destined to be workers because they lack ability to do anything else with their life. Class can never be abolished because men are inherently unequal by their nature, and that will lead to a specialization of labor that benefits some over others as their capabilities limit their potential. To call for something , like the establishment of class, stupid would be disastrous as you would have literally make humanity instinct for it to be possible. You people let morality, your emotions get in the way of reason.
We have the receipts of the dead for when Marxoids put their unnatural beliefs in practice. You can't play nature or god - no matter what "theories" you have. The laws of nature are independent of your idealism. That's why there will never be a socialist, or a communist, society, and with the limited time we have - it would be foolish to waste on our time attempting to push our way towards it.

>>19548651
holy fuck, you are literally just a liberal, this is where the confusion stems from, opting for a capitalist state with social welfare and retirement funds and miscellaneous liberal reforms like that does not automatically make you a leftist, it makes you a liberal (or a fascist)

>>19548679
Or, you know, it has a word, like the one I literally said in my post that you just flat out ignored because you can't read: Social-democrat.

>>19546730
"Proletariat" isn't a thing after birth control.

>>19548695
"social democrat" is just a name for people who are just liberals masquerading as leftists lmao, where tankies create a government monopoly and say "socialism will happen soon!" the "social democrat" just maintains a normal liberal society and says "socialism will happen soon!"

>>19548651
Those policies in the United States will only further corrupt the diseased population

>>19548651
There is no functional difference between social democracy and Marxism-Leninism. They're all just schemes of equalization, by tax, with different aesthetics. The government ought to have no authority over the lives of individuals. I don't want your paternalism, your decadent utilitarian ethics. I want private health insurance, I want to own my guns, and I want to drive without a seat belt without being pulled over by the cops. I don't want the state to take my money to uplift leeches and moochers like unemployed college students and niggers. I don't want the United States world police at my expense. You're cancer and you have to go. All you Democrats.

>>19548695
how is a social-democrat not a liberal

>>19548451
You sound like you're over the age of 30 and don't read anything, much less marx and lenin. There are better spaces of discussion for your sort >>>/pol/
>>19548465
I never advocated for anyone to read kapital, but if you're going to try and engage in a discussion on this board on the subject you should at least be fucking somewhat knowledgeable about the subject. Besides, the basic fundamentals, from marx's critique of political economy to dialectical materialism to socialist economy, can be covered in other works which total ~250 pages. There is literally no excuse so fuck up or fuck off you dumb cunt
>>19548518
ok retard, and?

>>19548740
They are liberals in some foundational sense because they believe in liberal constitutional rights(basically only fascists and Marxist-leninists aren't by this definition), but they aren't liberals in an economic sense, literally half the GDP here in Norway is the state, and the social-democrats here have always been reluctant to privatize certain aspects of the economy.

>>19548763
fair enough. I usually think of liberalism as the belief in liberty and equality.

>>19548763
norway is literally a liberal capitalist nation with a few nationalized industries, mainly oil from what i understand, supporting their liberal reforms

you are literally just describing slightly reformed liberalism

>>19548797
Sure and I don't disagree that Norway has become more liberal over the years. But I consider myself a social-democrat and I'm not that liberal.

>>19548826
it doesn't matter what you "consider yourself", you L I T E R A L Y openly opt for a capitalist liberal democracy that allows private ownership of the means of production, that doesn't make you a fucking leftist, it makes you a liberal

>>19548847
Anon, I don't give a shit if your definition of leftist only means anyone who immediately murder every capitalist.

>>19548748
You're not knowledge at all. You're just a psued. You do the same dumb fucking argument all commies do when you can't win the argument. Its always "NOOOO YOU HAVEN'T READ MARX BRO IF YOU READ HIM YOU TOTALLY AGREE WITH ME!" Your entire argument is essentially ignore the historical evidence of Marxism in practice in lieu of theoretical dogmas that never match reality and are not even testable theories. You are no different than a solipsist.

