/lit/ - Literature

I am writing a love sonnet for my oneitis ( she is Portuguese_)
I have only written the first stanza first
You’ve took my heart, and all my thoughts therein,
Return it not, lest winter colds it more,
You Portuguese, keep my heart in Portugal’s heat,
And all myself will scald like early morn’.

>>19233736
No Taylor OP no feedback from me

>>19233753
Make a reference to the Anglo-Portubro Alliance. Assuming you are a superior-bred Bong, of course.

>>19233753

I really like it except the "Portuguese" after "You".

How does /wg/ prefer to write antagonists?
Personally, I like antagonists that support other goals of the protagonist while preventing them from a more important goal. Antagonists that you'd prefer to get along with out of sympathy for their motivations. This makes the protagonist doubt himself or fear either the antagonist is insincere or that something else is behind it.

>>19232520
I found that I am largely unwilling to break off from my hobbies and time with friends even if it means not writing for days at a time, which translates to mounting anxiety about not writing and going days past deadlines, leading to frustrations of uneven upload schedules. I realize I will simply never be a fast writer with a concise work ethic.

In the past, I've fantasized about killing off protagonists and favorite characters. But now that I've sat down for a year and a half writing characters that I've come to to have sunken fallacy with, I can't bear the thought of actually letting them die alone in pools of blood with their lost thoughts being they're full of regrets for all the people they've let down. It's fascinating to fantasize about, but I can't bring myself to execute that, I feel like everything I would have done until that point would feel like its all for naught. Now I just want my characters to kiss eahcother and live out their lives in peace munching eachother's carpetes. I also think writing made me like girls being gay with each other.

>>19233807
I like "blunt" villains, antagonists who are so powerful in the setting they don't bother hiding from anyone, whose presence in the story is felt from the very beginning all the way to the end. I don't like stories where "X WAS THE BAD GUY ALL ALONG?!", the goal should be to deal with them from the start, but no one can do anything about them.
Bonus points if they serve as a representation of what the hero would be if they lost their way.

>>19233765
That's okay, no-one here even writes. So it'll be pointless.

>>19233807
My antagonists are more just in their goals than my main casts and are generally straightforward because my main cast is just that terrible. I prefer to keep both parties morally grey in their ideals, neither are sympathetic so my reader has to make a choice for who root for or just hate them all.

My best friend just said this new story is superb, he hasn't read something this good in a long time and it deserves more than a simple publication, it should be a classic.
He is never lying when it comes to literature. This is the best thing I've ever written. I'm getting better, bros. After all these years I can say it, I'm actually decent.

>>19234191
Oh boy, let me read it!

>>19234203
It's not in English, forgive me, friend.

>>19233807
I make my antagonist take things from the protagonist. In my current major series, the antagonist becomes the close friend of the protagonist and he ends up with the girl they both love. This leads to a rift between them at first, and then after several decades after they make up, the old wound reopens and leads to the end of both of their kingdoms.
In a short story I'm working on, the antagonist (the country itself) has taken things from all the characters: a chance at love, parents, a storied military service, family, and chances at personal accomplishment. It ends with the metaphorical character representing their growing resentment acting to strike back against the antagonist

>>19233807
I like antagonists that seem completely reasonable (or even merely insignificant) when you're talking to them or observing them, but are responsible for atrocities and hold completely wild worldviews.

>>19234257
The scariest antagonist is the one you can empathize and agree with despite them being nearly inhuman monsters. What's the phrase: humans are the real monsters

>>19234257
Same. When I consider antagonists, I take someone who is infamous and see if I can read their writings or listen to them speak on a more personal level. I know Ray Kurzweil gets a bad reputation as being an insane transhumanist. I still think he kind of is one, but I read one of his books. It helped me understand Kurzweil and how to humanize motivations of an antagonist that readers might find despicable or alien.

On another note, just read first 4 chapters of "Story Genius" in the /wg/ links. I've heard some of this advice already. For anyone floundering on how to create a story, I do recommend it. It will help you understand effective questions and answers to put together a story that will compel both you and your readers.

Am I the only one that prefers "pure evil" villains over "morally grey" villains?
Though, most attempts of making a villain "have better motives than the hero" is hamfisted, like giving him a dead family he's trying to avenge

>>19234414
"morally grey" is frankly more evil than pure evil. The one crime G-d won't forgive is taking His name in vain.

>>19234414
That's a bad trope of giving characters too much of a tragic backstory.
>"He watched his family get MURDERED..."
>"Yeah, but he wants to destroy the earth."
>"Isn't that so FUCKING SAD and DEPRESSING?"
>"I sympathize with him, but you can't blow up the planet."
>"... Murdered by his OWN BROTHER..."

A main opponent that doesn't stop the hero from getting his goal is worthless. Cut and cull.

I don't have an antagonist in my story. My antagonistic forces are either the protagonist themselves or nature.

>>19234414
One thing I wanted to explore is the “morally grey” villain who is presented as “black and white” through a cultural lens.
Like a native cannibal who is seen as an abhorrent beyond redemption despite genuinely believing he did nothing wrong due to his cultural upbringing. Someone who could point out how he sees the MC in the same way for different cultural norms he carries.

>>19234448
A good villain should act as a thematic foil first and foremost. If you want to write anime or YA and have to pump out a villain then sure, go with the writing 101 lesson, let’s not pretend it’s a golden rule though.
An antagonist that is resolved through a single gunshot to the face just moments after being introduced can be more impactful than a 78 page action scene where the villain wins.

If I want to write a novel set in the present day but I don't want to deal with cellphones and instant messaging, is it too much of a cop-out to have a disruption in telecommunications take out everything except landlines? Is it too obvious that I just don't want to have people constantly texting and IM-ing each other, or is it something that I can work into the story to my advantage?

>>19234414
I don't mind it but it is extremely difficult to write a "pure evil" character that feels like a real human being. It also often makes the protagonist feel like a good person before they have had a chance to actually prove it (and leads to many writers just not bothering to try and convince us). It's one of the many things in literature that is far too easy to do badly.

>>19234536
That's a massive thing to have happen and not be a major part of your story. It simply won't be believable if its only purpose is to make it so people don't text. You could definitely work it into your story, but don't gloss over it.

Hey y'all, quick question for all the plotters: do you tend to pants your plotting, just making up an outline as you go? Or do you have some kind of pre-plot planning process you do before you get started? First time plotter here.

>>19234553
Read some of the books in the OP. The short answer is that writing anything decent requires you to know your story and your characters, though.

>>19234553
I tend to always have the inciting incident and the ending planned out in my head before I consider it enough to start. From there I generally discovery write the missing sections around the themes I’m trying to get across before the ending.
Does it always come out great? No, but since I’m not a tard who uploads to RoyalRoad I can fix anything I messed up without any real damage.

>>19234553
I just give myself a bullet list of vague "checkpoints" to give myself a basic outline.
Like for example
1. "[Protagonist] makes friends with [character] at [bar]."
2. "[Protagonist #2] gets into a drunken bender"
3. "[Protagonist] figures out a good hospital gift"
I consider theorycrafting and writing your story to be two different things, so I don't spend too much time on the former. Better to figure out how to work things around your actual ability, I say.
While the basic outline tells me how the plot is going to work, I still have to figure out things on the go, sometimes thinking up new characters right on the spot. And in my opinion, having everything figured out from the start just takes away from the excitement of developing the story.

Out of the two of my stories that are ready to be written, my fanfiction is breaking out of the conceptual phase way faster and better than the one that's my own creation. Maybe it's because I know what any of the characters would think at any given moment because they already exist. Maybe it's because it's a cool anime story instead of a boring dorky psychological horror. Maybe that's why all that gets made these days is remakes and super hero movies and remakes of superhero movies.

>>19234546
Thanks, I just don't want to read, "And then nobody could text each other" and have it sound corny. For clarification, I'm writing a haunted house novel, so I'm trying to write it into the story, but I just didn't want it to come off as trite.

>>19234697
Why don't you just not have anyone text each other? Write it above the grade level of any idiot who would bring it up and you'll never have a problem.

>>19234553
imagine outlining an outline
next your gonna start outlilining the outline for your outline
yes of course you just make shit up as you go when you're making an outline
but the thing is that an outline takes about 10 minutes to write and only fills a page or two. you can lay out the major points of your entire story and review it all at once. It's easy to see where things don't make sense and preemptively avoid plot holes and even set up some themes.
I think it's a good idea to start with an outline even if you are more comfortable with discovery writing. You're gonna get writer's block eventually, and having a simple document to remind you of where you're going can break the wall with a single glance.

>>19234711
Unless you're outlining a YA trash where only two things happen and the rest of the book is your characters narrating your worldbuilding guide to each other, yes your outline needs an outline.

>>19234702
Because it is an inexorable part of our world now, the ability to be in constant contact with anyone, so putting an obstacle in between people and communication seems sound enough. I hate the argument that Seinfeld would be impossible with modern cellphones, but there are still people who will make that argument, so I want to nip that in the bud. I thought about setting the story in the late 1980's or mid 1990's, but the story doesn't ring true to me unless I write it about my time, the time I lived and experienced the same timeline the characters did. If I wrote a story where nobody texted or chatted somebody for more than a page, it would shoot the entire story down the drain.

