/lit/ - Literature

>>19416045
It’s possible he could have repented.

God looks like he needs his T-levels checked in this pic lol

Why is murder bad if Abel's soul is immortal and [being righteous] went straight to Heaven? If Heaven is a better place than Earth, then shouldn't Abel thank Cain for what were likely 5 minutes of pain which in turn resulted in eternity with God?

>>19416091
Same is true for abortion.

Forgive him for being too based?

>
>The Marxist idea that something only is inasmuch as it is literally sacrificed on the altar of the actual, a radical Demiurgic INTER-, is subjected to a radical INTRA- wherein Cain not so much removes the sacrificial object from the field of the altar but folds the latter with the former still inside of it in on itself which dispels their mutual non-being - the Old Testament is Ontologically identical to nightmares of the "primordial" - and individuates the parties proper: per radical INTRA-, which radical INTER- perfidiously claims to contain but would rather tear itself in half when facing it, the field implodes and the objects explode, the former itself being "objectified", the face of Yaldabaoth is visible now that one is no longer inside his stomach.

>>19416091
They weren't send to heaven back in the day

>>19416091
If you were born before Jesus was you went straight to hell.
After he died on the cross, I think they all got a free out-of-jail card and went to Heaven in one fel swoop, although there’s many liturgical opinions on the matter with different branches of the Christianity trio of Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestants.

>>19416045
This is just a shitty translation.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+4&version=GNV

look at the footnote on the Geneva Bible

and anyway the later context makes it clear the curse persists

>>19416045
Yes but when

>>19416045
>And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
I imagine that his descendant would not model on him because if Cain was forgiven he would acknowledge his bad deed, but Lamech take pride in being savage.

>>19416091
Because death is unnatural. Would you want to wait for Christ many thousands of years separated from the body or live for a while in the natural state of man? Hades is not a good place even where the righteous were held and to this day anyone unbaptized or who died in despair, not believing in Christ will end up there to await the final judgement.

>>19416091
the writers of genesis had little or no conception of an afterlife

>>19416657
>This is just a shitty translation.
It's the King James, anon.

>>19416045
No.

>>19416045
Seth is fake and gay. His genealogical tree is a copy of Cain's. We are sons of Cain

>>19417867
And?

>>19416939
>Would you want to wait for Christ many thousands of years separated from the body or live for a while in the natural state of man
You would've gone to Hades anyways, plus, any year lived on Earth, that is to say, with a body, is another whole year of possible sin you can commit which you are actually likely to commit because of your fallen nature. If the whole thing is true, would you rather
>live one more year on Earth, risking commiting sins which separate you further from God
>die anyways, end up in Hades for what ostensibly is an eternity
Or
>die straight away and have no risk of offending God

If you truly love God, truly, you'd do anything not to offend him, even die. A godfearing man would rather die than sin, since after all dying is not a sin. If it was possible for a man to be devoid of sin, the prospect of being alive could perharps be defended. But since it is by default impossible not to sin, so much so that God needs to sacrifice his only begotten Son, would it not be better to just die as soon as possible and therefore not anger God? This is literally not suicidal btw, 'suicide' is wanting to remain here with the possibility of fucking up and offending your Creator, who deserves so much better.

>>19416461
>Demiurgic
Stopped reading here.

>>19416664
In life or in passing?

>>19416091
Because first of all we're not meant to leave this world behind and sin is a blasphemy against original creational perfection. Secondly, God judges by what is in the heart, and Cain was wicked through and through.

>>19416045
Cain was in the right, so it doesn't matter if God forgave him or not

>>19419848
>I'm a retard
>just letting you know

>>19416045
It's important that we try to understand God the creator of everything from God, the perceived being of Genesis authors. The myth of Cain and Abel is from a PIE religion where one must kill the other to create civilization.
This plays out in many religions even going as late as the founding of Rome (or some nordic manners). The dynamic probably plays out in some parts today.

So in some religions Cain is the good guy and him killing Abel actually produced females (in christian theology it's from Adam that female is split).

