/lit/ - Literature

>It all began when Pat Rothfuss was born to a marvelous set of parents. Throughout his formative years they encouraged him to do his best, gave him good advice, and were no doubt appropriately dismayed when he failed to live up to his full potential.

>In high-school Pat was something of a class clown. His hobbies included reading a novel or two a day and giving relationship advice to all his friends despite the fact that he had never so much as kissed a girl. He also role-played and wrote terrible stories about elves. He was pretty much a geek.

>Most of Pat's adult life has been spent in the University Wisconsin Stevens Point. In 1991 he started college in order to pursue a career in chemical engineering, then he considered clinical psychology. In 1993 he quit pretending he knew what he wanted to do with his life, changed his major to "undecided," and proceeded to study whatever amused him. He also began writing a book....

>For the next seven years Pat studied anthropology, philosophy, eastern religions, the blade, history, alchemy, parapsychology, literature, and writing. He studied six different martial arts, practiced improv comedy, learned how to pick locks, and became a skilled lover of women. He also began writing a satirical advice column which he continues to this day: The College Survivial Guide. Through all of this he continued to work on his novel.

The above is his description on goodreads, obviously written by himself. Rothfuss is the platonic ideal of a redditor. I could not make this as a satire if I tried. Skilled lover of women. Let it sink in. Listen to the music of that sentence. Mull it over in your mind.fat overweigth neckbeard

>>19476953

>For the next seven years Pat studied... the blade
I thought that was supposed to be a joke why would he write that in his own bio?

>>19476944

Why has this guy not published anything for 10 years? Perhaps he isn't serious enough.

>>19476953
>Rothfuss is the platonic ideal of a redditor. I could not make this as a satire if I tried. Skilled lover of women. Let it sink in. Listen to the music of that sentenc
What are you implying there? That you don't need skill to make love to women?

>>19476992
I think he means to say Patrick Rothfuss likely isn't a skilled lover of women.

>>19476992
The point he's likely trying to make is that no one that can get women off and consistently does so would describe themselves as ''a skilled lover of women.'' That coupled with the fact that the man is a fat neckbeard probably means that anon is right.

He is the bug man personified. He's not even a human to me, I just hate everything about him. His philosophy and politics, his mannerisms and body. Everything about him is so gross.

>>19477061
you're just mad because he's cooler than you
what did you think of Name of the Wind

R. Scott Bakker made a better effort defending genre fantasy

https://www.sffworld.com/2000/06/why-fantasy-and-why-now/

>>19477369
Defending against what? Who?

>>19477369
>>19476944
The best defence of fantasy as serious literature is to write it. Too often these things sound like writers being entitled or controlling about the critical response to their work. Let the critics and naysayers seethe, who cares.

>>19476944
The biggest issue with fantasy is that most fantasy writers are shit.

Crime and Punishment and your random airplane crime novel can both be roughly described as "crime fiction". Yet Crime and Punishment is "serious literature", because Dostoevsky is an actually great writer with skill, depth and passion.

Most fantasy writers have never developed their writing beyond the airplane novel level; they think muh worldbuilding makes up for bland prose and dull themes that are, at best, uninspired allegories for "modern day issues" (aka liberal talking points, or conservative ones, depending on who we're talking).

>>19477527
>conservative talking points
I can't think of one fantasy novel that talks from a conservative perspective outside of caricature meant to mock.

>>19476944
It can, but it’s typically not. The very fact of it being FANTASY makes it necessarily not serious.

>>19477475
They can’t do that because it doesn’t work. Plan B is to write apologetics trying to convince people. There’s nothing wrong with fantasy either for what it is or more importantly (as myth - Tolkien and Tolkien alone knew this), but the second they try to push into the realm of the “serious” they out cancel it all out. Realism is the death of art. Intuitively they knew this, and that’s one of the many reasons they gravitated to fantasy in the first place, but in this context “serious” and “realistic” are interchangeable. You see the problem?

>>19477527
>The biggest issue with fantasy is that most fantasy writers are shit
This pretty much and I'm an aspiring fantast writer. Sometimes I go to r/fantast and screenshot some of the ideas to send to my gf so we can laugh at the sheer, undistilled autism and lack of creativity out there.

>>19477602
What is the functional difference between myth and modern fiction? I don't disagree with your points necessarily, but take something like Blood Meridian and Lord of the Rings. Both stories try to demonstrate a past in explanation of something. Does Blood Meridian's proximity to the present somehow make it different in essence, or do both stories occupy the same 'space' as it were? That is, the space of the human 'myth'.
Of course, Blood Meridian is much better written and tackles more serious issues than Lord of the Rings, I'm more wondering if there can even be 'fantasy' as a concept. Aren't all stories told by humans technically 'fantasy' in that for the most part they haven't happened, even the true ones? Eye witnesses misremember shit all the time.

As a side note, does Fantasy need to be connected to our own history to be good? I find it's often the case. Lord of the Rings and Conan the Barbarian are exemplars of the genre, and both technically take place in the same universe as ours.

>>19477538
Tolkien's emphasis on traditional culture, small groups of people, nature over industry and the conservation of the old ways of life seems like a conservative to me, but I might be mistaken. I don't mind being corrected.

>>19477782
No, I think you're right. To be clear I wrote what I wrote as a statement rather than a tut at what you were saying. Beyond Tolkien I can't think of many, however - which leads me to wonder if publishers simply don't take anything up that could be construed as vaguely conservative.

>>19476944
Maybe, but 99% of fantasy is very derivative and unoriginal. For something to be considered good literature for me it must both be original and well written and this excludes the great majority of fantasy series. Of course Tolkien is considered great literature because he invented the whole genre, but the 1.000.000 authors copying his work are not. Also, fantasy writers have the custom of writing stories that span thousands of pages what is a great indicative that the author is not being very careful with the story and just pumping pages upon pages of unoriginal garbage, those thousand pages series are full of very bad subplots that should not be there if the author was really interested in writing something great instead of just pumping a 3000+ page behemoth.

That being said, fantasy can be very fun, I remember reading the first 3 books of A Song of Ice and Fire a decade ago and having a blast.

>>19477860
Could we say that fantasy writers know how to "work hard but not smart"?

>>19476944
the answer is a categorical yes with the added stipulation that any other answer automatically places you in the "rube" category

with that said Rothfuss' trash novels are not literature

>>19477782
It's certainly aligned to conservatism, but it's more of a wide worldview and the post was talking about conservative talking points. So basically allegories to right-wing themes that are prevalent in today's discourse like anti-immigration, anti-trannies, anti-communism and the like. I think there may be some out there but they certainly aren't as prevalent as left-wing ones.

