/lit/ - Literature

I also recommend everyone check out ‘From Glory to Glory’, which contains numerous passages from the writings of St. Gregory of Nyssa’s mystical writings. It’s a great book, and I love his doctrine of epektasis, or the perpetual striving and growth into perfection in God.

Where can I get Rose’s book on evolution without going broke?

>>19429119
How many of you were raised Orthodox and how many are LARPing?
t. serb
https://youtu.be/ZBefXP-_eGg

>>>/his/

I'm Catholic but have a great respect for the Eastern Christian tradition. It disappoints me the western Church is often treated with such hostility by online Orthodox

>>19429330
Imagine thinking that you have to born Orthodox to be authentically Orthodox.

>>19429361
"Divine liturgy" and all those books in the OP are all I need to know about how you guys approach orthodoxy

>>19429373
I'm open to learning, what is the way do you think it's best to approach orrhodoxy then?

>>19429361
I went to an Orthodox Church and the Priest told me it was for the Greek community only and that I'd be better off going to the local Catholic Church. I visited another Orthodox Church in a different region and got told the same thing, seems this attitude is endemic.

>>19429356
Fuck you Cathcuck

>>19429119
Luke refers to Jesus as Mary's "firstborn" (2:7), even though elsewhere he uses a different term for "only born" (7:12, 9:38). Why would Luke use a term that seems to contradict Mary's perpetual virginity when he was aware of an alternative term that's consistent with perpetual virginity and uses it elsewhere in his gospel?

Similarly, why does Luke differentiate between "brothers" and "relatives" in 21:16 if there's no significant difference between the two? In the same way, why does Hegesippus refer to Symeon as Jesus' "cousin" (in Eusebius, Church History, 4:22:4), yet refer to James as Jesus' "brother" (ibid., 2:23:4) and Jude as Jesus' "brother according to the flesh" (ibid., 3:20:1)? We see this over and over again with the earliest sources. They not only use language that seems to contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary, but even use different language elsewhere that's consistent with perpetual virginity, which they could have used in the passages relevant to Mary

>>19429373
The OSB was compiled by actual Orthodox theologians and priests, Kallistos Ware is an actual
metropolitan bishop, John of Kronstadt is a legitimate saint, and Seraphim Rose was a hieromonk, regardless of what you think about him. I’m not sure what is wrong with any of these books.

It’s strange to see how hostile people get when they explore Orthodox Christianity respectfully and with genuine spiritual interest. Luckily actually Orthodox people I have interacted with in real life have been nothing but welcoming and hospitable.

>>19429378
Community will teach you more than those books. I've never seen an english speaking Ortho church before, are they common? Do you go to one? Do you have saint icons in your house, do you celebrate a feast day for the saint? Do you fast on the designated fasting days, is christmas on the 7th of January for you?

In my house our feast day has been for the Saint Sava, it's been like that for a few generations (it's always the saint from your dad's side, idk how it works for converts). I'm just a bit baffled by the americans who think they are too good for american christianity, I don't mean to be hostile.

>>19429419
>I'm just a bit baffled by the americans who think they are too good for american christianity, I don't mean to be hostile.
“American Christianity”—lol wut? America has a mix of Catholics and all sorts of Protestants ranging from technology-rejecting Amish people, to schizo Prots standing around with signs telling you that you’re going to burn in hell, to others who do nothing but shill for sodomy and transgender priests. In between that are a whole range of somewhat mundane Protestants who might show up to church occasionally or those who are Christian in name early. And then there are Orthodox churches too. And lots of them. My state in the Midwest has nearly forty Orthodox parishes, and they’re not all ethnic parishes either. Even places like Texas have over a dozen parishes, this gatekeeping is retarded. The Church is spreading. If you truly believe that it is universal, you should think that this is a good thing

>>19429469
I meant that phrase as the Christianity many of you were raised with. No, I'm not gatekeeping, I could care less about the 3 of you who have actually converted, but 97% of the people I talk to here who claim to be orthodox talk out of their ass and have no idea what half the traditions are.

>>19429119
I am an Orthodox Christian and so I am posting to check-in though the way threads on religion go on this board, I am not going to participate as I'm sure I'd get moved to anger.

What's the Orthodox stance on ecology or conservation? Just to compare with Catholic developments in recent years.

>>19429483
>I meant that phrase as the Christianity many of you were raised with
Yeah, I know. I’m not sure why you are framing it in a way that Americans interested in Orthodoxy think that they are ‘too good’ for ‘American Christianity’ though. You act like it is some sort of flex to look superior. You need to stop thinking like everything is about memes or LARPing, because I can assure you that it’s not. I wasn’t satisfied with the Christianity I grew up with. It was hollow, soulless and seemed to be at odds with the historical church as I understood it, and I found the writings of the Church Fathers to be far richer and compelling than anything I heard from Protestants. What I like about Orthodoxy is the long history, the tradition, the beauty of its art, liturgies, etc. and mystic traditions. Most American churches don’t offer this. It’s an honor to even have Orthodox churches near me.

>>19429419
>>19429419
I am not american, and I am a cathecumen still. My church celebrates thr Lithurgy both in russian and my local language. About icons I have two prints: one of Mary and one of Jesus (I don't want to buy nice icons before I get my heart in the right place). I am voluntarely not studying anything about saints yet, I really want to have a better grasp on my personal relationship with Jesus before going into that. No one in my family is Orthodox so everything about feasts for Saints is coming later I guess. The same with fasting, my priest adviced me to pray a lot and read The Bible everyday while attending the Divine Lithurgy before jumping into that, I guess it's to avoid doing it like pharisee.
It's not that I am better than Western Christianity, but there is something in me that is screaming for a breath from secularism, its like materialism always felt crushingly heavy on my shoulders and Orthodoxy seems like the only way out of that.

>>19429533
That's a good way of putting it, I understand you anon. It's just hard to tell when someone is being genuine on here

>>19429556
Yeah, it definitely is. I’m sure it can be frustrating to see LARPers treading all over the traditions you are connected to. I understand

I've seen despair referred to as a sin in catholic threads, is it the same in the orthodox church?

>>19429119
suddenly there is a huge fight on /lit/ between catholics and orthodox.
but you know kinda actually fuck the pope.

>>19429384
Same in this region. The only one within 2 hours that doesn't say that is an Antiochian that was an Evangelical congregational conversion in the 60s. I can't travel 2 hours each way for it. Orthodoxy is a LARP.

>>19429678
>I can't travel 2 hours each way for it. Orthodoxy is a LARP.

>>19429765
There are closer but they say Greek only. They don't care that someone is wanting to come into what is supposedly Christ's true church.

>>19429419
>I'm just a bit baffled by the americans who think they are too good for american christianity, I don't mean to be hostile.
NO NO YOU CAN'T HAVE PREFERENCES. Seriously, why do you gaslight those who want to find Christ and community?

>>19429373
>"Divine Liturgy"
Why shouldn't OP mention it?
>all those books in the OP
This is /lit/, sir.

>>19429791
Are these the Antiochan ones? I had heard they were pretty convert friendly. What do you mean by ‘Greek only’? Do you mean the liturgy? In that case I do sympathize. I was pretty adamant on finding an English liturgy myself

Orthodox church that I visited in real life:
>love-bombed by old ladies, the priest and young men with greetings and hospitality

Orthodox online
>NOOOO YOU CAN’T LOOK INTO OUR CHURCH, LARPER

>>19429895
Different people have different experiences!? Whoa. Stunning insight. The number of "orthodox" Orthodox churches are far and few between.

>>19429883
The Antiochian is the one that's 2 hrs away. The closer ones are just Greek Orthodox, and are populated only with Greeks who tell non Greeks to go away.