>>19548669
>Socialism is a form of enlightened slavery. It is the opportunistic weaponization of the lower classes, using their resentment as a battering ram to enforce the rule of an elite few.
socialism doesn't enforce the rule of an elite few. it involves abolition of class and of division of labour. there's zero basis for any elite and their rule.
>The point of Marxist sociology
there's no such thing as Marxist sociology. sociology is a bourgeois pseudoscience dedicated to propagating bourgeois ideology, whereas Marxism is the theory of the liberation of the proletariat and it stand in opposition to bourgeois ideology
>class distinctions, and hierarchy, are the natural results of genetics and evolutionary biology
class distinctions haven't always existed and they got completely overturned many times historically. the social being of humans has its own life distinct from genetics. it evolves in a matter of centuries while genes evolve in a matter of tens of thousands of years.
>can never be abolished because men are inherently unequal by their nature
lol there are much, much fewer classes than there are people so there's already plenty of very unequal people existing in the same class. literally every word you say collapses upon minimal scrutiny
>a specialization of labor that benefits some over others as their capabilities limit their potential
no, people won't choose to do the same thing all the time once they have a real choice. they only do it now because they're pushed into it by capital, as that's more beneficial for its valorization
>To call for something , like the establishment of class, stupid would be disastrous as you would have literally make humanity instinct for it to be possible.
it's class distinctions that currently force people into being one-sided cogs. abolition of class will only lead to flourishing of many-sided individuality. your reduction of human distinctiveness to the question of having versus not having economic reserve due to access to surplus value is really ridiculous
>You people let morality, your emotions get in the way of reason.
no, it's the exact reverse: communists are about the only people who aren't deluded into thinking that reality is downstream from morality rather than the reverse. Engels:
>"Justice", "humanity", "freedom", etc., may demand this or that a thousand times over; but if the thing is impossible it does not take place and in spite of everything remains an "empty figment of a dream". The pan-Slavists' illusions ought to have understood that all pious wishes and beautiful dreams are of no avail against the iron reality...

>>19548847
Nobody gives a fuck about your online, never leave your house definition of leftism. You don't get to decide what people consider themselves.

>>19548852
youre a fucking idiot holy shit, America has had nationalized industries since fucking 1775 and also has multiple social welfare programs, you think that makes America leftist?

>>19548871
>>19548669
>We have the receipts of the dead for when Marxoids put their unnatural beliefs in practice.
such as?
>You can't play nature or god - no matter what "theories" you have.
sure, that's why we describe nature as it is rather than wishing for it to adjust itself to ideals. this is the essence of scientific socialism. Engels:
>We describe... economic relationships as they are and as they are developing, and we provide the proof, strictly economically, that their development is at the same time the development of the elements of a social revolution, the development on the one hand of a class whose conditions of life necessarily drive it to social revolution, the proletariat, and on the other hand of productive forces which, having grown beyond the framework of capitalist society, must necessarily burst that framework, and which at the same time offer the means for abolishing class differences once and for all in the interests of social progress itself. Proudhon, on the contrary, demands from present-day society that it shall transform itself not according to the laws of its own economic development, but according to the prescriptions of justice.... Where we prove, Proudhon, and with him Mülberger, preaches and laments.

>The laws of nature are independent of your idealism.
the objective nature of the capitalist mode of production leads to communism independent of your idealism
>That's why there will never be a socialist, or a communist, society, and with the limited time we have - it would be foolish to waste on our time attempting to push our way towards it.
so indeed it's you who's the idealist here. you can't possibly conceive the proletarian movement in real world terms, i.e. in terms of the proletariat struggling for its immediate needs. no, you're so divorced from reality that you can only conceive this in the idealist terms of utopian socialism, i.e. as an utopian project devised by some thinker to be imposed onto reality with the epic power of ideas -- a standpoint that was overcome by Marx and Engels 180 years ago

>>19548748
>ok retard, and?
nothing, just stay mad leftard

>>19548763
how many of those companies aren't based on producing for the market to exchange for the property of other private owners? how many don't buy wage labour from its private owners? they literally don't exist without free trade and private property.

