/lit/ - Literature

>>19350700
>I was expecting it to be particularly relatable or some kind of astute commentary on western millennials
> It's dull.

Is western millennial life anything else? The people in Rooney’s stories are disaffected and plugged out members of the upper middle class.

>>19350710
but being in a dull setting isnt an excuse for dull writing. Stoner was relatively dull, that was kind of the point, showing a boring mans mediocre life, but reading it was not dull like reading normal people is.

I read about 100 pages before dropping, I was recommended it also by a woman because the "guy and girl are both actually realistic" but as I'm sure your seeing that is not true at all, the girl is your standard "not like other girls" cliche who's noticed by the "popular jock with a hidden soft side he only shows to her" cliche. They remain that way for as much as I read.

>>19350700
The self-centered psyche of a rich, liberal woman manifests itself in a book that wants so desperately to be “deep” and fails miserably. There is no cohesion, no originality, no depth of thought, no grace. There is only arrogance and midwittery. It’s criticisms of society are derivative, and the author seems to think that repeating the same old lines about muh white men and muh capitalism that has been endorsed by every corner of the rotten corpse of “academia” is brave. To put it in 4chan terms, it is soulless.
I am pretty sure she is an industry plant.

>>19350717
A lot of people would disagree with you. one of the main criticisms of stoner is that it’s dull. I enjoy both rooney and williams though

>>19350730
yeah it was hilarious that she shoehorned in that Connell had read the fucking communist manifest in highschool.

>>19350739
>The self-centered psyche of a rich, liberal woman manifests itself in a book that wants so desperately to be “deep” and fails miserably. There is no cohesion, no originality, no depth of thought, no grace. There is only arrogance and midwittery. It’s criticisms of society are derivative, and the author seems to think that repeating the same old lines about muh white men and muh capitalism that has been endorsed by every corner of the rotten corpse of “academia” is brave. To put it in 4chan terms, it is soulless.
You do realize Rooney is critiquing this very thing, right? She dislikes the faux-radicalism, bland takes and irony of the 'cultured' upper and upper middle class

>>19350758
Those people are stupid pseuds that only comprehend the bullet point plot elements and cant appreciate the totality of the art.

>>19350700
>astute commentary
>Rooney
>astute
The stupid bitch is so far up her ass she can taste her own marxist brain farts.

>>19350784
Just like OP and the majority of /lit/ lol

>>19350801
>>19350803
case in point

>>19350773
>Rooney is critiquing this very thing, right?
She's doing no such thing. She criticizes nothing. Her shit "young marxist radicals" characters are never shown to be flawed in their worldview and never lose a debate or have to face their own shortcomings. They're all the self-inserts of the author, and she completely believes in the bullshit she makes them spew.
There is zero subtlety or ambiguity in Rooney's work. It's the work of a true midwit.

>>19350803
>>19350811
>if i say "no u" i'll win the debate!
Classic rooneytard enjoyer. You must be so stoked to have the possibility of reading the same exact book 3 times!

>>19350773
You say that like it's a satire piece. For all parts which actually amount to any value are downplayed by white girl wish fulfillment. I understand where you are coming from but you have to admit it's hard to ignore the shortcomings of Rooney's writing

>>19350816
>Her shit "young marxist radicals" characters are never shown to be flawed in their worldview and never lose a debate or have to face their own shortcomings
Just like reality for these sheltered types. This is the whole fucking point. You are not supposed to like all of what the characters say and do. It's supposed to be trite and banal and typical pseudo-leftist bullshit, because that is the life of millennials within the 'cultured' world. Can you seriously not read anything beyond what an author puts on a page for you? Do you need to be spoonfed meaning and critique like a child reading YA? You're retarded

>>19350710
>>19350758
>>19350803
>>19350811
You're a stupid piece of shit and you have shit taste. It's useless that you keep trying to justify yourself.

>>19350700
TAO LIN > SALLY ROONEY

>>19350831
>You are not supposed to like all of what the characters say and do. It's supposed to be trite and banal and typical pseudo-leftist bullshit
Absolutely shit interpretation debunked both by the books and by Rooney's interviews, where she reveals herself to be IDENTICAL to her characters.

It's hilarious that the only way to make rooney's shit decent is to make up an interpretation where everything she says should actually be taken as satire or self-criticism. That's how stupid her ideas are.

>>19350846
I admire your dedication to toilet stomping these pseuds, anon.

>>19350831
>Do you need to be spoonfed
What a stupid, arrogant, ignorant, retarded PIECE OF SHIT you are. You can't even be bothered to read a fucking interview where this mongoloid clearly states that she believes everything her equally retarded characters write. No, that's too much effort for a mongoloid shit-eater like you. You just have to come here and spread your retardation around, like the diseased putrid bucket of shit you are. Fucking kill yourself, shitstain. You're worthless and you always will be. Your parents must be real pieces of shit to have produced a hemorroid like you.

>>19350831
>muh "it's secretly a subtle satire guyz" argument
rooneytards' desperation is hysterical. Just admit that you liked a retarded book.