>>19429906
No, the point is that gatekeeping retards online aren’t representative of the people that actually attend these churches in real life. Literally just don’t go to some ethnic social club ‘church’ or be some sort of stinky incel Jay Dyer fan and they’ll love you

>>19429119
I just got Baptized, about to take Communion for the first time on Sunday. Praise be unto God!

>>19429909
I highly doubt they will tell you to go away. GOARCH is incredibly friendly to new converts.

>>19429384
go to a mosque next time and they will accept you whatever your origin might be

>>19429119
Based

>>19429356
Yeah, it's bad to see the conflict between those two online.

>>19430406
I'll bet. The average Imam actually believes Islam is the true faith, very few Orthodox Priests believe Orthodox Christianity is the true faith exclusively.

Does a single community of Christians exist on the internet where people actually behave like Christians or is it all political virtue signaling, LARP and interconfessional console wars? Really getting tired of this shite bros. And the threads always 404.
I have been unironically thinking of making a textboard that covers all three confessions but the amount of aggravation and spam over certain topics would be too much.

>>19430927
Not on the internet but if you want a community of Christians 100% committed to walking the walk then you want the Bruderhof

https://www.bruderhof.com/

>>19429119
Why is Gnosticism consisted evil? Why should I not listen to mommy Mary Magdalene? She seems to understand me.

>>19430937
I saw a community of modern day Quakers who still use thee and thou and like 2/3 of the content was focused on autogynephiliac rights. Is this going to be a similar thing?

>>19429119
Life of Moses by St. Gregory of Nyssa.
Also been reading about St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian's lives, how they were both really good friends who wanted to just be monks but were both ordained against their will.

>>19429419
Your post sounds extremely pharisiatic. If your replace some words in it a Talmudic Jew could have easily written it.

>>19429119
>Whatcha reading, anons?
Wisdom of Solomon.
>>For blessed is the wood whereby righteousness cometh.
Now I see what St. Paul meant by Jews (and other unbelievers) having a veil over their eyes when reading scripture. It really is all talking about Jesus.
>>19430356
Praise be to God.
That's great, anon.

>>19429384
This is a very fishy story.

>>19431039
No. Bruderhof communities live traditional lifestyles off the land but they're not Amish. They simply live basic lives because it allows them to donate more of the money they make to charity.

>>19429330
I was raised orthodox and believe that there can be genuine converts, though I have yet to meet any from the anglosphere.
t. român

>>19429419
Im romanian and we celebrate Christmas on the 25th, and so do most greeks and bulgarians. And here houses also dont have particular feast days for their family saint.

Who judges the "sincerity" of a convert? Is there a 4chan official body?

>>19431144
>Wisdom of Solomon.
Great choice, anon. I recently read that for the first time myself. It is a real hidden gem, I think, for many reasons.

Scared of going to my first DL bros. Don't wanna look dumb kissing icons and not knowing what to do.

>>19431553
Read this: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/frederica/12-things

You don’t have to any of that kissing of icons either, by the way. I didn’t when I visited, I just stood and did the sign of the cross during the liturgy when everyone else did, pretty much. It’s definitely an interesting experience.

>>19430927
>Does a single community of Christians exist on the internet where people actually behave like Christians or is it all political virtue signaling, LARP and interconfessional console wars?

In terms of a discussion board, byzcath.org maintains a respectful tone at almost all times, even when discussing controversial issues as between Catholics and Orthodox. The discussions are generally at a high level, with some very learned souls, and also less learned but sincere believers.

>>19431575
>Roman catholicism website
That's literally a counsel of the ungodly.

Went to my second Divine Liturgy today.
The one I went to last week was an hour away but this one was in the next town over - I went to the first because I didn't know there was anything closer. It's such a small parish that the same priest presides over it and the farther one.
Unlike last week, instead of a choir, most of the singing was done by the congregation, and a very nice old lady handed me a service book and invited me to join in. I got a little lost in the second half once they started adding in calendar-based stuff, but it was still nice to participate more than just woodenly standing there looking lost like last time.
Also, while last week I just kind of watched everything in a detached sort of way, this week I started to appreciate the service I was attending and feel a bit of wonder and awe at it. I can't believe I spent my whole life going to dry LDS services with barely a reference to God or Christ - here almost every other sentence was "Lord, have mercy" or "Grant this, O Lord." The very small chapel and congregation of barely a dozen people added to the sense of wonder and entering a world beyond this one. The high point of the service, for me, was when the congregation sang a very slow and somber piece that went something like "let us lay aside all earthly cares" over and over, sounding both like a funeral chant and like a reminder to become dead to the world.
After it was finished, there was a coffee hour and small meal served, with food brought by a couple old Romanian ladies that turned out to be quite good. I chatted with the priest and a couple people for a minute and left before they started their parish council, figuring it would be a little weird for an outsider to sit in on decisions about the parish budget and the like.
Overall, it was very nice, though I was probably the youngest guy there and one of maybe three college-aged people attending. I think I'll go again.

>>19432399
Glad to hear that you went again, anon. Enjoyable to read your impressions, especially since I can imagine that LDS services are very different (given the bit that I know about their beliefs) That sounds like a comfy and hospitable little church you’ve found.

Any Syriac Orthodox here?

>>19429356
>It disappoints me the western Church is often treated with such hostility by online Orthodox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople

>>19429356
All of Catholics ignore this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine which proves on what made up bullshit they decided to separate Christianity. Also Cucktholics literally let Filliloque be cuck inserted into Nicean Creed for no reason but spite of the Basilius Romanum

>>19429895
Fuck off, you are already treating it like a tourist reception instead of Communion of Truth.

LEAVE FILTH

>>19432865
No one can join the church if they don’t inquire into first, retard

>>19432885
You got it all wron filth, you are not joining because of inquiry, you are inquiring because you are joined with Christ IMBECILE KYS

>>19432889
Go back to your Jay Dyer discord, incel

Tomorrow I think I will waste a train ticket and go to this Orthodox Church. I have been going to a Catholic chapel near home but I feel drawn to Orthodoxy.
The problems I have are one, it's a Russian thing. Russian liturgy, people attending are all Russian, Romanian, etc. I think this might be a pointless visit if I can't understand a word. But I know that people did it anyway? Wasn't this how Seraphim Rose started out?
Another problem is that I just don't have a fully formed idea on certain things. Was Mary a virgin only until conception? The Filioque thing? I have no idea. My problem is that with Catholicism is that I feel far too distant, too many revisions, all too modern, not a fan of the Pope, not a fan of certain institutional decisions that were obviously political or pandering. I want to and I feel like can be a sincere Christian but I cannot be a Catholic specifically with the same sincerity. The liturgy makes my heart sink.
I know this isn't the best place to asks but is it worth it of me to go, should I try to find another church that isn't Russian? Am I going to embarrass myself if I can't participate to the liturgy, will I be called to do things?

>>19433033
visit a sufi mosque

>>19433033
>it's a Russian thing. Russian liturgy, people attending are all Russian, Romanian, etc. I think this might be a pointless visit if I can't understand a word. But I know that people did it anyway? Wasn't this how Seraphim Rose started out?
That’s up to you, really. For me, I definitely value it being in English as I like to understand it, but the Divine Liturgy is beautiful in every language I have heard it. For me personally though I definitely looked for a church that did it in English. I think you’re right that Seraphim Rose did first go to a Russian one if I am remembering correctly.

>Was Mary a virgin only until conception?
No, Mary was a virgin for the entirety of her life. St. John Maximovitch wrote a good book on this–“The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God”

>The Filioque thing?
A later edition to the Creed that is problematic for several reasons, mainly in that it can be seen to subordinate the Holy Spirit and undermine the role of the Father in the Trinity. John 15:26 makes it clear the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.

