/lit/ - Literature

>claim that your book is different because Marx's Capital didn't have any data unlike yours despite having never actually read it

>>19281125
>Neoliberal chads remain undefeated
I don’t know how we do it

marxism died the second lenin implemented the nep, everyone after that grifters.

>>19281133
by not compromising your pragmatics for ideals. neoliberalism is jewish conspiracies come true

>>19281125
I mean what did you expect? No actual marxist *economist* would ever be popularly recognized.

>>19281142
Pragmatism is the ideal.

>>19281130
Marxfags in absolute tatters

>>19281125
>if you talk about "capital" you're a marxist
Is this a psyop thread? You want people to think the only people who acknowledge wealth other than income are marxists?

>>19281125
>>19281130
I swear to god how do these people make it this far? Is the whole world a farce, and lets those who willfully bullshit things turn into a success?

>>19281130
>be wrong about that too
OH NO NO NO NO

>>19281154
yes. if you had started with the greeks you could have learned this from odysseus and saved a lot of time.

>>19281151
>acknowledge wealth
don't be disingenuous, if your work purports to be Das Kapital for the 21st century then you better have read the original

>>19281125
Actual living people in real life don't read marx thats why its been entombed to the basements of many a weary mothers.

>>19281167
What about the Chinese?

>>19281165
>work purports to be Das Kapital for the 21st century
Because it has "capital" in the title?

>>19281173
lmao if you think the Chinese read Marx

>>19281151
Imagine being this pretentious.

>>19281173
>Actual living people
>chinese

>>19281125
Wolff and Cockshott are the most well known ones. There's probably others but idk

>>19281133
It is not that hard when both left and right are constantly sabotaging themselves. (especially the leftists)

>>19281183
>He thinks the Chinese don't read and worship Marx

>>19281125
kinda based honestly

>>19281125
Can you morons stop glorifying one of the biggest delusional dick heads Europe ever produced (Marx)?
It's fucking cringe. You can be left wing and dislike capitalism without being a Marxfag. It's like you left wing brainlets see him as your Jesus. The guy was an objective retard, filled with hypocritical resentment, jealousy and a huge dose of wishful thinking.
E.g. his idea that you could force absolute equality through centralised dictatorial government, eventually dissolve that government and then assume humans will just stay that way.
That is the level of naivite and moronity that you dumbfags support, probably without realising it because I bet none of you have read a single Marx sentence.
Imagine Marx being the best thing the commie left can produce and refer to despite the fact his vulgar ideology has inspired hundreds of millions of deaths and unquantifiable pain for cultures across the world.

>>19281125
>well thought out argument about the accumulation of capital and its consequences
>pic not related
It's interesting that the only Marxists that were able to get rich off their "theories" are brutal dictators and entertainers.

>>19281441
leftists are unironically like "why is the left dead? could it be because our ideas are bad? no, no, it must be a conspiracy".

>>19281130
>Marx doesn't use data

Holy fuck he might actually be retarded

>>19281441
>force absolute equality
So you've not read marx huh?

>>19281398
China is capitalist with communist aesthetics

>>19281130
>In the books of Marx there's no data.
That's literally the whole fucking ideology, it's based on data that he gathered, whether or not that data is legitimate for his claims is up for debate but how can someone be so fucking retarded, it's what historical materialism is based on, historical data based on material
>>19281398
They might worship his name and image, but most books get censored to some extent, Marx/Lenin/etc are not taught fully.

>>19281441
>his idea that you could force absolute equality
Confirmed for having not read Marx and only absorbing reheated coldwar propaganda for boomers via cultural osmosis.

He wrote one of the most scathing critiques of his day on that very sentiment.

ITT we all pretend like anybody on this planet read or cares about Kapital

>>19281486
>capitalist with communist aesthetics
Literally the dream

>>19281525
You don't have to read it to have a basic understanding of it

>>19281486
>capitalist with communist aesthetics
Then why do democratic socialists hate it so much?

>>19281441
>>19281454
>>19281463
*hide posts*

>>19281551
because its an authocratic techno-state?

>>19281125
>>19281130
Do you think the capitalist cabal uses some memetic mind waves through 5g to passively prevent people from being willing to read Marx???
Like trigger activated ADHD?

>>19281640
Not seeing the issue here.