>>19350846
>It’s as if the fullness of Connell’s character has been predetermined. It’s Calvinism for the secular age, class-defining personhood, i.e., Marxism. The result is a hyperflatness, a hypersmoothness. There is relatively little agency at play, relatively few decisions being made. He’s poorer; she’s richer. He’s more attractive; she’s initially less attractive. Connell’s social status is the reason he keeps the relationship a secret; Marianne’s wealth causes her to blossom at Trinity.

>None of this is meant to dismiss the novels because, in a way, Rooney has this all precisely right. The truest expression of what it feels like to live in the modern, postcapitalist political sphere is this oppressive feeling of lacking agency, propelled by a current of politics and power dynamics that are out of our control. It also feels realistic that the adults are the ones who actually have control — making life-altering decisions for them. The young folks are playing by the rules of older generations.

>The politics of Rooney’s worlds define her characters’ personalities and interactions, but those characters also seem fully resigned to them. There is no interest in revolt, no interest in change. This is, I would imagine, particularly comforting to older generations, as it relegates talk of revolution to tongue-in-cheek asides. When, for instance, Connell rides the bus to meet Marianne at a café, he sees a protest but doesn’t notice what it’s for. “The household tax or something,” he says to Marianne, whereupon she quips, “Well, best of luck to them. May the revolution be swift and brutal.” One can imagine this line being said at a dinner party in an affluent suburb, the adults in the room getting a kick out of it. Kids and their socialism these days! Rooney’s characters are just sufficiently certain that the status quo will persist that any complaints or underlying frustrations come to seem ultimately superficial. In the end, politics isn’t actually that big of a deal. It’ll all work out.

>And it does. The ending is a provisionally happy one; love and meritocracy prevail. And yet, Connell maintains the upper hand, as at the start. It’s a dynamic tied up in the politics of gender and abuse, which in this case seem to override concerns of class. But the lesson is that you are who you are, not who you want to be.

https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/sally-rooneys-normal-people-is-politically-complacent.html

You need to read brando sando you little baby? hmm? you gonna cwy wittle baby wah wah expwain the theme to me wah wah wwite out evewy message expwicitwy i dont get it wah

>>19350861
holy seethe

THE TRUTH IS OBVIOUSLY SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE. ROONEY DOES SINCERELY HOLD MANY OF THE BELIEFS HER CHARACTERS CLAIM TO, BUT SHE IS ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY CRITIQUING THE WAY THEY, LIKE MANY MILLENNIALS AND ZOOMERS, ONLY SUPERFICIALLY HOLD THESE VIEWS.

>>19350801
This is like a worse version of the Goodwill Hunting bar scene kek

>>19350816
>the fetishisation of 'untouched nature' was intrinsically patriarchal and nationalistic.
>I like houses better than fields, they're more poetic because they have more people in them

Unironically what did she mean by this? Did I get filtered by Sally Rooney?

>>19351105
that's just a femoid's train of thought when there's not a dick there to distract her

>>19350866
>>19350986
but at no point does she critique the ideas themselves
she critiques the young for their hypocrisy, in failing to live up to and act on their leftist ideals
but the ideals go unquestioned

>>19351139
i'm screen-capping this

>>19350773
>the entire book is meant to be ironic!
Some 5d chess going on, right? Lmao.

>>19351170
why

>>19351105
1. The Right often fetishises and celebrates the natural world as the source of all goodness: either as conservatism (the creative hand of god, garden of eden, romanticist celebrations of the power of nature, combined with an enlightenment understanding of its elements); or as fascism (darwinian evolution and predatory hierarchies as a model to be emulated in society; returning to man's natural state) -- both are set against a Left that priorities the human and artificial: either as liberalism (cosmopolitanism, individualism, scientism), or as socialism/communism (the marxists' belief in the mutability of reality; the exploitation and mastering of nature; overcoming and altering humanity's evolved characteristics (as violent, demonic males)).

2. Just some banal aside.

>>19351190
because combined with the previous post i find it very amusing

>>19351164
again, your engagement with art is on par with a child's. if a rooney character's general disposition isn't 'critique' enough i don't know what to tell you. maybe go and have a check-up for traces of autism

>>19351245
you don't know what to tell him because you have nothing to say, i hope someone breaks your hand with a hammer like the cheater in "casino" so you can't write any more shitty awful posts.

>>19351257
lol

>>19351245
I'm not the other anon. I guess we are all children.

We're perfectly entitled to hate a book based on the vapid and conformist politics of its author, which frame her critique of her generation and class.

Imagine if, just for a moment, a male character says something sensible, and coherent, and he isn't immediately bested by the sophisticated and brilliant women around him, and the reader is forced to actually consider both sides of the argument, and gain a deeper understanding of the world in which the characters and the author live -- and even if, after that moment, he is shown to be a psychologically maladjusted, self-righteous and resentful man-child, forever at odds with the zeitgeist, incapable of genuine empathy for the woman whose attention he craves -- then perhaps this novel would not be such a colossal waste of words.

Tbh I just hate her for her absurd anti-Israel stunt and moral cowardice; I haven't actually read the novel and don't know what I'm talking about -- but there are too many books and too little time, especially when I'm typing out long, verbose, and suspiciously autobiographical paragraphs on an anime website.

>>19351105
It makes some bro science sense that female brains would process "signs of civilization" = good and male brains "signs of untouched nature" = good because the former is better suited for childcare and the latter for hunting resources. Just my retarded two cents.

