/lit/ - Literature

>>19480435
Artistic drive and creation can only bloom under the acceptance of reality. Learn the definition of nihilism first before regurgitating shitty bait-esque statement like this.

>>19480477
>Artistic drive and creation can only bloom under the acceptance of reality.
Yes, which is what Christianity lacks. Antithesis of spirit and matter, which exists in neither paganism nor in most non-Abrahamic religions (Neoplatonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism etc.), turns Christianity into the quintessential self-destructive teaching which eventually does reject material reality.

>>19480435
>self-transformation
Spotted the american

>>19480519
>adheres to obscure post modern gnosis-atheism
>projects own retardation on Christianity
The man is literally laughing at you.

Really? Then let's see your life and how you've "transformed" yourself. Let's see one true ubermensch who's performed proper transvaluation and isn't enslaved by spooks.
Every single admirer of Nietzsche I've met on campus ultimately has the same ultracucked psyche and won't dare use a Nietzschean antagonism of the morality of their time. They don't want to lose their job or place in society. Real "ubermensch" and masters of their destiny, constantly reinterpreting Neetzsche in a way that conveniently justifies their pedestrian worldview.

>>19480435
Based

>>19480435
A failure at both life and philosophy, relentless megalomania without ability. Nietzsche never bothered with a proper refutation so he doesn’t deserve one.

>>19480519
Meanwhile Christian art is the greatest in the world.

>>19481135
>Christian art
No Christian has ever made art because there was only ever one Christian, and he died on the cross.

>>19481268
misinterpreted that idea completely, or you've understood it and are just making a useless point.

>>19481135
I agree, "Piss Christ" is pretty kino

>>19481275
My point is that Christianity never had anything to do with any art produced in history.

>>19481284

>>19481293
Italian genes immersed in Renaissance-era culture made that.

>>19481302
I don't even know what to say honestly.

>>19481302
JAJAJAJAJAJA

>>19481308
Don't say anything. No Christian gene = no Christian art.

>>19480435
Explain how "le superman" isn't an empty abstraction

>>19480435
Childhood is idolising Nietzsche.
Adulthood is realising Russell was right.
"Power fantasies of an invalid"

>>19481325
>genes and intellect are just abstractions bro

>>19481302
Renaissance culture is Christian culture.

>>19481373

>the worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops; they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder and revile the whole.

ohnonono goodreadsbros...we got too cocky...

>>19481135
It's shit. It's just a fucking vain recreation of reality which completely lacks any sort of spiritual dimension.

>>19481329
Russell was a midwit retard who paled in comparison to Wittgenstein. Like have you even seen his implied take on Plato in History of Western Philosophy? Full of ressentiment as well.

>>19481135
There is no Genre or period in Art History that is "Christian Art". There is no technique that Christian in Art either. You mean "Art depicting Christian subjects". Flemish paintings are very different from The Italian ones, yet all of them depict Christian subject matter. Are Gerhard Richters church windows Christian Art? Where do you draw the line?

>>19481302
Just flat out say youre baiting next time. Anons will still fall for it

>>19480435
> believes a degenerate atheist whoremonger that died of stds instead of believing the Bible

How can you think you are intelligent is beyond me

>>19480435
"Logocentric trannies"
Wdhmbt

>Nietzsche is one of the few philosophers that offer the individual the tools necessary for self-transformation
Damn so it’s necessary?

>>19480435
your post is a bait at 'christcucks'. and being lame it plays right into 'christcucks' side; they'll respond feeling morally superior and the lethe-generating shitshow will ensue.

you, sir, are the worm hands.

>>19480435
>Logocentric trannies
Trannies are literally a product of the Nietzschean transvaluation of values. The modern left owes more to Nietzsche than to Marx regardless of what conservatards say.

