/lit/ - Literature

>>19399892
What does it have to say about Matthew 27:24-25, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, and John 8:44?

>>19399910
>Matthew 27:24-25
It says that this likely referred to Matthew's view that the destruction of the temple was the punishment for killing christ. They state it is not an eternal blood guilt but the evangelist had this particular cause and effect relationship in mind.

>>19399962
So, it's trash. As expected.

>>19399984
Its an accurate interpretation. That is what Matthew had in mind

>>19399892
>NRSV
disgusting

>>19399892
>letting the Pharisees annotate the Gospels

>>19400101
Catholicism forbids antisemitism or saying jews aren't saved by virtue of their religion

>>19400038
"married only once" is the only thing wrong with it. otherwise it is a good translation.

Why are Christians, especially catholics, on here so antisemitic? Sorry Jews are interested in learning about your religion and teaching you about it wtf

>>19400284
>learning about your religion and teaching you about it wtf
Here is the root of Jewish arrogance right here. You will not ‘teach me’ about my religion, dirty kike.

>>19400302
Maybe we should teach you since you are a bigot

>“To the Jewish people, whom God first chose to hear his Word, ‘belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.’”

>“The clarification is not a change in the Church’s teaching,” a press release from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) said.

“The clarification reflects the teaching of the Church that all previous covenants that God made with the Jewish people are fulfilled in Jesus Christ through the new covenant established through his sacrificial death on the cross. Catholics believe that the Jewish people continue to live within the truth of the covenant God made with Abraham, and that God continues to be faithful to them.”

>The USCCB press release cited a passage from the Second Vatican Council document Lumen Gentium, which taught that the Jewish people “remain most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts he makes nor of the calls he issues.”

>>19400332
Are you suggesting people can be saved without Christ?

>>19400339
No, the Catholic Church is

>>19400348
>the Church is
Okay. Not sure why you had to specify, seeing as there's only one Church.

>>19400352
Well for them there are at least 2, but Muslims and Protestants go to heaven too

>>19400332
Yeah I’m not a Catholic, and the real chosen people of the New Covenant are Christians (1 Peter 2:9, Galatians 6:16). Jews can become Christians.

>>19400352
Yes, the Orthodox Catholic Church which has not fallen to heresy as the Roman Catholic Church has.

>>19400332
Imagine following a """church""" that tells you that people who *reject* Christ *will* go to heaven. Not saying to pray for them that God will be merciful or something of that sort, but definitively ruling that at least some of them WILL be saved by rejecting Christ. The fucking state of Catholics lol. YOU ARE HERETICS.

>>19400411
They'll just say that these various official statements and their own catechism "don't count" or aren't infallible in some sense. They are worse than the tribe they worship with their legalistic word games and avoiding accountability for the hierarchy they claim to follow.

>>19400459
Yeah but no one is stupid enough to buy that except them.
>yeah but just because our statement of faith says that jews are saved that doesn't mean it means that, and if you disagree that means you're refusing to understand our super deep religion where words don't mean what they mean

I mean, there's a reason their fag religion is dying so fast. Their apologists are insufferable retards. Even the paid ones look like incels.

>>19400459
>>19400497
Per Catholic doctrine the Catechism is infallible. There are two ways the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the church may be exercised, called the Extraordinary and the Ordinary. The Extraordinary Magisterium is the official rulings of the Pope and Ecumenical Councils. The Ordinary Magisterium is the normative teaching of the Church, or when all bishops teach the same doctrine. This is also infallible, because it means every successor of the apostles on the planet is teaching the same thing; if they could be wrong, then the Church would have no guarantee that it teaches the truth. Now every bishop on the planet promulgates the Cathechism as an authoritative teaching document, therefore the Cathechism falls under the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium.

>>19400504
This concept also goes backwards and forwards in time. It means the normative teaching of the church in say, 800 AD, cannot contradict the normative teaching of the church in 2021 AD, as both of these must be infallible. The Church cannot universally teach the wrong doctrine in the past and then fix it later. Now these teachings do of course contradict*, ergo Catholicism is false by its own doctrine.

*example: from Unam Sanctam, issued by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302
>... we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

>>19400536
True, there are literally millions of examples like this.

>>19400558
Correct. Catholics, the ones who actually care about what is true, need to drop the cognitive dissonance and realize that the current state of the church DOES prove that Catholicism is false. The answer is Protestantism of the East. It means their guarantees of a reliable institution are wrong, or their idea of where that institution exists are wrong. It doesn't mean Christianity is wrong.

The Talmud is where it's at.

