/lit/ - Literature

I have not read Nietzsche, but as a contrarian I am going to take what your saying as fact.

>>19471703
He was a destructive philosopher in the Heideggerian sense; how can you critique someone who only destroys?

>>19471703
He was one of the forerunners of post-modernism so this isn't surprising at all. There's no grand narrative in his works, it's just a bunch of contradictions, contrarianism, and vague nonsense.

itt: last men

So far the only thing I read by him I thought was decent was The Antichrist and I mean decent by the standards of 1880

That also happens with useless subjects in university or institutes. They are so senseless that all my classmates find them "difficult", when in reality such is the stupidity of these topics that trying to make sense in them is a lost cause.

>>19471703
DYNAMITE

>>19471703
>He was a poet, not a philosopher.
Which is why we love him. No one cares about tedious assholes who play with words.

Ecce Homo is the most masturbatory thing I've ever read in my life. I cant believe he even put it out as if other eyes were even allowed to witness his greatness

>>19471703
Pretty much. I would say that the best refutation of Nietzsche is that rational argument has nothing to do with feelings, because Nietzsche constantly asserts that feelings come before reason.

For example:
>Master/slave dichotomy
Asserts that there is no basis to Christian morality other than how slaves feel. This ignores that the real reason master morality perished, is because slavery was a moribund institution. Even in the 5th century, serfdom made more sense empirically, and by the 19th century, slave societies were the losers all over the globe because it's an economic system that discourages innovation.

>Apollonian/Dionysian
Asserts that rationalism itself is just a feeling, and that we can ignore it painlessly. Nietzsche also seems to forget that even as the Academy was growing more rationalistic, in fact the major winner of antiquity was the Dionysian spirit, which was intimately connected with working-class religiosity. Pagan Romans and Greeks synchretized the Jewish God with Dionysus, so the triumph of Christianity can be read as a Dionysian victory.

>The Anti-Christ (that Christianity is a Buddhistic peace movement)
This sounds like the perfect argument, but since it's nothing but feelings, you can just say that Buddhistic peace movements are based. Of course, war sucks ass and Nietzsche's reactionary little arguments fail regularly to account for the fact that Socialist tendencies crop up because people in general want less conflict, not more.

>>19471915
Ecce homo is kryptonite for the last men.

He's really just a standard boring 19th century liberal, except he likes ancient greeks and cooming a bit more than stoicism/hindoos/buddhism/christianity.

>>19472052
slavery is still legal in the US you imbecile

>>19471703
he was pretty sneaky. there are countless times when he contradicts a position he has, leaving it all up to interpretation or nuance, so that all objectivity in his work is obfuscated.

>>19471703
nietzsche frequently required people to make his arguments for him. its not too uncommon for him to not explain a claim of his or to provide no to very little evidence. he likes to say that he can write in a sentence what others write in a book but he shouldve asked himself why that was - others care enough to provide sufficient reasoning.

>>19471874
the last man is the übermensch

>>19472088
Is it worth reading?
I just finished Case of Wagner

I have yet to read:
Twilight
The Antichrist
Zarathustra

I only read the stuff included in the Modern Library Basic Writings of Nietzsche

>>19471703
An absolute genius, even today blowing pseuds the fuck out of the water with a first-hand lesson in Chadspectivism.

>>19471863
>he thinks in terms of dissolutions of metanarratives
>he hasn't done the tiny baby-step from that to consider that the dissolution of meta-narratives is the grandest of all narratives

>>19471903
Only intelligent post ITT.

>>19471915
It is the book version of gigachad.

>>19472052
>2k21
>using a dichotomy of thought and feeling
God damn man.

Nietzsche was just jealous of socrates, who was a real soldier and ubermensch who actually affirmed his life in the end, while nietzsche did not (driving himself insane)

>>19472323
Cringe and reddit

>>19472338
>Socrates
You mean the original fedora? Nietzsche put him in his place and proved that Chad Normalfag is superior to academic nerds rather than resentfully whining about him.

>>19472363
Socrates was the chad normal fag:
>killed dudes hand to hand as a soldier of athens, saved numerous famous greeks countless times, held of the enemy single handedly
>after killing people while looking them in the eye he would randomly philosophize to his worn out friends
>listens to random women
>refused to properly attend to his wife
>trolling the athenian court and those that sought to dispute him
>died a hero loved by all in the end, immortalized as the father of western philosophy by plato

Socrates is not only a chad normalfag, he is the chad normalfag philosopher for normalfags, nietzsche on the other hand is the philosopher for academic nerds

>>19472358
cope seethe dilate

>>19472052
>. I would say that the best refutation of Nietzsche is that rational argument has nothing to do with feelings
Look at this mutant.

