/lit/ - Literature

Um, the Greeks?

You begin with historical materialism which predates Marx by centuries.

>>19271102
this, read Aristotle's Politics
for Marx himself, start with the German Ideology then Capital then pic related

>>19271102
this, read Aristotle's Politics http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.1.one.html
for Marx himself, start with the German Ideology then Capital then pic related
Wage Labour and Capital, Value Price and Profit, the Grundrisse and Theories of Surplus Value are good additional readings on the economic stuff

https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm

>>19271097
I assume that you've already cut off your peanus so now you must just follow some colorful personalities on Twitter. Easy-peasy really, I don't know why some gatekeepers make it look way more complicated than it really is.

>>19271102
this
>>19271240
muh tranny
>>19271097
OP OP OP
just buy this book
reading marx in whole is a waste of time

>>19271359
based, good call.

You don't, and whenever someone begins to talk about him; just say: "no food". There, I just saved you some time.

>>19271097
Theses on Feuerbach.

>>19271359
That's a good option also.

>>19271097
Venezuela
100 million
No food

>>19271359
I have that book, it's good. But no replacement for, e.g., reading Capital properly.

>>19271097
Whats the point of reading this guy if i already know hes a materialist, dialectician, humanist, scientist and empirist

>>19272157
opposition research?

>>19271097
Capital.

>>19271097
You must understand Hegel to understand Marx.

>>19272157
>dialectician
>>>humanist
>>>>>>>>>>>empiricist

Not OP, I get the very basics... but I'm confused on how the whole bourgeois vs petty bourgeois vs proletariat vs lumpen and so on works out in the 2000s.

If I make £100 a month in my online drop shipping business does that technically make me a bourgeois Chad and in a higher caste than office managers and directors who are wagies/proletariat/commoners?

>>19271097
these are introductory texts about 30 pages each on Marx' views on political economy:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/
after that if you're stubborn enough give Capital a shot. I just dove straight into Capital on a dare from my old boss

>>19272370
no that's just a side business. if you can grow it enough then you might enter the petty bourgeois. but remember that the haute (big) bourgeoisie does not trust its petty counterpart, which is why you're better off throwing your hat in with the workers. £100 isn't really enough to make any difference class-wise
t. self-employed petty bourgie who knows full well how precarious my situation is

>>19272377
https://docdro.id/NIiHOdE
https://docdro.id/ekx89E9
https://docdro.id/SglTwfi

>>19271097
You start with the Greeks and if you're not an idiot you'll drop Marx by the time you reach him

>>19271097
Start by never reading Marx, unironically.

>>19272478
This, the current meta is to only read Marx as filtered through some marginal meme marxist like Pashukanis or Mészáros.

>>19272421
why not just link to the copies on marxists.org?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1885-c2/index.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/index.htm

>>19271097
you don't you nigger faggot. try hitler instead.

>>19272591
>you don't you nigger faggot. try hitler instead.

>>19272591
i've already read everything hitler
even hitler read marx

>>19272585
yeah, i was thinking of doing that instead. i've always preferred pdf's though

>>19272624
they have pdf copies as well. those webshit file hosting sites just really grind my gears. at least docdro.id doesn't require you to run their shitty JS to download the PDFs so that's nice

>>19271097
Here, and this is a serious recommendation from me:

Don't read his stuff, and even for research purposes read only readings of him. All you need to know about the topic is repeated to death in the modern literature.

Then again, if you are a dusty historian, then its another situation. Why be so vaque in the OP..?

>>19272848
because Nick Land talks about Marx and I want to understand him better

>>19272404
>side business
probably not side if you're neet.. Lumpen petty bourgeois was a stretch.

Can you go from PB to higher bourgeois? Or that like nobility. If you can, roughly what £ own to go from one to the other... you get past a that amount, you're too rich to be in the petty bourgeois. Or does it include how many employees you have or if you inherited the business etc

Are these proletariat or petty (or other)
>9-5 middle class worker with 35-40 hour week spends a lot time on reddit r/communism101, frequent breaks, work from home now and again $45k pa
>A woman designing and making figurines from wood and plastic and selling them on her website/ebay for $40k pa. Would it make a difference she was buying them ready made in bulk and selling them instead
>Vasch making $300k a year streaming and pays a couple of guys a few bucks here and there to edit/clean up his channel/video and maintain his website etc

do you think this is a lumpen proletariat or no
>A long term NEET at parents chilling with weed and booze with no intention of working, but follows the above streamer and researches communism and class struggle online

>>19272885
a NEET doesn't necessarily fit into a specific class. they could be seen as existing inside the semi-feudal structure of the family

>>19272893
or welfare state

>>19271802
If this isn't even to persuade you not to read Marx, then I don't know what will. Don't be what they call a useful idiot..

Actual answer here from a non-incel right wing virtue signaller more concerned with appearing self-assured on an anonymous messageboard than being a real person

I would say start with an intro to Marx chapter in an undergrad textbook...look up a polsci reading list for Oxford or Cambridge or LSE or something and read that. See what, if anything, resonates with you

For example I worked in a factory for a while and when I came across his theory of alienation it made a lot of sense to me whereas aspects of Capital seemed impenetrable (David Harvey does a series of YouTube lectures explaining that). Others may have had the opposite experience where they preferred the economics analysis and weren't too concerned with the philosophical aspects

Remember though that although he was one of the most influential intellectual of all time, he was a flawed human being. To the left he's a prophet and to the right he's a demon but basically, he was a journalist and a critic. Some of his criticisms and analyses of capitalism were spot on (read the Communist Manifesto and tell me it doesn't perfectly predict globalisation) and some of it was off the mark...others following his tradition have had to chop and change bits to maintain the relevance of his thought but that's applicable to every philosopher ever. Also remember that those who quote Marx may not necessarily have been approved by him, no more than Joseph Kony quotes the bible but may not actually follow the teachings of Jesus

>>19272893
>>19272900
does lumpen proletariat group still exist? i was under the impression that at the time the chronically unemployed were in that group, slackers types who leech off society but they also had no class consciousness. others in the group were hobos, petty criminals, street walkers etc also with no care about the revolution

>>19271097
You start with the refutation of his philosophy - Bakunin

>>19272936

Don't MAGA heads believe that a crooked billionaire sex offender who mingled with Epstein and the Clinton's is going to wrest control of society from crooked billionaire sed offenders like Epstein and the Clintons?

That's pretty Lumpen

>>19272936
>does lumpen proletariat group still exist?
kind of, in the form of surplus populations
https://viewpointmag.com/2015/10/31/surplus-population-social-reproduction-and-the-problem-of-class-formation/

how is this chart?

>>19273023
>the verso edition of on practice/on contradiction with the zizek intro
ohnononono

>>19272951
You might be on to something anon.... I don't like anyone in haute Bourgeois. Not a single one of those oppressors. But some of them in the haute group... some are so evil.. so foul that they haunt my mind in my every waking hour and even in my dreams. Maybe we put these guys down as actually Lumpen instead, it would take some of the sting off. And it would probably take them down a peg or two if they knew they really in bottom pile... below even us heh.

