/lit/ - Literature

>>19413316
I thought there was an academic consensus that there's a pretty clear Platonic influence in Paul.

>other cultures are so freakin cool and interesting!!!!

>>19413316
>what a grand tragedy.
You don’t know how bad things are

>>19413316
Nobody cared about autistic theological disputes apart from a handful of guys, it’s just that they were the ones who wrote a ton. Average person worshipped just like their ancestors who were Pagan did, they just swapped out names.

If the old paganism wasn't just myths why is Christianity the biggest religion on earth, the Catholic Chuch the oldest surviving institution on earth, why did our ancestors convert to Christianity and why have countless generations of martyrs died for it in the most horrendous ways?

Theosis is in catholicism also. I'll pray for you.

>>19413417
Great point. Most Christians were illiterate peasants. It’s a shame that their culture and the traditions of their ancestors were erased in favor of the same Hebrew stories over and over.

>>19413437
You could call the countless slaughtered by the Catholic Church martyrs, just not to your borrowed Israelite god.

>>19413316
You can blame Constantine for that. And the fag caesarius for whining about Julian. Imagine being labeled a person of great virtue because all you did was convert. Embarrassing

>>19413437
Ignorance
Why did countless generations use bloodletting and leeches

>>19413316
Reading about shit like homoousion and perichoresis is surreal. It's like something out of a satire.

>>19413484
>homoousian
> The Gnostics were the first to use the word ὁμοούσιος, while before the Gnostics there is no trace at all of its existence.

Makes you thunk

>>19413316
>heraclitus
shit taste
>autismos nuances and hyperlinked fair tales jewish
you are autistic
>theoria theosis logos
memes
>hellenic
aka homosexual
>eastern orthodoxy
controlled by muslims
>grand tragedy
because some old nerds got unpopular, yeah that's the saddest story ever boo-hoo-hoo, I'm crying, there are tears coming out of my eyes I'm so sad, it's so tragic and it's the worst thing ever, oh my gosh, oh, I'm shitting my pants with tears, oh help me I can't stop crying and shitting oh gosh it's just SUCH A FUCKING TRAGEDY ANON, IT'S SO FUCKING SAD, ISN'T IT JUST A NIGHTMARE, IT'S TERRIBLE RIGHT? RIGHT????

>>19413446
Their traditions mainly got re-framed. Holloween as we know it is irish pagan, the church made November 1st all saints day, Christmas as we celebrate it is pagan tradition, there are healing springs all over europe that got given saint names in place of other names. Plenty of examples of this kind of thing,

>>19413671
The image we have of Jesus also comes from the general artistic representation of ancient Hellenic philosophers. There’s a lot of pagan influence on Christianity too. A lot of bad information is out there on the topic (Zeitgeist is a joke) but there’s plenty of solid evidence that Christianity began as some kind of revelatory mystery religion and then their divine savior figure (his name just means “savior”) was euhemerized into a dying-and-rising magic man.

Plenty of strong parallels between Mary & Jesus and Isis & Horus, although mostly aesthetically.

>>19413662
Seeth some more.

>>19413316
The dropoff in quality of literature from the pagan to Christian eras is absolutely astounding. In a couple of centuries we go from Lucian, Plutarch, Tacitus, Aurelius, Plotinus to a bunch of stale homilies and sermons, It's so sad.

I started with the Greeks and I now worship their Gods

I'm kind of on the opposite side of things. Started with the Greeks and for every one cool Greek there are three or four Reddit tier fags who can't get past muh rationalism and muh everything must be grounded in materialism and logic with no regards for spirituality. Unironically beginning to think the roots of our current decline started in Athens.

>>19413323
Paul is a neo platonist

>>19413922
>for every one cool Greek there are three or four Reddit tier fags who can't get past muh rationalism and muh everything must be grounded in materialism and logic with no regards for spirituality
Don't worry, you will join them one day once you get fed up with the LARP.

>>19413922
>the greeks were materialists who lacked spirituality
Lmao this is why we shouldn't let retards read books

>>19413662
Hello moshe

>>19413343
Yeah, idk why the LARPers think Jews are so cool. Imagine getting your theology from Mark Zuckerberg, Jared Kushner, and Chuck Schumer lmfao.