>Serious literature
Stopped reading there

>>19476944
I got his first book after everyone wouldn't shut up about how beautiful and poetic his prose was. Never have I been more disappointed.

>>19477871
Probably. I think fantasy writers often lose themselves in the smell of their own farts, their books get so fucking long because of all the time they spend in worldbuilding. They think, well, Tolkien wrote a load of shit just to have a fully fleshed world, I'm just doing the same, but really, they aren't.

Take LOTR. LOTR (the trilogy alone) has relatively little exposition into it, besides the appendices. They're massive bricks, but what Tolkien dwells into is the real world stuff that he's passionate about - forests, nature, mountains, small life, the awe caused by the ancient. Those are pretty universal things, it's easy to relate to them even if they happen to be called Fangorn or whatever, because what draws Tolkien's attention to it is not the fantastical but that which also exists in our world.

The average fantasy writer, though, will spend pages upon pages describing the whole lineage of King Fantasyname the Fourteenth and the specifics of the War of the Great Autism against the Dark Specters - things that no one gives a shit about. It's pure wank. Tolkien put some things of this into LOTR, but mostly relegated it to the appendices. A book where those things take center stage is, frankly, completely uninteresting; it's like listening to some kid drone on for hours about his invented world, nothing's relatable.

>>19477860
>Maybe, but 99% of fantasy is very derivative and unoriginal.
I think the ratio of good fantasy to bad fantasy is the same as the ratio of good literary fiction to bad literary fiction. The difference is that bad fantasy can at least function as escapism whereas bad literary fiction is just boring.

>>19478121
Talking about wordbuilding is a lot like talking about your dreams. It's never as interesting to everyone else as it is to you.

>>19477747
>What is the functional difference between myth and modern fiction?
This is the central question in the whole discussion.
Myth was taken as true, as an explanation of why the world is the way it is. Myths could be correct or wrong (in Christian vocabulary: heretical), they weren't merely stories to toy with. Literature (fiction), including fantasy, is valuable regardless of its truthfulness.
It's a massive, fundamental difference in how myth and literature are constructed and meant to be perceived. Sure, we today can and do read ancient myths as fictional literature, but that's absolutely not what they were made for. You have to be a retard like Rothfuss not to understand that.

>>19476944
The very idea of a walled space of "serious literature" is taken more seriously by the people (writers, readers) who see themselves as outside of it. This is just an another example.
Stuff like Frankenstein (Shelly), We (Zamyatin), Alice in Wonderland, EA Poe, Hofmann, Gogol, Borges, all sorts of fantastic fables and stories, has been a part of "serious literature" (which I think could be described as the stuff earnestly studied in academia) for well over two centuries. It all could be considered sci-fi and fantasy (unlike myth, it intentionally makes up phenomena that is contrary to the real everyday world). The difference is that modern fantasy is defined by a very limited world-model, satisfying the typically "genre" desires - excitement, "coolness", escapism (so they have the entire concept of "worldbuilding").
There certainly is some modern fantasy literature that could offer something to the readers of "serious literature", e.g. LOTR, Narnia, His Dark Materials (whose active dialogue with literary tradition is unparalleled in the genre, as far as I know), and indeed I come across scholars who treat these three with quite some seriousness. But the genre as a whole will never come to satisfy the "serious literature" readership if it won't reflect the readership's needs - which are not the abovementioned things such as escapism, but aesthetic pleasure, philosophical, psychological and social insight, etc. (of course, the details vary from reader to reader).
On the contrary, there's pic related. It raises the question: what does the genre audience even want? Why do they want fantasy to be considered "serious literature", if they think serious literature is largely lame and boring in the first place?

>>19478156
Is it known for a certainty that people always believed myth to be true? I don't disagree with the assertion, but I have to wonder if it's strictly speaking, true. Could it be that myth only needs to serve as a means to reassert a cultural identity? Like Tolkien wanted to do with LoTR and the saxons.
>what does the genre audience even want? Why do they want fantasy to be considered "serious literature", if they think serious literature is largely lame and boring in the first place?
I believe they want the accolades. They want to be considered on par with the greats, and be spoken of in High School classrooms. Like all pseudo-leftist ideologues, they are foremost obsessed with being considered cool by the youth more so than saying anything useful.

>>19476944
>What do you all think? Can Fantasy be serious literature?
No.

>>19478062
I don't know if this counts, as it is a LN, but Youjo Senki has fantasy elements (there's magic and the like) and its main character absolutely hates communism and goes on about the virtues of the free market and the School of Chicago.

>>19476944
>mythology is fantasy
I wish I didn't read that entire wall of text
>>19478156
The difference between those books you mentioned (Frankenstein and Alice in wonderland) is that they're actually good, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of fantasy.

>>19478156
Excellent analysis; I think you have great insight into this phenomenon. Fantasy writers seem to have low self esteem in general terms, and that's not something I'd considered deserved. I am positive that a good fantasy/science fiction story is much more valuable than a mediocre "literary" story. I would say that before this complex was born classic science fiction and fantasy could be exceptional and on par with many literary works. Fantasy authors need to branch out, explore ideas and reevaluate themselves if they feel the need to defend their work so bitterly. There can be great merit in that medium, all that matters is the quality of individual works.

>>19476944
Should've given GR the nebula

>>19478121
So stick the lore into an appendix for those who wanna read it but don't overburden the reader with unnecessary exposition?

>>19478121
But Name of the Wind isn't like this at all, so why is this thread railing against him? I think you don't know what your own opinion even is.

>>19478143
>>19478121
I disagree that world building is inherently uninteresting I just think it’s often done in a poor way. Dune and Book of the New Sun slowly reveal more of their world as the stories go on so it makes it more enjoyable to learn about them (though it does help that Wolfe and Herbert both make such imaginary universes). Certain writers like Robert E. Howard do just world build by listing off facts about their world but he’s usually so brief with it it doesn’t interrupt the pace of the storytelling.

>>19479049
It's not that I hate all word-building, it's that I think people get too pre-occupied with it and miss the point of art. Worldbuilding should be in service of the plot, which should be in service of the themes and aesthetic. Dark Souls is a good non-literary example. The lore exists to build the aesthetic of a dying world where all the mythic events happened long ago. Not only do the details not matter but too much detail would ruin the mystery and therefore the entire point of the game.

The problem is that some people get too pre-occupied with that feeling of mystery and try to make it more than it is. They can't just appreciate it as a temporary aesthetic experience, like listening to music, they have to try and create a fully realised world to escape into. The problem being that you can't actually escape and, even if you could, what you would end with would just be a new day-to-day reality rather than a piece of art.