>>19271097
Marx and Marxism by Gregory Claeys

>>19271097
Engels. Condition of the working class in England. Gives you communism. Historical materialism. Amorality about moral problems. Class. Working class centred communism.

>>19271097
You don't, read Weber and Pareto instead.

>>19271097
>where do I start with the secularised pseudo-christian whose ideas were disproved by everything currently known about human nature and the biological realities of life on earth
You stop and rethink your life before you join the newest and most retarded abrahamic religion.

>>19271097
Theses on Feuerbach
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm
>>19274022
hmm why don't you disprove his ideas citing everything currently known about human nature and the biological realities of life on earth or do you just like making bold statements

>>19274022
>human nature
Nice 1 punchy, as if I have a rubber vagina in my motorcycle seat

/me zips up leathers and dismounts motorcycle.

>>19274037
Marx wrote letters to Darwin in the wake of OTOOS in which he enthusiastically asked Darwin to endorse communist ideas because Marx only gathered that evolution was a material origin for life on earth (incidentally that is NOT even something that Darwin claimed) and failed to understand the competitive nature of natural selection. When Darwin pointed out that natural selection was incompatible with marx’s beliefs, Marx threw a tantrum, declared that Darwin was too “Victorian” and sort out other concepts for the underpinning of evolution to justify his beliefs post-hoc, he was an absolute sophist. Not only is that embarrassingly conceited it also displays that Marx didn’t understand the evolutionary science of the time or any time because although the long scale process of high level differentiation has made evolution hard to comcretely “prove”, natural selection is so fundamental to the way the universe functions that it operates on everything from the development of weather systems to the changes in human culture, and appropriately enough for this site, memes.
Ideas of collectivism completely deny this most fundamental aspect of biology: individuals compete with one another to succeed, and since we are living things (animals) made of biological matter, they are intrinsically part of who we are. Collectivism only serves as a tool of whoever ends up in charge of the collectivist polity to outcompete everyone else, as has been demonstrated by every Country every founded or ruled by marxists
>but muh cooperative social groups
Tribalism is a justification for nationalism, not socialism, and social groups in the natural world and in primitive human cultures still contain large quantities of internal competition.
>muh interspecies mutualism
Only occurs between species with distinct non-interfering niches and even then will quickly turn into one exploiting the other, most mutualisms greatly favour one of the participants in both nature and in human society
>>19274041
You sure like riding that thing, you haven’t got a pussy in the seat haha?

>>19271746
>>19272204
only replies you need to read. hide everything else

Posting about this guy really brings out the 19 year old conservatives and libertarians

With this:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html

No worker even understands this simplistic pamphlet which is the greatest irony in human history. You can't be a bourgeois faggot and save the proletarians, in fact this conclusion led Pol Pot to dump millions of people into ditches in Cambodia as a neo-vanguard. I have no idea why this guy isn't brought up every single time Marxism is discussed, because the Khmer Rouge were the ultimate praxis of socialist failure and highlight why these 19th century memes are such a bad idea. His conclusions are 100% agreeable but that would lead any reasonable person into nihilism instead of trying to reform their people into the Year Zero New Man. Cambodia was not some nationalist footnote of history, it is the final word on socialist praxis and an example of why a new paradigm is needed i.e. a third or fourth or fifth or even probably a Sixth Political Theory. I'm glad all those motherfuckers are dead by the way, the Khmer Rouge did a good job in murdering all those urbanoids, even if they wrongly sustained a shitload of civilian casualties. Because Pol Pot was right: one should not be optimistic about the people who exist now, especially not city dwellers, they deserve to be dumped into the trash bin and their assets seized, but at that point you are left with almost nothing, and as history shows you can't build a society from New Men because it's bound to be militarily dominated by Old Men unless you can overtake the entire fucking world and not just a small society in southeast asia.

>>19274115
>You sure like riding that thing, you haven’t got a pussy in the seat haha?

I see you too have read Althusser, but is Edith dead or alive inside her box?

>>19271097
Talmud

>>19272885
>Can you go from PB to higher bourgeois?
you can, but it is difficult. capital accumulates, so the number of "spots" in the big bourgeoisie shrinks every year. for example the number of people whose wealth combined exceeds that of half the human race shrinks every year. think bezos, musk and the waltons
>middle class
no such thing. it's also perfectly possible for a wagie to make more than a petty boorj.
>vaush
I don't know if agent kochinsky actually hires people, but given what he makes he's at least petty boorj given that he can live on it. he's not a wagie.
>NEET
pic related

>>19274037
Voluntary trade of privately owned goods is so natural and beneficial that even animals employ it. E.g. it is quite common that birds "pay" people for food with some trinkets; most probably the process is that the bird is just carrying some object in his beak and when it notices food it must drop the object to pick up the food. Regardless of its origin its a pure voluntary trade (exchanging a less desirable good for more desirable one) and this stupid nigger Marx thinks that he can organize an advanced human society _without_ this basic self-preserving feature.

>>19274536
crows will express gratitude if you give them food. they will also punish individuals who don't contribute or take too much food

communists don't give a shit about your toothbrush, but about private property, distinct from personal property, that is used to exploit the working class
>exchanging a less desirable good for more desirable one
value is created in production (and transport), not in distribution

>>19274555
>they will also punish individuals who don't contribute or take too much food
No they don't

>>19274571
>he doesn't know about crow court

>>19274555
This is obviously even worse as they exclude the single most valuable property (the productive capital) from the rules of voluntary trade.
>communists don't give a shit about your toothbrush
I know that they don't - because this "property" is essentially worthless and they surely recognize where the spoils are.

>>19274180
>No worker even understands this simplistic pamphlet which is the greatest irony in human history.
Apparently you don't either, because it explicitly states that communists are not of the proletariat.

>>19273023
>no Hegel
>no Mad Max Stirner
You need these two to understand where Marx was coming from.

>>19274653
>This is obviously even worse as they exclude the single most valuable property (the productive capital) from the rules of voluntary trade.
elaborate. also
>voluntary trade
not particularly voluntary when the options for most of us are "be a wagie or die". those who have a say in production is a tiny autocratic elite

>>19271097
it doesn't matter, as long as it's written by Marx or Engels
>>19272885
you conceive class like a bourgeois sociologist, like it were a static categorization for individuals
>>19273023
looks like a garbage dump. stop being a gigantic faggot and just like read Marx
>>19274115
you're just making shit up you retard. you haven't read Marx
>>19274339
>>middle class
>no such thing
moron

>>19275083
what is this so-called middle class? the petty bourgeoisie? the more well-off strata of the working class? there is no middle "class" that is a class unto itself. in the west there are only the two classes. there is no peasantry and there are no serfs in this part of the world

>>19274180
> one should not be optimistic about the people who exist now, especially not city dwellers, they deserve to be dumped into the trash
where did these city dwellers touch you anon?

>>19271097
start with this

>>19274180
>>19275231
are these city dwellers with us in the room right now?

>>19275182
>what is this so-called middle class?
it's made of all the people who are between those who can live idly from capital and those who are unable to make any economic reserve for themselves, i.e. who have nothing to lose but their chains, the proletarians
>there is no middle "class" that is a class unto itself. in the west there are only the two classes. there is no peasantry and there are no serfs in this part of the world
what do you then suppose was Marx talking about then when he said that the course taken by bourgeois society is the growth of the middle class? do you think he the growth of peasantry or something? certainly not, as he was clear that in bourgeois society peasants tend to transform either in small capitalists or rural proletarians. and who even told you that there are only two classes? some youtuber?

