/lit/ - Literature

I grew up on military posts and did ROTC for a while.
Does that count OP?
):

There is no validity to any argument that says you have to experience something to know about it/have an opinion on it/write about it.

Sod off and have a nice day. /k/ is always available for your kind.

>>1941679
>mfw only someone who's been turned into a jarhead and brainwashed by the government can write from the point of view of a jarhead
>mfw a writer who describes the military without delving into the psyche of the soldiers is able to do so accurately, but the soldiers who've been taught that dissent is treason less than 250 years after Thomas Jefferson said "dissent is the highest form of patriotism" don't realize this

>>1941688
>turn off cookies
>loose my anti-troll trip

whatever

DOD civilians and the like have a little more understanding than the average "lol what is the difference between enlisted and officer" dope, but yeah, if you haven't served I'd advise you not to write about something too specifically military, and especially not something from the POV of a soldier

No one cares OP. I could write about how Sergeant Edward sparkled in the sunlight, or how I went through basic combat magic training at Fort Hogwarts, if it sells it's all good. I would imagine the cheesedick audience is larger than the military audience considering how many cheesedicks I've met.

>>1941691
>there is no validity

says you, with no support. but I don't even give a shit, I'm not going to argue with you faggots. this thread is to steer aspiring writers from looking like fools

>>1941692
>brainwashed

yeah, because I totally don't have opinions contrary to military doctrine and I believe everything they tell me. soldiering is often a life or death matter, there is no time to suddenly back out on your duties because you read a book about buddhism and suddenly decided that violence doesn't jive with your modern hipster sensibilities. once you sign that dotted line, you are bound by legal contract and agree to do whatever is necessary to accomplish the mission, because someone's life may depend on it. if you're not secure in your own beliefs, don't fucking sign up.

>>1941696
that's cool if you have no artistic integrity. some people do.

DON'T YOU DARE WRITE FANTASY UNLESS YOU HAVE LIVED IN A WORLD WITH TROLLS, GOBLINS, AND ELVES.

EITHER LIVE IN SUCH A WORLD FOR PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE OR FIND SOME OTHER SHIT THAT INTERESTS YOU, BECAUSE YOU JUST CANNOT PULL IT OFF. EVEN WRITERS WHO /HAVE/ LIVED IN FANTASIA WORLDS OFTEN COME OFF AS TRY HARD (I'M KNIFE-HANDING AT YOU, GRRM), SO IT'S REALLY A DOOMED EFFORT FOR YOU, SOMEONE WHO HASN'T HAND TO HAND FOUGHT A TROLL WARDEN, TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND HOW ELVES AND GREMLINS THINK.

EVERY TIME I HAPPEN UPON THIS KIND OF NONSENSE, I THINK "GET A LOAD OF THIS FUCKING GUY, WHAT A KEEDLYWIDLE" (KEEDLYWIDLE = WEEABOO FOR MANY FANTASY WORLDS, WHO HAS NEVER FOUGHT ANY DRAGONS OR SLAIN ANY ORCS AND JUST WANTS TO BE TACTICOOL) AND IT'S RIDICULOUS TO READ ABOUT THE YES MY LORD!!!!! SUPER LOUD PEASANT, AND OTHER GARBAGE THAT WAS PORTRAYED BY THE MEDIA IN THE 80S.

MARK TWAIN SAID "WRITE WHAT YOU KNOW" WHILE I THINK A BETTER STATEMENT IS "WRITE WHAT YOU CAN KNOW" IE WRITE ABOUT SOMETHING YOU CAN REASONABLY UNDERSTAND THROUGH VIGOROUS RESEARCH OR WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, SLAYING DRAGONS AND ORCS IN THE FIFTH WORLD IS TOO DISTINCT A CULTURE FOR CIVILIANS TO UNDERSTAND. IT'S EASY TO TELL WHEN BLACKSMITHS HAVE JUST GRADUATED FROM THEIR APPRENTICESHIP BECAUSE OF HOW NEWFAG THEY STILL ACT, AND THEY'RE BLACKSMITHS. YOU ARE NOT A BLACKSMITH, YOU HAVE LESS UNDERSTANDING OF THE THOUGHT OF PEASANTS IN THESE LANDS THAN AN APPRENTICE OF A BLACKSMITH

>>1941692
>jarhead

this term applies specifically to US marines, and I don't think it means what you think it means. prime example of what I'm talking about.

I'm not a marine, I'm a soldier. big difference.