>>19477860
>Tolkien is considered great literature because he invented the whole genre
no he didn't retard

>>19479441
Can you elaborate angry boy?

>>19479471
fantasy was a thing before tolkien
i don't need to elaborate

>>19479515
You can't elaborate because you're schizo
Fantasy as a genre did not exist before Tolkien

>>19479588
The guy who never heard of Lord Dunsany wants to make declarative statements on the history of fantasy.

>>19477259
havent read a word of it

>>19476944
Patrick gnomefuss

>>19477805
The atrocious Legend of the Seeker pushes its author’s libertarian ideology constantly.

>>19479683
Libertarians are leftist. The word literally comes from liberal.

>>19479610
What gave you that impression?

>>19479772
I reasoned that nobody who knew anything about him would say such stupid things about Tolkien inventing fantasy.

>i am the best at sex and the best sex that ever was
>i sexed the sex goddess and she said i was the best sex ever and she orgasmed and my sex was so sex i escaped the sex prison
>i then sexed every man woman and child on my conquest for sex and they praised me for being the best sex ever
>i then joined the sex cult and sexed my way to the top of the sex cult and was rewarded with sex for being the best at sex
>but i will not sex donner as she is beyond sex and i am not worthy of her sex
>i am kvothe, the sex chronicler

>>19477369
>R. Scott Bakker
Literally who? Who is this faggot?

>>19479693
Your brain might detonate if you ever see a political party outside of the US

>>19479809
Why would that cause my head to explode?

>>19479804
>Who is this faggot?
Some leftist that wrote a power fantasy with his self-insert being Chinese knocked off of some shit.

>>19478095
How you separate Kafka from John Green??

>>19476944
It is fucking unbelievable to me that this motherfucking hack, objectively the laziest human being "working" In the industry today, is allowed to opine on what is and isn't literature, and write all these asinine blog posts about how writers should and shouldn't be allowed to do things, when he still hasn't finished his own fucking trilogy after fourteen years.

>>19479610
>who was e r eddison
>who was lord dunsany
>who was william morris
>who was robert e howard
>who was hp lovecraft
>who was clark ashton smith
tolkienfags are delusional midwit retards is there anything else new?

>>19478062
So you're saying there's a market for fantasy that promotes traditional values and the destruction of woke bullshit?

>>19476944
Fantasy=fiction. There is literally no difference in the meaning of the words. From that, we can say the genre label "fantasy" is merely a euphemism for a much narrower phenomena. Specifically, it is applied to anything written to pander to Tolkien fanboys, as the Hobbit is top selling stuff. If it was merely weird, and not ripping off Tolkien, it would be placed in the "fiction" section. By it's very genre categoritization, it presents itself as mere escapism, because that's what Tolkien intended. That's why it will never be taken seriously

>>19480254
Why wouldn't there be? People love reading and listening to things that affirm their beliefs. Telling people what they want to hear is literally one of the best ways to make money quick.

>>19477369
>R. Scott Bakker made a better effort defending genre fantasy
That nigger is one of the reason why people don’t take fantasy serious.

It's interesting that despite all the fantasy shit ripping off Tolkien, it's always at the superficial level. No Fantasy book starts with some bumbling toking manlet worrying about his relatives knicking the silverware for the entire first quarter. Or is written in a way to purposefully emulate the emotionless medieval style, or feature a deliberately pacifist character. It's all just action schlock for retards except the action babes use arrows and have pointy ears.

I don't even like Tolkien that much, but it's clear there's a huge divide between him and his derivatives.

>>19477860
>those thousand pages series are full of very bad subplots that should not be there if the author was really interested in writing something great instead of just pumping a 3000+ page behemoth.
I'm looking at you, Jordan. But yes, any genre can be serious literature if the author is a serious writer. There's no reason why fantasy can't have great prose and deal with serious ideas. It's just easer to pump out trash and, as we all know, genre readers are voracious and will happily eat up whatever's fed to them.

As an aspiring fantasy writer, my models are fantasy authors like Terry Goodkind who wrote great fantasy with serious philosophical and emotional themes. Personally, I'm aiming for a point somewhere between Goodkind and McCarthy. I'm sure I'll fall far short of each but even the attempt will put me well above the vast majority of fantasy being published today.

>>19479812
Liberal political parties are right wing in everywhere but the US

>>19480650
So?

>>19480650
You can call them right wing but historically it doesn't make any sense at all. I think a great trick has been played on people by the revolutionaries who managed to trap people in a choice of different types of leftism. I still don't know why my head is supposed to explode.

>>19480373
This may have been the direction I'm looking for. I always wanted to tell fantasy stories in the Howard tradition of brutality, but they felt hollow and unsellable.

>>19478156
>in Christian vocabulary: heretical
Holy fucking cringe and illiterate pilled. Faggots are a disease on this earth.

yo read this shit

>>19476953
Kek

He seems more like a /lit/fag trying to look normal and failing horribly

>>19476944
Funny thing is, rothfuss himself doesn't take it seriously, otherwise he'd have finished his goddamn trilogy

>>19479302
>Worldbuilding should be in service of the plot
In some cases maybe but not in all. Tolkien built out the world of his stories well before he started writing any of his novels and they’re stronger for it. I prefer the more mysterious worlds as well but in some cases the universe itself is the main appeal.
I should also say, I think there’s a difference between having a strong world and over explaining every detail.
>>19479515
Fantasy existed before Tolkien but Tolkien popularized the modern standard for fantasy where another world with it's own unique races, history, and lore is created that is completely alien from our own. Even guys like Howard had the caveat that their world took place in some prehistoric time.
>>19479623
I haven't read this guy but this pic makes me want to.

>>19480016
Anyone can have an opinion on what is and isn't literature anon. It's weird to get this angry at a harmless blog.

>>19479809
The only truly right-wing position is monarchist.

>>19478062
Right wing isn't against immigration, it's against /illegal/ immigration. It's not against trannies, it's against them claiming they can rewrite reality to fit their delusions. It's anti communist but it fucking should be.

>>19480571
>Terry Goodkind
https://goodkindsucks.blogspot.com/2018/09/goodkind-plagiarist.html

>>19480368
>tolkien intended escapism
wrong

>>19476944
Is Patrick the epitome of city dwelling bugman who grows a beard and that is his personality? The general thing bugmen have is either Patrick's smug look or the basedface.

