/lit/ - Literature

Yes.

Modern media is more accurate, man is evil without exception, read your Bible.

without a doubt. "shades of grey" fags are demiurge compliant lemmings. the greatest trick the devil ever pulled...

>>19382572
How can one meme be inaccurate of BOTH Martin and Tolkien at the same time?

Martin might be a fat retard but at least he isn't a cringe Christcuck.

Have you ever read Zola? He knew everyone was fucked up.

When you have nothing believe, you start to believe some shit. When you have nothing else to lose, you still lose it.

Are you that loser author who admitted to not reading the books? Just neck, bro. No one’s going to love you like this.

>>19382572
God mode: everyone is an asshole.

>>19382579
>Modern media is more accurate
>Bible

>>19382572
Lol no, there have been morally ambiguous stories since writing began. Comparing a mid 20th century author with a late 20th to 21st century author shows how narrow a view of literature that image has.

There are no defined good and bad sides in the Iliad, for example. Even the gods can be petty and vindictive.

>>19382572
>older literature: make evil as tempting as possible

>Things are either good or evil

>>19383534
yup.

>>19382572
>Definite Good or Evil
Someone hasn't read Shakespeare or even Reynard the fox

>>19382572
As a child black and white is simple to learn and gives you a moral foundation as you learn you begin to see the shades of grey both are useful we should not get rid of either

>>19382572
>i need childish worldviews to be entertained

>>19383534

>>19382572
No, this is embarrassing

>>19383585
yeah, grey morality is pretty childish

>>19383534
Yes

>>19382572
>modern media is all currently accessible
>media from the past has been filtered by the people of previous eras, who chose to preserve only what was of quality
In 100 years, people will still complain about how modern media sucks and books and movies from the 2010s were way better.

>>19382572
Is GRR Martin the Ultimate Nietzschean? An Ubermensch if you will?

>>19383534

>>19383534
The more time passes, the more blatant this truth will become to you. Just be ready to pick a side.

>>19383534
based.
people who can't into moral ambiguity are mouthbreathers

>>19382572
Unironically cape comics and movies are the last bastion of old literature.

>>19384344
>dude btk was also really affectionate towards small animals!! life is so morally complex bro pass the bong
kys

>>19384344
Good and evil are not ambiguous, actually.

Literature that offers no position on what is right and what is wrong is entirely pointless. An exercise in futility.

>>19384347
I don't collect soiboi reaction pics but le capeshit post with terrible stiff boomer art by Alex Ross is one of the most deserving cases of soiface imaginable. Imagine I just posted the one where you're flapping your hands spastically with your mouth open

>>19384368
Cope. Comics rules

>>19384352
>if you slaughter hoomans you are teh evil!!
>well except if you slaughter them for muh god, muh state, muh political ideals, muh aesthetics, muh ubermensch, muh...

Ha I saw this on the nigger subreddit as well. I need to stop visiting that tranny infested hellhole.

>>19383553
>>19383698
>>19384065
>>19384331
>>19384341
How do you people grapple with Nietzsche?

>>19385123
>>19384356
>"That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil" -Nietzsche

>>19385123
Nietzsche was a retard. Here you go.

>>19382572
You can tell these dumb memes are made by lowbrow genre fags who have never read any “old literature” in their life. They discredit ancient and medieval literature by pretending it must all be as superficial as a vacuous manchild fantasy concocted in the 20th century. Martin’s ‘moral greyness’ is such a strange thing to get upset about to since his works are actually quite moralistic and completely fail to disguise it.

>>19385113
>implying slaughtering anyone is good
cope, sinner.

>>19382572
>duh star wars is better than euripides because it's about good vs evil!
This criticism is more childish than what it is criticising

>>19385134
I need a better answer than that

Since nobody has brought it up yet

This meme was posted (and likely written) by Declan Finn, an author of YA-tier Christian Fiction
His social media and blog are hilarious, in a bit of a pathetic way

The description for his blog reads:
>This blog tracks a ten year epic of kick-starting a whole writing career, with spies and thrillers and now, vampires. I cover the creative process, stuff that blows up, history, philosophy, and theology. If you like any or all of the above, you'll like this one.

