/lit/ - Literature

>>19486408
Actually, I am pretty sure the point is that "our guys" win at the end. If the Illiad was written today, you would have certainly seen the Trojans win because of some vaguely anti-imperialist take. With all that said, I really do feel that Hector was the unambiguous good guy of the story.

>>19486408
Homer, virgil and ferdowsi
Dont forget ossian

Imagine thinking Paris is a good guy

Why'd they end it without resolving it? Was Homer just following the capeshit model and forcing people to read the Odyssey to get the epilogue?

>>19486574
Hector was the good guy.

>>19486616
remember that the story itself is about less about the trojan war and more about the rage of achilles (it's in the first line after all). the beginning describes how achilles's anger arose, the middle how it developed and the end how it resolved.

>>19486574
Paris had the drip no cap on folkz

>>19486616
>Homer
>Read

>>19486616
They did end it, in a lost work

>>19486631
Hector was great, but he was a tragic hero. Conflating "Hector" with "Troy" is a mistake. Homer makes it clear early on that he doesn't approve of his brother and Helen's horseshit and him and his father are suffering for it.

>>19486408
then just write your own ending where they loose
bitch

>>19486408
The Iliad ends before the siege of Troy is finished. You didn't read the book.

>>19486616
do you actually fucking think these stories were made only through homer writing them from his imagination
this board is fucking dead

>>19487221
Wether Homer was one man or many it's common to speak as if 'Homer' wrote them. And obviously there's a need for resolution, even assuming the events are historical the Illiad and the Odyssey are stories within the events.

>>19486505
I always liked Hector the most, and found his cowardice at the end very strange.

>>19486518
based ferdowsi poster

>>19487122
He means the breeders.

>>19486408
there are no bad guys

>>19487221
Homer was real and he wrote all of those stories faggot, deal with it.

>>19487937
Homer is a real character in a real literary tradition and just as real as Enosh (Gen 5:6-11).

Which is to say your waifu isn't real.

>>19486408
>300 lines of ship names and then maybe there's a swordfight or something idk
greeks thought this was "epic"

>>19487976
>your waifu isn’t real
Wrong. Faith trumps truth.

ACHILLES!
ACHILLES!
ACHILLES!

>>19488109
SWIFT-FOOTED

>>19487745
>and found his cowardice at the end very strange
That was Hellenic propaganda.

>>19486408
>>the bad guys win at the end
>blocks your path

>>19488109
Brooding faggot, Hector should have won, taken Breseis and skewered her with his eleven forearm long spear, gently and with love of course.

>>19487745
I recall him running away from Achilles but he did confront him head on eventually. I do think he was the most morally upright character though, he was trying to clear up the mess his jackass little brother made. One of my favourite moments was Book 6, when he was saying goodbye to his wife before heading out to battle. She said he was like her father and mother all in one, which made me chuckle desu.

>>19486408
>"By heaven, arrows of mine are whetted differently.
One that grazes a man will stretch him dead.
His woman's cheeks are torn with grief,
his children orphaned. He must soak the earth
and rot, with kites for company, not women!"
What did Diomedes mean by this?

I'm currently reading it
The huge melee was incredibly boring and repetitive but the rest is pretty good.

>>19488022
90% of the book is men throwing spears at each other
>>19486408
No one wins at the end, Priam receives his son's corpse and that's it, the poem ends. Why do people come and pretend to read books they probably never even touched?

>>19486631
Hector didn't throw the first stone either.

>>19486408
Evil is an inevitable consequence of an action.

>>19488970
Tell me more

>>19488562
The part with (I think) Odysseus charging up his massive bow attack was really awesome. Also the parts where spears tear through layers of armor and either make it or don't were really entertaining. And the shenanigans with the gods are all fantastic. I like to imagine Athena as a young bratty girl in all her scenes and it makes them ten times better (like when she's whining to get Zeus to help her and Zeus becomes a total doting father every time).

>>19486408
>the bad guys
Aeneid fan spotted. No but seriously, the greeks are obviously the good guys in the Iliad's frame. The Trojans aren't pure evil, but they're at least somewhat in the wrong for abducting another man's wife and after all the bad blood from the fighting, it could only end with either the sack of Troy or the Trojans wiping out the entire Greek army.

>>19489097
>The Trojans aren't pure evil, but they're at least somewhat in the wrong for abducting another man's wife
It’s all twisted around who’s in the wrong, but fault definitely wasn’t the Troyans

>>19489619
It obviously was their fault. No, not blaming them for the gods' mischief, abducting Helen and bringing her to Paris in Troy as part of the deal with Aphrodite. But not giving her back once it was known she was already wed to another man was wrong. There's zero justification for Paris insisting on keeping her and the Trojans for entertaining his folly.

>>19489802
>Modern jurisprudence
Apollonians, please.

>>19489848
Nothing modern about it. By the standards of honor at the time even if Paris was going to be a selfish fool, the rest of the Trojans should have taken Helen from him by force and returned her to where she belonged for the sake of honor. That they didn't was a severe moral failing on the part of the Trojans.