>Am I going to embarrass myself if I can't participate to the liturgy, will I be called to do things?
No, the main thing to know is that you just wouldn’t be able to do the Eucharist if you’re not baptized into the church. Otherwise you basically just have to stand during the liturgy and do the sign of the cross and all that occasionally.

>>19433221
He’d be better off going to a Prot megachurch than anywhere frequented by Muslims who blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ

>>19433033
>I have no idea
It's solely a modern idea that you need to have an idea on every doctrine before being part of the Church. It really is all messed up.
The Holy Spirit was promised to lead us into all truth by Jesus, not ourself getting it from study and only then coming to Him.
I think it is worth to go, the divine liturgy is an experience where God descends directly to us and this necessarily transcends language, as the example of Fr. Seraphim and of the Russian (then non-christian) envoys to Byzantium shows.

>>19429119
For a little thought exercise, if you all may be inclined, what would you say to convince a Protestant to convert?

>>19433033
>Filioque
Just think of it like this. Filioque introduces a diad into the Holy Trinity. It makes the Father and Son together have something the Holy Spirit lacks, namely participation in causing a divine person. This is nonsensical because all properties of the persons are shared, except for those which make the persons themselves. The Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten and the Spirit is spirated. This is the only thing you can say about them in isolation, everything else is common to all of them.

This is the very clear teaching on hypostatic properties by the Cappadocians, whose theology is what is upheld at the second ecumenical council.

>>19433555
Depends on what kind of person it is. But either way, I would undermine that he has any right to even use the Holy Bible, since it was given solely to the visible Body of Christ gathered around apostles and their successors.
I would say he has absolutely no basis for believing the Holy Bible is true if he also distrusts the Church and posits it fell into apostasy. If you were to be logical, either you already have the divine mind itself so fully know the truth in each case, or you have no way of separating truth and falsehood from what the Church spoke (except pure subjectivism), which Holy Scripture is merely a part of. A bad tree does not produce good fruit.

Maybe check out Fr. Daniel Sysoev's book addressed to protestants, he's a martyr who was killed by a Muslim (12 years ago on this day actually) right in his church. Converted many protestants in his life.

>>19433608
Quite too aggressive. You do not suppose they might have been born into said denomination, and attack their faith. It wouldn't be very nice to hear the same things yourself would it?
Also he may be against Catholicism due to disliking the concept of worshipping saints or a pope.
He could wonder what the Orthodox is, and if maybe a bit summed up, would enjoy a little course.

>>19433555
I would first try to demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is an incoherent doctrine, especially in the light of the fact that Protestants in the Reformation removed numerous books from the Bible and even attempted to remove James for theological reasons, but that was not allowed to through. Scripture alone doesn’t affirm Sola Scriptura, on the contrary it gives of an indication of an extra-scriptural Tradition. One example is in 2 Thessalonians 2:15—“Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or by our epistle”. Similar words are said in 2 Timothy 2:2 also has similar implications: “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” So these verses alone establish that Paul and the apostles were teaching the people they came in contact with various doctrines and ideas that complement the Scriptures. And of course, the Scriptures of the Church were determined by the Church, the same Church that Jesus Christ established at Pentecost when He sent the Holy Spirit unto the Apostles and those assembled with them.

It would also be good to point out the fact that the Church in the Bible is shown ordaining deacons in Acts 6. More about deacons and bishops can be found in 1 Timothy 3:1-13. Some translations say “overseer” for bishop, but that is literally what bishop means. Titus 1:7-9 says more about the qualifications for bishops, and Titus 1:5-6 mentions “elders” (presbyters, from which we get the word ‘priest’). Paul was known to appoint elders in every church he founded (Acts 14:23)

The Apostles themselves were the first bishops of the Church, seen in Acts 1:20, where a Psalm is quoted in relation to replacing Judas, saying “Let another take his office”—the word used for office is ‘episkope’.

Even early letters like that of Ignatius, bishop of Antioch from ~67 A.D. to 107 A.D. writes “I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.” This is a very early letter, and thus an important piece of evidence.
http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/royaltyr/AncientCities/web/bradleyj/Project%201/The%20Epistle%20of%20Ignatius%20to%20the%20Philadelphians.htm

The only major thing that would need taken down now is the papacy but this is long enough right now I think

>>19433699
Very coherent and interesting.

>>19433657
That's why you need to know who it is. By the way you phrased it it seemed to me you were talking about a convinced protestant.
If it's just someone from a "mere Christianity" type of view I would still stress the apostolic nature of scripture and show how the churches it talks about still exist as visible entities and were always conceived as such, except by fringe outlier groups who were still a part of the church if they had differences. Believers should be united in one body as Christ prayed for us, separating and doing your own thing is a sin as taught by St. Paul. Maybe also talk about how only in Orthodoxy really is the view of Jesus in the Old Testament preserved. Depends on the person really, there's a lot to talk about in Orthodoxy.

>>19433727
>separating and doing your own things is sin
where is that?

>>19433657
>It wouldn't be very nice to hear the same things yourself would it?
If it was false, I would prefer it demolished decisively so I don't believe in anymore.

>>19433741
Me too, but that was more of a slap in the face than a demolition

>>19433735
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

>>19433748
It destroys the very basis for protestantism so I would consider it a demolition. If you take the logic seriously you either have to be completely enlightened or become apostate. It reduces to absurdity.

>>19433555
>>19433712
Glad to help. On the topic of icons, the classic source for that is St. John of Damascus’ work ‘On Holy Images’ (excerpts from it in the link below):
http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/20A/Icons.html
This is the classic account that distinguishes between veneration and worship.

There is even a bit of evidence that Jewish synagogues were very artistic and highly decorated in the past. The classic examples of these are the Dura-Europos synagogue which while being a post-Christian synagogue, provided evidence of beautiful iconography that adorned the walls of this building. Even looking at the Wikipedia page will demonstrate this. The synagogue of Huqoq is very similar, and iconography of Samson, Noah’s ark, Jonah and many other Biblical events are found depicted within. Again, this synagogue is ‘only’ 1,600 years old and thus post-Christian, but it shows that this was by no means foreign to the cultural context that Christianity emerged from. These are best viewed in reference to what St. John of Damascus says though, of course, because just because post-Christian Jews do it doesn’t make it Christian, but it’s an interesting piece of supporting evidence, since so many people think that the prohibition of idols implies no art at all, no depictions of human beings, etc., as many Muslims tend to think today.

Regarding relics of saints, we have early accounts regarding the martrydom of St. Polycarp (who died in ~155 A.D.), disciple of St. John the Apostle which are interesting:
>The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

Regarding the asking the saints for intercession, I have always viewed it as no different than asking a living person to pray for me.

>>19433293
Thanks for the answers, anon.
>you just wouldn’t be able to do the Eucharist if you’re not baptized into the church
I am baptized Catholic, but not confirmed, which as I understand is the Orthodox equivalent of chrismation. Never received the Eucharist, not once. I was raised atheist, basically, so I took my first communion like everyone does then never went to church again except weddings, funerals and other such things. In the last year I've been in church frequently but always outside liturgy hours, because I know the Catholic liturgy and I cannot stomach any of it.
>>19433578
>Filioque introduces a diad into the Holy Trinity
Oh this explains it very simply. Seems nonsensical given my understanding of the Trinity, I had no idea this was a Catholic thing either. But I was mostly just saying "what if I don't understand exactly what I am saying" and this anon >>19433541 answered that. I'll report back tomorrow if the thread is still up.

>>19433779
You reckon a chat with the relevant authority at my church and an orthodox one at different points would result in some nice results?

>>19433765
>selfish ambitions
i would not count searching for God a selfish ambition.