>>19234697
>haunted house novel
This is a common issue in ghost fiction. It's normally resolved by a simple throwaway line like "We have no reception out here" or "The ghost is jamming our communications.".

>>19234553
You don't need an outline for an outline anon

>>19234747
If you're going to be such a cityfag about it, I'd like to point out the fact that it's far less likely for a cityfag to set foot in a house let alone a haunted one than it is for them to have to go without a cell phone for a second. If you can't write the story you're trying to tell, don't.

>>19234765
Well, in this case it's a small liberal arts college and the sleepy rural mountain town down the road, so something has to happen to blackout the entire region.

>>19234778
So make the liberal arts college a little further down the road and have it be out of cell range. This isn't rocket science.
Stop being so scared of some Doug Walker clone pointing out how your story is shit because they didn't explain why there's no cell signal realistically enough.

>>19234774
>>19234789
Thank you for that, I hadn't considered how realistic my story could be if I made certain factors constant (how remote the location is) rather than stressing over setting it in the middle of civilization and having something catastrophic take out a satellite or cell tower. Set limits and have the characters act within those limits (and fuck the haters).

My dream is one day I'll write a fantasy novel and Daniel Greene will say he read it and hated it.

What do you think of this idea?

Earth has long aged past the point where robotic versions of humans are nearly unidentifiable from real people. They act as slaves, but are treated more like items, even though they've long developed emotional capacity and the ability to sustain trauma. Features like that can be removed, but humanity in general, even those who are considered nice, don't often go to the trouble because it's entertaining. The robots are called automations. (working on that name, need a different one)
The story centers on an automation that believes it's a human, has memories of being one, but is treated as an object nevertheless. Every automation in the house of this woman believes they are her children. These children are designed to be the best in their artistic craft, and usually die as geniuses. The plot focuses on an automation that breaks out of the cycle of performing in his late 20s, realizes he is fully human, manages to escape, and seeks to completely destroy humanity by increasingly turning himself into an automation. He does so by removing bits of himself to make himself a weapon, freeing automation slaves, and incapacitating his ability to feel remorse

>>19233736
https://pastebin.com/w9qF1QS5

In terms of poetry publishing, I don't think I'm even going to try in my country. I looked through the academic journals and they're dominated by sexual identity. To even publish alongside such filth is something I couldn't stand.

in your opinion, does plot matter?

>>19235103
Depends on the book but generally yes.

>>19235107
Depends on how good your characters are.

>>19235112
You could have thr greatest characters ever but nobody would be able to tell if they have nothing to do.

>>19235137
If you have great characters, the story would work even if it takes place in a single room on a day with no obligations to do anything. Because their personalities, motivations and ways of thought could create chemistry. It'll probably be romance, but not necessarily.

>>19235167
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

>>19235167
That's still a plot though and the complexity of the characters will force the plot to be deeper than a simple paint by numbers romance novel. I guess the defining thing here is what "matter" means. It matters that there is a plot and it matters that the plot is well chosen to fit with the characters (a book about Anna Karenina trying to become a tennis champion would not be quite as interesting, for example). If you want to define the quality of the plot by how original or creative it is then I would agree that it doesn't always matter.

>>19235167
Whatever example you're thinking of, you ought to read it closer. It's extremely unlikely that you read a book that had nothing but people making small talk with no tension or goals to be reached and that it wasn't a complete waste of time.

>>19234957
Try journals on submittable that aren't pozzed. Many UK or Irish journals don't have that element, too.

>>19235186
>wasn't a complete waste of time.
That's a slippery slope.

>>19233807
Antagonists are protagonists, just from someone else's point of view

>>19234931
well it's not a bad idea but it's not really new either. Think of do androids dream of electric sheep and the blade runner movies.
Still, since it's a growing genre there's nothing wrong with extrapolating from what's already been done.
Unfortunately the parts about him becoming a weapon and removing remorse... is cringy. Why would he want to destroy humanity? I don't know of a single individual except for suicidal mentally ill people that would have that as a goal. And if that person would have that a s a goal, global scale disruption like viruses etc would have a much higher probability of him achieving his goal than him going megaman and shooting lasers out of his arms. Honestly, how bout automation rebellion, that would be the best way to eradicate humanity... oh wait, that hasn't been done, has it?

>>19235207
Speak for yourself. My stories all have an overarching thesis or I don't write them.

>>19235187
I briefly considered poetry magazine (Chicago) but I don't know. Which UK journals are just about poetry and not pushing an agenda?

>>19235245
Just look for independent journals that specifically say they don't want political writing or writing that is about gender/black/latinx shit. There's plenty of them. Do you know where to find the masthead of journals? That will always be a good indication of what they are like before you even read them.

>>19235254
I've not heard that term before but that's a good starting place, thank you.

>>19235224
Well see that's where I'm trying to make it interesting. The character gets messed up before all this, so proper that he thinks resetting things does a service. He more so hates that he's human and wants to replace his skin with metal. Also, no guns no lasers, he's just punching through people.
That also brings the other part, yes there is a revolution of automations. He's just the biggest guy in the room.

>>19235224
i should probably add the theme too, maybe it'll make more sense
the entire time throughout the story we get more bits of what went on before when he was a kid, things that happened to him and how he developed this mentality that people, including himself, need to die.
The story is an arch of his descent into something horrible before coming to a point of acceptance. In the end of it all, he agrees to let humanity pass on naturally and be the waiting race to take over when they finally destroy themselves.

>>19234931
No. Don't do this. Don't enable the Blade Runner fags and their "hurr brain is computer muh Roko's Basilisk" misunderstanding of what AI is and can be.

>>19235440
This makes it even worse. You need to go outside and talk to real people, preferably a therapist.

>>19235456
>No. Don't do this. Don't enable the Blade Runner fags and their "hurr brain is computer muh Roko's Basilisk" misunderstanding of what AI is and can be.
Can you elaborate on this? Do you mean that an AI wouldn't torture people or become totalitarian?

How do you come up with a title, anons? Short of a single word that relates to the theme or mining Shakespeare for something vaguely relevant I can't come up with a single thing.

>>19235500
I love thinking, thinking is what I do for fun. And man, have I thought up some good titles in my day.

>>19235500
>mining Shakespeare
This is what I do. Also use simple titles like Brothers Grimm, e.g., "The Godfather"

>>19235500
Titles are a pain.

>>19235500
"Marmalade Everglade" there you go, there's a title for your novel.

>>19235495
AI can't "do" anything of its own volition, or even have a volition, because it's a computer program. You know what one of those are, right?

>>19235500
The title answers a single question: "what is this?"

Examples:
>Stream of Consciousness
>From My Ass
>Making It Up!
>The Life of Anonymous
>Much Ado About Nothing

>>19235533
So your argument is bound up with assumptions that a mind cannot emerge from a computer, because you think it must have self-awareness, desires, will, etc. Have you never heard of sentience? I think you're arguing from that Chomsky soundbite that a Turing test doesn't do much by way of measuring intelligence.

Help me finish the second stanza

You’ve took my heart, and all my thoughts therein,
Return it not, lest winter colds it more,
You Portuguese, keep my heart in Portugal’s heat,
And all my soul will scald like early morn’;

To Portugal’s breast my heart will progress,
Alone behind, beyond your eyes outshine
All jewels, and my heart hot from your breasts
By only sight, ____________

Only you my heart has, and when I come
To see your eyes again, we’ll soon be one;
And we’ll entwine

>>19235545
I'm saying that you lack even the most basic understanding of the fundamentals of computer science and that anyone who would begin to postulate that a computer is capable of doing any more or less to the digit than what the programmer tells it to do lacks the same.

>>19235545
Not the same anon, but sentience requires self-awareness by definition, because there can be no subjective experience without a POV, a self that experiences subjectively.

AI and machines are just a glorified game of billiards, where balls roll the way you knock them, as dictated by the laws of mechanics and have not a shred of subjective perception or investment in the process, cannot have.

>>19235568
>>19235572
Apply what you're saying to microbial life. If an intelligent species looked at microbes they would say it lacks a mind and would never be able to do anything other than what stimulated it, what it genetic programming would allow, etc. Minds emerged out of the primordial ooze just as a mind might emerge from a machine.

has anyone here ever tried to write a recap of his life? idk just for stress relief or something ,did it help?

>>19235582
Emphatically incomparable. Unlike life, humanity knows exactly whence came computers and how they work. (You) just don't.

>>19235582
But evolution isn't real anon

>>19235596
>humanity knows exactly whence came computers
Humanity knows? Or are you just claiming that your personal opinion is universal? Computation is just a general word for a program running through something, you can trace the word back to Ada Lovelace and earlier to the Kithara. It doesn't mean that those things are yet minds, but a machine might emerge with a mind given that new properties can emerge from separate properties, e.g., the mind emerges from the body or through evolutionary process.
>>19235604
>But evolution isn't real anon
Where did humans come from, in your mind, then?

>>19235589
I tried but ended up rambling about all sorts of random small things. The problem with writing about yourself is that you know way too much about the main character, which leads to all sorts of sidetracking. It was definitely fun, though. It's always good to understand yourself better.