>>19275364
>it's made of all the people who are between those who can live idly from capital and those who are unable to make any economic reserve for themselves
so the petty bourgeoisie?
>the course taken by bourgeois society is the growth of the middle class?
where does he write this? because reality is the opposite. the petty boorj may grow in absolute terms, but certainly not relative to the population at large at present. at least not from what I've seen. this because capital accumulates. if you have evidence of the opposite then present it

>>19275471
Capital accumulation is perfectly normal and beneficial for the society as a whole. In the old times the "capitalist" would own a wooden boat and a fishing net, currently he owns an oil-tanker worth millions times more; it's good, that's how we progress - the real wages have also increased enormously.
The point is that the productive capital should be operated by people possessing the necessary skills and the unhampered free market (without leftist bailouts and "protection" and "regulation" schemes) takes care of that. An average worker would manage the logistics enterprise with the same "skill" as the typical Twitter user would manage the hunting rifle (a productive capital all right).

>>19271097
Don't start u fag, Marx is jut for the Ubermenchs to read u r still retarded to do it. (Apparently a pseud)

>>19275639
Btw, every person who owns some stocks, keeps a banking account or has a pension fund is a freaking part-time capitalist as he _invests_ some of his assets instead of consuming them (exactly like your bogeyman bourgousie who always does _some_ work and _some_ consumption besides just "owning" their companies). At that point your only complain is that some capitalists are richer than others..

>>19271097
Manifesto, then Kapital, then if you're not turned off just keep reading the millions of secondary works on him/that continue marxist thought.

>>19272885
Class is (or at least used to be) about much more than just your economic conditions.

>>19275639
>In the old times the "capitalist" would own a wooden boat and a fishing net
you have no idea what a capitalist even is
>real wages have also increased
no, they have not. people on average produce the same value per hour now that they did 100 years ago. only the variety and mass of use values have increased
>leftist bailouts and "protection" and "regulation" schemes
do you know what regulatory capture is?

>>19276186
My sentence is true even allowing for your "theory" that "capitalist" must hire wage labor.
I may give the term whatever meaning I want if I offer my definition but there was no need for that here. I've used the common (that is non-marxist - duh) definition btw.
Saying that the real wages have not increased (you can buy the same amount of the same quality goods) is, I don't even
The regulatory capture is an outside-of-market mechanism propagated by leftists (marxists included) who constantly screech that "wild capitalism" must be regulated. You have your regulations you so eagerly fight for, enjoy the consequences.

I want to read marx just so I can exploit labor more easily

>>19275364
i think the middle class to karl marx was the remnants of artisanal labour and petty producers under semi-feudalism

>>19276285
>My sentence is true even allowing for your "theory" that "capitalist" must hire wage labor.
this is material fact
>I may give the term whatever meaning I want
I already figured out you're a liberal who doesn't know what they're talking about. no need to repeat it
>Saying that the real wages have not increased (you can buy the same amount of the same quality goods) is, I don't even
use values are not commensurable, dummy
>The regulatory capture is an outside-of-market mechanism
"not real capitalism!"
>propagated by leftists (marxists included) who constantly screech that "wild capitalism" must be regulated
no that would be liberals

>>19275083
>>19275364
i think the middle class to karl marx was the remnants of artisanal labour and petty producers under semi-feudalism. it wasn’t at all like the vague cultural term that it is now, sometimes given an empirical sounding statistical definition by sociologists or whoever

>>19276400
>>The regulatory capture is an outside-of-market mechanism
>"not real capitalism!"
We capitalists criticize the regulations, you leftists introduce the regulations. And then you blame us for the effects of regulations. You must be a dedicated marxist and a materialist dialectician too keep a straight face all along. We simple folks (like, you know, hard working people) cannot grasp this.

>>19276480
regulations are from the bourgeois to regulate themselves. grow up

>>19272377
Isn't it strange that Marxists, especially modern ones, talk about "reading theory" in the same way normal people might about eating more vegetables or going to the gym?

>Marx
Refuted by Mitchell Heisman (pbuh)

>>19276491
Do YOU want the regulations or not?
You can join us in this fight at any point.

>>19272189
nice

>>19275471
>where does he write this?
in Theories of Surplus Value
>because reality is the opposite. the petty boorj may grow in absolute terms, but certainly not relative to the population at large at present. at least not from what I've seen.
you haven't seen shit then. in 1910 Western Europe was numerically dominated by proletarians, now it's numerically dominated by all sorts of middle class muck, and not just it
>this because capital accumulates.
yes, and the more capital there is, the more parasites it produces, the more middle class trash it needs to consume overproduced commodities as well as to just manage accumulation for the actual capitalists who are busy snorting cocaine
>if you have evidence of the opposite then present it
how about you present evidence that there are just two classes

>>19276416
are you retarded? do you think he believed in the 1860s that the tendency of bourgeois society is for the remnants of artisanal labour and "semi-feudalism" to grow? already in the 1840s (the manifesto) he said they were dying off. instead, he was clearly talking about the modern middle class. and I don't care what any sociologists have to say about it

>>19276480
the bourgeoisie introduces regulations because there's no capitalism without regulations. capitalism was created by state intervention in the first place https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch27.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch28.htm

>>19276528
I've asked a simple question, you're dodging it. You have always supported market "regulations". Gommies were really the puppets of the ruling class historically, knowingly or not.

>>19276292
based. the best place to exploit right now are Indians in the tech industry

>>19276499

>>19276528
>do you think he believed in the 1860s that the tendency of bourgeois society is for the remnants of artisanal labour and "semi-feudalism" to grow?
yes, and he was right
the manifesto is dumb, i don't care about it

>>19276550
>I've asked a simple question, you're dodging it.
I'm not the anon you were talking to and your post doesn't even contain a question. communists support abolishing the market, not regulating it. and it's not like not regulating the market is even a possibility in the real world, so I don't know what your point is supposed to be

>>19276580
nobody cares about your worthless opinions

>>19276589
>communists support abolishing the market, not regulating it.
but why
why can't i sell stuff

get the marx-engels reader and read it sequentially. that is the most bang for buck time investment to understand marxism possible

>>19276640
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/progress-publishers/volume01.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/progress-publishers/volume02.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/progress-publishers/volume03.htm

>>19276619
because private appropriation of products doesn't correspond to the increasingly socialized character of the productive forces, and this mismatch leads to regular violent perturbations that will only cease when one of them drives the revolutionary class to finally abolish private appropriation. and private appropriation of products is the basis of buying and selling

>>19276678
how does private appropriation of products lead to violence?

