/lit/ - Literature

>>19386803
Once I went to an Orthodox mass. Priest told me to go to Catholic church.

>>19387026
I’m sure.

the gay guy from San Francisco, what's his name, something Rose

>>19387146
I was honestly disappointed, because you don't need to be a skilled theologian in order to see that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has significant theological differencies.

Since they have separated, these differences started to grow larger over the centuries.
For example, I do love the Theotokos, but the Catholic emphasis on the subject is a bit over the line, creating an oddly almost narcisistic Mary imo.
It feels Orthodoxy is much more Christocentric.

>>19386803
Contact a priest and start attending Divine Liturgy on Sundays. For books, it’s worth reading both The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky, The Orthodox Study Bible, My Life in Christ by St. John of Kronstadt, and similar works.

>>19387168
Not OP but...

>Contact a priest and start attending Divine Liturgy on Sundays
Did that, twice. They said "Stay Catholic. I am busy for you."
Also no local churches, the closest one is 100km away from where I live. When I went there the Priest wanted to know if I had Levantine blood... (it was an ethnic church)

>For books, it’s worth reading both The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky, The Orthodox Study Bible, My Life in Christ by St. John of Kronstadt, and similar works.

Will do.

>>19387227
>Did that, twice. They said "Stay Catholic. I am busy for you."
It's a modernist priest it seems then as he doesn't care about the truth or joining people to Christ. You didn't lose anything.

>>19387227
As the other anon said, you are not losing anything by not going to that church. It’s quite sad that some of them have become no more than an ethnic enclave hostile to outsiders. I have to say though, this isn’t Orthodoxy, it’s that priest and his church. The church that I go to is luckily in English for everything including the liturgy and showed me great hospitality when I first began to show up. I wish I had some advice to offer you for the situation you are in.

>>19386803

Pic related has good books. For modern authors look up hieromartyr Daniel Sysoev's books, he has a lot for beginners and I think many of it is translated into English nowadays. I also really need to read Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, he is considered for canonization and is seen as one of the great modern theologians.

For theology:
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius. Short and good, accessible book about the core tenant of our faith.
Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus. Very good and deep book, if you understand it you see why all other theologies are false.

Also part of St. Gregory Palamas' triads about philosophy.
>A. Philosophy does not save
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Grigorij_Palama/the-triads/#0_14

>>19386803
idk

>>19387227
Good, fuck off. He realised you are a parasitic globohomist and are not worthy of joining a Church of Christ for LARP points.

Beat off and kiddy fiddle in your cucktolicks churck

>>19387308
>joining a Church of Christ for LARP points.
How can you know what he is interested in Orthodoxy for?

>>19387308
>a Church of Christ
>a
>implying there is more than one

>>19387151
Seraphim Rose

>>19387315
cause hes on 4chan
just google it

>>19387390
Again, assuming anyone who is on 4chan is LARPing is silly. Some people actually want to learn about Orthodox Christianity

>>19387390
>anonymously discussing Christianity
>somehow larping

if I wanted to LARP I would be surfacing on instagram and reddit, posing with icons and stuff. My interest is legit.

>>19386803

>>19386803
Pic related is an interesting work. It is *on* Saint Isaac rather than by him, but it has numerous, numerous long quotes by him peppered throughout the work. He is rightly considered a saint, but he has some controversial opinions, such everyone being saved eventually, and that hell is more like a purgatory than eternal. He places a great emphasis on God’s love and mercy. A good perspective to read, though I do not know if what he says is true.

>>19387632
>such everyone being saved eventually, and that hell is more like a purgatory than eternal
That's what the spirit of the bugman wants you to believe. They also say he was a Nestorian heretic.

>>19387308 (You)

>>19387638
It’s certainly not a doctrine that I think should be taught as likely by any means. There are plenty of references to the eternity of hell, and these should be taken seriously. Supporters of universal reconciliation like to quote things like 1 Timothy 2:4, which says that God our Savior “...wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” This is true, but the doors to hell are locked from within, it’s all about how *they* respond to God. Some people will choose to reject God eternally, even if they were given the opportunity to be delivered from hell.

>>19387632
>controversial
Those are straight up condemned multiple times in different ecumenical councils, it's like saying Arianism is a controversial opinion. This alone is good reason to believe a saint didn't teach these things.
It's similar to the situation where modernists like to think St. Gregory of Nyssa taught "universalism" when he explicitly teaches eternal gehenna, and according to St. Maximus the "universalist" passages actually teach purgation of souls in Hades and the Orthodox understanding of apokatastasis (restoration of nature).

I personally believe it's part of the plan of the beast to make people distrust the church fathers and ultimately go into choosing their own faith. I've seen many Russians fly off into insane heresies because they hold similar popular academic views.

>>19387682
>This is true, but the doors to hell are locked from within, it’s all about how *they* respond to God
This. Universalism is heavily tied essentially to monothelitism, where the real human will is seen itself as an evil which will be broken down in the restoration.

>>19386803

>>19386803
Florenksi and Bulgakov

>>19387704
Kek, imagine thinking this. The majority of early Christians were universalists, the belief in an eternal Hell is an aberration of emotionally stunted freaks.

>>19389039
>The majority of early Christians were universalists
Nope

>>19386803
any recs for where to start with Florensky?
>>19387632
any recs of primary works of isaac? also any recs in general on the history of the church of the east?

>NOOOOOOOOO YOU CANT DO THEOLOGY!! THEOLOGY STOP WITH JOHN OF DAMASCUS !!!!

For any converts here, how long did it take before you were admitted as a catechumen?

>>19387704
>>19387682
>>19387638
If you don't think universalist saints understood this, then you havent read them and don't even understand the what universalism even means

>>19387026
Fear of this is why I don't go to any church.

>>19389776
orthodox churches in large american cities are either colonized by former evangelicals (larpers) or are ethnic social clubs

I am interested in Orthodoxy, but I want to avoid both trying to dive in too deep too quickly by ordering the collected works of every saint who ever lived as well as the LARPy trad based redpilled attitude that some have when they approach it. The former seems like a great way to end up in over my head, trying to interpret works of theology I don't really understand and maybe getting burnt out prematurely, and the latter would probably lead me to eventually abandon the faith in search of an even more based reactionary fashy trad redpilled sigma male church while missing the whole point of going to church in the first place.

>>19389889
It sounds like you have the right attitude. The last thing we need is Orthodoxy getting filled with retards who think that it is “based” for political reasons. If you want good introductory works check out the short books “The Orthodox Church” and “The Orthodox Way” by Kallistos Ware

>>19389774
>universalist saints
it's like saying "nestorian saints" lol

>>19389756
>Omg! So much this! Theology is a developing field! We need to see if it matches up with the empirical data and what the latest Science said!

>>19389931
have you collected them all yet fellow based orthobro?
Im about to hit 151 and LEVEL UP

I am ethnic Russian living in Canada, and I am cringed by “based” “red pilled” Anglo-Saxonsconverte. They talk about sex, gays, penetration all the time.

>>19389627
Crack your bible please, there are no references to eternal hell. It's a western Christian myth.

>>19390816
Daniel 12.2-4:
>Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
“Everlasting contempt”

Matthew 25.46:
>”Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10
>And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Universal salvation is a cope.

>>19390901
Hyperbolic language, typical of a sadistic hell believing fanatic to take it literally.

1 Corinthians 15:28
>Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO PAUL REALLY MEANT ALL IN SOME

>>19391146
>The bug man doesn't know that the sinner's experience of God being in him is that of torment
Very strange idea to pick St. Paul of all people to push your deviancy.

>>19387287
>Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
Good luck finding this for less than 500 bucks

Reminder that Palamism is polytheism

>>19391452
>>The bug man doesn't know that the sinner's experience of God being in him is that of torment
its almost like thats exactly what universalists say

>>19391452
based loving God being the cause of your eternal suffering with no hope of healing you, just for shits and gigs

>>19391562
Universalists say that all will at some time experience God in a positive way. This is a lie of the snake.
>>19391587
Rather because you loved evil more than God and aren't able to accept him. Only good will exist in the eschaton so you couldnt run from Him to the sins for comfort now.

>>19391534
>created grace
lol, this is the real polytheism.
also daily reminder that no real distinction between God's will and essence (actus purus) means creation is eternal.

>>19391597
>only good will exist in the eschaton
except the endless suffering of millions that didnt win the game of cosmic goodboy points
But thats actually based & Redpilled! And it doesn't really exist! Cause only good will Exist! Their suffering if good because its actually God! God is suffering! God is Good! And thats a Good thing!

>>19391602
>Doesn't understand created grace
Small brain. Grace effects a change in the soul of the recipient.

Uncreated Grace = God communicating Himself

Created Grace = The change effected in the soul of the recipient

If you don't acknowledge created grace you deny any change occurs in the soul of a person who receives the Holy Spirit and thus you deny Theosis.

>>19391602
>also daily reminder that no real distinction between God's will and essence (actus purus) means creation is eternal.
God exists outside of time your statement is meaningless. Time is part of creation so speaking of creation in temporal terms is a meaningless exercise.

>>19387227
Sorry for you OP, I fortunately found a very available priest and community very close to me. I contacted the priest on whatsapp after getting his number online and he just told me to come to mass.

>>19391082
>it’s just hyperbolic because it just is, okay???
Embarrassing

>>19391490
That book is actually very affordable. His evolution book is the one that is ridiculously expensive. I hope it gets a new printing run

>>19392822
>Talk of harvests, ovens with chaff and wheat, robbers, thieves in the night etc
>All metaphor of course! Parables!
>Burning fires, great pain
>Ah yes, these will LITERALLY last FOREVER!
Hell believers are something else

>>19391490
its back in print (for) now, got it from bookdepository for like $15

>>19393236
Even if hell is not a literal lake of fire, these verses still point to the eternity of the punishment. Unless you are to claim that the promises of eternal life are merely ‘metaphors’ as well

>>19390816
>eternal
As in it lasts forever
>hell
The place for the dead

>>19393377
>Eternity of punishment
An oxymoron. The purpose of punishment is to change the behavior of the punished.

Eternal punishment and eternal life simply mean that both of them occur in the age to come. Punishment is temporary, life will persist perpetually.

>>19393493
>Eternal punishment and eternal life simply mean that both of them occur in the age to come. Punishment is temporary, life will persist perpetually.
You could easily say the opposite because it would be just as ad hoc

>less than 24 hours until Divine Liturgy
You are going, aren’t you, anons?

>>19389991
are you a mongolian, is that why you posted an asian because you were compelled while thinking about "ethnic russians"

>>19387308
damn dude, if you really feel that way then you're Christian for the wrong reasons yourself. What kind of Christian thinks "yeah I'm sure Christ would have told a curious soul to fuck off, then called them a parasite. I should do that." You have a lot of malice, people like you shouldn't be trying to gatekeep the religion while seemingly representing everything that it's against.

>>19393521
Wrong, it's calling using the reason that God gave you.

>>19393561
Yeah, and when eternal life is juxtaposed with eternal torment, it’s easy to see that both are meaning the exact same thing. I understand that you may wish that all be saved, but I do not think that this is scriptural or a teaching of the church.

>>19393601
Your understanding is inconsistent with the entirety of scripture. You might as well become a protestant at this point.

