/lit/ - Literature

Our Lady's 15 Promises to Those Who Pray Her Rosary - https://www.goodcatholic.com/fifteen-rosary-promises/
Traditional Catholic Prayers - http://catholictradition.org/prayers1.htm
Prayers to the Holy Spirit - https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=336
The Enchiridion of Indulgences - https://www.catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php
Papal Authority At The Earliest Councils - https://web.archive.org/web/20110629002305/http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9101fea2.asp
Letters of St. Jerome - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001.htm
Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton - https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/g-k-chesterton/orthodoxy
Book III of Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus - https://ccel.org/ccel/irenaeus/against_heresies_iii/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
Church Father Quotations on Apostolic Doctrines - churchfathers.org
Meditations and Devotions by John Henry Newman - https://www.newmanreader.org/works/meditations/
Did the Papacy Exist While St. John Was Still Alive? - http://shamelesspopery.com/did-the-papacy-exist-while-john-was-alive/
Papias, Ehrman, and the Gospels - https://faithfulphilosophytest.wordpress.com/2020/06/03/papias-ehrman-and-the-gospels/
Writings of Gregory Nazianzus - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/20_30_0329-0390-_Gregorius_Nazianzenus,_Sanctus.html
Fragments of St. Irenaeus in Eusebius - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-eusebius.html

Some suggestions:

>Our Lady's 15 Promises to Those Who Pray Her Rosary
https://www.goodcatholic.com/fifteen-rosary-promises/
>Some Traditional Catholic Prayers
http://catholictradition.org/prayers1.htm
>Prayers to the Holy Spirit
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=336
>The Enchiridion of Indulgences
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php
>Letters of St. Jerome
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001.htm
>Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/g-k-chesterton/orthodoxy
>Book III of Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus
https://ccel.org/ccel/irenaeus/against_heresies_iii/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
>Church Father Quotations on Apostolic Doctrines -
https://www.churchfathers.org
>Meditations and Devotions by John Henry Newman
https://www.newmanreader.org/works/meditations/
>Did the Papacy Exist While St. John Was Still Alive?
http://shamelesspopery.com/did-the-papacy-exist-while-john-was-alive/
>Papias, Ehrman, and the Gospels
https://faithfulphilosophytest.wordpress.com/2020/06/03/papias-ehrman-and-the-gospels/
>Writings of Gregory Nazianzus
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/20_30_0329-0390-_Gregorius_Nazianzenus,_Sanctus.html
>Fragments of St. Irenaeus in Eusebius
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-eusebius.html

"Confessions", by St. Augustine: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3296/3296-h/3296-h.htm
"14 Rules of Discernment", by St. Ignatius of Loyola - https://prepase.weebly.com/uploads/8/6/4/5/8645625/0-st._ignatius_14_rules_of_discernment.pdf
"The Didache" - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
"St. Justin Martyr: The Spermatikos Logos and the Natural Law" - https://lexchristianorum.blogspot.com/2010/03/st-justin-martyr-spermatikos-logos-and.html
"Homilies on the Gospels" by St. Gregory the Great - https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/gregory-the-great-homiles-on-the-gospels
"On the Priesthood; Ascetic Treatises; Select Homilies and Letters; Homilies on the Statutes" by St. John Chrysostom - https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=7BD8240226E232F4FC03F7E63C1D9712
"Homilies on Genesis 1-17" by St. John Chysostom - https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=C71D586CC1C2DBBFA32E5A95A03F9AF5

My copy of Christian Prayer arrived today, I'd like to start praying the Hours and from what I gathered it seems like a good place to begin.
Any advice for the inexperienced in the Liturgy?

>>19439551
Use this blog to get started: https://saintsshallarise.blogspot.com/p/the-notes-linked-to-below-are-around.html

Why do people like Ross Douthat? He's okay, but he doesn't really write anything that interesting and sometimes his op-eds are a bit of a messy.

can I get a rundown on why catholics pray to mary/the saints? Theology on it would be appreciated too. I've thought a lot about converting but prayers to mary throw me off.