>>19276480
>We capitalists
you are not a capitalist anon. you are just a lib cucking for them on the internet

>>19276514
communists do not care whether there are more or less regulation, but want to abolish the capitalist mode of production entirely

>>19276528
>now it's numerically dominated by all sorts of middle class muck
again you use this term "middle class"
>yes, and the more capital there is, the more parasites it produces
capital accumulation is the opposite of this. you should know this if you've read Capital

>>19276959
>want to abolish the capitalist mode of production entirely
how
lenin was never able to do it and he was the greatest man of the last century

>>19277036
lenin wasn't as clever as he's made out to be and he made a fuckton of mistakes

>>19277036
>how
now that's the question
personally I think the answer is a bottom-up approach rather than the to-down approach we see with Leninist parties

>>19276692
crises, wars, protests, repressions, etc. are products of capitalist reproduction and of the enforcement of the conditions necessary for it. and the basis of capitalism is private appropriation of products of labour
>>19276959
>again you use this term "middle class"
yes
>capital accumulation is the opposite of this
I'm not talking about bourgeois parasites but middle class parasites. you should know this if you've read Capital (4th volume)
>>19277036
this is not a matter of a great man. and he also made strategic mistakes such as allying with leftists which led to them eroding the independence of communist parties and then eating them whole. having history of mistakes to learn from makes the task easier, not harder.

>>19277043

Yeah, but he still pulled it off.

>>19277074
>crises, wars, protests, repressions, etc. are products of capitalist reproduction and of the enforcement of the conditions necessary for it. and the basis of capitalism is private appropriation of products of labour
we live in the most peaceful era in all of history

>>19277074
>Capital (4th volume)
admittedly I have not read theories of surplus value. I see time and time again people who think they are "middle class" when in fact they are wagies like everyone else

>>19277074
>>19277068
>this is not a matter of a great man
it always will be. lenin and my pic related got closer to socialism than the "masses" ever have in all of history.
stop aligning yourself with commoners. it's gross.
>cockshott
how is he any different from pre-second international soc dems?
bordiga is crypto fascist btw

>>19277068
The balding irrelevant white guys on the left are more right than the balding irrelevant white guy on the right. Marx already BTFO of political economy.

>>19277118
please stop spamming your retarded shit in every marx thread, it makes me cringe. thanks

>>19277102
no we don't
>>19277107
most wage workers in the West are middle class, that's why they aren't even close to opposing capital but instead they constantly bitch about the 1% or trump or whatever
>>19277118
nope
>>19277128
very true

>>19277134
you never made any argument against what I said, ever. all you say is
>oh IT's CRINGEEEY sTOP
I am right and you are wrong
>>19277142
>nope
yes.

>>19277157
>you never made any argument against what I said
he maybe didn't but I certainly have. you've been blown the fuck out multiple times and that's that. nobody's going to pay attention to you anymore

>>19277142
>protests
>since 2009
>europe and USA practically at 0
this doesn't mean anything
and not all protests are created equal
i'm going to need more evidence, friendo.
this is the most peaceful and most boring time in history. accept it.

>>19277169
>he maybe didn't but I certainly have. you've been blown the fuck out multiple times and that's that. nobody's going to pay attention to you anymore
when? I never have. if I did I would remember and never post again.

>>19277172
the number of strikes in the US in recent years has hit a 30-year high.
keep coping

>>19277118
>stop aligning yourself with commoners
no I don't think I will
>how is he any different from pre-second international soc dems?
elaborate

>>19277142
>wagies
>middle class
no anon

>>19277201
>the number of strikes in the US in recent years has hit a 30-year high.
and what number is that, 10?

>>19277209
>no I don't think I will
you're not one, anyway. you want to mold and shape them in your vision. sure maybe you have their best interests in mind. but you don't represent them, you only represent yourself and your vision for the world. the fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of people are not interested in revolutions, but higher pay and lower working hours.
>elaborate
I have watched his videos (did not read his book) and he essentially wants to vote for socialism via direct democracy.

>>19277211
over 250 known ones in 2021 so far

>>19277211
>>19277241
oh and with labour protests counted in and not just strictly strikes the number is 800

>>19277241
definitely has to do with covid. where can I find statistics on this?

>>19277230
>I have watched his videos (did not read his book)
I suggest you actually read TANS then. cockshott and cottrell don't really propose how to actually get into the situation they describe, which is a massive weak point in their proposal. they sort of just assuming a DotP is in place and theorize how it could work. by no means do they suggest we can voot our way there

>>19277250
the uptick has started in 2018 but you automatically blame the first thing you can think of. more cope then
you should already know all the sources if you're as informed as your confident claims imply

>>19277256
I am hardly ever convinced from new authors but I'll take a look at TANS. To me Marx has said all that there is to be said. Anything outside of direct action is useless, and I really don't like the rhetoric of the western socialists nor the people they associate with. Until working conditions really start to worsen due to falling rate of profit there will never be a mass movement. At the very minimum you need a crisis, a really bad one at that. It would be at least a couple decades until conditions like these take hold.

If you want to accomplish something today, anything outside a Blanqui style coup would be useless.

>>19277266
I go outside. Everything is fine. This is all the evidence that I need. In the information age when things go to shit you always know. Everything is fine.

>>19277304
>Until working conditions really start to worsen due to falling rate of profit there will never be a mass movement
this may well be the case. I had this exact discussion with the local chapter of our communist party today, where I don't think a revolution is likely here. on the other hand covid has changed things. who knows? porky can't help himself and is busy dismantling even succdem countries
also you could look at Soviet cyberneticists like Glushkov. English translation are starting to trickly out thanks to Russian comrades

>>19277330
which country if you don't mind me asking? I'll take a look at Glushkov as well. ty.

>>19277304
>>19277330
seems like the problem is political and tactical. why are you talking about cybernetics then?
check out endnotes.org.uk, you might find it useful, even in a critical sense.

>>19277368
https://endnotes.org.uk/file_hosting/EN5_Contours_of_the_World_Commune.pdf this is a good essay to start off with

>>19277345
Sweden
>endnotes.org.uk
I'll have to give it a look

>>19277387
https://www.riff-raff.se/ similar to endnotes in your country/language

>>19277404
looks leftcom. worth a once-over or two at least

>>19271097
Manuscripts of 1844, wage labour & capital, the german ideology, the poverty of philosophy, capital (insanely dry and long probably not worth it if you just want a casual understanding)

>>19277118
>stop aligning yourself with commoners. it's gross.
absolutely aristocratic

in communist society there is no room for greatness. no hardships or the triumph over them. no wars, no napoleons, no caesars. no loli orgies. no room for delinquency.

it will suck and people will die from boredom

>>19277763
what the fuck do you think people will do with the free time worldwide communsim enables? nothing?

>>19277807
assuming worldwide communism doesn't eliminate low iq people

yes. precisely.

>>19277817
oh the horror

>>19277763
okay go to the middle east and fight in a war then

>>19277817
>finally get lots of free time
>OH THIS IS SO INTOLERABLE I WISH I WAS DYING IN A WAR
What do you mean by this?

>>19277763
nature exists. now fuck off already
>>19277817
it will eliminate you so that's one already

>>19277825
>oh the horror
yes actually. communism is only good if you think like an Englishman and have a utilitarian ideology.
>>19277830
i am
>>19277836
>OH THIS IS SO INTOLERABLE I WISH I WAS DYING IN A WAR
there are people like this. they exist. you just can't comprehend it.
they don't make up the majority of the populace, but they are the most interesting and free spirited people in the world.

sure workers contribute to society, but I will not elevate them as an ideal. the ideal is the artist, the intellect, the philosopher, the soldier, the free spirit. not the prole.