>>19393630
Nice argument, bro

>>19393642
No point arguing with someone who believes that a God who is Love itself expressly creates some of his children to suffer perpetually. Anyone who believes that is a weird person and not worth talking to.

>>19393668
I don’t believe in double predestination so I don’t think God has created anyone expressly to go to hell. People go to hell based on their own freely chosen decisions. I believe that St. Basil once wrote that the evils of hell are not caused by God, but by us. It might even be said that thinking of hell as ‘punishment’ is incorrect, but rather that it is merely a state of our soul that we ourselves bring ourselves into. The love of God will be a torment to those who have not prepared themselves to receive it. I can hope that eventually all are saved eventually, and that hell will end, but this is far from certain. Some may never be, and this fits with the scriptural references that have already been provided ITT.

>>19393724
If you believe in a hell of unending punishment, you believe in double predestination. The two go together.

>>19393758
Nonsense

>>19393525
For the first time, actually.

god isn't real
grow up

>>19393889
It’s a very beautiful experience to see for the first time. Link related might help you, I know it helped me:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/frederica/12-things

>>19394453
Thanks for the read, anon.
When I go will I just kind of stand awkwardly at the back and watch or do they try to show inquirers what to do during the service?

>>19394891
>When I go will I just kind of stand awkwardly at the back and watch or do they try to show inquirers what to do during the service?
When I first went to a Divine Liturgy I sat way in the back row and planned to try to be as invisible as possible, but it wasn’t long before people who attend regularly started coming up to me and my friend. Some nice old lady said something like “I know you guys are trying to hide in the back, but back there you won’t be able to see any of what is going on”. She recommended that we move up to the second row, and that’s what we did, and really it was a good recommendation and I would second it—standing in the back I would have not been able to see a lot. You really don’t have to worry about doing much either, really. During my first visit I just stood respectfully and made the sign of the cross when other people did and tried to just take in the liturgy. It was sort of hard to follow at first and it took a while to sink in for me afterwards, admittedly. It was really different from anything I had seen before growing up as a Methodist. Obviously you won’t be able to partake in the Eucharist, but that wasn’t really too awkward. I just watched as it happened. Afterwards a lot of these places have a social time afterwards that might be good to stick around at for a bit, especially if you have questions. If the people at the church you are attending are hospitable, many would likely approach you. It’s also a good time to find the priest if you have any questions. I didn’t do this the first time I went though, I ended up going back the next week and only then staying after.

This might have been a bit disjointed but hopefully some of it will help.

>>19394967
No, it's plenty helpful. I'll just be going by myself and I've never even met anyone who was Orthodox before, so knowing what I'm going into is useful.
Any other good info you have for a guy who has read a lot about this stuff online but nothing else? Little cultural differences or values that I might not expect?

>>19394997
It would probably depend on what sort of church you’re actually going to when it comes to culture stuff. For example, in my area, there is a Greek Orthodox Church, a Serbian Orthodox Church, a Macedonian Orthodox, an Ethiopian Tawahedo Church, and a Coptic Orthodox Church—I have never been to any of these, and I imagine that they all have little cultural quirks among them, and the services might not even be in English in some of them. I tried to avoid that like the plague in looking for a church to inquire into, personally, and luckily was able to find a parish where the liturgy was in English, the priest had no accent, and mostly everyone there was just like me. If where you are going has any specific ethnic designation maybe just look around a bit online or look on /r/OrthodoxChristianity (I know) to see if anyone has asked any questions similar to what you may have about similar churches.

Really though, it’s just something to experience. Having read that link I posted above and similar things online, you’re probably pretty well set. If anyone comes up to you there too you’ll probably even be even better set. I’ll just say, it’s a different experience than just reading about Orthodoxy, I’ll say that. It’s interesting to see how it is in real life. I didn’t know what to think of it after my first Divine Liturgy, but by the following Tuesday I had made up my mind to go back.

>>19387287
Im Romanian and can vouch for Dumitru Staniloae. He also translated the Philokalia into Romanian. Im very dubious of Rose though.

>>19395681
>Im very dubious of Rose though.
Why so? Have you read him?

>>19395698
His belief that the tollhouses are literal and his background as an orientalist kinda guy make me skeptical. God forbid maybe hes a good man and I am just judging poorly. I would still recommend you stick to more authoritative/ calssic texts in the beginning. Im just starting to read more and go to church weekly myself. Ive only finished the The Pentateuch and New Testament and Psalms. Kalistos Ware is good, I read his Orthodox Church book and found it very useful in house concise it was.
Good luck on your journey and dont forget to pray aplenty!

>creepy Oriental blood magic
AAAAAAHHHHHH GET THE FUCK OUT GET THE FUCK OUT YOU GAY WEAKLINGS

COSMIC EGGS!

CANNABIS!

WAR!

COME ON ARYANS, BE BASED AGAIN!

>>19395785
>Im just starting to read more and go to church weekly myself. Ive only finished the The Pentateuch and New Testament and Psalms. Kalistos Ware is good, I read his Orthodox Church book and found it very useful in how concise it was.
It sounds like you are the Romanian version of me right now, haha.

Regarding toll-houses, admittedly I have not read Rose’s book on the soul after death yet which apparently goes over these topics. I have only read ‘God’s Revelation to the Human Heart’ and his book ‘Nihilism’ and found them to be good reads. There are a few things from lives of various saints such as St. Antony which seems sort of like the toll-house idea, but I don’t attach to much importance to the concept, I guess.

>Good luck on your journey and dont forget to pray aplenty!
Thank you, anon, the same goes for you!

>>19395079
Thanks for all the info, anon. My area only has Antiochan churches, but there are a lot of converts based on the local websites so I hope things will go well. I hope you have a nice Sunday tomorrow.

>>19393601
Yeah they are the same, the eternal punishment is merely the light of God which for the unrepentant is as a blazing fire.

>>19395888
I’ve heard that Antiochan churches are very convert-friendly in general, so it sounds like you won’t have many issues. If the thread is still up it’d be cool to get your thoughts tomorrow! Have a good Sunday, anon

>>19395079
The Ethiopian and Coptic churches are miaphysite, which is a different kettle of fish doctrinally. Lots of fasting too. You'll want to make your choice between the Greeks and the Slavs.

>>19395921
>God is incapable of educating the unrepentant in the afterlife
Blasphemous

>>19396022
You’re quite quick to accuse anonymous posters of grevious sins baselessly

>>19396064
The poster accused God of being non-ommipotent and of abandoning some of his creations to Satan, so the charge wasn't baseless

>>19396108
It is baseless
>and of abandoning some of his creations to Satan
Satan will be tormented in hell himself

>>19396121
You hate the true God, luckily God is loving enough that he will have mercy on you and save you anyway.

>>19396129
First you accuse another of blasphemy and then you accuse me of hating God. Wew lad. Sort yourself out

>>19396154
If you believe in a hell of eternal punishment, you hate God, along with many of your fellow men.

>>19396194
>accusing millions of Christians and massive swathes of the church of hating God
Yikes, I’ll pray for you tonight

>>19396194
Imagine accusing some of the fathers of the early church of hating God.

Ive been reading Augustine's De Trinitate, and he basically outlines sophiology in it. Dont understand why its so controversial

>>19396217
Self righteous Cathlocuck poster.

>>19396225
>church fathers
You just love worshipping men and false gods don’t you?

>>19396251
I unironically will, you are the one who is declaring that the vast, vast majority of Christians literally HATE God

>>19396260
Different poster you idiot. Fucking moron boomers on this board.

>>19396248
Orthodoxy basically ossified after they lost Constantinople and lost their ability to operate as a single unified Church.

>>19387327
> Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

>>19396248
If you poke enough this makes Augustine a heretic too hehe

>>19386803
Good thread

>>19396258
Islam is down the hall

>>19396217
P R E L E S T

>>19393724
>I believe that St. Basil once wrote that the evils of hell are not caused by God
I think this applies to hades only, where the people are being tormented by unrealized sinful inclination right now, like the rich man in the Lazarus parable whose tongue was burning because of his love for food. Later they will be burned by God only because they won't even have inclination towards anything created, but can only see God who will burn them because their will is perpetually trying to move into nonexistence. This is what's meant that all evil will be destroyed, the universalist thinks the human will itself is also evil so will be overwritten. It's just usual gnostic nonsense.

>>19396802
>https://www.vatican.va
>We and Muslims worship the same God
>Also the Hindus

>>19395785
>His belief that the tollhouses are literal
He believes they are real, which all Orthodox do, in that there is a particular judgment of the soul which occurs after death. Tollhouse language is just a metaphor for the real experience, just like judicial language is metaphor for Christ did on the cross, the prayer of the sixth hour says that He tore up the (paper-contract) debt of our sins. There isn't a literalistic debt Christ pays off with His sacrifice, but there is the reality that He died in place of us and took the curse of death to free us from death.

>>19387153
A lot of stuff just got lost in translation with Roman Catholicism. It's all become a cutout of the Orthodox tradition. Plus the pope worship, which is just retarded.

>>19398588
What? You actually believe in hell and hades? Anon, don't you see how silly all this shit is?

>>19395820
>abandoning our ancestor's traditions to get tangled in the dogmatics of a neo-Judaism and live a life of servility to YHWH

What the fuck is wrong with christcucks

>>19398719
Yes, I do actually try to trust Our Lord Jesus Christ.

>>19398728
>ancestor's traditions
Praying to demons is an evil tradition, truth is more important than ancestry. Anyway, our oldest common ancestors are Noah and Adam, who did pray to the Holy Trinity and didn't make sacrifice to some strange god.

>>19398778
>our oldest common ancestors are Noah and Adam
I cannot believe how delusional you are. Wake the fuck up. You're tracing your lineage to legendary characters from Jewish scripture. Yahweh is a pitiful, lesser god who billions of people have been tricked into believing.

>>19398767
Jesus doesn't even say anything about hell besides Gehenna.

>>19398832
Jesus descended into hell (Hades) to save the people who believed in Him and were waiting for His salvation, both Jews and gentiles like Job, Adam, Noah and others we don't know about. He also speaks about it directly.

I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
- Revelation 1:18

Gehenna is the final lake of fire all which is yet to come.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
- Revelation 20:13-15

>>19398864
You're using ancient texts as if they have any actual meaning or truth behind it. I might as well pull quotes from Hesiod about how the world works.

>>19398828
>Yahweh is a pitiful, lesser god
Christ is Yahweh.

These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
- John 12:41

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD [יְהֹוָ֣ה] of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”
- Isaiah 6:1-3

>>19398877
These ancient texts have the same Holy Spirit breathing in them as in the Gospel and in the works Jesus Christ did and does to this day.

>>19398886
Says who? The texts themselves? This is a circular argument. The holy spirit is barely even in the OT. Much of Christianity is repurposed Hellenistic thought crammed into Judaic cosmology. The god of the OT isn't the same as the NT -- the OT one has all these commands and wrath and big works upon the world and is the patron god of the Israelites, the NT god barely says anything and is much closer to the Theos of ancient Greek traditions. It's a fucking mess.

>>19398864
Why did Christ save the people in Hades after they died but He can't save sinners after they die now?

>>19398881
So an ancient author made it so that one text quotes another text, so what? You realize how easy this is to do, right? The Gospel authors just went through and tried to quote the OT as much as possible to make it seem authentically connected.