>>19385123
read Spinoza

>>19384347
You're gay

>>19382572
Not Mine

>>19382583
having fun with your thesaurus?

>>19382572
Books turned to shit when they had to be financially viable for high school-level reading instead of an elite literate class.

>reading anything post IR
low IQ move.

>>19383534
if this was b8 it was both funny and successful

>>19382572
Imagine thinking that the real world has a black and white objective morality and not a greyzone subjective one. You should go outside every once in a while anon

>>19385153
The pope has handwaved genocide before and so have governments. Soldiers don’t go to hell anon, not according to you rules you supposedly follow.

>>19385153
I guess God is a sinner then

>>19384344
all moral ambiguity is "if you kill them you will be just as bad as them!" tier idiocy

>>19382572
Go back to the other place.

>>19386272
t. only reads genreshit

>>19386245
the closesed thing to a grey zone is good people doing bad things and evil people doing good things, there is no actual grey zone, good and evil are still definite

>>19386284
Prove this. Who decides what is good and evil?

>>19386298
prove moral greyness exists

>>19386313
Morality differs on a cultural and even individual level. People have different opinions of what is good and bad and there is no objective way of proving which is which. At the end of the day it all boils down to what you believe in and your subjective values.

>>19386313
Also answer my question

>>19386355
>People have different opinions
dont care

>>19382572
Both have their purpose, I suppose.

>>19386363
Fine. Give up that easily then.

>>19382572

>transcendent, evident virtues

Fuck off forever.

>>19386371
its not giving up. other peoples opinions dont matter. if your "victory" is to smugly state that i am wrong because "technically you cant objectively prove torturing and murdering kids or whatever is morally wrong" then it serves as nothing but solidification that good and evil exists. you can disagree, but you're wrong. moral relativism is nothing but a tool to allow evil to thrive. you can mock me until the end of time and I will never feel shame for "giving up" as you like to say, nor will i ever be less correct.

>>19386394
That's a lot of words for saying "I'm right because I said so"

>>19386394
you reason like a woman

>>19386409
>>19386428
You both sound like redditors, please kill yourselves

>>19386428
>>19386409
seethe more about it. moral relativism and nihilism and those who preach them are literally the absence and opposition of good personified in ideal and material form, and you are nothing more than little agents of Evil doing its bidding spreading its filth and pain in this world like a pox upon the land, no better than the corrupted orcs and trolls of tolkeins literature. your kind have accomplished nothing but chewing up beauty and good and excreting out vileness and corruption of the material world and the human spirit. luckily for you Its not too late for you to redeem yourselves and let go of this edgy phase. the illusion is that you are chained down with shackles around your wrists unable to escape, but the reality is that its you who is gripping the chains tightly holding yourself in place, all you need to do is let go.

>>19386472
>>19386474
Stop being childish. Cicero believed that morals were relative while still cultivating virtue.

>>19386479
you're the one being childish

>>19386479
>Cicero believed
Dont care

>>19382579
>Bible
He is better off sucking an asian dick.

>>19386481
>>19386484
>asserting things without evidence and calling your opponents names isn't childish

>>19383534
yes

>>19386496
>heh, you dont have EVIDENCE that me torturing and killing innocents is Evil? check mate

like I said, you are nothing more than a pawn of evil in this world, plowing, fertilizing, and sowing the soil so that it might grow like a weed

>>19386517
It is evil to assert a proposition without being able to defend it. You are going to hell.

>>19386521
You can try to bring up every logical semantic you can think of it, none of it will ever change the fact that moral relativism and nihilism and those who preach them are represent the absence and opposition of the very concept of good personified in ideal and material form.

just remember, you dont have to be complacent in this. thats a choice you can make.