>>19277868
will it? first off you are a westener, that is a given.
among the westeners, what have the western communards accomplished in the past century? all of them settled for a system of capitalism which redistributed wealth. today they sit idle and agitate governments to accept their perversions.

>>19277869
>the people who want to die for no reason are the most interesting and free spirited people in the world
They seem like absolute retards if their aspiration is to be a cog in a wa in which they die

>>19271097
Das Kapital. realise that you will not understand 20% of it on your own. Let David Harvey guide your readings. Ignore plebs in this thread using philosophical buzzwords to label Marx as if that explains anything.

>>19277940
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBazR59SZXk

>>19277940
Isn't harveys guide only for volume 1 or am i mistaken?

>>19277935
death is no anathema to the glorious

>>19277950
vol 1 + 2 which he argues are the most important to explaining capital, commodites, alientation etc, i.e. Marx. also, Engels assembled vol 3 from Marx's notes after he died so you are safe to miss it as far as i can tell

>>19271097
Kolakowski's Main Currents of Marxism is pretty good.
The first Volume is all about Marx's influences and philosophy. Volume two and three are about later Marxists and Kolakowski isn't sugar-coating his opinion about any of them.

>>19277989
You are not safe to miss out on volume 3 unless you only want a partial understanding on marxism.
>kolakowski shill is here
EVERY THREAD

>>19277998
>You are not safe to miss out on volume 3 unless you only want a partial understanding on marxism.

you are mistaken sir

>>19277998
volume 3 cuts off abruptly at the end. it’s not by any means a completion, but it still doesn’t hurt to read if you’ve already made it through 1 and 2

>>19278022
you should read the Grundrisse since it’s basically an abridged version of what a complete Capital would have looked like

>>19277869
we can have battle royales for people like you anon. the rest of us can watch. your organs will be harvested for those who clearly can put them to better use than you
>the ideal is the artist, the intellect, the philosopher, the soldier, the free spirit. not the prole.
these are pretty much all proletarian. if you're not in the exploitation game then you are working class, modulo vestigial remnants of peasantry and serfdom
I continue to be amazed with the dumb shit libs like you come up with on this board day in and day out

>>19277579
I would also say anti duhring

>>19277940
meaningless labels still explain him better than Harvey
>>19277993
the fact you derived from the book that Marx had a philosophy tells one everything one needs to know about it

>>19276493
Reading theory is unironically more important.

>>19272302
You must understand Marx to understand Hegel.

>>19277998
whats wrong with kolakowski

>>19271806
>e.g.
Hope to God that that's just a typo and that you actually do know how to use that abreviation correctly.

>>19276499
>Uberogasmic models
um, yes please?

>>19279000
Volume 3 is the only good volume of Kołakowski.

Kołakowski is a theological catholic in mentality. He can't see the class or praxis because he's confounded by bourgeois ideology, for instance Kołakowski takes *LENIN'S* line on the KAPD in volume 3. Seriously?

Also he didn't write Volume 4 on post 1945 marxism.

destroy the cities invest in peasants ... (real parasites are in the city)

>>19279571
pol pot is that you?

>>19271097
chopping your penis its the only way to truly understand marx

>>19279742
>chopping your penis its the only way to truly understand marx

>>19279765
snip snip tranny

>>19271097
We even asking? We both know, you won't.

>>19272189
The most famous jew of modern times.

>>19274115
You are taking individualism to an autistic extreme

>>19271097
Ludwig von Mises

>>19279542
>Kołakowski is a theological catholic in mentality.
based?

>>19280101
I will

>>19282137
You will not finish. Only exceptional individuals, with either a lot of time, or top percentile intellectual faculties, willpower, and even background (basic level in economics before even starting), can do it. You either need to be above average, and have a lot of time, or be exceptional, being able to read dozens of complicated pages, each day, or you will finish in 20 years.
That said, why not answer the question. Das Kapital, volume, 1,2,3, and then, German ideology. Then the rest.

>>19278264
You are such a fucking poser psued you should unironically kill yourself and stop posting in that order

>>19282438
fine ill do it
can I call ppl on /pol/ 'chuds' once I complete it?

>>19283262
You will not finish it. Youre best off watching Jordan Peterson videos so you can pretend you know how to rebuke Marxism . Dw most people will have no clue that you don't know what you're talking about

>>19283297
>you know how to rebuke Marxis
i'm already Hitlerpilled to the fuckin max m8
i'm not in it so I can rebuke it, but to understand Marxist thought. I hate chudcels more than Marxists do

>>19283314
b a s e d

Get a job, then Marxism will make sense

>>19284281
no, I am bourgeois through and through
I want to learn how to exploit the dumb proles and get super wealthy

USSR was based.

The USSR went from medieval shithole to industrialized space faring world superpower, and Chinas industry grew massively.

Look at the Chinese military or NK and tell me those are weak men. There's nothing weaker than a right wing man in the 21st century. All they do is stand up for a failing system, worship the fat boomer Trump, and believe schizophrenic conspiracy theories. Capitalism makes you weak and subservient. Always work harder, the rich need more tax cuts, you need to work 60 hour weeks even though you could work 20, eat more junk food and CONSUME AND CONSUME.

Many Americans are brainwashed, they cannot criticize capitalism because capitalism is sacrosanct you never ever talk against it.
This is why you have right wing retards who accuse billion dollar slave driving corporations of being communist because they will make an ad with a gay pride flag

>>19284383
>trump
>right wing

puh leease. the legitimate right wingers are hitlerists or evolans

>>19284383
>This is why you have right wing retards who accuse billion dollar slave driving corporations of being communist because they will make an ad with a gay pride flag
nah but that's what makes the west so strong
despite all this shit, a few chads overcome this and become ubermensch

where are the Elon Musks of China? of North Korea?

>>19282438
TIL I'm exceptional and/or have top autism score. granted I've only gotten as far as finishing vol2. the thiccness of vol3 scares me desu

>>19283314
>i'm already Hitlerpilled
ah so you're retarded

>>19284383
based and developing productive forces through rational use of resources pilled

>The world is split into two main groups: oppressed and oppressor
>in order to free the world of this, we must overthrow the oppressors
>This totally won't create a neverending cycle of self proclaimed oppressed killing oppressors to gain power
>workers unite!!!

>>19285022
>self proclaimed oppressed
that's not how classes work anon

>>19284383
capitalism grows the productive forces, who would've thought
>>19284409
musk is a fucking moron. all of his epic transportation inventions are mogged by regular buses and trains
>>19285022
what is the basis of oppression in the absence of private property? proletarian revolution is not based on an idea of "self-proclaimed oppression" but on the fact that capitalism produces a class of people who have nothing to lose

>>19271097
Since we are all doing this.
Would Socialism work?
Yes.
Will it happen within the next 500 years?
No.
Will the revolution™ come?
No, socialism will be achieved "democratically", a revolution is completely out of the question, with consumerism and similar mentalities calming the masses, with such a lack of privacy and with how strong the state power is.
Is most of the working class retarded?
Yes

I'm glad I live in a world in which socialism or communism haven't been achieved, and won't be achieved within my lifetime. When "it" happens attractive people will only have kids with other attractive people, polyamory will be completely normal, with the 1% of men having sex with as many women as they want and the rest will have the crumbs.
I'm glad my descendants will be happier, tho.