>>19235607
>I tried but ended up rambling about all sorts of random small things. The problem with writing about yourself is that you know way too much about the main character, which leads to all sorts of sidetracking. It was definitely fun, though. It's always good to understand yourself better.
This. I just go into little detours and dead-ends when I write about myself. I won't publish it because some of it is cringy and confessional.

>>19235605
Do you even know where machines come from? When a mommy machine and a daddy machine love each other very much, daddy machine rams his DE-9 cord into mommy machine's serial port and in 9 months time a Mac Mini bursts out of her chassis?

>>19235619
I wanted to have a discussion about the possibility of minds in machines, but evidently /wg/ is incapable of it. I'll go to /sci/

>>19235625
Considering that the possiblity is zero and you're dumb for thinking otherwise, you'd be better off having your discussion on /a/, at least there's some kino anniemay with the albeit flawed premise.

>>19235638
>I watch anime and I think I know everything!
Ah, yes, what did I expect from this place? I've seen dozens of discussions on /sci/ about machines going beyond our current understanding.

Took me two seconds to find a discussion on it
>>/sci/13731989

>>>/sci/13731989

>>19235515
Thank you ShaelinWrites.

>>19235649
It's almost as if the kind of person who would want to post on the science board of 4chan is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about

>>19235665
Can you at least tell me your credentials so I can trust your opinion on that? Why do you think /lit/ is any different? I talked to graduate students on /sci/ who said computers can be made from black holes.

>>19235674
>a literal appeal to authority
(You) and sci were made for each other lol

>>19235678
So you're someone who never studied science trying to lecture me on scientific matters. Then you appeal to pointing out informal fallacies like a philosophy freshman.

>>19235680
>another appeal to authority

Keep this up and I'm posting another paragraph on cocks.

>>19235684
please do

>>19233807
>How does /wg/ prefer to write antagonists?
More environmental and detached from the protag in most cases. Like, he only get involved with them because he is in the area as opposed to them planning around the protag.

>>19235684
Did you have to post a cock paragraph in the thread with the Taylor OP? QED.

>>19235708
Yes.

>>19235500
>How do you come up with a title, anons?
I normally take a concept in the story and make it a title. For example, 'A Union of Seven Peaks' is a story I have planned that is about the unification of seven mountain kingdoms into one mega kingdom.

what's the longest continuous work you've written (it can be a novel series if you have one).

>>19235785
My Diary Desu: The Troubled Years 2003-2021

Seriously though it was a 200,000 word novel.

>>19235785
I had a 140k word manuscript. Now it's 137k. I'm finding it harder and harder to cut anything but it's still too long.
Send help

>>19235798
>Seriously though it was a 200,000 word novel.
Did anything come of it? That's pretty impressive.
>>19235801
>still too long
Maybe give it to a beta reader and see which parts are creating the most resistance or tension, then cut those out because they're dead weight.

>>19235804
>Did anything come of it?

No, it was long mainly because I wasn't really doing a good job of controlling myself. I wrote it when I was still very inexperienced and learnt a lot of things, but even I wouldn't actually read it.

>>19235804
I've had three people read it and all they had to say was
>it's pretty good, keep going!
One of them even asked me to expand on some things and describe people and places more.

>>19235808
Well if that's the response then it isn't too long and you're just worrying over it because you're likely a perfectionist. Try editing it one last time then send it out to agents if it's already getting resoundingly good feedback.
>>19235807
Can you tell me what you learnt? I only wrote about 20k words max but I felt like I just confused myself in the process.

>>19235830
The big lesson was to avoid unnecessary characters and subplots that don't actually do anything to serve the main plot in some logically sound way. There are all sorts of little things you learn when you have something to look at though. When writing it is important to always know the reason behind every little thing you write, which is sometimes easier once it actually exists on the page.

>>19235830
So what you're saying is I need more confidence.

>>19235843
Thank you! That's really helpful. I end up with so many digressions and it's so fucking awful now you mention it. I'll try to write linear stories for once...
>>19235844
Yeah, man. If you can write for an audience like that already, it is probably impressive and might win an agent over.

>>19234414
When I make "pure evil" supervillains, I still use moral gray area. What scares me more about villains is not when you know they're coming for you, it's when you don't know what they want and can't ascertain it if you tried.
>If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
>>19234432
This.

>>19235456
it's science fiction dude. about the same realm of believability that millions of years later we went from monke to computers, sure, computers could totally go to human.

>>19235456
could you at least tell me why it's bad instead of diagnosing my ass?

>>19235961
it's bad because it defies the convention that theses are supposed to amount to something and it makes the reader question the author's mental health

>>19235977
but like the other anon, don't I have room for shit to not be completely accurate because it's science fiction?

>>19235987
if you have to ask that you don't understand the genre of science fiction

>>19235990
Science fiction is speculative, Asshat.

>>19235992
the stock market is speculative; science fiction uses ridiculous hypotheticals to explore the human condition, more than just "wah my life is terrible therefore everyone should die"

>>19236000
>science fiction uses ridiculous hypotheticals to explore the human condition, more than just [gives hypothetical that explores the human condition[

>>19236003
also you completely misunderstood the replicant trope you stole from Blade Runner; your autism does not make you le higher evolved form of mankind, it makes you a genetic reject

>>19236008
>I think two people on the internet is the same person because I don't know how to use 4chan!
Get off, boomer.

>>19236011
don't defend mentally ill autists on the internet who aren't you then

>>19236015
Nah, you really need to go back to complaining on Guardian articles and browsing Facebook.

>>19236019
dumb nahposter

>>19236032

>>19236051

>>19235785
The web serial I've been writing for the past few years is 800,000 words at the moment. About to go over million before the end of the year.

>>19236166
Holy... Do you have any tips? Edit on the go or what?

>>19235785
It pales to the other guy but I've written 344k words so far on my sci Fi space opera webnovel since April 2020

>>19236166
Got a link though? Kinda curious desu

>>19236003
Well, what do you think about it then? The plot thing.

>>19234931
>>19236233
>automations
Try Automaton; it will give them a philosophical background that implies that humans look down on them, i.e., they think these robots have no minds.
>The story centers on an automation that believes it's a human, has memories of being one, but is treated as an object nevertheless. Every automation in the house of this woman believes they are her children. These children are designed to be the best in their artistic craft, and usually die as geniuses. The plot focuses on an automation that breaks out of the cycle of performing in his late 20s, realizes he is fully human, manages to escape, and seeks to completely destroy humanity by increasingly turning himself into an automation. He does so by removing bits of himself to make himself a weapon, freeing automation slaves, and incapacitating his ability to feel remorse
The plot seems kinda convoluted when you line it out as you have. I'm not saying the story won't be good but you need to have an A then B then C kinda structure. As it stands, you've only told me some of the background and I can't see where his remorse is becoming "incapacitated" unless he has to kill a lot of humans, which contradictions the fact he's some kind of Spartacus tier liberationist.
>>19235440
I recommend you read something about destruction (both exerted outwards and inwards) in something like Michael Kohlhaas by Heinrich von Kleist. It's got themes about revenge consuming oneself, which I think is a bit similar to yours. But you might want to ruminate more on anti-life sentiments, so pick up something on the topic, e.g., Sade quote:
>I abhor nature ... I should like to upset its plans, to thwart its progress, to halt the stars in their courses, to overturn the floating spheres of space, to destroy what serves nature and to succor all that harms it; in a word, to insult it in all its works, and I cannot succeed in doing so

>>19236171
>Edit on the go or what?

That's a sure path to a burnout.
I divided the story into episodes of manageable size, and wrote and edited them in advance so that I wouldn't plot myself into a corner and the quality would stay consistent. While posting one finished part, I'd move on to drafting the next one and so on. I also planned the parts so that I could end the story whenever I had to and not leave the readers hanging. Nothing special.

tl;dr: make a proper plan.

>>19236208
>Got a link
Sorry, I get enough spergs in the comments as is, don't need any more right now...

>>19235500
Same as others: I look for something in the book that describes part or themes of the story. Sometimes I really stall on the title, and sometimes it just comes to me.

>>19235500
Honestly titles have always just come to me. Usually a word or two that encompasses what a physical manifestation of whatever I've written would be

>>19235785
My three novel series is about 440,000 words all inclusive.

As promised, my book, Son of the Sun, is available on Kindle starting today. Unfortunately, due to some issues with Amazon, the free promotion won't start until tomorrow, but the link below should let you preview the first couple of chapters and see if you're interested.

If you like military fantasy, mythology, or ancient history, I hope that you take a look.

https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asin=B09J8HJJN8&preview=newtab&linkCode=kpe&ref_=cm_sw_r_kb_dp_YX3ZZ18WBP81PS4HA4EE

>>19236379
Congrats hope you sell a bunch

>>19236390
Thanks. I'll honestly be happy if I just get some decent reviews.

>>19236379
The first page threw me off a bit. There's a little too much use of "I". Also, I really wasn't sure what you were going with when you said "laughingly" but that might be me.

>>19236443
I hope it doesn't throw you off too much. I think that should calm down after the first bit of the book.