>>19386531
>moral relativism and nihilism and those who preach them are represent the absence and opposition of the very concept of good personified in ideal and material form.
Moral absolutists seem to be responsible for a lot more violence.

>>19386474
based

>>19386479
>muh romohomo midwit
shut the fuck up faggot

>>19386534
This. I say mudering people for being born a certain way is pretty fucking evil or believing something different makes the world a pretty shitty place.

>>19386534
>le the road to hell is le paved with le good intentions
fucking popper-tier shitwit rat lol, imagine getting your ontology from pinterest slogans

>>19386555
we should murder subhumans like you, just because something is hard does not mean it isn't right.

>>19386553
>>19386559
>>19386562
Where did all these teenagers come from

>>19386574
SODOMY IS SO HECKIN MORALLY AMBIGUOUS

kys

>>19382572
>moral relativism is a new thing
Why do retards assume this? Even candide has morally grey characters and meaningless world

>>19386577
It is virtuous

>>19386534
If thats what you want to believe then there certainly nothing i can say that is going to change your mind. I will say there's nothing inherently wrong with the act of violence though. And ill also say again, you dont have to give evil carte blanche to act freely via moral relativism, no one is forcing you. Vampires have to be invited into your home and all that.

>>19386587
Stop posting Aquinas memes. Aquinas was a sober and rational thinker. You are not. You are an emotional woman. Aquinas thought his beliefs were based in reason. You are just exclaiming crap in a tone of indignation and flailing your arms around. It's embarrassing. Please don't draw a connection between your mediocre intellect and the logicians of the Middle Ages again.

>>19386562
And I should murder you for wanting to murder people, welcome to the stone age where we solve conflicts with sticks and stones.

>>19386596
No, I want to murder you for being an insipid child indignant at those who are indignant at evil. He does it FOR FREE.

>>19386597
And I want to murder you for being violent and intolerant. See where this is going

>>19386591
there's no need to act childish and fling insults. I'm not irrational just because you wont acknowledge the rationale present here. what you are proposing is literally by definition the complete opposition to the very concept of good. it is by definition evil.

>>19386602
yes yes we know golem, all evil should be tolerated except the evil of intolerance. unironically neck yourself

>>19386604
Anon that's called begging the question and the medieval philosophers would have called you out on it immediately. We are debating whether moral categories are valid, and you are simply saying that your opponent is incorrect on the basis that is morally wrong to hold that belief -- in other words, instead of defending the thing being contested, you are simply assuming that it is true and then evaluating your opponent's argument from that standpoint. We are debating whether morality is true, but you are instead evading that discussion and simply saying that having said discussion is evil. The inevitable consequence of your standpoint is that even if one genuinely believes that there are no legitimate grounds for believing in the existence of absolute moral categories -- if one thinks their beliefs are in alignment with what is actually true, what is in fact the case about the world, if their desire is simply to be honest -- they are evil?

>>19384347
kek superman built like the boomer who works at the hardware store in my town

>>19386591
cope harder tranny. and dilate while you're also seething

>>19386626
Im not evading anything and i dont care about what medieval philosophers with completely different goals than me would think, i only posted that meme because it related to a secondary point in the corresponding post. moral relativism is literally by definition the opposition of good. your very assertion that morality can be "untrue" is inherently the opposition of good. it is inherently evil, and to be completely frank, the material fallout of folks such as yourself giving carte blanche to evil is more than enough auxiliary proof for me.

>>19386693
You think you are being "trad" but you are just being emotional and irrational, the complete inverse of what gentlemen and philosophers have believed to be good conduct for millennia.