Her use of the two buzzwords is irrelevant. Patriarchy and nationalism have long sense lost all relevance as meaningful concepts. She has a vague intuition of a>b and her brain short circuits to interject meaningless jargon that imposes a societally agreed upon inequality as an appeal to authority. None of these fuckers can ever put forth a naked intuition. It's always a shoehorned appeal to authority. Their pathological need for consensus not only drains meaning out of the world, it also contributes to the equally vague accusation of soulessness. Soulessness: lacking intimacy of the self or signs of self derived expressions. A deferment to consensus.

>>19351281
>We're perfectly entitled to hate a book based on the vapid and conformist politics of its author, which frame her critique of her generation and class.
i wonder who's being vapid here

>>19351341
Garbage source material yields garbage discussion

>>19351341
you. you are being vapid.

>>19351288
kind of a cool idea
how would one test this?

>>19351281
>Imagine if, just for a moment, a male character says something sensible, and coherent, and he isn't immediately bested by the sophisticated and brilliant women around him, and the reader is forced to actually consider both sides of the argument, and gain a deeper understanding of the world in which the characters and the author live --
You’re a moron who needs the moral of the story to be written in bright neon lettering or else you’ll miss it, is essentially what you’re saying.

>>19351565
well, this board's favorite author *is* dostoevsky...

>>19351565
Also by the way, in normal people the main male character is meant to be a working class guy who is out of his depth and alienated by the upper middle class faux-radicals that rooney is directly critiquing. This is why he is spoken over. This is why what he says does not seem to be as profound or whatever it is you want. This is part of the story and the critique that you just don’t get. Why? Because you don’t want to get it. You bend over backwards to hate because you have nothing going for you but an aesthetic of devotion to classics which you have never read.

guys will really say "girls are so vapid" and post on /lit/

>>19350816
What is the plot of this book, what is the story? All I've read of it are the excerpts you've provided, and I can't for the life of me even begin to fathom what kind of story this author could be crafting. Is it just about the social life of a group of insufferable retards? Do people like these characters truly exist?

>>19351679
>What is the plot of this book, what is the story?
two college-aged girls (former lovers) befriend a slightly older couple and the main character starts having an affair with the man. relationships proceed to spiral out of control, but in a nice understated way. also it is not the book in the op, it's her first. it has a really dumb and boring title

>>19350700
its a meme dude. she's a handpicked chosenite writing garbage with no merit

>>19351744
>chosenite
a whatenite?

>>19351620
Correct, women are inferior to men.

>>19350832
>anon has like 10 of these images
the hero we need. we have to kill this annoying cunt to get her simps to stop shilling her here. it's time to take the arrogant midwit bitch down a peg.

>>19351749
You know.. Runs all the banks and media but claims to be persecuted. Those guys.

>>19351751
Bobmob.. You're scaring me...

>>19351755
no, i don't know. who or what are you talking about

>>19351749
a member of a certain tribe
since she already forcibly inserted "muh antisemitism" in the pages i am certain she's either tribal crypto or shabbos. the bitch eats her sandwiches on bagels. like all the rest she got in on nepotism. maybe her mommy or daddy had connections, maybe she was picked as a shabbos goy, who knows. she's kosher, bought and paid for, 30 pieces of silver. her "popularity" is the result of big marketing dollars invested. she didn't get in on her own merit. she's a hack, a human billboard, an intellectual prostitute.

>the hero we need. we have to kill this annoying cunt to get her simps to stop shilling her here. it's time to take the arrogant midwit bitch down a peg.

>>19351761
yeah, how bout them meds huh pal

>>19351761
Have you ever heard of Anglo-Jews? Ezra Pound said it well
>You let in the Jew and the Jew rotted your empire, and you yourselves out-jewed the Jew. Your allies in your victimized holdings are the bunyah, you stand for NOTHING but usury. And above metal usury; you have built up bank usury, 60% against 30 and 40%, and by that you WILL NOT be saved. Corrupting the whole earth, you have lost yourselves to yourselves.
Ezra Pound

>In brief, the great migration from the countryside to the towns began. The age of mechanized man was approaching. The new plutocracy and those of the old Whigs who were naturally perverse began their final and terrible offensive against the old country gentlemen. It was all the more terrible because the old “county families” were not just uprooted and annihilated. They were subjected to numerous mercantile blood transfusions until they had to undergo the final humiliation of accepting Jewish sons-in-law to save the ground to which they pathetically clung.
William Joyce

>>19351766
Get off the internet Sally. Your days are numbered you vapid whore. You're a two bit hack and this attempt at viral marketing is going to be your downfall. I dedicate the rest of my life to literarily murdering you. Enjoy your 15 minutes while it lasts. I will end your career.

Fuck you. Fuck your hand-held entitlement. Fuck your nepotism. Fuck your gimme-dats good goy prize. You're an establishment patsy, a cheap whore for the night for some casting couch publishing house.

>>19351781
OO TELL EM WHY U MAD

>>19351796
>>19351770
I know you're a girl on 4chan and you feel out of place but stop typing like a fag. Just write normally. Nothing is going to happen if you aren't conspicuous and quirky for five seconds. You may even find it liberating to just be a person for once, instead of a walking series of quirky MPDG fashion statements.