>>19236379
Cool cover page. Did you have it commissioned?

>>19236472
I did! The art is by Mark Smylie of Artesia fame

I just wrote an afterword. I feel pretentious but it is important, both to clarify things and to kind of mark my territory.
All i have left is cover design and printing. SELF PUB LIFE BABY!!
Actually i'm paying a lot of different people for this so i guess it's not really "self" pub... gotta spend money to lose money, amirite?

>>19236488
I always write short letters to my readers at the end of my books to give them an understanding of where I was at during the book writing process, as well as some insight into the book itself. Self pub life is the tits.

>>19236307
Is it any good?

>>19236515
I'd say it was an exercise in learning. By book 3 I had a strong grasp of character tie in to plot, but I still hadn't learned how to avoid excessive and cumbersome "plot" additions. It was also written entirely in present tense, so the prose was sharp. I like to think it's good, but I wouldn't call it great.

If the LA Lynch guy is here:

I took some time to read about thirty pages of Last Call, then skipped to the end. It has some potential, but at the same time feels... boring?... to get through because it's melodramatic and repetitive before it reaches the interesting parts. Alcoholic man self-destructs his family life, where haven't we seen that before? There's an entire two pages where someone just repeats something. It feels like you didn't know how to drive the story yourself so you had to make a lot of filler. You should've started the story when he gets the job at the golf course.

>>19236541
Link or nah?

>>19236638

Is that what happened? I read the "Look Inside" portion on Amazon, and couldn't figure out why he threw his career away in the space of a few minutes.

The family encounter, though, reminded me of my own psycho alcoholic father. Which, unfortunately for the author, made me not want to read any more.

>>19233807
I can't write villains to save my life so I made him Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, only he's an evil fantasy king and the female leads' grandfather. He doesn't achieve redemption, but I heavily imply his mind/sense of morality has been atrophied after years of imprisonment/exposure to dark magic.

Hello /wg/. I'm not sure if this is an appropriate thread for this but I've no idea where else to post it.
I've started writing a "humanity fuck yeah" style short story and am looking for feedback. I've never written a story before and english isn't even my native language so any constructive criticism regarding grammar, language, writing style etc. is welcome.
It's currently around 1600 words, and should be ~5000 words when done so fairly short as far as these go. It's hard sci-fi written from the perspective of a not-so-bright alien race declaring war on humanity. The part done so far is basically just the intro. The most interesting part of the story (in my opinion) comes after. Here's the story so far:
>https://pastebin.com/qQc9rqcc
I'm really not happy with the start (the first 2-3 sentences) but can't think of anything better.
Also are there other generals on 4ch where I can get feedback for a story like this? I know some hfy stories have been posted on /tg in the past but I don't see any threads there where this would be appropriate.

>>19236813
I'd just cut the first three sentences.

>>19236502
cheers! good luck and thanks for the (you). You made any bucks or just doing it for the sake of doing it?

>>19236379
I enjoyed this very much. It was like the historical adventure books I read when I was a kid. The only thing I can say is that "Son of the Sun" doesn't sound like a serious title and could put people off from reading it

>>19235500
My main series Saga of the Cosmic Heroes went through a number of names like Mobile Troopers when it was still have a focus on Mecha. A alternative title considered was War in the Stars which was a book subtitle for what was a concept of Mobile Trooper series. I also considered something like Records of the x/Romance of the x based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms but after the Mecha idea was dropped I stuck with the Saga title after reading and watching Saga of Tanya the Evil and Legend of the Galactic heroes, and I've considered it a homage to them. Sometimes I might shorten it to just Cosmic Saga.

There was also a short story I wrote that was about a lucid dreamer who's forced to write names into a tome so the names person dies, so I ended up calling it Psycho Writer. This was based on na dream I had, but I ended up not developing it into anything more than just a short 6k one shot though. There's another story title I thought up for a short called called 'Everyone Loves Mr. Skeleton!' but I haven't fleshed it out other than a concept though.

>>19236909
I'm glad to hear you say that -- the adventure feel is what I had hoped to capture when I was writing it. I admit the title is kind of cutesy. It just stuck in my head and so that's what I went with.

>>19234932
That was... surprisingly good? I liked how short it was, and I felt that it didn't overstayed its welcome, although I felt the ending to be kinda weak and random, a Lovecraft pulled out of your ass, so to speak.

Also, although that passage:
>this shielded him from the sun as a mother coddles a child
is very pretty and you should be proud of yourself, I felt like it was somewhat out of place when I first read it, and after I finished reading the story I felt the same. Maybe use it for another story where it would fit better?
Anyway, keep up the good work, anon.

Thoughts on this idea for a story?
>Over the course of a few days while traveling back home for his sister's wedding, a man starts to realize that he's in a trial. His entire life is nothing more than a bet between the gods. Does this reality even matter? Is he crazy? If not, what is he supposed to do? What is the purpose of this trial?

>>19237328
How do you feel about it? Would you read it based on the synopsis?

>>19237355
Too many questions

>>19236640
Maybe. It's hard because the book contains direct links to my author page with my face and family on it too. I think I'd rather make my debut here with a novel I'm more confident in anyways.
>>19236873
I've made like $60 total, aggregate over several years. I do it more for the sake of doing it. I'd very much like to have an agent and editor for my next foray.

>>19237328
So, a variant of the book of Job from the Bible?

>>19237328
It immediately reminded me of the Book of Job, where Job's life is destroyed by Satan. Satan made a bet with God that Job would curse God if his life was ruined. Job's friends could not comprehend that Job's suffering was due to anything other than Job's own sins. In the end, Job is restored for his faith, and his friends and Satan are rebuked. Did you have that in mind as a retelling of it, or does it go in a different direction?

I do not write poetry or fiction any longer. But this is something I wrote when I did. I do not think it is /good/ poetry but it is the best I've done or can do, and I wanted to share it. All the best to everyone pursuing their passion here. I hope it inspires someone because it did come from my heart. :) Do not let the world get you down because there is happiness to be found. <3 Anon.


If I would lose my eyes,
I wouldn’t mourn the mountaintops
Nor the oceans nor the sunsets,
Nor would I weep for the fireworks
And other splendours I would miss;
But I would cry that I might never set
My eyes upon yours, or upon your form,
Ever again.

And if I would lose my ears,
I would not despair for the songs of the birds
Nor the music of men I would never again hear,
And nor would it be calamity than I couldn’t listen
To the sweet river-sounds as they pass by, gentle,
When we’re together hiking in the greens and thistle;
But what would make me woe and step with sorrow
Would be that I couldn’t then sense
The nurturing bliss of the singsong you say
When you wake me up every morrow,
Future and past and today.

If my nerves numbed,
I wouldn’t care for the grasses I couldn’t grasp
And run thumb through, pull at and feel strong--
The seasons gone then without trace,
Indiscernible from others: Winter is Summer
And Fall Spring: crumbling leaves of the Autumn
Touch the same as fresh ones in June
When there's nothing of the digits left working.
Nor would I push my hands to my face
For the thrill of the winds I couldn’t ever feel
Or the ocean spray or drip of rain;
But I would regret the grains of your hair
I’d never again through pass my fingers
And have them flash electric passion:
The wheat-field strands of my dearest,
Who has so nourished,
Would never nurture so much again.

And if when I grow old I become demented,
I will lose all memories of my father and dear mother;
And I will forget everything of my childhood.
I will not remember the friends and enemies I had,
Nor the neighbourhoods I lived in;
Jobs and duties will be gone from my head,
And I will not have care or control left for anything.
I will drift away slowly, months and years through,
Until I am gone empty, days before the day of end,
And all I haven’t forgotten is you.

>2nd draft to check if things are working the way I want them too
>correcting all kinds of plot and characterization errors as well as unifying the mood
>2000 words of passages edited today so far
Bros I think I could get 8k done in a day if I keep at it. I really want to get to the 3rd draft and play around with words more.

>>19233753
>oneitis
Escape before you ruin your mental health.

>>19235167
I know Im late to the game, but you cant have a novel length discussion that doesnt involve story telling. People communicate via stories and memories and dissecrion thereof. So even if the characters are ostensibly in a room doing nothing, interesting people will talk about interesting things theyve done, which brings the story out of the room.

>>19237625
https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+stevens+moonshadow

>>19237786
Cat Stevens - Wild World is one of my mother's favourite songs. Maybe I listened to this before and appropriated it. Huh. Thank-you.

>>19237572
Different direction where the man is a god himself and must realize it or be doomed to die a mortal

>>19237797
Thank you for not getting angry with me for pointing out a possible inspiration.

>>19237829
Shades of "The Divine Invasion" by Philip K. Dick

>>19236269
thanks for the thoughts. yeah, that seems to be close to what I'm going for. He isn't just out to get humanity because he's out to get humanity, he's out to get those who are fucking automations up like he was, and that criteria applies to basically everybody. Also his own humanity to himself is insufferable as a bonus.
I think it makes sense, but hey I'm just an echo chamber.

>>19237371
good luck, friendo. At least you can say you're a semi pro, unlike most of us. Who are all pros of course.