>>19400573
>Protestantism of the East.
or*

>>19399892
fuck pharisees and fake ashkenazim kikes, they will burn in hell

>>19400579
I sincerely believe any branch that obsesses over the nonexistent and totally ahistorical concept of apostolic succession is false. It is just pure larping nonsense.

>>19400585
>/lit/ isn't just /pol/ I swear!

>>19400612
It is a basic teaching of Christianity that those who reject Christ will not be saved. This applies to Jews just as much as anyone else.

>>19400629
Not according to the book in the OP, and it was peer reviewed so.

>>19400637
"No man cometh unto the father but by me."
What does this mean?

>>19400352
Yeah the body of Christ. Catholics are the whores of Babylon.

Just another reminder that if your Old Testament has fewer than 46 books, you're not saved.

>>19399984
What do you have to say about Matthew 27:24-25? Why do you disagree?

>>19400699
So Saint Athanasius is in hell? Is this the "Catholic" position?

Is it time for me to post statistics about catholic decline yet?

>>19400699
Where does the catholic catechism say this

if ur into that kind of thing check this shit out

>>19400942
The Yale OT course online is good

What are some bible verses about how I like sniffing, licking, and eating ass and enjoy watching other men do that to women in porn as well

Will people stop wasting their fucking life reading the same shitty stories over and over. I mean holy shit.

>>19401504
?

>>19401615
Talking about the Bible you retard

>>19400339
The Bible specifically mentions Jews being saved in several places. Paul specifically says Abraham was saved by obedience. In Isiah, God Himself specifically tell Isiah his sin is taken away and he is justified when the burning coal touches his lips.

Prots just read John 14.6 out of context and declare emphatically that somehow Jesus' sacrifice was only good enough to save less than a third humanity, and everyone else goes to Hell. Also a faithful Jew who prayed every day but never was told about Christ in the first century went to Hell but if Hitler and Stalin had sincere faith for even a second growing up, they are once saved always saved, and saved by faith alone, so they go to Heaven. Native Americans were, of course, doomed to Hell before 1492.

>>19401689
This isn't a remotely good or interesting post and I say this as someone who is more on your side than not. You seem very midwit and it might be better if you stop posting.

>>19400835
Islam is growing far quicker that Protestantism, does that make it correct?

>>19400332
>U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
Literally a gay sex ring, as is to be expected of americans
Post something from a country of merit

>>19401804
>it doesn't count because.... it just doesn't, ok??
Maybe if you need to discount entire countries due to gay sex pedophilia you aren't really God's le one true le church?

>>19400573
>need to drop the cognitive dissonance and realize that the current state of the church DOES prove that Catholicism is false. The answer is Protestantism of the East.
Or maybe Christianity and religion in general is just a LARP

>>19402270
Not really, unless the term Larp has absolutely no meaning like every 4chan meme. Protestantism is kind of anti Larp at a very basic level.

>>19402286
Great point. If only Protestants had theosis and theoria, but those things were lost in Catholicism anyway.

>>19402261
Discount them in terms of authority? Sure. Just because Catholicism is universal doesn't mean that everyone claiming to be Catholic is, or can be right about it.
If a teaching is by patently bad actors and is in contradiction with the known truth, it does not count. That's why it doesn't.
Thank you for the mock opponent, anon. I know you're not that dumb

>>19402809
Anon, you're talking about the official Catholic church in America, they aren't some breakaway that you can ignore. They are literally part of the Church heirarchy.

>>19402809
And the past 3-4 popes also fall into this category too. But yeah your religion totally isn't dumb bullshit despite this. And by the way, I should trust [random 4chan jackass] instead of the actual hierarchy supposedly founded by God to determine what "real" catholicism is. This is all tracking. It makes a lot of sense. I'm gonna do it... I'm gonna coooooonvert.

I loved the jewish study bible by oxford but I don't really get why they made this

>>19402989
>reading oxford's JSB instead of Alter's translation
jfmsu

>>19402990
I got it cause the yale course on the hebrew bible recommended it

>>19402997
I've generally heard that people who like the Jewish Study Bible end up purchasing and really enjoying the Jewish Annotated New Testament, for what it's worth. I'm not sure to what extent they're supposed to be seen as complementary, but most people treat them that way.

>>19402990
>instead of Alter's translation
Does that still have the URL textual error lol?

>>19403067
how embarrassing, holy shit

>>19401689
The Evangelical argument for salvation in the OT is that Isiah was seeing Christ on the throne in that vision. Jacob wrestles with Jesus is another less popular interpretation, but also gets around OT figures being saved before Christ. Moses never has a Christ-like vision though so IDK what is supposed to happen to him.