>>19548874
lol mate you can consider yourself whatever the fuck you want, it wont make it true

>>19548876
>you think that makes America leftist?

It doesn't make the entire political system leftist no, but those policies are definitely not right-wing, because right-wingers simply want a laissez-faire liberalism/libertarian system without any handouts at all.

So what exactly would you call those policies if not left-wing?

>>19548867
>Your entire argument is essentially ignore the historical evidence
This retard doesn't know about historical and dialectical materialism. Ironic. If only you had read marx beforehand, you could have saved yourself the embarrassment.
>>19548884
ok retard

>>19548871
>socialism doesn't enforce the rule of an elite few. it involves abolition of class and of division of labour. there's zero basis for any elite and their rule.
you dont get to wave a magic wand and enforce the abolition of class and division of labor. you dont know a god damn thing about the history of leftist theory, do you?

>>19546730
https://youtu.be/3wPnQgjSZ54

>>19548867
>Your entire argument is essentially ignore the historical evidence
This retard doesn't know about historical and dialectical materialism. Ironic. If only you had read marx beforehand, you could have saved yourself the embarrassment. Also my argument isn't that you'd agree with me if you had read it, it's that I expect the interlocutor to have a baseline level of knowledge on the subject before trying to engage with it in discussion/debate. Is that really too much to ask on /lit/? For you to read?
>>19548884
ok retard

nobody hated leftists more than marx

>>19548884
>how many of those companies aren't based on producing for the market to exchange for the property of other private owners?

None of them obviously, but again I don't see how that is relevant, in a truly liberal society, most of it would be privatized in a heartbeat on principle alone.

>>19548871
>socialism doesn't enforce the rule of an elite few. it involves abolition of class and of division of labour
False - socialist societies have never done that. That's just a lie you repeat that has never been true and never will be true. This is just the propaganda you use to rationalize a vanguard party instituting a despotic dictatorship for its leaders for all eternity.
>there's no such thing as Marxist sociology.
There is - you're doing it right now. You're being a sophist, and attempting to distance yourself from sociology when it, as a field, is a pseudo-science entrenched with Marxist thought. "Bourgeoisie" is just the jargon you use, as a buzzword, to hide your intentions. Nobody here is stupid enough to fall for it.
>class distinctions haven't always existed
There have always been classes of different people - you just don't want to acknowledge the hard sciences that point this out. Men are not equal, and therefore, must be put in separate classes by society as their genes determine their job in society. Society will always need lower men to keep the trains running. Communists are just lowest, dumbest and inferior members of society who don't belong anywhere but the bottom. When they're at the time - we can see how decedent society can become. We've living it now.
>no, people won't choose to do the same thing all the time once they have a real choice.
Wrong, humans have instincts, a part of their innate biology, that determine their agency. Capital has nothing to do with it. You stupidly think humans, unless they agree with you, are tools of the so called "capitalists" when they are just animals who's fates are determined by their genetics as any other creature on Earth as they seek ways to efficiently make use of their limited time here. Blaming "bourgeois" is just the excuse you've created to scapegoat the failures in life you are personally responsible for from your lack of intelligence and capabilities.
>it's class distinctions that currently force people into being one-sided cogs.
Men are "cogs" because of their genetics. Class distinctions are result of genes determining what skills men have and therefore what role they have the ability to play. Your Marxist non-sense is again just another way for you to have a victim complex because you are too inferior to be anything else but a slob. Its the decadent voice of the mob, of democracy, that the meanest and dumbest masses ought to rule over the productive, successful few.
>no, it's the exact reverse: communists
Communists are terrorists who should be killed. They are nothing but the most destructive, degenerate forces of society. They wish to destroy everything that makes life great - property family and liberty. They should be slaughtered in the in most inhuman ways possible to send message that such infractions of men's freedom will never be a tolerated by tyrants. Death to socialists and death to communists.