>>19433817
I don’t see why not. It’s important to get multiple perspectives. Plus it may give you more things to research, contemplate and prayer over in searching for the Truth.

>>19433827
Oh, scrap that, i took it out of context. I'd be glad to pray and discuss theology with any other christians, denomination irrelevant.

>>19433829
I still can't get over thinking the 'veneration' deal isn't just mental gymnastics.
Might be offensive stated like so, but i'd rather be very obnoxious with my most pressing doubts.

>>19433842
Actually do you pray to or just recognize them?
What would be an example of such a prayer, if so?

I tried to go to a Divine Liturgy a few weeks ago and the night before as I prayed mice started scratching loudly in the walls, ruining my concentration, and then while driving I almost got T-boned by another car on the way there, and almost rear-ended another person when driving home after the Liturgy. Over all it was a good experience, but I don’t even know if I’ll survive if I try to go tomorrow. Are demons trying to kill me or something?

>>19433869
Your car's cursed, bro. The only way to exorcise the demonic oppression acting upon it is to replace the cursed part, likely the engine, with a part known to be blessed and holy, for example by performing an LS swap.

>>19433876
>>19433869
>Your car's cursed, bro.
And it's a /lit/ curse! It must've been an inside job...

>>19431152
It shouldn't be because a disproportionate number of stories about ex-protestants deciding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches often has them first going to the Orthodox and either being turned off by the "ethnic social club" thing or straight up being told by the priests to become Catholic instead because they're not Greek, Russian, etc. This isn't just one-offs from random anons.

Saw these St. Paul books brought up in the Catholic thread before it bump-limited and archived. Apparently OOP but filled with useful theological analysis. Is anyone familiar with it? I found copies and am considering them.

>>19434116
I've read a Twitter thread about it. Seems like an incredibly good book, and also has a thorough defense of Pauls theophany
https://twitter.com/Vhorwort/status/1452343005189484549

>>19434116
It's really unforgivable for something to be out of print in this day where print on demand services are available everywhere.

>>19434216
Interesting thread, thank you for posting it. This definitely rouses my interests. Paul’s conversion, as the thread says, has always been a thorn in the side of many

>>19433869
Unironically that might be the case, it is known for example that many Muslims who turned to Christ have experienced various obstacles trying to distrust their baptism. But remember that any demon is simply powerless before you if God does not allow it to act. Your life is entirely in His hands at every moment.

>>19434116
>theology of St. Paul
Sounds like it's saying there is some distinct "Pauline theology" as if it is separate from the theology of the Old and New Testament. The classical Orthodox view is that St. Paul's theology is hesyachasm so I doubt an RC source would be helpful.

>>19434774
Yeah I think there might have unironically been something going on that day. I have been praying for many months now for God to guide me to the Truth, and that the was the first time I had gone out and actually tried to engage in anything spiritual that wasn’t a solo activity. It was a bit spooky, but you are right, ultimately there is nothing to fear. As Paul says, this is spiritual warfare, not a struggle against flesh and blood, and he uses similar military metaphors in other epistles. The only thing to do is to put on the full armor of God and persevere. I’ve decided I’m going again tomorrow, and I’m fully alert and plan to pray a lot tonight in order to prepare. They’ve showed their hand too soon against me

Tonight I had a weird dream about sisters. I lost my post before so I'll type it quickly again or I'll miss the train. I don't remember the first one, but the second looked old, dry, and ravaged by cancer, and she was complaining about a group of people who were ruining everything. This was is a very small place, maybe underground, with only a few chairs. I was hearing her complaints with two men, and we were not part of the group but sort of "called" in, like journalists. The two other guys were journalists, and they looked at me while she talked with an expression like "get a load of this idiot" but I couldn't play along because I knew that she was right. Then the most vivid part of the dream was about the third one, who was young and had black hair, who is desperate about this group of people she is attending regularly. She eventually goes to this party, which really looked like some kind of Masonic thing with a large black table in a cave-like room, she produces a gun from her purse and starts shooting them all... But they don't die, because they're vampires. Everyone groans while covered in bullet wounds, but they slowly rise up. And the head of this congregation is an older woman who stretched taller and taller after this action, to something like 10 ft, towering over the girl. Her whole body and face are stretched eerily as she grew. And then she said only something like "all right, it is settled then". Then there's the girl laying prone on the table without a shirt, and the tall woman is drawing a cicle upon her back. I suspect that the girl was one of them and the tall woman was "removing" her membership.
I woke up at 06:00 right on the second with the rosary in my hand. I wonder what the dream means on the morning I'm visiting the Orthodox church.
Now I'll finish getting dressed.

I hope there will be an /ocg/ thread for a long time to come. At least until Hiro gets it together and makes a seperate religion board.

>>19433869
Maybe God is trying to stop you from becoming a Mary worshiping LARPer and wants you to go to Brother Jimbo's Sanctified Tabernacle of Christ's Holy Ghost instead, unironically.

>>19429791
It's not a good representation of the EOC as a whole. Greeks are an extremely proud people (not that other ethnicities aren't). They remain truly arrogant, and I think that's why there's the impression of converts being holier than thou to others. They were the cradle for western philosophy, art, and even mathematics. This means that you must remain sharp, as they'll shit-test you to madness.

Furthermore, Greco interactions with other cultures has always been a bit explosive (think the Turks, as well as the crusaders). They aren't quick to trust anyone, and remain closely guarded about all their traditions (not cryptic, but protective). So when they see an Anglo, they may recoil.

Other than outright learning to read Greek, which isn't a requirement, you should hold your ground. Be persistent. Go to greek fest. Do the dancing. They'll initially despise you, but then love you.

>>19432720
Nobody?

>>19435662
Anon, Syriac Orthodox are either chads who dont use 4chan or else they're stuck in muslim countries and dont use 4chan
that said, I'm surprised an Antiochian hasnt responded to you since its quite a similar group afaik

>>19435696
>chads who dont use 4chan
I guess I'm the only one then. I was hoping some anons could point me towards resources to learn syriac (spoken, not liturgical) since I never bothered learning it when I was little and now nobody in my family has the time to teach me.

>>19435715
I'm learning it slowly right now to read scripture and I don't think I have seen resources in English for the spoken regular language. Maybe start with just learning to read the Gospel and proceed from there? I know about Orthodox people who have learned various languages in this way.

>>19429119
Of all the LARPs here, this is by far the most pathetic.

>>19435876
Maybe I'll do that and read the Peshitta. I just checked and there are also syriac teaching courses done by members of the community not far from where I live but it's probably for kids.

It was extremely beautiful, glad that I went. I love everything about Orthodoxy, attendance was all younger people instead of old ladies, for the first time in my life I felt like I was attending mass, although I didn't understand a thing because it was all in Russian. At first it was just the priest doing a droning chant, but nobody told me there would be amazing singing with a choir. It was amazing. I left after they closed the "doors" and started admnistering Eucharist. Other people were leaving too.

>claims to be an orthodog
>can’t experience pic related

Carry on amerimutt LARPers

>>19435927
Is that an answer to my post? I'm neither Orthodox nor American

>>19435927
I know this is a demonic post, but St. John of Shanghai is a widely venerated saint with relics in San Francisco of all places.

>>19435890
Yknow there are some of us who are not larping by any possible definition?
t. serb and a different one from earlier in the thread

>>19435915
Glad you enjoyed it anon. God bless and may you find your spiritual home with us

>>19435973
My only problem is I literally cannot afford to spend ~20€ per week on pretty much anything. I think I'll go again the next week but I'll have to do every other week after then.

>>19436050
Well that and I have not received the rites and I can't understand anything.