>>19285430
>capitalism produces a class of people who have nothing to lose
How about losing food which can only be produced in quantities able to sustain 8 billion population in a free market capitalist economy.

>>19271097
By going back to plebbit, you dilating r/redscarepod r/chapotraphouse faggot

>>19285454
we have sufficient productive forces to produce enough food for everyone, but thanks to the private mode of appropriation a lot of it is destroyed and people go hungry, because the purpose of production in capitalism is profit, not need satisfaction
>>19285471
why would he go to lib socdems to learn about Marx

>>19285478
All Marxfags are neo-liberals, you underage faggot. You all want the same thing. You are see through. Dilate and go back.

>>19285454
>this is what liberals actually believe
20 million starve to death every year despite us making more than enough food to feed them

>>19285501
>All Marxfags are neo-liberals
don't call us fucking libs, lib

>>19285514
LMAO WHAT AN EPICLY DANK MAYMAY GOOD SIR MAY I JOIN YOUR TRANNY GROOMING DISCORD?

>>19285521
>implying I use proprietary shit like d*scord
are these trannies in the room with us right now?

>>19285501
>>19285521
nice projections. I'm betting my house that you're 16 years old and you're on discord

>>19274115
I’m excited to see what Homo hominids evolve into in the next episode of Earth

>>19285538
Wow. Nice one. Did you just come up with that then off the top of your head? It’s really good. I swear I’ve never seen a /leftypol/ discord tranny tourist use that one before!
>>19285541
Link the /leftypol/ thread or tranny grooming discord you linked this thread on, bro. Come on, don’t be shy.

>>19285558
>has a stash of SRS pictures on hand for some reason
>definitely not obsessed tho
every time
also I use IRC and XMPP, not any of these proprietary mayflies

>>19285580
Go jerk off to loli shit, paedophile subhuman faggot tourist.

>>19285558
I have visited leftypol once 2 years ago. it's even worse than lit because it's full of retarded leftists. what's your point?

>>19285586
Wow! You’re totally blending in, bro. Just like a real 4channeller!

>>19285588
I started coming here around 2007-8. were you even alive back then?

>>19285592
Wow! You’re like a total oldf-slur, bro! Back when 4channel was totally leftist, that’s what I read on /r/chapotraphouse! You have authority over me because you said you came here once in 2007! Which I totally believe! Wowee!

>>19285599
what are you blabbering about? I didn't claim that 4chan was ever leftist or that I have authority over you. stop acting like a retarded child and either make your point or fuck off

>>19285584
stop projecting

>>19285615
ignore the schizo, he's fighting with the ghosts in his head

>>19285615

>>19285621

>>19285626

>>19285599
>>19285615
and if you really care how 4chan was in 2008, the first thing you should know is that people didn't have meltdowns over leftist trannies back then
>>19285629
I'm cis. and as a communist I'm not interested in movements that aren't strictly proletarian in character. I don't know what you're hoping to achieve with this

>>19285648

>>19285629
>>19285639
>>19285646
>implying I give a shit about bourgeois idpol
as >>19285648 says, communists barely give a shit about tranners. meanwhile /pol/, radlibs and 2nd wave feminists are obsessed and screech all day about them

>>19285660
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>19285668
the most mentally stable /pol/tard

>>19285670
Dilate, tourist.
>communists barely give a shit about tranners
I know I shouldn’t be but I am always amazed at the communists lack of discomfort with brazen and constant lying, even within the same breath.

>>19285692
neither me nor the other anon are trans. but given how obsessed you are, maybe there's something you're not telling us anon?

>>19285692
read The Housing Question by Engels if you want to know what attitude communists take to issues that aren't strictly proletarian class issues
>It is with just such sufferings as these, which the working class endures in common with other classes, and particularly the petty bourgeoisie, that petty-bourgeois socialism, to which Proudhon belongs, prefers to occupy itself. And thus it is not at all accidental that our German Proudhonist occupies himself chiefly with the housing question, which, as we have seen, is by no means exclusively a working class question; and that, on the contrary, he declares it to be a true, exclusively working class question.
he's literally dismissing as pseudo-socialism the attitude you're trying to ascribe to communists here, i.e. claiming inter class issues to be proletarian issues.
but of course you wouldn't know. you haven't read shit and you're just talking out of your ass, taking at face value what the first lib larper with a marx avatar on twitter has told you

>>19285748
Counter argument: go look at any communist community or speak to any self-professed communist.

>>19285718
>arachnophobic, huh? you must want to fuck/be a spider
Typical communistic abuse of the pseudo-science of jewish psychology.

>>19285558
Why do you even have this disgusting shit saved? why not just announce you are a subhuman, permanently online, degen instead of posting these kind of pictures?
I don't want to see your tranny shit, and if you are going to post it at least give a warning.
Honestly, you shouldn't even be that hard with trannies, because you 2 have a lot in common, you are both mentally illl and will end up with a bullet in the brain before you are 40.

>>19285792
that's not a counter argument, that's just a reiteration of my argument. the bourgeoisie and the petty-bourgeoisie try to undermine communism and to use the workers for their own purposes by painting their struggles red. and this is exactly what Engels is fighting in that text. he shows that those struggles aren't in fact communist because they aren't proletarian class struggles.
if you really think that something is communist because some self-professed "communist community" (that probably doesn't even exist outside the internet) is engaged in it then you're mindbogglingly naive

>>19285878
>its someone elses fault
The mantra of the commie tranny.

>>19285878
I admire your effort anon, but you are arguing with a case of pol that appears to be terminal

>>19284383
Google is not capitalist. I s..s..swear

>>19285892
lol do you think it's the proletariat that puts forward trans liberation as its struggle? it's clearly middle class university students who need a pet cause to make their sad lives more meaningful. that's just a fact. and you're clearly on their side on this issue and you think just like them. no wonder you're so attracted to them and so obsessed

>>19285894
/leftypol/ tourist
>>19285925
Yes, I agree. Communist do not care about workers.

>>19271102
/thread

>>19286016
communism is the movement of the workers. if someone doesn't care about workers then they by definition aren't communists. but you seem to be so enamored with those twitter leftists that you're willing to ignore basic logic and take them at their word when they say they're communists

A better question to ask is where do I stop.

>>19286051
Communists care about mudslime rapists, violent niggers, chink billionaires, female CEOs and trannies. You do not give a fuck about workers.

>>19286079
Oh, and giving wetbacks our jobs.

>>19286079
The Chud enters mantramode to protect his uninformed biases. Many such cases.

>>19274615
That's just when a bunch of young crows flock together to pair up and look for food. They don't meticulously distribute it between themselves.

>>19286096
>chud
Thanks for confirming that you are in fact a tranny /leftypol/ discord reddit tourist faggot who will never be a woman. So toothless and pathetic he can’t even allow himself to use a real insult. Go jerk off to your loli collection and whine about the nigger Dave Chapelle on twitter, incel.