>>19351802
calm down elliot

Has anyone else noticed how trannies exclusively write in lower case? I’ve been noticing this a lot

>>19351829
ur very smart anon

>>19350801
>"Did your parents have a favorite child?"
Well I don't know, did you parents regularly have sex with you? What a retarded non-sequitur

>>19351825
Post another Ellmann thread, those went a lot better for you.

>>19351829
I laughed, its probs cause they online all the time so they drc about grammer and shit

>>19351866
what

>>19351761
I am Jewish. Can you stop?

>>19350801
I might be reading this wrong but it seems to be portraying these people in a bad way intentionally

>>19351781
based

>>19352115
congrats, you're smarter than pretty much anyone in this thread (not a major achievement, perhaps)

>>19351281
>Tbh I just hate her for her absurd anti-Israel stunt
cringe

>>19351565
enlighten us on the moral of the story in Normal People, senpai desu

>>19351988
No one gives a shit, kike.

>>19350801
did you do this commentary? I almost hate it more than rooney

>>19350700
That is because this book is nothing more than veiled chick-lit similar to Danielle Steel or E.L. James. Marianne is a self-insert of Sally Rooney, the overlooked girl in high-school who is so amazingly unique and brilliant in her personality that the school giga-chad and then everyone she ever speaks to at Trinity (who we are meant to think of as all incredibly intelligent people despite revealing nothing but basic sixth form political opinions) are in utter adoration of her. But of course, we also have another side to wish-fulfilment in the 50 shades grain where Marianne goes for abuser after abuser to "get back" at Connell and because she enjoys complete sexual submission. The book makes much more sense if you read it as Marianne being wish-fulfilment for Sally Rooney, but then that makes you despite it as a vapid, self-indulgent blogpost of novel length.

>reading a woman
>on the rec of a woman

>>19350773
>Joke's on the /pol/tards, she was only pretending to be retarded!

I hate to say it but people expect too much out of a 27 year old girl, the people who would relate to her, and the media who would champion her.
There are things in life that it's reasonable to be cynical about and accept at face value.

>>19353269
She's not young. Jane Austen was writing her best known novels at that age.

>>19353348
The exceptions that always prove the rule.
Sure Jane Austen did it so we should expect the same out of every 20 something year old girl? I simply don't think so anon.

>>19351281
>Tbh I just hate her for her absurd anti-Israel stunt
Oy vey

I visit lit maybe once a month; why is there always a Sally Rooney bashing thread?

>>19353501
oh id like to bash her if you know what i mean ;)

>>19350700
>Can anyone else articulate better why this book is bad?
It’s bad because people can only write what they know and most millennials (like Rooney) are soulless dull and entitled pricks who have led lives devoid of any significant challenge or even emotional hardship. They can’t write about anything interesting because they haven’t done or thought anything interesting.

>>19350801
That’s a pretty accurate depiction of how literary people talk and act in college, to be fair. But the narrative loses so much from the 1st person POV, that third paragraph and the ending are especially damning. Maybe it’s all >intentional but also this whole passage is basically
>jokes on you I was just pretending to be unbearable
>oh Melville? Wait have you read Gilles Deleuze?

I'm officially dropping the book at about 2/3 in. I really don't care about who or why the characters are fucking. Its just boring college kids and there trifling relationships with no worthwhile introspection or commentary. It's very appropriate that it was adapted as a Hulu tv series.

>>19354137
This book would have been brilliant if it were aware of its own condemnation of the general air and culture of British middle class university humanities students. Instead its just obvious self inserts and the sorts of conversations you fantasise about in the shower where everything goes your way and every line they respond with is something you can neatly counter

>>19354294
yes its quite shallow and uninteresting. I can imagine a bookish highschool girl liking it. The only upside to my reading 2/3 of it is it may help me to be able to fuck one of these pseud girls.

>>19354411
Its certainly an interesting look into the mind of these people, maybe even a distillation of that culture. Thats the only value I can attach to the book and it derives entirely from the author's lack of self awareness which itself is perfectly fitting given the community it attempts to capture

this book was recommended to me by someone who’s claimed to be very well read, and honestly this recommendation made me questions that. She compared it to hemingway (was reading garden of eden at the time) and I just kinda hate read it until the end. I think there’s a bit of interesting commentary about relationship dominance and the abuse in her past leading her to seek out love that reflects that, but the writing style and wattpadesque scenarios overpowered that.

>>19354420
indubitably

>>19351281
>Tbh I just hate her for her absurd anti-Israel stunt
Shalom. I'd like to apply for a loan

>>19354427
Women plateau quickly in erudition because they are innately uncritical, and what little critical faculty they have is trained out of them by society, which tells them that their conflict-avoidance instincts are all valid, and any time they feel mad or bad or sad it's because the world isn't being "fair" and "nice" enough.

Men have a more equal mixture of "am I ACTUALLY well-read, or just fooling myself because it makes me feel good?" and "I'M VALID! I AM SOOO SMART! EVERYBODY LOVES ME!" emotions competing for primacy in their brains. Some men still turn out to be complacent, weak-willed dummies, addicted to small pond validation sources and unable to grow beyond that. But a lot more men end up naturally ascending the mountain of self-doubt and self-mastery.