>>19483280
>they'll respond feeling morally superior
that's the premise of their entire existence. see >>19483268

>>19483295
oops meant >>19483197

>>19483295
I would argue that the true basis of christcuckery is feeling morally abysmal and wanting to be saved. I was reading John Donne's little essays the other night because someone referenced one here and in one of the first ones he puts very well the state of quasi-panicked distress involved in being completely incapable of not sinning while knowing it is wrong. Not that I am a christcuck.

>>19483295
>>19483300
it is not 'based neetch-enthusiasts vs cringe cuck-morality', it is the dialectic entrapment moment. OP is conjuring an energy, it responds: the sameness reacts to itself lowering awareness of the plateau.

>>19483337

>>19483291
Not at all. Trannies are a direct product of humanism and Anglo positivism, both of which are opposed to Nietzschean philosophy and take root in Christianity. Transvaluation doesn't solely imply nihilism and rejection of pseudo-traditional values, as both had been around for several decades or even longer before Nietzsche ever published anything. The essence of transvaluation consists in viewing all values in the light of sentiment and ressentiment, and eventually proclaiming the primacy of nobility and potentiality. Trannies definitely align with the mindset of ressentiment as they find themselves incapable of realising themselves within the given biological reality and turn to self-destruction.

>>19483316
>quasi-panicked distress involved in being completely incapable of not sinning while knowing it is wrong

Its not panicking is quite liberating to know that despite your inherent flaws and fallen nature there is a God that will take you on and help you and in the end he will save you from damnation. To be a Christian is to have peace with yourself and the world. It is just amazing how much gutter shit philosophy is considered intelligent these days, in the end people believe what they want to justify they wickedness.

>>19483352
>Anglo positivism
Popper was an Austrian Jew, Comte and Durkheim were frogs, Schlick and Carnap were German, etc.

Empiricism on the other hand, which positivism mangled beyond recognition, was actually Anglo: Bacon, Hobbes, Locke, Berkeley, Hume, etc

>>19483385
>Empiricism on the other hand, which positivism mangled beyond recognition
Whose help with do you think they did so, if not Mill's, Spencer's, etc.?

>>19483380
I assure you the mini essay in question is of an anxious nature, and Donne's Christian credentials are hardly in dispute unless you're over zealous about denomination. It's the very first expostulation in his Devotions if you want to read it.

>>19483412
>you're over zealous about denomination
Imo you have to be because most denominations have a wrong interpretation of the Bible. Imo, after reading the Bible, the baptists are the most faithful denomination. There is a short book with a brief explanation on the history of the anabapstists, Its called Trial of blood by Carroll.

>>19483467
Well I'm not a Christian so my opinion doesnt count for much but looking in from the outside you all seem somewhat similar to me. I mean you're all worshiping Christ and his behavior and teachings in the NT don't admit of that much ambiguity. You can pretty much tell when someone is sincerely trying to follow what he says, and sincerely believes he was and is God, and I don't see how theological quibbles are that relevant. Dumb people can't even understand the finer points but they presumably are saved if they believe in him.

>>19483499
>seem somewhat similar to me
>teachings in the NT don't admit of that much ambiguity
>they presumably are saved if they believe in him

There are big difference in doctrines, some denominations take verses out of context to justify all kind of absurd doctrines including salvation. There are all kinds of false Christians out there the most obvious is the catholics.

>>19483542
I know there are big differences but does anyone really believe it's ambiguous what Jesus was saying in terms of how you should behave towards others and how you should believe he was God? Where is the ambiguity in his commandment of humility, mercy, love etc these are dispositions of which everyone knows the meaning, even if their application to certain edge cases might be hard to figure out. You either try to follow this stuff or you don't. Nobody is going to get it perfect or figure out the one true system that accounts for everything surely, that would contradict the imperfect nature of humans.

>>19481293
God is sitting on a brain which resembles that man's thinking is the highest virtue, not religion nor faith. This was Michel Angelo's ridicule for the church for giving him such a hard task of painting the Sistine Chapel, because he knew they did this solely to burn him out and destroy him

>>19480435
>autistic drive
Art is dead

Everything about Nietzsche’s contributions to philosophy and culture is personified in the american nigger.
There is perhaps no public thinker more despicable.