>>19281441
>through centralised dictatorial government
Ill stop saying read marx when you stop confusing him with Lenin

>>19281705
>Don't take the words of the only Marxist who ever amounted to anything into account when studying Marx
????

>>19281551
because they banned femboys from video games for young boys

Have YOU tried to read Capital? I have read most of Marx's writings, including the dissertation and his letters with Engels and other important letters, and I still only know what Capital is about because I slowly, arduously learned how the several different schools of interpretation of it feel about each other, over several years of watching them bicker and reading their stuff. And after all that, I still tend to think Capital is the weakest and least interesting element in Marx's thought. Nobody during the Second International REALLY read it or understood it. It took generations for modern, highly highly academicized quasi-consensus to emerge on it, and that is still fragmented and reinvents its own wheels every 30 years (see Postone).

The guy was writing a book on the history of capital. So did Braudel (actually he wrote three). Neither were Marxists, because neither happened to fall into the complex socialization processes underlying any average self-avowed Marxist's half-understanding of Marx.

>>19281142
Robert Brenner is good.

>>19281718
Not what that anon said

>>19281125
No-one, not even most Marxists have read Capital. It's obscure and impenetrable and economically obsolete nowadays.

>>19281929
Actually it is shockingly like reading Plato in how little has actually changed. The same fundamental questions, the same suite of answers to them, the same arguments between proponents of those answers.

What has mostly changed framed is the rhetoric and ideological framework that these things are couched in after WW2.

>>19281640
Wow based

https://youtu.be/cjyqWsrpQAA

>>19281765
>Braudel
Can someone give me a quick rundown on him?

>>19281160
What Piketty means is that Marx was not doing any serious statistical analysis to argue for his models and theories. I haven't read Capital so I cannot really say Piketty was right here, I'm guessing he thinks Marx did not include any serious statistical analysis that you might find in modern economics papers.

>>19281487
>They might worship his name and image, but most books get censored to some extent, Marx/Lenin/etc are not taught fully
I don't think the books are censored at all. A friend of mine bought a Chinese language copy of Capital at a museum gift shop that was in a nice, special hardback version.

Special collector's edition

>>19281125
He ain’t Marxist is he cunt

Also a fun thing to do. Search for Thomas Piketty's name in Chinese and plug-in the URL for party journals.

I thought Andrew Yang was the most popular left wing economist

>ITT: people who gave up in the first chapter of das Kapital
Here's an unironic protip: it stops being dense in chapter 2. Not kidding.

>>19281125
>Brainlets
>Thinking capital refers to the title of a book
>Talking about economics on /lit/
Morons go to the ovens

>>19282200
>>19282231
What makes you think those aren't censored?
All I remember is reading about professors that were imprisoned for teaching writings from Marx, Lenin, even Mao that were deemed "dangerous" or whatever the fuck.
Maybe Das Kapital is untouched.

>>19282265
don't even bother. They've already convinced themselves that Capital is this unreadable cryptic mess that nobody ACKCHUALLY reads so that they can have an excuse to dismiss any discussion surrounding it. I've only read Vol. 1 in German and most of it wasn't nearly as hard as people want to make you think. Obviously you shouldn't read like you'd read novel, but I did it by simply taking notes here and there and using secondary sources if something was unclear (David Harvey's book as well as his lectures are a good source). I'm definitely gonna read Vol. 2 and 3 next.
Also there's absolutely no excuse for an economist that writes about the history of capital to not read the OG work on capital itself. Piketty is just a lazy cunt, no ifs ands or buts.
>>19282231
Holy fucking based I'm jealous.

>>19281125
Andrew Kliman, Michael Lebowitz, Michael Heinrich are some worthwhile ones that come to mind. There are others.
>>19281335
Not these two.

>>19282372
Saying you've read David Harvey for guidance will elicit screeching accusations that he and you are misreading Capital among a large portion of today's Marxists.

If it's so self-evident why did most of its earlier interpreters misinterpret it as dogmatic bourgeois political economy?

>>19282372
>absolutely no excuse for an economist that writes about the history of capital to not read the OG work on capital itself
Marx's conception of value, prices, and money, which underlies most of his arguments throughout Capital, are completely detached from the modern economist's conception of these things. Capital is not the OG work on capital and virtually no economist will bother to read it, similar to how most economists don't really bother to read Adam Smith.

>>19281125
Michael Heinrich

>>19282655
He's not an economist.