>>19472384
>rejected the masses aka normalfags
>rejected the "unexamined life" aka the normalfag life
>rejected the Dionysian theater aka normalfag entertainment
He was a contrarian hipster outside of the battlefield. Not Chad Normalfag in the slightest.

>>19472404

>>19472405
war is the ultimate field of chaddery and normalfaggery, in the sense that it is the ultimate measure of men, and to be good at war, invariably such rejections occur (the spartans would have rejected such distractions aswell)

socrates was the ubermensch nietzsche so craved to be, but was to weak to ever become, so he seethed with jealousy

socrates died sound of mind, and of his own choice, nietzsche died unsound, and not of his own choice (he probably crapped the bed before dying too)

>>19472419
War was a mask for Socrates to not have to socialize with others. If he was a Chad Normalfag he wouldn't have been a contrarian hipster as soon as wartime ended.

>>19472450
but he did socialize with others, choosing carefully whom to talk to is not the same as not socializing at all. The records of Socrates are full of him engaging with dialogs involving others. In contrast, nietzsche almost never talked to anyone, those that he did left him quickly to destitution and annihilation by the elements.

An asocial man would not have saved so many famous greeks, such a man would also not be so open to conversation and the seeking of advice. And most importantly, how could an asocial man be so striking and concise with his speeches? To be so fluent in the glib that he needed only to carry out his inquisition in dialog and debate, not requiring the crutch of the pen and paper? such a man can never be anything close or even similar to the word 'asocial'

>>19472459
>but he did socialize with others
Dialectical argument isn't socializing, it's an attempt to avoid socializing. Socrates only had friends among other contrarian hipsters like Euripides.

>In contrast, nietzsche almost never talked to anyone
http://www.thenietzschechannel.com/correspondence/corresp.htm

What also proves you wrong is Nietzsche's philosophy embracing Chad Normalfag rather than making it a principle to reject his existence like Socrates did.

>>19471703
:O

>another thread for people who haven't read N to debate people who didn't understand him about whether it is based and redpilled to agree with him or not

>>19472052
your idea of truth is inherently flawed

>>19472307
Ecce Homo is basically a auto-commentary on his other books. Wouldn't make sense to read it until after those.

>>19471863
Holy shit please get educated or stfu with buzzword nonsense

>>19472497
correspondances are not the same as conversations face to face, and how can you say argumentation isn't socializing?

"the action or practice of participating in social activities or mixing socially with others."

to argue and debate on matters small and large is no less socializing, do people today not talk about current affairs in bars? did they not do so in coffee tables some centuries ago? now we should consider all that as "non-socializing"?

Given all the people socrates did help whom were not strictly philosophers, it is likely he did socialize with them outside of such debate, it is just simply due to how plato focused on mostly recording down such debates that such slice-of-life conversations were never fully recorded. The way socrates spoke was certainly that of a very social man

>>19472384
Ah yes how normal and chad to be a bisexual blasphemer. Get your narrative straight

>>19472527
his soldiering record redeems him beyond anything nietzsche ever did, he is single handedly more heroic, normal and chad than everyone on this board combined

>>19472533
Ok so you don't actually care about literature or ideas in the first place anyway. Figured that

>>19472539
>you don't actually care about literature or ideas in the first place anyway

I simply weigh such things as being correct when their thinkers are heroic as opposed to when their thinkers are sickly, schemeing men

>>19472526
>i-it doesn't count b-because it's not face to face!!!
Not like he started and maintained those relationships in person or anything, either. Do you know what time period he was from?

>how can you say argumentation isn't socializing?
Because dialectical argument is about confusing the other into turning away from their own instincts with wordplay. That's not socializing. Socrates was just trying to peddle his contrarian hipster philosophy onto others, being the ugly social reject that he was.

>>19472549
Socrates went around nitpicking everyone and what they thought. He's hardly different from Nietzsche in that regard. But one is heroic and that makes him correct?

>>19472567
why could'nt he? in the era of industrialization travel should have been easier then than ancient greece

the other is not confused if their instincts are sufficiently sharp, it is only when one's instincts are not sufficient that they require development. had they had better instincts, Socrates would not have so easily confounded them. In the field of war Socrates indeed showed how sharp his own instincts were, so it is no surprise others found it hard to best him here

>>19472523
Kind of weird to include it in this volume if it doesn't feature the books that somewhat prerequisite of it. I'll put it aside for now then.

>>19472518
Why would they even talk about someone they haven't even read?

are they lunatics?

>>19471703
all great philosophers are poets and all great poets are philosophers

>>19472578
well, yes, Socrates mostly likely did see everything life in ancient Greece had to offer, for 30 years he participated in numerous wars and saw men for what they were. This gives weight to what he advocates, Nietzsche by contrast never saw anything beyond his basic training.