>>19398911
It's the same really, He can only save those who repented. Repentance involves not sacrificing to idols/demons, believing in the One God and holding to the covenants made with God. And repentance is only possible in life, because human will is normally embodied and can only change while in this state.

For the post-flood time for example there was the Noahic covenant, it was the normative law for gentiles up until Christ (Genesis 9). "So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.”" Now there is only the New Covenant established in Christ' blood, all other laws and covenants are fulfilled in Him.

>>19386803
Go to youtube and watch video made by based orthobros who fight cringe degeneracy

>>19398909
>The holy spirit is barely even in the OT.
Embarrassing. The entire Trinity is found all throughout the OT.
Genesis 1:2-
>Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Wisdom of Solomon 9:17-18
>Who has known Your counsel,
>Unless You have given him wisdom >And sent him Your Holy Spirit from on high?
>And thus the paths of those on earth were made straight,
>And mankind was taught was pleases You;
>So They were saved by wisdom.
The entire Trinity is revealed here. “Your counsel” – God the Father, who gives His Son, wisdom, and sends the Holy Spirit.

Zechariah 4:6
>And he answered me and spoke to me, saying, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying ‘Not by mighty power nor by strength, but by Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.

Judges 14:19
>Then the Spirit of the Lord leapt upon him, and he leapt down to Ashkelon and struck thirty of their men...


>the NT god barely says anything and is much closer to the Theos of ancient Greek traditions.
Jesus *is* God, and he speaks all througout the NT, and the OT and even appears as the Angel of the Lord. Who was it that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai. The Son of God. Not the Father. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshiped a trinitarian God.

>>19399167
>he leapt down
Went down, whoops

>>19399167
Who cares if the trinity is in the OT, it's just a vapid theological development based on ancient texts. You pull all these quotes as if they mean anything.

>>Who was it that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai

Fan fiction. I would rather get my legs blown off in Afghanistan than live for one second in your delusional mind.

>>19399167
>Jesus *is* God, and he speaks all througout the NT, and the OT and even appears as the Angel of the Lord. Who was it that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai. The Son of God. Not the Father. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshiped a trinitarian God.

>>19399189
>it's just a vapid theological development
You are being a mouthpiece for satan, anon. Blaspheming the Living God like this.

>>19399189
>Who cares if the trinity is in the OT, it's just a vapid theological development based on ancient texts
No it’s not, multiplicitly in the Godhead is present even in Genesis, bro. This is indicated in numerous places such as Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, etc. Many Jews understood this. Philo identified the Word with the Angel of the Lord himself, and he was not Christian.

>Fan fiction.
Luke 24:27 — “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.”

Exodus 24:10-11
>and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Exodus 33:20
>But,” He said, “you cannot see My face, for no one may see Me and live.”
‘Face’ refers to the essence of God here, as already in Exodus 24 they say the God of Israel standing before them.

1 John 1:18
>No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 14:19
>Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

So if we have numerous theophanies of God in the Old Testament, and numerous appearances of the Angel of the Lord who is directly identified as ‘God’ by those who see Him in scripture, and are told that no-one may see the ‘face’ of God, it goes to say that every appearance of God is the Son even in the Old Testament. Jesus told the disciples that he who has seen Him has seen the Father. No one has seen the Father, ergo every appearance of God in a human form is the Son. The entire OT is about Jesus

>>19399189
>>19399270
As an addendum, why do you think Jesus sits on the mountain to give his Sermon on the Mount? Because it is essentially a recapitulation of God giving the law to Moses on Sinai, except that instead of there being a dark cloud around the mountain, God in the flesh delivers the beatitudes to the crowd assembled. Here He delivers what is the spirit of the law, even saying that He has not come to destroy it, but to fulfill it.

>>19386803
Anon, I'm sure you're coming at this with good intentions but I can't stress how cringe it is to align yourself with Orthodox Christianity if you were not born into it. Maybe you are the exception, but Orthodoxy is virtually nonexistent IRL, yet it gets far more attention than Catholicism online. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think the arguments for Orthodoxy are very poor, and if you look into the history and where disputes come from, Orthodoxy is the result of political disputes that end up contradicting Biblical truth. The actual circles of Orthodoxy that exist off of the internet are almost entirely a result of cultural compliance, rather than strict theological discourse.

TLDR: Just become Catholic OP

>>19399304
>Because it is essentially a recapitulation of God giving the law to Moses on Sinai
Also the transfiguration is a very clear sing of this, with Moses himself being present at the mount with Jesus.

>>19399304
>>19399333
Of course a religion that wants to base itself in the old one would reuse figures from the old's texts. Doesn't reusing scenes from the OT in the NT suggest that this is all made up? And how is it surprising that a religion based on Judaic theological speculation uses Judaic theological ideas?

>>19399310
>noo you should stick to the faith of your ancestors! don't look at the truth! you can be saved outside the body of Christ its all fine!
Literal pagan-tier argumentation. I would at least have some respect if you believed the Latin church was the only path to salvation.

>>19396258
The writings of the Church Fathers were inspired by the same Holy Spirit as the biblical canon. Stop being an enemy of God's true Church

>>19399310
I mean the Russians weren't always Orthodox. Neither were the Greeks, for that matter. They all converted at some point, so it shouldn't be an issue for anyone else to.

But I agree that it's cringe to become Orthodox if you're a westerner, especially American, but it's not terrible if you aren't LARPing about it.

>>19399367
>Doesn't reusing scenes from the OT in the NT suggest that this is all made up?
On the contrary, if the NT was just something made up there would be no continuity with the OT and you should rightfully reject it as innovation, by continuity I mean deeper fulfillments of the OT, not just quoting scenes like the Quran does. The Quran actually falls under your argument pretty well since it cannot explain absolutely anything in the OT, like what even is the Messiah and about the eternal priesthood.

>>19399385
>it's cringe to become Orthodox if you're a westerner
>it's cringe to want salvation if you're a westerner
Western people are also made in God's image.

>>19399374
>The writings of the Church Fathers were inspired by the same Holy Spirit as the biblical canon.
... according to the Church Fathers. Charlatans.

>>19399310
>but Orthodoxy is virtually nonexistent IRL
Is this a joke? moron american

>>19399310
>virtually nonexistent IRL
>IRL
Your neighbourhood in America is not the whole of "real life", anon.

>>19399389
What the hell are you talking about. Anyone can write something in continuity with an older text. Especially if they're just quoting passages most of the time, blatantly inserting figures, or just redoing scenes.

>>19399367
>Doesn't reusing scenes from the OT in the NT suggest that this is all made up?
No. I think it’s the other way around, too. What we see in the OT are prefigurations and types of what we see when Jesus comes in the flesh. Much of the Bible is forward-looking, not backward-looking. The prophetic dimension of the Bible is one of the most important. Abraham is told that all nations of the earth will be blessed through his offspring, but this doesn’t happen during his life. It doesn’t happen until over a millennia later, if not two. Even Paul in Galatians 3:23-25 frames the law of Moses in a forward-looking way, a sort of preparation for Christ. The prophecy of Daniel 9.24-27 places the messiah and the end of sacrifices nearly 500 years into the future. All of these came true, and with hindset, as was revealed in Luke 24, we can see that it was all about Jesus, all pointing towards Him.

>>19386803
The Bible.

>>19399373
Thats not what I'm saying. Almost every actual Orthodox Christian you could actually encounter irl is religious because they were born into the faith. I am no one to judge legitimate faith, and I have no problem with that. My problem is that Orthodoxy has been co-oped by Chan culture "alt right" autism because its seen as based and trad or whatever. This is a horrible way to approach religion unless you feel you've had a genuine revelation or something.

>>19399385
Oh yeah, legitimate conversion isn't a problem. And yes I'm sure many people who started these legacies converted through coercion ect, but my point is just that being born into a religion is often a convenient path of faith because of how instilled the belief is through such a strong familial and cultural force. 4chan Orthodox converts are usually acting with ill will.

>>19399403
>>19399410
Orthodoxy is almost nonexistant in every part of the world aside from some of eastern Europe. If you aren't from Moldova, Greece, George, Armenia, Serbia, Ukraine, or Bulgaria it is extremely unlikely that you would have even been exposed to an Orthodox Christian community, let alone in to one of their services. So yes, it is literally a larp for most Chan copeists if you think about the demographics.

>>19399447
>My problem is that Orthodoxy has been co-oped by Chan culture "alt right" autism because its seen as based and trad or whatever.
I’m not seeing much of that in this thread, nor do I see it much on /lit/ in general. If those people show up at an actual Orthodox Church, they won’t be there for long, because clearly the Church doesn’t support their Satanic ideas. The same stuff is done with Catholics online, and they’re arguably even more cancerous

>>19399416
>Anyone can write something in continuity with an older text
Not in a non-contradictory and coherent way. The Quran for example can't do it even if it's written by a very clever demon.

>>19399447
Subsaharan Africa has 15% of the world's Orthodox population? How the fuck

>>19399447
>4chan Orthodox converts are usually acting with ill will.

You know I was gonna say that's harsh but once I think about it you're probably right. Most people who join Orthodoxy are just larping and end up ingesting and regurgitating dogmatic arguments - they could convert to Islam or be a staunch atheist or Marxist and do the same thing.

Or they take on Orthodoxy as superficially as most western Buddhists take on Buddhism.

>>19399447
>My problem is that Orthodoxy has been co-oped by Chan culture
I don't know how deluded you have to be to say this, but 4chan is not a major factor in the life of Orthodox people. Most do not know about its existence.

Also, to say that Orthodoxy can be "coopted" by the forces of evil is a direct contradiction of Christ's promise that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

>>19399447
>legitimate conversion isn't a problem
Who are you to judge the "legitimacy" of a conversion? Literally never seen an Orthodox inquirer on here with "evil intent".

>>19399470
>because clearly the Church doesn’t support their Satanic ideas. The same stuff is done with Catholics online, and they’re arguably even more cancerous

What're you doing here, then? I don't think any truly religious person would be arguing online. Wouldn't your time be better spent in hesychasm?

>>19399481
>Subsaharan Africa has 15% of the world's Orthodox population? How the fuck
https://youtu.be/_9bxpfXK07g?t=224

>>19399487
>end up ingesting and regurgitating dogmatic arguments
This assumes that the dogmatic arguments are false or wrong.
>Or they take on Orthodoxy as superficially as most western Buddhists take on Buddhism.
That's usually a problem among the non-Orthodox who don't really know the differences in theology and think it's all the same thing you can mesh somehow into a perennialistic religion. If anything, converts usually have a better understanding of the issues than people who have been born into it, because they had to start from zero.

>>19399493
>What're you doing here, then?
Discussing Orthodoxy for a bit while relaxing. I have the best discussions about religion on /lit/. Surprisingly enjoyable.

>I don't think any truly religious person would be arguing online.
I don’t see why not. I don’t think getting in flame-wars and spending hours throwing insults back and forth and doing other useless things is productive, but spending time here and talking with people who answer back in good faith can be productive, especially if we can both learn something.

>>19399481
This contextualizes how nonexistent it is. Large pop of Africa, so if a missionary is kind of successful, a large amount of people will be converts within 80 years or so. If the general population can be challenged that easily the lack of presence is extremely noticeable.