>>19476944
don't know but patrick is a serious cuck. he even wrote that into the only two novels he published. the self insert maincharacter is gaga over some dumb whore. but... they have a connection... and it doesn't require sex

>>19481868
One of the reasons he cited that he couldn't finish his book was because Donald Trump's presidency was stressing him out too much

>>19481872
was it a self insert or a carefully inserted parody

>>19481875
Seriously? Link please.
He hasnt published a book for almost ten years.

>>19477538
Terry Goodkind, no?

>>19481068
This is nothing other than some seething wheel of time fan. Taking world elements from other stories is not plagiarism. He's just mad because Terry Goodkind trashed his favorite author. Pathetic!

>>19476992
stop caring what women think. sex is for you. if they are attracted to you enough, they will put up with anything

>>19481881
https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2017/02/what-were-doing-how-were-coping/

>>19476992
>>19477017
>>19477053

i think what it means is that it is natural to hate lying whores. it takes study and skill to love cum dumpsters with all their flaws.

>>19481886
I really really tried to read Terry's The Wizard's First Rule but oh my god that book doesnt hold up to any standards of writing and as much as I dont mind books having underlying political themes, Terry just couldnt but put his Ayn Rand rant all over the place.

I just couldnt finish the book so I dropped it. The list of flaws of that books is too big to start going over here.

>>19481897
really makes you think what kind of people are able to write bestselling novels

>>19477805
the guy that wrote those sex slave stories gor or tor or something; he says he was black listed so that's why there are no more stories

>>19481900
>really makes you think what kind of people are able to write bestselling novels
"Best selling novelist" has become a thing in of itself, a title used to give elevated status to "thinkers". The content of the stories don't matter, only the identity of the author themselves.

>>19477372
School teachers.

>>19481916
If you wanna get published you better start using a gender neutral pseudonym

>>19478910
t.patrick cuckfuss

Reading this thread I can safely conclude I am a happy man knowing I never read Rothfuss.

>>19479800
was donner the name of his cuck waifu? i forget the name of that dirty noble cock sucking cum dumpster

>>19481940
>Reading a leftist author
You have to go back to whatever subreddit you crawled from.

>>19481891
Jesus the amount of cope. You really cant be a leftist and be a productive citizen as all your time goes to being woke.

>>19481948
Some authors dont insert their politics into their books.

>>19480016
it's even worse than that anon. he had a completed draft for the third book finished in like a year. he received negative feedback and has been working on fixing it ever since. i think he wrote himself into a corner and doesn't know how to write himself out of it without the last book becoming stupid

>>19481953
And Bakker insert his politics in his books.

>>19476944
this guy's book sucks i couldn't make it 10 pages before the prose got too irritating to read

>>19481876
t.patrick cuckfuss

>>19481953
>Bakker
>Self-professed male feminist and far-leftist whose books states that all masculinity is inherently toxic masculinity
>Doesn't insert his politics into his books.

>>19481953
is that bam bam bigelow?

>>19481976
I see another who got filtered.

>>19481976
i don't know how you can read the books and not think the various men's actions as cool and justified

>>19481976
You forgot the cuckold scenes. What is it with leftist always injecting sex into everything.

>>19481985

>>19479890
Good shit vs dog shit

>>19482002
>What is it with leftist always injecting sex into everything.
I think only Americanized leftoids are obsessed with sex before everything else.

>>19482002
I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the story and narrative related reasons for all the sex scenes. Maybe you should read the books again (if you ever did).

>>19482016
Because they're slaves to their desire and have nothing else to give their existence meaning

>>19481976
Hmm?

>>19482072
>>19481976
hmm?

>>19482039
That would explain Bakker’s obsession.

>>19482084
>>19482072
>>19481976
Hmm?

>>19482072
>>19482084
>>19482095
We get it, Bakker is a shit writer. It's been known for a while now.

>>19482072
>>19482084
>>19482095
Funny how a "leftist" and a "feminist" author writes a good that gets women so mad about it.

>>19482107
can you explain how

>>19481940
>Bakker
You know, I actually got meme'd into reading this shit, soon realized that the author self-inserts as the Gary Stu and dropped it. Don’t know why you fags praise it so much.

>>19482125
This is a common misconception. Bakker has said it himself as well that his self insert is not Kellhus but Achamian. I'm sorry you didn't understand the books.

>>19482039
Explain.

>>19482133
It's the same reason why they're so obsessed with Racism, homosexuality and transsexualism

>>19476944
>Thread is about Rothfuss
>Somehow devolved into Bakker
Are Bakkerfags really that insecure?

>>19482154
No one cares about Rothfuss.

>>19481944
I think it was Denna but yeah haha

>>19482178
And no one cares about your reddit author.

Isn't this serious lit and fantasy?

Now, I don’t mean this as an insult or as a fedora m’lady type comment, but aren’t Paradise Lost or The Divine Comedy both basically fantasy narratives and yet also ‘serious’ literature?

We could go one step further and ask whether the most serious book of all, The Bible, isn’t a collection of fantasy stories. And yet it changed the world.

Whether you believe in it or not, the facts remain the same. I think good fantasy can be excellent literature, because it can problematise issues that don’t come up in realist literature (by definition some can’t). In a sense, when various philosophers have come up with theoretical exercises to discuss a topic (such as the veil of ignorance, the brain in a vat scenario, the evil demon, that one about whether justified true belief is the same as ‘knowing’, etc.), those often come across as ‘fantasy’ stories.

The issue is one of terminology, ‘fantasy’ novels make people think of elves and orcs and D&D. And similarly to horror films, when one comes out that transcends the general schlock, critics want to put it into another genre, calling it a ‘psychological thriller’ and so on. Fantasy that is better than the usual gets put into the ‘literary fiction’ genre (see Borges) or gets termed ‘magical realism’ or whatever else the critics choose to come up with so they don’t have to call it fantasy, what with it not containing orcs and elves.

So, as with everything in life, in theory greatness is possible, in reality you have to deal with a lot of Rothfusses

>>19476944
how did this guys books get so popular and well regarded? they're awful, even by mainstream standards

>>19482298
Nice effort post. Same it’s wasted.

>>19482317
it's not wasted, you and i read it

>>19482298
Wasted effort, I have not read it and so I will post this reply to it. Next, I will read it and give it no further replies.

Modern fantasy was born and died with Tolkien. Anything after him is derivative vomit produced by and for our decadent and escapism-starved dystopian civilization.
>B-but Pratchett
Derivative deconstruction of an already exhausted genre. No literary value at all
>b-but rothfuss
See above. Also written by a borderline egomaniacal redditor
>b-but Bakker, Martin, Abercrombie, ding dung peepeee poopoo (insert another anglo surname here)
Kill yourself

>>19482339
Tolkien was a hack who ruined fantasy
>zoomers will seethe

>>19482339
Based.