>>19413922
>Unironically beginning to think the roots of our current decline started in Athens.

“It is almost as if the Greeks, at a moment when they were about to disappear from history, wished to avenge themselves for their own incomprehension by imposing on a whole section of mankind the limitations of their own mental horizon”
- Rene Guenon

>>19414487
Goddam that perfectly sums it up, thanks anon. Been interested in reading Guenon for a while, this has convinced me to take the leap.

>>19414487
>be immersed in the limitations of Christfag theology
>accuse the Greeks of being responsible for cultural decline
Lel what a fag

>>19414487
His gripe with the Greeks is what? That they sought to illuminate the darkness, tried to discern the truth with rational argument, looked to philosophy rather than to political/religious/common authority?

Tell me truthfully anons, because I don't know, is there anything substantial to this figure Guenon or is his thought just to scurry back to the comfort of the darkness of tradition (for its own sake). I am further put off him by the calibre of person that seems to champion him here, but there is no sense in avoiding a thing just because you disagree with it, so if there's any substance in his reasoning beyond tradition for tradition's sake I'll take a look

>>19414487
(PBUH)!

>>19413437
>If christianity wasn't just myths why is capitalism the biggest religion on earth

>le greeks were le rationalist materialists
Holy shit read more

>>19413916
And then we got Eriugena, St. Anselm, Nibelungenlied, Gottfried von Straßburg, Chrétien de Troyes, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Geoffrey Chaucer, Saxo Grammaticus, Snorri Sturluson, Abelard, Lombard, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Ockham, Dante, Petrarch, Buridan, Cusanus, and countless other invaluable works. I don't know why you would hold homilies and sermons in a low regard. Is there something inherently about that form that prevents the formation of great and inspiring thoughts? I view the classical tradition as continuous with the later medieval tradition. If you have the highest regard for the idea of virtue and nobility, then you will certainly enjoy ascetics like St. Evagrios Pontikos.

>>19414873
Not saying all Greeks were rationalist materialists - but if rationalist materialism did not start with the Greeks, who did it start with?

>>19414907
Based book reader. All too rare on /lit/ these days.

>>19413452
>borrowed god
no, its THE god. abraham had no religion, adam had no religion. god is god. call it whatever you want, allah, Yahweh, jehovah. doesnt matter. "my god vs your god" is polytheistic garbage. humanity threw that ideological hurdle away and began arguing about the proper way to follow or worship god. then god grew tired of humanities stupidity and sent the angel gabriel to the prophet Muhammad to set the record straight once and for all, and now we're in the mess we're in now.

>>19413703
artistic representation of the prophets is blasphemy for this very reason. islam solves this problem and gabriel confirms the story of jesus but dispels the pagan nonsense that rode his coattails

>>19414997
>"my god vs your god" is polytheistic garbage. humanity threw that ideological hurdle away and began arguing about the proper way to follow or worship god.
That's a much worse ideological hurdle than being tolerant of different names of god(s) performing similar functions, to insist that everyone has both the theology and the rites correct or else you have to persecute them

>>19415033
>to insist that everyone has both the theology [...] correct
Yes, truth is a desirable thing.
>and the rites
This is completely false, nobody claimed there is only one particular method or manner in which believers should worship the divine. There are countless rites within the Catholic Church alone. The Roman Rite isn't even the only Latin rite, for example.

>>19415058
I am using rites in a much broader sense. Certainly the Hellenistic, Germanic, Irish, Slavic, Mesoamerican, Arab, etc. ways of worshipping god have been unacceptable to abrahamoids until very recently e.g. pachamama

>>19415087
Well, this is a bit odd because modern-day critics tend to say much of Christian worship and celebration is actually pagan in origin.

>>19415142
What something's origins are and what it actually is are different matters entirely. The pagans knew nothing of biblical compliance.

>>19415033
id say it is worse yes. the muslim bit at the end was tongue in cheek, but it was to highlight that the prevalence of Christianity and Islam respectfully is that they (i have no idea how to word this but ill try) "consolidated" various theologies. the extremists and dogmatic zealots are still a problem but they are a vocal minority. i think we're only a couple hundred years away MAX from some kind of unitarian ideologies being the only religions left, if any survive at all

>>19415171
>unitarian ideologies being the only religions left
What, you mean capital? Lel

>>19415169
Of course, the Christian forms of worship are not directed to Apollo or Tyr. I'm curious to know what you mean by 'biblical compliance' though.