Given such contrasting lives, why would I not entrust my understanding of suffering to Socrates instead? A man who did suffer, survived, and thrived in some of the most inhospitable situations known to man?

>>19471703
No, the reason he's so difficult to critique is because he was right.

>>19472588
>why could'nt he? in the era of industrialization travel should have been easier then than ancient greece
Why couldn't he what? And he did travel, and roomed with several people over the course of his life.

>the other is not confused if their instincts are sufficiently sharp, it is only when one's instincts are not sufficient that they require development
Great! Doesn't change the fact that Socrates wasn't socializing. He was an anti-social manipulator whose philosophy made a principle out of rejecting normalfag society in every way.

>>19472593
I'm not sure compiled that volume but Stanford has many of the translations in chronological order in two volumes. There's some important stuff outside of those like Zarathustra or The Gay Science and for those you could just use Kaufmann.

>>19472363
>because we all know that if Nietzsche valued anything, it was "normalfags"
Holy shit have you ever read a book you fucking nerd?

>>19472594
Yeah I am positive the people who seethe the most about Nietzsche and whine about him founding postmodernism/nihilism did not do the reading

>>19472603
>Nietzsche by contrast never saw anything beyond his basic training.

>>19472603
>if you didn't do a big thing in a big war you have no opinion
Ok go die for the government then and we'll talk

>>19472608
It was easy for him to travel, yet he still used letters. This indicates a lack of sociality

>Doesn't change the fact that Socrates wasn't socializing
It still categorically counts as socializing, it is only Nietzscheans that would dispute such a conversation as socializing

>He was an anti-social manipulator whose philosophy made a principle out of rejecting normalfag society in every way.
Again something Nietzscheans describe him as, plenty of normalfags did admire him, IE: from xenophon:

"Again, concerning Justice he did not hide his opinion, but proclaimed it by his actions. All his private conduct was lawful and helpful: to public authority he rendered such scrupulous obedience in all that the laws required, both in civil life and in military service, that he was a pattern of good discipline to all"

from laches:
"He was my companion in the retreat from Delium, and I can tell you that if others had only been like him, the honour of our country would have been upheld, and the great defeat would never have occurred."

he was such a social chad the celebrities of society wished normalfags were like him, and even the normalfags eventually did want to be like him. what is more social and chad than that?

>>19472619
Have you? The whole reason why he called Socrates ugly was to point out that it made him a pleb in Greek society, in order to demonstrate that Socrates was essentially a contrarian hipster who went around trying to convince the Greeks that rationality was more important than beauty.

>>19472624
"Nietzsche began his mandatory military service in 1867. Assigned to an equestrian field artillery regimen near Naumberg, he suffered a serious chest injury while attempting to leap-mount the saddle. While he was on sick leave, his chest wound festered, so he returned to the University of Leipzig. Never in outstanding health, further complications arose from Nietzsche’s August-October 1870 service as a 25-year-old hospital attendant during the Franco-Prussian War (1870-71). He witnessed the traumatic effects of battle, took close care of wounded soldiers, and contracted diphtheria and dysentery."

again, nothing much beyond his basic training, he did not participate in any actual combat

>>19472614
Thanks
This one is Kaufman's translation.
I can't find Kaufman's gay science here anymore. How decent is holingdale's joyous wisdom?

I ordered oxford's Zarathustra but it's not here yet

>>19472651
>he wrote letters to family, friends and acquaintances almost every day of his life whenever he wasn't actually out and about with others
>this is an indication that he was anti-social
Not to mention he always preferred to go on walks outside before writing.

>underhanded social manipulation still categorically counts as socializing
Not for Chad Normalfag it doesn't.

>plenty of normalfags did admire him
They were naive. The Greeks still lynched him in the end for his crimes against their society.

>>19471889
The standards of 1880 were higher than 2021

>>19472668
I agree with Kaufmann that "joyous science" is a poor translation of the title for "la gaya scienza" or "gai saber" since Nietzsche is directly relating the title to the provençal and occitain troubadors and minnesangers of the middle ages. I've read a few of Hollingdale's translations but not that one. In Zarathustra, Hollingdale translates ubermensch as "Superman" which is incredibly jarring. I don't know German but uber usually means "over" as in "deutschland deutschland uber alles" and indeed an overman would be over men while a superman sounds like a man who is super. But that's just my opinion

>>19472685
And why did he walk? So much of his life was spent trying to alleviate and even escape his suffering by cures or therapies, should I then trust him when he tells me to embrace suffering when he cannot even take stomach pains without reaching for the opium?