In any event, this seems like a lot of extra work considering Revaluations specifically has people coming back to life from the grave, then being judged. Presumably the people who are still unrepentant at Judgement are staring Christ and the angels in the face and still rejecting them, which is quite a bit different from some 1200s Native American never getting to hear the Gospel.

Hell is still about God's love. God won't force people to be with God if they still reject it. Hell is the absence of God. Eternal torment also isn't directly implied. More versus suggest that those condemned will die (cease to be) as opposed to those who receive life (continued being). The fire of Hell is eternal, it is never made clear that the souls that go there are. Indeed, the most obvious interpretation is that the fire consumes them and they cease to be.

>>19404342
I don't think that's the argument by evangelicals at all. Yes, the angel of the lord is Jesus, but Calvin says salvation before Christ comes from proper application of the law. That is, not following it to the letter, but allowing it to be a teacher of the importance of faith and reliance on God for salvation from sin. Before christ people are still saved by faith, but by the law through faith rather than grace through faith.

>>19404403
So Jews went to Heaven until Christ died, and now they go to Hell?

Because if faith in the Father is the key to salvation, I don't see how Jews wouldn't be saved, or Muslims too for that matter. But in most churches I hear that they are damned and only Christians can save them.

Whereas Mormons might have whacky beliefs, but they're ultimately harmless on a cosmic scale since they still have faith in Christ.

>>19404498
Well, the argument is that only God can save them by convicting them with Christian beliefs and no person can help save anyone, but at the same time it is of the utmost importance that humans, who can't bring anyone to God, go out and try to convert them anyhow.

To be honest, this never made all that much sense to be.

But if faith in the Father is enough alone, then missionary work that gets villages of people executed in sectarian violence also seems ill advised.

>>19404498
>So Jews went to Heaven until Christ died, and now they go to Hell?
>Because if faith in the Father is the key to salvation
Where did I say any of that? You're out of your depth here. If you're so interested in the evangelical position maybe read a book about it. I don't see why I should engage with you when this began with you speaking like an authority on a topic that you now admit you know nothing about. That's bad faith if I've ever seen it. Seriously. You didn't know what you were talking about, I called you out, and now you want to weirdly engage in a debate with me over it like you're not a total fucking retard. Grow up.

>>19404515
what part of "the law points to Christ" is so hard here? And before you tell me it doesn't, the New Testament begs to differ on this point so take it up with Paul.

>>19403341
Imagine spending 20 years on a project, and this slips in at the end.

>>19404543
I've been to an Evangelical service in several different churches for the past 8 years. This is how it is explained.

>salvation before Christ comes from proper application of the law. That is, not following it to the letter, but allowing it to be a teacher of the importance of faith and reliance on God for salvation from sin. Before christ people are still saved by faith, but by the law through faith rather than grace through faith.

Ok, so Jews are saved by faith before Christ, through obedience to the law based in faith. Your interpretation of Calvin. Does that still work for them today, or did it stop working after Christ died?

You appear to be making the affirmative claim that Jews were saved before Christ, I am asking by what mechanism the efficacious nature of their faith ceased to work after Christ came (or perhaps it didn't cease to work?).

These are clarifying questions, although they do seem to get at contradictions in doctrine I've seen. You're response is to throw a hissy fit, include a torrent of insults, and claim I must not have read sufficiently.

Is the argument so complex that it can't be explained simply, something akin to Hegelian dialectical or advanced mathematics?

>arguing over different types of Christianity
>all the members literally act as bad as atheists or pagans, often worse
>a few Christians actually live like Christ, own nothing, give all they can to others, don't use violence even in self defense
>the Gnostics do this, mainline Christians genocide them and burn their books, trying to erase them from history
>the Cathars do this, mainline Christians genocide them and try to erase their writings from history
>the Shakers do this, mainline Christians attack and oppress them (don't fully genocide them, so that's an improvement)
If Jesus came back today churchgoers of today would call for his arrest, if not second execution

>>19400022
>That is what Matthew had in mind
Cite your sources.

>>19405255
The law points to Christ. The Jews who were saved before Christ by faith through the law came to know Christ and have faith in him. The law itself does not, and has never saved. So someone using the law to be saved is either going to find Christ or not be saved. This is true before and after Christ. Nothing ceased to work. However, before Christ someone finding Christ would remain a Jew. After Christ they would become a Christian.

>>19405311
>Cite your sources.
The Jewish Annotated New Testament, Amy-Jill Levine (Ed.)

>>19405280
Why are you pretending to know who the historical Jesus was?