Finished chapter three today. Was a redraft from the first. In the first draft I figure out the scenes, characters in the scene, and adhere it to the general end goal of the story I have in mind. Feeling out the scenes and telling myself the story in the present tense feels right for this. I then in the redraft redo everything in the past tense, but also make sure my writing is phonetically assonant per paragraph. Getting the phonetic assonance to work for a chapter is a very slow and methodical process, but I think what I lose in time I gain in word economy, and a general sense of flow from one paragraph to the next. After my editor goes over the redraft it should be very lean indeed.

I'm writing an absolute juggernaut of a story that'll probably take at least five books of 100k each to tell at minimum. I've spent literal years of my life figuring out the story, writing, re-writing, drafting and changing things up and starting over where I realised I fucked up. I can reincorporate the stuff I abandoned, since the scenes and characters are still good, just the prose and POV needs reworking, and of course it needs to all be phonetically a tool in my writing toolbox I didn't have before.

When I finish a chapter I record myself reading it. This takes about six or so attempts because I stop and start over if I need to fix anything with the flow. Listening back to a finished chapter and think 'yeah, this is at least competent enough to publish after a professional edit' is beyond satisfying. I'm very hard on myself when it comes to quality.

>>19237328
this is just fucking job

>>19238488
It's not the same type of god as the Christian god and it has nothing to do with testing faith. The more I think about it the less I like the idea. Most likely not going to do much with it

>reading "Journey to the End of the Night"
>subconsciously write the line "My journey goes to the end of the night"
God dammit, I like that line but I can't keep it. It's too obvious.

Is this sentence missing a subject?

One last thrash of a dying summer giving way to the frigged winds coming to sap what warmth was left.

>>19238811
It technically isn't (thrash is the subject), but it reads like it is due to the confusing tense choice. As it is, it's better as a dependent clause. Changing "giving" to "gave" or "gives" makes it independent.

I suck at writing and think I'm just gonna stop.

>>19238918
Post your writing

>>19238717
I wouldn't be that autistic about it. 99.9999% of people will never take that as a reference and anyone who does will get dismissed as a retard.
I've had really obvious references and influence go completely unnoticed while also being accused of ripping off things that I've never even heard of before.

>>19238928
The rain rattled against the metal roof, turning into a roar as the sound echoed through the street below. One last thrash of a dying summer giving way to the frigged winds coming to sap what warmth was left. The entire city would soon be bathed in the deep blue of an endless polar night. This winter was going to be long, dark, and most of all, cold. Zehra burrowed her face into her coat, shivering at the mere thought.

Or perhaps it was the frigid rain that had started dripping onto her shoulder. She looked up. The night sky flashed and boomed, revealing the source of the leak. A hole no bigger than a quarter had been cut into the roof. Its sides jagged and pealed back like a tin can.

>>19238811
this was mine too

Kinda just thinking I'll focus on my career instead.

>start story last month
>finish story last month
>start editing last month
>not even halfway done
>every time I finish a revision, 30 more errors pop up

Sucks being a bad writer.

>>19236379
Just finished it. Why did you choose the sun, mars, and the pole star in particular? I am assuming this story takes place sometime before the Trojan War because even in the Iliad the personalities of the Greek gods are established. Also it's not clear to me why the father would betray Androkles. Maybe I wasn't reading carefully enough but I don't think the father's jealousy was foreshadowed enough

>>19239325
They represented important aspects of the character and warfare that I was interested in focusing on.
Sun = leadership, excellence (aristeia), honor
Mars = unconscious aspects of warfare: luck, violence, etc.
Pole Star = conscious aspects of warfare: planning, foresight, organization, etc.

To your second point, I tried to establish his disapproval from the very first part of the book, but it's quite likely I neglected to flesh it out enough. One of the themes of the book, of which your example is one expression, is that people can get caught up in the rush of events around them, and make decisions they might not otherwise make if they were able to think clearly and unhurriedly -- and without the pressure and reliance of others weighing them down. Maybe I relied on that idea too much to explain that particular action.

>>19237192
Thanks, your words are very appreciated. That's a very sober assessment concerning the ending and I think I'll have to change the ending now.
>passage ... is very pretty and you should be proud of yourself, I felt like it was somewhat out of place when I first read it, and after I finished reading the story I felt the same. Maybe use it for another story where it would fit better?
That's a good idea. I think it did not fit the mood now that you mention it, as the darkness and shade is supposed to be slightly daunting and foreboding the mine. Thanks again for taking the time to tell me your impressions. It helps immensely.

last call for giving me dum rating for dum story
>>19234931
>>19235423
>>19235440

>>19239578
I like it, there are plenty of questions there to build on. The idea of turning yourself into more of a machine in order to prove your humanity is neat.

>>19239587
glad it isn't a complete dud lol

>>19239578
Might be cool. I'm also writing post-singularity scifi, but it's set at the "knee-of-the-curve" so the world still feels quite normal. I only deal with humans, enhanced humans, and Augmented Reality humans without a physical form.
What exactly is your protagonist's problem, and why do they hate being human? Is it because he was lied to, wants revenge or justice? Why would his identity matter and not just desire for autonomy (think "Robot Dreams" by Asimov where a robot imitates Moses. The I Robot movie alludes to that too)?
How is line between human and robot thin, yet there's a two tier society where robots are on the bottom? What helps people tell the difference, and how arbitrary is it?

fuck me you guys are stupid. stop coming to this thread and start reading

>>19239710
These types of posts are funny to me because I just spent the whole day off reading but I also know I'm not the one shitting up these threads. Most people on /lit/ do not read at all

>>19239718
I like writing much more than I do reading. Anon's correct, I am stupid.

>>19239710
I spent most of my day masturbating. Good enough?

>>19239710
I usually come to this thread because I tell myself to stop reading and start writing. Then I get frustrated and think that maybe 4chan will have some inspiration or advice.

Is Disco Elysium an example of a game that can be made by us novelists? Or was Kurvitz a one in a million chance of succeeding in that?
>Three years earlier, Kurvitz had helped Kender out of his own alcoholism, and, anxious to help his friend in turn, Kender went to Kurvitz with a proposal. "My kids were telling me, 'Stop writing books! No one reads books! You should get into video games,'" says Kender, so he suggested, why didn't they make a game set in this world Kurvitz had been creating?
https://www.gamesradar.com/the-making-of-disco-elysium-how-zaum-created-one-of-the-most-original-rpgs-of-the-decade/

How do I hide a matrix twist? Other people should know and interact with the person in the sim so I really don't know
Matrix was clear cut, Vanilla Sky was easy to explain but mine isn't
HELP ME CRONENBERG..

>>19239952
>Is Disco Elysium an example of a game
No.

Decided to put my historical fantasy book on hard hold until my fucking bowling book is done. I just have two God damn chapters left, I can do this shit aaaaaaaaaaaaa

I've had five whole for money episodes read on Kindle Vella. I've made 89 god damn cents off my sales.

I am a golden god.

>>19240079
Self-publishing doesn't work unless you already have a following.

>>19237654
How do you measure how many words you've edited?

>>19239643
The protagonists problem here is that he was treated terribly as an automation. What his mother does is collects automations to turn them into great artists, and that process involves practices that incite torture for mistakes, brainwashing, ect. He was effectively put into a waking coma from the age of 10 or so to his late twenties where he preformed as one of the greatest pianists the current world knew. He had friends, lovers and fans that he wasn't conscious of, and when he woke up, he realized his mother was long gone. That set him off to break out of the brainwashing and run off.
The difference between human and robot is a cellular level almost. They still have wires, they don't pump blood, but similarly have organs that they can't live without. Memories are editable, recordable, watchable ect. They're basically humans with more weaknesses, but unlike them can be upgraded to have more durability or whatnot than humans. But gaining access to that kind of cell changing equipment is the controlling factor, which is what Sam is after mostly.
Sam hates being human because of the pain he knows now that was due to one, for the pain he sees inflicted and how closely it relates to his own. He sees lives that could have been good get withered from the inside, destroyed externally, any way you can think of. In addition, his own personal ailments drive him. He can't sleep properly, his hands permanently look terrible, bruised and terrifying to him, guys' just peppered with being mentally fucked over. So he has this insane motivation to take people out one at a time. Sure he can tell the difference between a good and bad person, but society has progressed so hard that there isn't any left, so every time he bothers to look up, there wasn't a reason to check.
But yeah, honestly his identify matters only because of the pain he's in due to not having one for ten years. He has an entire life he never knew about, knows others die like this, and mourns the collective loss.

>>19240079
My paperback sold one (1) copy in August and somebody read almost 20 pages of the kindle edition (for free). We're all going to make it bros

Was thinking of writing a 1 or 2 act play based on one of Theseus's soliloquies in A Midsummer Night's Dream. Specifically the soliloquy in Act 5, Scene 1 about poets and their ability to make something from nothing (lines 13-18).