>>1941703
>no support

Try to use your logic in a variety of other situations/subjects and see why it doesn't work. You're engaging in what's called "special pleading," where you want me to make an exception for one specific subject without giving adequate reason why it should be considered different and treated differently.

Keep trying, /k/omrade.

>>1941711
It means they have empty heads that are filled with whatever they're told.

Like, a jar.

Dumbass.

>>1941679
by this logic, no more science fiction, no more historical fiction, no more fantasy, no more novels featuring a protagonist whose gender is different from the author's, no more writing about different races, no more fiction in general

if you want to only read about 100% accurate experiences i suggest you pick up some memoirs or nonfiction

the primary word here is fiction, it isn't real, stop getting upset

>>1941707
I fucking love you caps guy.

>>1941707
I've already addressed this by pointing out that the military is a special case, with a deeply ingrained culture. in fantasy, you can make up whatever the fuck you want and as long as it's cohesive/entertaining, that's perfectly fine + your prerogative. not so with the military, because there are millions of military personnel ready to call you on your bullshit when they read your stories. there aren't too many goblins in the world who will read your book and say "that's totally not how it goes down in goblin culture"

>>1941729
>millions of military personnel
>read

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh wow.

>>1941729
Actually, goblins do real.

Prove me wr­ong.

>>1941728
>>1941712

see

>>1941729

But I like Tom Clancy

>>1941732
I am a goblin and I'm not real

check and mate

>>1941729
Not that guy you are talking with, but!
What about sci-fi/futuristic military structures? Heinlein was writing about future space soldiers in space, (going to branch out here) Warhammer 40k is about space marines in space fighting cosmic entities, and Mass Effect is about a future marine fucking all types of aliens. I think there is a certain point where you can say, "Alright, yeah, I am using a military character/development/whatever here but I feel that the rest of the book of fantastical enough that it is not the most important feature that it needs to be touched upon in every detail."
For realism/modern military, yeah I can agree with you to a certain point. I feel that as long as the writer doesn't get too ahead of themselves about writing a character who is specifically an embodiment of the military they can do just fine. If they are writing some jingoistic asswipe then the writer themselves is an asswipe.

>>1941734
Your post is still just special pleading. "THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN CALL YOU OUT ON YOUR BULLSHIT."

That exists for any subject. It's just most of them aren't butthurt military dickheads that think their lifestyle is too unique/important for anyone to write about.

Seriously, re-enlist and get yourself killed. You're as dumb as the rest of your ilk.

>mfw I'm a grocery clerk and I read a story about grocery clerks by someone who has never bagged

Same thing. It's not like the military is some exclusive club that only those who have served know about it.

EVERYTHING HAS CULTURE IMBEDDED INTO IT. THE MILITARY IS SO DIVERSE THAT YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY COHESIVELY WRITE TO THE DEGREE YOU'RE SAYING WITHOUT GETTING ANYONE'S PANTIES IN A TWIST SINCE YOU WERE ONLY SUBJECTED TO A TINY FRACTION OF IT.

I CAN'T VALIDATE ANY OF MY WRITINGS ABOUT THE ENTIRE ACCOUNTING PROFESSION BECAUSE I ONLY WORKED IN ONE FIRM EVEN IF THE ACCOUNTING PROFESSION DOES HAVE ITS OWN DISTINCT CULTURE. EVERYTHING DIFFERS

AND WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU JOIN THE MILITARY? USUALLY THAT'S FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO OTHER CHOICES IN LIFE :(

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT FUCKING FAIL

>>1941742
the key is not to get too specific. if you're going to write about space marines, stay away from jargon and the technical aspects of fighting, tactics, etc.

of course that pretty much removes the point of writing about space marines in the first place, but maybe that's why I've never read a good book about space marines.

>>1941739
don't know much about tom clancy but I will say that he probably comes to as close as you can get, I only cringed a few dozen times when I read his books

robert heinlein was a horrible cheesedick, and he was an officer anyway. they do paperwork, and are basically the spokesmen of their units who leave all the fighting to their grunts and just take the blame when shit goes wrong. I doubt heinlein ever saw combat.

not shitting on officers btw, these days it's a much better career path than enlisted. I admit I'm jelly of commissioned officers, and may attempt to become one in a few years

>>1941747
>AND WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU JOIN THE MILITARY? USUALLY THAT'S FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO OTHER CHOICES IN LIFE :(

>YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT FUCKING FAIL

BAHHHHHH People have different beliefs and ideals than me so they are idiots.. BaHHHH.. They didn't have the opportunities in life had so they are failures.. BAHHHH

Grow up. Seriously, that bullshit attitude is fucking childish.