Just accept you're reading the literary equivalent of super hero movies and move on. At least own it. Nothing stops you from moving on to more serious literature, yet you're still stuck reading rehashed stories about dragons and swords. At the very least go read actual medieval literature or something, at least it has some value to it.

I was going to write an effort post, but instead you get this one.

>>19482095
>The Patriarchy's Thesaurus
We get it, you're insufferable to be around, bitch

>>19482350
Poor homo bait

>>19482431
fantasy was a better genre before hacks like tolkien ruined it and spawned more hack 5000 page "epics"

>>19482441
>it's THEIR fault people ripped them off
Absolute smoothbrain take. I am surprised you've mastered enough of a language to post such idiocy.

>>19482298
I can't tell if you're trolling or got lost on your way to reddit, so bravo for that. What I want to know is what they're teaching people in schools these days that gives them the ability to say so much without saying anything of use at all.
I'll address some points, because while I'm almost 99% sure this is bait, it does contain some legitimately held beliefs among the reddit rabble. Like:
>And similarly to horror films, when one comes out that transcends the general schlock,
Can you even name one? Hereditary is often sighted, but one of the biggest points against the film brought up by critics is the fact it slips into the cheap horror tropes at the climax.
There's other examples, but you might not even be real so why bother. Fantasy probably won't ever be serious literature because its biggest writers have a very hard time taking criticism, which is a general problem of genre fiction in general; in order to write a literary story you need to at least try to engage with a huge volume of human story telling, and you need to challenge your beliefs in order to understand them, and if you can't understand them, humbly accept that in some sphere you're ignorant and they're beyond you (you can still be a great writer and a dumbfuck, imo, but you have to be aware of your dumbfuckery for this to be the case). It requires an intellectual, and more importantly, an emotional rigor that a lot of Fantasy/genre readers are not capable of. When challenged, they will always return to their teddy bears, and they can always board up their shortcomings with sensationalized ideas that contribute nothing to the story or say anything at all.

>>19482460
You haven’t really addressed any of the points I made, I’m not sure what you’re so angry about. Regarding the horror films, Hereditary is very much the regular schlock and was treated as such by many critics, besides the obvious articles about the representation of trauma in the film and so on. I was thinking more for example about the academic discussion around Silence of the Lambs when that came out. Many critics tried to spin it as a feminist film, or apply some psycho-sexual reading onto it. But it is a genuine horror film that critics and academics tried to pulled away from the genre.

Note that I’m not saying these films are necessarily good or bad, just making an observation about how these films get discussed. I think a similar thing happens to some fantasy books/stories. When they’re ‘good’ in the sense that they capture the imagination of people other than the usual sword and sorcery fans, it must be because it’s not ACTUAL fantasy, it’s better than that.

>>19482532
Lol I can't hurt you, there are no usernames or IPs here so you don't need to walk back your opinions just because I disagree with them. Either way, there was no academic discussion over Silence of the Lambs, that's just a lie. Sword and sorcery is also distinct from Fantasy as a genre, so I'm not quite sure you even know what you're talking about.

>>19482563
you're not even addressing what he's saying, you're just being a smug cunt

>>19482566
There's no karma here either, so you don't need to pretend to be someone else to disagree with me more passionatel

>>19482566
I have no clue what he’s talking about at this point, but anyway I hope others understood what I was trying to say.

>>19482571
like i said, a smug cunt

>>19482580
>>19482576
baby boy aboowobooowooo :)

>>19477747
>Blood meridian is much better written and tackles more serious issues than LOTR

>>19482662
>Blood Meridian
Literally who?

>>19481888
You might not be wrong but it always feels weird to me to read comments like this, in a place like this. It's like someone who has never been in a fight and doesn't even exercise telling me how to knock someone out with a tornado kick in a street fight.

>>19482298
Yeah, I mean, The Iliad. True.

>>19477527
>because Dostoevsky is an actually great writer with skill
>skill
I agree with the depth and passion part but his prose is garbage

>>19482339
Incredible how much information about your reading habits one can gather from a single post.

>>19482864
I have yet to see a single person say this who actually reads Russian. You idiots read translations and think you're judging the original authors prose. Do you even know what prose is?

>>19481940
Based.

>>19478156
>proper lit
die

>>19482858
In my experience most people on 4chan have had sex, or at least have reached one of the bases on the way to sex. There's a certain degree of surly autism that contrary to popular opinion women do find attractive. Get a 5'2 hunched back 19 year old no chin balding man with a beer gut and fucked up teeth, but make him brash, and there will be a woman who will fuck him.

>>19482982
>In my experience most people on 4chan have had sex
you've fucked that many dudes?

>>19482662
>tfw you know one tolkienfag will always be offended on behalf of fantasytards.

>>19479441
Only Tolkientards consider him "great literature".

>>19482994
yeah babe you want some sugar too?

>>19482873
Nabokov could and he savaged him. Other Russians also acknowledge his lack of writing skill, yet they still love him.

>>19483049
I hope you don't take Nabokov's critical caprices too seriously.
As for the other Russians, can you give some more examples?
E.g. I read Russian, and find his style very interesting - chaotic, messy, but absolutely unique and irreplaceable.

>>19482982
>In my experience most people on 4chan have had sex
To continue my analogy, that's like saying in my experience most people have thrown a punch. Yeah no shit we've had sex. People blunder their way into sex every day, it's a bodily function. Women do half the work or more. It doesn't qualify you to give advice.

>>19482900
>Eânna
>Zeûm
Tell me that isn't an actual fantasy map

>>19477527
>>19476944
fantasy doesn’t need to prove itself because it’s a far older genre than people assume, the problem is post Tolkien rip offs which fixate on world building while never stopping their sucking on Tolkien’s teat, however older fantasy such as Dunsany is both in terms of prose style and conception far more than equal with any other serious lit, and if we extend the lineage of fantasy to include the “fairy-way of writing “ then it becomes the most ancient genre, having mythology and all of the epics married to it, but if we must begin it with a false mythology then the popularizer is Dunsany, but ignoring him Macdonald, eddison, Lewis Carroll and many others are all good fantasy, they simply don’t resemble modern fantasy because they are truly fantastical, truly born out of the imagination of these individual writers, with all of the power of myth, high quality prose and all other considerations that prove them higher literature. The problem is solely that Tolkien consumed the majority of the genre by name.

>>19483049
Stop being a parrot and think for yourself.

>>19483583
If i could read Russian, i would.

>>19483209
Sadly, it is.

>>19480942
> Tolkien popularized the modern standard for fantasy where another world with it's own unique races, history, and lore is created that is completely alien from our own.