The idea I had was a man inherits some kind of art from some family but the art basically is alive and he interacts with it in a fantastical way (like a portal to a fantastical plane or something) and better appreciates artistic work. The idea is really rough but this was my starting point.

alright lads I really don't know where else to ask this but do you guys know where can I read copywriting examples other than swiped.co?
people say just join newsletters and email lists but I don't even know which ones I am very new to this

>>19239710
it's funny isn't it? i'm pretty sure about 90% of these "writers" don't even like books and they've only picked up writing as a fallback from trying to make videogames, which unlike typing nonsense into microsoft word they're too stupid to figure out how to even start

>>19240915
Feels good to be part of the 10% I guess

>>19240915
Creative writing is just something I cannot stop doing, even if it costs a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Books, to me, are the most important form of information technology that we still have. People aren't going to get rid of them because we have websites and video games now. I think saying 90% of people don't like books here is very much a sweeping statement.

>>19240988
if people here liked books they would presumably read them, and if they did then their prose wouldn't be so turgid. the biggest problem of pretty much everyone here is that they have no "ear" at all and that's something you develop by reading. like, i don't even see anything in this thread so i just went to the last one and this is the first thing i found, from some guy's royal road:

>Unless otherwise accustomed like me, these sands would often request you wear some glasses every time you go outside. But I preferred the inside, where less of it got in my eyes and under my skin. If I wasn’t careful on my irresponsible ventures outside lacking a jacket, the grains would dig inside and produce air bubbles all across my arms. I could watch them dissolve or float to the top of the blue surface all day, but there was work that I was paid to do instead. Or at least, there was.

sorry random dude from last thread, but everything about this is busted. if you read, this should make you bleed from the eyes. people here don't read. maybe they only "like" books from a distance

>>19241096
I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

>>19241096
Yeah that is stilted but I posted my work here and I hope I read enough. I’ve read 112 books in 20 months.
Here’s my prose:
>>19234932

>>19234932
>>19241186

>>There was once a miner in the middle of two mountains; he walked to work every day with his pick axe and other tools. One day, the miner found that the birds were louder than usual as he went for his morning walk to work. His shadow mingled with the darkness cast by the canopies of the forest; this shielded him from the sun as a mother coddles a child. But in that darkness, he heard the shrill notes of canaries and blue jays.

"A miner once lived in the forests between two mountains"
"Every morning he walked up the slopes, with his pickaxe and toolbelt."
"One morning, the birds were louder than usual"
"His shadow mixed and blurred with the shadows of the trees . . . and in that darkness he heard shrill notes of canaries and blue jays"

>>Bemused, the miner looked up into the branches, squinting to see the birds; he called out: “It sounds as though you’re all in pain, as if under immense strain?”

'Bemused' is technically correct, but you could phrase this better.

>>He shook his hand, understanding little from the birdcalls. Why, indeed, did those birds sing under such strain? They puffed their chests; high-pitched sounds emitted from their beaks; those little birds sang until it sounded like they would hurt themselves.

Did he shake his hand or his head?
It sounds like he doesn't understand anything about the birdcalls.
"They puffed their chests, high chirps (something better than emitted, maybe shot) from their beaks; the birds sang until he thought they would hurt themselves"

>>But the miner soldiered on; there was little he could do, except maybe call out to the birds or throw a stick into the branches to get them to fly away. The birdies chased him, nevertheless; they followed him all the way to the mines. When the man wanted to go inside to work, he was followed by a particularly loud canary.

"soldiered on" doesn't fit
"What could he do, except call back, or throw a stick. . ."
Use "birdies" before this if you want to use it here, or change to "birds"
Omit "nevertheless"
"A particularly loud canary followed him all the way into the mine"

>>The minuscule canary continued its birdsong, hovering above his head like a halo; the man stood at the mouth of the mines with crossed arms. Then the bird chattered more in his ear with loud noises; that was until the man swatted it away with his hand.

"The little bird continued its birdsong, hovering around his head like a halo"
"mouth of the mine"
"The bird continued its chatter until he swatted it away" with his hand could stay or go

>>19234932
>>19241186
>>19241377

>>The man descended into the inner intestines of the mines, starting from the orifice that opened to the world. There were the bird noises behind him but they simmered into quiet as he pressed on further, further into the black perdition of the mine. The tunnel before him coiled from one direction to the other; he felt dizzy going through this maze; this labyrinth was like some subterranean giant’s stomach and innards.

"The man descended into the inner intestines of the mines" rewrite this
"starting from the orifice. . ." omit this
"The (song, calls, chirps) simmered into quiet. . ."
"black perdition" omit black
Mazes and labyrinths are not the same thing
"The tunnel coiled from one direction to the other, dizzying him in that dark labyrinth, like an earthen giant's innards"

>>But Lo, in that darkness something emerged; twittering and chattering emanation rose as noxious gaze on a battlefield.

"a twittering and a chattering rising ahead of him and filling the (walls/tunnels) and choking him like the noxious dead after a battle"

>>The miner, without a light, strained to see but to little avail. But flames erupted before him, giving light to a maddening horror of great magnitude. There were licking flames that rollicked across his skin; he cried out in agony. Before him was a ten-foot-tall giant bird with fiery breath.

"Licking" and "rollicked"
"Agony" isn't exactly right here, "Cry out in pain" or "He was in agony"
"The flames rollicked across his skin and he cried out in pain"

>>19241439
>>"Licking" and "rollicked"
Didn't notice that I didn't finish the line, "Licking" and "Rollicked" don't mesh

>>19240518
That makes more sense. Still, is there anything that makes him struggle to decide to go on the revenge quest or is it immediate? Surely his mad plot is refuted in some way, or there is a consequence for him attacking people. Perhaps the consequence is the price he paid himself to get revenge, by removing his humanity further? If there's no way to go back, that regret could be a steep price and I could see how tragically no one could talk him out of it.
Also if you've ever read Paycheck by Philip K Dick or seen the movie, consider also that the job he was tasked to do for all those years isn't all that he did. While your protagonists has tons of fans he knows about, it's possible he also made many enemies.

>>19239989
>how do I hide a twist
If a twist strays from promises to the reader, you will make readers upset even if its a surprise. You could write that twist, look at the emotions of the protagonist and themes of the scene, then put these in your intro and spend the rest of the book building other kinds of expectations. Make the reader think those emotions and themes point to something else, or try to point at other themes altogether as being the "reality" of his situation. That way you can subvert expectations while still gracefully coming full-circle. You can tease the possibility of your twist merely by word association married to those emotions. If I was telling a story about a simulation I would do something like this:
>protag is whittling some wooden figure when they are startled by someone who forms his goal for the inciting incident
>focus on the new goal, but sparingly go back to the whittling
>don't let him get surprised out of it, but readers may remember the shock anyway
>begin to associate the whittling with his goal before the twist; maybe protag cares about someone or something and the figure represents that
>when the twist happens, the protag is shocked in the same way and abandons his previous goal like the wooden figure it is and engages the real world

Also, necessity is the mother of invention. If you can't figure out how your protagonist can be engaging both the physical and virtual world simultaneously, imagine there's a way that it's possible. Perhaps the simulation technology doesn't use your whole conscious but instead expands your subconscious for the additional tasks. Much like once you master driving a car, many details are unconscious. If you pilot an FPV drone, you begin to feel like you are the drone yet still aware of your own body.

>>19241377
>>19241439
>>19241445
Thanks for adding your own corrections, I think yours reads a little easier and gives relevant information. Maybe I had an issue of writing myself into the work rather than having it planned out from the get go. Also, thanks again, for taking the time to point out what needed omitting or which were basically redundant or confused.

>26 days has been the longest time it has taken for any publisher to get back at me so far
>it has now been 26 days with no contact from the four I'm waiting on
The wait is killing me. Even a rejection feels like a relief.
Tell me bros, how do you make a manuscript appealing to a publisher? How do you sell someone on it? How do you make a snappy opening that will ensnare the reader?

>>19241934
Be a trans bipoc

>>19241942
I cannae do that, laddie!

My book, Son of the Sun, is now free to download until October 21st. It's currently in the top 30 free kindle books for both war fiction and myths & legends.

If you have time today, please take a look, and consider leaving a rating or review if you like what you read.

>>19242164
But I don't have a kindle

>>19242183
There's a kindle app for your phone, if you have one.

>>19242191
My phone is not the kind that uses "apps". It has sudoku in it though.

>>19242183
You can read it online with the Cloud Reader.

>>19242164
Posting with the actual link to the book:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09J8HJJN8

>>19233807
i like to make my antagonists more relateable and arguably more morally correct than the protagonist.

>>19242259
>>19242265
Alright, I grabbed it. I may or may not review it sometime this month or some other month by the end of the year.

>>19242370
Thanks. I hope you enjoy it

>>19240694
>newsletters and email lists
any. it's all copy. literally search for anything, click on the first three links and sign up for their news letter.

>>19242164
I'm through 20% of it. It's not my genre, and the pacing is a bit slow for me, but on the other hand, I have yet to find any spelling or grammar mistakes, which is very unusual (in my experience) for a self-published book.

Hopefully I'll finish it soon & write you a review. It's likely to be a good review.

>>19242940
That's good to hear, thank you. I hope you enjoy the rest of it -- the pace should pick up fairly soon if you are where I think you are in the book.