>>19548922
>This retard doesn't know about historical and dialectical materialism
These are just buzzwords you use to rationalize the Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward, and Pol Pot's killing field and every communist atrocity. Its just the most disgusting Jewish deception. Marx was a kike. I don't care what he said - I already know communists did when they had political power. Your Jewish indoctrination tomes don't change the reality of communist regimes that people have lived through. You must be exterminated, you must be killed to prevent your ideas from taking root. And you must certainly will be.

>>19548871
>it's class distinctions that currently force people into being one-sided cogs. abolition of class will only lead to flourishing of many-sided individuality
Okay, retard.

>>19546730
because the proletariat are all right wing fascists who will and defend their own oppression, mainly

>>19548922
"Dialectical materialism" and "Historical Materialism" is just Christian , intelligent design but for atheists. Its utter bullshit. Nobody takes that garbage seriously.

>>19548990
I love /pol/ larp in the morning

>>19548997
Based Timmy. Not falling for the Jesus myth

Class issues are objectively intersectional, this isn't even a debate. You cant claim to stand for the working class while working POC, lgbtq+ people and other disadvantaged minorities are treated like second class citizens. the entire concept of class unity makes no fucking sense at all when you leave out 90% of the international working class.

Please stop trying to shoehorn in /pol/ rhetoric into leftism where it doesn't belong

>>19549057
>You cant claim to stand for the working class while working POC, lgbtq+ people and other disadvantaged minorities are treated like second class citizens.
This is not even true. Just because people find you repulsive, and don't respect you, doesn't mean you're second class. You just have no class, and that tends to make people not like you. Leftism belongs nowhere but the ground.

>>19549071
>>>/pol/

>>19546730
There's a group of transwomen who run the McDonald's drive-thru down the street from where I live. Doesn't seem to be a contradiction to me.

>>19548906
that's true. it will not be due to me waving a magic wand but due to the ruling proletariat being forced into it by material necessity. the means of production have outgrown private ownership and the abolition of private ownership will remove the basis for class distinctions and for social division of labour
>>19548935
>but again I don't see how that is relevant
private property and freedom of trade is liberalism.
>in a truly liberal society, most of it would be privatized in a heartbeat on principle alone.
this isn't a matter of principles but of economic necessity. what some hypothetical impossible liberal society would do is irrelevant to determining what liberalism is in reality.
transferring a business from a group of bourgeois stock owners to the bourgeois state and continuing to run it as a regular business doesn't change a thing. it's still based on trade with subjects granted equal rights to dispose of private property by the state which is supposedly legitimized by their popular will. i.e. it's still liberal through and through.
>>19548965
>False - socialist societies have never done that.
true, as there were no socialist societies yet. we're still in capitalism.
>This is just the propaganda
no, it's actual result of the study of human history
>you use to rationalize a vanguard party instituting a despotic dictatorship for its leaders for all eternity
you have a comical misunderstanding of history if you think some clique of leaders suspended in the air can just have personal dictatorship over the entire society. are they fucking sorcerers or something?
>There is - you're doing it right now.
no, sociology is a bourgeois pseudoscience studied in bourgeois academic institutions which Marxists unequivocally denounce
>"Bourgeoisie" is just the jargon you use, as a buzzword, to hide your intentions.
bourgeoisie is the class of people who are able to live just from the surplus value they appropriate due to their ownership of capital.
>There have always been classes of different people
no, there haven't always been classes. that people were different doesn't prove it: people are also different within classes today
>Men are not equal, and therefore, must be put in separate classes by society as their genes determine their job in society
jobs change rapidly from generation to generation. they aren't determined by genes. and inequality isn't a sufficient basis for the existence of classes, as I explained above.
>Society will always need lower men to keep the trains running.
no, it will need any men, they don't need to be lower or higher. and when men can decide what they do for themselves, they will decide that they and their entire species will benefit the most if they don't constrain themselves to each doing a single thing for 40 years.