>>19438861

Fuck the Holy Spirit, Fuck the Holy Spirit and Fuck the Holy Spirit. Don't @ me, don't pray 4 me

>>19439673
I wrote up a short series of posts on this. Hope it helps you out a bit, and happy to clarify any points that still remain unclear.

I want to start off by saying that I am absolutely sympathetic to Protestants who think we worship saints, because a Catholic (or Orthodox) church is extremely shocking to somebody who grew up with a typical Protestant church.
I can just imagine them thinking "Why are there pictures of regular humans in a place that is supposed to be for the worship of God alone?". Without having the proper context, I absolutely see how one could think it is idolatry.

The main root of the misunderstanding, as I see it, is twofold: the first is the distinction between honour/veneration and worship, and the second is whether or not the saints can hear our prayers.

First, then is the distinction between worship and veneration/honour. Honour is a type of respect due to all mankind, as well as to God.
The Greek word for this concept (timé), is multi-faceted, such as when one is commanded to honour their father and mother, or where Peter says "Honour [timesate] all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour [timate] the king."
Paul says in 1 Timothy to "Honor [tima] the widows", yet we are also called to "honor [timosi] the Son, even as they honor [timosi] the Father".
So we have a clear precedent in Scripture for there being a respect or honour paid not only to the Holy Trinity, but to our parents, widows, the king, and "all men".
Thus, having established this distinction, the simplest form of the argument for honouring/veneration of the saints would be an "a fortiori" argument:
We are called by the apostles to honour all men, and we are also called to honour God. Now, it is clear that we are to honour God more than the average man.
So if there are gradations in the amount of honour which is to be paid, it logically follows that we should give more honour to the blessed Virgin Mary, than to a child rapist. For Mary bore God the Son in her very womb, and all generations shall call her blessed, how much more should we honour her than a child rapist?
Now, the idea is clear - we honour God at the top of the hierarchy in a unique way, and infinitely below him are the saints and angels in heaven who have earned their crown and robe, and below them are our brothers and sisters here on earth.

We do NOT, under any circumstances, worship saints. Worship, also called latria, is due to God alone. You can see this in such passages as Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve [latreuseis]." (Luke 4:8)
Latria is a kind of exclusive worship - it is "service", in the sense of being exclusively yoked to a master. If you give latria to anybody but God, you are committing idolatry. Catholics will never, ever, give latria to any saint, even the blessed Virgin Mary. We respect and venerate the saints very highly, but NEVER worship them.

So, hopefully you see the distinction between honour and worship.

(1/3)

>>19439673
>>19439750


Assuming that makes sense, the segway to the next point is something like - "okay, I see that one can honour the saints in heaven in a similar way to how we honour those who are alive, and I see how it is reasonable that some particularly holy saints could be more honoured than your average person. That's all fine.
But why do you pray to the saints? Isn't prayer supposed to be directed to God alone, because " there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"?".

First and foremost, the word pray just means "ask". If I ask you to pray for me, I am asking you to ask [God] for something on my behalf, even though I can also pray directly to God. This is a very common Christian practice, and I will assume you already do it.
The basis for the belief of prayer to the saints is threefold: first, we are called to pray for one another to God, and asking somebody to pray for you is not wrong - second, those in heaven are aware of what is going on on earth, in a supernatural way - and third, the saints in heaven are closer to God than we are.
With regards to the first point, I'm sure you already know the verse: "pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man availeth much".
I'm sure that one would agree that IF the saints in heaven could hear our prayers, because they have already proven their righteousness, their prayers to God would be very effective.
Another a fortiori argument - if the prayer of a righteous man on earth availeth much, how much moreso would the prayer of St. John the Baptist be, seeing as Jesus Himself said of him "among those born of women there is no one greater than John", but as if that was not enough, Jesus even says "yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he".
So IF the people in the kingdom of God COULD hear our requests for them to pray for us, and if hearing our request they would pray to God for us, it would surely be a profitable practice, because their righteousness is proven, and even the Lord calls the lowest person in heaven greater than even John the Baptist.