>>19282081
>autocrat declares his subjects should read and contemplate marx as a spiritual pursuit
Wat?

>>19282626
Correct

t. bourgeois economist and Marxist

>>19281125
imagine being an unironic leftist in 2021

world's trash boys there's nothing left for you serfs except struggle. if there's one thing the elites have forgotten in the past few decades is the principle of perspective, of reasonable consumption. there is no limit to their greed, there is no justice because they own justice. there is only one struggle and it is a class struggle, and the sooner you retards figure out that means left and right working together the sooner you will have your lives back.

>>19283129
>imagine being an unironic leftist in 2021
>there is only one struggle and it is a class struggle
Sounds very leftist to me anon

China is not coming to save us.
The have absolutely no plans of exporting the revolution and helping us overthrow our capitalist overlords.
Their lack of funding and training native revolutionary troops operation in Western territory is proof that they are making no effort to help the Western comrades.
At best they just spy on Western governments to keep tabs on them but they made it clear we can’t rely on the them for support in the revolution.

>>19281133
Truly a great feeling to be on the winning team

>>19283156
Good. China should be an example of countries keeping to themselves rather than trying to attain global hegemony.

The US should retreat into itself and stop being the mother to the planet.

>>19283156
>Their lack of funding and training native revolutionary troops operation in Western territory is proof that they are making no effort to help the Western comrades.
Western "comrades" = Imperialists.

The only possible way for comrades in the third world to export revolution, is to fight imperialism so as to trigger crisis in the imperial core.

Its another leftypol seethe and cope thread where they fail to understand how state ideology works
There is a reason Tito hated the Praxis school and why Stalin progromed everyone that didn't accept his marxism as the only correct one

>>19281125
Why do these people think you need entire books to explain capitalism? It's super simple, there's a point where you have so much money, that just by having so much money you get even more money. If you have 5 million and put it into some fund that can manage a 10% ROI, that's 500 000 per year. You can buy a new house every year with that or just do fuckall. Or reinvest it back and you'll have a new 550 000 next year. It's like you have so much money, the system just wants you to have more money for no other reason than having so much money. Isn't that nuts? There's a point where you are basically showered with more money just for having tons of money in the first place. You don't even need to do anything, you are basically force-fed money for having so much money in the first place, it's like the system says "Oh you have so much money? Let me give you even more!" You know just for existing. You really need an entire book for that? Just do a basic calculation take some retarded low risk investment that returns anywhere from 2-10% yearly and calculate how much money you need to do nothing for the rest of your life.

>>19283156
>This dumbass
You really thought China was trying to help you, "comrade"? China cares only for China and that is the way it should be.

>>19283186
And in case you are worried the economy will crash you can diversify put a little something into a fund such as that arab Taleb's where a black sawn downturn will actually make you even more rich, while you keep paying a relatively small fee during the "good times" (with your other investments dwarfing that fee since we're in good times after all). You put some into gold and real estate too. You basically can't lose, only plebs get affected by downturns and literal retards who tend to be rich for some reason or another. Then when the market crashes you buy up all the strong stocks for cheap and make another fortune when they inevitably recover. It's like...you can't fucking lose, you have to be a bonafide retard or suffering from a self-destructive psychosis to be rich and lose money.

>>19281125
This guy is pretty liberal and pro capitalist, pro small business. All he wants to do is tax rich people to the extent they were before the 80s

His entire style seems so tepid though. I cant see him inspiring any political parties

>>19283186
>>19283201
I really wish Marx would have read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" so that he could have been as smart as you, anon.

>>19283156
They barely have a plan for themselves, just a promise it'll happen magically 100 years from now.

>>19282081
>vid
Lucy Liu is considered hideous by Chinese beauty standards

>>19283129
>he thinks rightoids believe in class struggle

>>19283156
>anons falling for this bait
I thought this board was where the smart people of 4chan hang our

why does everyone want socialism so bad? i don't get what would change. you'll still feel alienated and like a loser and the general quality of most goods and services will decrease.

>>19283311
dude no one wants socialism, everyone knows it sucks except a couple undegrads in the young dictators club

>>19281125
>>19281130
The supreme irony here is that these posters clearly haven't read Piketty's book, because he references Marx, explicitly states that he does draw data from contemporary sources, and simply comments that there were sparse sources available, so Capital in the 21st century is a better sourced and data driven book because there are literally more sources and more data today than in the 1850s

>>19281183
They do but they don't care about proletarians

>>19283311
I don't care about socialism, but capitalism and the way it erodes everything in the name of money is evil. I am aware Marx in the Manifesto made it a point to say he disapproves of people like me who care about culture and family and reject capitalism because of that, but I don't care. Socialism might preserve what I care about, and capitalism is destroying it.

