/lit/ - Literature

>>19268539
meme. stop shilling your book.

You're in for wondering wtf is going on for two books before suddenly wondering how the fuck Wolfe has done this

>>19268539
Kino anon, kino

>>19268555
Trips of truth

Wolfe is kino.

>>19268539
The book is a trip, there's more to it than the main character just swinging his phallic symbol around

Good prose written as kind of a fever dream with a bunch of disjointed sketches forming together. There isn't much of a narrative or clear direction, but it's a fun read.

>>19268539
book 3 is the best .followed by number 4 then 1 then 2.the 5th is fine but i suggest you to not read it . the first four should suffice for understanding the plot. the 5 kinda explains too much and ruins the mystich feelz. overall 8/10 would recommend

>>19270049
>There isn't much of a narrative
Never change, /lit/.

>>19270184
What's the narrative then?

I'm going to be completely honest; you're going to spend the first two books probably frustrated because it feels like nothing is really happening, Severian is just wandering around doing random shit, none of this makes sense, and then book three is going to feel like receiving a revelation from Christ himself and it will all make sense, it just depends if you want to stick with it for two books before it gets good (on the bright side, the books aren't exactly doorstoppers either; each one of them is about 300-350 pages each, pretty short by fantasy standards; it's not like GoT or WoT where you have to read three 900+ page monsters before it gets good)

>>19268539
great thread op

>>19270555
>book three is going to feel like receiving a revelation from Christ himself and it will all make sense

Can you hint at what this revelation is? I've already listened to and read a lot of the synopses of BotNS so I'm not concerned with spoilers whatsoever. I understand Severian exists in multiple time frames or something like that, and that he's been guided or groomed into become what he is by alien forces.

Seriously I don't care about spoilers at all, especially not for this work which seems so convoluted and open to interpretation that 3 people will have 3 different assessments of what the story is even about.

>>19268539
It's kino of the highest order. Just keep in mind that every single detail means something and Wolfe obfuscates with his word usage. Good luck.

Can anyone here actually comment on any of the deeper themes of the book?

>>19270682
You know about the secret history of time right? All of it.

I think it's totally unfair to categorize Wolfe and Botns as sci-fi, not because it isn't, but it really is tremendous literature and not just good genre fiction. The first 2 books can be challenging, 3 is the one that's most popular, but I really enjoyed the first two.

>>19268539

>>19271418

BotNS does have some pretty Jewish themes in it. I've read that Severian basically represents a messianic figure from the left side of the Kaballistic Tree of Life, which represents severity (hint hint with his name), which also makes him a false messiah or anti-Christ of sorts. What's your opinion on BotNS from the perspective of critiquing Jewish supremacist doctrines?

>tfw no Jolenta bimbofied gf
What's the point?

space gods took my penis as punishment is good writing according to /lit/. The journey in botns was better than the destination and the ending felt rushed. People on the internet overrate this series, especially /tv/ crossposters but it is by no means bad

>>19268539
Go to bed, boomer

Is there any sort of moral message to this book?

>>19271228
There aren't any. It's stoner core for shut-in losers

>>19271667
If you are a bad boy the space gods will take your penis

I hate how wolfe killed of little severian. It felt like he was going to do something with him but he just fucking died a few chapters later because I guess wolfe was too lazy to drop him off at the next town or something.

>>19271681
wow that's really deep anon, thanks.

>>19271661
Why is this popular on /tv/? BM is popular because of the question of its hollywood adaptation, but Wolfe's work has largely been passed over in favor of more genre sci-fi.

>>19271487
wot? i've never actually read it. i just blindly spread memes over the internet, you silly faggot.

>>19271689
Severian also raped little Severian before then.

>>19271810
That's your own wishful thinking.

>>19271705
It gets posted a lot along with Hyperion in "cast it" threads. You can tell which posters ITT are /tv/ users because they use the word kino to describe a book.

>>19271689
I actually remember being very happy seeing him get ZAPPED after 2 chapters because I feared the series was pulling a Berserk turn into some lame Sev + little kid anime story.

>>19268539
this series is pretty nice. There are a number of times where cryptic language is used to describe an item or location, but it is satisfying to find out what the word means and have it in your mind the next time it comes up (like sabretache or whatever the word was, being a cavalryman's bag basically).

Series was good enough that I went through all the books and am onto the next one. See how you like the first book and go from there

>>19268539
It is very good. I would say it is overrated on /lit/, underrated everywhere else

>>19271667
Moral messages are for children. You should have worked out your notions of morality by the time you enter adult life.