(2/3)

>>19439753

So, the question becomes, CAN the saints in heaven see what is going on on Earth? The scripture is as follows:
"when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” (Revelation 6:9-10)
So the souls of the saints are under the altar in heaven, and they are clearly aware that God has not yet avenged their blood and judged the Earth. For this to be the case, they must know what has or has not happened on Earth.
Thus, at the very least, the saints in heaven know what is going on on the Earth. We also know that our guardian angels know what is going on on Earth in a direct, play-by-play way, with regards to each soul:
"See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father in heaven."

So, we know that angels and saints in heaven can actually see what is going on on Earth, and that we have a guardian angel who both sees everything going on in our lives, and simultaneously always see the face of the Father in heaven.
Now, the next question might be, could the saints possibly hear the prayers of so many people at once? If there are over 1 billion Catholics + Orthodox, and so many of them pray to the virgin Mary, how could she possibly pray to God for all of those who are asking her to pray for them?"
The scripture is as follows:
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, “To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped." (Revelation 5:13-14)
So, John the Apostle, a mere mortal who was still alive and in his physical body, was granted the ability to simultaneously hear every single living thing in the entire universe - and not only that, he was able to coherently understand them all, human and inhuman, in his own language.
The four living creatures also heard every creature in the universe simultaneously, and it is implied that the elders did too.
Thus, it is clear from scripture that there is absolutely no logistical problem with the saints and angels in heaven hearing the prayers of the faithful. God is omnipotent, and He has clearly granted this grace to at least the angels, the elders, and John the Apostle.
Therefore, there is no reason why the saints could not hear our prayers in heaven. They are aware of what is going on on the Earth, and many (if not all) of them can simultaneously hear and understand every creature in the entire universe. It would even be a small thing for God to allow His saints to hear only those prayers directed to them across the world in their own language.

(3/4*)

>>19439760


Finally, now that we know the saints in heaven are aware of what happens on Earth, and that many have supernatural graces that allow them to have the ability to hear prayers, the only question is whether it is worth it to ask the saints/angels to pray for us, rather than doing it ourselves.
This should already be obvious based on the previous verses, but here is a final verseL
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Revelation 5:8)
So the prayers of the saints are offered like incense DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ, in His heavenly liturgy. Now, I don't know about you, but I am not a saint. But the saints in heaven are saints, and if they can hear my requests for prayers, and will pray to God for me, that means a prayer from a lowly sinner like me can be offered directly to the throne of Jesus Christ in heaven, in a way that is special and distinct from the prayers of non-saints.

Altogether, this was a convincing case for me personally - it convinced me that asking the saints to pray for us is, at best, extremely profitable and worth doing (which is probably why the early Christians did it) - and at worst, contradicts nothing within scripture, and is effectively a net neutral, because we also pray to God directly - both in private prayer and contemplation, and every Sunday (at least) in the communal prayer of the liturgy.

(4/4)

>>19439676
We don't believe that simply insulting the Holy Spirit like a frustrated teenager is going to result in eternal damnation - that is a Protestant position. Here is what Catholics believe:

""Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss." (Catechism of the Catholic Church p.1864)

And I will pray for you, brother. Hope everything ends up well in your earthly pilgrimage.

>>19439551
From my experience, I really enjoyed learning how to do basic chant for my private prayer. Now, I tend to do a more Byzantine style monotone chant, but this video might be helpful to see if you are drawn to the Western style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL1mLDM-wSo

>>19439779

>is specifically told what not to do
>does it anyway

>>19439797
Of course I would pray for you. Saying "Don't pray for me" is the equivalent of a woman on social media saying "Nobody message me, had a horrible day". It is a cry for help from your spirit and an obvious attempt to seek attention. So I will pray for you =)

>>19439760
>we have a guardian angel
why do you believe this?

Otherwise this is an excellent explanation, God bless you Anon.

>>19439823
I believe in guardian angels (as did the ancient fathers) because of this verse in Matthew:
"See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 18:10)
The Greek itself actually seems to attest to multiple angels for each person - "hoi angeloi auton" = lit. "the angels of them" [them referring to the "one of these little ones" - see https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/18-10.htm]

I'm glad you found the explanation helpful. God bless you too!

>>19439673
>can I get a rundown on why catholics pray to mary/the saints?