>>1941744
a person who has never been a social worker could probably write a convincing story about a social worker, but a person who has never been a quantum physicist is not going to write a convincing novel about quantum physicists. my point is that the military is a lot more complicated than you think, and presents an enormous challenge to the uninitiated.

and before you go all greentext crazy with shit like
>comparing soldiers to quantum physicists

yes, I know you liberal college kids think we're all the dumb jocks that used to beat you up in high school, but nope. the army in particular has scientists, lawyers, etc. with their own branches/corps within the army, and those soldiers are smarter than you will ever be.

fun fact: more US military personnel have college degrees per capita than US civilians

>go

>>1941750
Maybe you're looking for tactical stories when everyone else in the world just wants to read stories of the dreamy, romanticized tales of soldiers of deep minds and loving hearts in the battlefield amongst the dying and terror. Which was what pretty much everyone thought what being a soldier was all about until WW2 and/or Vietnam.
But as this person says:
>>1941744
There will always be someone to call you out. It's really a matter of writing something that you can get away with selling to the public en masse, when you get down to the heart of it.

>>1941770
>implying the scientists and intelligent folk in the military count for all of you.

You clearly aren't one of the intelligent people you're referring to. Hasn't been a single rational, sound argument in anything you've said thus far.

Saging for dumbshit military nonsense.

>>1941782
>call somebody illogical because you disagree with what they say
>sage and insult their intelligence

typical_lit_thread.jpg

also not all of the posts disagreeing with my detractors are me, so how do you know which illogical arguments are mine?

>>1941782
even if OP isn't an army scientist, you ignored
>fun fact: more US military personnel have college degrees per capita than US civilians

I find this fact very fun, indeed

Gonna go ahead and give this thread a supportive bamp for being nice and sensible. Thank you for your service OP.

>>1941795
Actually, I called you illogical because numerous people have pointed out your repeated use of a logical fallacy which you've refused to acknowledge. You've also generalized a population while trying to defend the specificity of that population, which makes no logical sense. The culture you've been referring to clearly speaks to the combative, fraternal aspect of the military, not the "scientist" figures you're using to defend your own intelligence and the intelligence of most of the military. Science operates the same way in and out of the military, so you clearly aren't referring to these folks when you're griping about people writing about it. You're referring to the "dumb jock" fucks.

Please just sod off back to /k/.

OP, Army Signal Corp, 173rd Airborne here. Don't you hate watching movies where they portray some kind of high ranking military official wearing olive drab digis and they say he's Navy or some shit? Kinda related....

> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/
> political arguments on /lit/

No one is going to have their opinion swayed.

No one is going to convince anything of anything.

This is an exercise in futility.

Two guys beating their heads against opposite sides of a brick wall != a conversation.

>>1941800
What am I even supposed to say to that? You get your college paid for if you enlist in the military. In fact, that's a major reason some people join. And they have no love for the military or want any affiliation with it afterwards. You can't divide the populations of "college educated military people" versus "college educated civilians" because it suits your needs in an argument. The people that joined the military and went to college quite possibly only joined the military TO GO TO college.

It speaks more to college educated folk than it does to civilians or the military. Christ fuck you people are retarded.

>>1941740
Just because ONE goblin isn't real doesn't mean ALL goblins aren't real.

Those kids from Captain Planet aren't real, but kids exist.

Remarche wrote great soldier stuff ever written and he didn't serve.
>oh wait, he did

Also, Tolstoy never fought a battle and he wrote the best perspective of war and a battlefield ever written.
>fuck, he served too

I'm pretty glad I researched it and saved you guys the trouble of proving me wrong.

Join the military! Be 3x as likely to wind up homeless!

>>1941806
tell me what I have refused to acknowledge and I'll acknowledge it

and even scientists are "fraternal and combative". all soldiers learn basic rifle marksmanship, combatives, etc. and share the same espirit de corps with regular infantry joes. while of course some types of units are more relaxed than others, army scientists are still very much about patriotism, military bearing, etc.

you're just assuming that military scientists have their own little intellectual cliques above us lowly combat arms plebes, but that's not the case. you've never met an army doctor, lawyer, or intel, and are just talking out of your ass, if you weren't you wouldn't be sounding so clueless right now

THIS IS ALL A PLOY TO START A "DO YOU LIKE THE ARMY?" THREAD ON /LIT/
I FOR ONE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS BULLSHIT

Lee Child portrays the military pretty realistically tbh, what little there is of it in his novels anyway.