>>19480435
I stopped reading philosophy after Nietzsche. He really is all I need. I still want to read the other Germans after him at some point but it isn't a priority.

>>19484430
western art peaked when it was directly influenced by Nietzsche (modernism)
stagnation that followed is a result of postmodernism, which at best intentionally misinterprets Nietzsche, and plainly renounces him at worst

>>19484581
>western art peaked when it was directly influenced by Nietzsche (modernism)
You deserve everything that's coming to you.

>>19484581
>western art peaked when it was directly influenced by Nietzsche (modernism)
This is some take kek

>>19484645
What's the problem here?
>>19484658
It's not a "take", it's an undisputed fact. Let's take poetry, for example. Medieval artists during the supreme reign of Christianity couldn't do so much as express the man's inseparable unity with the universe around him - or at the very least write one or two landscape verses, something that is intrinsic to and constitutes the very heart of all sorts of national epics, poetry of Antiquity and the East, etc. In other words, European art here clearly appears to be the sick man of the entire history. Your life-detesting preachings have detached the man from his nature so fucking much that it took more than a millennium for European artists to remember that art is far greater than just a shallow copy of material reality or an allegorical recreation of tedious scholastic systems. Romantics were the first who woke up to this; and modernists simply elaborated on their great achievements.

>>19484559
What other germans?

>>19484760
Even for someone of your comical bias I would have thought youd like the Renaissance

>>19484760
>What's the problem here?
(You)

>>19484802
>bias
Tbdesu it was the realisation of this fact that made me sympathetic towards Nietzsche, not the other way around. Not like I blame artists for their works being shit either, in many ways they simply couldn't ascend above the mindset that had been predominating several epochs before they were born and the one they lived in. The best of them even managed to take light steps towards the right direction, say, Ariosto is not so bad at times. But in general Renaissance was probably the quintessence of artistic superficial wankery, as it was marked by an illusory return to conventional Antique "forms" and images without breathing heathen vitality into them. Man's emancipation from his spirituality results in the birth of Renaissance realism - an open proclamation of empiricism's primacy over metaphorical content, and insectifying humanistic ideals develop into the complete loss of any ability for man to realise his inner potentiality. Sonnet 130 would probably be the symbolic embodiment of what I'm talking about.

>>19480519
Read Kierkegaard

>>19483291
Trannies are a product of Derridean hypocrisy.

>>19485080
how did he change anything? his whole philosophy signed the crisis of rationalism within Christianity but it didn't show any meaningful path to overcome the duality between Man and God, something both Nietzsche and religions I mentioned do

>>19480435
Chesterton was 100% on the money when he basically called Nietzsche a poet pretending to be a philosopher.

>>19486055
>>19486055
I don’t think he believed one could overcome this duality. But in the same sense that Nietzsche wanted to dispense with the idea of trying to find meaning and glean truths from purely theoretical “other worlds” beyond experience, Kierkegaard stressed that looking for evidence of a transcendent divinity in actuality is futile and that the “knight of faith” (basically his ubermensch) first accepts the lack of ideality and divine confirmation in life and expends his will full-heartedly in day-to-day action. It’s not explicitly said in Fear and Trembling but Kierkegaard conveys in his passages about the relationship between the Poet and the Hero (himself and Abraham) that, if from nothing else, meaning can be wrought from creative exercise, especially the depiction and immortalization of great deeds and people into beautiful and emotionally affecting art.

Who is the best translator of Nietzsche? People say Kaufmann inserts too much of his own shit into the translation, but is that true? Is that just because of his ethnic background? I checked the charts and could not find any input on this.