>>19549161
>>19548965
>Communists are just lowest, dumbest and inferior members of society who don't belong anywhere but the bottom.
now I can feel the projection. I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself and you need to larp as some genetically superior god on an imageboard
>Wrong, humans have instincts, a part of their innate biology, that determine their agency.
instincts are very generic. they don't determine any particular social content.
>Capital has nothing to do with it.
it does. it explicitly incentivizes people into becoming cogs rather than developing like a real human being into multiple directions.
>You stupidly think humans, unless they agree with you, are tools of the so called "capitalists"
they're tools of capital whether they agree with me or not. even the capitalists are
>when they are just animals who's fates are determined by their genetics
just putting "genetics" everywhere doesn't explain a single thing. you're either a child or extremely stupid.
>Blaming "bourgeois" is just the excuse you've created to scapegoat the failures in life you are personally responsible for from your lack of intelligence and capabilities.
you do realize how hard you're telling on yourself right now with all this projection
>Men are "cogs" because of their genetics.
no, they're cogs because they're pushed into it with higher wages and profits, as such use of humans is what enables capital to expand in value the quickest.
>Class distinctions are result of genes determining what skills men have
90% of people living in my country have shit-eating peasant serfs as their close ancestors. yet they're all doing very varied things now. all your talk about genes can be disproved by taking a single look at reality
>Its the decadent voice of the mob, of democracy, that the meanest and dumbest masses ought to rule over the productive, successful few.
the majority supports capitalism though: that's the real decadent voice of the mob
>Communists are terrorists who should be killed.
thankfully for communists you sound like someone so stupid that your genes probably make you incapable even of killing someone properly
>They wish to destroy everything that makes life great - property family and liberty.
you're clearly a projecting poor and lonely virgin but okay
>They should be slaughtered in the in most inhuman ways possible to send message that such infractions of men's freedom will never be a tolerated by tyrants. Death to socialists and death to communists.
*tips fedora*

>>19549022
it's the opposite of intelligent design. its basic tenet is that men don't make history as they please.

>>19549163
You're a materialist and therefore you should be bludgeoned

>>19549161
>that's true. it will not be due to me waving a magic wand but due to the ruling proletariat being forced into it by material necessity. the means of production have outgrown private ownership and the abolition of private ownership will remove the basis for class distinctions and for social division of labour
literally
>you dont have to wave a magic wand bro trust me, it will just happen magically on its own
JFC you people are genuinely retarded

>>19549172
Yet you're bludgeoning me with a material instrument.

>>19546730
Why does the right make life worse for the proletariat and then complain about the left not making it better for them?

>>19549214
No I'm bludgeoning you in the name of God

>>19546743
This is the worst post ive seen on 4chan ever, i would assume you're trolling but I know youre too much of a fucking moron to understand why you're wrong. You Moron you absolute bafoon you fucking idiot i hope you die

>>19546730
Because the proles don't like revolutions and communism and are generally more conservative so they are just like, fuck them, exalt the lumpen: trannies, niggers, criminals, anyone that can destroy society so they can dominate it.

>>19549254
see >>19549057

>>19549217
bravo, thats the real question we should all be asking, the one that really maters.

>>19548109
>Marx wrote the manifesto and capital whenever there was child labor and people working and dying in factories on a daily basis.
Marx and Engels wrote the Manifesto in 1848 when industrialization was really only getting started, and even in their day, communism wasn't the dominant tendency on the left. It was merely a spectre haunting Europe. It just happened that the year 1900 rolled around so Marx and Engels seemed like they had ~FUTURE VISION~™

>>19549277
marx and engles were already proven wrong and marxist revisionism was already in full swing by 1900 lmao

guys whats the gist of the left and the right again
im kinda confused after all this bickering and a pol trip

>>19548445
>I actually attended Occupy and now I'm affiliated with white nationalism, and I'm far from the only one.
That's why you're not special. Probably the most important thing to understand about Occupy Wall Street is that, as a national movement that involved a wide variety of different points of view ranging from the left to Ron Paul libertarian people and Alex Jones and some combinations in between, everything that came after it on the radical sides of things -- including ML politics, socialist / communist politics, far-right glow populism, whatever you like -- in much of the English-speaking world, is partially the product of OWS. That's how history works. There's no going around it, there's only going through it, creating it and being created by it in a dialectical process.