So Tolkien killed the fantasy genre?

Rothfuss' fame, such as it was, is strange to behold. It's like living in a timeline where Chuck Wendig is acclaimed.

>>19483583
>Stop being a parrot and think for yourself.
Never heard that one before..

It can be. Mason and Dixon has some fantasy elements but fantasy isn't the first word I'd use to describe it. I don't really care either way and I don't really think it matters in general

i was just at my great aunt's house going through her books and among the boxes of slavic literature and poetry (she studied slavic languages in college and worked in the library of congress) were a bunch of books by van gulik and simenon. i mentioned them to her and her first reaction was to talk about how great they were. she let me borrow one book from each of those two authors, and refused to lend me any of her anthologies of soviet short stories or works of comenius.

>>19477747
I sort of agree with you anon but I will say you're wrong to imply Lord of the Rings takes place in our universe. Tolkien himself referred to Arda as a "second world."
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Secondary_world#:~:text=Secondary%20world%20is%20a%20term,legendarium%20is%20Tolkien's%20Secondary%20World.
>>19482662
Tolkien is literally my second favorite author and I consider him as important to the literary canon as Melville, but Blood Meridian is a better book.

>>19483948
Why?

>>19484048
"Never heard that one before" is often repeated too. I'm not telling you to be original. I'm telling you to stop taking other peoples opinions on things you know nothing about and trying to pass them off as your own. You should feel like an idiot right now for trying to talk about Dostoevsky's prose without knowing a hint of Russian.

>>19484207
Because Bakker is a shit storyteller.

>>19484287
Because of some random ass names?

LOL

>>19484287
No, not really.
Quite the opposite.

>>19484287
He really is. Bakker is the Sanderson of try hard pretentious authors. Try reading actual good authors like Poul Anderson, Zelazny, Vance, Tolkien, and Dunsany.

>>19484294
Place names have meaning and tell a story. Tolkien knew this well.

>>19484321
Looks like you got filtered.

>>19484342
They really did. Just look at the post above yours.

>>19484342
>Not wanting to read shit means you got filtered.
No, thanks. I’ll rather read good authors and books.

>>19484369
I accept your defeat.

>>19476944
This guy's book is the one and only book that legitimately made me angry for how shitty it was. It's not so bad it's good, it's not mediocre, it's not just bad and forgettable, it's terrible and bland but with this pretentious pomp. This man is like the Joss Whedon of writing, but less creative, less skilled, less honest which is baffling. The book feels as if someone's shitty D&D character backstory had been greenlit into a shitty novel ghostwritten by DeviantART fanfiction writers.

>>19484321
>Poul Anderson, Zelazny, Vance, Tolkien, and Dunsany.
Those are some nice recommendations.

>>19484321
Tolkien wasn't very good, unironically.

>>19484369
>I'll rather
You can't even write proper English.

>>19480385
Only here. People generally don't know who he is

>>19476953
>>For the next seven years Pat studied anthropology, philosophy, eastern religions, the blade, history, alchemy, parapsychology, literature, and writing. He studied six different martial arts, practiced improv comedy, learned how to pick locks, and became a skilled lover of women.
Unironically jelly. What better way to spend your life than learning new stuff all the time?

>>19476953
>r-reddit!
Sounds based desu

fantasy escapism
>NOOOO THATS IMATURE DAY DREAMING
non-fiction of equal artifice and intent
>HOLY MOLY CHEESE AND CRACKERS THIS IS SOOO DEEP

>>19482130
He can say whatever he wants, this reads like a 13 year olds fantasy
>I can read your mind by looking at the expression of your face
Lmao

You really need to work on your grammar.

>>19484505
>>I can read your mind by looking at the expression of your face
He never did recover from the humiliation his old professor subjected him to.

>>19484565
>Electronically Balkanized Society
What the fuck is this faggot trying to say?

>>19481985
>main character of first trilogy is gay Barbarian who becomes aware of his destructive nationalistic views that lead him to try and integrate with his homophobic people
>nationalism is constantly described as ignorant
>one of main characters of second trilogy is a blonde twink who gets blacked
>core theme of the series is about valuing “doubt in your beliefs and having compassion for enemies”
>a long monologue in 2nd book by a man who has a near godly intellect about how women are equal to men. Goes on to teach sorcery for women in second trilogy.
>most powerful god is a woman (Yatwer)
Bakker is inserting his leftist politics in his stories.

>>19476944
He's jewish isn't he?

>Rothfuss thread
>Somehow a Bakker thread

Literally rent free

>>19481915
Gor. The first book is a good read.

The rest is just masturbation.

>>19484676
>nationalism is constantly described as ignorant
God, I hate Canadians.

>>19482900
I just started with Bakker and I'm having a lot of fun.

i've been meaning to ask this question for a while, but what are some literary books that blend genres? e.g here's a few of the top of my head (some also mentioned itt):
>crime and punishment (thriller)
>brothers karamazov (mystery)
>blood meridian (western)
>moby dick (adventure)
>gravity's rainbow (sci-fi)
>war and peace (historical)
>lord of the rings (fantasy)

my criteria for categorizing something in a particular genre only considers whether or not the work engages with the expectations common to that genre. e.g mystery novels usually revolve around the identity of a murderer, while in science fiction, there's an expectation of technology playing some part in the plot (whether real or fictional) and some kind of explanation of the "rules" of that technology. i think such a list might be useful to aspiring genre writers who can study these works to see how the best writers utilized these expectations to write something fresh.

>>19484676
>Nationalism bad and evil
I wouldn’t mind lefties so much if they change their playbook every now and again. At this point, it’s the same tired old bullshit with them.

>>19482072
And GRRM is a feminist who writes about past female leaders being cool, competent and badass, and paints every current female leader as a retarded whore incapable of thinking past her tits and using anything other than her pussy to get what she wants, and has people killed out of sheer cuntery rather than any tangible reason, and alien to the idea of actions having consequences.

His old stories have the element of old leftism though.

>>19484750
why aspire to a genre? Why not just try to write an interesting story?

>>19482339
>>B-but Pratchett
>Derivative deconstruction of an already exhausted genre. No literary value at all
Pratchett also has the issue of forgetting to describes transitions to and from locations and scenes. From his earliest works onwards.

One moment they have a miracle replicate food machine and are fixing it, the next it is missing or completely broken and it isn't made clear so suddenly the violent alien cannibal is going into starvation mode.

>>19484676
Virtually all of what you said is incorrect.

>>19484676
Virtually all of what you said is correct.

>>19484007
>So Tolkien killed the fantasy genre?
No. The people aping him did.