>>19399487
Yeah I agree. I don't think these people are malicious, they are just confused and feel lost like all of us. Why grapple with the complexities of the papacy and the more expansive history of Catholicism when Orthodoxy provides answers for modern problems without requiring a complex investigating of seeming contradictions? Islam would be better as well because faith is less vague, and the rules are extremely explicit.

>>19399488
I'm sorry was I not clear enough? When I say its being co-opted, I don't mean the literal Church is. I'm sure holy officials don't care about the internet. If you look at who talks about Orthodoxy online, it is mostly chan culture people though, and the common thread is that they are generally right leaning and disgusted with modern culture. Orthodoxy is just a convenient outlet for these people because its easy to LARP as.

When I say "legitimate" conversion I'm not being specific. Conversion indicates a literal conversion of your beliefs and lifestyle. I hate to say it bro, but most of these internet Orthobros are ex Cafeteria Catholics or Prots. They cycle through ideologies and religions because they struggle with identity. No one is perfect, but I'm going to be honest with how I see things.

>>19399476
There's tons of contradictions in the gospels themselves, including the nativity narratives. Matthew says the birth happened under Herod the Great, while Luke says it happened during the census of Quirinius, a decade later. If you just look at the two narratives side by side they're fundamentally different.

In one gospel account, he carries the cross alone. In another someone else carries it. He makes his post-resurrection appearance to different people depending on the gospel. The details of the resurrection itself are contradictory.

>>19399521
>Islam would be better as well because faith is less vague, and the rules are extremely explicit.
Imagine shilling Islam

>>19399397
I'll pray for you Prot, I only hope your eyes are opened before it's too late

>>19399545
Many people look at Christianity for immediate political relief. Islam is better suited for this, and the mysticism is far less confusing.

>>19399551
Thanks for the loving threat, schizo

>>19399554
>Islam is better suited for this, and the mysticism is far less confusing
It’s about truth, not how easy it is to understand. Islam is a false religion, and clearly one.

>>19399554
> the mysticism is far less confusing.

Good point. The hard unitarianism of Islam makes the whole "divine union" thing pretty simple.

>>19399521
>generally right leaning and disgusted with modern culture
That's just a natural consequence of following their beliefs. You're attributing the wrong causation here, at least it's not the case for most people I have seen on the internet. "Alt-right" types can't really be Orthodox for long, because it contradicts their philosophy inherently.
>ex Cafeteria Catholics or Prots
This is irrelevant. St. Paul was an ex-pharisee who persecuted Christians and he is one of the greatest saints. Christ calls all sorts of sinners to the light.
>because they struggle with identity
This is natural for the non-Orthodox, because Orthodoxy is what humanity was ultimately created for. Anyone else will experience struggle in their identity in some form or the other, in modernity it just takes more specific forms because of the uprooting of everything traditional.

>>19399575
>Orthodoxy is what humanity was ultimately created for

>>19399544
>a decade later
>implying modern history is more trustworthy than the Gospel

>fundamentally different
>implying all difference entails contradiction.

>He makes his post-resurrection appearance to different people
>implying there somehow needs to be only one appearance?

>he carries the cross alone. In another someone else carries it.
>implying Christ has to always carry it alone, and implying someone helped him on the path means he was never carrying it

>The details of the resurrection itself are contradictory.
Nah, St. John Chrysostom explains the different people heading to Christ's tomb. It wasn't just one singular event, like the moneylenders episode where Christ removed them from the temple. The Gospels record different views on the same events, otherwise it would just be a singular text. The non-Christian only has unprovable presuppositions he assumes in an ad-hoc way to justify his unbelief.

>>19399600
>>19399575
>Orthodoxy is what humanity was ultimately created for

>>19399600
Yes, Orthodoxy is about union with the Triune God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who created the world and humans out of His excess of love, so that we may partake in Him. Any other goal humans construct for themselves is false.

>>19399602
>the moneylenders episode where Christ removed them from the temple
So did this happen at the beginning of his ministry, like John says, or near the end, like the synoptics say?

>>19399607
Are you partaking in him right now?

>>19399611
>or
Silly presupposition. It is both, it happened two times that we know of.

>>19399625
You already said
>It wasn't just one singular event, like the moneylenders episode

>>19399636
He’s saying in that post that it wasn’t one episode

>>19399568
If someone genuinely finds truth with Orthodoxy out of nowhere, with potentially no Orthodox churches within a 50 mile radius of them, then good for them. Unfortunately internet inspired conversion for trendy religions make skeptical.

>>19399571
Yep, and it ties neatly into the hard line political rules of the faith. Compare that against Catholicism where a lot of the famous female mystics describe divine relations in heavily erotic accounts. Relatively hard to interpret comparatively haha.

>>19399575
If this is misattribution, why would Orthodoxy become really popular online with people who have no cultural basis for being drawn to it? I question most Orthodox converts in the same way with Buddhist shills like John Cage. Is the religion an outlet for your rebellious feelings, or does it truly come from a place of good intentions? Because there isn't a very understandable reasoning beyond Orthodoxy having a "punk" attitude online compared to Catholicism because you're rebelling against the papacy.

Yes St Paul was a convert who dedicated his life to Christ. Internet theologians will cycle between three religions within five years often.

>This is natural for the non-Orthodox, because Orthodoxy is what humanity was ultimately created for. Anyone else will experience struggle in their identity in some form or the other, in modernity it just takes more specific forms because of the uprooting of everything traditional.
This is my major problem with Orthodoxy. This doesn't make sense. If Orthodoxy is "trve" Christianity, why is is that once you've rejected the papacy this is the doctrine that ends up coming out
>On morals, the Orthodox churches are unclear on divorce. Non-Chalcedonian churches generally disallow remarriage, whereas the Chalcedonians — for some unknown reason — will allow three remarriages with all spouses living, but never four

Orthodoxy is trad Protestantism. If you're outside the culture it just appears you're following an online trend because like 4 hours of reading illuminates the inconsistencies with Orthodox Christianity from a fundamental level.

>>19399636
Yeah it's what the other anon said. Many so-called contradictions are explaining different time-frames which the atheist simply assumes to be the same because it fits with the narrative and is more convenient to him.

>>19399659
>Unfortunately internet inspired conversion for trendy religions make skeptical.
I don’t think Orthodoxy is ‘trendy’, any more than Catholicism. There’s literally nothing wrong with someone getting interested in Orthodox Christianity from the Internet in an age when massive amounts of information are available at our fingertips, more than ever before, opening up many new opportunities to explore the different spiritual traditions of the world.

>why would Orthodoxy become really popular online with people who have no cultural basis for being drawn to it?
You’re operating on the presupposition here that Orthodoxy is somehow *inherently* ethnic, which is a lie, and proof that you’ve never been to an Orthodox Church in your life. Some of them are indeed predominantly ethnic, but others, even here in America, are filled with normal Americans from many different racial and ethnic backgrounds.

>>19399659
>why would Orthodoxy become really popular online with people who have no cultural basis for being drawn to it
>why would Orthodoxy become really popular in Rome with gentiles who have no Jewish cultural basis for being drawn to it
Because it is the truth, and the human heart naturally seeks the truth.

>>19399699
>There’s literally nothing wrong with someone getting interested in Orthodox Christianity from the Internet in an age when massive amounts of information are available at our fingertips,

There is because they would quickly find out that it has little religious basis compared to Catholicism, and that the disagreements stem primarily from politics and not theology.

>You’re operating on the presupposition here that Orthodoxy is somehow *inherently* ethnic, which is a lie

No but in practice it is almost exclusively cultural.

> and proof that you’ve never been to an Orthodox Church in your life

I grew up going to parochial Catholic grade school and we had many Greek Orthodox students because they didn't have a large enough population for their own schools. I've been to three different services and unsurprisingly across the East coast of the US, and unsurprisingly it was almost exclusively Greek Americans with long familial legacies of Orthodoxy. I wouldn't be surprised if I was one of a couple of people who have actually been to services in this thread.

>Because it is the truth, and the human heart naturally seeks the truth.
If thats the case, the over 2 billion Catholics would indicate that over the 200 or so million Orthodox Christians.

>>19399659
>this is the doctrine that ends up coming out
> Non-Chalcedonian
>Orthodoxy
Anon, I don't know if you're being serious. Remarriage is also pretty clear apostolically, there are ancient canons about it. Twice-married after baptism can never be clergy canonically according to the apostolic rules, which shows the existence of such Christians.
>once you've rejected the papacy
The papacy is an innovation. Rome left the church by redacting the creed, claiming it was actually the East who changed it, anathematizing the East, breaking the peach treaties about union with the same creed, and acting schismatic by installing parallel bishops in jurisdictions not under its control. The East didn't fully break communion until about the 13th century.

>Orthodoxy is trad Protestantism.
RCism is more protestant, because it rejects consensus patrum and rather follows the faith of one bishop who happens to occupy the Roman see at a given point. You don't even have to be historically consistent with previous popes, the current pope himself is what in the RC views gives catholicity, not unity of faith which is how it has always been seen.

>>19399742
>I grew up going to parochial Catholic grade school and we had many Greek Orthodox students because they didn't have a large enough population for their own schools. I've been to three different services and unsurprisingly across the East coast of the US, and unsurprisingly it was almost exclusively Greek Americans with long familial legacies of Orthodoxy. I wouldn't be surprised if I was one of a couple of people who have actually been to services in this thread.
Sorry for the typos, sent on phone. Meant to say "across the East coast of the US, and unsurprisingly it was almost exclusively"

>>19399742
>over 2 billion Catholics would indicate
Majority doesn't dictate truth, because truth is immutable. But when something is already true only then can we use that as reason to explain why it is spreading. The gentiles accepted Christ because He is the Truth. The Jews rejected Christ also because He is the Truth and they prefer evil instead, same for the rest of the world.

>comfy discussion
>some Catholic ruins the thread screaming about LARPing
Every time

I'm going to reject the freemason puppet we have as a pope and convert to the based Orthodox Church.Can't wait for my Holy Chrismation.

>>19399798
the first step in owning the libs

>>19399742
>disagreements stem primarily from politics and not theology.

Historically Orthodox saints always rejected union precisely because of theology. The politically minded heretics is who united in spite of the difference in theology for worldly power, like the uniates.

St. Gregory Palamas and many others speak about filioque as a lie of the serpent. Reminder that he is a now a saint in Roman Catholicism through the uniates... If you think it is the RC side who cares about theology, when they allow Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia and St. Palamas veneration, you are seriously self-deluded.

>This, therefore, is a mental [construct] and therefore an even more damnable serpent - the first and the last evil, - crafty and eternally feeding on the lowly and on earthly cunning, the vigilant guardian of the heel (Gen. 3:14, 15), that is, delusions. On every Godly doctrine he is a resourceful inventor and an inexperienced artisan who never forgets his evil art, through obedient Latins, introduces new speeches about God, which seem to contain [only] a small change, but serve as a pretext for great evils and carry terrible [consequences, very] inappropriate for piety and unnatural, and clearly showing to everyone that even the smallest of things related to God is not small.

>>19399554
>Many people look at Christianity for immediate political relief. Islam is better suited for this
To be honest, I think this is the way Islam takes Europe. Its the strict social code to adhere to and enforce.