>>19415191
i meant to say universalist not unitarian. i suppose your response still applies though

>>19413940
>heh mug suspended belief is so rational and smart
You are nothing but flesh, empty of anything vital or spiritual, thinking ye has cracked the code of life but is uninteresting and afraid of identifying with anything outside of your own sensual experiences. Gay as fuck

>>19415236
I'm not afraid of identifying with things outside of ordinary experience (in fact I spent a lot of time trying to do just that), I just have no reason to suspect any of it is any more than human life. I think, on the contrary, that you are arrogant for thinking you've cracked the code of human life based on... what? sentimentality, intuition. I am not an anti-mystic. I am a disappointed mystic

>>19415253
*any of it is any more than human larp

>>19415236
>you are nothing but flesh, empty of rational thought or reason, thinking you have cracked the code of life by reading the schizophrenic babble of superstitious men
Gay as fuck

>>19413316
How come a Jewish revolutionary communist cult got hijacked by a Platonist Roman secret policeman???

>>19413922
Remind me I am browsing this board with 12 year olds -_-

>>19415308
>-_-

>>19415192
What do you think it means? The one true religion with its one true revelation of course. Much thought and expression has been both inspired and banned for this

>>19415315

>>19413922
Based. You have the Nietzschean opinion of why the Greeks were dull but you forget that the pre-socratics were different. They were inspired by some divine ideas about the nature of the world that goes beyond rationality, while Socrates/Plato started the serious rationalist apollonian thinking that ruined the mysteries of God and Being.

>>19413316
The New Testament was definitely influenced by classical ideas, especially stoicism and platonism, but I understand why it can seem like it's less compelling.
I personally have a soft spot for late antiquity where everything gets mushed together even more. Last year I read the Dionysiaca, which is about Dionysus going to war with India. The same author later wrote a paraphrase of the Gospel of John. Look to the times where things intertwine, and you'll be able to see how things you thought were gone are carried forward.

>>19413922
>>19415393
The Greeks understood better than anyone that you needed the Appolonian and the Dionysian. The Roman's maybe less so.

>>19415393
Yeah I started with Waterfield's The First Philososphers and really dug some of the early thinking going on. Heraclitus both fascinated and terrified me.

>>19413354
> You don’t know how bad things are
If only somebody would tell them

>>19413437
>the Catholic Chuch the oldest surviving institution on earth
actually it’s the greek orthodox church

Well, we drive metal boxes everywhere, so...

>>19414923
probably germans or some other bugman barbar race

>>19415236
How could a thing nothing but flesh, empty of anything vital or spiritual perceive anything beyond its own sensual experiences?
You appear to put forward both the stance of a vulgar modern materialist and a spiritual mystic at the same time. Impressive

>>19415330
Christians are willing to admit that there are hints and glimpses of divine revelation in other traditions. Minucius Felix, for example, suggested the idea that Thales might have been directly inspired by God when he formulated his theory of the cosmos.

>>19415678
>suggested the idea that Thales might have been directly inspired by God
Why would God lie to Thales instead of just revealing himself? This is bad faith proselytizing and nothing more.

>>19415725
Wut? Thales might have been divinely inspired when he came up with his lofty theory of the cosmos, but I don't know what you meant here. I think the original point about Christians having many rites of worship still stands imo. They just don't have a pantheon in the same way a hellenic worshipper might have in 400 BC or something.

https://matrix.to/#/#ElysianFieldsVerify:matrix.org
Join the Matrix group for pagan/polytheistic religions if you're interested in paganism or practice one of the pagan religions. We need new members to rebuild the community after getting deplatformed by Discord for taking the piss out of their holy cows (trannies).
Download Element for a decentralized, secure and pro-free speech alternative to Discord:
https://element.io/
/pol/tards stay the fuck out

>>19415393
You are retarded, and probably 15. Go back to me when you read Plato

>>19415393
The Oera Linda says the same thing. Cecrops the Egyptian Sandnigger invaded Minerva and Ion's Greece with his dulling barbaric force. There was Aewa the law written in the heart and the quality of soul and the flame that the Virgin temple held for generations continuously burning. This was lost in Greece.
Socrates "knows nothing" and is called wise for people who trial him for being logical. The Minerva generation of Fryasfolk were logical and wiser than him. There are things you know that are obvious and without doubt that no doubt can absolve your knowledge and truth of. What can you not fail to know? This is your character. Your standard for which negligence deviated from is upheld.