To add a brief thought or two to the remarks that have already been posted:

When we are baptized, we are born again as a child of God. 1 John 3:1.

As a result, Jesus, the Son of God, is truly our older brother in Christ.

His mother, or course, is Mary. If Jesus is our older brother, what does that make Mary in relation to us?

On the cross, He literally gave His mother to us as *our* mother -- this is seen in His declaration to John, the beloved disciple: "Behold your mother."

All Christians are beloved disciples of the Lord. The Church reasons and teaches that the disciple John represented us all at the foot of the Cross. And Mary is now the spiritual mother of us all: "She is clearly the mother of the members of Christ," CCC 963 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#963).).

In short, it's a family affair. That's the Catholic view, and it truly is consistent with the biblical view (the above barely scratches the surface of the issue).

With those thoughts as a foundation, you may find this video particularly helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGJWwqs0Ajs

John Henry Newman, a 19th century English convert to the Catholic Church, had *serious* problems with Catholic devotion to Mary prior to his conversion. With study and experience, his mind changed. He wrote a long letter to his Anglican friend, Pusey, explaining and defending his newfound beliefs about Mary. You may find it, or parts of it, helpful. I particularly like Part I of his 'Notes' to the letter: "Testimonies of the Fathers to the Doctrine that Mary is the Second Eve."

Here is a link to Newman's letter:
https://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/pusey/index.html

>>19439673
JPII's commentary - rather deep theology, indeed - in his encyclical Redemptoris Mater may also be helpful.

QUOTE:
If John's description of the event at Cana presents Mary's caring motherhood at the beginning of Christ's messianic activity, another passage from the same Gospel confirms this motherhood in the salvific economy of grace at its crowning moment, namely when Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, his Paschal Mystery, is accomplished. John's description is concise: "Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother: 'Woman, behold your son!' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!' And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home" (Jn. 19:25-27).

Undoubtedly, we find here an expression of the Son's particular solicitude for his Mother, whom he is leaving in such great sorrow.

And yet the "testament of Christ's Cross" says more. Jesus highlights a new relationship between Mother and Son, the whole truth and reality of which he solemnly confirms.

One can say that if Mary's motherhood of the human race had already been outlined, now it is clearly stated and established.

It emerges from the definitive accomplishment of the Redeemer's Paschal Mystery.

The Mother of Christ, who stands at the very center of this mystery - a mystery which embraces each individual and all humanity - is given as mother to every single individual and all mankind.

The man at the foot of the Cross is John, "the disciple whom he loved." But it is not he alone. Following tradition, the Council does not hesitate to call Mary "the Mother of Christ and mother of mankind": since she "belongs to the offspring of Adam she is one with all human beings.... Indeed she is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ...since she cooperated out of love so that there might be born in the Church the faithful.'"...

Thus we find ourselves at the very center of the fulfillment of the promise contained in the Proto-gospel: the "seed of the woman...will crush the head of the serpent" (cf. Gen. 3:15).

By his redemptive death Jesus Christ conquers the evil of sin and death at its very roots. It is significant that, as he speaks to his mother from the Cross, he calls her "woman" and says to her: "Woman, behold your son!" Moreover, he had addressed her by the same term at Cana too (cf. Jn. 2:4).

How can one doubt that especially now, on Golgotha, this expression goes to the very heart of the mystery of Mary, and indicates the unique place which she occupies in the whole economy of salvation?...

Source: https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

>>19439901
Correction relating to second-to-last paragraph of this post: Newman's second on Mary as the Second Eve is found in § 3. The Belief of Catholics concerning the Blessed Virgin, as distinct from their Devotion to her, part 1. Here is a direct link to that section:
https://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/pusey/section3.html

>>19439823
>>19439844
Another classic verse for guardian angels can be found in Acts 12 when Peter is freed from prison:
>Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant named Rhoda came to answer the door. 14 When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, “Peter is at the door!”

>15 “You’re out of your mind,” they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, “It must be his angel.”

What are you fellas doing for Advent?

bump for jesus

Who are some good modern (last 20 years) Catholic novelists?