>>19286096
Am I wrong????? How does importing millions of shitskins help the working class?????

>>19286083
>rapists
wall
>violent niggers
organized criminals are petty bourgeois who, if they don't get with the program, get the wall
>chink billionaires
the CCP tolerates billionaires so long as they don't step out of line. jack ma disappeared for a while precisely because of this, and has changed his tune since
>female CEOs
porkies get the wall regardless of sex
>trannies
again, we don't give a shit. they're mentally ill
>Oh, and giving wetbacks our jobs.
noo not our jobs we need those to generate profit for porky noooooo

>>19286126
The incel chud continues to repeat his mantra "Om Mani Jews Out To Get Me Hum Om Man Jews Out To Get Me Hum" to protect his delicate little worldview from being snuffed out by the harsh winds of reality.

>>19286134
>>19286136

>>19286134
>>19286136
Not even trying to hide that you’re blatant /leftypol/ discord tranny reddit faggot raiding tourists. Gay buzzwords and shitty edgy jokes.

>>19286147
The incel chud is rendered nonverbal in the face of critique, thus regressing even father back from childhood to the infant stage.

>>19286129
idk, ask the liberals who are pushing for it.

>>19286079
some lumpens are beyond educating

>>19286151
>Gay buzzwords and shitty edgy jokes.
> /leftypol/ discord tranny reddit faggot raiding tourists.

The incel chud mindbroken by the thick veiny cock of truth has curled up and began talking about himself in the third person.

>>19286134
nazbols get the wall
terfs get the wall

>>19277869
Commies are just utilitarian bugmen. Veblen was right about their ilk. They can only see things in terms of input and output like soulless machines. Their destiny would drive humanity to extinction as it would prove too inefficient

>>19286157
Yet you defend it constantly and unreservedly and at every single possible opportunity push for more and screech about racism to anyone who says it might not be a great idea. Kill yourself.

>>19286160
>>19286163
>>19286164
You have to go back to /leftypol/.

>>19286170
>you
I don't. The phantoms in your head do, but they are not important as your particular little neurotic psychodramas have nothing to do with actual reality.

>>19286168
You can see this especially when they talk about overpopulation. They would genuinely prefer to see the whole world paved over with grey commieblocks than tell a single nigger he can’t come to the West.

>>19286184
It really is amazing how easily you commies lie and how obvious they are too. That’s what gets me. You will just straight up tell a lie that you know is a lie and that you know I know is a lie.

>>19286175
>you have to stop owning me
>you have to go away so I feel better about myself

What a coward lol.

>>19286198
>owning
>redditspacing
>lol
Epic. Simply epic.

You don't read marx. Marxism is a waste of time and for liderals in denial

>>19286197
What fascinates me is how you probably think you are on the vanguard of some form of youth conservatism/fascism but are entirely informed by boomer ideology pushed by the state department who also push the open borders rhetoric to liberals who you have been psyop'd in to misidentifying as communists, just like your parents generation did.

>>19286198
>>you have to stop owning me
That's what commies keep telling me and I keep telling them that if they don't work they die

>>19286202
>youre poor
>gay erotica
>lol the wall so edgy
Wow. I’m so pwned, my dude.

>>19286151
>>19286175
again the delusional /pol/ack thinks me and the other guy are trans. have you taken your pills today anon?

>>19286164
I'm OK with this

>>19286216
Meant for >>19286198 this faggot.

>>19286202
The incel chud resorts appeals to....formatting in lieu of any meaningful rebuttal.

Imagine being triggered by punctuation and formatting lol.

What a special little snowflake you are.

>>19286214
Commie conspiracy theories are very interesting. It's clear how much they try to construct flaws and non existent conspiracies to justify their ideology

>>19286129
the only thing that helps workers is labour organizing
yet as it stands, white american proles are fucked beyond redemption. fat amoral failures interested only in short term material gain and entirely controlled by anti-intellectual fascistic polemicists who are increasingly also turning more and more into fat amoral failure interested only in short term material gain.
immigrants, on the other hand, are blank slates. they are typically smarter and more educated than the low-value whites they have to compete with. their material conditions are technically worse. in other words if there is to be a labour revolt it has to go through them.

>>19286221
>>19286224
LMAO HAVE I TAKEN MY PILLS LMAO THATS A GOOD ONE YOU /LEFTYPOL/ NIGGER WORSHIPPING FAGGOT TRANNIES SHRE ARE CREATIVE AND ORIGINAL LMAO LE CHUD LE EPIC NON SLUR INSULT PUSHED BY CHAPO TRAP HOUSE REALLY CUTS ME DEEP OUCH!

>>19286224
LE TRIGGERED AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LE SNOWFLAKE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>19286232
>>19286237
angry word salad

>>19286231
The mask slips.

>>19286231
Wow, you’re even more retarded and evil than I thought.

>>19286226
Your posts are very interesting for how your rhetoric is indistinguishable from a twitter bluecheck. You are a hair's width away from citing snopes now.

>>19286244
>>19286250
He's not wrong, he's just incorrectly assuming that it is due to fascistoid polemic, and not the fact that American proles are themselves exploiters.

>>19286244
>>19286250
devastating maga shits is one of my favourite pastimes

>>19286231
Gotta disagree with you dude. You just sound like a liberal with the typical fashionable distaste for rural and low paid workers.

Third Worldism is just inverted Orientalism. If you write off your own working class because they currently don't agree with you then you are just setting yourself up for another 100 years of failure.

>>19286079
which communists?
>>19286134
>the CCP tolerates billionaires so long as they don't step out of line.
just like every other bourgeois government. that's one of the functions of the capitalist state as described by Engels
>>19286197
it's been already proven to you that the problem is simply that you don't understand who communists are because your entire knowledge of the subject is built off of internet memes. you're probably too adhd to even read a single book

>>19286231
>>19286258
>>19286259
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I WISH I COULD BE THERE ON THE DAY YOU FIND OUT HOW THE REAL WORLD WORKS HOW EMBARRASSING FOR /LEFTYPOL/

>>19286259

>>19286226
There's absolutely nothing conspiratorial about what he said.

>>19286276
If you ignore the definition for conspiracy then sure I guesd

>>19286232
I'm not the one writing in allcaps like an overgrown child

>>19286265
>just like every other bourgeois government. that's one of the functions of the capitalist state as described by Engels
except in mainland China the billionaires are under the thumb of the political system, whereas in bourgeois states it is the other way around. I'm no fan of dengoids, but they're doing their thing and until we get a DotP going in the west the onus is on us to fix our shit, not the CCP

>>19286274
XR is a glow op you idiot

>>19286263
I'm not against the idea of bringing these people into class consciousness. only, after critical mass is achieved. there is no place for retrograde idpol in a labour revolt and that's all they bring to the table currently.
>>19286269
the id has collapsed

>>19286274
Apple iphone teen bourgeoise eat the onions tranny ect. Why can't you faggots come up with something new

real commies use gnu/linux

Some retarded marxist brought up crows as an example of marxism in nature, as if the crow doesn't exploit the small birds when it steals their young and devours them

>>19286284
Yeah, why can’t these magashit snowflake chuds who need to face the wall and take their pills come up with something new?