>>19429361
Adult converts to religion are 99% unhinged weirdos, sorry but that's just the reality
>t raised catholic

>>19435915
Based. As for understanding, maybe look up a translation to familiarize yourself with the liturgy, there are videos in English explaining the basic structure of it. You could also try learning the most common words used in the priestly blessings (Lord, God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, peace and so on). You can understand a lot of things just by intonation if you are familiar enough with the liturgy.
The chanting you heard first was the hours, (the third and sixth hour) remembering the time of Pentecost and the crucifixion of our Lord. It's not part of the divine liturgy strictly speaking and in earlier times was actually done at the specified times of day.
Also if you are familiar with the psalms/gospel and know which parts of it are sang at what time, that would help a lot. For example we sing the beatitudes when the priest goes into the altar with the Gospel book.
That's what I would do at least if I had to experience the liturgy in an unknown language.

>>19433869
It’s happening again, I just woke up 20
minutes for Divine Liturgy... I can still make it though, I planned to get up really early

>>19435212
I was thinking about trying to make a thread maybe every Thursday or Friday

>>19435915
>At first it was just the priest doing a droning chant, but nobody told me there would be amazing singing with a choir. It was amazing
Oh wow, you went in blind! That might have been the best choice though. I looked a little bit into what would it would be like before I first attended one, but I never knew the extent of how much singing and stuff was in the liturgy. Even still it is very different to experience in person, and to smell the incense and all that. That was one of the aspects that had me want to attend again, for sure.

I dont know if anyone would remember, I posted a strange dream a while ago whereby within I was told to "Face my greatest fear" and I saw a Greek Orthodox Priest with his back to me and light in front of him. In that thread I mentioned I would attend a Greek Orthodox Monastery that weekend - and some of the anons in that thread asked me for an update.


I spoke to the Geronda/Elder/Abbott of the monastery. It was a brief conversation where I brought up my time in proximity to the Church, not being born Orthodox and my finding the faith more on my own.

My first question to him was how I could be sure I was getting baptized for the right reasons. I mentioned how i've been attending fellowships for the last two/three years and have mostly been absorbing the theology through youth talks by Priests and various speakers - and how I wasnt sure if I was simply here selfishly, for the social aspect and company rather than the theology. He said to me the osmosis is valid, and that the church is the people not the building, and that my approach was valid as well. I then asked if I could attend confession as someone not baptized.

The Geronda was very pleasant and soft spoken, and I want to emphasize this was for the entire duration of the trip, and the Paraklesis (sorry i dont know if this is the right word, night/afternoon service more or less) as well. However when I asked this question he became stern and quite fierce. He said Technically no, but he would go out of his way to help me, and encouranged me to attend a confession he will be holding more locally, two days from now, The monastary is 2-3 hours from the city where I live.
>My questions from here
Do you anons think it would be appropriate to talk to him about the dream I had? I had an out of body experience was trembling for three days. I spoke to a good friend of mine in the Fellowships I've been attending and he said it very much sounded like a vision. Other than that I just have to write down some other questions I had and go from there.

>>19436180
Further to this, I also attended a panel of Greek orthodox priests where one of the questions I submitted anonymously was answered.

I'm going to omit some details but i'll post my questions here. Please forgive the answers they're paraphrased from my notes.


>Dear Fathers
>I am not Cradle-Orthodox and have had a troubled life. In such times I've often found solace in Asian style Zen teachings, Greek and Roman stoicism, and secular meditation; this being in order to achieve a state of calm and appreciate the world around me.
>In my search for the truth I found the Greek Orthodox church, and I feel as if I am still a novice on my spiritual path within. In my discussions I've found this type of self-cultivation to be quite a taboo topic. Why is finding peace in the self and self-reliance considered wrong within the Church?


---
Fr 1:
It's called Pallagianism? it is considered a Heresy,
you can focus on yourself and fix yourself up but it is not possible - you need someone's help. You need someone from the outside who can help you with
your issues.

You need a saviour.

Try to understand the liturgical life of the church.

-

Fr 2: From Archbishop Stylianos: "My identity is my sin"
as humans we need to recognise ourselves as broken and needing help - when we put reliance on ourselves we are putting our faith in something that is inherently broken. We have to seek help from the one who has created us and is creating us every day to find true peace.

Analogy: as a parent do not pretend to be perfect but go that you are not and in the process of being better - communicate this to your kids.

-

Fr 3: There is a place for cultivation of self and finding peace in ones self - we shouldnt rely on our selves completly we need to surrender
certain things to God and request guidence from God.

There is a strong sense of self cultivation in the Orthodox Church.

My adv. We have a very strong spiritual tradition that is on Par with those forms of teachings/worldviews/philosophies/similar systems.

see Philocalic and mystical tradition. Book of the ladder > 30 steps toward heaven.
We shouldnt rely solely on our self but is exteremly essential that each individual takes on the violition to achieve this.
"aftexusion idea" in theology - you are in charge of your self. there is free will and you can choose a certain path - this must be balanced.

Not fully reliant of self but you need to be... [balanced?]

-

Fr 4: Mulan: song: When you find you're center you're sure to win. [jokingly]
When you give yourself up to someone you lose yourself and you lose your freedom
- this is the opposite with God - you find your true self.

Great example - Peter the fisherman, jesus steps into his boat and starts giving commands. Peter could have said no any time. Peter listens
"our whole life we have toiled but on your word we will do it" A saint is somone that would put God at the very center of our life, then
you will find your true self.

---

>>19436180
You are a neurotic schizo and the monk/priest will tell you to cut that shit out
There is nothing weird about having an OBE. The point is that you are the narcicistic type of schizo, the kind that believes he is special or gifted and feels the need to stalk or bother other people with whatever weird shit his dreams regurgitate. No one cares, no one cares about you, stop living in your head. Unironically touch some grass and shut the fuck up

>>19436226
Thanks Dr Reddit, im glad you could psychoanlyse for free and brush off the almost literal symbolism I was presented within a linear narrative like dream. Something that caused the person I trust and spoke with, who preficed our conversation with "It's best not to give to much credence to these things" to pause. I guarantee I have more friends and spend more time outdoors than you do.

>>19436226
Thanks Dr Reddit

>>19436270
You deleted your previous post, I can imagine whatever anxiety and over thinking you felt

No for real anon who has time to write and care about stuff like >>19436180 or >>19436213

>>19436290
sorry, I guess It took me a while to realise you were retarded.

>Here is a snippit of something that came out of nowhere and never happened to me before, which i've discussed with others and might've been a spiritual experience, here is what else i'm currently doing on my path to Orthodoxy.

>Shut up shut up shut up shizo fuck


Anon, sincerely, I hope wherever you're trying to get to you have an easier journey than me.

>>19436213
>Asian style Zen teachings, Greek and Roman stoicism, and secular meditation
All absolutely demonic. If you follow this it will lead you into damnation, anon.
Do not trust the visions you receive and drop any semblance of non-Orthodox practice, any elder or priest will tell this to you. It's not a good spiritual practice especially for the novice.

>>19436352
Why is everything demons with you people? Can't help but see it as pure fear mongering to avoid having to confront other doctrines.

>>19436180
If you truly believe in Jesus Christ as the Word of God who became incarnate and died for our sins, you ought to be in the Orthodox Church. There is no real reason to not get baptized. The demons especially have easy access to someone not protected by Christ's grace. Confession is a sacrament for those who got baptized but fell away from Christ by their sins so I don't see much point in it before baptism, except perhaps to learn to open up your sins to a priest.

>>19436357
Because it's the truth. All of our saintly spiritual writings teach that heresy is a result of demonic deception, as is all falsehood and sin.