>>19484608
>>19484565
He meant atomized but he didn't want to be confused with someone good at math

>>19484777
i think all writers want to write something interesting, it's just a question of how. no one aspires to genre but genre provides a means for creating something interesting via the expectations inherent to it. it's a common ground that you can play around and experiment with--not to mention that modern publishing absolutely requires genre for marketing purposes.

>>19482298
The difference between the divine comedy and modern garbage fantasy is the divine comedy takes place in reality. While most fantasy, like Name of the Wind, do not take place in reality. Even Virgil and Homer wrote their poems thinking they were depicting reality.

In modern fantasy the story doesn't take place in reality. It takes place in a world made up by the author. This world is never as interesting as reality. I don't care how good an author is at world-building. Great authors never world-build, they just observe the world.

>>19484565
The dude sounds based desu
>>19484608
>>19484845
Atomized and balkanized are not perfect synonyms desu

>>19484830
No, he did see:>>19484853

>>19484865
>The dude sounds based desu
Ah yes, because acting like a woman is so based.
>After swearing under my breath
No different than those tumblr blogs.

>>19484853
By that argument, Harry Potter is better than Gormenghast. I think the real difference just comes down to what the authors read and studied. Peake, for example, read Dickens. Dante was educated in the classics. Rothfuss read dimestore novels and comic books.

>>19482298
>fedora m’lady type comment
???
>>19484853
>the divine comedy takes place in reality
t. didn't read the first two (2 verses) of the Comedy.

>>19484884
>women swear under their breath
Go out more

>>19484884
you sound resentful

>>19484884
>No different than those tumblr blogs.
Hey, at the very least the tumblr blogs were humorous to look at. Bakker's blog is just sad and pathetic.

>>19484816
Doesn't matter really. All that matters is that Bakker keeps getting posted.

>>19484873
>one guy did it and everyone copied him, that's why its rubbish now
So...its the same argument

>>19476944
I mean not serious literature in the way The Brothers Karamazov is serious literature but I think there's merit sure. Idk I think it's just a feature of the English language but I think it presumes it's an either/or thing. Like you're either Sewious Witawature or whatever the fuck Ernest Cline is trying to accomplish

Fantasy has a lot of creative potential that's kneecapped by living under Tolkien's shadow. It's very derivative, a lot of it's just male power fantasies as well which while fine is just... very boring. Vapid.

But fantasy as a thing can have an interesting, rich poetic metaphorical thing going on for it. I also wanna throw out the idea that something doesn't have to be substantive to have redeeming qualities and I say this with a heavy heart because that's also what people who buy funko pops say because normies which nerds are at this point are hedonistic as fuck but anyways everything sucks forever and I hope we all die

>>19476944
>Fantasy as Serious Literature
There's a name for that already, it's called "Fiction".

>>19484889
Gormenghast probably isn't great literature and neither is Harry Potter. Is there any magic in Gormenghast? I haven't read it.

>>19484936
You know what I mean faggot. It has a metaphysics that is supposed to be our actual metaphysics. Modern Fantasy doesn't have that.

>>19485032
Tolkien wasn't that good to begin with. People only liked it back then because they desperate wanted to escape the real world because of the World Wars. If Rothfuss were around then he would have been praised

>>19485137
People still aped its success, regardless of how you feel about it. You can't really blame someone for ruining a genre when people have specifically set out to try and emulate his entire schtick. The immense world-building and autismo level of history was his personal project, remember, not a requirement of his story.
>If Rothfuss were around then he would have been praised
Doubtful.

>>19476953
>Something of a class clown
He probably says "Hmm, yes, that will do nicely" when he's offered food at other peoples' houses.

>>19485190
I haven't read much fantasy before Tolkien other than The Runenberg. Was there anyone before Tolkien who did autismo world-building to make a fantasy story?

>You can't really blame someone for ruining a genre when people have specifically set out to try and emulate his entire schtick.
Yes I can when his schtick doesn't represent reality, which is the goal of great literature.

>>19485253
>Yes I can when his schtick doesn't represent reality, which is the goal of great literature.
Subjective take. Arguably, you could take his themes, imagery and allusions and apply them to human nature and history.

>>19485271
>Subjective take. Arguably, you could take his themes, imagery and allusions and apply them to human nature and history.

Yeah and it's only a cunthair of the human nature and history I get when I read The Divine Comedy. Stop living in a fantasy.

>>19485122
>It has a metaphysics that is supposed to be our actual metaphysics.
You think Dante actually thought he knew how hell is structured? lmao

>>19485290
Yeah, considering he put his friends in hell for being as gay as you are.

>>19485283
>Stop living in a fantasy.
I'm not. I'm defending different tangent from you.

>>19485301
I don't even know what you're trying say here.

>>19485320
I was saying you can't blame Tolk for uninspired people ripping him off. It got a bit muddled with another debate.

>>19485329
I can because Tolkiens work and world-building was also mediocre. No one thinks LOTR is on par with The Aeneid.

>>19484936
What I meant by the fedora comment was that suggesting The Divine Comedy or the Bible to be ‘fantasy’ could be seen as a smug jab that one of those reddit atheist types might offer up, but it wasn’t intended that way.

>>19485341
>I can because Tolkiens work and world-building was also mediocre.
Who's your favorite author?

I hate reading and all of your favorite authors are overrated

>>19485638
Melville

>>19485704
Just on you, my author is obscure.

>>19484676
>core theme of the series
>having compassion for enemies
What the actual fuck lmao

>>19485449
>r-reddit atheist!
>the Church actually lives thanks to the fact that the results of the scientific research on the life of jesus are not made public!

Zur Methode der Leben-Jesu-Forschung
Hans Conzelmann
Zeitschrift für Theologie und Kirche
Zeitschrift für Theologie und Kirche
Vol. 56, Beiheft 1: Die Frage nach dem historischen Jesus (Oktober 1959), pp. 2-13 (12 pages)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43740014


The books. Read them.

>>19485734
Bakker is Canadian. So, it makes sense form his point of view.

>>19485716
Based

>>19485638
I think Melville, Pynchon, Nabokov, Dante (obviously), and Mussil are all great.

Tolkien is only good.

>>19485770
what's a good novel by pynch that isn't gravity's rainbow and what's one by nabo that isn't lolita and likewise melville and moby dick?

>>19485746
>"if you kill your enemies, they win"
Why are leafs so cuck?

>>19485783
Many such cases.

I personally really enjoyed The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man's Fear - I honestly enjoyed them far more than most of what I've read of WoT so far. What are people's issues with his work?

>>19486279
>What are people's issues with his work?
He's successful.