>>19489886
She didn’t “belong” to anyone. If a woman up and leaves you, you have no claim to her. Fuck your standard of honor.
Was it honorable for Zeus to rape Nemesis?
Was it honorable for Agamemnon to have his own daughter murdered for favorable wind?
The furies should hound you till suicide for your conditional honor.

>>19489931
>tripfag
>uses modern as a pejorative and reason to dismiss and argument
>gets schooled and immediately starts bringing modern sensibilities into things
>ignores that Helen wanted to go back and was captive against her will
Yep, that's going in my filter list.

>>19489931
*Was it honorable for Theseus to rape her as a child!?
You wonder why she has little dedication? She was betrayed by males from the start.

>>19489968
>Modern sensibilities
That’s the thing, anon. Your Apollonian age, “trad” is the modern.
>ignores ten years
Like I said from the start, it gets twisted. The base of the argument is that she’s a piece of meat to own by a “husband”, and I don’t buy into that contractual garbage. I am more “trad” than any of you.

>>19489087
The Nation of Islam's opinion of white people is correct. We are monsters, destroyers of worlds, the most destructive force in history. You just have to accept it as a fact and not reproach yourself for your nature, not try to be someone else.
In fact, I wrote it ironically (but not quite). Nevertheless, look at what the deeds of almost any truly great historical figure, Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler, etc. have led in the end.
By creating and maintaining a stable system, you are not creating more evil than is required. By breaking the status quo, you are likely to create a lot more evil.

>>19490012
>Ancient Greece
>Ever viewing women as anything other than property
You have misread Calasso so badly I would normally assume you're making a joke but you're known for being a humorless retard

>>19490067
You slander Calasso? I’ll make my own judgments once I finish it. It doesn’t matter.
Women and men are not property. Anyone who tries to take another as slave should be put down as diseased wretch to stop the infection.

>>19490091
My property????

>>19488282
I'm right at that part. Diomedes rekt Paris pretty bad in that scene lmao

>>19490091
>You slander Calasso?
I have read all of Calasso's works excluding those focused on publishing. Your interpretation of Cadmus and Harmony is absolutely bizarre and entirely detached from the text. The most obvious case of ideology blinding its host from reality.
>I’ll make my own judgments once I finish it. It doesn’t matter.
Infantile, maybe you should consider finishing a text before making bold statements about it
>Women and men are not property.
Wes well in the Bronze and Classical Greek eras, they absolutely were, and that's absolutely reflected in their myths.

>>19490101
You do not have the power
Instead of breeding stupid cattle to peel your grapes and fan you, you should unite with others to bring about better conditions. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

>>19490133
Kek

>>19490122
Is it actually a case for reestablishing slavery and patriarchy? He seems to just be going over what the stories could mean. Like I fucking said, it doesn’t matter. I have my own mind and won’t be swayed by a mere mortal author. Are you someone’s slave?

>>19490149
>Social Anarchists
>It’s Tolstoy
I don’t think you understand Anarchism/communism. You’re just a sociopath.

>>19490150
>Like I fucking said, it doesn’t matter. I have my own mind and won’t be swayed by a mere mortal author. Are you someone’s slave?
Imagine being 40 years old and being this juvenile and petulant, what a pathetic state of affairs.

>>19490170
>juvenile and petulant
Aka, free. You are someone’s slave.

>>19490185
Juvenile is not child-like
Petulant is not rebellious
You are 40 years old and have cultivated no virtues or endearing qualities

>>19486616
>Book 5 of 8 in the series
>Doesn't resolve everything
Really makes you think doesn't it, anon.

>>19490223
Fine. I deny the charges regardless.
>where your virtue?!
Up your ass

>>19490250
another banger post by our resident harridan

>>19490289
> harridan
You want the first arrow?

>>19490310
You have osteoporosis and unironically cannot do a single pushup

>>19490310
>>19490250
>>19490185
>>19490159
>>19490150
>>19490149
>>19490091
>>19489931
>>19489848
You are the most annoying user on this website. Why can't you just fuck off to some anarchist subreddit or something? Nobody likes you here. Do you have battered wife syndrome for 4chan?

>all these replies to hidden posts
Holy shit you gigantic newfags.
Don't feed the trolls.
Don't give tripfags attention.
Just ignore them.
This is 4chan 101, common knowledge since 2004.

>want to call my son Ajax because it's a cool name
>The fucking detergent ruined it for everyone

Which translation you reading lads? I've listened to the Alexander Pope one and even the intro is ballin'

>>19486518
Where can I find Ossians poetry translated into verse, and not prose?

>>19490064
>black race
>Straight hair
>gold eyes
>thin sharp, pronouned nose
>flat face
>arab

>>19486616
>"tell me muse, of the rage of Achilles"
>Muse tells of the rage of Achilles
>"reeeee they didn't finish the side plot of the trojan war reeee reeeee"

>>19488171
based

>>19490797
>based butterfuck triggers another autist

>>19490797
Filter her trip; it's the closest to victor you can get.