>>1941806

Gonna side with OP on this one. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, and if you write a story set in 18th century France without having lived there or gotten a Master's degree in the time period, there will be people ready to say YOU CAN'T HAVE A DUCHESS WEARING A SHOE WITH TWO INCH HEEL IN A BLUE STRIPED FABRIC IN 1778 FRANCE BECAUSE BLUE STRIPED FABRIC DIDN'T BECOME POPULAR IN FRANCE UNTIL 1780

>>1941812
>2011
>being in the signal corps

nah just kidding. but yes I know that feel

>>1941840
Considering you do not interact with them on a daily basis, which I know for a fact, you are the one talking out of your ass. You also disregard the possibility that doctors, scientists, etc. could be doing their job for reasons completely unrelated to patriotism.

You've basically just assumed all people in the military, or even most, are patriotic, which I know first-hand is not remotely true.

I shouldn't have to point out what you've failed to acknowledge. It's been posted numerous times. You have failed to prove that the military is any more specialized and inaccessible to observation than any other subject that authors write about. It's very public, very easily researched, and very accessible.

You were right to say it isn't like quantum physics. Hell, the shit isn't on par with a lot of sciences. But, again, do you see these people freaking out when someone writes fiction on these subjects? Show me one quantum physicist that has objected to a science fiction novel like you are now.

>>1941840
So I'm about done with my BA and was thinking about Enlisting (Officer doesn't appeal to me), I'm torn between the USA and the USN. USN has more Crypto/Spook work but the Army is the Army. I know very little about equivalent Army MOS's for the Navy Crypto Rates (Navy Brat)

There is a lot of samefagging going on in here on OP's part.

0/10.

>>1941849
>implying you can stop the troll ball on /lit/ once it gets rolling

son, I've seen things...

>>1941862
Seriously. Like the military isn't mostly comprised of poor people that were suckered into dying with the promise of a free education or a good pay.

>>1941868
OP here, I freely admit that I have samefagged several times, but not once played devil's advocate

thrilling discovery, watson!

also

>taking the time to download a program that outs samefags

>>1941871
You know, in America, the military is just about the only prosperous industry there is.

In the wake of 9/11, my sister joined the military while I went to college. I'm currently unemployed and have to ask my parents for money, whereas my sister makes over 60k a year.

It's sad, but that's what America has become.

>>mfw when no one has yet, in this entire thread, mentioned The Red Badge of Courage, by Stephen Crane.

"Civil War veterans were convinced that Crane must have been a participant. Historian and novelist Shelby Foote has even identified one former Union officer who proudly claimed that “I was with Crane at Antietam.” Future veterans of other wars, instructed by Crane, saw their own experiences vividly reflected in Crane’s illumination."

http://booksandauthorsblog.com/archives/1702

>>1941747
for some reason, i thought capsguy was in the military

>>1941891
Maybe you shouldn't have majored in Art History, faggot.

>>1941891
That's probably because she went Blackwater.

>>1941912
Try again, faggot.

>>1941863
>thinking about enlisting
>officer doesn't appeal to me

so you'd rather have shit pay, get yelled at, and eventually rise to coveted position of sergeant (aka babysitter)? I'll tell you the same thing I tell everybody who says this: you are retarded. if you can go officer, do it. the enlisted side of the military will do nothing better for you.

I don't know/give much of a shit about the navy, but they are known to have some of the better intelligence, linguistics, etc. jobs. you sound like you want to apply critical thinking skills to your job. again, go officer. if you actually want to be creative and use your brains instead of just doing what somebody tells you to do, specifically how they tell you to do it, you will HAVE to go officer.

as for the army, we are the largest and most diverse fighting force in the world. there's pretty much something for everybody, but you will learn more from talking to a recruiter in 30 minutes than you would researching the internet for a month. while they may try to sway you toward a certain job to fill their quota, tell you don't fucking want that job and make your goals/conditions of joining clear.

so yeah, just go to a recruiter and ask about intel jobs or just describe what you're interested in and see what they come up with. good luck getting in though, because all the forces are sizing down and the army plans to get rid of 50k soldiers by fiscal 2013

>>1941926
Why would I keep guessing? You're obviously a piece of freeloading scum that got a useless major.

At least soldiers kill people.

>>1941929
>At least soldiers kill people.

So, they're a lot worse off. That's a comfort.