>>19241454
Yeah, I plan on inserting some sort of human connection he has that becomes a bother, like a stalker or something that keeps preventing his plans. And yeah, the implied consequence is that he's removing his humanity and his independent will at the same time. Once he crosses a threshold, he can't go back and becomes something just running off a program, unless something intervenes. It's through that process that he realizes there are innocents.
There's also a character in the background that's trying to stop him actively, but is on his side, so that makes both ways of it difficult enough.

>>19241572
Thanks for the advice anon, solid stuff. That you mentioned about teasing it from the beginning while misleading and constructing is pretty good, I've also been trying to justify all things but my problem comes from either not knowing to let go of an idea or just being inexperienced with these themes, my protagonist has NO physical world at all, merely virtual and I thought to start with this upfront but not only does it become unrelatable to some, which isn't that big of a deal, the real issue is that you don't get the same dissonance as I hoped to capture.

>>19239643
Can I hear your idea? Kinda wanna know what yours does after you briefly described it.

I'm beginning to believe that the best kinds of horror has some kind of sexual element to it, specifically of the BDSM variety.
Not to be confused with making horror with sexually explicit tones in mind, but having an antagonist employ methods that take control away from the protagonist(s) and violate them in ways they cannot initially resist against.
Anyone else feel like this is the case?

Is it a beginner's mistake to start philosophical fiction with a sort of theoretical monologue, like Notes from the Underground? Is it better to have thought kind of interwoven to the story, like Nausea or the Stranger?

>>19243194
A super AI designed to kill almost all people instead saves everyone. The protagonist yearns for self after the betrayal in his wholly dystopian life. He cannot believe the promises offered in the new utopia are sincere. Characters around him begin to improve while he struggles to be the man he planned to be. Despite his lack of evidence that the AI is pernicious, he finds a more simple life without it. After the opportunity is gone forever, he is vexed with envy and doubt for the rest of his life.

There's a number of characters that tie into his experience, but the main idea for this is a utopia where people transcend the hallmark weakness of humanity: forgetfulness, envy, and death. The price for this is the deletion of and rebuilding of the ego as it melds with the AI. It is not a future of extreme pluralism or extreme uniformity. It is a future that re-establishes nations, culture, and personal identity. People learn to accept themselves without dramatic transformation. Even the world religion has different flavors in each country. Part of the allure of it is the comforting normalcy (pic related is location for one scene), and I paint it as being a good thing and not a drab uniformity. This really all comes down to an evil that does not threaten your security, but instead threatens your self-actualization. Also yes, it's Revelation.

I've started copying NisiOIsiN's writing style and I think I have never had this much fun writing in a while. However, now my writing is mostly lacking in literary quality. I'm not sure how to proceed here.

>>19243822
I think you'd be better off by interweaving it into the narrative. It keeps the reader more engaged by forcing them to read subtext. The more straightforward you are the harder it is to retain someone's attention. You need to tempt them and make them question what they're reading.

>>19243764
The best horror invokes a feeling of helplessness, leaving the characters powerless before something they can't begin to understand.
I suppose rape and sexual humiliation can play a factor in that, but the core aspect is the lack of agency.

>>19243764
The submission to a powerful opponent is hardcoded into our psyche as something undesirable and anxiety inducing. All horror is based on being powerless before a threat, be it physical (like an aggressor), psychological (being unable to cope with a bad situation), even philosophical (confronting a reality you cannot comprehend or escape, such as the idea of death). So yeah, you are correct in the basis of your argument, but I don't think it necessarily has to be of a sexual nature. That seems more of your personal take on horror rather than the all-encompassing reality.

>>19243822
>>19243866
This, there was an ESL anon that posted his book on /lit/ outside of /wg/ and the first two chapters waxed philosophic. I think it was detrimental to spill so many ideas too soon instead of briefly capturing the emotion. Instead, the intro should pay more attention to the mood of the story and themes that dominate the story. Mix the familiar with the unfamiliar to hook your reader in the first dozen sentences. You should first establish the way things are, such as character desires, conflicts and the inciting incident. The beginning could even be philosophical status quo. Then you will have good motivations for your characters to start exploring the new philosophies.

If you have long, complicated paragraphs then it will start slowly. Stay aware of your pacing at the intro.

>>19243866

That's probably true. Thank you.

>>19243929
You're welcome; that's what we're here for. Keep up the good work and don't be afraid to question your decisions.

>>19243925

Thank you as well.

>>19243764
I think a bigger aspect is hopelessness, which can play into rape issues, but I don't think the same feeling has to be sexual at all. I'm trying to think of my favorite horror themes, and they all tend to involve something more than human but also unknowable, but you're also at their mercy, and they'll fuck you figuratively if you do the wrong thing. Maybe that comes from some kind of evolutionary fear of parental abuse.

Later today, after bed, I write my daily 2k, gonna make it bros.

>>19244298
same except i figured out that my pace is about 500 words per hour, which means if i write 2000 words then i only wrote for 4 hours per day. and if i keep that pace up then i can only get 14,000 words per week. and if i want to finish a novel it'll take between 8-10 weeks to get it done. and that's just the rough draft. it could take that same amount of time to get a presentable manuscript ready.
in other words, 2000 words isn't enough if you want to get done in a timely manner. im going for 4000 words. 8 hours. double time lads, let's go.

I finally cracked the setting for my story. It's a modern setting superficially, but it'll get weirder than a Stephen King / David Lynch story combined. I'm going to start writing short stories that are all in the same setting. Then progress to novellas in the same setting (cross overs of previous characters occurring much more). All leading up to the conclusive series that will feature the most interesting characters from the short stories and novellas coming together into one cohesive group, reaching a dramatic conclusion.

The whole thing is a means of finding a way to tell absurd stories but to have it all mean something in the end, and to be meaningful in the present. The main goal is to always have the main character of interest becoming more nuanced and interesting.

>Short story introduces the basic concept of the character.
>Novella fleshes out the character much more.
>Novel which features the character (and others of the same calibre) goes into even more depth, getting the character as close to fully nuanced as I can manage.

Its essentially a writing endeavour of never letting the main characters of interest stagnate. Like a fighting tournament except character nuance and depth is what counts as a 'win' whilst other characters are left behind if they fail to make the cut.

>>19244353
Sounds great. There's a time to be realistic, but sticking to "rule of cool" works wonders. I don't know if I'd ever decide on a consistent setting. I tend to go with a setting that would best tell a story even if I'm not used to it yet.

>>19243038
Indeed, it did.
I've just begun chapter 14, and finally, I found something to correct. Well done on such tight grammar!

"Our city fathers chose (to choose) a path of readiness" - may I suggest cutting out the part enclosed in parentheses.

Help! My chapters are getting shorter and shorter, is as if I lost the will to continue this story. I'm at 30k words, and i think minimum for a book is 50k, But shit I can't write an additional 20k worth of words

>>19245380
Write it as long as it needs to be, but I feel ya.

>>19245380
>i think minimum for a book is 50k
Make your story whatever length it needs to be. If you feel like you’re padding it for no reason you’re probably padding it for no reason.

>>19245380
Remember, there's no need to write linearly.
Feel free to skip around.
Feel free to go back and further develop some of the ideas.
Feel free to take a break, to let yourself recharge, to get some distance from the work. I find that a good way to get new ideas.

>>19245418
Write from the middle

>>19234931
Take a crack at the idea. Work on an outline, maybe start a draft, see where it goes. There's only one way to tell if its worth while.

>>19245346
Good.
Yes, that is an awkward construction. I think I will definitely take your suggestion.

Is it worth going to a university, and paying some guy in the writing lab $200 bucks to proofread my book?

>>19243860
How'd you do that? All those puns and shit?

Instead of writing, I made this sweater based on some classic /lit/posting.
I just want to kill this writers block, instead I make shirts. Fuck me.

what the fuck is anime writing? the over use of "awwooos" and disappearing and going "NANI?!"

>>19245627
https://hercule-campus.creator-spring.com/listing/new-with-a-car-you-can-go-any
Link BTW

>>19245641
Genre fiction

>>19245641
I don't know, but I guess it also includes really boring poorly developed characters, sometimes with an edge backstory. Villains who are sympathetic and have goofy tragic backgrounds. And surprise twists that aren't a surprise in any way, but you're supposed to still be surprised when it happens for absolutely no reason.

>>19245641
If it's after 1950~1970s then it's anime basically. Most of the high-horse boarders here are only interested in classics so to them everything is cringe.

I was starting to worry that my designs for fantastical creatures would be too chuuni for a serious work but then I remembered biblically accurate angels

>>19233736
Do you live so you have something to write about, or write so you have something to live for?

>>19245743
Yes.

Should I pay for professional feedback? I don't know anyone who has any valuable input on my work as a whole.

>>19245850
what about us

>>19245856
You guys don't write so....

>>19245856
You guys don't speak my language.

>>19245641
A collection of very specific tropes and characters together with the use of a very dull first person narrator.

why are you motherfuckers INSISTING upon being STUPID? READ A GODDAMN BOOK INSTEAD OF SHITTING UP THIS THREAD

>Writing a short story
>compare it to a short story I wrote a year ago
>It's way better
feeling good bros, we are all gonna make it

>>19245896
>/lit/
>reading books
Next you're going to say we write.