>>19270510
It's got some of the best linear plotting ever devised. There are plot threads that take multiple volumes to resolve, so that you have to refer back to the earlier books just to confirm what happened. Clearly you weren't paying attention.

>>19268555
Literally this. It's amazing how these books transition from random shit happening to seeing all the connections and meaning by the end.

>>19272917
>Literally this
The books are fucking gay

I read books 1 & 2 a couple months ago and liked them. didn't know 3 & 4 were better, I hope I can pick them up without having to re-read the others.

>>19271841
Not him but it's pretty fucking clear. I was wondering why Severian mentioned that they didn't have sex, and then you had the line about the pedo doctor in the temple ruin. It's there.

>>19271371
>but it really is tremendous literature and not just good genre fiction.
you need to drop this distinction

>>19273225
>I hope I can pick them up without having to re-read the others.

You definitely can't. It is absolutely crucial that you remember many details from the first two books or you will miss most of the fun. Sorry anon but you'll have to start again.

>>19272665
Do you know moral philosophy is an academic field, arguably the furthest of any philosophy field from reaching agreement?

>>19274124
It should have been released as one book if that's true.

>>19273914
No, it's not pretty fucking clear. For one, you didn't even come to that conclusion yourself, you read some other asshole's interpretation and thought it was a convincing argument. However, he, and you, are idiots. The passage in question is:

>I knew then how Dorcas had felt when Jolenta died. There had been no sexual play between the boy and me, as I believe there had at some time been between Dorcas and Jolenta; but then it had never been their fleshly love that had aroused my jealousy. The depth of my feeling for the boy had been as great as Dorcas’s for Jolenta, surely (and surely greater far than Jolenta’s for Dorcas). If Dorcas had known of it, she would have been as jealous as I had sometimes been, I thought, if only she had loved me as I had loved her.

This whole retarded theory rests on comparing Severians "unsolicited remark" about having sex with little Sev to Old Leech's "unsolicited remark" about the 13 year old boy sharing his bed. However, this is idiotic on a number of levels. To begin with, Old Leech had just said something mildly pedoerotic when he said "to share my bed with me" and could easily be construed as just saying "I know how it sounds, but actually I just like the company of a young man nearby in my advanced age, makes me feel young again." Much in the same way that Michael Jackson described why he slept with young boys, which to our minds is blatantly pedosexual, and yet there were multiple court cases with no evidence he had sex with those boys, the witnesses recanted their allegations, etc. etc.

Secondly, Severians remark about little Severian wasn't unsolicited either. He's literally comparing his feelings for little Sev to Dorcas' feelings for Jolenta, who DID have a sexual relationship together. He's basically saying "I feel for little Sev just like Dorcas felt for Jolenta, except for the sexual part you know about, dear readers." This whole theory rests on autistic and wishful thinking. Severian is making a comparison that very well could be interpreted as implying he was romantically/sexually attracted to little Sev, and he's just saying "Make no mistake, while I did love little Sev as deeply as Dorcas loved Jolenta, my love didn't go as far as theirs did."

And the irony of it all is also lost on the idiots that believe he's hinting at having fucked little Sev, because really, Severian DIDN'T really love him that deeply. It should be apparent he's lying to himself and the reader to make himself feel better about little Sev's death. The way he's gushing about how he loved little Sev is so emotionally embellished that he catches himself almost going so far as suggesting he had romantic/sexual feelings for the boy, when the reality is he never really cared for him at all, and in fact resented him in some ways, and was relieved when he died.

Reading in that he's a closet pederast is just wishful thinking by immature redditards who are very likely themselves closeted homos/pedos. It's projection.

>>19274129
He originally wrote it as, and intended to release it as, a single book, but his publisher demanded that he break it up into a series for sales.

>>19271371
https://archive.org/details/genewolfe
Wolfe had a stance on this that would probably make half of lit rage. He wasn't opposed to the sci-fi label though.

>>19271661
You're confusing the book with the passive aggressive sequel.

>>19273914
some very vague passages twisted around almost lead to your conclusion = Pretty clear

It's not for everyone, if you aren't a catholic you will miss alot of what he is writing about, like if you read latro in the mist without having a solid foundation of greek mythology

>>19275533
>if you aren't a catholic you will miss alot of what he is writing about

Like what.