>>19386708
sir, this is 4channel.net

>>19386708
see >>19386363
to add, I find it funny you think being "emotional" is such a bad thing here. You keep calling me a woman and trying to insult me in your anger, but Im completely and utterly comfortable with being accused of the crime of not being an oh so logical bug man who unironically thinks things like "but you have no EVIDENCE that that is Evil bro". you can mock me for it until the end of time. post screenshots of this conversation on r/atheism and get a million billion upvotes. I really dont care. All good needs to triumph is folks who wont open doors into this world for evil, and perhaps those who will shut doors opened by others. Anyway its 3 AM and this seems to have run its course so good night friend, and remember, its your choice to open these doors. there is nothing compelling you to do it.

>>19386708
>you are just being emotional and irrational, the complete inverse of what gentlemen and philosophers have believed to be good conduct for millennia.
Oof

>>19386740
You are doing a disservice to Catholics by appropriating their aesthetics.

>>19386781
Cry me a river.

>>19383534
>Things are neither good nor evil
>I am not a vegetable

>>19382579
nice try demiurge that corrupted the sacred text

>>19386786
You have issues. Please continue shitflinging on the internet to get better.

>>19383534
Yes.

>>19385194
Ginger bearded Norwood reapered fatso who spouts the most saccharine le wholesome chungus type of Christianity imaginable. This board has been letting this kid of soi archetype off the hook too easily, presumably so because it is plagued by it.

>>19382572
>older literature

It hardly qualifies as literature, at least by standard critical studies.The main criticism to Tolkien, and why it hasn't been as discussed as other classic authors, is the definite good vs evil character of his books.

Even the most extreme examples I can think of, such as Paradise Lost and Divine Comedy, leave degree of ambiguity in regards to what is good and evil.
Furthermore, while there is a possibility of regarding past facts as good or evil, it is impossible to determine the status of what is presently occurring unless a person has dubious metaphysical beliefs.

Kurt Vonnegut explains this view in this lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOGru_4z1Vc

>>19382572
>older literature

It hardly qualifies as literature, at least by standard critical studies.The main criticism to Tolkien, and why it hasn't been as discussed as other classic authors, is the definite good vs evil character of his books.

Even the most extreme examples I can think of, such as Paradise Lost and Divine Comedy, leave degree of ambiguity in regards to what is good and evil.
Furthermore, while there is a possibility of regarding past facts as good or evil, it is impossible to determine the status of what is presently occurring unless a person has dubious metaphysical beliefs.

Kurt Vonnegut explains this view in this lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOGru_4z1Vc

>>19382572
cringe

>>19382572
GRRM hates being called a nihilist.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

>Q: Early on, one critic described the TV series as bleak and embodying a nihilistic worldview, another bemoaned its “lack of moral signposts.” Have you ever worried that there’s some validity to that criticism?

>A: No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it’s moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic.

It wasn't even something like "that's how it works and people are naive", "well it depends on how you view nihilism", he straight up said no and stupid.

>>19386859
>is the definite good vs evil character of his books.
Is Frodo good or evil?

>>19386957
maybe frodo was good or evil, who knows. what we do know is that sam was a real nigga.

>>19382572

>>19386583
As a young man who has read both greek and biblical literature, I am very confused

>>19385795
in what thesaurus is the word demiurge

>>19386957
well at the end he put on the ring instead of throwing it in the crack, it took smeagle biting his finger off, dancing around to celebrate, and accidentally falling in.
Then afterwards frodo suffered from depression and mental breaks,
"it is gone forever, and all is dark and empty"
so he had to go on the ship to the secret elf continent.
I think the point is that though there is good and evil, man is weak and only angels (the elfs) are capable of avoiding evil, but even they fall (gil-galad), which is much like the story of fallen angels in the biblical sense or Milton

>>19386708
Anon is retarded
The more logical viewpoint would be something like, traditional morality justifies itself. People not being able to come up with an argument for it is no obstacle to this (no evidence of absence, etc).

>>19382579
"Good" and "evil" are defined by what you value, which is not universal. Your bible is semite trash.

>>19382572
> literature must be instructive
prots will never understand literature or any other form of beauty.
clearness of character is good because it is beautiful, monumental, great, heroic. halfways and "gray areas" are petty and plebeian.