Francis watched as Jerome continued to berate Latrell. The northerner screamed loudly that it wasn't possible to ignore. Francis sat on his rock amused at the sight he saw. A black man in his petticoat and shiny leather shoes tirelessly screamed and insulted another black man in white linen tatters dragging a sack of potatoes to the carriage sitting on the dirt road.
"Hurry up ya god damn nigger!" screamed Jerome, "use your big black ass and make yourself useful already. God damn we should've just left you in the cotton fields."
"Yes'em Jerome, but why you got to scream all da time? I working as fast as I can ya kno'" explained Latrell.
"Did I say you can talk nigger? Hurry the god damn hell up already!"
Francis snickered at the commotion caused by the two men.
"What 'chu lookin' at honky?"
"Why you yellin' at him for? He's gitting the work done and as far as I can tell, we got two niggers on this road right here."
"I ain't no god damn nigger you god damn honky! I'm a freedman. I killed at least 100 of you Dixies with these bare hands. Don't you ever call me a nigger like that cotton-picker right there or you're going to end up being number 101. Understand?"
"A Lincoln nigger. That's all you'll be. Can't even treat your own kindly."
"He ain't my kind and how about yourself? Using John Chinaman over there as your own servant. Can't live without em slaves huh? First the injuns, then these niggers, and now the Chinamen. You god damn Dixies haven't got a workin' bone in your body. Go back to Kentucky and copulate with your mammie so she can give you a sister Dixie," Jerome shouted, "And nigger move already!"

Anyone good with vernacular of the 1870s? I'm trying to copy Twain's local dialect, but I can't seem to get the "Northern Freedman" dialect correctly.

>>19245970
I also should put in a line where Francis observes that Jerome is blacker than Latrell. That would be funny.

I’ve been trying to emulate a small handful of my favorite authors in short story form but I despise every idea I come up without exception. It’s not the writing. The idea is just dull and stupid and cliché. I’m frustrated.

>>19245920
Glad to hear that anon. Keep grinding at it and you will make it far.

>>19246040
write it dull stupid and cliche. Too many people keep trying to find something revolutionary, but I always felt there's a niceness to reading something familiar. Besides what was once old will be new again.

>>19245889
>>19245681
>>19245668
>>19245666
shooting for limbs here but, would you consider this to be anime writing?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A7xDXOgqMkbx1dOQOrFNDWVB5PRaOa0XauO3hLuXRmI/edit

>>19245889
So you're saying that my literal fanfiction (that is too good for what it is and I'll probably see to getting it licensed) that crosses series toggether to provide new perspectives to explore unappreciated aspects of characters and how their views reflect on the world at large is not anime writing?

>>19245850
>>19245867
>I need advice
>Teehee I don't need YOUR advice, you guys are STUPID
:(

>>19246062
I'm a bit conflicted. Some points it's not bad, other times you do full stop one word paragraphs one times too many. Just fast skimming through it; could do with some dialogue tags at certain points.

Do you guys stick to one story to add onto daily or just write whatever you want to daily?

>>19246058
I just want to like what I write.

>>19245889
>>19245681
>>19245668
>>19245666
oh also any thoughts on this? >>19240518
I'm just coming back to this general after having been away for a fair bit so I'm kinda desperate for advice before I sink into a book again and take up an exorbitant amount of time
>>19246099
thanks anon. I keep forgetting dialogue tags, gotta watch out for that shit

>>19246109
Been writing only one story since last year. I wouldn't have the time to juggle more than one project at a time, particularly when I barely have the motivation to write daily for it in the first place.

>>19246040
I'll let you license some of my IP and you can write an expanded universe story for my work that will never get written
Alternatively you could write about gay cowboys who must finish a cattle drive in spite of an ongoing alien invasion

>>19246062
Why are you worried about this being anime writing? Did someone tell you it was or is there a specific part that you personally think is anime writing?

Would Disney allow me to write a book about Scrooge McDuck beating up Commies?

>>19246129
well ya see, it's called having zero self confidence

that aside, it's mostly because I used to write the equivalent of a meh YA novel about a year ago and this place absolutely got on my ass for it. I also didn't read. So I turned that shit around to try to make something good and also just start reading better things. So I'm on the lookout for being anime, not necessarily thinking that I'm quite there.
I have a generally poor self perception. This sucks when writing.

>>19246117
>juggle more than one project at a time
I've feel the same way. It's just that I am shifting away from "goal-based" writing where I'm trying to finish stories and more on "process-based" writing where I just enjoy the process of writing. I just wanted to know what others were doing.

>>19246129
i should also note that I do not think anime writing is BAD, I just want to write something with pretty prose and a good plot. I'm not looking to be great or a classic or any high tier whatchamacallit. Just acceptable and enjoyable. Pretty.

>>19246146
That's fair enough. Nothing in the parts I read feels anime at all.

>>19246158
neato. victory. now I just need to get my fucking plot out of the mire

>>19246040
I used to have this problem as well. The truth is you can make any idea interesting if you write it well enough. Just keep practicing

>>19246062
I'll be honest with you. You need to start reading WWWWAAAYYYY more books. Your writing feels very dry and even though you're trying to describe a setting, it's dull and monotonous. You rely a lot on repetition, but there are better ways to showcase frustration and dedication without repeating the same phrase or words 5 times. The first time it's okay, but you keep doing it. I skimmed to about page 8 and page 14 and I see this device used constantly.

Also some of your dialogue is anime writing. Max responds with one word all the time like a moe anime girl. Your use of fragments also reminds me a lot like anime writing.

Don't feel bad that I'm harping on you, and I'm sure there's someone here that likes it. But your story about a piano man just wasn't for me.

>>19246062
I'm not reading the whole thing but I read the page and it's actually pretty good and not anime but there are some weird lines in there. For example:

>Nowhere, being the faces that looked back at him, all dark in their faces and skin and expressions.

"faces" being repeated twice in a single sentence is repetitive and takes me out of the story

>>19246176
ah shit I honestly forgot to take that faces out. thanks for catching
>>19246174
ah yeah, could be true depending on where you were. were you at the part where he returned and his throat was fucked up? Short clipped lines were trying to emulate the fact that he could only get a few words out at a time. If that's where you read it would help let me know that wasn't super clear.

>>19246129
>Why are you worried about this being anime writing?
Because no one here writes and everyone here is just trying to larp.

https://pastebin.com/YYz23VLf

>>19246355
wait pastebin blocks it even if it's private
how do you guys share anything on pastebin anymore?

need book reccs that have good writing when conveying emotion

>>19246376
Just write

Just discovered this gold
>F Gardner has been shilling on 7chan since last year

>>19246386
i don't convey emotion well, need examples

https://justpaste dot it/8rb46

i hate people that say depression makes you a better writer. all it does is make you a shitty one, void of external experiences, and motivationless for writing at all.

>>19246807
External experiences have never been a prerequisite for great writing.

>>19246827
yeah they have or you end up with shit like Das Kapital

>>19246895
Das Kapital is one of the most important literary objects in the 19th century, though?

>>19246097
I don't think you're stupid, anon. You just literally cannot speak my language.

Son of the Sun is now #1 in free Amazon War Fiction. Thanks to anyone who downloaded it!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09J8HJJN8

>>19247582
Congratulations

>>19247582
Based. Best wishes writan fren.

>>19244319
>in other words, 2000 words isn't enough if you want to get done in a timely manner
I have finished 3 volumes of my story so far this year. Gonna finish a fourth one soon and maybe start a fifth and all on a mostly 2k daily goal.

>>19247582
>not anime
sry in /wg/ we only read and write anime but mostly we do neither

How the fuck do I polish a turd?

>>19247851
a little bit of water and a lot of patience

>>19247851
Why do people come in these threads with no knowledge whatsoever and ask for advice? The internet and libraries are full of books on how to write as is the original post. You wouldn't need to ask "How to polish a turd" you need to ask how to write a book. Did you know that your first draft is just the first and you will have to do at least three editing rounds?

>>19247851
By understanding that you’re allowed to stop polishing after a certain point. 99% of people are more than willing to eat shit.

>>19247851
Mythbusters tried it.

>>19247896
>you need to ask how to write a book
Anon you moron, anyone can write a book. Writing a book is easy. Turning the book you've written into something a publisher is willing to accept is like 9/10ths of the work.

>>19247638
>>19247653
Thanks guys

>>19247940
Of course any retard can write a meaningless stack of paper, but I'll call it a proper book when a publisher is ready to accept it. There are exceptions to this rule but none of use fit it.

>>19247914
But 99% of people don't decide what gets published, a very small number of people get to decide that.

>>19247950
If you’re only writing to get published then you’re already broken.

>>19247962
That's a nice platitude but it will never get you anywhere

>>19247972
Sounds like projection from someone who never got anywhere.

>>19247962
>If you’re only writing to get published then you’re already broken.
What does this even mean. The vast majority of people write with the end goal of getting published or publishing the book themselves. Almost no one write just for the pure enjoyment of the writing process

>>19247994
I don’t know of many people here who would consider self publishing to be getting published.
Anyone can throw their book on Kindle as long as it’s not just rape and racism.

Saying that you write for your own pleasure only is the biggest writing cope.

>>19247987
Touché