>>19399831
if you think politics had no effect on the development of theology you are absolutely delusional

>>19399876
Well, yeah, just look at the pope and his efforts to set himself up as God-Emperor

>>19399876
It does have an effect, but only in the light that God is ultimately sovereign over history and does use His will to instate the truth, i.e. Orthodox theology. Like the Amalekites being destroyed, heretics being banished by Orthodox emperors, even Israel being punished and allowed to suffer so they repent, etc.

>>19399897
i bet you think being based & redpilled is a personality type

>>19398692
>prodigal son
Probably my favorite parable.

Hasten to open Thy Fatherly embrace to me,
For I have wasted my life as the Prodigal.
In the unfailing wealth of Thy mercy O Saviour,
Do not reject my heart in its poverty.
For I cry to Thee with compunction, O Lord:
Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee!

>Sessional Hymn (Tone 1) of the Resurrection Sunday of the Prodigal Son.
>This is also sung during the monastic tonsure.
https://youtu.be/Ur39cbcr_pk

>>19387681
As an Orthodox Christian, this image hurts. It's great to see converts, but many of them are converting simply because they are more interested in being "right" than in being in the Church Christ founded.

Is this prelest? And how do I overcome it? I’ve been starting to attend an Orthodox Church recently after having some spiritual experiences in prayer, but now in prayer I feel like I am always eager and even impatient for more and more experiences from God, to the extent that it is feeling spiritually harmful for me. And I do not believe this is a result of demonic influence, because it was in these experiences that I told that I must follow Jesus Christ. What has been awful for me is my reaction to these experiences. It has been a double-edged sword. I now have a feeling of some real faith, but, unfortunately, it often feels like I’m just wanting more experience of God. Should I talk the priest or something? It’s getting on my nerves because I realize this is harmful but I cannot overcome this mindset.

>>19400061
Just entreat the mercy of Christ, as we all have tendencies that we cannot overcome that we must ask forgiveness for. As someone who had many experiences early in my faith, especially as a catechumen, I also chased experience, but am slowly learning to be patient and to love God regardless of what is given to me

>>19395936
Well, it was... different. I'm not from a high-church background so seeing the whole thing gave me a little bit of culture shock, but in a good way - it felt right. I especially enjoyed how most of the liturgy was sung or chanted, the procession the priest and deacon made with the censer around the congregation, and the little bit right after the service where everyone sang to an older man for his birthday - not the traditional birthday song, but some kind of blessing that everyone joined in on. I did feel pretty awkward during the service, since other people got to the service books before I could and I ended up just standing in the back watching, but everyone greeted me warmly during the coffee hour they had afterwards and I got to sit down with the priest for a little bit. He was friendly and responded well to my questions, but I got the sense that he found my lack of knowledge on some church topics a little bewildering (I'm from a Mormon background).
Nobody was super pushy with me in trying to get me to keep coming back, but they did tell me they hoped to see me again when I left. It was an hour's drive to get there, but it turns out there's a smaller local chapel not far from me where they hold some services every other week, so I think I'll go check those out.
I do want to keep taking things little by little, though - I don't want to try and become le epic based and redpilled trad orthobro with a million icons in my room or whatever, and additionally I think my family will react pretty negatively to my interest in denominations outside the LDS church. Not sure how to talk to them about it but I have a couple weeks before Thanksgiving to think.
Again, thanks for your helpful posts, anon. I hope your Sunday was as nice as mine.

>>19400043
No one is converting. Everyone is just larping and shitposting.

>>19400079
God bless you anon. I'm from a Protestant background myself. Please email me if you have any questions. I have some ebooks and audiobooks if you're interested. js155795@gmail.com

>>19400074
Thank you for the response, anon. It seems like I was thinking along the right lines then, because my first thought was to just ask for forgiveness, and to contemplate the fact that if anything it is God who has rights over me, and not the other way around. If anything I ought to be grateful that God has given me the few gifts that He has despite what I have done in the past. I will try to think more of this.

>>19400079
I’m happy to hear that it sounds like your first experience was overall a positive one, anon. It sounds not all too different from my first visit too, except, like I said, I didn’t stay behind afterwards the first time. I can definitely relate to what you are saying regarding the cultural shock for someone not of a high-church background. Like you, I wasn’t really sure what to think immediately after it ended, but I soon decided I wanted to go back.

Definitely probably good to take it slow, regardless. Good luck with your journey, I’m glad my posts were helpful for you.

>>19399504
>If anything, converts usually have a better understanding of the issues than people who have been born into it, because they had to start from zero.
Convert's Zeal: The Post

Converts usually have a better understanding of the issues than people who have been born into it, since they only have a theoretical outlook on the religious life - they don't have the experience of practising it for years and sticking to it through crisis situations and generational change. The current Patriarch of Russia joined clergy back under literal Communists.

I've been living an agnostic life for 26 years and I've finally taken the steps to go to Church since I was 7-8. I've emailed 2 Orthodox Church Fathers that are located near me for some guidance because I feel very anxious yet excited about how much I will need to learn and for the journey ahead.
Should I read up on certain things beforehand? I don't want to make a fool of myself when I go, and I hope my emails get replies and they aren't put off that I'm so new to Christianity in general.

>>19400061
>And I do not believe this is a result of demonic influence because it was in these experiences that I told that I must follow Jesus Christ
I am pretty sure demons can distort your understanding even of genuine events from God. In the sense that they can make you believe false interpretations about the event. For example Christ may call you to repentance through some event, but the demon will try to make you seem like a saint who's speaking to God and receiving prophecy, etc.
Generally with any unclear spiritual experience the rule is to neither accept not reject it. Don't dwell on the experience but recognize that if you did really see God, you are unworthy and should not think much of it.

Check out St. Ignatius Bryanchaninov. https://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-is-spiritual-delusion/587-on-prelest
>Spiritual deception is the wounding of human nature by falsehood. Spiritual deception is the state of all men without exception, and it has been made possible by the fall of our original parents. All of us are subject to spiritual deception. Awareness of this fact is the greatest protection against it. Likewise, the greatest spiritual deception of all is to consider oneself free from it. We are all deceived, all deluded; we all find ourselves in a condition of falsehood; we all need to be liberated by the Truth.

>>19400127
>Convert's Zeal: The Post
I'm Russian so not really a convert. Also there is absolutely nothing bad in zeal, it's necessary for anyone especially at their formation period. The whole attitude of being "moderate" and not a "fanatic" is what leads eventually to apostasy.
>they don't have the experience of practising it for years
I mean the cradle-orthodox who were born in it but aren't deep into their faith, someone from the outside has an advantage in that they aren't going to be lukewarm if they really decided to investigate the faith. Many cradle Orthodox in America will easily agree with this sentiment. But obviously being born in an Orthodox believing family is a huge advantage, many saints had this.

What exactly happens after someone confesses something to a priest? Are they given a set of prayers to do and sent on their way? Does it differ based on what exactly the person did?
What would happen if someone approached the Orthodox church but had committed very serious sins in their past, like murder or incest?
t. interested but might have some skeletons in the closet

>>19400146
>Should I read up on certain things beforehand? I don't want to make a fool of myself when I go
Don't worry anon, people know that others come from different paths and that you won't understand everything immediately. That's why catechesis exists. Read up on basics of Orthodox liturgy, maybe watch some videos. The protestant guy on youtube has a decent talk with a priest if you come from that background, although I would not recommend the rest of his videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw45OChdnJ4 https://youtu.be/7uIEYIzArx4
>aren't put off that I'm so new to Christianity in general.
It's the priest's direct duty from God to bring new people into the Church, anon. If they are put off by it, then it's not worth to learn from them in the first place.

>>19400190
Are you baptised, anon? If so then confession is the only path for you to get your sins forgiven. But upon baptism all sins are forgiven.

In confession, God forgives through the priest's authority everything you confess. There are certain conditions - you have faith in His forgiveness and repent, i.e. you really do not wish to commit it anymore and consider it an evil action. After forgiveness not even the demons can blame you on the day of judgement for doing it, God erases it completely and gives you the power to fight the sin, even though some lingering effects may remain. It's akin to removing a bullet from the wound, if you did something seriously damaging to the soul you will require more healing, but confession is a necessary part of the healing.

>Are they given a set of prayers to do and sent on their way? Does it differ based on what exactly the person did?
If you're just entering the church, nothing like this will likely happen but the priest will help you based on your confession and how you describe it to him and when you did the sin, etc. Penances are usually only for people already in the church who fell in a major way and is not given lightly by the priest to someone he doesn't know.

>What would happen if someone approached the Orthodox church but had committed very serious sins in their past, like murder or incest?
All sins are serious in God's eyes. Atheism and blasphemy even more so than murder or incest, but we confess it anyway and get forgiveness from God. No priest would turn you down or look at you in a demeaning way, most likely they've heard worse stuff than what you did especially if they've been serving for long.

>t. interested but might have some skeletons in the closet
I feel you, anon, I returned to the church relatively recently and had to confess some pretty horrible stuff. All of us have skeletons if you really think about it, we just don't see it because we are blinded by our love of evil. The hardest thing is actually getting to confession, you will experience all sorts of "obstacles" but when you actually do it you can actually feel the forgiveness of God. The sacrament is absolutely real in its power.

>>19400079
>I do want to keep taking things little by little, though
That's fine, do not take up more than you can manage right now. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

>>19399742
>Greek Americans
Those are not the only churches in the US. Greeks in America tend to be more modernist and ethnic but there are many parishes with many converts without any Orthodox background, especially under ROCOR or OCA jurisdiction.

>>19400061

- Geronda, what should we answer to the people who tell us about their visions, that they had seen such and such a Saint, or about something similar?

- It is better to advise such people to be cautious, restrained. Such attitude to visions is more reliable, because not all people are able to discern whether it was a vision from God or from the Devil.

But even if the vision is from God, a person should not accept it the first time. God, seeing that His creation – a man - does not accept the vision [is not upset, but on the contrary], in some way, is touched. Indeed, such an attitude to the vision shows that the person has humility. If the Saint who appeared to a person was a real Saint, and the man did not accept this vision, God knows way to notify the soul of the man and lead it wherever He wants. Attention is needed, because the Devil [instead of the Saint] can come, which will turn on [demonic] "television" and begin his transmission...

I remember one woman who did not receive any help from people, and therefore had the right to the Divine help. God, wanting to help this woman, gave her a vision. However, after this vision, the Devil suggested her the following thoughts: "Who knows, maybe God has honored you with this vision because He destines you to some higher mission!"

Since that moment when she believed in such diabolic suggestions, the Devil started his work and she fell under his power. But after all God had mercy on her. She had a vision, and she heard a voice saying to her: "Write a letter to father Paisios and describe all the visions that you had." She wrote me a letter and told about all previous visions. The Devil utterly tormented her. Yes, all her visions were real, but almost all of them were from the tempter. Only the first and last of her visions were from God. Wanting to bring her to life and to help her to get rid of delusion, God allowed this last vision to happen. Finally, the miserable woman obeyed my advice and managed to get out [of the net] of the Devil visions that she had.

Same anon as >>19387026

I have a question, once I talked to a priest that lived in the other side of the country. He told me that the Orthodox don't do missions in Brazil because there is some sort of agreement with Catholics saying Orthodox shouldn't do missions in Catholic majority countries and vice-versa.

Is this true? I can list things that I don't really agree in Catholic theology and I could solve these issues really simply: going to Orthodoxy. He was a member of the The Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

I swear I'm not being capricious, I am trying to reach the Greek Orthodox church for longer than five years now.
I still go to Catholic Church, but I don't know... I made gave my questions to the priests and I was unsatisfied with the answers.