>>19405255
>Ok, so Jews are saved by faith before Christ, through obedience to the law based in faith.
This is incorrect also. I didn't say that obedience to the law saved. I said that the law is a teacher. You don't become righteous by following the law but by learning through the law that faith in Christ is how you are saved.

>>19405337
>>19405344
>You're supposed to decode 250 pages of rules about pork, various ways you can't cook food, various ways to make up for sins by burning grain or dead animal fat, directions for manufacturing lampstands, prescriptions for living in a booth for a week each year, rules for divorce, immigration law, and lists of which bodily discharges are clean or unclean into the story of Christ.

Damn, no wonder God had to give those Jews such high IQ. I'm not seeing a clearly connection. You'd think since Moses knew Christ he would have included a bit more on him, a bit less on the exact depth one needs to dig a hole that they shit into.

>>19405632
If you read the New Testament instead of shitposting you would understand this is what it teaches clearly. Don't complain to evangelicals about it, complain to Paul and the gospels.

>>19405632
maybe you can't see the connection because you're not elect? did you ever think of that? its entirely possible God doesn't love you and the holy spirit wants nothing to do with you?

>>19403067
wtf, this can't be real

>>19399892
Honestly, who gives two shits what the descendants of the pharisees have to say about Jesus Christ lol.

why devote any more time or energy to listening to kikes seethe lmao. pathetic waste of time.

>>19400155
>Well akchually Jesus is wrong about Pharisees

The absolute state of ecumenist dumpster fires in our time

>>19405810
Its actually p good though

>>19404552
Retard. The law points upwards towards G-d. Like the fingers of babies.

>>19405810
Because there were 3 sects not 1 you retard. Christians really dont even study their own religion, it seems only Catholics do. What happened to your people?

>>19400348
>No, the Catholic Church is
Literally just read Lumen Gentium and correct your ignorance. Jews not having genetic irredeemable bloodguilt =/= they are saved by their covenant.

>>19405795
It is. I'm currently trying to hunt down a set at any nearby library so I can confirm whenever it was fixed in a second printing. If not, no way I'm spending $80 for a shoddy product like that.

>>19406446
>Christians really dont even study their own religion, it seems only Catholics do.
Because they got to do all the cool shit in history, like assemble the Holy League or call crusades. As a non-Catholic, I could see how reading Catholic history is much cooler.

>>19400155
Religion doesn't save you. Faith and works save you. Faith is not the same thing as religion. Many catholics and many jews may be religious in the sense they are baptised or circumcised, go to church or synagogue, have a cross or a mezuzah in their house but this isn't the same thing as having a relationship with God and doing His will. "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord... but he who does the will of my Father." I think its stupid and arrogant to think that the genuine pharisees who weren't hypocrits but truly pious, god fearing, charitable, openly loving people can't be saved. Your not God so don't judge like you were lest you be judged.

>>19400284
The new testament is written in greek. If jews want to learn about catholicis, they should come to Christ's Church. When I wanted to learn about Judaism I read Pirkei Avot- great book btw-, Duties of the Heart, mussar literature, hassidus and listened to many shiurim. I won't go to the Church to learn about Judaism.
Honestly Judaism is very interesting and I love some of the literature. It can be a beautiful culture sometimes, other times its disgusting. Same with people in the Church. We need to be able to realise that our similitudes are more important than our differences. The key to our communion is ironing out the differences and the similarities in our understanding of the Messiah and the messianic era. The key to this is Jesus statement that "His kingdom is not of this world."
My prayers are for all of you anons that the Spirit of peace and good will might descend on you all.
Catholics remember "He who does not know love does not know God." If your not willing to forgive those who sin against you your not doing the will of the Father.

>>19407841
>catholic
Didn't read you Hitler loving fuck. How does it feel to know that your kind isn't welcome in polite company without apologizing for your insane religions behavior

>>19399892
>with no religious agenda

>with no religious agenda

>with no religious agenda

>>19407927
problem, goy?

>>19407841
Fuck off tranny

>>19407876
>How does it feel to know that your kind isn't welcome in polite company without apologizing for your insane religions behavior

>>19408803
Fuck off tranny

>>19409100
>a proponent of a religion which explicitly rejects gender theory and the validity of "transgenderism" is a tranny

>>19407810
>Faith and works save you. Faith is not the same thing as religion.

There is a reason for the doctrine "No Salvation Outside the Church."

It follows necessarily upon the nature of the Church as the body of Christ. Christ is one; His spirit cannot be separated from His body.

>How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

>>“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it”

Source: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-there-really-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church [quoting CCC 846-48]

>>19409587
Catholic.com isn't a teaching authority. It's a lay epologist venture