/lit/ - Literature

>>19371983
Buy Academic Agent's course

>>19371996
Did you do that? What was you experience with such things?

>>19371983
>I want to learn classical rhetoric
Nice to see this, most of the threads I've seen here are generally anons that want to learn those modern "rethorical" techniques that are quite poor in content.

I've imparted some classes about classical rethoric in the uni this is the best way for leraning it (I also learnt it by receiving all the information from a professor), but I think that you could reach a lot of knowledge and skill by following a series of readings and excercises. (probably I'm making a chart this weekend, thanks for the idea).

First of all, you must get introduced; reading Rhetoric by Aristotle will be an excellent resource for getting into the figure of the orator and the genres of speeches. De inventione by Cicero will be also good for that (one of his earliest works when he was just a student); the book talks about the construction of the speech, it is important to speak not knowing the exact words that you will use but knowing what are you going to say, I mean the specific order of the subjects. Then you can keep studying Cicero works, exactly: Orator, De orator and Rhetorica ad Herennium.

Second, reading ancient speeches while identifying the parts of it (basically cheking where are the thing that you will learn in the fort book I mentioned). Apreciate how they trait all the subjects along the whole transcription of what the orator said. Thereafter you can start listening to pre 1960 orators, those in my opinion were the lasts in having a good technique and inventione. If there are vids see their gesture, hand positions (for this specific topic check what Chironomy is) and posture. Always see orators that speak your native language or those foreigners that you can understand well. Pet attention to the musicality of their voices, the cadence and rhythm.

Rhetoric is the art of speaking well, you will not only learn about speeches; this art will improve your ability for talking and expressing. But always remember future rhetoranon, when speaking always say what you believe and defend, is better to say the truth than getting humillated by trying to say something that will be hard to take out from your mouth. The orator is, as Cato said, a "vir bonus peritum dicende".

>>19372797
Not OP. I'm glad for your response as i think OP will. Please do a chart on Rhetoric, I've been searching for one for some time now.

>>19371983
>In general, the things I wish to be able to speak about are likely to be highly unpopular anyway.
Then why the fuck do you want to learn it?
As Cicero wrote
>The business of an orator to speak in a manner adapted to persuade
So why the fuck are you interested in rhetoric if you're not interested in persuading?
Anyway, if you want to learn rhetoric in the modern day for the modern day, then it's quite simply reapplying the regime outlined by Quintilian but applying it to modern media.
Καιρος motherfucker!
That means you have to learn to mimic tiktok and youtubers patterns of speaking, maybe twitter too.
Don't like it? Then rhetoric isn't for you. If you want to actually learn rhetoric, that is to affect the souls/minds of men, then you have to tailor your decorum to your audience.
As Quintilian wrote:
>“he who has a speech to make should consider what he has to say; before whom, in whose defense, against whom, at what time and place, under what circumstances he has to speak; what is the popular opinion on the subject, what the prepossessions of the judge are likely to be; and finally of what we should express our deprecation or desire.
you can't avoid it.
He also says that your reading must be broad, across many styles, Dionysius of Halicarnassus echoes these sentiments. I'm not saying you cannot and mustn't read Isocrates or Demosthenes and their speeches, but what I am saying is to be a well rounded modern orator/rhetorician you have to couple that with tik tok.
Quintillian's argument is that if you copy from great writer's alone you'll discover nothing new, so you should borrow widely and look at:
>appropriateness with which those orators handle circumstances and persons involved in the various cases they were engaged
How do you do that?
KEEP WRITING.
Write scripts for tik tok videos, for v-logs. Make you own. See what works. Then keep working at it, incorporating new and old techniques and keep getting better

Bump

Bump out of interest

>>19371983
Other people have made some great suggestions, but I'll add that a great way is to practice. Speak to yourself in the mirror for a bit of time each day. Consider reading some great speeches aloud and take note of when you say something and it sounds effective.

>>19371983
Aristotle, Cicero, Quintillian wrote books on this. Learn the theory and practice them by actually writing.
Secondly, get rhetoric pdfs from the 16th-19th ce on archive.org and do the same thing.
Memorize the jargon and practice the theory.
Lastly, read a shit ton from the canon and id rhetorical/literary devices when they pop up. Even better if you file them away under the appropriate category.

>>19371996
Is there anything special about that book? I mean what makes it a good book?

>t. mocked the soft-skill classes offered at uni for free
your own fault retard.

>>19372895
ticktock is pornography it does not wield even the slightest in intrigue and persuasion. Nothing is built of standing influence online, it is all brittle and fake, all that was not has been scrubbed long ago, and most do not care for what remains

>>19372859
Thank you very much for your comment. I'll make it this weekend. Probably I'm going to post it here or in a new thread.