>>19415844
You're immature. Come back when you read Pythagoras

>>19415889
And to prove you wrong? You have 0 idea of what you talk about

>>19415033
It flabbergasts me to hear people I know and work with to tell me about their past as pastors and priests. They say there is a huge difference between Orthodoxy Catholicism and [PROTESTANT FLAVOR X]
Actually there isn't. You're hust following specific franchisee rules and think that the volumes being distinct somehow are brand new things. This is like a Latin@shit pretending Tacos burritos and chimichangas and flautas and enchiladas are radically different ways of consuming corn flour, flour, meat, and salsa. They are not. But they are cause for argument with your server and thus holy war as well with pulpits as arbitrated by sarcastic cynically disinterested moneyed powers.

>>19415896
I'm not the Anon who you (You)'d in
>>19415393
Oh but I do because
I'm this Anon and I have a nice book report to share with you oh grumpy gills
>>19415887
The Pythagorean Sourcebook is a rare find that made me reevaluate how much of a deviant Plato is from the thought common to his age. Plato is taught at the beginning of philosophy classes but a truly historically chronologically faithful put Plato in his place. Many of the same arguments IndoEuropean spirituality had with Abrahamic Dogma were paralleled to more civilized degree by Plato's severed perfect forms realm from Pythagoras's inextractable integral spiritual essence of number.

>>19415942
Some typos my bad. Faithful presentation*

THE MIDDLE AGES WERE THE PEAK OF HUMANITY.
Nothing will ever surpass langue d’oc poetry, Dante, Cavalcanti, Guinizelli, Chaucer.

>>19415969
Peak garbage, nigga

>>19414907
Screencapped
Norse Sagas were fun. Snake eye Sigfried SOVL Calibur

>>19415831
It's a conversion technique to argue A was almost B or actually B all along and therefore B should be accepted.

>>19415393
Socrates and Plato are not Apollonian, they are Socratic/Alexandrian like the name says which you would know if you had actually read Nietzsche.

>>19416076
>it's a conversion technique
So? Syllogisms are also 'techniques', but that doesn't make their conclusions necessarily false. Minucius Felix didn't claim Thales was 'actually a Christian all along', only that due to the sheer loftyness of his thoughts he was probably inspired by the Almighty.

>>19414907
All of those names are several centuries later, mostly beginning with the 12th century renaissance, so like a millennium after the classical names I mentioned (on whom they all depend). What a gigantic hole in literature.
And some of the names you tried to sneak past there, lmao. Snorri is relaying pagan myths. And who the fuck reads Saxo Grammaticus? Anyway, the bulk of your list is scholastic philosophy, which while an impressive intellectual exercise is neither true like the moderns nor even edifying to read like the classics.
>I don't know why you would hold homilies and sermons in a low regard.
Because their purpose is expressedly not one of literary value (indeed aestheticism in itself is held in suspicion), and their world is mean and narrow and lacking in intellectual humility.
>If you have the highest regard for the idea of virtue and nobility, then you will certainly enjoy ascetics like St. Evagrios Pontikos.
I don't hold in regard people who flee the world. That is, if anything, the easy option. What is noble is to cultivate virtue in the face of a terrible world, as Marcus Aurelius and others attempted to.

Anyway. It is simply a fact that the Christian takeover of western society resulted in a dramatic downgrading of the value of belles lettres for ~ a thousand years until humanism raised it again. Yes, Christianity eventually got there with Dante (although no-one really *enjoys* his episodes of scholasticism in verse either). But it took a helluva long time and required great compromise with pagan antiquity itself. Fortunately those repeated church condemnations of the teaching of Aristotle never had their desired effect.

>>19414907
>In this episode I pretend to be much more high-minded than I am for internet points

>>19413343
>jewish culture is my culture

>>19416396
>Snorri is relaying pagan myths

So based too.