About 1/4 up that mountain is the point where you'd go "lol this Sally Rooney bitch is midwit shit for New Yorker-reading coastal elite busybodies." That moment of realisation is also where you start to understand categories like bourgeois philistinism, and start to notice (both from then on and retrospectively) that a lot of the better authors you've read, the ones who survive the "is this just pap for New Yorker plebs?" test, were always bitching about bourgeois philistinism and you didn't notice.

Some women can make it to that plateau, and even further, but unfortunately there just isn't much about their innate situation (conformity, conflict-avoidance, hunger for validation) or their social situation (babied, pampered, desired and courted whether or not they have any personal or intellectual qualifications, encouraged by other weak-willed histrionic women to be a weak-willed emotional wreck, in the world's oldest crab bucket) that is conducive to this self-overcoming.

Women are far more likely to be plateau'd melanges of suggestively patrician interests intermingling with strikingly pleb interests. Striking, because a man would have purged the pleb interests in proportion as he acquired patrician interests.

>>19351590
Damn you bodied him lmao. This thread is full of retards that post "what are some redpilled books" threads

>>19354487
Well I don’t think it’s fair to equate the ingraining of an external locus of control on women alone, I see it a good portion for both genders, with men often neglecting working out and such because they’re coerced into thinking that’s acceptable now.

Do that many men really get to that point of self actualization? I’m in uni right now and so many seem to be okay with bare minimum effort then still feel entitled to sex or pleasure. I’ve heard so many “I don’t wanna think about it, that stresses me out” that i’m scared they’re going to end up just completely fucking themselves over due to neglect and ignorance.

Obviously it’s usually women that feel like they can get away with doing less, hell, my roommate wrote “you are worth more than your body :)” on our mirror as a cope, but I still think assigning it to just them allows it to slip by easier when a mans being stagnant.

How do you typically handle natural shallow urges for things like validation? Do you have a specific thing you derive it from? Hope this isn’t getting too personal but from someone else who seems to dislike lack of progression I’m curious how you handle it.

>>19354487
>encouraged by other weak-willed histrionic women to be a weak-willed emotional wreck, in the world's oldest crab bucket)

>>19354571
Men absolutely do it too, it's just that men will always have at least the pin-prick of self-doubt built into them, because as a man you are worthless and faceless unless you can differentiate yourself somehow. Men also have healthier social networks for "cooperative competition." Look at how we're all here on /lit/ bashing each other for being plebs but also admitting we're plebs and admiring people who know more. Women don't really do that, or they don't have many opportunities to learn it. Men seem to naturally form that kind of community if left alone. 4chan is a very male place.

I agree with you about modern men, but also I think male zoomers are uniquely feminised as a generation. I don't know if you can see it too or have the frame of reference to see it, but even the straight ones talk like fags, and even the ones with stereotypically masculine hobbies are preening and effeminate in the way they go about them.

The essence of male zoomer peer bonding in university is now just very feminine. Even the way they enunciate their words and "share" and "open up" emotionally about their happiness is essentially feminine. They divulge more with their body language and the easiness and relaxedness of their speaking, breathy halting speech conveying excitement, roundedness and lilting of enunciation, etc., all woman traits, because their lifestyle is basically a woman's lifestyle. They go to parties, they hang out, they socialise, they "have fun," they "share" and talk about the results of these activities, then repeat. The masculinity they're permitted to have within this has been restricted to gymbro culture and some tightly constrained, routinised lechery. Watch a bunch of frat guys walking around talking, there's no menacing or masculine energy to them anymore. It's essentially a bunch of broads babbling about their latest fun time.

So yeah men are becoming stagnant as well. But like I said, because men have a natural biological tendency to shrug this off, it will fix itself eventually. Probably violently. The upper class is effectively gelding itself. Effeminate hedonistic mandarin castes don't historically fare very well.

>>19354682
>How do you typically handle natural shallow urges for things like validation?
I don't know, autism helps since it creates an unhealthy counterbalance to normal levels of validation and contentment, which becomes healthy in a culture with abnormal levels of validation and contentment. But in a healthy culture you just need to channel people's energies into areas with "cooperative competition," meritocratic hierarchies with a good balance of hazing and initiatory norms vs. turnover of new blood so people can both take pride in belonging to an exclusive guild and in being a parvenu who breaks the mould. Our current feminised hierarchies have hypertrophied normative sides, all that matters is acceptance and belonging-feeling. All the worst instincts of women are on full display there, most women are in a continuous psychotic episode now.

Ultimately mild gender segregation is the best way to go. Women were not meant to be bombarded with male attention and the prospect of male attention and hierarchical and social norms grounded in male attention and potential male attention around the clock, and men were not meant to be bathed in porn and titillation around the clock either. This is an interesting review of a really interesting book on "homosociality" prior to sex normalisation:
https://counter-currents.com/2014/03/welcome-to-the-club/

Also D.H. Lawrence on "sex in the head" is very interesting on the inevitable androgyny of a culture that doesn't create separate spheres for its two gendered aspects to cultivate and form themselves, and THEN interact:
https://counter-currents.com/2013/08/d-h-lawrences-phallic-traditionalism/

When it comes to how particular women can avoid all the pressures to be nothing:
>The female body is a chthonian machine, indifferent to the spirit who inhabits it.
I don't know. But I do know that the first woman to create a nexus of self-differentiation that she can share with other women will probably inaugurate the next great revolution in human consciousness because she will have done more than make women an adjunct or object of men, which is what they mostly currently are. Unique women currently exist in the margins of male ideation. Any man trying to plot a way out of that would just be ideating more paths for them to walk on. That's the while problem in the first place.