>>1941928
>implying recruiters are a good source of information

I don't know if I just had a negative experience, but every recruiter I've ever encountered is A.) A lying sack of shit and B.) The most uninformed lying sack of shit I've met in the military.

Maybe that's just me. But, I've never gotten useful information from those people about anything, nevermind career opportunities in fields they probably don't even understand.

>>1941679
>>1941928

Samefagging here,but I think my post nicely tidies up any lingering fragments of doubt people might have had about the veracity of OP's post.

OP is wrong, dead wrong, and no amount of hurr-durr and military knowledge will deflect it.

Of course the military is a special culture. It's a culture of obedience and blind patriotism. You have to be apart of the Borg to know the Borg.

>>1941936
Not for society. If the government gives a soldier some cash, he/she delivers and kills someone. If the government gives you money, you shitpost on /lit/.

>>1941679
>>1941894

Well this tidies it up nicely, doesn't it. OP is dead wrong, as proven by historical fact.

now can this be /thread?

>>1941926
>being a young female and not having college + specific military skills
>joining blackwater

my ribs are cracking with insincere laughter

most motherfuckers who retire with a chest full of medals can't even join blackwater

>>1941936
>implying killing people isn't fun

oh you

>>1941947
>other military personnel disagree with me
>I'm automatically dead wrong

a lot of soldiers like starship troopers too, but that doesn't make starship troopers accurate just because they see it through rose colored sunglasses

come back when you have links to an in-depth review of red badge of courage by a soldier who is proven to not be a shitbag, ie ranger or special forces

>>1941954
It's true. You have to murder a certain number of innocent brown people first because they don't worship Jeebus.

>>1941946
Hold on, hold on.

Does /lit/ actually think killing someone is better than shitposting? Not that I believe I'm shitposting, but even if I was, I'd consider it infinitely better than killing a human being.

In all seriousness. What the fuck?

>>1941972
I imagine the soldiers who are assholes and just kill people for the wrong reasons are still better than people who spend their time arguing on /lit/, because at least the soldiers are good at something and have a purpose, no matter how misguided that purpose may be

people who argue on /lit/ are just blowhards who like to hear themselves talk, and don't really contribute anything even to this website.

>>1941984
But isn't it better to be neutral than to have a negative total effect on the world?

(not the same person, btw)

>>1941972
That's not my point.

I'm saying that soldiers provide some sort of return for the money that they are paid, whereas our Creative Writing major here provides nothing...except a stream of shitposts.

Also, under certain circumstances, I personally believe that it would be better to kill a human being than to shitpost on /lit/.

>>1941988
>>1941984

I fully disagree. Even the most useless poster on 4chan (Quinten) is infinitely better than glorified murderers.

It doesn't matter that they get paid for it, and then do it. They're pawns, and they kill human beings.

>>1941966
Go fuck yourself for implying that the men who fought in the largest, bloodiest war America has eer seen were not in fact some of the finest soldiers this country has ever seen. Good god, I've never been in the military, but even I seem to have more respect for its history than you do.

Also, I have linked to an effective review and mention of a scholarly book in which same materials are presented.

Also, all that is required for your argument to fail is to prove that some military personnel see truth in the writing of authors who have never been soldiers. That makes your point valid only for yourself and not all soldiers, which essentially reduces it to a useless observation about ones' own lack of imagination.

Once again, get fucked and don't assume your supposed expertise gives you insight into some realm no other human could ever hope to imagine.

Who gives a shit? It's fiction. There's no place called Eatanswill in England and anarchists aren't all secretly in a conspiracy with God, but nobody would complain about that.

I think a better thread topic would be: Why are soldiers always such little princesses about how special and unique life in the military is?

>>1941970
>innocent brown people

pic related

if you'd ever been to the middle east, you'd know that mudslime are some of the most racist, hateful, dogmatic, stupid pieces of shit on this planet. they were killing, raping, and enslaving each other in the name of allah before america ever existed.

this image of the centrist muslim who just wants to provide for his family and peacefully protests that the american kafir leave his country doesn't exist in real life, holmes. they all hate you because you are white and have more money than them, it doesn't matter if you give them all the money in the world, save their lives, or kiss their motherfucking dirty feet. they will hate you because it has been tempered in their venomous culture for generations, largely because of some book inspired by an illiterate pedophile who claimed to talk to god, in a cave.

they are just pretty much animals, and I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as the "centrist" as the west knows it, there really isn't. it's a bad place full of bad people and I don't feel bad about their deaths, in fact, since the US invaded and poured a bunch of money into their sorry excuse for an economy, their standard of living has significantly improved. the non-terrorist ones staff and clean the shops that service american soldiers, plus we give them a shitton of foreign aid and fund their corrupt attempts at government

the more you know!