>"'Neath the sea the land sinketh,
>the sun dimmeth,
>from the heavens
>fall the fair, bright stars;
>gusheth forth steam and gutting fire,
>to very heaven soar
>the hurtling flames.
>The fates I fathom,
>yet farther I see:
>of the mighty gods
>the engulfing doom.
>Comes the darksome dragon flying,
>Níthhogg,
>upward from the Nitha Fells.
>He bears in his pinions
>as the plains he o'erflies,
>naked corpses:
>now he will sink."

>>19416448
>Jewish tribal myths that explain why they cut their babies' dicks and why to avoid shitting near camp

>>19414997
>call it whatever you want, allah, Yahweh, jehovah. doesnt matter. "my god vs your god" is polytheistic garbage.

and yet:
>muh tribal stories of Yahweh and El are teh real history!!!

>>19415253
>>19415264
Same boat here anon. I don't have any desire to become a materialist (seems like a waste or time to dig deep into that, especially as an identity) but I'm pretty disappointed that all the mysticism seems to just be the same sort of transcendent experiences in different contexts across time. Any good authors on this?

>>19415298
>Jewish revolutionary communist cult
This part itself is a myth, mostly projected by historians who want some historical Jesus they can get paid by Christians to talk about, but the whole thing is based on extremely faulty and vapid evidence. It looks like what we got was some sort of divine savior made into this wonder-working sage.

>>19415399
The whole thing was written by Greeks repackaging their common myths and philosophical ideas into a neo-Jewish larp

>>19415544
I mean it may think that it's something beyond it's sensual experiences but there's nothing to indicate that that's the case.

>>19416279
>due to the sheer loftyness of his thoughts he was probably inspired by the Almighty.
Do you want me to spell it out for you? It's a dumb, weak argument to make, and the point is to convince people who respected Thales that they should not feel "dumb" for disagreeing with "smart" people who were not Christian since they were "kinda sorta if you look closely actually almost Christians." Just listen to yourself; you find this compelling?

>>19416396
You know the Middle Ages started properly around mid 8th century to mid/late 14th, right?

> the bulk of your list is scholastic philosophy, which while an impressive intellectual exercise is neither true like the moderns nor even edifying to read like the classics.
I'm not him so I'd add >>19415969. Nobody is denying the greatness of Homer, Pindar, Plato; but imagine being an uncouth idiot trying to assert any aesthetic judgment while ignoring the greatness of all stilnovisti, the langue d'oc poets, the first sonnet poets, all the chivalric romances and culture, the fricking Gothic art, especially architecture. You have no idea how some of the medieval poetic movements were proto-romantic and cherished the same values as the later Romantics would also cherish.

>I don't hold in regard people who flee the world.
Then why did you even cite Plotinus, lmao, retard.

>the Christian takeover of western society resulted in a dramatic downgrading of the value of belles lettres for ~ a thousand years until humanism raised it again.
You are an absolute lower plebeian. You have no idea about what you are talking as much of a pretentious uncouth ignoramus as you are. Learn another language and start reading more.

>>19413417
Why are they like this now then?

>>19416774
>the fricking Gothic art, especially architecture.
Fuck off pleb

>>19416775
You mean why are people rambling about theological disputes now? Unironically because of common literacy and the ability to pull up any church father text at a whim.

>>19416396
>all of those names are several centuries later
Yes, it's called the Dark Ages.
>so like a millennium adter the classical names I mentioned (on whom they all depend)
Yes, we can get into late antiquity if you wish to do so. I hope you didn't add that last clause in the hopes of depreciating Dante or Aquinas.
>Snorri is relaying pagan myths
Snorri was a Christian.
>And who the fuck reads Saxo Grammaticus
One of the greatest characters in English literature, Prince Hamlet, comes from Saxo Grammaticus. Nietzsche also read him.
>Anyway, the bulk of your list is scholastic philosophy
Nope, only like seven or so names are scholastic. Their being scholastics doesn't preclude their being great.
>because their purpose is expressedly not one of literary value
Yeah, let's just conveniently forget that possibly the largest corpus in all of antiquity comes from a Christian sermonist literally called "Honey-Tongued". C'mon bro.
>their world is mean and narrow and lacking in intellectual humility
These men were more humble than you could possibly imagine. They are literal saints.
>I don't hold in regard people who flee the world
You don't like monks or hermits? I thought fleeing the world would be positively received on /lit/, but here we are...
>What is noble is to cultivate virtue in the face of a terrible world, as Marcus Aurelius and others attempted to
Christians also did that.
>It is simply a fact that the Christian takeover of western society resulted in a dramatic downgrading of the calue of belles lettres for a thousand years until humanism raised it again
You literally have a meme understanding of history