>>19483352
>The essence of transvaluation consists in viewing all values in the light of sentiment and ressentiment, and eventually proclaiming the primacy of nobility and potentiality. Trannies definitely align with the mindset of ressentiment as they find themselves incapable of realising themselves within the given biological reality and turn to self-destruction.
You've got it backwards. The transphobes are stuck in Christian slave-morality ressentiment at trannies who are overcoming the limitations of biology with their will to power. The choice is between death and transition, and they choose transition. The trannies are considered the most contemptible, weak, and diseased... which is why they have proved to be the most dangerous. Therefore, what is most contemptible, weak, and diseased must be multiplied.

The great inversion of values must again be repeated.

https://youtu.be/uERIXLWeik0

>>19481135
You don't love Christian art, you love the potential of the faustian soul that produced art inspired by the dominant spiritual feeling of Europe at the time

>>19486173
Based, poets are better than philosophers

One of the problems is that one definition of a Nietzschean is "a pretentious psychopath." It's hard to not laugh.

>>19486692
This is literally me tho

>>19480477
Artistic drive and creation are forms of innovation within a system, whether it is "reality" or not. Given that the history of art is a history of artifice, reality has very little bearing on its creation

Hey guys, (taking advantage of this thead) ill get into Nietzsche, could you recomend his best works? Where he best talks about ethics?

>>19483291
Trannies are a product of the metaphysics of presence (self-proximity of consciousness) which is logocentric in origin

Derrida was the last true Nietzschean

>>19484581
"Post-modernism" was an escape from the stagnation of academic formalism and in fact addresses the main concerns of modernism (decompartmentalise art and life, universalism) better than it did without the wanky representational hand-waving

>>19484760
>Romantics were the first who woke up to this;

It was common in the Renaissance and especially the academies - hence history painting was the grandest genre ahead of portraiture, landscape and still life (mechanical copying)

>>19484948
It's pretty hard to argue this while keeping in mind the primary classical form was in sculpture and from the Renaissance on it was painting - and not to forget the paragone argument

>>19487318
grindset*

>>19485331
It seems pretty obvious to me as someone who actually reads Derrida that there is nothing in there that really supports trannies.

>>19480996
The overman is of the future: as hard as you're baiting, surely even you can see that the overman is a goal to work toward rather than something you simply become.

>>19480996
>If you can't become the Overman then just don't do anything

>>19487296
Homer's Contest is a great essay, one which is sadly overlooked.

http://www.northamericannietzschesociety.com/uploads/7/3/2/5/73251013/nietzscheana5.pdf

>>19487318
>hence history painting was the grandest genre
Not really, at least as long as the tendencies of objectivism prevailed. Something similar to historicism may be found in fine arts of basically any existent culture may be found, but it has been always dispersed through the prism of artistic mythologism and thereby it was filled with a meaning transcended of factual display.
>>19487333
The two exemplary principles I listed were indeed first and foremost realised in fine arts, so I see no analogical difficulties.

>>19487921
And what was that you've done today to contribute to achieving this goal?

>>19488150
I shit myself, laxly, upon a park bench: I gazed at the passer-bys, their eyes not seeing the physical stink lines wafting from my diaper. O', how I did rejoice, for they do not know of my society-defiant Will being exercized before their very eyes! I do pity them. I did not do this merely to antagonise their values: I had a Will to Power, and that Power went toward forcing out a turd, regardless of who was present and what was expected - or unexpected - of my persons.

>>19487338
Then you didn't understand how he got Nietzsche wrong.

>>19483380
>To be a Christian is to have peace with yourself and the world.
it's actually the complete opposite. you are comforted knowing that despite your flaws and the limits of the world, that sky daddy will swoop down in the end and pull you up out of this mess. you think like a child, reason like a child. it is time to put away childish things and become a man.

>>19488163
Based and Overmanpilled

>>19480435
it is ok to apply nietzsche and still
>have faith
per se, in a god-like entity of some kind

>>19485331
Nice cope, nietzsche is way closer to tranny shit

V

>>19481268
He was not a Christian, he was Christ. Everyone else are the Christians

>>19480996
>>19487921
The overman needs to be created through eugenics.

>>19488017
>Not really, at least as long as the tendencies of objectivism prevailed.