>>19493435
victory*

>>19486505
The Trojans were Indo-European.

>>19489931
>Helen's beauty was exploited by us gods
>To force the Greeks and Trojans into war -
>A needed cleansing of the earth,
>When populations grow too large.
Apollo, Orestes, Euripdes.

>>19486616
Everyone knew the story of the Trojan War already, Homer took two episodes from it and turned them into epics. Later, other poets adapted the rest of the story until there was a complete epic cycle, but only Homer survives.

>>19486505
Fuck Agamemnon/Achilles all my homies like Hector/Aeneas.

>all these hidden replies
Let me guess, buttercunt is ruining another thread with her braindead, painfully female takes?

>>19493912
Literally whining because Helen gold digging Paris knowing full well it'd trigger a war then in typical woman fashion tries to bail when the Greeks are about to win is depicted badly by Homer.

>>19490185
>>19490223
>40 years old
Fuck me. I grew out of this bullshit when I was like 18.

>>19486408
The guys they defeated were Philhellenes. In other words, Western.
>>19489619
Obligatory kill yourself.

>>19493912
you bastard.you bastard.you bastard.

>claims to know what Calasso wrote
> “The life of Helen marked a moment of precarious, fleeting equilibrium, when, thanks to the deceitful cunning of Zeus, necessity and beauty were superimposed the one over the other. The rape of Nemesis was the most formidable theological gamble of Zeus’s reign. To provoke a forced convergence of beauty and necessity was to challenge the law of heaven. Only Olympus could have sustained such a thing, certainly not the earth, where that challenge blazed uncontrollably throughout Helen’s lifetime. It was a time marked from beginning to end by calamity. But it was also the time men would go on dreaming of, long after that fire had gone out.”
>The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony, Roberto Calasso

>>19493957
>I grew out of Homer at 18
Why you in the thread, kid?

>>19486408
Read the Aeneid.
The good guys were playing the long game, ultimately Rome conquered Greece.

>>19495809
The Aeneid is cope

Diomedes > Achilles

HECTORRRRR

>>19495174
I'm not even going to question you on this one. If you truly believe this passage about Zeus' hubris in raping the Goddess of retribution somehow implies Calasso thought women in ancient Greece were not essentially slaves to men, that's your business.

>>19490797
just add /^!!bGBGaUpA8kS$/ to your filter list under "tripcode" retard

>>19495174
I probably grew out of pretending not to understand an insult for the sake of internally saving face at the same time.
You are just stunted in every way.

>>19486408
do you ever read a post and just know it was written by some form of subhuman 3rd worlder?

>>19486408
Nah, It's a story about how all women are whores
>be Helen
>be married
>run away with that faggot Paris
>husband and friends go to Troy
>give back my wife
>war
>Paris dies
>Helen starts fucking Paris' remaining brothers
>Troy falls
>she goes back with her husband

>>19499634
Most of those things don't happen in the Iliad.

>>19489802
>the gods' mischief
That's fan fic. What happened was that Paris was invited to Sparta and ran away with Menelaus' wife.

>>19491071
You can still name him Ulysses

>>19491071
just like this guy ruined Hector

There is one school of thought that argues that Helen was once an Indo-European dawn goddess, according to a (contested) etymology of the name Helen

Feminine form of Ἕλενος (Hélenos), possibly from ἑλένη (helénē, “torch, shining”)

among other things. Thus the rape of Helen is would be an euhemerized version of an archaic (now lost) myth about the capture and return of the dawn from Anatolia

The Greek word refers to the direction where the sun rises, coming from ἀνατέλλω anatello '(Ι) rise up,'

Others believe in the full historicity, and everything in between 100% myth and 100% history. There is also a metaphysical interpretation by Proclus the Neoplatonist.

>>19498912
Not even what we were talking about. Poor dodge attempt.

>>19498962
When a child calls me childish, I try to help him up from his mistake. You’re confused.

>>19500653
My first reply to you was objecting to your claim women in ancient Greece were not seen as property- and that this opinion was somehow "traditional."
You posted Cadmus and Harmony, implying this position was somehow supported by that work. It is literally what we were talking about.

>>19486408
>western "civilization"
3rdie detected. I wonder if he's Indian, Muslim or Chinese?

>>19491351
she's not supposed to be an Arab

>>19499732
It's not mere etymology, it's literally the story.
>Beautiful woman named after the Dawn
>who has a golden necklace
>is kidnapped by a foreigner aggressor
>two brothers
>renowned for their horsemanship
>go out and rescue her
This IS Easter's myth. The rescue of Easter (I use her name in this manner because "Easter" IS her name, just in Modern English) IS the myth.

This isn't to say that the Iliad and Odyssey didn't happen, they're 100% historical, but rather that we see fractal echoes throughout the cosmos of these divine things.