Is that it? You follow a church based on the geographical location you live in? That doesn't sound like what Christ meant...

Good thread so far, I've only started attending service for a few weeks now and I guess I'm really taken back by how friendly and welcoming the people are. I was given the book the orthodox way to read would this be a good starting point?

>>19400478
The Orthodox Way is a fantastic book. Believe it or not I literally just finished reading it through for the first time in the last hour so. It’s concise, but it gives you a good glimpse of the spiritual side of the Orthodox life. There’s a lot of good quotes from various saints at the end of each section that are pretty interesting pieces of wisdom. Well-sourced too. Definitely a must-read

>>19387239
You mean not a modernist, adult converts are always weird and unhinged anyway, he prob knows what he's doing

>>19400471
>Is this true?
That's the first time I've heard it, but if people aren't willing to accept converts from Roman Catholicism, it is a grave sin the hierarchs who engage in it will answer for. They're basically ridding these people of salvation when they are charged with helping them.
>reach the Greek Orthodox church
Orthodoxy isn't equivalent to Greek Orthodox, in Brazil there are other canonical churches to iirc. Look up other jurisdictions like ROCOR. Greek Orthodox just means under the Ecumenical Patriarch.
>You follow a church based on the geographical location you live in?
Ideally there would be no schism and you would simply follow the Orthodox bishop of your land, but sadly things aren't so simple today.

>>19400510
Thanks anon, I misspoke however they gave me the orthodox church by timothy ware, same author obviously but I assume this is still a good place to start

>>19400528
I haven’t read that book of his since I’m pretty new to Ware, but his other book was good and the Orthodox Way was meant to be sort of a supplement to the one you were given, so I imagine it will still be a good read. Definitely check out The Orthodox Way if you end up liking that book

>>19400513
>You mean not a modernist,
If a priest tells you to stay Roman Catholic, he either thinks you can be saved professing Roman Catholicism, which is modernist heresy, or he thinks you should be damned which is just straight up satanism in the most concrete sense.

>>19400510
>>19400537
The only problem I had with The Orthodox Way was that he seemed to feel the need to quote from non-Christian Jewish sources to show that there were parallels in other traditions. Why quote from Hasidic Jews or the Talmud to make a point? These people literally hate and blaspheme Christ. He only did it in like one or two places but I was kind of taken aback and it seemed out of place. It was still a very good book

>>19400565
Doesn't he have some weird tendencies nowadays? It probably shows in some of his earlier work, but they are still well regarded if read with caution.
Also the assumption that today's Judaism is somehow very close to the original pharisaic tradition is very common (although not really warranted), so maybe that's why he's quoting.

>>19400523
But the issue is, the only near my home is 100km away and it's Greek Orthodox.
The priest didn't seemed happy to see me there when I've visited a liturgy in 2013.
He actually told me to stay catholic and literally said "it's all the same"

ROCOR is not a thing here. There is a Russian church in Rio, but that's 600km away from where I live.
In São Paulo, there is the Antioch Cathedral, but never been there.

>>19400513
I travelled 100km just to be there. I was only 20-something.
I think I deserved a better shot.

>>19400549
But do Orthodox actually preach Catholics will be damned?

My argument with the Catholic Church is in two fronts: modern traditions.
Firstly, whatever justifies Marian theology in Catholic Church is questionable to say the least, usually some mystic had a revelation and suddenly the rosary became our stairway to heaven, and every time there is Marian apparition, no matter how shady the story is, they end up slowly canonizing it. For example, Medjugorie is officially a point of pilgrimage nowadays.
Have you ever read in depth about the Medjugorie story? One of the witness even founded a cult together with priest investigating it. It's satanic to say the least.

Secondly, these sacred and immaculate heart ideas seem absurd. I lived within the Catholic Church thinking the worship was symbolic, but no! They worship the heart as if the heart was a person if it's own. Ask a Catholic and he will say "well, if the Pope approved what a mystic habe revealed, who am I to question?
Of course we need to question. Who validates these mystical revelations anyway? Why would Saint Mary tell someone to pray for her heart?
What is this idea of consecrating humanity to the heart of Mary?
Questionable, very questionable.

>>19399605
>>19399600
t. theosis illiterate

>>19400588
Oi anon qual foi a Igreja ortodoxa que disse isso pra você? Posso conversar com meu padre a respeito. A Igreja russa do Rio faz catequese online se você se interessar, eu recomendo, mas o ideal seria você atender a alguma pessoalmente

>>19400580
>Also the assumption that today's Judaism is somehow very close to the original pharisaic tradition is very common
I’m not too familiar with Ware beyond this book, but it wouldn’t surprise me if this was the motive. Still, I find it to be a very odd assumption, because Judaism since the time of the Pharisees has gradually become more tied together with semi-gnostic ideas like Kabbalah, and of course a rejection of the Trinity.

>>19400632
>But do Orthodox actually preach Catholics will be damned?
Many modernists don't, but it has been the consistent teaching for 2000 years that the unrepentant sin of heresy and the sin of schism removes you from salvation, same as other sins like fornication or murder. It's conceivable that someone baptised by a Roman Catholic priest might be saved if he dies in infancy or is mentally deficient, but outside of that it's extremely hard to conceive a Roman Catholic who isn't damaged by the sin of heresy, ultimately it's for God to judge of course.

>>19400000

>>19400632
>I travelled 100km just to be there. I was only 20-something.
This is very sad to hear, anon. I hope you find a priest in your area. God does wonderful things if you pray to Him and truly place all your hope in Him.

>>19399659
>Orthodoxy is trad Protestantism

>>19400658
Poxa, não esperava por um Brasileiro aqui.

Vale lembrar que não estou falando mal do padre que celebrou a liturgia com muita dignidade, mas é óbvio que a igreja deles era mais étnica, tanto que a primeira coisa que o padre perguntou é se eu era libanês. A Igreja é em São José do Rio Preto - SP.

Mas achei questionável ele dizer que Catolicismo e Ortodoxia da na mesma. Pra falar verdade eu comecei minha catequese católica depois daquilo, já faz nove anos que posso me dizer católico (cresci numa senpaiília pentecostal e logo pulei fora odiando religião, aos 20 que voltei a procurar Cristo.)

Se puder conversar, eu ficaria feliz.
Apesar que, dadas as circunstâncias, eu vejo que não vou sair de onde vivo tão cedo.

>>19400632
>They worship the heart as if the heart was a person if it's own.
Yeah, that's very evil and defies the anathema of St. Cyril about giving only a single worship to Christ's person, not separating His divinity from His humanity. It's even worse than Nestorianism to introduce a separate worship to a created part of Christ's humanity.
>If anyone dares to say that the man who was assumed ought to be worshipped and glorified together with the divine Word and be called God along with him, while being separate from him, (for the addition of "with" must always compel us to think in this way), and will not rather worship Emmanuel with one veneration and send up to him one doxology, even as "the Word became flesh", let him be anathema.

This alone refutes RCism because their mysticism is just insane and not traditional, nothing like it existed before and all pre-schism ascetic saints speak really about the same thing which is still preserved in Orthodoxy to this day. The saints warn us against imagination in prayer, but their saints directly approve it and recommend it.

>>19400663
>Pharisees has gradually become more tied together with semi-gnostic ideas like Kabbalah
I was surprised when I saw Jews teaching a form of reincarnation where the Jewish soul can inhabit multiple bodies after dying. They really went spiritually insane after they killed Christ.

>>19400663
>>19400747

>of course a rejection of the Trinity.
Is anyone familiar with the Jewish copes about the Angel of the Lord? How do they explain those passages?
I've heard a Russian priest mention that the Jews have a weird Rosh-Hashanah prayer where they ask for the intercession of a bunch of angels, and of Yeshua, the Angel of the Face of YHWH, and that a Jew having questions about it was ostracized for asking about what it means.

@19400753
>the demons cringe at the truth

>>19400747
>But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?

>If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. But still some people pay it honor as a holy place.
t. St. John Chrysostom

Yeah, it’s insane. It gets even worse in Lurianic Kabbalah where there is some cosmic abortion created by God where the ‘vessels’ (shevira) shatter and the world can only be repaired through Tikkun Olam and legalistically following the 613 mitzvot. I’ve been meaning to look into the sephirot and the idea of the ‘lesser Yahweh’ (Metatron) to see if Judaism today is even a monotheistic religion. It seems like some sort of gnostic polytheistic racial cult at this point. I pray they repent of it all one day.

>>19387308
exceedingly based

>the demons cringe at the truth

>>19400776
Jews claim that in the Tanakh the term ‘God’ is used for things relating to God as well as to God Himself, so when the Angel of the Lord appears and someone says “I have seen God”, they are saying that they have seen something / someone that is of God. It’s a bad cope. They bolster this with some stuff from the Hebrew Masoretic text (10th century or later lol) that uses the name ‘Elohim’ in relation to judges that are appointed in the law of Moses. So it will literally say “bring them to God”, but it is translated into English as ‘bring them to the judges / judgement seat”. The Septuagint says “judgement seat” or something similar in these places, while preserving everything relating to the Angel of the Lord. This is one of the many reasons I trust the Septuagint more than late Masoretic texts. I think it’s distorted

>>19399310
They hated him for he told the truth

>>19400738
>This alone refutes RCism because their mysticism is just insane and not traditional

You touched an important word there. "Traditional"
In tradcath, these dogmas are not to be questioned at all, and of course it will be the TradCaths that will defend ideas such as "co-redemptrix", although it is not an official dogma, the trads will embrace it, because the essence of TradCath is not to seek truth, but to act as an extreme opposition to protties' dismissal of Mary.
And in order to combat a heresy, they build a greater heresy.

> nothing like it existed before and all pre-schism ascetic saints speak really about the same thing which is still preserved in Orthodoxy to this day.

True, and it sorts of gets worse with time.
Think of Marian apparitions, they are quite recent if you think about it. The Fatima mysteries has serious implications, as we can see in a part of a prayer:

>And, through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of You the conversion of poor sinners.

We can debate what it means by "merits" and why the Heart of Jesus is together with the Heart of Mary when comes to conversion.
And there is no way to see these apparitions without considering the dogma of Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart, for they play an important role in all of it.

>The saints warn us against imagination in prayer, but their saints directly approve it and recommend it.

It is in scriptures.
"be sober, be vigilant, for your adversary is the Devil" wrote the Apostle in 1 Peter 5:8
And don't get me started with 1 Corinthians where Paul clearly give a minor role to prophecies, you can't make dogmas that play such a huge role out of prophecies and visions, for they are difficult to interpret.
But since the Catholic Pope apparently has the power to interpret it all, if it is convenient, he will confirm each and every of these visions.
Medjugorie... Just read about Medjugorie. It is disgusting that TradCaths defend that.

I really need to read The Orthodox Church by kallistos ware, anyone here read it?
I'm mostly interested in it in terms of the history of the orthodox church, key figures, developments, major events like disputes or things that influenced the church but also how it affected the lives of the people and the culture that it created

And I say more. Is there any worse Heresy and disrespects towards God than having a Catholic LARPing as a crusader and saying "Deus Vult"?

Who was Pope Urban II to say these words? Who was he but a man to decide what God Wills or Wills Not?