>>19286279
>Ben Shapiro voice
seeth and foreskin regen, golem

>>19286287
based and GNU pilled

>>19286291
Seek Christ.

>>19286298
Is Ben in the thread with us now anon?

>>19286282
Commie trannies latch onto the Jewish pseudo-science of psychology because they’re all abnormal degenerate freaks and project that into everyone else.

>>19286307
carbon copies of him are

>>19286307
Are you circumcised anon?

>>19286307
LMAO PEOPLE WHO DONT THINK LIKE ME ARE ALL MENTALLY ILL LMAO
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
Same old, same old from the tranny commies.

>>19286311
>Jewish pseudo-science of psychology

>>19286320
See >>19286317 and >>19286291 and dilate.

>>19286312
>>19286316
Why does ben bother you so much? Of all the people you meet on 4chan you seethe most when Ben is brought up. In fact, you are the ones to bring him up

>>19286320
>male rapist paedophile who thinks growing breasts makes him a woman calling someone else a schizo

As degenerate idpol tranny bullshit increasingly becomes centralized by capitalism, actual material leftism will be taken up by cultural conservatives and it's going to be based.

>>19286330
No, you see, it's just funny because he's a spritely jew, and often his midwit debating style is imitated in these kind of discussions.

>>19286281
>except in mainland China the billionaires are under the thumb of the political system, whereas in bourgeois states it is the other way around.
no, in both places the political system exists only to sustain capitalism and the profitability of capital investment. and in both places it pretends that this is actually for the benefit of the people or the nation
>the onus is on us to fix our shit, not the CCP
the onus is on the workers of the world to overthrow the rule of capital, in China just as much as and in the West
>>19286317
the USSR was capitalist
>>19286335
"material leftism" means the reform of capitalism. but you're onto something because this is in fact a task that both social democrats and fascists assume

>>19286335
it'll enter the mainstream and labour movements will start to reflect it
which means you'll be completely barred from them unless you change
this isn't speculation. it's already happened

Right wingers actually do have a place in a communist world. As a communist society is one without specialization and one of constant change in labor between individuals, and no established hierarchy/state then right wingers can simply choose to leave their communes and establish a nomadic brigand warrior society that easily preys on the ill-regimented communists who have no standing warrior class to perfect its craft. Sounds kinda cool.

>>19286344
When /leftypol/ sends their people, they’re not sending their best.

>>19286328
>>19286333
your obsession with trans people just proves me and the other anon's point

>>19286335
>actual material leftism will be taken up by cultural conservatives and it's going to be based
yes

>>19286344
>a whole bunch of leftcom nonsense

>>19286341
It's funny because the guy who coined the term midwit was Vox Dei. Either way I think you just see what's on your mind

>>19286352
sounds like a power fantasy of a 15 year old who's being bullied in school
>>19286353
>a whole bunch of leftcom nonsense
nice argument, just like that of the other moron. the only difference being that instead of calling me a tranny you use another label

>>19286357
You’re not even trying to hide the fact that you’re a fucking faggot /leftypol/ tourist. Just go back, bro. You’re not changing anyone’s mind. You’re fucking pathetic and revolting. No one will ever side with you.

>>19286364
>sounds like a power fantasy of a 15 year old who's being bullied in school
Ironic

>>19286366
why would anyone want to convince a mentally ill teenager obsessed with trannies of anything

>>19286357
>trans people
>all lowercase writing like his hero shawn the faggot
>redditspacing
Go listen to another chapo podcast and jerk off to loli shit.

>>19286377
C'mon you have to admit that trannies are pretty disgusting.

>>19286364
>sounds like a power fantasy of a 15 year old who's being bullied in school
Nice projection and analysis of communism but can you not see how an actual commie society cannot defend itself from specialized warriors?

>>19286377
So why are you here? Go away. Go dilate or listen to chapo or jerk off to little anime school girls or groom minors into taking oestrogen or whatever it is you do for fun. Just stop shitting up this board with the same old retarded le epic fully automated luxury gay space communism le face le wall le chuds posts, faggot

>>19286390
Trannies are the ultimate end product of neoliberal capitalism and jew idpol word games.

>>19286388
communist society won't have to defend itself from figments of your imagination
>>19286390
"fully automated luxury gay space communism" is a catchword for middle class leftists that has nothing to do with communism

Total shitshow of a thread (is it even /lit..)
Like all commie countries coincidentally or not kek.

>>19286428
no such thing as communist countries.

>>19286435
Da, comrade. It’s only communism if it follows all of my personal definitions 100% to letter. It wasn’t real communism. One more try. It will work this time. I’ll cut my penis off.

>>19286444
my personal definitions are irrelevant. the only relevant characteristics are the objective ones discovered by Marx
and you're free to cut your penis off if you're so turned on by the thought of it

>>19286157
>caplan
>weinersmith
Really makes you think.

>>19283314
>i'm already Hitlerpilled to the fuckin max m8
So you know that HItler was financed by Rotschild, Rockefeller, Warburg, Astor, onasis, Morgan, Bush, IG farben (property of Rockefeller), AEG (Same), Standard oil (Same).

>>19286444
It's only communism, in my opinion, if it follows the conditions Marx defined. That is, abolition of commodity, wage labor, money. It's pretty simple.
If not, it's fake communism, aka State Capitalism.
Also, reminder, that the bolsheviks weren't even capable of inferior communism, which is communism with labor vouchers instead of money.

>>19286460
>>19286512
You’re such a pathetic retarded cliche.

>>19286493
bruh that's newfag shit
I said im maxxed

>>19286406
>communist society won't have to defend itself from figments of your imagination
Communist soviety won't ever exist outside your imagination

>>19286512
>in my opinion
science is not a matter of opinion

>>19286493
it's rude to bully the mentally challenged anon

>Anyone who speaks of communism in Italy today is a corporatist impatient about the necessary delays in the development of an idea that is the temperate correction of the communist utopia and the most logical and therefore truer statement than what one can expect from communism.

>>19286435
Sure, and never will be because gommunism is an unachievable utopia of never-ending abundance with "everybody to his needs" rofl. The road to gommunism is deadly enough.

>>19286747
communist society doesn't require "never-ending abundance". "everyone according to his needs" is a principle of distribution, which is always limited by the quantity of the total social product available. it doesn't mean that the quantity of the total social product itself will be infinite to satisfy every possible human need.
so if you yourself turn it into a utopia for the purposes of making an argument that it's a utopia, then wow, no shit, it's going to be a utopia! outside of that, it isn't

>>19286870 (You)
>>19286747
and the road to communism is the same thing as the decomposition of capitalist society. its character is not the fault of communism

>>19286876
But that would mean that you did achieve communism plenty of times already as there were no individual owners of the means of production.
Everybody knows that, the "not true communism" was your last line of defense which has already fallen.

>>19286918
communism doesn't just mean that they are no individual owners of the means of production, it means that all of them are held in common. also the USSR had individual owners of the means of production.
>Everybody knows
you mean everybody who doesn't even understand what communism is? why would I give a shit?

>>19287050
there are no individual owners*

>>19287050
>also the USSR had individual owners of the means of production
There were no privately owned factories, the only thing that matters for communists. We know that you would let us own a shovel or a fishing rod.