>>19436362
>Because it's the truth.
Hardly convincing

>>19436366
>convincing
This is not an argument. I'm just stating what that the truth is, if you want to be convinced it's necessary to actually practice Orthodoxy or somehow be turned by Christ to see the lowness of the demonic practices. Read Fr. Seraphim Rose and St. Paisios.
https://www.daimonologia.org/2016/08/saint-paisios-athonite-on-deluders-and.html

>>19436389
>I'm just stating what that the truth is
I'm sorry but you're not an ambassador of the truth, you worship a semitic desert demon Yahweh as God. You are the demon worshipper here.

>>19436401
>Jesus is a demon
Repent.

>>19436357
>>19436366

this is why orthodogs look down on amerimutts
they simply can't help themselves bringing their dogshit new age or new york buddhism in what is a cherished eastern europe tradition

this is why for example that anons keeps getting told that he is not allowed in a greek orthodox community. You guys are sick in the head and need to shove your mental garbage in anything and twist it to your desire's licking
I mean I am not an orthodoxy practitioner since I just ended up being born in the balkans, but you idiots are literally not mentally prepared to handle othodoxy

>>19436389
But this is fallacious, since every religion has the exact same kind of "if you practice, you will see our path is the only truth" argument; and according to this religion's followers, it works. So why orthodoxy and not the others?
I've read Rose and he just attacks Watts, perennialists and new age garbage rather than actual traditions.
>>19436451
You're arguing against a strawman, I'm neither american nor a new ager.

>>19436161
I'm glad I didn't know because when the singing started it really hit me. I got misty eyed for a minute, it was enchanting.
I loved everything about it. There were little kids scurrying by and people were lighting these candles but there were ladies who cleaned up the spent candles, wiped the icons' glass. Sadly everyone had masks and no icon kissing due to laws. But I just have no doubt that this is how it's supposed to be.
>>19436117
I'm going to learn some Russian for the next time I go. I'm bummed that I left before it really ended though, but I'm technically foreign. There's also the possibility I'll be told "Russians only, sorry" although people looked friendly and there's a mix of Russian-speaking ethnicities involved, but you never know.

>>19436504
> I'm bummed that I left before it really ended though
It's traditional to not have catechumens or unbaptized present for the liturgy of the faithful. Nowadays this isn't held to so much because most people will be baptized, but in the liturgy there is actual call from the deacon/priest for catechumens to leave at a certain point. In the US it depends on the parish, but here in Russia nobody leaves since the sermon is usually at the very end after communion.
As far as I know, with Russian churches in the US there are more convert-friendly (so actually doing their mission) than what you hear from anons about Antiochian priests telling people to remain Roman Catholics.

>>19436495
>our path is the only truth
Nobody makes this claim actually expect Orthodoxy if you really think about this. Pagans don't even have a real notion of salvation, just a lesser comfort or an entire delusional escape from reality, Islam thinks Jews and "generic monotheists" can be saved, Jews think righteous gentiles will be saved to be eternal slaves. Even Christian heresies generally think along these lines.
>So why orthodoxy and not the others?
Because it is given by God, the rest is by demons. Orthodoxy is what is revealed to Adam and salvation by Christ was promised to him (Genesis 3:15).

>>19436548
>Nobody makes this claim actually expect Orthodoxy
Every religion thinks theirs is the perfect path and the others are either lesser or invalid.
>Because it is given by God, the rest is by demons.
How do you know this?

>>19436495
>So why orthodoxy and not the others
if you don't believe that Orthodogsy is the one true path then Orthodogsy is not for you and will never be
the first rule of it is to do only as your priests tell, and take for granted and for real the writings of the most cherished balkan or russian priests/monks

obviously there will be idiots from the outside like you that feel the need to act all smartass and deconstruct it, while still demanding to be accepted in it. In that aspect orthodoxy cuts idiots like you from the root and doesn't even bother debating you

>>19436581
I can't tell if this post is satire.
If it's not
>still demanded to be accepted in it
Acquire some reading comprehension, moron.

>>19436579
>>Because it is given by God, the rest is by demons.
>How do you know this?
this is LITERALLY every religion one way or another, you aren't a smartass for realizing this
religion is basically you abandoning yourself to it's literal lore and deluding yourself it's real with like minded schizo people
none will provide you the logical or "true" proofs for the validity of any religion, there aren't and there never will be

>>19436600
>this is LITERALLY every religion
Sure, but some less than others, the "don't ask questions" component isn't necessarily that strong elsewhere. I'm not a buddhist nor do I even like their shit but at least they give concrete and rational arguments for most of their beliefs, for example, and don't just go "we're true, the rest is demons, either believe it or shut the fuck up"

>>19436624
>the "don't ask questions" component isn't necessarily that strong elsewhere
all major religions have this component strong in them

>but at least they give concrete and rational arguments for most of their beliefs
these arguments are still beliefs at the end of the day, no matter how deconstructed, impersonal or big-brain they seem to you

>>19436644
Do you have any particular metaphysical beliefs or are you a skeptic of some kind?

>>19436653
yes I do, after experiencing some lucid dreams and OBEs. That's basically my only idea or hint of any weird metaphysical stuff that may exist. But it beats any dogma or religion. I don't care about discussing it or debating it with other people, the only thing I care is that people should only believe what they experienced, I don't care about being an orthodox shill ITT

>>19436670
>after experiencing some lucid dreams and OBEs.
How did you induce them, do you have any specific methods?
>it beats any dogma
What do you make of the criticism that it is easy without a spiritual framework (religion) to be misled by experiences while remaining unaware of their deeper meaning? I think orthodox call it prelest, other religions have their own versions too.

>>19436676
>How did you induce them, do you have any specific methods?
I don't care about derailing the thread with these topics but tl;dr mindfulness meditation, dream journaling. Galantamine if you want a direct ticket to dream land, the internet has all the info

>spiritual framework
schizo babble, basically vague magical thinking term that doesn't mean anything practical, just has nice emotional hooks to it. Not my problem or concern.
>fear of being misled
I don't care about it. I don't care about being mislead, whatever that means, and I don't care that what I believe is wrong. I have the full responsibility for whatever I believe, think or act.

>>19436707
Well at least it's consistent and makes sense, thanks for answering my questions.
I've been curious about LD and OBEs too but after failing to induce them I just gave up for a while

>>19436670
>But it beats any dogma or religion.
How do you know this? Is this part of your dogma or did you *experience* that it beats all dogma?
>people should only believe what they experienced
What if I experienced a deceiving entity, should I believe the information I receive from it? Your view is just naive empiricism translated into the spiritual realm.

>>19436707
>I don't care that what I believe is wrong
So you know that truth exists, but don't care about it? This is demonic delusion.

>>19436712
>pic
There are numerous dmt reports of people saying whatever entities they met did in fact respond positively to jesus
You guys like to twist everything to fit your narrative

>>19436226
Demon hands typed this

>is this [thing I don't like]?
>DEMON
I just can't take this shit seriously I'm sorry

>>19436740
>respond positively to jesus
To their version of Jesus as a hippie man, not as the incarnate Logos Who will come to judge the world. Jesus is not an abstraction you create in the mind, but a real person.

>>19436756
Your causality is reversed.
>demon, therefore I don't like thing

>>19436764
>To their version of Jesus as a hippie man
No, not really. In some versions yes, in others quite the opposite

>>19436771
>>demon, therefore I don't like thing
And how do you know if it's a demon? The answer is you don't and my post was right, it just applies to anything you don't like or are told not to like.

>>19436712
>How do you know this?
it's not about knowing, it is my choice that whatever I believe, it's my choosing and experience that lead to it. I don't care about what some desert sandniggers wrote two milleniums ago. I don't care about random asian yogis and their cult followings. No one can take responsibility for how I act and believe than myself. If I can't talk with a fiery bush don't expect me to believe any of it. If the cherubims or whatever heaven being exists in the lore doesn't show up and talk to me, they don't exist.