>>19416435
>claims there is no valuable literature after roughly 200 CE besides stale sermons and homilies
>provides numeorus instances of great literature to the contrary
>y-you're doing this for internet points
I accept your concession

>>19416790
>he ignored everything I posted to post this decrepit shit and called me a pleb

>>19416790
You're being dishonest.

>>19416691
Repeating your previous points that were already refuted will not convince me to adopt your position

>>19416886
>art of the same jew larpers over and over and over

>>19416396
>all of those names are several centuries later, mostly beginning with the 12th century renaissance
Confessions by Saint Augustine is one of the most beautiful books I've ever read and it was written in 400 AD.

>>19416396
>12th century
>renaissance
12th century was a period of High Middle Ages. How can this place attract so many braindead people? Just go away, please.

>>19416774
>You know the Middle Ages started properly around mid 8th century to mid/late 14th, right?
I am well aware of periodisation. Do you think I'm an idiot? As I said it took until the 12th century renaissance for anything worthwhile to come out of Medieval literature that wasn't indebted to pagan myth (Beowulf, the Eddas etc.), or for scholars to start doing philosophy rather than regurgitating Augustine. That's a long time.
>ignoring the greatness of all stilnovisti, the langue d'oc poets, the first sonnet poets, all the chivalric romances
I do enjoy Dante's sonnet "Guido, i' vorrei che tu e Lapo ed io". And Occitan is a beautiful language. But troubadour poetry is too conventional and chivalric literature also too overburdened with allegory for my tastes. There is a reason why Cervantes mocked this stuff (although it was of course for him a guilty pleasure too in part).
If you had mentioned the Goliards I might have been more impressed. As it is there is nothing in approaching the complexity and worldly wisdom of a Horace, as high a bar as that may be...
>You have no idea how some of the medieval poetic movements were proto-romantic
Romanticism was important because it was an epochal reorientation of the purpose of art from "delighting and instructing" the audience to an expression of the inner soul of the author himself. It's highly anachronistic to apply this to the Medieval period where there had not yet been, as a technical matter, the separation of art from patronage as happened in the 18th century.
>the fricking Gothic art, especially architecture
Oh, the Medievals were excellent builders, that is true. But it has nothing to do with literature. It is noteworthy that the artform they succeeded most in, architecture, is the most eminently practical of the arts.
>Then why did you even cite Plotinus
Because as much as I disagree with Plotinus, he was an intellectual who thought deeply and fruitfully about the world in a nondogmatic manner. Indeed for all that he has been called "the last Greek rationalist" by Dodds. Sadly things went off the rails after him.

I'll ignore your silly insults.

>>19416928
>Confessions by Saint Augustine is one of the most beautiful books I've ever read

>>19416962
Ayo chill there buddy, there were several renaissances in the middle ages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Renaissance?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_Renaissance?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_of_the_12th_century?wprov=sfla1

>>19416983
He hasn't read it, anon.

>>19416808
According to Aquinas 99% of people that cite Aquinas should be illiterate serfs, for their own good.

>>19416925
Tell me what you feel when you look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV3gjyKIMEo

>>19416928
Augustine is impressive because he was an ex-Neoplatonist who read the pagan classics directly, anon. This is a guy who quoted Plotinus on his deathbed lmao.

>>19416963
The biggest fallacy in your reasoning is that you assume the rise of Christianity is to blame for the decline of "literary quality" when that makes very little sense with the present evidence

>>19416851
What an extremely weak rebuttal.

>>19417012

>>19417022
What an extremely weak response. Perhaps one day you will stop huffing your own farts and grow some brains to come up with a real answer. But alas, this is all you have for now.

>>19417014
Nobody is saying pagan literature is bad

>>19417014
So what? I don't get your point.

>>19416983
?

>>19417053
Every other thread on any pre-Christian literature on /lit/ inevitably devolves into some fag saying literally the opposite.