>>19275577
pretty much everything honestly, but you won't know unless you know,
for example the claw is described as contained in a pyx, which is what the eucharist is stored in, now this may seem small and insignificant, and it is, but this kind of stuff is littered through the whole book, more about obvious stuff like water to wine you'll know, there's a interview where Wolfe talks about how he wrote it while/shortly after converting and how it's a heavy influence

>>19275661
That's not unique to Catholicism though. There's just as much in the book that draws from Orphic mythology, and Kabbalah as well. The name "Severian" itself is most likely an allusion to the left hand path on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, which represents the aspects of severity that lead to wisdom in the Ein Sof.

Saying that not only do you need to be familiar with Catholicism, but actually BE a Catholic to understand BotNS is pathetic self-aggrandizing autofellatio.

>>19275751
>The name "Severian" itself is most likely an allusion to the left hand path on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, which represents the aspects of severity that lead to wisdom in the Ein Sof.
you literally just read that and copy pasted someone else's opinion didn't you? I know cos when I was looking for that interview I mentioned just now i also saw that...
fucking idiot, also that's the stupidest theory for his name I've ever seen.
>left hand path on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life
Lmao

>>19275848
>you literally just read that and copy pasted someone else's opinion
No, I figured that out as soon as he started using Kabbalistic terms like Yesod, about 5 years before the internet was even a common thing in people's houses, you fucking dipshit.

>Lmao
Wow look everyone, an idiot!

>>19275863
Oh okay explain how severian comes from a kabbalistic term them

>>19275950
Think of the etymology of the name Severian, dumbfuck. Now read this:

>https://www.rimasons.org/trestleboard/212-the-esoteric-meaning-of-the-twin-pillars-boaz-joachim

You're welcome, you little prick.

>>19275986
You're a big boy try to use your own words champ not some link.
Severin is a historical name, a few saints have it, but yeah maybe it comes from the English translation of a kabbalistic word severity... somehow becoming Severian.... lolol does that make sense to you idiot?
anyway here's gw
>I also gave the people and other beings in the book real names (the only exception I can think of is the Ascian who appears in The Citadel—"Loyal to the Group of Seventeen"). "Severian," "Vodalus," and "Agilus," for example, are all ordinary, if now uncommon, names for men. And if you'd like to call your baby daughter "Valeria," "Thecla," or "Dorcas," she'll be receiving a genuine name many women in the past have had (and some in the present).

>>19276035
Severian is Latin, not an "English translation" you fucking retard. You deserve to be insulted because you're stupid but think your smart. Do you know the word for what I just said you were? It's derived from Latin, too.

>>19276072
Are you stupid?
try reading it again dummy
>English translation of a kabbalistic word
see how you need to read the entire sentence?
>You deserve to be insulted because you're stupid but think your smart
oof that didn't age well huh?

>>19276086
You are the stupidest person I've ever conversed with on this site. I'll let you meditate on what's already been said because there no combination of words I can write at this point that will make the simplicity of my message any more clear. You should be embarrassed, and the fact you aren't is a testament to why you're not.

>>19276118
this didn't go well for you mate, take the L with a bit of dignity next time

>>19276156
Maybe try suicide.

>>19276159
you want to use your own words to explain how Severian "itself is most likely an allusion to the left hand path on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, which represents the aspects of severity that lead to wisdom in the Ein Sof."
Lololol nah I didn't think so, fucking idiot

>>19274129
It was written as one book, and he had it all ready before the first part was published. Trilogies were in vogue at the time, and it was intended to be published as one, but he edited into a tetralogy because the last book would have been too long otherwise.

>>19268539
>if not the greatest, scifi writer of all time?
That's Scott Bakker

>>19271667
convert to catholicism

>>19276086
Fag

>>19273914
>saying there was no sexual relationship actually means there was a sequel relationship because I said so
>no, I don't actually have any evidence
Keep your cringe pedo fantasies to yourself

>>19275661
>"heh, ONLY catholics can TRULY understand BotNS"
>how so
>"UHHHH he uses this one throwaway word unique to a catholic religious item, and uhhhhhhh... just trust me"
Every time.

>>19276898
Well, it does require an understanding of Christianity. There are also many characters named after saints, whose roles mirror their namesakes.
That said, it doesn't really require you to know any of the pagan traditions retained in the Romish faith.

>>19276898
>"UHHHH he uses this one throwaway word unique to a catholic religious item, and uhhhhhhh... just trust me"
trust me? nah look it up yourself idiot

>>19276943
You're a pretentious pseud. Just stfu.

>>19277103
Holy fuck you're retarded. You didn't even understand what his caricature of you. Please just leave the thread. Stop posting. Idiot.

>>19277109
>idiot doesn't understand when he is being belittled
shocking stuff