>>19283252
we don't, thanks for noticing, and we never will

>>19281551
for not being white

>>19281705
Not him but I actually respect Lenin a thousand times more, he took Marx's retarded ideology and managed to weld it into a workable ideology that carved a New Empire out of the Dying Russian Empire

>>19281954
with the difference that plato is generally worth reading and (in all likelihood) wasn't a parasitic hypocrite bourgeois sack of shit with no real experience regarding the things he wrote about

>>19281551
Because they’re liberals.

Socialists and Marxists used to brawl in the street. Socialism is completely different from Communism. Socialism is actually possible, utilizing capitalism as an engine for a egalitarian society.. Marxism is an absurd pipedream at odds with reality itself. Piketty is a fucking bore and a humanist fag but at least he understands that bit

>>19282626
> don't really bother to read Adam Smith.
But Adam smith is very readable. Hell we read him pretty early in an undergrad class.

>>19281125
>>19281130
TP's argument is the rate of return on modern capital is higher than the rate of return on labor

That's not the same as marx being autistic about economic concepts that were later definitively proven incorrect with the introduction of marginalism

>>19281441
>t. hasn't read marx
i hate liberals so god damn much bros

>>19283129
>there is no justice because they own justice. there is only one struggle and it is a class struggle
those are leftist principles you fucking retard, go read some fucking theory. why are there still people in 2021 who don't understand that LIBERALS ARE NOT LEFTISTS.

>>19281441
keep it moving boomer

>>19283252
Tucker Carlson goes off about class struggle a few times on Fox News so some do believe in it.

>>19283252
In fact the right is the only ones who care about class struggle

>>19281551
Because they are American

>>19282300
You read it and you fell for it, dumbass

>>19283311
So that hopefully I won't have to work quite as much.

>>19283438
>wasn't a parasitic hypocrite bourgeois sack of shit with no real experience regarding the things he wrote about
kek

>>19283438
idk man, Plato wrote about and failed to establish a utopian society too. The parallels are there.

>>19287103
Your argument?

>>19287116
Plato had infinitely more practical experience in politics than Marx ever had, even if his related writings were at times utopian in nature. That much we can be certain of. To compare the two is a ridiculous insult to the former.

>>19287340
Only comparing them insofar as their works offer us a snapshot of their respective times, and how when reading them there is a sense of proximity to contemporary issues/problems/questions in society/philosophy.

That Plato had more hands on experience isn't really the point. Both are the culminations of many disparate strands being brought together. Like, even modern Libertarianism is rooted in a response to the Marxist critique of capital. Much of what was nebulous and taken for granted had to be formalized in response to the criticism it was facing.

>>19287193
(You) can't even guess? Lmao, what a pseud

>>19288180
>formulate my argument for me
Socialist thinker.

>>19282372
I haven't read Marx to any real degree, does he point to a managerial class component under the dictatorship of the proletariat? Weydemeyer cited Robespierre's Comité de Salut Public as an example of bourgeois excision necessary for redistribution. This (arbitrarily redefined) dictatorship is somehow supposed to abolish classes conceptually, which is how we get Priestland's "ultra-democracy" by way of Lenin because the state apparatus is maintained...somehow. But if you've read Đilas, any degree of oversight seems to have automatically instantiated a class component according to degree of privation and privilege afforded by the system, making any dictatorship of the proletariat impossible by way of asymmetric access. I don't think any of this is some novel insight btw. I'm also confused by what "proletariat" is actually supposed to signify in Marx's stuff. Hobsbawm notes that 'proletariat' is a misnomer for the "aggregate of mostly hired, but non-industrial, wage-earners" during the French Revolution. This would imply that the proletariat are strictly class-conscious industrial laborers, not peasantry generally, correct? Aren't we all lumpen?

>>19281183
>literal communist state
>”they don’t read Marx tho lol”

>>19288203
>i-its socialism!
You aren't even familiar with the socioeconomic conditions of Greek philosopher, just stop posting

>>19288373
Still no argument. This is epic.