Don't bother starting reading the Classics of Rhetoric, e.g. Cicero, Quintilian. Read Corbett's Rhetoric for the Modern Student. Other good books include 'The Trivium', and 'Shakespeare's Uses of the Arts of Language' by Sister Miriam Joseph, Rhetorical Style by Fahnestock, and A history of Literary Criticism by Habib for more general literary reading.

It's worth also reading a linguistics book such as the popular one by Fromkin, or another textbook by Yule. Argumentation Theory is also relevant to rhetoric, so consider argumentation books by Walton, and also the history book, 'Fundamentals of Argumentation Theory', by Routledge.


>>19371996
>shilling AA
Total. Fucking. Shite.

AA is a pseudointellectual rhetorician boomer! He associates with dumb boomers that copycat "based" "takes" on their Twitter timeline. His online courses are complete wastes of money. Several hundreds for a shitty lecture course, where free lectures are widely available online, as well as there being actual books that can be read instead. His entire audience are illiterates, who flock to AA because they cannot read books or form their own opinions independently.

>>19372797
>probably I'm making a chart this weekend, thanks for the idea
Please, do.

>>19372895
>write scipts for tiktok videos to become a better orator
holy shit dude, there are so many layers of wrong in this advice
not hating, have you actually considered how it might be retarded and wrong?

>>19371983
>Question: How to learn rhetoric in current year?
The same way as hundreds of years before: Aristotle's Rhetoric.

>>19375258
People make millions of dollars from shilling shit on those platforms. How is that not effective persuasion? If you want to learn to persuade people in the 21st century, you have to understand the 21st century discourse.
In the 20th century you'd have to understand television.
Why are you so unwilling to accept it?
>>19378320
No.

>>19376751
Illiterate? Cmon man. He's the based king of Youtube. Best Evola enjoyer on the web. BTFOs coomers and PSA Stitch lolbergs. You could reverse engineer his courses but also doing just that would be the best choice available considering Academia even dark academia is fake gay Peterson worship.

>>19378543
I was talking about something bigger in scope than selling and advertising. That will always have its place. Rhetoric is an art in the sense that it can be used to affect the inner world of people, it can shake and soothe. The most knowledgeable of their craft are very aware of this and know of the great danger that comes with it, some get lost in that power, but the true and great masters know to limit themselves.

>>19371983

>>19376751
>Don't bother starting reading the Classics of Rhetoric, e.g. Cicero, Quintilian.
This is unacceptable. They are the base for everything about this topic, and their advice is immortal.
>'The Trivium'
Is ok but aaonly after the classics.
>>19378331
Aristotle's Rhetoric is not enough, but is a very important work.
>>19378543
Persuasion is to make a person follow a determinated idea by appealing to his feelings. Online platforms are just a bunch of brainwahing machinnes; a big amount of well desgined stimulus that engage people to the content it shows, they found the way for doing that a long time ago, just see what MKUltra is.
>>19379440
>Rhetoric is an art in the sense that it can be used to affect the inner world of people, it can shake and soothe.
Very good point.

>>19378543
>making millions on tiktok is persuasion
t. actual tard

>>19379440
>Rhetoric is an art in the sense that it can be used to affect the inner world of people, it can shake and soothe.
Let's not let this thread die, anons. I'm with OP on this, I believe it's important.

>>19380883
>misquotes and paraphrases to remove actual meaning
>projects own inadequacies
Explain how successfully using a medium, however degenerate it is, to make millions of dollars is not the effective use of persuasion?
Persuade me it isn't!

>>19381054
Money is not a metric of persuasion for the type OP wants to get good at.
Tiktok is aimed at adolescents who have no sound judgement or developed rational thinking and their choices are based on factors that don't exactly figure in the adult world.
Saying that learning how to persuade teens on a platform where they go explicitly to be shown and 'persuaded' by others like them into doing little dances and making funny faces is the same as persuading a room full of adults on a difficult and sensitive subject with real-life consequences is being willfully retarded.
Your opinion is trash because you seem to think everything boils down to money.

>>19372797
>Rhetoric chart
Oh yea, it's speech time.

>>19381081
>persuading a room full of adults on a difficult and sensitive subject with real-life consequences
u do realize that the so called 'serious adults' would gladly pay more attention to good looking individuals with a good voice,even if they possess little to no knowledge.

>>19381284
Indicative of what rooms you've been in

>>19381447
ur average parliament,ur corporate board rooms,ur 'policy making' "forums" n shiet even if its made of literally serious people .its just human nature anon and u can't help it.however with that said u can consider giving a reading of the forefathers of america like say jefferson or john adams.

>>19381466
The way you write does not make me very confident that you spend the majority of your time in the presence of worthwhile people doing worthwhile things, and I think you're talking about your ideas of how things are (which you got from observing from afar or through secondary material) instead of how they actually are.