>>19354682
zoomer here
how can i start acting like a man then?
i have no role models to look for guidance

>>19354696
>But I do know that the first woman to create a nexus of self-differentiation that she can share with other women will probably inaugurate the next great revolution in human consciousness

holy fuck, when was the last time you talked to a girl? (im serious)

>>19354830
start with the greeks

>>19354696
God okay your opinions on this seem so much more refined than my own but I couldn't agree more with the point of constant hedonistic jacking off by current society catering to base line desires. (Are you into neofreudisim at all?)

Anyhow you seem to be villanizing feminity to an extreme here too, while you're right on the account that people are becoming demasculized, do you not think that it's important for an individual to have a balance of the two energies? Or is your argument that its tilted too far in feminity at this point? I think the complete rejection of traits like vulnerability and authenticity results in lonliness and increased risk of depression and such.

I'll check out your reccomendations in a bit, trying to finish up an essay at the moment. (Also you should weave in more of your opinions, they're very interesting.)

>>19354696
Also do you think the increased feminization has resulted in the uptake of MTF? Maybe the female traits shoved upon them have caused them to feel completely alienated from their male gender causing them to try and find acceptance in the group that’s seemingly more similar to them?

ITT: cope and seethe
People are going to be reading Salley Rooney one hundred years from now.

>>19354959
no way

>>19354959
Lmao, good one!

>>19354854
i already did

>>19355110
clearly not

>>19354487
>>19354571
>>19354682
>>19354696
Very interesting posts, anon & anonette.

>>19354830
Unironically, Jordan Peterson will cover some of the basics and abstracts, because he is a psychologist who is thoroughly grounded in human behavior. He talks about career, education, and the different drives of the sexes.

An educated man from the 1800s is the peak of human culture.

>>19354830
Incredibly sad for a young man to ask for advice on acting like man from a deranged incel on /lit/. I wish for you to get better, read books not threads, perhaps even go to therapy so you at least have somebody (ANYBODY) to talk to. All the best anon, do not let yourself turn into a detached cynical retard.

Unironically Sally Rooney is more healthy for you, by being not unhealthy, than this pyscho shit

>>19355591
>educated man from the 1800s peak of human culture
Lol no. Anything resulting from modernity could not be the peak of human culture. Maybe 600 years prior, but you'd still have to go further back.

>>19350700
Serious question to all Rooneychads: should I start with Conversations with Friends or Normal People?

>>19355701
start with the greeks

>>19355639
600 years prior and people and society in general were too ignorant.

The British Empire was doing so much in the 1800s. People were looking forwards with excitement while still holding on to all the advantages of tradition.
In the 1800s a well educated man would be interested in science and advancement, but still would not have been divorced from the natural world.

>>19354682
>and even the ones with stereotypically masculine hobbies are preening and effeminate in the way they go about them.
What do you mean by this?

>>19350700
>recommendation of a woman

>>19354294
Ireland is not a part of Britain cunt

>>19351590
You will never be a woman.

>>19355744
>>19354830
A good place to look for how a regular man should be behaving in the west is the example set by many of the foreigners that come to the west, especially the middle class ones.
They believe in the things that the west used to stand for, that got us to this point, but still have the basic morals from their home countries that allow them to be normal people and more often reject the degeneracy.

Look at Emma Raducanu and her parents.
Father Romanian, mother Chinese. Both from Communist countries, both believed in education because they didn't have much else in the homeland. Both went to work in finance. Raised a daughter that got good grades but also had strong extracurricular, as if they were preparing her for Cambridge from day 1. She happened to become a tennis champ which is a very lucky result, but she would have been well prepared otherwise.
After she won the US tournament she went to visit the NY stock exchange. When she was asked about the big prize money she nonchalantly said she'll let her parents handle it all.

A lot of guys from the middle east want to be pilots in the west. A lot of guys from other countries want to be engineers or in STEM in the west. These people appreciate substance and making something of yourself while remaining humble and responsible and have no neurotic fear of becoming a family man.
Even the lower class ones come here and really work hard.

I'm in England. When I was a student the only normal functional people I met were from other countries, Med Europe, Eastern Europe, but also further away. The modern English speaking person really is such an absolute and utter disgrace.

>>19355591
Ah yes the benzo addicted waif being wheeled around by his psycho daughter is the the one that's gonna show you how to be the masculine ideal. Get a grip you fucking dork

>>19355812
hit a nerve huh

>>19350801
>What about Jesus?
>He was also celibate
>A matter of historical dispute
I was not aware that Dan Brown novels now constitute historical scholarship. What a joke.

>>19350700
The show is better. Paul Mescal (Connell) is one hell of an actor.

>>19355608
please listen to this post

>>19353243
jesus, is that really what the book is about? it's worse than i thought. the industry is parading around this high school literature like it's the new joyce.