>>1942016
I talk to an Egyptian on a daily basis.
He is a fine fellow.

>>1942000
Still, a lot of the posters on /lit/ (myself probably included) are useless shitbags that should be killed for their utter shittiness.

Plus, the soldiers really are doing us a favor. Sure, they're killing civilians sometimes, but it's not like any one of those civilians had the intelligence or resources to improve the world, or even the United States, by some remotely recognizable margin. Plus, with those useless civilians dead, I get cheaper oil and there's less humans to worry about.

Granted, my entire argument is insanely selfish, warped, and outright evil logic.

Keep in mind, my short argument here is completely based off of your presumed stereotype that all troops are government-sponsored goons, which I personally believe they're not.

>>1942000
Silly moralist. Some people have to be killed and some people have to do the killing. So life and history is. Stop pretending human life is so valuable and sacred. If you really believe that you would sell you possessions and donate the money to feed starving people, but you don't. You live in a nice house, with a computer and internet and have nice things.. and why shouldn't you? You don't care about those people enough to sell or deprive yourself, and neither do I.If you were in a bar and their was a soldier, what would you do? Would you spew your stupid moralistic nonsense? No, you would sit their and frown at him and think, I'm so much better than him because I care about human life.. oh so much you care right? For all your silly moralist nonsense all you have gotten was a pathetic sense of superiority and a contempt for others who don't share it.

>>1942020
>implying soldiers deploy to egypt

yes, yes, feel the butthurt flow through you

thanks op, this pasta will serve me well

Wow, this got off topic fast.

>>1941966
I might agree with you if someone who didn't serve was trying to write a book called "The Psychology of a Solider" or something, but if they are upfront with the fact that they are writing fiction, what's the problem? Even inaccurate fiction can represent true emotions e.g. Red Badge of Courage.

And if you're talking strictly about the inaccuracy of technical details, some of the most ignorant people I've ever met as far as weapons were concerned were people who had served in the military. On the other hand, I've known some career soldiers whose depth of experience and knowledge was astounding. It's a mixed bag, one that can't be generalized but doesn't seem completely unknowable.

OH WOW LOL LOOK AT ME I HAVE MY OWN SEEKRIT KLUB NO 1 SHULD TOLK ABOUT MY SEEKRIT KLUB BEKUZ ITS' TOODEEP4U LOLOLOLLLLLLLL

GROW THE FUCK UP BITCH NIGGA
EVERYONE CAN FUCKING WRITE WHAT THEY WANT
YOU WANT A GOOD FUCKING MILITARY NOVEL THAT REACHES YOUR STANDARDS? FUCKING WRITE IT, YOU PIECE OF BRAINWASHED MEAT

I would like to take this time to encapsulate the current problem of America. Two distinct sides take such pleasure in the aggravation and ostracism of the other side that both become equally unpalatable solutions for those that seek a community in which to express their love for their country's ideals.

>>1942095
True enough, but 4chan is a horrible medium for this message.

Alternately: take the time to associate with some military types, and run your shit by them to see if anything ridiculous sticks out.

It's really just the tiny factual inaccuracies that pile up on top of one another to the point of stupidity. People writing about prison do the same thing.

>>1942016
Are you in the military? Well absorb that propaganda shit some more.

Have you ever directly read what Al Qaeda and terrorists demand? They almost exclusively call for America to leave Saudi Arabia(they see it as an occupation) and the Middle East since America has a long history of intervening and fucking shit up.

The same opinion goes for rest of mid-east including Egypt, that America supports dictators and occupies the region and that a caliphate should replace it.

Case point, the Iranian Coup of 53, Iran doesn't hate America because they are Americans. They directly tell you because America has been rustling their shit for five decades.

Only the most retarded of grunts believe the mid-east is prone to attack America for no fucking reason.

>>1942021
So civilians that you don't deem are "improving the world" are free to kill?

Why can't I drive to the south and murder every man woman and child since that's largely what I see there?

Murderous shitbags are still deluded murderous shitbags.

But OP, if they wrote about what actually goes on in war, it would just be sitting at the base all day wasting tax payer money.

But OP, if they wrote about what actually goes on in the military, it would just be sitting at the base all day wasting tax payer money.