>>19381530
fine then,u wish to persuade the listeners eh?y not use numbers ,statistics and pictures and argue along the lines of 'numerical' and 'bayesian'?y even bother with the fancy jargon and long sentences with several commas and semicolons,especially when ur audience is more prone than ever in losing their attention after encountering a bunch of new words and latin phrases?
if i were u i would try the normie way of communicating things .However do try to use simple latin phrases as it really helps in condensing ur sentences.

>>19381579
Dude, you hit space before punctuation marks.
Being literate is not fancy jargon, go read some books.

>>19371983
Cromwell would be a very good example of what Cicero here speaks of.

>Napoleon does by no means seem to me so great a man as Cromwell. His enormous victories which reached over all Europe, while Cromwell abode mainly in our little England, are but as the high stilts on which the man is seen standing; the stature of the man is not altered thereby. I find in him no such sincerity as in Cromwell; only a far inferior sort. No silent walking, through long years, with the Awful Unnamable of this Universe; "walking with God," as he called it; and faith and strength in that alone: latent thought and valor, content to lie latent, then burst out as in blaze of Heaven's lightning! Napoleon lived in an age when God was no longer believed; the meaning of all Silence, Latency, was thought to be Nonentity: he had to begin not out of the Puritan Bible, but out of poor Sceptical Encyclopedies. This was the length the man carried it. Meritorious to get so far. His compact, prompt, every way articulate character is in itself perhaps small, compared with our great chaotic inarticulate Cromwell's. Instead of "dumb Prophet struggling to speak," we have a portentous mixture of the Quack withal! Hume's notion of the Fanatic-Hypocrite, with such truth as it has, will apply much better to Napoleon than it did to Cromwell, to Mahomet or the like,—where indeed taken strictly it has hardly any truth at all. An element of blamable ambition shows itself, from the first, in this man; gets the victory over him at last, and involves him and his work in ruin.

bump for chart

>>19371983
There is no point to Rhetoric in the modern world. People are so ideologically consumed if you disagree with them over even a minute point they will strawman your argument and ostracize you.

>>19383121
Doesn't matter, we must try.

I am not interested in learning to become an orator, I just want to read about the societal and human implications of rhetoric. Any books on this? Already read Michelstaedter.

>>19381851
>judge men not by their actions but by the perpetration of society around them
I am voting pseud on this one.

>>19383121
>People are so ideologically consumed if you disagree with them over even a minute point they will strawman your argument and ostracize you.
/thread

>>19383121
To bridge the divide requires effective rhetoric.

>>19381851
This is purple salad. Read Orwell's essay on politics and the English language.

ways to get passed the word filters:
S()y
Soi
Soay
Souyee
Onions
$oy
S*y
S#y

>>19371983
It's sad that Rhetoric is just thrown away as a collegiate class in most schools. The only college I know that teaches Rhetoric is Hillsdale.

>>19384198
I learned Rhetoric in Highschool when I was a part of Academic Decathlon and the Debate Club. Unfortunately the "Debate club" was shitty and basically scripted by the insane teachers who ran the clubs for their schools, but when the teams from different schools would meet up we would always talk way more shit outside of the event. But I'm sure none of this shit is even available anymore.

>>19384276
The people that did Debate School during my time were always the pretentious types. Don't know why but they just were.

>>19384336
I mean the nature of the debate club is "I am right, you are wrong" so yeah I can see that.

>>19384351
It attracted the people who were only there because it "looked good" on their resume. The people who used academically focused extra curricular activities as a way to feel superior

>>19384380
There was plenty of that, but I was primarily a theater kid trying to get out of my comfort zone. Learned a lot.

>>19384276
I dislike how debate is taught in such places. You're not expected to bring up a nice point, you're expected to overload them with several statements which are spewed so fast they cannot be answered.

>>19384384
>I was primarily a theater kid trying to get out of my comfort zone. Learned a lot.
That's good to hear. I was the music program kid.

>>19371983
>>19371996
>>19372229
>>19372797
>>19372859
>>19372895
>>19373975
>>19374903
>>19374922
>>19374954
>>19375004
>>19375012
>>19375258
>>19376222
>>19376751
>>19376957
>>19378320
>>19378331
>>19378543
>>19378734
>>19379440
>>19380448
>>19380464
>>19380883
>>19380885
>>19381054
>>19381081
>>19381108
>>19381284
>>19381447
>>19381466
>>19381530
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>>19381851
>>19383121
>>19383409
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>>19384178
>>19384198
>>19384276
>>19384336
>>19384351
>>19384380
>>19384384
>>19384398
>>19384400
let me just make it clear at this point that, if I were not positively rooted to the spot of this world by my compulsive need to maintain a stream of vituperative language trained directly upon the humanity as a whole, I would long since have closed this screen in protest at the egregious pretentiousness of barely literate con-artists and cripples expatiating as if they were divinely-appointed cultural helmsmen almost invariably the response, in my experience, when someone tries to show the world what a master of language and rhetoric they are and ends up squashed like a bug on a windscreen. All my words are picked carefully for the clarity of composition and expression when conveying the thoughts which I intend to signify with the signifiers of verbal or written language. If you had any basis in the philosophy of language, then you would know the importance of speaking with robust verbosity in order to MORE ACCURATELY depict the symbols and images of consciousness for those whom you intend to receive said signifiers of linguistic constructions. isn't it - or shouldn't it be - offensive to your velleities of intelligence and human decency. I suppose, the grotesque attempts of a person of low intelligence and extremely limited culture to counterfeit the thinking and writing style of someone of high intelligence and vast culture like myself