>>19356131
Why, because it has some nice ad-hominems in it? fuck off brainlet

>>19351281
Holy seething replies. You really touched a nerve I see.

>>19354830
In what ways do you think you're lacking? You can't just start acting like a man at the flick of a switch.

>>19350700
it's clearly just wish fulfillment for lit girls. the bookish, plain unpopular girl not only gets her brains fucked out by chad, but also ends up being cooler than him when they go to university.

that's it. that's why it became so popular. very similar reason to why stoner became so popular around here. most dudes here have a fantasy in their head where they are super smart and unappreciated and women are whores, and stoner plays into that.

>>19358664
Yeah, pure fantasy.

The unappreciated thing is legitimate, the rest is varying levels of talked out to death.

>>19350700
Check this article out, OP: https://lithub.com/winning-the-game-you-didnt-even-want-to-play-on-sally-rooney-and-the-literature-of-the-pose/

>>19351988
get used to it; it's what we must endure
(anon arguing against rooney here)
they will hate us for our humanism; they will hate us for our patriotism
they will hate us for being rich; they will hate us for being poor
they will hate us for being religious; they will hate us for being secular
they will hate us for our success; they will hate us for our failures
they will hate us for converting; they will hate us for refusing to convert
they will hate us for our bravery; they will hate us for our cowardice
they will hate us.

>>19359908
>"Generation X writers are either a Voice too late or a Pose too early."
This makes sense. Most Gen X writers are disregarded by the previous and following generations, because Gen X refuses both boomer tastes and zoomer morals.

>>19356019
> dork

Why do you people insist on using pre-adolescent insults? Call him a faggot or a retard or anything with some punch to it.

>>19350861

Holy fucking based

>>19355792

Trinity might as well be you paedophile

>>19350700
>I was expecting it to be particularly relatable
It is though. Jessica is just like me. Love this book. Cried at the end.

>>19360822
>crying because of a book
Midwit detected

pls jannies end this thread

>>19360826
You misunderstand me. I cried at the end because I was being raped by a gorilla at the zoo. I was so engrossed in the book that I wandered into the gorilla enclosure.

>>19350801
The prose isn't anything special, but the characterization is pretty good. Bobbi is cool as fuck. I had a huge crush on a girl like that when I was in school, but she was experimenting with girls during that time, but we still fucked one time when we were very drunk. I was living the Chad life.

>>19360855
To continue this in case anyone is interested in my Chad exploits, I was polyamorous with a hapa girl named Alice. She used to let me lick her pussy after she had been out getting fucked. I had a thin moustache at the time and had a few experiences with other guys (mostly very dominant, black guys) on MDMA. Those were the best years of my life.

>>19360838
Based gorillas, putting the 'ape' in "rape".
Also, they have tiny dongs, it couldn't have hurt that much

>>19350801
Is Bobbi the most iconic literary character of the past decade? For better or worse, she represents these times better than any other character I've read. She's chick, cool, a badass feminist, but also kind of a pseud and a bitch. Guys want her, girls wants to be like her, but inside, she's full of inner turmoil.

>>19350700
I thought it was alright... Am I a midwit, litbros?

>>19350801
Am I supposed to think they are cool or pseuds? Because they are kind of cool, Bobbi specially, but perhaps Rooney is mocking people like me for liking the dark academia vibe.

>>19350700
>I'm finding it pretty boring and shallow. Am I missing something?
It was written by a woman

>>19351281
Oy gevalt

>>19350700
>I'm finding it pretty boring and shallow. Am I missing something?
Refer to pic related, most modern attempts at literature seem boring and shallow because they are written by boring and shallow people who only know of boring and shallow things.
>>19362255
They are pseuds and you’re a retard for liking them, regardless of Rooney’s intention.
>me liking the dark academia vibe
Drink Ricin or go back to Twitter you insufferable teenage pseud.
>>19361088
Yes.

Sullen Sally Rooney
Wrote a book that slew me
into a deep sleep
(into a deep sleep)

To read it I desired
for lust's insatiable fire
a woman I know recommended it
(a woman I know recommended it)

Sullen Sally's Duly Dully Dilly-Dallying Really Had me
Nodding off at every sentence
Waiting for something to happen
(Waiting for something to happen)

Alas; Shallow Sullen Duly Dully Dilly-Dallying Sally Rooney
Wrote a book on drinking coffee and having friends would see through me
If only I could see through them
(If only I could see through them)

>>19360867
>Based gorillas, putting the 'ape' in "rape".

Lol

>>19350801
Please take your meds

>>19351288
Maxwit post

>>19350801
>marxist
Buzzword, just like Rooney.

>>19350986
Based contradictions. Very dialectical.

>>19350801
>yfw no Bobbi gf

bump

>>19355760
Everything is used to whore for attention if you are a zoomer, hobbies included. Zoomers often pick up hobbies because it matches their personal self image, they treat them much the same way that people treat clothing. Women in general have had a habit of doing this for a very long time, but only recently with late millennials in the zoomers have men begun to do it en masse.

>>19355792
Youre all the same. Like Scots acting like theyre so different from the English. Not fooling anybody with those comedically silly accents.