Another interesting part is that Adam/Eve were kicked out of the garden of eden (resembling the move from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, genesis is probably directly imported concepts from pre agriculture as their religions eeren't that complex), in this I think Cain was already made to be condemned so there was no need for forgiveness until Jesus came. The question would mean it's just following an already set narrative, so what does it mean then?
From a natural perspdctive it was an explanation for why ppl spread but ppl were already spread out by this time, so why is an explanation needed for that?

It was probably a spiritual development that allowed a stronger ethical development which was needed for legal purposes.

>>19416045
I don't believe Cain was ever forgiven, not because God would not forgive him, but because Cain never asked
Rather than repenting of the evil he's done and admitting his wrongs to God he says "am I brothers keeper" and only begs for mercy in the respect that the punishment would lead to his death so God does something to prevent his murder. Thus I don't think Cain ever asked for forgiveness

As for the city aspect of it, I viewed it as Cain simply could not produce anything on his own so he established a city and instituted a tax system (common effect of any organized society, and I believe establishment of weights and monetary systems is attributed to him in an apocryphal or midrash or something) thus he could live without producing anything, via taking from those who could farm

That's my view any way. Might be wrong but certainly blends with the theme of agriculture being negative that many point to when discussing Cain and Abel

If I am right it continues that Cain refused to go to God for forgiveness/help and continued going his own way which fits with a theme you could draw originally from his sacrifice to God. Rather than take what God gives (as likely was the case with the lamb Abel sacrificed) Cain chose something he himself produced (through farming). This is akin to the whole idea of salvation. You cannot be saved through works lest any man should boast. God may have refused Cains offering for the same reason and Rather than learn from the rejection Cain continues down the path he's walking

>>19421962
That's a hell of a modern western protestant interpretation.

I'll bounce an idea off you then, if good works are unimportant then how did eve bear any consequence as having eaten the fruit?

>>19416045
The Bible is not literature.

>>19421977
Because you have to commit sin to know sin.
To know sin is to require salvation
We are corrupt. Every single one comes forth speaking lies. Thus we cannot fix an inherent problem with us. It takes the Lord
Works are the fruit of Fath, not the other way around

>>19421990
I guess I don't disagree but clearly, if works are derived of faith, then some works are better than others even if not a path to faith in themselves. I understand you said taxes etc or some rousseauian concept implies a negative state or town etc that was established. In any sense a town was established by him where it was not by Abel. Is there an abelian town you consider more appropriate?

To drive at the Eve point more, are you suggesting they were of low faith and therefore they were tricked by the snake into doing bad works?

>>19416045
When Cain died, he reincarnated into Judas Iscariot. He is a doomed soul, a demonic entity

>>19422019
>In any sense a town was established by him where it was not by Abel. Is there an abelian town you consider more appropriate?
There is no abelian equivalent for the town founded by Cain directly mentioned. All principalities are permissed to exist by God but that does not mean he approves of them necessarily and clearly Cains civilization either was or became a wicked one, if not the Bible would not mention the world being full of violence

As to eve and lack of faith, perhaps her lack of faith is evidenced by her failure. The Bible mentions trials of faith will occur (but not beyond what can be born) and man's weakness leads to glory to God.
As to this I've found (and this is personal experience, you may have found a different case) that it is when I am brought to my lowest that my need for God is increased and my faith that he will deliver me is increased so I seek him for help.

To put in plainly, you can fail on your own easily but to be redeemed and pulled our of trouble takes God.

>>19422061

>>19422067
But Noah was to establish a cleaner world and either way Jesus became the body of christ so we can imagine a less cainian city. Ig the question is why didn't it develop sooner and what does it more properly look like. Very clearly christianity surpassed Rome's fall.

I agree w that sentiment. To be honest I would say nobody actually falls on their own, they just stay stuck but even allowing falling it would seem not too hard to catch up to where you were and that's because you spiritually/ethicall/mentally were already developed to a degree. It certainly offers more hope than liberalism's "brainwash them while they're young".

I wouldn't mind saying the snake was more close and overpowered Eve but that would make God look weak and seem odd to punish Eve for anyways.

>>19422098
Church became body of christ or in whichever order.