>>19416851
Let me just interrupt the seething for a minute here: what are the specific criteria for you to accept that "the Dark Ages" is a thing? Barbecue normally you hold that they don't exist and are just made up.

>>19417021
Yeah, I'm being deliberately polemical. Most of the issue was the decline of urbanisation from barbarian invasion and warfare. But it's still true that on top of that there was a deliberate downgrading of the value of belles lettres in the new Christian world and literary energies were directed away from the classical tradition and into endless homilies and theological minutiae.

>>19417068
>Barbecue normally

kek

>>19417068
A calm, mediated response is considered seething nowadays apparently. I hold that the Dark Ages, particularly in Europe, did happen. I simply disagree with the attemot to explain it by holding that Christianity is some grand anti-literary force. The bulk of Christian literature, the transmission of manuscripts, and the educational backgrounds of many Christian bishops points to the contrary. The guy above seems to me like he doesn't know what he wants. I could give an example of a great theologian from the 7th century, and he would simply dismiss my suggestion by stating his personal taste (like he did with Horace, for example). If all he can say is "Meh, I don't like it" or "I specifically require you to direct me to astounding pieces of world literature written in 7th-century Latin Europe", then I am afraid he won't be convinced to change his opinion by anyone.

>>19416963
>Do you think I'm an idiot?
Of course I do, the reasons for which I already expressed above and will reiterate again.
For one:

>or for scholars to start doing philosophy rather than regurgitating Augustine.
So you are unaware of John Damascene?

>troubadour poetry is too conventional
What? Conventional in what way? In melopoeia? lol, if you think so you have never read or heard any of poem recited as it is, in my opinion, on par with, if not above (Pound would say with reasonably), italian and latin in dimension of melodic articulation.
In themes? Passionate love is here for the first time transformed into what we will understand by ''common'' love, amor. This is like saying that the classics, like Shakespeare, are full of platitudes because they are still reproduced to this day. What a fucking dumb commentary, either provide any substantial opinion or shut the fuck up.

>chivalric literature also too overburdened with allegory
Since you again just spouted your plebeian taste I'll quote a guy with whom you are probably familiar ''The greatest thing by far is to have a command of metaphor. This alone cannot be imparted by another; it is the mark of genius, for to make good metaphors implies an eye for resemblances''

>If you had mentioned the Goliards I might have been more impressed
They were implied in all the poetic movements I said, especially as representative of the proto-Romantic movement.

>It's highly anachronistic to apply this to the Medieval period where there had not yet been, as a technical matter, the separation of art from patronage as happened in the 18th century.
You yourself cited the fucking Goliards. They were for the most part independent and represented exactly that rebellious disposition that was essential to, for example, German Romantics. And you were also the one who brought anachronistic comparisons saying ''muh they were not like the moderns''.

>But it has nothing to do with literature
It has with art. But I find this a good idea to just pass this one on since Gothic Architecture stands out and there is barely any comparison at all with other architectures.

>Because as much as I disagree with Plotinus, he was an intellectual who thought deeply and fruitfully about the world in a nondogmatic manner
Have you read his quote about how what he presents is nothing new? Yes, he is just following Plato and Aristotle. His whole philosophy is an interpretation of Plato. Proclus himself said Plotinus was the greatest exegete of Plato. He even copied Plato in his dogmatic presentation of ''secrete doctrines''. Interestingly it was with a branch of scholastics that nominalism would develop and influence later modern philosophy and posit Faith as something different (above) reason, a recurring point to people like Hume, Fichte, Jacobi, Kant.

>>19417076
>there was a deliberate downgrading of the value of belles lettres in the new Christian world
What pieces of evidence point in this direction?
>literary energies were directed away from the classical tradition and into endless homilies and theological minutiæ
which cannot possibly count as great pieces of literature, for some unknown reason...

>>19417001
ayo buddy i'm sorry i was too caught up in the discussion here!

>>19417143
>A calm, mediated response
that is not what >>19417162 and >>19416851 are

>>19413316
Cant believe lit anons are actually arguing about the Christian dark ages. Remember that the idea of a Christian dark ages was thought up by some woman "academic".