>>19442093
I don't know if this is what you're looking for but Gene Wolfe had quite a few novels published in the twenty-first century.

>>19439641
>>19439787
thank you brothers

>>19439551
I have had a good experience using the Magnificat daily devotional, but of course it is not the full office but only excerpts.

>>19439673
It teaches humility. We CAN approach the throne of God directly if we like, but out of deference to his terrible and awesome power (read The Idea of the Holy by Rudolf Otto) we sometimes prefer to send our prayers to him through intermediaries.

>>19440401
Trying to do the Byzantine St. Phillip's Fast. What about you, anon?

Can I get a rundown on fruitful apocryphal NT literature? I'd always dismissed everything of the sort as automatically heretical and gnostic in origin, but Trent Horn and William Albrecht's joint rebuttal to Calvinist James White regarding the Protoevangelium of James has made me think. They brought up how, while it's not canonical and should not be confused with Scripture, it doesn't push any heresies, doesn't promote gnostic positions, and in fact was most likely written specifically to combat heresies and gnostics, docetists and Marcionites in particular, in order to defend orthodox Christian beliefs and tradition in the 2nd century. They also brought up how, despite not being canonical Scripture, it is still the source for names like St. Anne and St. Joachim, which shows that just because the work is noncanonical and not Scripture doesn't mean every word of it should be tossed aside, but rather should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Another thread recently compared this to 1 Maccabees from a Rabbinic Judaism perspective, where they don't view it as Scripture, but that doesn't mean Judas Maccabeus didn't exist or the revolt didn't happen; and despite not viewing it as Scripture, Josephus, when writing about the Maccabees, almost exclusively used these books as his primary sources for information, meaning he still viewed them as fruitful and not as complete works of fiction.

In short, if the Protoevangelium of James is okay to read as long as you treat it on its own merits, are there others of similar nature that have been incorrectly labeled as gnostic or heretical to orthodox Christian beliefs?

>>19439973
fucking idiotic post

"The mother of Jesus" appears in John exactly twice, and does not even get named.

The first time, Jesus snaps at her to stop bothering him with her dumb mortal party planner concerns. The second time he is dying and just says "Not my problem, the Beloved Disciple will take care of it from now on."

There is no indication in John's Gospel that Jesus found this "Woman" to be anything other than an irksome nuisance inconveniently disrupting his cosmic mission.

John's Gospel goes way out of its way to distance Jesus from human/natural/earthly origins, even giving him a practically docetic body that frequently teleports away from danger. He also does not eat or drink until the wine sponge on the cross (and again after the resurrection) and even tells the disciples that he does not eat puny human food.

Pre-death Jesus is NOT human in John's Gospel! So for John's Jesus, Mary is a weird crazy lady following him around inexplicably.


you fucking people do not know how to read

>>19443227
>Christ didn't eat, according to the book of John
Incorrect. That's like saying anyone whose bathroom trips aren't specifically mentioned in a book, doesn't use the bathroom.

>>19443227
>Pre-death Jesus is NOT human in John's Gospel
Absolute nonsense

>>19443227
>frequently teleports away from danger
this made me kmao

>>19443227
Need to bolt the bonus Luke 11:27-28 onto that also.

>>19443250
mad how christcucks don't even read the bible

>>19442770
John 14:6
>Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

>>19443283
As that may not be so clear, there's only one intermediary. He said it Himself.
How's that for saints?

>>19443227
>The first time, Jesus snaps at her to stop bothering him with her dumb mortal party planner concerns
If you had actually read the text, you might have seen that immediately after "snapping" [which emotion you are anachronistically reading into the text - "woman" was a perfectly normal way of addressing a female, and did not carry the negative consequences it does now], Jesus does exactly what Mary asked Him to do - to create wine, and therefore to begin His public ministry.

>Pre-death Jesus is NOT human in John's Gospel
"Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth."

>>19443296
You might have missed here:
>>19439766
Where the prayers of the saints are offered directly to Jesus Christ in heaven on His throne. If that verse were interpreted to mean what you think it means, then we would be left with the incoherent interpretation that people should never ask others to pray for them, even though we are explicitly commanded to.