>>19547285
>we're all jealous
Fee-fees are not an argument, nor a relevant """observation""".

Outstanding contribution.

>>19549057
Well, yeah, duh, that is why Stalin launch the third world movement, prole nations against bourgeois nations but since that didn't work for whatever reason now they promote the lumpen.

>>19546743
>>19549057
How exactly are PoC and LGBTQ+ comparable in their minority statuses, exactly? Pretty sure that's a unidirectional claim rejected by the majority of African Americans - they're only coalitional allies by virtue of perceived exclusion, not similarity in set/setting.
>Intersectional
This is gibberish.

>>19546743
Netflix writers and business HR reps aren't working class.

>>19549435
If a bunch of Dravidian left-nationalists led by a guy named after Joseph Stalin and communists can back up trans people over there then I think people can do that anywhere.

https://youtu.be/cbJEwrxL4yY?t=77

Here's a tip: you don't have to give up on something if you don't feel it's right to do so, contra the incessant liberal plea to "compromise." I know some people reading this agree with me, but I've learned not to expect much from the people on this forum who capitulated a long time ago or compromised out of a sense of "doomerism" and defeat.

>>19549429
>How exactly are PoC and LGBTQ+ comparable in their minority statuses, exactly?
how are they not? both are minorities who are victims of systemic and general social abuse/exploitation
>rejected by the majority of African Americans
african americans can be transphobic/homophioc too
>This is gibberish
no it isnt, you just arent very privileged in your education. it means class issues intersect with race issues, lgbtq+ issues, and all sorts of issues of systemic abuse, and these things are not entirely separate entities, but actually all intertwined in their own ways.

>>19549491
>both are *vulnerable minorities

Like I said, if anyone is reading this, you don't have to listen to the people ITT. They're a bunch of basement nerds who have absolutely no backbone, courage or fighting spirit. But they win by demoralization and doomerism and they "win" insofar that they successfully coat the rest of the society with their despair like a coat of grease. But they demoralize themselves. On the other hand, I know my people -- even if we're a minority -- are gonna win, because we're right.

https://youtu.be/uwPlnWhnncA

>>19549057
Fuck POCs

>>19549491
I see this and have to wonder about /lit/ reading comprehension.
>african americans can be transphobic/homophioc too
I know, that's why I said it was unidirectional - homophobia is commonplace in black communities. You might even say that black communities are incubators for most IRL hatecrime (whereas online forums incubate hatespeech amongst generic oppressors).
>it means class issues intersect with race issues, lgbtq+ issues, and all sorts of issues of systemic abuse
This doesn't tell me anything, it's a position that's not even really predicated on normative claims. What you're really saying is
>systemic issues are complex
which means fuck-all. It's motte/bailey gibberish.

>>19549539
>This doesn't tell me anything
how does it not? the difference between acknowledging class issues being intersectionaly related to race issues, gender issues, sexuality etc. is absolutely MASSIVE. it means the difference between seeing the forest for the the trees and not. acknowledging these issues as an intertwined whole it is absolutely critical to solving any one of these issues individually.

>>19549502
Indian communists are the only based communists (well, I guess the Posadists are based too). They inject a spirituality into communism which makes it attractive.

>>19549539
>not realizing you're responding to bait

>>19549521
I think they’re getting plenty of action.

>>19549633
I will use POC as a racial slur until it turns into one then they have to use some dumb new phrase for niggers

>>19549632
>not realizing this is a legitimate position in every advocacy movement

>>19546813
>literally, literally

>>19547207
>the world is divided between democrats and republicans because my amerilardian brain can't see past the USA
What part of OP's post had anything to do, explicitly, with American politics?