>>1941707
Laughed

>>1942027
>Some people have to be killed and some people have to do the killing

This is the dumbest statement I've ever read on this board. No one has to be killed. Legal murder is still murder, and no amount of talking yourself out of that will change the truth.

>>1942145
As I said, keep in mind that my entire argument was catered towards your faulty stereotype.

In reality, our troops are fighting an offensive war in a defensive manner. All a troop basically has to do is just wait there and watch if any shit goes down.

The problem is, most of the time there's an IED waiting on the side of the road after a few days of patrolling. Troops are constantly and almost exclusively killed this way.

These IEDs, for the most part, are planted by civilians. Eventually, after a month or so, the troops are scared shitless and are as mad as fuck because Muhammad just killed one of their best buddies. Of course, their natural reaction, after some more provoking, is to raid and kill anyone under the suspicion of planting bombs on the side of the road.

Personally, I'd do the same thing. As a matter of fact, I'd take it a step further, and eat a few of the corpses and then vomit them out after a minute or so, because I don't want filthy, brown human flesh in my bloodstream.

Of course, it's not like the majority of these troops are educated people hoping to serve their country. Most of them really just want some decent pay and benefits because their families haven't been able to provide them and their ancestors with such for several generations. Sure, I guess they're goons, but certainly not brainwashed fuckheads looking to get their fix by killing some random sheep herder. Most of these civilian deaths are justified in some way.

The problem is that this war should have never been started in the first place. If you want to hate someone, hate the politicians and corporate figures at the top, not the guy who was hoping that he would be able to server his country or earn a living.

Also, stop being such an overly-liberal shitcunt. It makes you look like an asshole.

>>1942185
So you blame the Iraqi people because some of them want to kick the local invaders out?

And what about the Iraqi who gets his family bombed by an American? Are they suddenly at no fault?

That's cool how you can portray the troops as being that. In the US, you can get all sorts of loans without having to be a sanctioned mercenary.

This by and large is a mess of a post. Half deluded non-sense, the other half illogical points.

>>1942171
it's refreshing to see pro.life arguments on this site

>>1942185
This is fucking stupid. You're essentially say that it's okay for a soldier to kill someone because he's poor and wants a high paying job with good benefits without having to work at it. What they don't tell him is that killing a man will destroy his psyche for the worse, always. At best, he'll be wracked with guilt. At worst, he'll become a monster, capable of callous and indiscriminate murder. And don't tell me he has no options. Go AWOL. Don't sign up for the military to begin with. Fighting for your country is always a stupid idea, especially in America because you're not fighting to protect anything but the bottom line for privatized corporations.

>implying this thread hasn't given most of us ideas to write about someone deployed to a war in the middle of fucking nowhere who can't handle the pompous macho military bullshit secret-club posturing and goes AWOL because he still has the mind of a normal person and was not properly brainwashed

>>1942218
>Granted, my entire argument is insanely selfish, warped, and outright evil logic.

He labeled his retarded diatribe with this.

It's okay. Remember you are on 4chan. Shit like this is the norm.

>>1942202
Jesus Christ, did you even fucking read my post?

The fact of the matter is that most of these victims considered innocent civilians aren't even innocent at all. They're laying bombs on the side of the road and leaking information to terrorist groups. I'm not saying that they're wrong and I'm not saying that the troops are wrong. They're both desperate groups of people in desperate situations.

As I said earlier, this war should have never happened in the first place. It's the fault of corporate greed and political corruption.

I think that's cool how you can portray an individual soldier as the source of the problem, you delusional fuck. If anything, you're the illogical one. As I said, just read the fucking post so I don't have to reiterate what I previously said, while stripping away everything you have inserted into the argument.

>actually replying to a thread started by a professional welfare queen
>even considering the opinion of a welfare queen

How does it feel to know that movies/books/and television shows will depict the military inaccurately, and because no one cares what you welfare queens think because you don't have enough money to consume entertainment goods, you will never actually have a say, and we (people who work for a living and pay taxes) will continue to enjoy our faux-military shit for eons to come?

Suck my dick MARINE, OOHAH

>>1942231
Sorry, but if you firebomb my neighborhood and come in with your shitty attitude like you're doing me a favor, expect to get dealt with quick. These people have been driven to violence by American troops.

>>1942231

I'm not that other guy, so I'm hoping for a reasonable response to this question. Do you sympathize with people who were part of the Wehrmacht back in World War II and had no other choice but to follow the strategic directives of their leaders?

>>1942236
I could sympathize a little bit, but not entirely because they were Nazis.