>What if I experienced a deceiving entity, should I believe the information I receive from it?
you can believe whatever you like, it's no the fault of the entity or the responsability of an entity to cuddle you, do your bidding, or act as some information dump for you. Your argument is that some mean stuff can happen in altered states of consciousness and I can agree with this. Does that mean that I should take for granted whatever monk said about the christian demonic lore?
And you know what? some guy random guy kicking a helpless dog is more demonic than me messing around with hyper-real dreamscapes, and you should worry about him more than me.None of the things we are debating here ITT actually matter as far as our deeds and relationship with others is, so I don't care if you get upset at me

>empiricism translated into the spiritual realm
yes, I would not have it any other way

>>19436719
I believe that a truth obviously exists. It's not in my capability to know it but I can explore faces of it wriggling around trying to make some sense from it.
I don't think there was any human born that can know The Truth, whatever that means for out. What does the truth mean? Origin of life, our purpose here?

I mean if the christians are right, not following their dogma means I'll just have my soul obliterated into nothingness so who cares

>>19436779
>And how do you know if it's a demon?
If it's against Christ it's demonic

>>19436788
So 90% of the shit you people call demonic in these threads is in fact not demonic then. Unless you redefine what "against Christ" means on the fly to fit your agenda.

>>19436787
No, it means you will experience eternal torment in a resurrected body. It will be close to non-existence, but never non-existence and will still be torment.

>>19436853
Sounds pretty arbitrary and nonsensical so I think I can safely disregard the possibility anyway. The obliteration interpretation is espoused by a sizable proportion of the clergy and is much more sensible

>>19436783
>some guy random guy kicking a helpless dog is more demonic
Not really. The guy kicking a dog has more chance to repent since that is more obviously an evil action by any moral framework. Intellectual demonic delusion is always harder to get rid of and it is so potent precisely because it is designed by Satan to make repentance extremely hard. The spiritualist thinks he's actually a decent person but in reality he is hurting God so much with his disobedience and preparing for himself a very bad case at the day of judgement.

>>19436862
>Sounds pretty arbitrary and nonsensical
Will you really tell this to Christ when He asks why you didn't believe His direct words about the sinners going into eternal torment?
>espoused by a sizable proportion
This is not an argument. It's also been condemned many times. No saint teaches it and it's completely unbiblical.
>sensible
According to which standard? Not by Jesus' standard. We cannot really know what is sensible outside of the Logos who makes things sensible in the first place.

>>19436869
I don't believe in any of the lore you told me there (Satana, Judgement day) so there isn't a point in debating more

>>19436898
That's your problem then that you don't believe in Jesus and His teaching. My job is to warn you of the consequences.

>>19436917
you don't have any "job" regarding me or other anons here. Who gave you the credentials or responsibility for that? And even if no one gave it to you, why did you took it upon yourself to do it?

>>19436528
The "just go to a Catholic church, this is a private club" is definitely a possibility and I have a hunch that it will be difficult to get a foot in.
I am not even sure if there were any natives in the church except me. There were surely no tourists since it was a very small, relatively unknown church for a basically non-existent cult. I don't know how many Orthodox churches there are in the USA but Catholicism here has the lion's share, there is virtually no Protestant reality and no Orthodox either except these immigrant community churches. This one is very beautiful. It looks like something you'd find in Moscow. It completely changed my mind about icons, too; when I walked in I immediately understood why the art is like that, there's a point to it, it's not just tradition for tradition's sake.

>>19436884
>Will you really tell this
No because I don't believe any of this stuff will happen, so your threats have no effect on me
>According to which standard
Mine, and you're not a spokesperson for a man who died 2000 years ago and whom you've never met

Coffee time after liturgy is so comfy, bros

>>19437878
I went out at 7AM and came back home at 6PM. I had a sandwich and a glass of wine and I've been looking up some pdfs I'm too tired to read. I'm already looking forward to next Sunday. They're doing an all-night vigil on Saturday too but I don't know how that works.

>>19438063
It sounds like you had quite the day out today. That’s how I felt when I first went as well, it was not long afterwards that I wanted to go back and do it again. I’m really blessed to have such a good and thriving church near me. Did you get a chance to talk with the priest afterwards?

How do I reconcile this with Orthodoxy?

Recovering non-denominational here, I just witnessed Divine Liturgy today.
My question is how do introduce the idea of becoming Orthodox to my wife? She was raised non-denominational/"Bible Christian" as well.

>>19438129
No, I'm >>19435915 sadly I left before things officially ended and I felt weird sticking around. Language barrier made me rather uneasy. But I'll be there next Sunday or the following, I'll try to understand a shred of the Russian liturgy and I'll try to speak with someone. I assume the priests speak local or at least English. There were 3 or 4 members of the clergy doing service (not sure because much of what happened was behind the crowd and the "doors" of the tabernacle. One was a deacon I think and there was the city's bishop. Not sure whom I'll be able to talk to, nor if he'll be interested in a weird new convert from relatively far away. They're certainly not lacking membership, this was the most lively and healthy church I've ever seen.

>OSB is an NKJV with a halfassed OT that's still mostly Masoretic
>EOB is just the NT
>NETS is shit
>Lexham LXX is much better, but a new revision is already underway
>Brenton is great but OOP
Question to everyone here: There were rumblings on /his/ from guys who were considering fusing a public domain Byzantine Text revision of the ASV with a minor revision of the Brenton LXX, both of which came out earlier this year from the same editor/revisor; making some further revisions to harmonize the two base texts; and then sending the result to a MOD service. Thoughts?

>>19438499
Ah, that’s understandable then. I felt awkward sticking around after my first time as well and took off after the liturgy ended as well. And that was with a wholly English-speaking church. I hope you’ll be able to find someone who can speak with you next time.

>They're certainly not lacking membership, this was the most lively and healthy church I've ever seen.
This really surprised me as well with my first few visits. I was expecting a lot of older people, but it was almost the exact opposite, tons of young people, and probably a dozen babies and toddlers. It was cute to see some little boy next to me today singing “Receive the body of Christ, taste the fountain of immortality” with the choir during the Communion haha. It’s great to hear that this isn’t just peculiar to the church that I have been attending.

>>19438585
check out Berean literal bible

>>19438359
>My question is how do introduce the idea of becoming Orthodox to my wife? She was raised non-denominational/"Bible Christian" as well.
The best first step would probably be to take her to a Divine Liturgy. I’m sure she would have a lot of questions, but that would be best to answer after seeing it in person. Then you can get into stuff like: >>19433699, >>19433779

Bumping

Any good books I’m missing for the OP?

>>19439244
The EOB as an alternative NT Bible, I'd say. There's a full PDF of it on the EOB's wiki page.

>>19439403
Seems like a good suggestion after looking at some key verses and sections, thanks anon. I’ll have to pick up a copy myself before long. I love the OSB, but the NKJV for the NT is a bit suboptimal.

Direct link to save others the effort:
https://ia601509.us.archive.org/9/items/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible/New%20Testament%20%28The%20Eastern%20Greek%20Orthodox%20Bible%29.pdf

Any tips on memorizing prayers? Is it just something that gets easier over time?

>>19440088
Yeah it's all learned by rote.

>>19438063
>all-night vigil on Saturday
It's just the evening and morning service combined together in a more festive way. It's always done on Sundays, Saturday evening is technically already Sunday in Orthodoxy since our days start from the evening like in Genesis. You should really go if you have the chance, it's a good way to get prepared for liturgy and in Autumn-Winter time especially (depending on where you live) it's quite the feeling to enter the church while the sun is still visible and leave when it's dark. Also Christmas and Easter in the Russian tradition is celebrated at midnight as well ending in the morning.
Nowadays it's not literally all-night (about ~2.5 hours in the Russian tradition), but on Mt. Athos it really is done for the entire night, starting from the evening till the morning liturgy.