>>19485779
V.
Pale Fire
The Confidence Man.

>>19485783
It’s the end result of their liberal/leftist upbringing. You see the same shit with American leftist.

>>19486725
>American leftist.

>>19483624
Then don’t critique Dosto’s prose since it clearly way out of your element. Nabokov had many unorthodox opinions on literature so anything he says should be read carefully and not taken at face value like a dumb parrot.

>>19482072
>as if he were trying very hard to construct a 21st century masterpiece that mixes magic, apocalypse, war, graphic sex, and greco-roman metaphysics
Picked the fucke up

Lit loves Book of the new sun and Gene wolf wrote fantasy, so yes 8)

>>19481976
>Self-professed male feminist
There's no way he didn't say that facetiously, fuck you for even baiting my (You), stupid mumeifag

>>19488754
From his blog.
>I literally believe that women are marginally more trustworthy than men, more empathetic, more giving, more cooperative, more competent, more reliable…

>>19481940
based. bakker is the ultimate pleb filter, just look at the responses from all the btfo’d brainlets in this thread

>>19485779
I really hope you're joking
>good novel by pynch that isn't gravity's rainbow
Mason & Dixon, The Crying of Lot 49
>by nabo that isn't lolita
Pale Fire, Pnin, Signs and Symbols
>likewise melville and moby dick?
The Confidence Man, Redburn, Billy Budd, Israel Potter, almost all of Melville's novels are great in some way or another

>>19488781
Then why are his heroines so immoral? They literally think with their cunts, to the point that it disturbed me, and I'm a misogynist. I suppose you're probably right, but kinda funny in that case that his books are primarily enjoyed by anti-liberals who aren't influenced by them at all

>>19485122
>Gormenghast probably isn't great literature
>I haven't read it.
kek

>>19484676
Shouldn’t be surprised given the author’s political beliefs but god damn.

>19484676
this is by far the gayest /pol/baiting and most retarded wilful misinterpretation of bakker i’ve ever seen. no (You) for you

>>19484676
>>19488909

Is Susanna Clarke "serious literature"?

>>19488919
Compare to other fantasy writers of today? Yes.

>>19488813
it came out more cheeky than i intended; i was genuinely asking for reccs, not being facetious.

>>19477538
Arguably something like Salvatore's Drizzt novels are conservative, they're not just the "CVCK CVCK CVCK killing everyone different and destroying the environment is based" caricature you see on 4chan

>>19487934
Why are dostocucks always so insecure and dumb? Nabokov is correct, his prose is trash, in russian too.

>>19477602
>Realism is the death of art
redditor opinion. go play video games

>>19480368
had a stroke trying to read this nonsense

Why did I thing that a board about literature would be any better than any other board on this shithole site.

>>19478156
writing a lot doesn't make you smart

>>19480942
>Even guys like Howard had the caveat that their world took place in some prehistoric time.
lotr is set on earth in the past, retard

>>19481976
looks like you made bakker mad

>>19485122
>Gormenghast probably isn't great literature
>I haven't read it
Leddit isn't sending their best

>>19476978
>>For the next seven years Pat studied... the blade
>I thought that was supposed to be a joke why would he write that in his own bio?
Why does any neckbeard pose with a katana and trenchcoat.

They're pretending to do it ironically but secretly believe it makes them look cool. It's the male equivalent of a thot posing in a bikini while sitting in front of computer with an open spreadsheet, "LOL, look at what a nerd I am guys!"

>>19489089
I actually wouldn't doubt it. The guy legitimately thinks he's a misunderstood genius. Which is nothing more than a cope since he failed at philosophy, then he failed at neuroscience, and now he failed at fantasy.

>>19476944
What is that look intended to convey?

>>19489359
>Failed philosopher goes to write genre fiction
I really hate this so much.

>>19484750
Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 are both science fiction.
>>19484853
>This world is never as interesting as reality
I think you're completely wrong about that anon. Art is interesting because it's the world filtered through another person's brain. If observing reality is all you want from lit than no literature would be better than going out and looking at the world.
>>19485137
I haven't read Rothfuss so I suppose I can't say but there's something special about Tolkien that other authors really haven't captured. It's not just a matter of him coming first he's still the undisputed best.

>>19489458
>there's something special about Tolkien
Tolkein was an Oxford professor of linguistics and was an expert in European languages and mythologies. The lore of LOTR comes from a genuine understanding of myths. The conflict between industry and nature comes from seeing the decline of the rural England he grew up with. The views on war and bravery come from fighting in WWI and seeing the courage of the common British soldier. Tolkein was a smart guy with genuine interests and life experiences. The average fantasy author is either trying to recapture the feeling they had reading a fantasy novel they liked or attempting a deconstruction of a fantasy novel they didn't like.

>>19489458
>I think you're completely wrong about that anon. Art is interesting because it's the world filtered through another person's brain. If observing reality is all you want from lit than no literature would be better than going out and looking at the world.
Not the anon you're responding too, but I think it might be better to say that books which engage with reality are most interesting than books that don't. I would say that many fantasy novels don't engage with reality at all; in fact, escapism is one of the things many of the people who write in that genre hold to.
Funnily enough, there's a Tolkien quote where he said that escapism is the duty of the prisoner or whatever, but Tolkien never actually said this, it's a made up quote, he actually believed that the genre of stories he wrote were not escapism, which is an important distinction for him to make, and probably part of what made his work stand out.
>>19484750
All of the works you mention engage with reality. They might fit into genres, but all of the authors set out to say something about reality with rigorous intention. Cormac McCarthy shows babies being beat against rocks not just because he wants to shock the viewer, but because he's depicting man in an act of violence spoken of in many old scriptures, and thus illustrating violence as a primal feature of man.
GRRM includes sex and rape in his novels because it's his idea of "realism", he is not setting out to engage with reality, but instead he is trying to assert his idea of reality because he is an intellectually immature ape.

>>19482072
This review honestly makes me respect the intelligence of both the author and the reviewer at the same time, despite that she is probably a lesbian with not many male friends except for her impotent academic co-workers who are accustom to being steamrolled by her criticisms of male thought (which she is conflicted by her admiration for).

>>19489425
It was the only way Bakker could get his reddit philosophy out there.

>>19489546
On the topic of escapism, I think there's some nuance to be had. For me it's not the dragon that makes a story unrealistic, but that the dragon has no meaning beyond the escapistic (as in, you're reading just for the fun of imagining a knight slaying a dragon or something). But if the dragon is portrayed in a way that corresponds to or represents something in reality that matters to me, then in a way it is "reality-relevant" (for the lack of a better word, and which is different from "realistic").