>>19422098
>But Noah was to establish a cleaner world
This is something that's always intrigued me and leads down the nephalim rabbit hole and questioning if we are able to achieve that level of wickedness that quickly on our own or if it takes external forces to nudge us along, just like eve with the snake.

Abel is a sort of metaphor Christ I suppose. Innocent slain due to jealousy (be it a single brothers jealousy, or many peoples jealousy).

I do wish there was more discussed in Genesis in regards to what occurred in pre history but this information is not required to comprehend the main message of a divine redeemer

>>19422128
>but this information is not required to comprehend the main message of a divine redeemer
Certainly and in a sense all religion is just a development of it which leads to better ethical developments.

I don't personally view us as having been evil in situations etc but the authors viewed us as such. I definitely think we stay stuck on a certain order of development until someone, or culture, has an insight that is needed, and borrowed, to advance us to the next stage. For that, considering a single framework to understand it all (in God or pure bring), it would be important to understand the structure of the beginning in its less contingent form. If there's a development of a proper relationship narrative (I think emanationism > emergentism > creatio ex nihilo) then we can figure it out eventually ourselves but we're a bit aways from both positions.

>>19416045
>Embodiment of evil
I have never heard this in Church. He's just the human who gave God a reminder that his creations were capable of darkness. Or something. Frankly he's not very significant these days.

>>19422197
Crab bucket

>>19422225
Yeah I could go for some King Crab right now. Shit's great. On the topic of crabs does anyone have any natural history book recommendations on crabs or books centered around crabs or crab fishing?

>>19422247
If you have so much energy and position to pull ppl back into the bucket why not just climb out? Are you scared?

>>19422247
bump, I am also interested in this topic. I can recommend checking out the Log From the Sea of Cortez by Steinbeck and Ricketts.

>>19422257
I am more the crab who avoids the bucket but doesn't make the effort to alert other crabs of the trap. With them they are just naturally self centered animals due to their solitary nature and brutal competition. It could also be fear in how a drowning human will panic and drag those down trying to save them.

>>19422268
Thanks, I saw a natural history book at B&N called rats (pic related) and was considering it. Anyone know if it's good?

>>19422269
You may hope that and the analogy may be an epistemological construction but there's some activeness in pulling crabs down and I was commenting on that. Your move Watson

>>19416091
because the Murderer damns himself, Sin is evil not because it inflicts harm upon another (that is the sub reason) but because it seperates the sinner further from the God, by transforming him into being that would do things that are not what God would do and thus lose likeness towards God and therefore Good(loss of Good is evil.)

>>19416045
>Timshel
Thou mayest

>>19422340
Alright, we get it, you read East of Eden, or heard someone else talking about it. That doesn't answer any of the questions posed in this OP though.

>>19416045
Obviously he was never forgiven, since we still prefer meat over crops

>>19417646
People forget this. Why do people read Greek Platonic thought and its influence on the New Testament into the Semitic Old Testament? Two completely separate philosophical traditions. It's why I find Paul interesting, since he was in between the two and was a Jew that evangelized to the Greeks.

>>19417646
>>19422493
You really think Bronze Age Hebrews couldn't ask
>what happens after I die
You all are idiots

>>19422350
East of Eden? What's that, I've never heard of it. I study ancient Hebrew and Rabbinic tradition as a side hobby

>>19416045
God isn't realy, so no.

>>19422893
>God isn't realy
Really?

>>19416537
Seriously? Source please

>>19416045
he forgave cain by giving him superpowers and turning him into the first lord of the vampires. thought this was common knowledge.

>>19416045
He isn't real so who cares :^)))

>>19416939
>anyone unbaptized or who died in despair, not believing in Christ will end up there to await the final judgement.
Why should I believe this? Because a book you read said so?

Christianity is so fucking stupid. Especially American protestant christians, obsessing over literal made up stories just like soifaggot comic book nerds.

>>19422321
>loss of Good is evil
Understanding this is key to "solving" the "problem" of evil. Evil is not a separate thing, or an opposite to good. Evil is an absence of good, much like cold is an absence of heat and not an independent phenomena unto itself