It's a well-established art historical fact. Look up the 'hierarchy of genres'. The same reason why Italian painting was revered more in the canon than the Northern arts, which were by all means more technically accurate to visible reality

>>19488017
Was there no 'heathen vitality' in mannerism?

>>19488520
What?

>>19493043
You make yourself into a God.

>>19481528
>>19482726

Big fucking Cope. It’s best in the world. Nothing comes close except Greco-Roman pagan art of course.

>>19486692
>faustian soul

Actual Nordic viking art was shit though so just no

>>19486692
Armenians are Faustian now?

>>19480519
Christianity IS neoplatonistic, you fucking retard.

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>>19481120
>A failure at both life and philosophy
Yeah you've sure exceeded Nietzsche in both those regards, eh anon?

>>19486702
The problem is that poets should stick with poetry and philosophers should stick with philosophy. With Nietzsche we have an utterly subpar philosopher who is still being discussed because his writing is so dazzling and poetic that it stuns the minds of young men.

>>19493409
>It's a well-established art historical fact.
I understood your point as if you were subjectively ranking historic paintings above all others in terms of sheer quality, but if you're referring to the genre hierarchy I guess I don't have anything to say. Though in that case I don't think I get what you're trying to say with that at all.

>>19493881
I wouldn’t call myself successful exactly, but I have enough humility to acknowledge that. Therefore I don’t tell people how to live.

>>19494265
Nietzsche didn't either.

>>19493713
That's what Christians say to cope with the fact that they destroyed a philosophical tradition that was in every way more perfect than theirs. It becomes especially clear when you consider the works of theologians who were in one way or another influenced by Neoplatonism, like Pseudo-Dionysus, and while they may deceive you with implementation of Neoplatonic concepts they vaguely understand in their philosophy, it all becomes transparent as soon as they proclaim some dumb bullshit like God's absolutely transcendence in Pseud's case. Neoplatonists openly called Christians insensitive plebs, and it's a shame it had taken humanity 1500 years before Nietzsche announced the truth once again.

>>19481293
this picture is too busy. the colours are drab. everyone is fat. and why is god wearing a dress?

>>19493074
No he isn't, zoomer faggot.

>>19494832
>they destroyed a philosophical tradition
It's moment in history was over. It was a matter of time.

>>19495605
Lmao no. All the way from Plotinus to Damascius it's been only progressing, and the state it was left in around the reign of Justinian looked like it could live much longer.

>>19480435
Zarathustra remains my first real experience with philosophy. I went into it with skepticism, but found myself enthralled. Irrespective of his ideas, the guy has some mind-blowing prose. In general, it made me a happier person.

10/10, complete lunatic. Can't wait to read the rest of his works.

>>19486195
You are conflating Kierkegaard with his pseudonym. Read "Judge for Yourselves!"
>Yet precisely this is the purely human view calls becoming sober. To forget oneself, to come, not to, but to go away from oneself by losing onself in knowing, in comprehending, ion thinking, in artistic production, etc.—precisely this is called being sober. From the Christian point of view, this is intoxication.
>There was a time when art tried to portray the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ. It was not doubt a misunderstanding, since he cannot possibly be portrayed in this way, since his glory is the invisible, the inward, and he, the sign of contradiction—concealed in a contrary exterior. Consequently art will in vain try its hand at this.
The real effort Kierkegaard had was to re-emphasize Jesus's radical call for discipleship and self-transformation, for the imitation of Christ. This is the real answer to>>19486055
>>19481528
Here is Nietzsche himself on Bach's St. Matthew Passion
>This week I heard the St. Matthew Passion three times and each time I had the same feeling of immeasurable admiration. One who has completely forgotten Christianity truly hears it here as Gospel.

>>19496895
>Here is Nietzsche himself on Bach's St. Matthew Passion
Okay? I stand by my opinion

>>19494003
There's no difference between poetry and philosophy. None whatsoever. This was merely an ancient lie told by one great poet from antiquity, Plato.