>>19417162
>>19416963
>>or for scholars to start doing philosophy rather than regurgitating Augustine. So you are unaware of John Damascene?
Fuck, I forgot to develop things here.

But first of all: what is the problem with augustinian philosophers? Eriugena is one of the most important christian theologians for Christianity and influences platonists, perennialists, muslims, buddhists and other apophatic theologies, to this day. Hugh and Richard of Saint Victor, Bonaventure, are likewise brilliant intellectuals who contributed to aesthetics, linguistics. To dismiss everything because of Augustianism (again I don't even understand why... because before 700 AD? Then why claim Gemistus Pletho, for example?) is another fucking dumb take of yours.

Started with the Velothi now I hate the tribunal

>>19417143
>A calm, mediated response is considered seething nowadays apparently.
Man you're such a fag

>>19417184
The first response isn't mine. The second response retains a mild tone throughout the entire post.

>>19417175
no worries bro just keep chill bro ain't no fumes round these parts

>>19417212
now this is seething

>>19413316
>How did we go from Heraclitus and Homer to autismos bickering about the nuances and hyperlinked meaning of Jewish fairy tales?

Seeing this post in the catalog, before even clicking on it, I immediately thought of Augustine.

>Whereas Augustine once scorned the crude language and lack of rhetorical sophistication he found in the Christian Scriptures, under Ambrose’s tutelage he came to see that the rhetorical genius of the Bible lay in the suitability of its humble language to its rhetorical end.

Pic related unpacks Augustine's change of mind respecting the Bible in greater detail.

Which is not to say you will have a conversion similar to Augustine's in this regard, but one never knows, do one?

>>19417411
>some ancient incel learned to love shitty writing

Wow what an amazing story

>>19416963

Absolutely based.

>>19415969
All of those were writing at the very end of it, just as classical ideas and aesthetics were starting to resurface again.

>>19416552
>Jewish New Testament was written by Greeks
Yeah and Avatar the Last Airbender was produced in Shangrila

Reminder that the Hellenistic world heavily influence Judaism and early Christianity, without these influences the Jewish globohomo would never take off in the west

>>19417734
The period of High Middle Ages is the end of it? Arnaut Daniel, Cavalcanti writing in the 12th and 13th century were writing at the very end of it? How can you be so dishonest to this point, just to slander Christianity? Even Nietzsche lauded the gai saber and the provençal culture. To keep up with Nietzsche, you are a hell of a mental slave and filled with resentment.

>>19417769
Succinct and based.

>>19417734
Also, what is classical in Chaucer? The guy literally assumed the chivalric and medieval culture to all of his works.

>classical ideas and aesthetics were starting to resurface again
You only forgot to remember that they never went away. Aristotelianism was the scientific model on which most philosophical investigations rested, there is here a continuation besides the different, more platonic and less empirical/nominalist, philosophical movements of the time.

What is classical in Guinizelli? In the stilnovisti in general, in the trouvador tradition? These are what they are precisely for their genuine idiosyncratic character.

>>19417637
>this is not good because i dont like it
ABSOLUTELY BASED

>i dont like allogeroies
ABSOLUTELY BASED

>Plotinus like thought a lot about the world... in a non dogmatic way!
ABSOLUTELY BASED

I'm sure you are just like me waiting for another absolutely based response to what I wrote here >>19417162

It's unbelievable how resentful people are when they reach the point of accusing one of the most rich periods in human history of being ''empty'', a ''break from Greek thought'' when in fact this break occurred precisely in modernity, with Descartes, then with Enlightenment and Kant, doing away with any relevancy of Platonic and Aristotelian discourse, above all as a philosophical pattern, when Christianity (and its period of intellectual production) dialogued with both of these intensively, as much as in the period of antiquity/late antiquity.

>>19417798
>>19417827
>12th and 13th century
That's post Carolingian renaissance. You won't find a lot of literature being produced before that.
As for Chaucer, he had a lot of influence from Boccaccio's Decameron, who took heavy inspiration from Ovid.
>What is classical in Guinizelli?
He is definitely a break from the medieval style, you can find all of the themes from the "Dolce Stil Novo" in his poetry.

ayo no cap some niggas be readin 200 year old shit frfr tho

I started with the Greeks now I frequent the bath houses for olive oil and sodomy

>>19417883
I've been doing that since before I started with the greeks