A great deal of the crusades was not againt the Muslims, but against pious Orthodox. And what benefit came from it? None.
It wasn't God's Will, it was the Pope's vain will.

>>19400997
Well if the crusades went well then it was gods will but if they went badly then it was still gods will

>>19401006
Or maybe the pope was drunk on power and made that up for political reasons.

>>19400828
>when you larp as a jew so hard you accuse jews of being polytheists
Let's ignore that you can't explain the Trinity without recreating an ancient heresy for a minute here. At this point, given that you're just tossing the entirety of Christianity's historical conception of itself out the window, AND are openly admitting that you conceive of yourself as more valid than Jews by their own standards, despite throwing those standards out. Why not either
>just become an Odinist
or
>just become a Jew

Because at this point, you aren't really engaging with Christianity, you're just creating your own weird thing so that you can be an Anti-Semite but not just admit that you really want to be a White Nationalist, and you're cloaking it with 2deep4u and esotericism. If you want to be a polytheist, just admit it. If you want to be a monotheist, just admit it. Why hold this weird schizophrenic middleground?

>>19401026
>jews of being polytheists
Ι fail to see how the sephirot is basically not polytheism.

>>19401026
I’m not a White Nationalist and I’m not an anti-Semite. The first Christians were undeniably Jews, and did great work in spreading the message of the Gospel far and wide. I don’t hate Jews in a racial sense or think that they cannot be Christians. This *would* be anti-Semitism. I merely agree with St. John Chrysostom that the modern Jews do not know God so long as they do not know Christ. Modern Judaism is rife with beliefs about reincarnation (gilgul), gnosticism (Kabbalic traditions, especially the Lurianic ones) and many other ideas that seem to indicate that the gentiles are of lesser worth than Jews. All of this is far, far astray from the truth. I merely said I wanted to investigate certain aspects of modern day Judaism further, because the idea of an enthroned ‘lesser Yahweh’ smacks of potential polytheism to me. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. The Sephirot come off in much the same way.

>>19401026
>can't explain the Trinity without recreating an ancient heresy
What? Heresy is necessarily something opposed to the correct notion of the Holy Trinity and of the incarnation.
>conceive of yourself as more valid than Jews by their own standards
The current Talmudic standard appeared later than Christianity, and was an outgrowth of a sect which didn't truly follow the God of the Old Testament since they rejected Him when He came to them in the flesh.

>just become an Odinist
Why would I worship a demon created by God, and not God Himself?
>just become a Jew
Why would I try to follow the law which doesn't save you? Legitimately what is the reason to become a Jew when even in their system I can be saved (even if I'll be an eternal slave)? Christ already fulfilled the temple sacrificial system with the cross. I couldn't "practice" Judaism even if I wanted to because there is no temple now, Daniel's and other prophet's prophesies are fulfilled and the Messiah has come to the second temple Himself and it was destroyed. The gentiles have converted to the God of Israel and have become priests, there is literally no power in Judaism right now expect the power of Satan and you get get that in other religions too. There is now nothing unique in Judaism, it's just a more legalistic flavour of gnosticism.

>If you want to be a polytheist, just admit it. If you want to be a monotheist, just admit it.
Those are modern terms, I don't want to be either but I want truth. I want to follow the God who created this world. That is the Father, who did it through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.

>>19401099
>>19401045
If the Sephirot is polytheism, how is the Trinity not? By the Jews' own definition the Trinity is polytheism for introducing multiplicity of personhood to the divine. Jews (apparently, because the fuckers never give a straight answer about anything in Qabbalah) believe that the sephirot are just a bunch of attributes that aren't actually sentient or something (anymore than "your strength" is somehow sentient and separate from you); how is that polytheism, when the Trinity isn't?

>>19401138
They believe in a higher impersonal divinity called the Ein Sof who descended to form YHWH. It's literal polytheism.
Christians believe in only one power and glory, not many divinities and God is only strictly personal. God's unity is inherent in the Father's essence, which is given perfectly to the Son by begetting and the Holy Spirit by procession. The divine essence is not an impersonal divinity like the ein sof, but is only conceivable of and only exists in the mode of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

>>19401138
>By the Jews' own definition the Trinity is polytheism for introducing multiplicity of personhood to the divine
Jews evidently don’t know how to read their own scriptures, because multiplicity of persons within the Godhead is attested all over the Old Testament. Even Jews such as Philo were beginning to understand the Logos and its relation to God around the time of Christ’s incarnation.

>Jews (apparently, because the fuckers never give a straight answer about anything in Qabbalah) believe that the sephirot are just a bunch of attributes that aren't actually sentient or something (anymore than "your strength" is somehow sentient and separate from you)
I’m not sure myself. Jews will call them ‘attributes’, but then will go on and personify them. For example, looking at Joseph Dan’s ‘Kabbalah: A Very Short Introduction’ we see the Shekhinah described as
>The feminine power in the divine world [...] The employs of the Shekhinah are described in great detail in the Zohar, and coming into contact with her is a main component of kabbalistic rituals. She is the tenth and lowest power in the divine realm, and therefore closest to the material, created world and to human beings [...] As the lowest sefirah she is closest to the sufferings of Israel [...] Being feminine, she is the weakest of the among the divine powers, and the satanic forces can achieve a hold of her and draw her away from her husband (the male divine figure, often the totality of nine other sefirot, or sometimes specifically the sixth sefirah, Tiferet)
This sounds like a goddess to me.

>Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra in the middle of the twelfth century, described the kavod-shekhinah as an emanated divine power, which can assume characteristics that allow revelation and anthropomorphic descriptions [...] By the late twelfth century the Shekhinah was conceived as a separate, emanated divine power that is revealed to the prophets and assumes other worldly functions.
Again, sounds like a goddess. This is a book from Oxford University Press too so I assume it is a reputable source

>>19401138
>By the Jews' own definition the Trinity is polytheism
The Trinity is in the Old Testament. Polytheism refers not to multiplicity but to belief in strange gods who did not make a covenant with Israel.

>>19401213
So the Holy Spirit is a person.

>>19401228
Yes. So is the Son who is called many times the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, and also Wisdom.
The Son and the Holy Spirit have the Father's divinity and glory and are never separated from each other, they have the same exact action so there is not three powers, but one power.

>>19401240
Where does it say the Holy Spirit is a separate person? Especially in the Old Testament.

>>19401228
All three of the Trinity are personal, and share one will. Acts 13.2 is one example of many of the Holy Spirit directly speaking:
>While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

>>19401249
Already discussed today: >>19399167

>>19401258
>>19401240
>destroys the concept of the trinity
Sorry cathlotards. You lose again.

>>19401249
The Holy Spirit is introduced the first page of Genesis.

>>19401319
>After being condemned by Catholic authorities in France, he fled to Calvinist Geneva where he was burned at the stake for heresy by order of the city's governing council.
Lol

>>19401333
Ironic how Catholics laugh and cheer at the spilt blood of Christ martyrs. Very compassionate.

>>19401349
>heretics
>Christian
Pic one

>>19401319
>Servetus does not recognize the Word and the Spirit as hypostases, but only as modes of self-proclamation and self-communication of the Divine. Servetus thinks of Christ as the Son of God, while affirming that the soul of Christ was composed of the union of the Holy Spirit, which is divine breath, with the breath of earthly, created life.
So recycled modalism and Apollinarianism. Nothing new and was debunked centuries before this guy was born.

>>19401349
>Christ martyrs
You cannot be a martyr when you deny the incarnation. The guy didn't believe Christ has a truly human soul, but was some kind of weird composite of humanity and divinity. So Christ in his view is not consubstantial to us in His humanity, but is something different entirely.

>>19401369
>DEBOOONKED
Kek. Cathlotards are amazing.
>not a martyr
If you believe Christ is the Son of God and died for our sins, and you die for that then what is he? Time to make up another catholic word. Makes sure it’s in Latin so really sound like a pseud.

>>19401258
The title ‘Holy Spirit,’ used as another title for Yahweh is found in Acts 5:3, 13:2, 28:5. The holy spirit as the gift from the Giver, Yahweh (Holy Spirit), is also called the spirit of Yahweh, spirit of Elohim etc. The term, ‘spirit of Yahweh,’ is synonymous with the term; holy spirit; 1Sa 16:13 And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren. And the spirit of Yahweh came mightily upon David, from that day forward... Ps 51:11 Do not cast me away from thy presence, And, thy holy spirit, do not take from me [David]; Isa 61:1 The spirit of My Lord Yahweh, is upon me,––Because Yahweh, Hath anointed me, to tell good tidings to the oppressed... Ac 10:38 How Yahweh anointed him with holy spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the adversary, because, Yahweh, was with him. Yahweh, the Giver, is called the Holy Spirit and his gift is also called spirit of Yahweh, spirit of Elohim and holy spirit. Bible translators will usually always capitalize the term ‘holy spirit’ but in the text this is not so. The understanding of whether the usage of pneumatov (spirit) agiou (holy) is the Giver (Yahweh) or the gift (spirit of Yahweh, holy spirit) is determined by its context. Do not depend upon Bible translations for a correct rendering.
>Yahweh is Christ
Trinitarians btfo

>>19401410
I'm not Roman Catholic.
>then what is he
>>Christ was God manifested in the flesh, yet not as part of a tri-personal God, and that he did not exist previously as the Son, but as the divine Logos (the manifestation of God, or the Word of God) that became the Son after incarnation.
He does not believe Christ was always Son of God but only became so at a point in time. He doesn't believe Christ became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He does not believe Christ is human, so he doesn't believe in the historical Christ but rather a mental construction of his which does not exist in reality outside of the mind. It's a different faith, he is no more a martyr than the Muslim dying for Allah, who also believes in Christ being a special emanation from God by the way.

>>19401497
>The Holy Spirit is Yahweh
That is exactly what the Christians say. Yahweh is not a designation of personhood, but of essence and action. The Angel of the Lord is also identified with Yahweh.

>>19401497
>>Yahweh is Christ
Uh, yeah? Don’t try to post about Christianity if you know nothing about it. Embarrassing

>>19401506
>>19401514
Yahweh is the ancient patron deity of the Israelites and somehow Europe was tricked into obsessing over and worshipping him for millennia. Fucking tragic.

>>19400658
Anon, acho que o tópico irá encher em breve

Entre em contato via vizierofnothing@protonmail.com

>>19401530
>Yahweh is the ancient patron deity of the Israelites and somehow Europe was tricked into obsessing over and worshipping him for millennia. Fucking tragic.

>>19401530
>>19401506
The Holy Spirit is not a third person, dim wits.

>>19401530
Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. There’s ample evidence for this, namely in how all of the prophecies up through now have come true.

Every time I come to these threads I feel like the stereotypical 4chan orthoLARPer.
>hentai addict
>been to exactly one liturgy
>kindle library/bookshelves filled with theological and mystical works (most unread or read for 5 minutes and put away)
>initially attracted to the aesthetics and music more than the theology and liturgy
>soft spot for Byzantine alternate history and have Eastern Christian patches on my plate carrier
I don't want to be a tradlarping zoomer and I'm trying to slow down and approach this more seriously but I feel like a goofball every time I chime in on some obscure Catholic/Orthodox debate like I'm some theological scholar and not a Wikipedia-educated sperg.