The people I'm defending are good because they're American.

>>1942236
Fuck I know you're just trolling but that really pissed me off.

>>1942235
Still, you're basing your entire argument off of your stereotypes.

>>1942241

But I mean we both understand that the problems in these situations are from the top, mainly. The collective public are defended by their countrymen in roughly the same way in most countries, and the people doing the defending, people like yourselves, give yourself up to the duty of doing that once you sign the papers. I just have always wondered the real fundamental difference between the German situation and the situations of any other country if you just slice off the rhetoric of the top. Obviously, I've never served, so that's why I find your insight important.

>>1942245
I don't care whether you're the nicest guy in the world. If you blow up my house, I'm going to be furious and would probably try to incite violence upon you. It's a universal thing.

>>1942231
>The fact of the matter is that most of these victims considered innocent civilians aren't even innocent at all. They're laying bombs on the side of the road and leaking information to terrorist groups. I'm not saying that they're wrong and I'm not saying that the troops are wrong. They're both desperate groups of people in desperate situations.

So again, its the Iraqi people's fault since "most of the people innocent". Again the troops are wrong because its their actions that have brought this shit upon themselves. Its always the initiator.

By the way, how do you make the claim that "most" Iraqis are guilty?

>As I said earlier, this war should have never happened in the first place. It's the fault of corporate greed and political corruption.

I am not disagreeing. But you are dismissing the grunt who signs up thinking they are into heroics. Or the grunts who almost usually hold racist, condescending and murderous attitudes.

>I think that's cool how you can portray an individual soldier as the source of the problem, you delusional fuck. If anything, you're the illogical one. As I said, just read the fucking post so I don't have to reiterate what I previously said, while stripping away everything you have inserted into the argum

I didn't say they are the sole source, but I don't agree that you can dismiss their role. I've met plenty of good soldiers who are disgusted by the shit their fellow soldiers do. You can have a moral consciousness in this whole matter.

>>1942245
By golly, gang. I sense--yes, I sense someone who is in the military and thinks he does not do whatever the fuck his C.O. thinks he should do.

Such is life in the military. You receive your orders and think it's what you, yourself, want.

>>1942241
You are no different than the 1930's German who supports the Nazis.

Just because they are good ole Murrikans right?

>>1942248
I've never served either. I'm not OP.

>>1942250
I agree with your point entirely, but all I'm saying is that most of the blame needs to be put on the people on top.

>>1941679
I can't hear you over the sound of my successful writing career.

>mfw 100+ replies

this thread is faggot, and so is OP

>>1942256
>Is oblivious to the fact that that was obviously a troll comment

>>1942257
Yeah but that doesn't excuse the individual soldiers that are in the war. Every day they can decide to up and quit. It's pretty simple to not kill someone, or to not take orders.

>>1942255
There is no character issue if a retarded officer tells them to bomb a school.

There is one if they take the initiative to fuck people up on their own, like when a few grunts lost a buddy and decided to take revenge by murdering and raping a girl. Or if they shoot up a family who they suspect leaked some info.

>>1942263
>>1942264
>>1942262
>>1942261
I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY SUCCESSFUL WRITING CAREER.

>>1942263
But to do that they'd have to run away from the U.S. government.

>>1942263
What the are they going to do, just go on welfare and unemployment? We're talking about someone whose half as intelligent as your average unemployed /lit/ bum.

Additionally, it's not like they can just get up and quit. When they sign up it's basically a contract. Plus, even if they want to leave so bad to the point where they go AWOL they're facing jail-time.

They're obviously to blame, but when signing up, the pros obviously outweigh the cons.>>1942263

>>1942278
>THIS JUST IN: IF YOU DON'T WORK FOR THE MILITARY YOU MUST BE ON WELFARE.

>>1942278
If given the choice between killing innocent people and jail time, lock me up. It's called integrity for a fucking reason.

>>1942285
pansy moralfag detected

>>1942287
I agree with that "pansy moralfag," and I don't care the consequences.

You faggots may rule the world, but you sure as shit don't rule the afterlife.

>>1942287

But isn't it harder to have morals?

>>1942285
I can imagine only 20-35% of deployed soldiers do actual killing.

Also, considering how scummy and dangerous prisons are, you'll probably end up killing someone anyway.

>>1942287
>pansy
>willing going to jail

does not compute

>>1942285
I WOULD DO THE MORALLY RIGHT THING IN EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATION IF IT WAS GIVEN TO ME BECAUSE I AM PERFECT.