>>19438359
This >>19438714
You might also be interested in this video, explaining Orthodox worship as continuation of the Old Testament. I think this can be appealing to protestants as a way to show continuity with the ancient tradition. https://youtu.be/jkmh68urI6A

>>19440728
At what hour does the vigil end? I might not be able to take a train back. On this church's schedule it says "All-night vigil" with no timestamp.

>>19440853
Is it a ROCOR church? In usual practice in Russia it starts at about 5PM and ends at about 7PM, as far as I know for Russian churches in the US it is the same, e.g. here's a cathedral in Washington serving it - https://youtu.be/c9OOkAMifwI.. The beginning time might shift depending on the region and the length can vary slightly too because the full service is very lengthy and parishes omit or shorten certain parts based on the practice of the parish.

>>19440893
>Is it a ROCOR
Probably, since it answers to the Russian Patriarchate in Moscow.

>>19441012
So it's mostly likely the same as in that video. What's the starting time?

>>19434116
Just bought these, they better be good

>>19441028
>What's the starting time?
Doesn't say that, just "All-night vigil"

>>19441089
>>19441028
Beg you pardon, it's 17:00.

>>19441041
Nice. I'm looking for copies now, but the ones I see on AbeBooks either have no pictures or are very, very expensive.

Bump.

This isn't Orthodox specific but is anyone who found Christianity later in life afraid that religion may completely nullify one's previous existence? The nihilistic mindset goes really deep and sometimes it goes all the way to the very foundations of one's thinking and actions. I've built my whole life on shades of nihlism. Even the things I thought were not nihilistic at all were very much that. It's hard to do a 180 on so much. How do you know what is salvageable and what isn't? I really wish I were already in touch with a priest or at least someone in the faith (no offense, you know what I mean, someone who knows me) to talk about these things.

>>19442138
What do you mean with that?
You're supposed to "die to the world" if you are to read the metaphor well.
What are you afraid of?
If you're afraid of not being able to discern what's good, you'll feel it.

>>19441041
>>19441041
>Just bought these, they better be good

Let us know what you think on a future /ocg/. I'm curious.

>>19442154
It's a confusing mix of things. I'm afraid of being even less "functioning" than I used to be when I embraced the rules of this world, although I never managed to follow them. It's easy to say that I shouldn't care, but I've been a source of embarrassment and disappointment to people who loved me for a long time because I was so much at odds with what life asked of me. It's been more than one year since I had this change of heart toward Christianity, although the Orthodox diversion is more recent, and I have kept it secret so far. I know for a fact it wouldn't be well accepted, not even if I were Catholic (the "norm" here). My core principles were always more or less aligned with Christianity and my life's been a mess due to that. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to deal with even more of a mess because faith will solidify how uncompromising I have acted toward many things. Yes it's weak thinking and I should have faith, but I wouldn't want to use faith as an excuse to make life more difficult for everyone around me, especially since I have the tendency to do so especially when I'm in good faith.
I do not exactly have a history of good decision-making, yet every time I was convinced that if I acted in good faith I'd do the right thing. Can I trust my own judgment?
Then there are a whole slew of convinctions that I have which I do not feel at ease with any longer. Things that I have always put aside because I thought in a certain way. There's a whole lot that I think I should change, all at once. It's been more and more overwhelming as I got deeper into things. I guess it's just resistance because I'm afraid of the unknown. It's difficult to start over. Perhaps I'm just rushing it and demanding too much of a change too quickly. I'm not making a choice about faith, but it's at a stage where I need to foster it, not lean on it. I hope this sort of explains it.

>>19442210
Also it's only a matter of time before I'm found out, and I'm not prepared for that at all.

>>19442138
I doubt your entire life is built entirely on nihilism, or that there are aspects which aren’t salvageable. For me, Christianity has slowly started to bring great changes into my life—I feel like I can interact with people better, one day I just stopped having the urge to engage in pornography, something that I used to waste inordinate amounts of time on, I began to feel less alienated from the world and other people, and I started to get healthier all around, physically, spiritually and mentally. These are all massive changes in my life and outlook, and I thank God everyday for having led me this far already, because by myself I was never able to do anything. I welcome these aspects of my life being nullified so that I can be ‘born again’, so to speak. But I’m still me at the end of the day, the same person, I have the same (positive) hobbies, same friends, same day-to-day life in broad strokes. Take it slow, and these things will come naturally. And don’t be afraid either, God knows what is best for you

>>19442232
This. I had a very similar experience to you.

I was also afraid like the other anon when I realized Christ is the true God, I think it is because you understand that you can't just somehow live the same sinful way as before with this knowledge, and the sinful inclination gives rise to the despair and conflict. I think many people don't want to seriously and honestly think about it for this reason, and they satisfy themselves with silly and debunked modernist critiques of Christianity. Ultimately if you really seek truth, you understand that nothing is worth holding on to if it distances you from Christ. Our Lord did say that someone who loves father or mother more than Him is not worthy of Him (but ironically only when I became Christian could I really love my family, I still remember distinctly feeling their love for me for the first time).
Death to world doesn't mean your person is somehow annihilated like in Buddhism, but rather you reorient your talents and actions to their proper place, making yourself more real than before by following God's plan for you and by serving Him.

>>19442572
>but rather you reorient your talents and actions to their proper place
I'm the first anon, yeah this is my issue. I've pretty much dedicated my life to producing entertainment, commercial art, advertising. Sure it's not selling weapons to terrorists but if I felt dissatisfied with it when I was just concerned about nihilism, now I really can't stand it.

>>19429356
Hostility maybe, but at least it's mostly honest hostility. I'm not into this culture war shit, so I keep a few arms' distances away from it all. But one of my good friends became a prominent youtuber in the midst of it all. Catholic apologetics youtubers are very shifty. For example Fradd recently moderated a debate and at the cross-examination, he told the debaters basically "you can be as rude/hostile as you want". But in other debates involving orthodox, such rudeness was rather worth decrying and claiming victimhood over, in his eyes. There is a place for hostility, so when people get upset over how hostile people get when debating, it's really just a load of barnacles.

enjoy psalm 23 (24 kjv)

p2

bad website didn't post

>>19442138
>This isn't Orthodox specific but is anyone who found Christianity later in life afraid that religion may completely nullify one's previous existence?

Leave your past life in God's hands. There is nothing you can do to change it.

O My God
When I look into the future, I am frightened,
But why plunge into the future?
Only the present moment is precious to me,
As the future may never enter my soul at all.

It is no longer in my power
To change, correct or add to the past;
For neither sages nor prophets could do that.
And so, what the past has embraced I must entrust to God.

O present moment, you belong to me, whole and entire.
I desire to use you as best I can.
And although I am weak and small,
You grant me the grace of your omnipotence.

And so, trusting in Your mercy,
I walk through life like a little child,
Offering You each day this heart
Burning with love for Your greater glory.

So how do Orthodox Christians vew those in the armed forces? Specifically, what action would they proscribe one who is ordered to fire on enemy troops who are also Christians?
I read in another thread a while back that some hold those who kill in wartime to be damned, no matter the circumstances of the killing, but that doesn't seem to be a universal belief.

>>19443259
In the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom there is a statement to the armed forces:

"For civil authorities and our armed forces, grant that they may govern in peace, Lord, so that in their tranquility we, too, may live calm and serene lives, in all piety and virtue."

This thread was moved to >>>/his/12343138