>Chad Normalfags do not count underhanded social manipulation as socializing
Bruh have you seen dating apps? Been outside your room lately? If anything Socrates was socializing in a far less manipulative manner than most modern chads do

>They were naive. The Greeks still lynched him in the end for his crimes against their society.

They were naive when they lynched him, when they realized their crimes, they revered him, seeking to emulate the greatness he represented

>>19472717
>he has to ask what the value of going outside is
>he thinks the basic ritual of seduction is at the same level as dialectical argument in terms of being underhanded or social manipulation
>he thinks the Greeks were wrong to lynch the ugly guy whose philosophy was essentially "do the opposite of everything the Greeks say"
Your posts are peak ressentiment. How about taking a break from the internet and affirming life occasionally?

>>19472754
it is just a matter of fact, nietzsche famously moved to the countryside and walked all the time as an attempt to resuscitate his poor health, something which he never did succeed at due to his uncontrollable masturbation

it is the same, just that the ritual of seduction comes more naturally than rhetorically. it is your categorization of "social manipulation" that I am using here.

it should be of note that nietzsche never mastered the rhetoric or instincts behind attracting women, as such he died of syphillis and without any lover whatsoever.

the greeks were wrong, they admitted to being wrong themselves then, and definitely today.

Alright, I believe I have sufficiently humiliated the nietzscheans, let all whom bear witness to this thread remember: what nietzsche wished, Socrates was. What Socrates was, nietzsche could never hope to be.

Socrates died with the women, the honors, the veneration and proclamation as the founder of western Philosophy.

nietzsche died in obscurity, insane, his works used for ulterior motives, and would eventually be associated with incels, MRAs, and virgins today.

>>19472773
Nietzsche walked because going outside is better than being cooped up inside all day. It stimulates the mind better.

>it is the same
No, you're just ugly and incapable of enjoying a ritual that the rest of humanity and most other species enjoy, so you don't see how it's not on the same level as what Socrates did at all.

>nietzsche never mastered the rhetoric or instincts behind attracting women
Neither did Socrates, who only married out of duty / irony.

>as such he died of syphillis and without any lover
Him having syphilis is an unproven hypothesis and technically he did hit it off with one woman, Louise Ott, but he left it alone because she was already married with a kid. Not that it matters since his philosophy was still pro-social and pro-normalfag while Socrates' philosophy wasn't.

>the greeks were wrong
t. Socrates, the original fedora.

>Alright, I believe I have sufficiently humiliated the nietzscheans, let all whom bear witness to this thread remember: what nietzsche wished, Socrates was.
*tips*

>>19472773
Socrates would have argued against your "chadism"

>>19472715
Yeah I don't like holingdale's superman it's the worst that's why i went for martin(?) ,Whoever did oxford world classics, since it's the only one using ubermensch.

I'll have to get Kaufman's gay science then
Thanks

>AAAAAHHHH
>I CANNOT WRITE A 1000 WORD TERM PAPER ON THIS GUY
>LITERALLY CANNOT REFUTE HIM AAAAHHHH
>IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SUMMARIZE HIS VIEWS IN ARTICLE-LENGTH AAAAHH
>THIS IS NOT PHILOSOPHY, PHILOSOPHY IS ABOUT REFOOOOOOTING
>AAAAAHHHH
The old Nietzschmeister does it again, another pleb completely annihilated.

>>19471908
>tedious assholes who play with words.
...Isnt that what makes a poet a poet as opposed to a philosopher?

>>19473257
hardest case of filtered I've ever seen

>>19471703
Uh oh, here comes a systemfag who thinks philosophy is a science or something. Stay in your Kanthole please.

>>19472773
>Public shaming
>hasn't addressed anything about what Nietzsche wrote.
Nietzsche isn't copying Socrates;

He is the Opposite of Plato.

>>19473720
>He is the Opposite of Plato
Not really. Nietzsche only really criticises Plato regarding his ethical imperatives and fixation on rationality. But if we compare Nietzsche's philosophy to Plato's at its logical end - Neoplatonism, a lot of similarities between the two become obvious.

>>19473449
You sure about that?
A poet by its very nature is one who trie to create something beautiful, but not necessarily coherent by playing with the meaning and sensation of words.

While most philosophers since plato at the very least, admit to the fluid nature of words and try to communicate with ideas they hope to better make concreate through more precise use of words, with acknowledgement that they themselves are faulty in betweens.

>>19473449
>...This is why Lessing, the most honest of theoretical men, dared to say that he took greater delight in the quest for truth than in the truth itself.

>>19473781
He is his opposite; or should I have said , His mirror.

Plato wrote the life of Socrates and embedded his Values through Socrates his Character

Nietzsche did the same; writing about the Life he never lived to embedd his values.