>>19384398
Yep, it also didn't help that my teacher was an old cunt Boomer who still worshipped Reagan. She would listen to our initial arguments and then just say "No, you are supposed to say this..." I got the biggest kick when I dropped out of the club because I got the lead in a play and had to focus on that and she tried to threaten that she could force me drop out of theater.

>>19378320
He's just being realistic. If you want to be effective you'll have to learn how to speak effectively in social media language. Doesn't have to be TikTok but the point is if you go around talking like an 18th century gentlemen you're probably not going to win anyone over.

>>19384413
Based, cringe and red pilled

>>19384413
no cap this nibba be bussin frfr tho

>>19376222
I will try to keep it alive.

>>19384413
>>19383961

>>19381593
Think it's intentional. Rhetoric is not meant for autists. Try a different subject.

>>19384433
u wot m8

>>19384424
tell me you were playing Hamlet or gtfo

>>19384460
Bamp

>>19384413
You have less fluency than wit. Single tone, mostly literal, purple prose. And what "symbols and images", only one phrase that is, are contained in your figurative lines , are cliche and unimaginative, to my genuine disgust. Further, you lack the rhythmic flow of natural speech and poetry, and seem to simply write down your thoughts as if you were reciting a technical manual. There is little variation, with no consideration for the wider structure and theme of the text. And you cannot think beyond the linear 1, 2, 3 of a buzzing wasp. The text is not so much an meandering complaint, than vomit on the page. No concepts are elucidated, and no development of such nonexistent concepts exist, beyond that mentioned insipid whine. All in all, you are quite poor in rhetorical skill, and clearly have nothing to say.

>>19381081
>Tiktok is aimed at adolescents who have no sound judgement or developed rational thinking and their choices are based on factors that don't exactly figure in the adult world.
Maybe if Nicias better understood the demagogic nationalism of Alcibiades he may have persuaded the Athenians against the Sicilian Expedition - oh wait, but the nationalists had no sound judgement and no developed rational thinking and therefore not the target of rhetoric?
Rhetorical question - you already agreed it is persuasion. You agree it is persuasion! Why are you splitting hairs like this? If you're going to be good at rhetoric you need to address a wide range of audiences, even retarded tik tok audiences.
>Your opinion is trash because you seem to think everything boils down to money.
No, I said money is an effective metric of persuasion. I didn't say it all boils down to. Now can you present a superior metric?
Money is a measure of your time. Tik Tok as a waste of time is therefore doubly effective as a measure of what people pay their attention to.
You can't be trying to make me swallow the idea that the things people do not pay attention to are good metrics of how persuasive a discourse is.

>>19384178
>he doesn't know
ꜱoy

What you think bros?

>>19372895
Vapidity becomes you

>>19385637
Where's Rhetorica ad Herennium?

>>19371983
There is some good shit here, an important aspect of speach is knowing what you're talking about. Being knowledgeable is you sword and sheild regaurding the authority of speach you seem to wish to command.

>>19385705
>Where's Rhetorica ad Herennium?
Shit, I forgot to put it on the chart. My bad. I'll fix it now, just wait.

>>19385705
Fixed.

>>19372895
You are the definition of an absolute idiot who thinks he’s smart.

>>19385833
bene fecisti, amice

>>19385913

>>19385913
quick q how do u tie ur shoes like that so it doesn't shoe the bow i don't get it my dad was working class

>>19385919
they are velcro in disguise fren

>>19385637
Good work, Anon, thank you a lot.

>>19384413
faggot
>>19384456
I know it's intentional, he's still a retard

How do I BTFO my Mom using facts and logic? She's a libtard and needs to see the light of Reason.

>>19388160
use stats and stoodies.if she's a libtard,she must trust the scientific method.if she's not aware of it,educate her on that.

>>19385833
Great, but I'd put Rhetorica ad Herennium to read before On the Orator.

>>19388188
>Scientific method
Umm, sweetie that has been debunked

>>19388443
bad b8

There's some good recent works to be found; ward farnsworths book on rhetoric is top shelf.

>>19385977
you're welcome!