>>19355760
watch how zoomer males talk, they over-share emotional valences like a woman

>Liikeeeee I was on vacaattiionnnnn? and it was sooOoOo cool brohahahAHAHA
>brROOOOOo i knOoOOoWhahaha

they are instinctively hyper-confident in being wanted and valid, like a woman, so they don't feel the need to ward off rejection and exclusion like normal men do. they take group acceptance for granted like women, as binary affiliation (in or out), not as hierarchical. they talk about things to share emotions and feel belonging, like women.

>Biologically speaking, man is a moderately gregarious, not a completely social animal -- a creature more like a wolf, let us say, or an elephant, than like a bee or an ant.
>In their original form human societies bore no resemblance to the hive or the ant heap; they were merely packs. Civilization is, among other things, the process by which primitive packs are transformed into an analogue, crude and mechanical, of the social insects' organic communities.
>A great gulf separates the social insect from the not too gregarious, big-brained mammal; and even though the mammal should do his best to imitate the insect, the gulf would remain. However hard they try, men cannot create a social organism, they can only create an organization. In the process of trying to create an organism they will merely create a totalitarian despotism.
>a new Social Ethic is replacing our traditional ethical system -- the system in which the individual is primary. The key words in this Social Ethic are "adjustment," "adaptation," "socially orientated behavior," "belongingness," "acquisition of social skills," "team work," "group living," "group loyalty," "group dynamics," "group thinking," "group creativity." Its basic assumption is that the social whole has greater worth and significance than its individual parts, that inborn biological differences should be sacrificed to cultural uniformity, that the rights of the collectivity take precedence over what the eighteenth century called the Rights of Man.
>must sacrifice his inherited idiosyncrasies and pretend to be the kind of standardized good mixer that organizers of group activity regard as ideal for their purposes. This ideal man is the man who displays "dynamic conformity" (delicious phrase!) and an intense loyalty to the group, an unflagging desire to subordinate himself, to belong.
Huxley, Brave New World Revisited

>>19365360
>The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest.
>"We have discovered happiness" -- say the Last Men, and they blink.
>They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him; for one needs warmth.
One still works, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.
>One no longer becomes poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.
>No shepherd, and one herd! Everyone wants the same; everyone is the same: he who feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.
>"Formerly all the world was insane," -- say the subtlest of them, and they blink.
>They are clever and know all that has happened: so there is no end to their derision. People still quarrel, but are soon reconciled -- otherwise it upsets their stomachs.
>They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.
>"We have discovered happiness," -- say the Last Men, and they blink.
Nietzsche

>>19365360
>The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest.
>"We have discovered happiness" -- say the Last Men, and they blink.
>They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him; for one needs warmth.
>One still works, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.
>One no longer becomes poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.
>No shepherd, and one herd! Everyone wants the same; everyone is the same: he who feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.
>"Formerly all the world was insane," -- say the subtlest of them, and they blink.
>They are clever and know all that has happened: so there is no end to their derision. People still quarrel, but are soon reconciled -- otherwise it upsets their stomachs.
>They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.
>"We have discovered happiness," -- say the Last Men, and they blink.
Nietzsche

>>19365360
The zoomer will inherit the Earth

https://twitter.com/xIRagnarokk/status/1449115679181918209

>>19350730
>It's criticisms of society are derivative
Yes, I found it... shallow, and pedantic

>>19365360
make it stop
make it stop
make it stop

>>19351281
Shalom goyim. You have been rewarded (0.01) Sheckles for your defense of Israel. Hail Moloch.
-MOSSAD

>>19365548
go back

>>19350700
women are boring and shallow, my guy. The book is the perfect encapsulation of the modern millennial roastie. So in that respect, it is a success. I think it's also successful in making me hate women more than I ever knew possible. Not sure if that was her intent, but it worked like a charm.

>>19354830
Read Mein Kampf. Hitler was unironically the most charismatic man to ever live.

>>19365551
Woah there, cool it with the antisemitism. Wouldn't want to find the skeleton of your underage female family members on some Billionaires Island in a few years, now would you goy?

>>19350816
Yikes. Houses are more poetic than fields. Deep shit... She definitely succeeded in capturing the pseud american youngster.

>>19365548
goyim is plural you fucking retard

>>19353501
the underage (at least mentally) of /lit/ like easy targets such as poplit, then comes the '''comedic''''''' contrarians, then comes those mad at the jesters, then comes more jesters, etc. etc.

>>19355608
maybe figure out what lead to his situation in the first place. There is a feminizing shift in society, the most therapy will do his help him cope with that. Many more men will come after with the exact same issues as him, except they will refuse to cope. But you will never realize how awful your advice is until man is pushed to the point of revolt.

>>19355833
this is honestly really true, I'm not one for immigration and generally believe in ethnically similar populations but immigrants (well the good ones anyways) display a lot of work ethic and serve as good role models, they are silent strong men with noble goals

>>19351257
literally lol'd. ty anon

>>19363573
Marxist has been appropriate as a buzzword ever since it became more of a religion than an ideology.

>>19365404
the chad zoomer out living life vs the virgin 4chan seether

>>19366762
That's because immigration filters the hardest working people from shit countries who hate their shit countries and want to get out, while leaving the shit countries to rot perpetually