>>19388113
Enjoy the pits of Hell sodomite

>>19386806
Gnostic CRINGE

>>19388429
based.

>>19383236
The Bible is the timeless and transcendent word of GOD

>>19382572
>he believes in good and evil

classic amerimutt puritan dogma

>>19388430
lol believing anything BUT gnosticism is cringe in 2021. i bet you still wear maga hats and jerk off to melania.

>>19388437
>americans invented dualism

>>19388440
Gnosticism is for edgy boys whose balls still haven't dropped, real men embrace the true Orthodox faith.

>>19388452
>orthobros talking about manhood
lmfao, don't make me laugh bro

>>19388445
they´re biggest promoter of "social justice" as a way to spread "goodness" to the world, i don´t know who invented it

Brawley are you in here

>>19388452
face the wall please

>>19388459
>can't distinguish the truth from its appropriation by the enemies of truth
ngmi. i bet you think buddhism is just mcmindfulness, too. lmfao

>>19388477
i should´ve say the entire anglosaxon socio-political worldview, they have acting like fucking plage to the western world

>>19382583
This. Evil flourishes in moral relativism. Moral relativism is equivalent to chaos and evil thrives in chaos.

The evil men will always try to drag you down to their level like crabs in a bucket. It is far easier to be selfish and amoral than it is to be good and righteous. In olden times, society knew it was of the utmost importance to help people become good and righteous because human beings will rarely do it themselves. Nowadays, literature is all moral relativism because society expects you to be evil and selfish.

>>19388489
that's fair. but gnosticism has as much to do with sjws as fundies have to do with Christ.

>>19388456
Cope more and then repent sinner

>>19385123
Nietzche was a faggot cuck
There ya go

>>19388572
>gnostics don't repent
noxious pseud nigger, don't tell me about my own belief system

>>19383534
>le centrist faec

>>19388590

>>19383534
Brainlet wojaks are my absolute favorite, and I hadn't seen this one before, thanks anon.

Anyone got any brainlet wojaks they want to post, feel free, I'd appreciate it.

>>19382572
Not sure where people even get the idea that GRRM's novels are like that, there's plenty of morally unambiguous characters.

>>19384341
Is a rose good or evil?

>>19382572
I HATE THE LUKEWARM
I HATE THE LUKEWARM
I HATE THE LUKEWARM

>>19386355
Christ, read Aristotle.

>>19382572
This is a profoundly gay and retarded thread. Please just go read without dragging down the discourse, and don't bring your woman-brain need for opinion confirmation to this website.

What ASOIAF says is pretty much that in life virtue is not always rewarded and vice not always punished. How do people get le ambiguous moral nihilism from that?

>>19386355
>Morality differs on a cultural and even individual level
This is some insane cope for explaining why some "beautiful and diverse" cultures practice shit like bride kidnapping and child labor.

>>19388623
There's like two and one of them gets killed in the very first book.

>>19382572
Noooooo I don't want reality I want le good and le evil obvious distinctions

You're the same type of people who think Machiavelli was evil because exposed things as they are.

>>19386830
Projection

>everyone is awful and the world is great and immoral
This is a superficial understanding of Martin's books. Once you look ok past the edgy facade, the moral status of every character is pretty clear. No character is perfect but plenty of them are good rather than bad or just ambiguous.

>>19388614
His status as a legitimate cuckold is well known.

>>19388602
>Calling someone a pseud when you're a gnostic

The level of cognitive dissonance

>>19388635
Roses don't have free will brainlet. That's why the story of the apple from Eden is so important. In a state of unconscious nature, there is no good or evil. Everything just proceeds automatically. By gaining sentience, we now have the burden of having to distinguish between good and evil and to conduct ourselves accordingly.

>>19382572
idiot.

>>19382572
old literature was never like this

>>19388772
It's called a ménage à trois, and it's French *chef's kiss*