>>19401544
>Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. There’s ample evidence for this, namely in how all of the prophecies up through now have come true.

>Literally duped by one book quoting another book.

Wow

>>19401580
Refute Daniel 9.24-27

>>19401588
>Daniel 9.24-27

Some ancient people wrote a character who fit a prophecy.

>>19401626
Jesus was a real person though, and you’re forgetting that what was predicted in the prophecy is that the Temple would be destroyed by a foreign army and that sacrifices would stop. This would happen after the Christ was killed. We know all of this happened from history. Even more remarkably, this happens exactly in the time predicted by the prophecy, i.e. 490 years after the order to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

>>19401588
>The book was probably completed shortly after Cyrus captured Babylon in 539.
Wow amazing prophecy, predicted something 500 years in the past!

>>19401769
>was probably completed shortly
>was probably
>science shows

>>19401769
The prophecy refers to Christ and the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., with the time-frame of 490 years beginning in the reign of Artaxerxes I. You don’t understand the prophecy.

>>19401626
This is not a refutation, but your made-up unfactual justification to not believe in Christ.

I’m starting to realize how soulless Protestantism is. I can’t believe they have entirely thrown out the idea of theosis and becoming more and more god-like. I especially love the ideas like St. Gregory of Nyssa’s idea of epektasis, striving and growing eternally in knowledge and love of God. I had had similar thoughts before but it was exciting to see that someone had already articulated it centuries ago. Far too many people today see the world to come as static and almost boring, when I think it will be the exact opposite

>>19402094
I know what you mean. I guess it's tied to the idea of salvation as an event instead of a process - once you're "saved," it's hard to want to keep denying yourself or the world, since after all, you're saved now and even if you live totally immorally, it's fine, right? The end result is something that encourages superficial worship and devotion while turning a blind eye to the actual actions and intentions of its believers.

>>19401588
>Daniel 9.24-27
What is there to refute? It isn't evidence for anything

>>19402121
You have to exegete the text. If one interprets the period of seventy 'sevens' or seventy weeks (depending on the translation) as referring to seventy periods of seventy years, i.e. 490 years (in accordance with the idea of 'weeks of years' in Leviticus 25:8). Several things are predicted in this prophecy. But first, we know that it starts "From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem". This is widely believed to be in the 7th year of King Artaxerxes of the Achaemenid Empire in accordance with the dates given in the Old Testament book of Ezra (Ezra 7). He is believed by secular historians to have begun to his reign in 465 B.C. The seventh year of his reign would be ~458 B.C. The prophecy says that there will be 62 'weeks' (434 years) from the finishing of the restoration of Jerusalem (which would take '7' weeks or 49 years) until the coming of the Anointed One / Christ. So if Jerusalem takes 49 years to restore from the order of Artaxerxes, that brings us to 409 B.C. 434 years from 409 B.C. is 25 A.D., the beginning of the 69th week of the prophecy, corresponding, it seems, with the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist at the start of Christ's ministry. Sometime after the beginning of the 69th week, the Anointed One / Christ will be put to death. There are several possible interpretations of the Hebrew here. Either the Anointed One "will be put to death and will have nothing", or possibly, (and more Christologically) he will "will be put to death, but not for himself". In the middle of the 70th 'week' a covenant will be affirmed with many, and sacrifice will become obsolete in the temple. This would occur around 28 / 29 A.D. according to the math, and would likely be the date when Jesus was crucified. Talmudic evidence shows that the sins of scapegoats stopped being forgiven from about 30 A.D. onwards. And of course, it says that "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed". This seems to correspond with the coming of the Romans into Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, which would of course end sacrifice in the Temple forever.

>>19402138
I know it is a prophecy that needs to exegeted, but a prophecy being fulfilled isn't evidence for the truthfulness of your religion. There is nothing to refute there

>>19402117
Yeah, exactly. I have interacted with evangelicals who literally think that as soon as you ‘accept Jesus’ that you are saved from your sins and are guaranteed to go to heaven. Doing anything is a ‘work’ and is diametrically opposed to salvation by faith alone. One of the people I talked with told me that he had never felt the need to repent. I was shocked. It’s stuff like this why Christianity is so disdained by some today, and why churches are emptying out in some places. The idea of infinitely coming to know God more and more perfectly, on the other hand, is immensely exciting.

>>19402160
It kind of boggles my mind how people can read all the stuff in the Bible about the Judgement coming like a thief in the night, or the parable of the 12 virgins, or Lazarus and the rich man, and come away thinking "yeah I'm good I don't need to repent." Like at that point you might as well just be honest and stop calling yourself Christian.

>>19402153
So let’s assume first that the scholarly date for Daniel is correct, and that it was written in the 2nd century B.C. This would mean that coincidentally the author somehow predicted exactly events that would happen in two centuries max, or either way more than a century after the events of his writing the prophecy, and he would somehow also know the exact dates of rulers such as Artaxerxes I that are known by modern-day secular historians. This is astronomically implausible. It gets even more implausible when we considered what actually happened, i.e. that Daniel wrote the Book of Daniel in the 6th century B.C. and predicted the time of the coming of Christ with laser precision. People can’t even predict the weather tomorrow outside today, let alone climate trends over a decade or so, and you think some guy can randomly pinpoint exact dates for the coming and death of Christ and that the Temple will be destroyed by foreigners and that sacrifices would stop? Be honest to yourself, anon, it’s impossible without God.

>>19402171
Yeah it is sort of upsetting to see. Many of them are quite attached to the idea as well. It’s too the extent with a few of the people I’ve met that you can literally become an apostate and you’ll still be saved if you have accepted Jesus at one point. It sounds like a parody but these people exist. I mean, I’d love if I was 100% that I’m going to heaven, but if I’m being honest with myself, I don’t think I deserve it at all. I think it’s dangerous to even think one is going to heaven in the first place with any certainty. As Paul says, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and elsewhere he uses the imagery of soldiers and athletes to convey the struggle and endurance needed to persevere in our quest to grow in sanctification and in likeness to God.

>>19402175
>Be honest to yourself, anon, it’s impossible without God.
Obviously false, there are countless possible explanations. Besides, yours is just an argument from incredulity. It doesn't matter that it is implausible, or that "we cannot even predict the weather tomorrow," it could still be a mere coincidence (if you prefer the atheistic route), or explained by any number of alternate spiritual hypotheses. It doesn't provide evidence for Christianity.

And of course, it shouldn't take too long to figure out why your argument (if it is Daniel's prophecy came true, therefore Christianity is true) is a non sequitur

>author predicts events in the future with great specificity
>this means that the Christian God exists, and He is the only existing god

Without even getting into conspiracies or accusations of fraud

This seems like any the best thread to post in.
Being raised in the South I'm deeply curious as to how other forms of Christianity besides the narrow band of Baptism/Methodist that I'm almost solely exposed to operate. The only Catholic churches in my area don't speak English and the only Orthodox churches (one Greek, the other Coptic) are a couple of cities away.
The umbrella of what I've been raised under seems so hollow theologically. It feels like plastic that has to substitute wild emotion for something quietly contemplative, yet genuine. As others have outlined I'm a bit intimidated for pursuing Orthodoxy, both for fear that I'm potentially doing it for personal disputes with Evangelism, though certainly not because it's the 'most uber tradpilled sect', or that I'll be rebuked
Do I just contact the nearest priest about curiosity regarding Orthodoxy as someone coming from Protestantism?

>>19402237
Offer some alternative explanations then. We have fragments of Daniel and even quotations of this very section (specifically verse 9.25) that have been dated pre-Christ, so the fraud angle isn’t going to work very well, and the prophecy has aspects which are readily verifiable in history—is there a Temple today? Do sacrifices take place? The answer is no.

If this prophecy is legitimate, it provides extremely strong evidence for Christianity, all things considered. Do any other religions have prophecies that are this accurate? None that I’ve ever seen, and I’ve explored many religions over the years. And how are we to explain the Talmudic references to how their sins stopped being forgiven?

Rosh Hashanah 31b:
>The ordinance was with regard to the strip of crimson wool used on Yom Kippur. As it is taught in a baraita: At first they would tie a strip of crimson wool to the opening of the Entrance Hall of the Temple on the outside. If, after the sacrificing of the offerings and the sending of the scapegoat, the strip turned White, the people would rejoice, as this indicated that their sins had been atoned for. If it did not turn White they would be sad.

>During the forty years before the Second Temple was destroyed the strip of crimson wool would not turn White; rather, it would turn a deeper shade of red
https://www.sefaria.org/Rosh_Hashanah.31b

Yoma 39b
>The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel did not turn White, and the westernmost lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.
https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b.5

These Talmudic accounts are about the scapegoat ritual at the Jewish temple, and how the Jews stopped having their sins forgiven in the forty years prior to the destruction of the temple (which comes out to literally 30 A.D., give or take). Jews would take a goat, tie a cloth around its horns or neck, and send it out into the wilderness for the forgiveness of sins.

It all adds up.

>>19398828
mr. Pagan, why don't you share how you worship your deities

>>19402271
>Do I just contact the nearest priest about curiosity regarding Orthodoxy as someone coming from Protestantism?
I’m also an inquirer here who has attended a few Divine Liturgies in recent weeks. What I did first was research all of the Orthodox churches around me, especially on their websites, and then picked one to contact from their via email, saying that I was interested in exploring what Orthodoxy had to offer and asked if the priest had any guidance for me. Basically he told me to start attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday and to check out other services such as Vespers. I’m sure you’ll get a similar response. Note though that Coptic churches aren’t quite the same—they’re miaphysites. I’d look into the Greek ones.

>>19402302
I see, thank you for specifying the Greek one. I'll have to get on that here soon

>>19402237
>if it is Daniel's prophecy came true, therefore Christianity is true
The whole issue really is that Christianity is true, therefore Daniel makes the true prophecy, among many other true prophecies you would expect to find. Truth itself is from God only, it does not exist as a separate independent metric we can judge God by. Any alternative explanation is literally just an invention so you don't have to deal with the reality that Christ is God when he gave you so many tools to know Him. You can create these elaborate justifications for why you can somehow bypass following God's will but it's all futile on the day of judgement. To say that all the prophecies and typology of Christ in the Old Testament just somehow magically and accidentally appeared is just wilfully deceiving yourself.

Overall, good thread. See you guys next time, hipe everyone had a great Sunday.

>>19402302
>miaphysites
monophysites*
St. Cyril teaches miaphysis (one incarnate nature of the Word), it's Orthodox teaching. They don't believe in the two natures of our Lord retaining their properties after the union, which destroys the distinction between divinity and humanity in Christ.

>>19402361
Agreed, I have enjoyed this thread and look forward to the next. Hope you had a good Sunday as welll

>>19402361
>>19402446
>tfw it's monday

>>19402467
I hope you had a good Monday, anon

>>19402277
>Jews stopped having their sins forgiven in the forty years prior to the destruction of the temple
Does anyone know what spiritual reading the rabbis give to the destruction of the temple? Why was it caused by God when it was supposedly the golden age of Talmudism?

>>19402479
Something something not obeying the mitzvot something something giving into hellenization

>>19402277
>Jews stopped having their sins forgiven in the forty years prior to the destruction of the temple (which comes out to literally 30 A.D
based coincidence.

>>19402336
Stay away from Coptics, they are going to Hell. They will suffer for all eternity for diverging from the Truth.